Episode 193: The Things We Can’t Say In The Comments

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pillow Talks Episode 193: "The Things We Can’t Say In The Comments"

Hosts: Vanessa & Xander Marin
Release Date: January 30, 2025
Platform: QCODE

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 193 of Pillow Talks, hosts Vanessa and Xander Marin delve into the challenges of interacting with their audience through social media. They reflect on feedback from a past raw, personal episode where they discussed the difficulties of engaging with listeners beyond podcast platforms. This episode aims to bridge the gap between their social media presence and the more in-depth conversations available on their podcast.

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2. Social Media vs. Podcast Interactions

Vanessa (00:37):
"Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had."

The Marins express their appreciation for social media feedback but highlight the limitations of these platforms in facilitating meaningful, nuanced discussions. They emphasize that the podcast allows them to explore topics in greater depth, something that social media's brevity often hinders.

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3. Role Playing Controversy

a. Overview of the Controversy

The episode centers around a controversial social media post where Vanessa and Xander conducted a role-playing skit based on a listener's question from a previous podcast episode titled "Am I being reasonable or Ridiculous?" The question involved a husband asking his wife to role-play her best friend sexually, which sparked significant backlash online.

Vanessa (06:05):
"Oh, thank you so much for this great review. Okay, so let's get into it. I figured that we had to start with the role playing your friend controversy."

b. Public Reaction and Backlash

The skit quickly garnered anger from viewers who perceived it as "rage bait" meant to provoke engagement through controversy.

Xander (04:14):
"But before we do that, let's get into our review of the week..."

Despite initial confusion and accusations of editing mistakes, it became clear that the hosts genuinely held the opinions expressed in the skit, leading to intensified criticism.

Vanessa (07:47):
"You’re just doing this to get, like, rage bait. You’re just doing this for engagement, just to get people upset and angry."
(00:00)

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4. Exploring Consent and Fantasies

a. Fantasy vs. Reality

The Marins discuss the thin line between harmless fantasies and actions that might infringe upon someone's consent. They emphasize that while fantasies are private and not regulated by consent, acting them out, especially involving real individuals without their permission, can be problematic.

Vanessa (16:00):
"Do other things. Like, you know, maybe try talking dirty a little bit... Is she comfortable talking dirty about other people?"
(16:00)

Xander (20:13):
"That is violating. That's not okay. Like that would be horrible."
(20:13)

b. Ethical Considerations

They highlight ethical dilemmas where fantasies involving real people without their consent cross into inappropriate territory, potentially harming relationships and reputations.

Vanessa (21:33):
"We all fantasize about people... whether sexually or non-sexually. We don't have control over that. So I think probably the majority of people have masturbated thinking about somebody without asking for their explicit consent."
(21:33)

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5. Viral Reel Discussion

a. Description of the Viral Reel

A spontaneous reel featuring Vanessa dancing at her desk after having sex with her husband went viral, amassing over 20 million views. The reel sparked varied reactions, with many critiquing its appropriateness and others appreciating the candidness.

Vanessa (23:21):
"It was literally me doing a dumb little dance, heart and soul on the piano."
(23:21)

b. Public Criticism and Defense

Some viewers felt the content was inappropriate for public sharing, while others raised concerns about professional repercussions. The hosts addressed these criticisms by explaining the context of their roles as sex therapists and the nature of their content.

Vanessa (24:21):
"What's this all about? But they tap through and it's like, sex therapist. It makes immediate sense if you just take that one little action."
(24:21)

Xander (25:21):
"It's our company. Number two, this is the topic that our company deals in."
(25:21)

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6. The 'Fuck First' Rule

a. Explanation of the Rule

Inspired by Dan Savage, the 'Fuck First' rule encourages couples to prioritize intimacy earlier in the day rather than delaying it until they are tired or distracted in the evening.

Vanessa (28:00):
"What Xander and I have come to recognize is like the idea is prioritizing intimacy earlier in the day."
(28:00)

b. Adapting for Parents

The hosts address concerns from parents about implementing this rule amidst the chaos of parenting. They offer practical solutions such as scheduling alone time when children are at school or with grandparents.

Vanessa (40:53):
"If you're a parent and you're kind of curious about trying the fuck first rule, but it feels a little complicated to you, we want to give you some tips..."
(40:53)

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7. Turning Down Partners Without Hurting Feelings

a. Old vs. New Communication Styles

Vanessa and Xander contrast traditional, often dismissive ways of declining intimacy with healthier, more considerate communication techniques.

Vanessa (47:10):
"So instead, what you could do is maybe there's a different time earlier in the day that you could prioritize."
(47:10)

b. Handling Emotional Responses

They emphasize the importance of acknowledging a partner's vulnerability when initiating intimacy and responding with empathy rather than cold excuses.

Vanessa (52:09):
"You're allowed to say no whenever you want for whatever reason you want, for no reason whatsoever."
(52:09)

Xander (53:18):
"You are an equal part of that problem."
(53:18)

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8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Vanessa and Xander encouraging listeners to engage thoughtfully on social media and prioritize healthy communication in their relationships. They reiterate the importance of mutual respect, understanding, and the ability to navigate conflicts constructively.

Vanessa (59:32):
"It's just so sad because I'm like, that's literally what our account is here for."
(59:32)

Xander (60:15):
"You are not owed sex. You're never owed sex."
(60:15)

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Notable Quotes

1. Vanessa (00:00):
   "You're just doing this to get, like, rage bait. You're just doing this for engagement, just to get people upset and angry."

2. Xander (08:23):
   "Yeah. Because we go into it in a lot more detail."
   (08:23)

3. Vanessa (17:41):
   "We got to go there in our ads, too."
   (17:41)

4. Xander (49:06):
   "What's this really say is, ugh. Like, that. That, like, feels. Well, it feels hard..."
   (49:06)

5. Vanessa (60:30):
   "You are all deserving of intimacy, but you're not owed sex. You're never owed sex."
   (60:30)

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Key Takeaways

• Balancing Social Media and In-Depth Conversations: The hosts recognize the limitations of social media in fostering meaningful interactions and utilize their podcast to delve deeper into sensitive topics.

• Navigating Public Backlash: Addressing controversial content requires transparency and a clear explanation of the intent behind such discussions.

• Consent in Fantasies: While personal fantasies are private, acting them out involving real individuals without consent is unethical and harmful.

• Effective Communication: Adopting healthier communication styles can enhance intimacy and reduce misunderstandings in relationships.

• Flexibility in Relationship Advice: The Marins advocate for adaptable relationship strategies, acknowledging that one size does not fit all.

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This episode of Pillow Talks offers listeners valuable insights into handling online feedback, maintaining intimacy amidst daily responsibilities, and fostering open, respectful communication within relationships. By addressing both personal experiences and audience interactions, Vanessa and Xander provide a comprehensive look into the complexities of modern relationships and sexuality.

Transcript

[Vanessa Marin]

You're just doing this to get, like, rage bait. You're just doing this for engagement, just to get people upset and angry. All caps. Explain yourselves. That is wildly inappropriate. My husband wouldn't have a dick left if he asked me that. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[Xander Marin]

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa Marin]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So a couple of months ago, we did a very raw, personal episode. I think we called it a brutally honest life check in or something like that. And we talked a lot about just real things that were going on in our lives. And one of the things we ended up talking a lot about was some frustrations that we were feeling with the podcast or just the challenge of not really being able to interact with listeners. Like, we can't really hear back from you in the moment or quickly thereafter, like, what you guys are thinking, what you're wanting more of, what you like. And we did end up getting a lot of great feedback from you guys over social media. You just go to a different platform to give us the feedback, which is really great to hear. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's definitely worth checking out. We talked about a lot of other stuff too, not just the podcast, but I thought, you know, why don't we talk about some of the challenges that come up with social media too? Because a lot of people were like, oh, don't you know, we love the podcast. Like, yeah, following you on social is fun, but, like, I feel way more connected to you on the podcast.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I think the implication is kind of like, oh, well, it's like, hard to interact on the podcast and therefore that we're saying, like, oh, we love social media, we love Instagram because we're just able to communicate with people all the time. And the reality is there's some real, real challenges and limitations with social media too. So, I mean, the interesting thing about that is, you know, we're going to be kind of talking about the flip side of this and being able to talk to you on the podcast about some of the real shit that we go through on social media. Some of the real Shit that comes up and some of the stuff that we might like to say. Sometimes that kind of is hard to say in that social media format.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, I mean, one of the. Obviously there are pros and cons to each platform. And one of the things that I really appreciate about this podcast is that we can talk about things in so much more depth and nuance. Social media is not a place for depth or. Or for nuance. And so it can just be. Yeah. Really challenging to have a real conversation on social. I feel like. Yeah, I feel like we can show up so much more as ourselves and have these real conversations and get into how we really feel on the podcast.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Tell me how you really feel, babe.

[Vanessa Marin]

That's another different podcast episode. But, you know, there are a lot of different challenges that come up with social. We won't talk about all of them. I mean, maybe you guys are interested in hearing, like a real behind the scenes of what it's like. But what we thought. Let us know if you are. But what we thought we would focus on is let's take some of the content that we've created that is really popped off on social and bring it over here to have these deeper, more nuanced conversations to really dissect, like certain comments that people left, arguments that people got into in the comments, just really giving you a more fleshed out view of a couple of these different posts because they talked about really important topics that I want to just get into more.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And also, I mean, this gives us a chance to say some of the things that we might like to say on social media that we just. It's not that we can't. We can't. You. You always can say something, but, like, stuff that we kind of hold back from saying because there's no way to get this message across in like a short response to a comment or something in. In a way that someone is going to react positively to.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

But before we do that, let's get into our review of the week, because reviews really are the very best way that you can help our podcast grow, because that lets other people know we're looking at our podcast for the first time that we are a legit podcast, that, you know, we actually have interesting and valuable things to say. Cause let's be real, there are a lot of podcasts out there, and sometimes it's hard to tell kind of what the real ones and what the not so real ones are. So the way we wait, the real one.

[Vanessa Marin]

What do you mean, like a fake podcast? Like, here's my podcast about wellness and you tune in and it's just like blank noise. What's a real. What's a fake podcast?

[Xander Marin]

I mean, it's just like not a very good podcast.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's my fake podcast. All right, continue.

[Xander Marin]

All right, maybe not not surreal podcast take, you know, I don't know, whatever. Anyway, help us out with a review. It helps us so much. All you do is you go to the Apple podcasts, go to the Pillow Talks main podcast page, scroll all the way down to the bottom, and you will see the space to enter a rating. So smash that five stars and then just leave us a couple sentences telling us what you love about Pillow Talks. And yeah, if you hear your review read aloud on this podcast, like right now, that means that you've won our review of the week giveaway. We will give you a free masterclass. All you gotta do is DM us on Instagram, Vanessa and Zander or email [e-mail] so, without further ado, evidence based and down to earth. Thank you. I have sexual trauma and have been working on my shame and fear and therapy to help improve my relationship with sex and myself. I'm with a wonderful partner of five years and this podcast has been a helpful supplement to this journey I'm on because we can listen and work together. And I feel like I'm not on my own as a mental health professional. I appreciate the evidence based and down to earth approach as well. Heart.

[Vanessa Marin]

Oh, thank you so much for this great review. Okay, so let's get into it. I figured that we had to start with the role playing your friend controversy.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, this is a. This is a very recent one.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so here's how it unfolded. We did a podcast episode which you may remember called am I being reasonable or Ridiculous? So I think it was the very first question that you answered.

[Xander Marin]

We went in hot with this one.

[Vanessa Marin]

A husband said that he had asked his wife to role play her best.

[Xander Marin]

Friend sexually and she had not responded.

[Vanessa Marin]

Well, she was not into it. She was really unhappy.

[Xander Marin]

And he was trying to say was it reasonable that I asked her?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So we did a, you know, like 10 minute breakdown of that question. And on the podcast episode, we also made a reel to encourage people to come on over to listen to the podcast. And so we did a like, reasonable or unreasonable? Like Xander and I stood in the middle. Oh, and I forgot to mention for all these clips, I think that we're gonna splice them in with our YouTube channel. I don't know if a lot of people know. We also have the full podcast episodes on YouTube. We're gonna be doing some experimenting with some video as well, but you can always, like, listen to them on YouTube and they're transcribed too, for any of our hard of hearing friends. So anyways, we'll put that over there. But basically it was Xander and I standing in the middle and it was like, you know, step left if it's reasonable, step right if it's ridiculous. And we went through, you know, four of the scenarios from the podcast episode, and we did that one first. Like, we definitely knew that one was going to intrigue people. Of course you're trying to get people's attention in that split second on social media because all of our attention is so scattered. But the comments went off like people were from the jump, angry. So at first there was just a lot of like, did you guys get that one wrong? Like, I think you did the editing backwards or something stepped the wrong way. But then we had the first. First one is diabolical. There were a lot of like, angry. Like, you're gonna need to clarify that. And then once people, like, I was in the comments for a little bit saying, like, no, this is actually our opinion. It wasn't an editing mistake. We do genuinely feel that. Like, listen to the podcast episode for our explanation.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Because we go into it in a lot more detail.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And then like, once people saw, no, this is not a mistake, then people started getting really, really angry and saying, like, you're just doing this to get like rage bait. You're just doing this for engagement. Just to get people upset and angry. All caps. Explain yourselves. That is wildly inappropriate. My husband wouldn't have a dick left if he asked me that. It was just like, people were really, really upset. If you're like most people, you can really use some better sleep. And one of the best ways to make sure you get better sleep is with Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth makes the most incredible bedding. All of their sheet sets are temperature regulating, they're super breathable, they help you sleep cooler, and they're so freaking comfortable. If you're somebody who just wants to be enveloped by the softest linens, you will not find anything softer than Cozy Earth.

[Xander Marin]

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[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

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[Vanessa Marin]

Cozy.Com and use our exclusive 40% off code pillow Talks. So we believe that as long as things are between two enthusiastically consenting adults, anything goes. Like, there is literally for any kink, fantasy, fetish, curiosity that you can imagine, there is somebody that is into it. And if you find each other and your interests align and you're both enthusiastically on board with it, like, who are we to judge or tell you? Like, you can't do that or can do that.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And then the only other caveat to that is, like, I would say between anything goes between two enthusiastically consenting adults, assuming it is not impacting anybody else adversely.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And I'll actually adjust it to just say, like, as long as it's between enthusiastically consenting adults, it can be more than two. So based on that belief that as long as everybody's on board and they're excited about it, I think it also goes to follow pretty reasonably that it's okay to ask for whatever it is that you want, that you're curious about trying, that you want to experience with your partner. Like, we are big proponents of open, honest sexual communication. We're big proponents of people taking responsibility for their desires, for their interests, you know, trying to be teammates with each other. So I think it's okay to ask for whatever it is that you want to ask. Now, that being said, whenever we're making a request of our partner, we also have to be thoughtful and sensitive about how they might respond to that request.

[Xander Marin]

So read the room, so to speak.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, I mean, like, I'm allowed to ask, Xander, will you pluck out all of your beard hairs with tweezers for me? But. But I also need to be thoughtful about the fact that, like, hey, that's going to cause him pain. I don't think he's going to like that. That is a pretty tall request. So I need to really minimize, like, severely minimize my expectations here. But the point that I really want to make is, like, there's a difference between asking something and expecting something.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, but let me back up a quick second because, you know, that was a really interesting example you gave of asking me to pluck my beard hairs out one by one with a tweezer. Because, okay, let's say in some theoretical world that you derived like, pleasure out of watching. Like, that was sort of like the sadomasochist.

[Vanessa Marin]

I would not type of thing, you.

[Xander Marin]

Know, be like, like, she's making that request because she's like, you know, what would really get me off is, like, watching you do this. Like, I would love it. Depending on what Vanessa already knows about me, that could be a request where she can reasonably expect that I might have a positive response or she could reasonably expect I might have a negative response. Like, if Vanessa already knew about me, hey, you know, Xander is actually kind of into pain play. Or like, he kind of enjoys things that, that are a little more intense than most people, then that might be a, a request, you know, where she might have a, a reasonable expectation that I actually would say yes. But on the flip side, if she knows that, you know, hey, every now and then Vanessa, like pulls an ingrown hair out of my beard and I yelp. Cause I do. Like, if she knows that, she's gonna know. It's a pretty tall order to make that request.

[Vanessa Marin]

I wanna use a different example because, like, I would never ask you to pull your beard hairs out. It causes you so much pain.

[Xander Marin]

Well, here I have a great example. So I know that Vanessa gets seasick quite quickly. Like, we went on a whale watching trip once and it was, you know, Vanessa's like, throwing up off the boat for like four hours. It was really bad. So, like, I know this about Vanessa now. I could get really excited about, like, wanting to go on a month long cruise and it would be reasonable for me to ask Vanessa, hey, what do you think about going on a cruise once?

[Vanessa Marin]

Long cruise. That sounds like my worst nightmare. I wouldn't want to get.

[Xander Marin]

I wouldn't want to do it either. But like, I could ask her, like, she couldn't find. Fault me for asking. All she has to do is say, you know what? I don't want to do that. I get so seasick. That would be horrendous for me. I don't want to do that. But like, I know that Vanessa gets seasick. So it would be kind of silly for me to ask that. It would be silly of me to expect that she might say yes because I already know that she's not going to be into it. So what we were trying to say is like, yeah, it's totally reasonable for you to ask this because you didn't tell us, like, you know, anything about your, your wife, like, whether you think that she could or couldn't be into it. Like, so it's, it's reasonable to ask, but, like, you gotta read the room. And like, she reacted really poorly. I would imagine you probably would have had some clues beforehand that she wouldn't be into it.

[Vanessa Marin]

So this is the thing. If the guy had reached out and said, I want to request this, I would have advised him really differently. I would have said, like, look, that's a tall request. Sure, there are for sure some people who would be into that and be very turned on by that. But I think the likelihood is like 99% of people, US included, like, if you asked me to do that, my feelings would be hurt. I'd be upset. I would not be willing to go along with that feeling.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I think I would feel the same way.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So it's like, the vast majority of people are not going to be into it. So let's tread carefully with this one.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. What do you think? Like, I'd ask him, like, what do you think she might say based on what you already know?

[Vanessa Marin]

Do other things. Like, you know, maybe try talking dirty a little bit. Like, don't maybe about, like, having sex with other random people. See if she's into that first. Because the whole idea of it being her friend, that's the really tough part of.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, that's taking it up and not.

[Vanessa Marin]

Is she comfortable talking dirty about other people? Is she comfortable pointing out, you know, you guys see another woman on the street and you saying, like, oh, I think that woman's really hot. Does she go, ooh, yeah, I think she is too, or is she like, hey, don't say that. That hurts my feelings. I don't like that. Or, you know, I don't want to talk dirty about other people in the bedroom, or I don't want to role play a nutty nurse or anything like that. And we'll get into that in another second.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, you're laying breadcrumbs. I like it.

[Vanessa Marin]

So I would, like, gauge her reaction. And if she's giving you negative reactions to those little steps, then I would not bring up the idea of role playing the best friend. But again, I just want to, like, I want to differentiate that he's not a bad person necessarily, just on the surface, the fact that he thinks it would be hot to have her role play as a friend, I don't think that inherently makes you a bad person. It's a taboo fantasy. A lot of us have fantasies specifically because it feels taboo and kind of naughty and forbidden. But again, we do have to be realistic about, like, your partner is a human being. They have feelings. They have their own boundaries and interests and curiosities. So when you're requesting things of them, like, you just have to be thoughtful about that. Okay, here at Pillow Talks, we go there. We talk about all the personal, intimate stuff that people aren't talking about enough.

[Xander Marin]

So we got to go there in our ads, too.

[Vanessa Marin]

We got to talk to you about wiping your butt.

[Xander Marin]

We do.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

I thought you were gonna say the products we put in our butt.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean, not true.

[Xander Marin]

Because we are. We are. And no, these. These wipes are great. I love them. I'm super happy that I have some in the bathroom now, and I've been using them every single day.

[Vanessa Marin]

They're in all of our bathrooms. And if you want to upgrade your restroom ritual, you can grab Good wipes at Target, Walmart, Kroger, and most local grocery stores. Just head to the toilet paper aisle and look for the bright aqua, rose, and emerald packages. They're also available on Amazon. If you're more of an online shopper. There was also one. I feel like we could do a whole episode just dissecting this one thing. But I do want us to move on. But I do want to talk about one other piece of this because there were such fascinating conversations happening about this. So let's assume that the wife actually was on board. She's like, ooh, that sounds really sexy. Is it okay to role play someone you know? Or is that damaging to your friend? Or is it like your friend is not consenting to be a part of your sex life in that.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, that was. A lot of people were jumping in, being like, well, it doesn't even matter whether it's reasonable or not. Like even if they both wanted to do it, it's not like morally okay because the friend hasn't consented to be brought into your fantasy, which that is. I mean, I understand that line of thinking, but like there is a difference between, you know, fantasizing about something and then like doing it in real life or talking about it in real life. And so, yeah, I think that that's totally valid. If both of you go out and tell your friend, hey, guess what? We've been having sex and pretending that it's you. Yeah, obviously, yeah, she did not consent to that. That is not okay. That's. That's like a one way ticket to blowing up your relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

That's violating. That's not okay. Like that would be horrible. But the idea of it being something that just the two of you and not telling other people either, like, I think that would definitely cross the line too. Like if you told, you know, other friends but not her.

[Xander Marin]

Oh yeah. Telling. Telling anybody about that, that is. I mean, I would just go as far as to say, as if this is something that you two really want to do, it's probably best for you to keep it between each other. Like that's just, that's just like a private fantasy that you guys do in your own bedroom.

[Vanessa Marin]

But even then, yeah, I mean, I have to admit I'm still sifting through this one in my own head and I'm really curious to hear what you guys think. So you can DM us at Vanessa and Xander, but on the one hand I'm like, I do get it. Like, I think if I knew that some of my friends were fantasizing about me and role playing me, that would be a little weird. And I do think if there are certain, like if you're role playing, I don't know, torturing her or something like that, like, that would feel a little bit weird. So I do kind of get it. But on the other hand, I'm like, you know, fantasy is just a fantasy. It's not something that's actually happening. It's happening in our heads. All of us fantasize about people, you know, sexually and non sexually. We fantasize about people without asking for their consent. We dream about people without asking for their consent.

[Xander Marin]

So like, nor we can't ask for consent.

[Vanessa Marin]

We don't even have control over that. So I think probably the Majority of people have masturbated thinking about somebody without asking for their explicit consent.

[Xander Marin]

Probably someone they know.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So I'm like, I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with that. Again, if you're, if you're in your head, really degrading somebody, doing violence to them, being cruel to them in some sort of way, like, yeah, I guess that it ethically feels like a little bit icky, but I don't know. I don't know really where to draw the line, but I don't think that we can, I don't think we can or should police our thoughts in that way. Someone in the comments made a really interesting observation. They were like, you know, we have this whole naughty nurse thing that I just brought up a minute ago. Like, nurses don't consent to being objectified in that way. And you can. Every Halloween you can make a pretty strong argument that that's like a fucked up thing to do to nurses in general. That we're taking this incredibly hardworking, important, life saving profession and we're turning it into something.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, we're sexualizing it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Sexual and slutty that we're playing around with. So, yeah, I mean, we just have to stop here because I could keep going and going and going, but it's a really, really interesting, like, philosophical debate to have. Like, is it okay to fantasize about somebody without their consent? Okay, let's move on and let's talk about our next reel. This one, this one surprised us. I never would have guessed when I was filming this one, it took literally 10 seconds to film. I never would have guessed that this would go on to become our most viewed reel ever or just most viewed social clip ever on any platform.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. What is it, what is it at?

[Vanessa Marin]

It was at like 20 million or something like that. It's probably even higher now, but it just keeps going. Basically the real. If you're not watching our YouTube.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, it's real easy to describe.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, it's me doing a dumb little.

[Xander Marin]

Dance, heart and soul on the piano.

[Vanessa Marin]

And the caption is like POV headed back to my desk after having sex with my husband in between meetings. That was literally. It fucking blew up. And it got distributed beyond our Instagram audience. You can always.

[Xander Marin]

20 million is more than our Instagram audience.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yes. So whenever we get the people who are like not following us watching our reels, you can, you can tell immediately.

[Xander Marin]

After you get beyond for, for our, for our account. Once you get past like 400,000 views, things start to take a turn. In the comments, I would say.

[Vanessa Marin]

So the main criticism that came up of this one was basically people just saying, you shouldn't post this. So there was a lot of, like, can we normalize not posting this kind of nonsense on the Internet? It's forever. Nobody wants to know this. So I got a little sassy in some of the comments and was just like, can we normalize tapping through to people's profile and seeing what it's all about? Like, literally all you have to do is just. You know, I can. I can understand being confused about, like, whoa, what is this woman? Like, what's this all about? But then you tap through and it's like, sex therapist. It makes immediate sense if you just take that one little action. But of course, that's too much for people on the Internet.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, yeah, that. That one. That. That step of being. Being like, oh, this is a sex therapy account. They talk about sex. Like, that also would address a lot of other comments that we had of, like. Of like, oh, my God, what if your boss sees this and you get fired? I responded, I'm gonna go on. I'm gonna go on LinkedIn and find who you work for. Somebody literally said that, I know.

[Vanessa Marin]

I find your boss on LinkedIn. And I responded and was like, lucky I'm the boss, dummy.

[Xander Marin]

I know. It's like, yeah, one, we. It's our company. Number two, this is the topic that our company deals in. So this is. Yeah, like, you know, it would be more, you know, I don't know, like, if you did something like, oh, in the middle of the work day, me watching sports or something, and it's like, arguably, you have more of a case to, like, get you fired from your sex therapy job doing something that's not sex therapy. But anyway, I was so. Is so, so funny to meet people that are. That are like, oh, yeah, I want to actually go get you in trouble for this. I really wish that one of them had come back to the comments and been like, oh, I found out that actually this is what you do.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean, I do understand feeling like that reel was kind of random. Like, if it just came up in my, you know, when I was scrolling through reels or whatever, I'd be like, okay, that's interesting. Like, why. Why did that person decide to make a reel about that? I get that aspect of it. But to, like, get so upset. Upset that you want to hunt down my boss and get me in trouble is really bizarre.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, I think it just speaks to how repressed so many people are when it comes to sex and how, like, I mean, I think that it's just proof of how little sex is a part of discussion or conversation or, like, anything in a lot of people's lives other than, I mean, or it's like, at least it's so compartmentalized. Like, most of these people commenting, I'm sure they do have sex, but most of them are like, no, sex is something. Maybe not, maybe not. But, like, you know, for the people that are saying that that do have sex, like, it's definitely coming from a perspective of this is supposed to happen in, you know, behind closed bedroom doors. And I don't want to know about it. I don't want to tell anybody about it. I don't even want to acknowledge that sex is a thing that I have regularly.

[Vanessa Marin]

There were also a ton of people posting this image that said we should all know less about each other. It was like a newspaper head or something. And I know to listeners of the podcast, I do not have to emphasize this point that much with you, but I totally disagree with that. I'm like, you know, if we were talking about sex more openly and honestly, and it was more normalized, and it wasn't a weird thing to just say, like, yeah, I had sex with my husband.

[Xander Marin]

It's like, in the middle of the day. Who cares what time it was? No, you're not allowed to have sex in the middle of the day. Only after 10pm I think it would.

[Vanessa Marin]

Be a great thing for us to know more about of each other.

[Xander Marin]

The other thing that I thought was highly ironic about people, so, like, thousands of people posting that we should know less about each other headline is that I'm nearly certain it's a New York Times headline, because I can tell because of the font in New York Times, the very specific font for their headlines. It's just hilarious to me that people would post a New York Times headline when the New York Times specifically has written multiple articles about you and us and our business and. And sex therapy. And also you have written articles about sex for the New York Times. So it's just very funny that people are like, taking an article from a publication that actually like that, where you write for, or they write about us somewhat regularly.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, let's move on to our fucking first reel. This is another very recent one. So the setup of the reel was basically us walking out the door for New Year's Eve and then like, turning around and saying, like, oh, wait, we forgot to fuck first. So if you haven't heard us talk about fuck first before it was originally created by Dan Savage. And the whole idea is to have sex before you go out on a date night or go out to a party, because once we've all eaten or had something to drink or it's getting towards the end of the night, like, that's a really tough time to have sex.

[Xander Marin]

Especially as you get older. The older you get, the harder this becomes.

[Vanessa Marin]

So Xander and I have a really big problem. We love good food and we love eating healthy, but we really hate having to pick what to eat every single day. Yeah, like, all the mental load and energy that goes into, like, what do you want for dinner? I don't know. What do you want? I don't know. Then we have to spend all the time and energy actually cooking it too, and planning it.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, I just want to be able to open up the fridge at lunchtime and be like, oh, there. That's what I'm having.

[Vanessa Marin]

And that's why we are so excited to introduce you to our podcast sponsor, hungryroot. Okay, look, I just have to give it to you straight. I know there are a million meal prep services out there.

[Xander Marin]

This one's different.

[Vanessa Marin]

This one is different. When we first signed up with hungryroot, we were like, we have to try this out first to see if we can recommend it. And we were totally blown away. So not only is it meal prep, it's also the fastest meal prep ever. Basically, what Hungryroot does is they take all these products and ingredients from some of our favorite really great, healthy, wholesome brands, and they create recipes that you can throw together in like five to 15 minutes. I was shocked by how fast these meals came together. But also they have a whole other section of offerings that includes, like, healthy snacks that you can have and even grocery items. Like, you could do all of your grocery shopping through Hungryroot. Like your produce, your meats, your snacks. Like, everything is available to you. It seriously blew my mind. I've never seen anything else like this.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, it's like there's pre prepared stuff. There's stuff where it's like individual items are prepared, but then, you know, in five minutes, you're mixing a couple of things together to have a full meal. There's also the full blown. If you want to cook a meal for, you know, 30 to 45 minutes from all raw ingredients, there's also that too. So it's really the perfect blend of everything. And you can get a range of things. Because sometimes I want to cook a whole meal, sometimes I want to spend 10 minutes and have dinner on the table.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean, we literally had dinners that took six minutes to make, and they were delicious. Like, I was so excited we don't have a Hungry Root box this week. And I'm like, this is sad.

[Xander Marin]

I know. We gotta. We gotta change. We gotta. We gotta get an order in, like, asap.

[Vanessa Marin]

We feel confident that you're gonna love Hungry Root as much as we do. And we have an incredible exclusive offer for you. For a limited time, you can get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.compillow and use code PILLOW. That's hungryroot.compillow code PILLOW. To get 40% off your first box and a free item of your Choice for Life. Hungryroot.com Pillow Code Pillow. So the main debate that popped off in the comment section, which it does every single time we post about the fuck first rule, is whether or not it works for parents. So one person wrote, the thought of this is great, but it's not doable with small children at home. Another person wrote, I wish there was an account like yours for parents with kids. A lot of the advice you have is great for childless couples, but not so great for parents with young children, unfortunately. And then a bunch of parents jumped in and started saying, like, hey, I'm a parent. This actually does work for me.

[Xander Marin]

This actually changed my relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So happy that we've done it. And I actually shared that Dan Savage, who created this rule, is a parent himself. So before we even wade into this one, I want to start by saying, Xander and I are really big believers that one size fits all advice is not real. Like, we have so much respect for individuals, for diversity, for differences. We are never going to say to you, like, this is how it should be for every couple. It's just not. That's just not life. Right? So the way that we approach our content is we want to share as many different tools, tips, advice, suggestions, tell you what works in our relationship. We want to share stuff with you, but we leave it to you and we trust you to find the things that are going to work in your.

[Xander Marin]

Relationship or adapt them to your situation.

[Vanessa Marin]

To adapt them to work for you and to leave behind the things that don't work for you. So, like, to look at our stuff as a buffet and you get to go through it like, ooh, I definitely know I'm gonna like that one. Oh, I'm kind of curious about trying that. Ooh, I know I'm not gonna like that one. Like, it's up to you, and you are the only person who's living your life, who's in your relationship, who's in your family. You're the only one who gets to decide. Like, we are never gonna say, like, we know better for you than you know for yourself. Like, that's just ridiculous. So if some. If any, one piece of advice, you're like, I don't want to do that. Cool. Don't do it. I'm not here to force you or police you or anything like that.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I mean, thinking the buffet metaphor got me thinking. That would be Vanessa hates hazelnuts with a passion. But so this would be like, if Vanessa. If every single buffet that Vanessa went to where they had Nutella sitting there, like, with, like, the bread and the spreads, if she was like, oh, I hate that buffet because they have Nutella, that would be so unreasonable. She, like, she gets a bunch of food. She loves it, and she's like, yeah, they had Nutella. That was a. That was a horrible buffet. Like, that wouldn't make any sense. Right?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, of course. So I. I want to be honest. Like, these are some of the comments on the entire Internet, not just on our account. Like, these are some of the comments that annoy me the most. It's like, people jumping in and saying, like, that won't work, and that's not gonna work for me. It's like, yeah, okay, cool. Then it doesn't work for you. But, like, just move along to the next thing. I think that people waste so much time and energy, like, engaging with stuff that doesn't apply to them. If it doesn't resonate with you, then save your energy and just move on. But I think that where it's coming from is that we all feel so invalidated in our own lives and choices and decisions that we have this really primal desire and urge to have other people agree with us. And so, like, we want to leave that comment. Like, it won't work for me. And we want to have other people jump in and say, like, yeah, yeah, you're totally right. It won't work for me either.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Marin]

Your excuse, this sense of camaraderie in it. But. So I get the impulse and the instinct, but what I want people to recognize is you can give yourself that validation again. You're the only person living in your shoes, and you are the only person who can decide if something will or won't work for you, if you want to try it or you don't want to try it. So, like, just give yourself that validation and save yourself all that energy of fighting with other people about it. Because the reality is, for somebody else, that is going to be interesting to them or they are going to want to try it. And nobody's right or wrong or better or worse. Here, we're just different people. So save your freaking energy. We all need to do a better job. Hydrating and Cure is here to help make that easier. Cure is the cleanest way to hydrate. They are made with clean ingredients, zero added sugar, giving you pure hydration without any of the junk. Only 25 calories per serving. No added sugars, no artificial sweeteners. Just clean, natural hydration that keeps you feeling energized without the crash. Cure is doctor approved and safe for the whole family, from adults to kids ages 1 and up. If you're somebody who struggles to drink water. Xander and I actually are not. You've really gotten me on the water drinking train, but I know most people do not drink water. My mom said she is lucky if she drinks like a glass of water a day, which is crazy.

[Xander Marin]

Good Lord. She needs to have a cure in that water.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So if you're somebody who's like, I can't drink plain water. I need some flavor. I think cure is a really amazing, amazing option.

[Xander Marin]

Well, not only is it flavor, but it's actual electrolytes and that come from coconut. So it, like, tastes like a coconut water with flavor. It's delicious and is giving you electrolytes that you need.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I was pretty astounded to learn that 75 of Americans are dehydrated and don't drink enough water and electrolytes and dehydration is one of the most common symptoms of fatigue, headaches, brain fog, and dry skin.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I know for me personally, once I started hydrating better, and especially once I started using electrolyte packets like Cure. That is when a lot of the. The brain fog and kind of like headachiness that I would get towards the end of the day, that's when that started to go away. And for me, I'm super active. If I don't drink a bunch of electrolytes right after surfing, like, that's setting myself up for a day where I'm feeling achy in the head. So, yeah, I cannot recommend this more highly. Whether you are super active or not and just struggling to drink water like this is so essential for you.

[Vanessa Marin]

Hydration goes beyond just drinking water. It's about replenishing the electrolytes we lose through sweat, sleep, alcohol, and daily activities. Water Alone is not enough to do the job. That's why you need to try Cure, the electrolyte drink mix that tastes as amazing as it makes you feel. And for pillow talks listeners, Cure has an awesome deal. They are offering 20% off your first order. Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting cure hydration.com pillow and using promo code pillow at checkout. That's curehydration.com pillow and use code pillow for 20% off your first order. There's one other piece in this too that I think is really important, and it's looking at life from a lens of what's possible versus what's not possible. I think a lot of us operate in a scarcity mentality and sometimes, like, we're just in seasons of survival where all we can do is just focus on survival. And that's understandable and normal and okay and allowed. But I think a majority of the people live in this scarcity mindset the majority of their lives, which is really tough. And that is something that I want to encourage people to try to break out of. I think when you look at life from the perspective of what is possible for me versus what's not possible for me, it really shifts things. So if you're a parent and you see the fuck first reel, first of all, you could just say, I'm not interested in this one. Move on to the next one. Totally cool. I support you on that. But if there's something that's like, catching your attention about it, like, imagine what it would be like to say, huh, okay, this doesn't immediately feel doable for me, but I wonder if there's a way that I could. I wonder if there's a way that I could adjust this or take like one piece of it, or take like that core belief behind it and make it work for me, or even make.

[Xander Marin]

It work for me sometimes, or try.

[Vanessa Marin]

It and see if it could. And if it doesn't, then I move on to the next thing. So again, you're allowed to just say, eh, not interested, moving on to the next thing. But if there's something that's like, grabbing you about it, that's making you want to leave a comment of this wouldn't work, Just imagine instead what life could feel like if you approached it from, how could I make this work for me? So if you are a parent and you're kind of curious about trying the fuck first rule, but it feels a little complicated to you, we want to give you some tips, some ideas of ways that it could work and again, everybody's unique. Everybody's different. Some of these tips may work for you, some of them may not. But here's the buffet for you. So on a more practical level, maybe it's getting the kids to be taken care of outside of the house. So you take them to grandma and grandpa's house, or you find another couple and you guys trade off kids sitting for each other so that you're kind of working into the date. Like, we're not just dropping off the kids and then going to the date. Maybe it's. We're dropping off the kids and then coming home to have a little time together or ask.

[Xander Marin]

Or you just have your date at home.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, have the date at home. Or ask grandma and grandpa, can you come pick up the kids and take them away? So that could be a possibility if you have a babysitter. We actually got this idea from a babysitter who was like, look, I understand parents want alone time. Like, just tell me to take the kids out of the house so they don't have to get upset watching us leave. Right. So, like, ask the babysitter. Take them to the park. Take them on a little walk around the block. Take them on a drive somewhere, you know?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And, like, literally give them, like, a time. Like, hey, I, like, please take them out of the house for the next hour because we will be getting ready for the date. And we don't, you know, we don't want. We don't want you to come home while we're still here so that, you know, then the kids will get upset because we're about. Because then we're actually going to leave. Like, we're trying to make this, you know, you can center this on the kids. Like, hey, we want, like, this to be a good transition for the kids. So why don't you just leave? The house needs to be an hour, because we won't be leaving for an hour. Make it. Make it really clear, because I think a lot of people get in their heads, oh, if I tell them to go to the park, then I'm going to be, like, worrying about, like, are they. Are they going to walk in on us the whole time? Like, there are ways to sort this out.

[Vanessa Marin]

Or literally just tell the babysitter, like, we just want a little bit of alone time in our own house. Like, could you please just take the kids out? That's totally a fine thing to do here. Other parents have told us they let the kids watch a show or watch a movie and they lock themselves in the bedroom or Lock themselves in the bathroom and turn the shower on.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, Depending on the age of the kids, this can be something that could work. Or something that's maybe not going to work if the kids are too young.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, Xander, we're going to do a little choose your own adventure. Pick between hometown lecture me and the ticket.

[Xander Marin]

I think we did lecture me before, so let's do the ticket.

[Vanessa Marin]

Oh, okay.

[Xander Marin]

I think I know it's coming.

[Vanessa Marin]

Tell me something I wouldn't know just from looking at you right now. I'm getting wet. Oh, come for you. Full sentences, please. Ooh, that got spicy. That was a little clip from the ticket from Dipsea, which is the female founded app for spicy audiobooks and more. Created by women for the female gaze. Their app is so incredible. It has over a thousand spicy audiobooks, all crafted by a team of professional writers and top tier narrators. So whether you're looking for a rugged cowboy, a Scottish sailor, maybe you got into the world of the fae. Like I did a deep dive into like the last year, the God of the underworld. Whatever you're into, you're gonna find characters that you love. On Diploma Dipsea, with their easy to explore app, you can search for your favorite romance genres. We're talking things like contemporary historical, dark sports, western, Romantasy, Sapphic, like the ticket sounds like it may be and more. And new chapters are released every week, so you'll always find something new to enjoy. And Dipsea has an incredible offer for listeners of the show. You can try an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com pillow seriously, there's no reason not to try it out. Like 30 days for free. If you got even a little bit of a, like a little zing out of that from the ticket, try it out. It might surprise you.

[Xander Marin]

Go listen to the rest. I mean, I need to know what happens.

[Vanessa Marin]

That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to dipseastories.com pillow dipsystories.com pillow so those are some practical tips, but like the whole spirit of the fuck first rule. What Xander and I have come to recognize is like the idea is prioritizing intimacy earlier in the day, not leaving it until the very last thing at night when we're full and maybe a little drunk and exhausted. Like that's such a hard time to get excited for sex.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, you don't want it to be the last thing on the to do list. When you have a to do list, the things that the last one or two things, like What? Let's be real. Very often those end up getting punted to the next day. Right. And the problem, though, is that when sex is on the to do list, typically. Okay, let's back up. Typically, if you have a to do list and there's something I needed to get done today, but I didn't get it done, if I were creating a to do list for the next day, that would go to the very top of my to do list for the next day. Right. But let's be real. When sex is on your to do list, the vast majority of people will just punt it to the end of the to do list for the next day. No one is going, like, all right, I said I was gonna have sex today. I didn't. Now I'm gonna make that my number one priority tomorrow. Barely anybody does that. If you do, that's awesome, and I. I applaud you, but most people don't do that. And so in this case, if. If that's, like, the way that you think about it, then, yeah, it's like you're basically. You're basically acknowledging to yourself, you know, subconsciously, and then to your partner, possibly more explicitly. Like, sex is just not something I'm prioritizing very much.

[Vanessa Marin]

So instead, what you could do is maybe there's a different time earlier in the day that you could prioritize. Like, the kids have nap time or they're at school, or you guys, you know, come back for lunch. Maybe it's even just in the morning first thing, like, waking up before the kids, so that it's just a different way of looking at sex, of trying to figure out, okay, here's our schedule. Here's all the stuff that we have to do and take care of. Where's the best time for us to fit sex in so that we're giving each other some of our energy and attention? All right, let's wrap things up with the last reel that we were going to discuss. This one was all about how to turn your partner down without hurting their feelings. So it was like we had two columns on the reel with, like, one was our old way, and one was our new, new way. So the old way is, like, you know, bad ways of turning down your partner. So it was things like, I'm not in the mood. I'm tired. Stop it. And what we had under the new way was, I love that you want to connect with me. I know it takes a lot to put yourself out there. I'm not feeling open to it right now. Can we get a Rain check, and next time I'll initiate with you. So one of the main criticisms that came up on that reel was people saying, this language is so clinical. Like, why would nobody ever talks that way? You sound like robots talking to each other.

[Xander Marin]

All right, so take it and put it in your own words. Put it in your own language.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean, first of all, yes, obviously, like, put it in your own language. Everybody speaks to each other differently. Like, say it in the way that feels natural to you, of course, but also, like, I don't think that that's that clinical at all. That was not, like, thank you. I have received your request for sexual initiation. At this moment, I regretfully am unable.

[Xander Marin]

I regret to inform you.

[Vanessa Marin]

I was just like, hey, I love that you wanted to connect with me. How is that clinical? Tell me how that is cold and clinical.

[Xander Marin]

I don't know. It sounds like something a psychologist would tell you to say.

[Vanessa Marin]

You know what? If people communicated the way that therapists told them to communicate, we'd have a lot fewer problems. And that's what really struck me about this reel is, like, people are so unfamiliar with healthy communication that it feels clinical to them.

[Xander Marin]

But I. You know what? I think what's really going on there, though? And people make that have that objection to this. What they're really saying is, ugh. Like, that. That, like, feels. Well, it feels hard because in that we're saying, hey, now it's your responsibility to initiate the next time. And a lot of people are like, I just want to be able to say no. I just want to be able to say no, not give a reason, not, like, say no. And like, to. I want to be able to say no in a not very caring way without giving a reason. And I don't want to have to be responsible for initiating.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So here's the thing. Like, you're allowed to say no whenever you want for whatever reason you want, for no reason whatsoever. Like, it's your body. You get to decide what you want to do with it. And just like we were talking about, like, the very first one, being considerate of how your partner's going to receive something. You have to be considerate here, too. It's really important for us to be able to hold both of those truths at the same time. You're allowed to say no whenever you want, and your partner is allowed to want sex whenever they want. And actually, there's a third truth in it, too. Your partner's allowed to feel bummed out if you're not open to being intimate with them. They're not allowed to guilt, pressure, manipulate, coerce you into having sex, but they are allowed to feel like, dang, I had wanted to spend time with my partner.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, not only are they allowed to, like, they will have feelings about it. There is no way, there is no way to turn somebody down and ensure that they have zero feelings about it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So if you just tell your partner, like, I'm too tired, like that, that's a perfectly valid excuse. I've not wanted to have sex because I'm too tired plenty of times and have not had sex because I'm too tired plenty of times. So that's a valid reason that you can give. But when you hear that from your partner, it doesn't feel very intimate. I think what we forget is sex is a way for us to feel close and intimate with each other. It's not just a physical act. And so I encourage people. When your partner is initiating with you, imagine that what they're actually saying to you is, I want to feel close to you right now. If your partner said that to you, would you say, I'm too tired? No, of course not. Right. Like, you would acknowledge that. And even again, even if you were too tired to spend any time with them or connect with them or have sex with them or go on a date with them, whatever it is, you would still have a much softer way that you would respond to that.

[Xander Marin]

Or even like, oh, that's really sweet. I'm in the middle of five things on my to do list and I don't have time to hug you or cuddle with you right now or something like that. But like, even just being like, oh, that's so sweet, I love that you.

[Vanessa Marin]

Wanted to connect with me. That was literally the first sentence in the thing. So it's acknowledging, like, I appreciate that. I want to feel close to you too. The second part of our original statement was, I know it takes a lot to put yourself out there. So it's just acknowledging there is so much vulnerability that goes into initiation. And I know it doesn't feel that way for a lot of couples because your partner's probably initiating by saying, like, want to do it? Like, it's been a while. Like, I get that. But it's because they feel so freaking vulnerable that they're trying to do it in these half hearted ways so that when you say no, they can kind of like, oh, I wasn't even trying that much anyways. Right.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And if you want proof of, you know, how vulnerable this is, look at all the Comments. You look up that reel. Look at all the comments from men that are like. That are like, I've given up on initiating because, like, she rejects me so much, and I, like, feel so, you know, it's like, there's so many people that are. They're super triggered by this because they feel like they've been rejected so many times in ways that don't feel good to them. So, Yeah, I can promise you that. Yeah, it's tough.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So just taking that moment, that effort to acknowledge, like, I see the vulnerability. I see that you put yourself out there is really important. And then the last part of this one was saying, the next time, I'll initiate with you. And there were a million comments from men being like, you know, I turned into a skeleton before she actually came back around and initiated.

[Xander Marin]

Still waiting for that rain check.

[Vanessa Marin]

So I like offering that because it's a recognition of the vulnerability that it took to initiate. So you're telling your partner, like, I see that vulnerability. I'm gonna take that role, that responsibility, that load on the next time, and I will be the one to initiate.

[Xander Marin]

Now. I think there's, like, there's also some probably pushback. You know, we kind of gave the, like, gender stereotype there of, like. Like, you know, oh, like, men feel like that's, like, a hollow promise. I think on the flip side of that gender stereotype there. There may also be a number of. Of women who kind of objected to that idea because it's like, oh, well, like. Like, I'm not. Like, I'm not open to initiating because, like, I'm totally overwhelmed or overloaded or, like, you know, my partner doesn't, you know, doesn't, like, do anything to, like, be connected with me and all this stuff. And, like, yeah, we're not saying this is the silver bullet to fix your relationship. Oh, if. If all you do is initiate after you turn your partner down, then, like, boom, problem solved. Like, if there are deeper, more systemic issues in your relationship, the mental load is imbalanced. You guys aren't feeling emotionally connected at all. You're barely seeing each other. You're not going on date nights, then, yeah, like, this on its own isn't gonna work for you. Like, there's gonna have to be a, you know, a bigger discussion of, like, you know, hey, I. I love that. I love that you wanna be having sex with me, that you wanna feel close to me. I know that it was vulnerable of you to initiate with me right now. I would really like for us to be having more Sex. I would really like to be in the mood for sex more. Here are some of the things that are coming up for me that are making it challenging for me to have the mental space or to feel connected enough to have sex right now and use that to kind of pivot into a conversation of, like, how can we start to address some of these things that are going on that are going to make me feel more excited about this and are going to make me actually be excited about initiating with you the next time or tomorrow or a couple days from now when I am feeling excited about that.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And what made me so frustrated about a lot of the comments that I was seeing from men who were super frustrated about their partner never initiating is I was like, I understand why you're frustrated. Yeah, like, that makes perfect sense. Like, if your partner never initiates with you, of course you're going to feel hurt, you're going to miss them, you're going to want to connect with them. You're going to feel like all the load, all the responsibility is on you to keep your sex life afloat and active. Like, it makes perfect sense to feel sad, to feel frustrated, to like, want more from your partner. But at the same time, all these dudes are being such assholes about it that they're shooting themselves in the foot. It's like, you actually deserve the thing that you want, but you're being such a jerk about it that you're turning it into not deserving.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I mean, like, there were a lot of. A lot of dudes or just a lot of people, Most of them happen to be dudes that were like, oh, it's been like five years since we've had sex. And like every time I initiate, she says, you know, she said something like, oh, yeah, like, maybe next time or whatever. And like, and it never, never happens. I just don't believe her anymore. And it's like for anyone, you know, feeling resentful because it hasn't happened time after time, year after year, that I hate to break it to you, but that is on you too. It's on you because this is a real issue. Like after, at a certain point in time, this goes on long enough. Like, yeah, like, this is a real issue. I mean, sex is one of the top reasons that relationships end and people get divorces. Ye. Because at the end of the day, like, sex is important and if you are not getting the, you know, if you are not able to have the type of physical intimacy that is important to you long term, like, you, you absolutely deserve to, to get into a new relationship where you do have a chance of having that. And so, but yeah, after years and years of kind of putting up with that or not saying anything about that. Yeah, like you are literally co signing on it. You are creating a situation where it is okay for your partner to just continue saying no or continue giving you rain checks and never coming back to it. Like at a certain point you do have to stand up for yourself and you have to say, hey, I'm like, this is starting to feel like a real serious issue for me. This is a really important thing. Physical intimacy is a really important thing for me and I need some amount of it in my relationship to be able to have a successful long term marriage. And like, you know, like, we need to, we need to talk about like how we can, how we can make that happen for, for both of us. And so I think all these people that are complaining about how many years it's been, I'm like, yeah, like I agree with you, that is a problem. But it is also a problem that you are not taking action on that. Like, like just sitting there being like, okay, yeah, I guess, I guess it's just never gonna happen. And just allowing yourself to be resentful. Like you are an equal part of that problem.

[Vanessa Marin]

Exactly. Yeah. It's just so sad because I'm like, that's literally what our account is here for. It's like help couples realize that sex is important. It is a really valid part of, you know, relationships and intimacy and connection. We're here to help you figure out how to experience more of that with your partner. But you also have to be open to learning new techniques, to changing your ways, to looking at the responsibility that you have in these situations. So it's tough, man, it's tough. We want to help. Stop being a jerk.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, you got gotta have good communication. Gotta, gotta say what your needs are, what your wants are, what your fantasies, what your desires are. And you also have to be able to stand up for yourself and have tough conversations. Don't let things go for years and years and years. All you have to do is look at some of these Instagram comments to see what happens to you if you let this stuff go for years and years. Like you're going to be a bitter, resentful person. You're not going to be happy.

[Vanessa Marin]

And also, I just have to call out because we haven't said this explicitly. Like there was a lot of entitlement in these comments too about like, you know what men deserve and like Feeling like women need to give it to men whenever they want it. I mean, there was some gross comment of, like, keep his belly full and his cock empty or something like that.

[Xander Marin]

Ball's empty.

[Vanessa Marin]

Balls empty.

[Xander Marin]

Wow, you took that up a notch.

[Vanessa Marin]

I was like, that's so gross. Like, nobody is deserve. Like, how do I say this? We are all deserving of intimacy, but you're not owed sex. You're never owed sex.

[Xander Marin]

And if you. And if you believe that you are, you know, like, I'm not going to tell you like, that you can't believe that. Like, I'm sure you can find plenty of people out there that will want to be in a relationship with you with that type of arrangement. But if that's the case, like, just move on from our account. Like, nothing that we have to say is going to be helpful for you. In fact, everything we have to say is going to be unhelpful for you because it's going to go against that worldview that's going to bring. It's going to take you further away from where you want to be, which is that you just want to be able to have sex whenever for yourself. You know, it doesn't really matter what your partner thinks about it or what their level of enjoyment is. So, yeah, like, literally nothing we say is going to be helpful for you. So, boom, move on.

[Vanessa Marin]

Actually, that reminds me, we have an entire episode. Episode 73, do you ever owe sex to your partner? That goes into a whole debate about this topic.

[Xander Marin]

What spoiler alert is you don't.

[Vanessa Marin]

But we get into a lot of nuance in that. Nuance, my favorite word today. All right, well, that wraps it up for today. If you are not already joining us on Instagram, we'd love to connect with you over there, too. We're at. Vanessa and Xander would love to hear your thoughts on what we talked about today. We'd love to have you all up in our comments, helping us create a little more nuance in the world of social media.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, we love. We love that. We love the commenters who, you know, try to call out, hey, it doesn't have to be exactly the way they said, or here's a way that I modified this to make it work for me. That is so, so helpful for helping people break free of that kind of black and white thinking.

[Vanessa Marin]

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week.

[Xander Marin]

Sa.