EPISODE 198: Stop Doing THIS If You Want More Sex (Initiation Fixes You Need to Know)

Summary

Pillow Talks: EPISODE 198 – "Stop Doing THIS If You Want More Sex (Initiation Fixes You Need to Know)"

Hosts: Vanessa & Xander Marin
Release Date: March 6, 2025

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In Episode 198 of Pillow Talks, hosts Vanessa and Xander Marin delve into the critical yet often overlooked aspect of sexual relationships: sexual initiation. They explore common pitfalls couples encounter when initiating intimacy and provide actionable strategies to enhance sexual connections. Drawing from Vanessa's 20 years of experience as a sex therapist and their own relationship dynamics, the episode offers a blend of professional insights and personal anecdotes aimed at fostering healthier and more fulfilling intimate lives.

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1. The Importance of Skillful Initiation

Initiation is more than a fleeting question of "Do you want to have sex right now?" It's a pivotal factor that determines the frequency and quality of sexual interactions within a relationship. Vanessa emphasizes that only 17% of people feel satisfied with how their partner initiates sex, leaving a staggering 83% unsatisfied (Vanessa Marin, 01:38). This dissatisfaction often stems from uninspired or poorly timed attempts to initiate intimacy, leading to frustration and a decline in sexual frequency and pleasure.

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2. Common Mistakes in Sexual Initiation

Vanessa and Xander identify several key mistakes couples make when initiating sex:

a. Not Initiating at All

Vanessa shares her personal struggle with initiation due to societal conditioning that places the onus of initiating on men. She explains, "I spent my whole life being socialized to believe that it's the man's job to initiate sex" (Vanessa Marin, 12:25). This mindset can lead to one-sided efforts and unmet sexual needs within the relationship.

b. Initiating Too Randomly

Initiating intimacy in moments that feel abrupt or without any preceding connection can catch partners off guard. Vanessa points out, "For your partner, the experience is that it's just like out of nowhere. Like, there's no warmup. There's no like, connection" (Vanessa Marin, 15:05). This can make the initiation feel forced and reduce the likelihood of a positive response.

c. Initiating at Inappropriate Times

Vanessa recounts an incident where she attempted to initiate sex at a beach bonfire while intoxicated, highlighting how context can render an initiation ineffective and frustrating (Vanessa Marin, 16:20). Initiating during stressful moments or when a partner is preoccupied can diminish the intimacy and exacerbate tensions.

d. Lack of Emotional Connection

A significant portion of the audience relates to feeling annoyed when there's no prior flirtation or affection before initiation (Zander Marin, 24:21). This disconnect can stem from differing needs for emotional versus physical connection, where one partner seeks intimacy to feel connected, and the other requires emotional closeness before feeling comfortable with physical intimacy.

e. Over-Initiating (Spray and Pray Approach)

Constantly trying to initiate sex without regard for the partner's responses can feel pressured and disrespectful. Vanessa describes it as, "spray and pray," akin to a child repeatedly asking for something until they get it (Vanessa Marin, 26:12). This approach can lead to resentment and decreased sexual desire.

f. Waiting Until the End of the Night

Sex often becomes the last activity at bedtime routines, leaving little room for spontaneity or genuine desire. Vanessa shares, "People just have it in their heads that the end of the night is when sex happens" (Vanessa Marin, 28:21). This can make the experience feel obligatory rather than desired.

g. Unskillful Initiation

Initiating sex in ways that feel lazy or unsexy, such as giving a fake back massage or making awkward jokes, fails to create an inviting atmosphere. Vanessa humorously critiques methods like "helicopter penis" maneuvers, emphasizing the need for genuine and thoughtful initiation efforts (Vanessa Marin, 32:27).

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3. The Role of Clear and Direct Communication

Effective initiation hinges on clear and direct communication. Vanessa and Xander stress the importance of understanding each other's preferred initiation styles. They highlight that while men often appreciate straightforward initiation, women may have diverse preferences. As Xander states, "the vast majority of men really like just a super clear and direct... approach" (Zander Marin, 40:44). Couples are encouraged to discuss and establish their unique initiation preferences to avoid misunderstandings and enhance mutual satisfaction.

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4. Addressing Pressure and Emotional Safety

Pressuring a partner to engage in intimacy can be detrimental to the relationship. Vanessa advises, "You are allowed to ask for sex... as long as it's done respectfully" (Vanessa Marin, 43:06). They emphasize that partners should respect each other's autonomy and boundaries, ensuring that initiation feels like an invitation rather than a demand.

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5. Practical Solutions and Resources

To aid couples in improving their initiation practices, Vanessa and Xander recommend their "Art of Initiation" course. This resource offers comprehensive strategies, including:

• Understanding Different Initiation Styles: Identifying whether you and your partner prefer verbal, physical, or playful initiation.
• Creating Ideal Conditions: Establishing scenarios that feel natural and inviting for both partners.
• Building Emotional Intimacy: Enhancing the emotional connection to make physical intimacy more meaningful.

Additionally, they share a heartfelt review from a listener who benefited from their course, illustrating the positive impact of effective initiation strategies (Vanessa Marin, 08:35).

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6. Encouraging Open Dialogue

Throughout the episode, Vanessa and Xander advocate for open and honest conversations between partners about their sexual needs and preferences. They suggest using the podcast as a tool for initiating these discussions, fostering a deeper understanding and connection.

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Conclusion

Episode 198 of Pillow Talks offers valuable insights into the complexities of sexual initiation within relationships. By identifying common mistakes and providing practical solutions, Vanessa and Xander empower couples to transform initiation from a source of frustration into an opportunity for connection and intimacy. Listeners are encouraged to explore their recommended resources and engage in meaningful dialogues with their partners to enhance their sexual relationships.

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Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa Marin (01:38): "Only 17% of people say initiation is working. 83% say it's not."
• Zander Marin (11:08): "Like, some people the romance has disappeared... Can we have sex?"
• Vanessa Marin (15:05): "It feels like, wait, like I'm so caught off guard. It just feels too random."
• Zander Marin (40:44): "The vast majority of men really like just a super clear and direct approach."

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Timestamp Reference:

• Each quote includes a timestamp in the format (MM:SS) corresponding to the transcript segments.

Transcript

[Vanessa Marin]

So lazy. Initiation is the, like, want to do it? I guess it's been a while. We probably should. It's just that, like. Or you start, you know, you give the, like, fake back massage. It just, you know, it feels like zero effort.

[Zander Marin]

There has to be some conversation about what types of situations do feel appropriate for initiation. What types of situations don't feel appropriate?

[Vanessa Marin]

This is something that I've been playing around a lot with lately. I think that this is actually one of the biggest mistakes that couples make is always trying to initiate in the moments immediately before sex. Like, do you want to have sex with me right now? Yes or no? Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[Zander Marin]

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa Marin]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today. We're talking about something that is a big problem in so many relationships, and that is sexual initiation. Only 17% of people said that they feel like initiation is working in their relationship. They like the way their partner initiates. It's going well. 17%.

[Zander Marin]

Damn, that's abysmal.

[Vanessa Marin]

83% of people say it's not working. They don't like it.

[Zander Marin]

There's a lot of. A lot of room for improvement there, which is great because we got a lot of things that you can do to improve.

[Vanessa Marin]

Wouldn't that be sad? If we're like, there's no room for improvement, we're just gonna do a whole episode about how bad it is. No solutions. It can't get better. You just have to get used to it.

[Zander Marin]

I mean, that's just not who we are. That's not what we do, babe.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. You know, initiation is a really big deal. I think most of us think of it as just this split second, like, do you want to have sex? Yes. No. Reminds me of that. Did you ever write notes in elementary school, like, do you like me? Yes or no? And you pass it to your crush.

[Zander Marin]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's like that. We think of it as this, like, super quick little process, but it actually is a really big deal. And it's so much more than just those few seconds. Initiation determines whether or not we're going to have sex with our partner and how often we're going to have sex with our partner. But the bottom line is most of us just don't know how to do it. So we're doing it in all the wrong ways, which is leading to annoyance, frustration, resentment, less sex, and even less pleasant, pleasurable sex, too. So today, we want to help you understand your blind spots and discover how to get better at it. So we turned to our trusty Instagram community. We asked people to share with us, like, what are the annoyances that you have when it comes to initiation? What's not working for you? What's bothering you about it? And we're going to walk you through all these responses because they were fascinating.

[Zander Marin]

Are we going to address the visual elephant in the room today, though?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yes, we are.

[Zander Marin]

I thought at the beginning you were going to say. I mean, you were going to say.

[Vanessa Marin]

You know, that's a topic for.

[Zander Marin]

You're going to say, you know, it's a really big problem. And I was going to say my biggest getting. Getting a. Getting a horrible sun sunburn.

[Vanessa Marin]

How it actually hurts to laugh that much. Okay. If you're watching the episode on YouTube or I guess this is going to happen on all the reels that we make about this episode too.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah. I mean, hey, look, maybe this is your chance to the listener to go, you're listening in your earbuds. Maybe now just flip over to YouTube for a second. Check us out over there.

[Vanessa Marin]

Because Ugly face.

[Zander Marin]

No one said ugly.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean, I'm saying ugly. I'm not being mean to myself. It's just. It is the reality. Okay, so let me say what happened.

[Zander Marin]

Why don't. Yeah, why don't you.

[Vanessa Marin]

My ugly face.

[Zander Marin]

Before we get. Okay, before we go there, why don't we go to where.

[Vanessa Marin]

What actually happened yesterday? I got a laser treatment on my face. Halo laser. It's a pretty intensive one. I knew that I was going to be a little red, but I kind of forgot that we were doing the podcast episode today. Cause we're recording on a different day than we usually do. So when I had originally booked this appointment, I thought, oh, it'll give myself a couple of days to cool off before I have to record. But schedule has changed. We had to record the very next day. I just got it done, like in the evening yesterday. So I'm crispy. Crispy feels like the best word for it. I'm very red. I'm inflamed. I'm puffy. I am.

[Zander Marin]

You can't smile too much because it Hurts?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, No, I just noticed that it's, like, starting to crack in the corner of my mouth. So, like, when I just laughed really loud, it, like, hurt right over there. So I'm not looking my finest. But you know what? I honestly don't really care that much. I've had lasers done before, and they're always telling me, like, okay, you're gonna have to stay inside for a couple of days. You might look a little scary. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not that vain. I'm vain enough to want to get the laser in the first place, but I'm not so vain that I have to hide it from the world. I got a lase. It's fine. Lots of people do it. Normalize. Ugly laser face. But, yeah, I'm not looking my fine. I mean, it's scary looking. I'm very red. And it's also like, there's, like, brown spots too.

[Zander Marin]

You're a little mottled.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean, it looks like someone took a fucking laser torch to my face, which is what happened. And, yeah, I'm really swollen, especially on my neck. So I'm not. Yeah, I'm not looking my finest, but I will be soon. I'll have some fresh, glowy skin under all these burns. But, you know, we're here. We're doing it. We're just gonna. Maybe on all the reels, we'll have to put, like, a little asterisk on the side. Like, was just lasered. Don't worry about it. She's fine.

[Zander Marin]

She's fine.

[Vanessa Marin]

She was real dedicated to this podcast. I care more about this podcast than about looking ugly on this podcast. So here we go. Also, I can't. Like, the other thing. People were DMing this morning. Cause I posted something on Instagram and I was like, okay, should I go ahead and record this? It's gonna live on the Internet forever. And people are like, oh, yeah, go ahead. Just, like, put some makeup on. I can't. You can't put makeup on this. Also, I don't even own face makeup. But, like, I can't put on any mascara. I can't, you know, do my brows or anything. But no, I'm just. Just have to be like this.

[Zander Marin]

Well, I think you still look beautiful.

[Vanessa Marin]

Thank you.

[Zander Marin]

You're welcome.

[Vanessa Marin]

Are you gonna try to initiate with me with my face?

[Zander Marin]

I might later. I might. I might.

[Vanessa Marin]

How much are you gonna look at my face when we have sex? You mean like doggy style, babe?

[Zander Marin]

Reverse cowgirl.

[Vanessa Marin]

Don't look at me. I want to have sex with you, but don't look at me.

[Zander Marin]

No, that's mean.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay.

[Zander Marin]

All right. Well, now that we've. Now that we've addressed that, we are going to switch things up a little bit. Usually we do review of the week here. We read a review of our podcast because we love reviews, but we've been getting some really great feedback from people on our courses these days. And so we wanted to. We wanted to extend review of the week into all the people that write in and send us nice reviews of products that we have, our courses and our guides. So if this is you DM us or DM us or email us@infovm therapy.com and we will give you a free gift. And yeah, so we would love it if you left us a review on the podcast, but even more, we would love it if you sent in a DM or an email telling us about your experience with one of our courses. So this week's is about the art of initiation. This person says, I bought the Art of Initiation course and so glad I did. Your poor initiation videos really resonated with me because those are my husband's go to. I almost always turn him down in the moments, even if I don't actually want to turn him down. I just can't seem to say yes to those tactics. Lol. We started the course last night and so many deep emotions came up for him. I actually started to cry. I had no idea how he felt, and I don't think he really did until your course gave him the vocabulary to do so we weren't in a bad place at all. But hearing all of it brought up, I realized how much better it can be and will be. We've been together 15 years, through various life stages, and thanks to you, I know it's only going to get better. What you do is so important and so helpful. Thank you.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. How can we not share reviews when we get stuff like that? Like, these are seriously some of the coolest stories that we get to hear. So thank you so much for taking the time to share this with us.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, I mean, this is possible for you if you. If you follow along with, you know, what we. Our suggestions on initiation. Like this is possible in your relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[Zander Marin]

Yeah. Like it's almost like this emotional crescendo that doesn't require words. It just is like effortless and like something happens or some number of actions happen and then all of a sudden you're having sex.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So it's like, then when you do inevitably get to that phase of the relationship where it starts, starts to feel more complicated and tricky, like we're completely unprepared for how to handle it, which can just make it get so much more complicated and tricky.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah. Now I, you know, that does make me think the times that you do see initiation portrayed on TV and in the movies is usually only in the negative. Yeah, it's like portrayed showing how stale a relationship has gotten. Showing how like, bad initiation is basically one of the best and easiest ways, I think that usually very early on in a movie or a show, they will show to establish, oh, this is the phase of the relationship that this couple is in. Like, they can't even have sex because when someone tries to have sex, the other partner shuts them down or laughs at them or like, it's impossible because the kids are around. Like, you know, and so I think that we see all these negative examples of like, someone actually genuinely does try to initiate sex. And it's. And so we almost get this weird idea that like, oh, God, if you have to even try, that's probably a bad sign.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's get into the reasons why your initiation might not be working or the things that you're doing wrong.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, it's just not landing the way you want it to.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so first up, you're just not initiating period.

[Zander Marin]

And what was you're doing it like, you're trying to do it like they do in the movies.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Zander Marin]

By not doing it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Not at all. Well, we hear about this the most often is women in relationships with men. We hear a lot from the men saying, like, my partner never initiates. It's entirely on me. It's like all my responsibility. They won't do it. And I will say, like, this was me for a long time, even for the beginning of our relationship too. And for me, it came from this place of spending my whole life being socialized to believe that it's the man's job to initiate sex. It's the man's job to, like, be in the lead and be in control of the experience. And so even though rationally I didn't believe that or I didn't want to believe that, it still made it feel so much harder to actually follow through with the initiation. It just, I really had this feeling of like, I'm not supposed to do this. And not only am I not supposed to, but like, you wouldn't want that either. Like, you would want to be initiating. It would actually be a turn off to you or to, like, my other partners if I were to initiate.

[Zander Marin]

Like, you're doing me a favor by not doing it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, sort of. And it was also like, I have had a lot of experiences in past relationships of actually being the higher sex drive partner, which felt very embarrassing and shameful because it was again, another, like, it's not supposed to be like this. The guy is supposed to be the one who wants it more. And so having to initiate it felt like having to admit or acknowledge the reality of the relationship. Which just felt super undesirable. I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to draw attention to the fact that I want it more than he does.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah. So it's like by you doing it, it's like, I'm doing it because you didn't and therefore you don't want it as much as I do. Even though in reality it could just be like you wanted it in that moment, your partner wasn't thinking about it. Our next reason why your initiation might not be working is that it feels too random. So this is like you initiate and it totally catches your partner off guard. It just kind of feels like it comes out of nowhere, leaving them thinking like, you want to have sex right now. Like, there's no warmup at all. It's just kind of coming out of nowhere. I think this is so common. This is like a very common symptom of a long term relationship kind of starting to mature and people getting used to being together and living together. And it's kind of like it feels like the romance has disappeared and like you're like both living your lives in your own house, and all of a sudden one partner's just like, hey, wanna do it?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I think a lot of times what's going on here is like, you might have it in your head, hey, I wanna have sex with my partner. And you're kind of thinking about it, you're mulling it over, like, how do I initiate? Does it seem like they're in the mood or not? And it's like you've kind of been thinking about it for at least a couple minutes by the time that you come out with your initiation. So for you, it might not feel that random or maybe you were even like, pretty anxious initiating. So you've been thinking about it for a while, like working your do it. But for your partner, the experience is that it's just like out of nowhere. Like, there's no warmup. There's no like, connection we've had. We'll talk about that one in another minute. But it just feels like, wait, like I'm so caught off guard. It just feels too random. And it kind of dovetails nicely into our next one that we wanted to talk about, which is you initiate in inappropriate times. So these could really be the same thing. But I felt like they were. They're separate enough, the inappropriate times for us to give that one its own category. So this could be like, at times where it's not even possible to have sex in that moment. So you're initiating with your partner, even though, like, it's not gonna happen, and it leaves your partner feeling set up for failure in a way. I can think of a really egregious example of a time that I did this.

[Zander Marin]

Oh, yeah? Okay.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Zander Marin]

Let's hear it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Do you know what I'm thinking about early in our relationship?

[Zander Marin]

Oh, I don't know. Let's go.

[Vanessa Marin]

I initiated with Xander once when we were having a beach bonfire at night with a bunch of friends, and it was like, okay. I had not really eaten very much that day. We had. We were drinking a lot, and we were, like, 23 or something like that.

[Zander Marin]

There might have been a lot of alcohol.

[Vanessa Marin]

There was a lot of alcohol involved.

[Zander Marin]

More for you than for me.

[Vanessa Marin]

I was very drunk. I've always been a lightweight. It probably took, like, one drink to get me like that. But I was very drunk, and I got it in my head that I really wanted to have sex at the beach bonfire.

[Zander Marin]

Sex on the beach. You didn't want to have it at the bonfire. I mean, like, you wanted to have.

[Vanessa Marin]

It adjacent 15ft away. It was, like, not. There was no privacy in your.

[Zander Marin]

In your extremely drunk mind. You were very far away from everyone, and it was very private and romantic, and I had not had as much as you. It was not. Not that private or romantic to me.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And so it felt, like, really annoying and bothersome to you that I initiated in that way. Like, it just felt there was no way for you to win. Not. Win isn't even the right word. But, like, you know, if you obviously weren't going to say yes to me because we were in public around people that we knew, like, we could have been arrested for having sex in that way. So you obviously weren't gonna say yes. But I was also so drunkenly insistent on it that it was really frustrating and annoying to you. So that was my inappropriate time. But I think this can also happen in less egregious ways. But, like, maybe you're. This has also happened to us when it's like, we have to leave the house in five minutes to get somewhere where it's like, we can't. Like, we can't do. You know, it's just gonna be too stressful trying to have sex and get cleaned up and dressed and ready in five minutes. Like, it's just not gonna happen.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah. And I think when we say inapp, it's not necessarily. It's. We're not trying to say, if you are being accused of initiating in inappropriate moments that like, you're wrong and your partner is right. Like, there are definite shades of this. Someone might be like, oh, yeah, we have five minutes. To me, that's super hot. Trying to get it done in five minutes. I mean, I've done that before, like, very early on in my, in my sexual career. I feel like, I mean, honestly, I'd.

[Vanessa Marin]

Be down to do that more often. But you get a little stressed out about it.

[Zander Marin]

I've been changing. I've been changing in that regard. But no, but what I'm saying is that, you know, it's sort of like one person's inappropriate could be another person's random. Like, you know, it could be. We're not saying that you can't do that. It's just like there has to be some conversation about what types of situations do feel appropriate for initiation. What types of situations don't feel appropriate. Because I think with that, that like, five minutes before you have to go is a great example because one person might be like, yeah, that's super hot. I actually fantasize about that all the time. Like, I would love to do that. It just doesn't feel inappropriate to me. To me, it's like, this is me showing you how much I want you. I want you so bad that I want to try to do this right now and like, race against the clock. But the other person, like, and this is where the conversation is so important, is like, the other person can hear that and be like, okay, I understand that. I understand where you're coming from. And for me it feels, it feels disrespectful because to me, like, timeliness is really important. And I like, you know, when we're having sex, I like to be able to, like, take our time and know that we're both going to have an orgasm. And, you know, I'm just sort of making up reasons. But like, describe to you what it is like what that feeling is like in that moment and you know, describe how for you it feels impossible to oblige in that moment. So it's not like you're wrong, I'm right. It's just like understanding. Okay, so we each have different things that we want and so they're incompatible in this moment. So those are probably not good moments to initiate. So ultimately we just need to understand, you know, for each partner, like, what feel, what feel like appropriate times and what feel like inappropriate times.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[Zander Marin]

Our next category of ways you might be initiating wrong is that you're just not emotionally connected when one of you is initiating. And actually, 86% of our audience related to this idea of being annoyed when there's been no flirting or no affection being shown until it's time to initiate. So it's, it's. I mean, this is kind of along the lines of like initiating right in the moment or in a random moment where it feels like there's no. No effort made to create any kind of connection beforehand. Now, the challenge here, we talk about this a lot, how, you know, there are kind of two types of people in relationships. People who want to feel emotionally connected in order to feel open to having sex. And then on the flip side, there are people that feel connected emotionally after they have sex, so they want to have sex in order to feel emotionally connected. And very often in relationships, we have one of one type and one of the other type. So most often we get into this type of situation when, you know, the partner who is doing the initiating more is a wants to have sex in order to feel connection type. And their partner receiving the initiation wants to feel emotional connection first. And so it feels like, well, hey, like, I'm not open to having sex because it doesn't feel like there's any threat of connection. Or maybe it could even be like, it doesn't feel safe to have sex. Like, it doesn't feel like we're in a good place or a stable, solid place that I wanna be in in order to feel open to this next Up.

[Vanessa Marin]

We have. You initiate too often. This is what we call the spray and pray approach, where your approach is like, let me just initiate as many times as I can. Cause, hey, the more chances I give, the more likely I am to get a yes.

[Zander Marin]

Cast the net wide.

[Vanessa Marin]

Exactly. Yeah. Let me just do it as many times as I can. But actually, this can feel super annoying to your partner. It feels like a ton of pressure. It feels like you're not respecting their responses. It feels like you're not seeing or hearing them. Like, it can just. I mean, think about. It reminds me of that classic, like, you know, a kid yelling like, mom, Mom, Mom, Mom.

[Zander Marin]

Oh, this. This was. That was totally me. That was totally me as a kid, because, okay, for me, I grew up kind of in the woods. We did kinda. I grew up in the woods.

[Vanessa Marin]

Deep in the woods.

[Zander Marin]

Deep in the woods. We did not have cable tv, and even if there was cable offered on our street, I am 99% certain we would not have had it. I was really not allowed to watch TV other than watching movies. You know, VHS movies that, you know, someone had been nice enough to record for me, mostly my grandma. So, you know, I had a collection of VHS tapes, and that's all I wanted to do was watch movies. And it would be like, I feel like most mo. You know, on the weekends or when I wasn't in school. It was just like, multiple times today. Mom, can I watch a movie? Dad, can I watch a movie? Okay, how about now? How about now? Like, I'm sure I asked, like, 10 times a day and probably eventually wore them down and got a yes. So for me, that I was a spray and pray spray with your mom.

[Vanessa Marin]

I don't know about this, babe. It's really weird to bring an example with your mom.

[Zander Marin]

In watching movies, you brought up the example of a kid saying, mom, okay.

[Vanessa Marin]

We'Re just gonna move along. Why don't we go to our next one?

[Zander Marin]

All right, Our next one. There. There are no moms involved, thank God.

[Vanessa Marin]

Well, I mean, there might be, but I don't know.

[Zander Marin]

Let me say what it is, and then you can try to figure out how you could incorporate a mom into it. This one is that you've waited until the very end of the night. This is so common. Like, 91% of our Instagram audience said that they relate to this frustration. We have absolutely fallen into this trap for probably, like, the whole first half of our relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

People just have it in their heads that the end of the night is when sex happens. Like, oh, yeah, that's supposed to be it when you're, you know, the day is over, you brush your teeth, you wash your face, you're crawling into bed. Like that's supposed to be the time.

[Zander Marin]

I mean, we kind of create that pattern in a way in how we date. Like. Cause early on in a relationship, often you go out on a date, like go out to dinner or go out to a movie at night, then you come home and have sex together. The difference between that and crawling into bed after the end of a long work day and, you know, making dinner for the kids and putting them to bed. The main difference between those two situations is one, you are building emotional connection throughout that date. You've been excited about it all day long or maybe even for multiple days. So, like, it's a totally different scenario. Like, you're excited about the fact you're already thinking all day and probably all throughout the date, like, ooh, are we gonna go back and do it later? Versus crawling into bed at the end of a long day. Sex is probably the last thing on most people's mind. They're like, oh my God, get me to sleep. If I can go to sleep in the next 10 minutes, I can get seven and a half hours of sleep. And at that point, like, you've already lost if you're trying to initiate because then, then you're just forcing that mental calculus of how many hours of sleep. Okay, if we do like, then okay, down to seven, how am I gonna feel on seven hours of sleep? You know, like that kind of thing. And that sucks.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's just such a tricky time. I think that's one of the worst times to have sex. And look, I get that everybody's schedule is different. For a lot of people, they don't have very much time, you know, together alone, where they could be having sex. But even if you can prioritize one thing over it, like, we have sex and then we brush our teeth, we have sex and then we wash our faces, we have sex and then we fold that last load of laundry, like, do something afterwards. Don't have the sex. Be the very, very last thing. It's just such a hard time.

[Zander Marin]

I mean, because another thing, I just, you know, I'm thinking about our own, you know, what it looks like when we go to bed. It's like a whole wind down routine. Like the, you know, we do the same things every night. Like, and I have, you know, I've created the habit, the muscle memory basically of like, oh, you know, all right, I take the dogs out. I Go brush my teeth. I wash my face. And I'm throughout all of that, I'm telling myself, okay, we're, like, going to get tired now. We're starting to shut down. Like, we're about to go to sleep. And so then, like, trying to throw this wrench in of, like, oh, but maybe. Maybe we'll do sex, too, is like, you're kind of, like, setting yourself up for a loss because some. You know, there's all this research showing that, like. Like, you know, certain, like, nighttime routines are really beneficial to you actually falling asleep and, you know, building that habit of going to sleep at the same time.

[Vanessa Marin]

We actually had sex as the very last thing at very end of the night last week, though.

[Zander Marin]

We planned it.

[Vanessa Marin]

I know, but I hated it and made me. I was so awake afterwards. Like, ugh, what did I do? I couldn't go to sleep after. Okay, next category is. You didn't initiate in a skillful way. Like I said earlier, none of us ever learned how to initiate, so it makes sense that we're not initiating in skillful ways. But let's break this down. I would say there are, like, two general categories of unskillful initiation. First up, we have a lazy, and then we have unsexy. So lazy initiation is the, like, want to do it? I guess it's been a while. We probably should. It's just that, like. Or you start, you know, you give the, like, fake back massage. It just, you know, it feels like zero effort.

[Zander Marin]

Or it could even. It could even be the, like, you know, you turn off the light is right before bed. You turn off a light, and then you start, like, doing the, like, a little booty scoot. Yeah, the booty scoot. Like, you know that one, too. Like, where it's like. Like, really? That's, like, the only effort you're gonna put in?

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, Then we have unsexy, which is boob honking. Random genital grabbing. Except if you're Xander, because he likes that. Dumb jokes. Helicoptering. Like, you know, what's helicoptering, babe? Do people not know what helicoptering is, do you think?

[Zander Marin]

I mean, I would say helicopter penis.

[Vanessa Marin]

Helicopter penis. When he's, like, swinging it around, you know, just swinging it around in the air. Guys really think that just swinging your dick around is gonna get us excited?

[Zander Marin]

I mean, to be fair, you get a kick out of it. Not a sexy kick.

[Vanessa Marin]

Not a sexy kick.

[Zander Marin]

You get a kick just out of the male genitalia and, like, how exposed.

[Vanessa Marin]

It is and how I'm always worried about it.

[Zander Marin]

Like, whipping around.

[Vanessa Marin]

And I'm just always worried about it. I think it's getting smashed.

[Zander Marin]

You got some glee out of just the things that it can do.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yes. But you. If you were just to come up to me and helicopter your penis around, that's not gonna get me going to want to have sex with you. Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. And humping. Like, humping. Ugh. God. Just the coming up behind you. Just humping you. Ugh. So many people are initiating this way, and it just. It's not fun. I think what we forget is that initiation is supposed to feel like an invitation. It's supposed to feel like something your partner wants to say yes to. And just coming up behind your partner and humping them, like, that's not exciting. It's not sexy. It's not intimate. It's nothing other than annoying.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, I mean, I think the reason why most people not. Sorry, I don't mean most people are doing these unsexy initiations, but most people who do unsexy initiations, the reason behind that is just a general discomfort with verbal initiation or with clear initiation, like, you know, with a dumb joke or, you know, boob honk or whatever, there's plausible deniability. Like, if. If your partner says no, it's like, oh, well, obviously I was just joking. Or I'm just saying, right? Like, I think that we guard ourselves. Initiation feels so vulnerable, even though we have this idea that, you know, oh, men are supposed to know how to handle rejection, and they're the ones who are supposed to initiate. Oh, they have no problem with that. Like, even people who initiate all the time feel super vulnerable about it. We hear from men all the time who are like, oh, my partner turned me down, like, a number of times, and now I just, like, won't do. Do it anymore. Like, I won't. Like, I. I can't handle the rejection anymore. And so, you know, before people get to that point, I think they start to resort to these more lazy or unsexy ways, because it's like, you know, you're not really having to, like, you know, kind of go out on the ledge, per se, and expose yourself. You're just kind of like, oh, let's see if that works. Oh, no, I was joking. I was joking. Yeah, no one's trying to actually do that. Why would I want to have sex with you?

[Vanessa Marin]

So, obviously, we all need to learn how to initiate sex more skillfully. This was something I had to learn. Again, there's no shame around this. I didn't know how to Initiate?

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, she used to just come up and hump me.

[Vanessa Marin]

I used to helicopter you all the time with my boobs.

[Zander Marin]

Hey, if you could, if you could get them. Yeah, if you could get them going in opposite directions, I would be impressed. I might not be turned on, but I would be impressed. Sure. I'd probably get turned on eventually.

[Vanessa Marin]

So if you are looking for more skillful ways to initiate, we'll just put another little plug for the art of initiation. We have 61 different ways to initiate and we also have a whole initiation styles model in that guide too that breaks down for you our six different styles that we've come up with. It's kind of like the love languages. This idea that we all like to give and receive love in different way. Like we all like to have sex initiated in different ways. So we need to understand our own language and communicate that to our partner so that we understand how to turn each other on, how to get each other going.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, because there actually is one type that may possibly, possibly sometimes respond better to some of these unsexy words.

[Vanessa Marin]

I am that type though, and I'm not, I'm not into these. But yeah, you can check out that [e-mail] initiation or the link will be in the show notes too. If you're a pet parent like us, you need to know about Chewy. They have literally everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy. We have been using Chewy for our pugs, Chauncey and Maggie for a couple months and we keep discovering new things that we can get through Chewy. So they have all the usual stuff that you normally think of, like treats and food, food and toys and all that kind of stuff. But we've really been having such a great experience with their prescriptions. Oh yeah, our vet actually recommended that we do Chewy originally to get a shot that Maggie needs and now we've been getting it for her allergy meds as well. It's just been so easy, so fast. We've been shocked by the savings too. Like our vet even said, order through Chewy, it's cheaper, don't get it through us. So Chewy has everything you need. And top tier 247 customer service. They have an incredible auto ship feature, so you can get all of your essentials delivered to you whenever you need them. Their shipping is shockingly fast and they have a hundred percent satisfaction guarantee. You can return anything within a year, no questions asked. We are so in love with Chewy and we're excited for you to Try them too. Chewy has everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy. And right now, you can save $20 on your first order and get free shipping by going to chewy.compillows. that's chewy.compillows. to save $20 on your first order with free shipping. Chewy.compillows minimum purchase required. New customers only. Terms and conditions apply. See site for complete details.

[Zander Marin]

Our next reason why initiation might not be working so well for you is that you're just not being obvious enough. We hear about this the most coming from men who are in relationships with women. And so men who are talking about, okay, when my partner initiates with me, like, they're not using their words or they're being really vague. I can't tell if they actually want to. I can't tell if they're actually talking about sex or something else. So it's like, it's either it's vague or it's lazy in a way of being like. Of like, you're kind of teeing it up for your partner to finish the job. Like, oh, oh, like, oh, do you want to have sex? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's like. It's like kind of the. A different type of lazier plot. Like, I was talking about the plausible deniability on the last category of, like, oh, well, I was just making a joke. Like, I wasn't actually initiating. It's kind of the same thing, but the other way around. Like, the partner is being really vague. And so if they're, you know, if the guy picks up on it and it's like, oh, oh. So, like, do you want to have sex? It's like, okay, great, it worked. But if it doesn't. If they don't pick up on that, then it's almost like, well, no one actually initiated, so no one had to say no.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, yeah. We hear this just all the time from men. They're like, be more obvious. You are not being obvious.

[Zander Marin]

Like, yeah, when we pull men, the. Like, this is. I think this is really interesting. There's obviously a lot of different types of, you know, ways that we like sex to be initiated. But one of the biggest findings that we've had in all the research that we've done is that the very vast majority of men love clear and direct initiation. I think that amongst women, there's a much bigger variance of, like, what types of kind of energy or style they prefer to be initiated in. And that's not to, like, direct initiation can take on all kinds of different energies and vibes still. But, like, when it comes to whatever way you're gonna do it, the vast majority of men really like just a super clear and direct, not leaving anything to the imagination or leaving anything up to chance kind of approach. But it's good. Would be good to check that with your partner because, you know, there's always gonna be exceptions to that rule. We never wanna be like, oh, yeah, if you're with a man, just do this. Because there's never one answer. And he probably is gonna prefer. Might prefer a whole different, you know, different types of direct initiation. He might like a verbal direct initiation or a physical direct initiation or all kinds of things.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I forgot to mention at the beginning of this episode that this is another great one. I mean, we designed so many podcast episodes to be this way, but to listen to with your partner where you can, you know, listen to each category, pause it, have a little conversation between the two of you. Because, like, Xander's saying everybody's different, everybody's unique. You might totally disagree with some of our advice, some of our thoughts here, but it's really just designed to get that conversation open between the two of you. Okay. I want to talk about you pressuring your partner with your initiation.

[Zander Marin]

I thought you were going to talk about me for a second. I want to talk about you pressuring.

[Vanessa Marin]

Pressuring. You're pressuring me. No, I mean, the unfortunate reality is that a lot of partners are being very pressure y with their initiation.

[Zander Marin]

Different shades of pressure y. Yeah, like from, like, kind of like manipulative to probably, like, not realizing that what they're doing is kind of manipulative or pressuring.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, There really can be a lot of shades to this. Sometimes this can also look like begging, too, or like, negotiating or pleading. Like, come on. Well, just a hand job at least. Or just do this at least. Or it's been so long though, or I'm so tired. Like, you know, that kind of. Yeah. Really trying to goad your partner into doing it.

[Zander Marin]

Wait. I'm so tired.

[Vanessa Marin]

I don't know where. I'm so tired.

[Zander Marin]

I'm so tired I have to have sex. Well, for you, actually. You were just complaining about. We had sex before bed the other night. It kept you up. I'm so tired. Just fuck me. It's the only way I can wake up. Hold the caffeine. Give me some sex.

[Vanessa Marin]

My energy is going into healing my face right now. My brain's not at full capacity, but, you know, partner pressuring you. So, I mean, this Is a. This is a tricky one, because the vast majority of these situations, it's a go straight to couples therapy, do not pass go, do not collect $200 kind of situation. But we don't want it to mention it because this is important to talk about. Yeah. The bottom line here is, look, you are allowed to ask for sex. You are totally allowed to do that. Like, you have sexual needs. You want to connect with your partner. You want to feel close to them. You want to experience pleasure and intimacy and joy. Like, wanting to have sex, your partner is not a bad thing. You're allowed to have that, and you're allowed to express that to your partner whenever you want, as long as it's done respectfully.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah. And you're allowed to have feelings if your partner. If you wanted something and your partner declined.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Like, that always sucks. If you ask for something you want and your partner's not open to it or any other person is not open to any other request that you had or need that you express. Like, that always sucks. It always hurts. But your partner is allowed to say no to sex whenever they want to, for whatever reason. For no reason. Like, it's their body. They get to decide what they want to do with it. So it's not okay to make them feel guilty, to make them feel bad, to make them, like, second guess their decision. Like Xander said, you're allowed to have those feelings about it, but you're not allowed to create pressure. So, again, like, if you're in a situation in your relationship where it feels like there's a lot of pressure around initiation, you guys are fighting about it. We definitely recommend that you go to couples therapy. But we. We wanted to mention this one or the very least.

[Zander Marin]

I think the first step is making sure your partner understands that whatever they are doing to you is coming across as pressure. Because I do think that with this. With this category, there can be a. A high potential for misunderstanding. And I think that, you know, what. What. What one partner may be doing in initiating, they might think that they're being, like, funny or silly or doing something that. That maybe you guys laughed about sometime in the past, and they're continuing to do it, and to you now, it's coming off as pressure. But for them, like, they. They just. They think, like, oh, wait, well, like, this is something that we have done before that, like, you laughed about, or, like, I thought I was just, like, making a funny joke, not realizing that it was pressure. So, yeah, it's not like, oh, if this is happening, your partner's trying to manipulate you. I mean, I think that you kind of have to gauge for yourself, like, are they doing this with a manipulative spirit? In which case, like, you just got to go to couples there. Like, you're not going to be like, hey, I want you to stop being manipulative.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Zander Marin]

And your partner's like, oh, I've been caught. Okay, I'll stop. But I do think that it is very likely that if, you know, I were to hear from you, hey, this thing that you've been doing a lot has been actually feeling, like, a lot of pressure for me, and I'm like, oh, my God. I had no idea. I thought I was being funny or silly or, like, goofy. And, you know, because, like, I know for us, like, goofiness is important, but I didn't. I didn't realize that it was coming off that way for you. I'm going to moderate my approach.

[Vanessa Marin]

All right, and let's bring it on home with you didn't read the room.

[Zander Marin]

This is. This is a phrase that I think a lot of people can relate.

[Vanessa Marin]

Read the room.

[Zander Marin]

Read the room, buddy.

[Vanessa Marin]

So you're initiating when the time just is not right. 68% of our audience said that this was a common initiation annoyance for them. And one of the most frequent examples they brought up is being interrupted when they were in the middle of something. For a lot of people, it left this feeling of just not being seen. Like, did my partner not realize that I was in the middle of doing something? I was doing something for them. I was doing something for our family, doing something for the household? This came up a lot around chores, and this one gets really tricky and complicated because it also loops into, like, mental load imbalances or responsibility imbalances. Like, one partner saying, I'm doing all the work around the house, and then my partner comes and tries to initiate while I'm in the middle of doing the dishes.

[Zander Marin]

It feels like a slap in the face.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, exactly. Like, they don't even recognize how much I'm doing. I get resentful and frustrated with them because it reminds me in that moment of, like, I'm doing way more than they are. So it obviously can get very tricky. But this was such a common complaint that people brought up this feeling of, like, yeah, it feels like, you know, my partner is just not seeing me at all. They just see a body that's there for them to go initiate with rather than really paying attention to. Like, what's my vibe? What's my energy? What am I doing right now?

[Zander Marin]

And this one differs a bit from. Because, like, early on, we talked about, like, initiating in inappropriate times. I think this one is a little different because it could be that it literally is an inappropriate time. It could also be like, it's an inappropriate emotional moment or like, it's inappropriate based on, like, what, you know, the way that things are feeling between us. Or like, hey, we're, like, literally in the middle of an argument. Like, I've just expressed to you how upset I am about something, and, you know, like, we haven't closed that out and now you're initiating with me. So, yeah, I think that there can be, like, a sort of a physical component of, like, okay, yeah, this is like, you didn't read the room that, like, I'm, literally, like, in the middle of a chore, or, like, I'm, like, literally walking out the door. Or it could be like, yeah, like, you didn't read the energy between us. This is a clearly inappropriate time.

[Vanessa Marin]

There's also what we call, like, the interruption conundrum that comes into play here, which I think we talked about, like, a couple of episodes back as well. Like, for some people, being interrupted when you're in the middle of something reads as very rude. Like, can't you see? I'm obviously in the middle of something? Whereas for other people, this could actually be really hot.

[Zander Marin]

Huge turn on.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. This feeling of, like, I can't wait another second to have you. I know that you have your hands full, or I know you're in the middle of this, but, like, I have to have you right now.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, that could feel like it's funny because that could feel super invalidating or extremely validating.

[Vanessa Marin]

I know. So it's a perfect example of something that couples need to talk about with each other, to ask each other, like, yeah, are you open to me initiating? When you are in the middle of something, does that feel hot and sexy to you, or does that feel rude and disrespectful to you? So this is actually something that we go over a lot in the art of initiation. We have something that we call our ideal conditions.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah. We walk people through this. This is, like, one of the first things that we do in that course. And I think that this is, like, so eye opening for so many couples.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. It's a series of questions similar to, like, yeah, are you open to it being initiated when you're in the middle of something? To really walk you through these specific scenarios and examples so you guys can very, very quickly and easily get on the same page about when you like sex to be initiated and when you don't.

[Zander Marin]

Yeah, it's like, not only just about, like, are you, yes or no okay with this, but it's an opportunity for you to talk about this is what it would feel like for me. And because I think that it's important to know, like, yes or no, is this a good idea or a bad idea? But I think what's even more valuable is the understanding of how do both people actually feel about this. It's just, it's so helpful if it's. Yeah, it's like one partner is like, yeah, this feels like really disrespectful for me to like, you know, to interrupt me when I'm in the middle of something and the other partner says, oh, man, like, I didn't realize that for me, the idea of that, you know, like, if you were to do that to me, it would feel super hot and feel like, oh, you just can't, like, you can't wait to have me. You can't keep your hands off of me. And so when I'm doing that, you know, I'm trying to show you love in that way. Like, I am, like, I'm so ravenous for you that I can't help myself. And so it's not like, you know, it's not like the other partner's gonna be like, oh, now that I know that, like, I'm on board. But it just opens up the door for more understanding and figuring out, okay, is this something that maybe we could work on? Or is this something where it's like, okay, we just want to say this is not a situation that we want to get into.

[Vanessa Marin]

All right, well, we've now gone over all the ways that initiation might be causing a strain on your relationship. But if you want to help get initiation back to being exciting, a source of connection, playful and intimate.

[Zander Marin]

Because it can. Not only can it, it should be.

[Vanessa Marin]

It should. Then we definitely invite you to check. Check out the art of initiation that is going to help you learn practical ways to create and sustain more emotional intimacy. Why differing libidos don't need to stop you from experiencing the intimacy you both deserve. And how skillful initiation can actually bridge the gap of mismatched libidos. How to confidently know and express exactly what turns you on. Those game changing initiation questions you never knew to ask. Confidence building hacks that will get you initiating with ease. The secret to staying connected, even if one of you isn't open to having sex in a particular moment and so much more. So we will put the link for that in the show notes, or you can go straight to vmtherapy.com initiation to check it out.

[Zander Marin]

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We drop new episodes every Thursday.