The Legal Battle Against DEI and Gender Ideology Has Begun (Marcella Burke Esq.) | Ep. 513

Summary

Pints With Aquinas – Ep. 513

The Legal Battle Against DEI and Gender Ideology Has Begun (Marcella Burke, Esq.)
Date: March 6, 2025
Host: Matt Fradd
Guest: Marcella Burke, Esq.

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Overview

In this deeply informative and personal episode, Matt Fradd sits down with Catholic attorney Marcella Burke to discuss the emerging legal battles against DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) mandates and gender ideology practices in the United States—particularly focusing on the defense of medical whistleblowers and the increasing wave of detransitioner lawsuits. Burke shares her own journey from a commercial environmental law background to becoming a prominent defender in high-profile culture war legal cases, offering insight into ongoing litigation, the inner workings of hospitals and corporate America, the experiences of whistleblowers and detransitioners, and the spiritual and cultural implications at play.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marcella Burke’s Unexpected Legal Path

[02:40]

• Originally, Marcella planned a career focused on commercial litigation and environmental law.
• The culture in big law firms became increasingly inhospitable to representing clients accused of “controversial” issues, including defending against climate change-related claims and, later, DEI-related employment complaints.
• Marcella’s own law firm (Burke Law Group) was launched with a “just lawyers, no agenda” mission—but very quickly, she was approached by whistleblower Dr. Eithan Heim (via Chris Rufo) needing urgent legal defense in a transgender medical intervention case.
• Her firm has since grown rapidly and now takes on many such high-profile cases.

“We had decided we weren’t going to take on big cultural cases ... but it was only a few weeks in when Chris Rufo called about a whistleblower at Texas Children’s Hospital.” — Marcella Burke [06:37]

2. The Legal Odyssey of Medical Whistleblowers

[07:24]

• Dr. Eithan Heim, a surgeon at Texas Children’s, exposed the hospital for secretly performing transgender procedures on minors despite public denials.
• Instead of investigating the hospital, the government (DOJ/FBI) targeted Dr. Heim with HIPAA-related criminal prosecution.
• His legal ordeal included indictments with the potential for years in prison, and personal hardships (e.g., missing his honeymoon, arraigned the day after his child’s birth).

“The prosecutor said the true victims are the hospitals and the doctors who are unable to perform these procedures ... She told us, ‘I’ll get him on a technicality if I have to.’” — Marcella Burke [14:18]

• Heim’s resistance emboldened more whistleblowers nationally; Burke’s firm now represents many such insiders from hospitals across the country.

3. Inside the Gender Medicine Industry

[17:32]

• Burke describes in detail:
  • The spectrum of medical interventions (hormone therapy, puberty blockers, surgical mutilations like mastectomy, phalloplasty).
  • The often fraudulent Medicaid/TRICARE billing practices of hospitals.
  • The reality (not metaphor) of lifelong physical, psychological, and societal consequences for affected youth.

“They call it a metaphysical pause ... but what it does is it interferes with the hypothalamus and stops all hormonal development. If you start at age 11, you’ll have the body of an 11-year-old boy for life.” — Marcella Burke [19:03]

• Many patients and families entrust themselves to the “white coat” authority of doctors—often with catastrophic, irreversible results.
• Detransitioners face social isolation, job loss, and legal harassment, but are now forming a movement akin to post-abortion regret witnesses.

4. The Coming Tsunami of Litigation

[53:50]

• Burke outlines state and federal legal frameworks for holding doctors, hospitals, and administrators accountable—highlighting Medicaid fraud statutes, criminal liability for illegal surgeries, and the strategy of using whistleblower and False Claims Act cases.
• Potential settlements and damages could be immense (“the average kid could mean $3 million in damages for a hospital” [54:03]), and criminal exposure is real.
• European countries, having debunked many of the “suicide or surgery” studies, have largely prohibited these practices; the U.S. is catching up.

“We’re actually winning ... I think in 10 years, it will be anathema ... There are very few lawyers in America taking these cases.” — Marcella Burke [55:49]

5. DEI Mandates and Corporate Lawfare

[73:22]

• Supreme Court precedent now prohibits discrimination for or against any category (including whites, Asians, Christians) in hiring, promotion, or admissions.
• Many major corporations are quietly backing away from DEI programs to preempt massive class-action lawsuits for reverse discrimination.
• “Smoking gun” evidence (explicit statements of illegal racial or religious preference) makes for easy, high-damages cases.

“Everything is a smoking gun. We don’t take complicated cases. ‘Show me the email that says it’s because you’re white.’” — Marcella Burke [74:38]

• Employees refusing to comply with compelled “preferred pronoun” training or public statements can, and should, assert their rights.

6. The Power of Community and Spirituality

[29:16–42:47]

• Marcella shares her own story of conversion as a troubled teen, her encounters with holy priests and youth ministers, and the impact of Christian community.
• She draws a parallel between the fake community/rituals of gender ideology and the authentic belonging offered by the Church.
• She recounts ministering personally to detransitioners (including hiring one as her research assistant) and guiding them towards church life, adoration, and a renewed sense of identity.

“I reached out when Father Bill passed with the monstrance and touched his tassel ... I truly believe I was healed in that moment. There was a profound healing, and I knew exactly who I was.” — Marcella Burke [34:09]

7. The Role of X (Twitter) in Breaking Isolation

[81:09]

• Social media, especially X (formerly Twitter), allows whistleblowers and victims to bypass establishment media, find supportive networks, organize legal defense, and expose wrongdoing.
• X has interceded legally on behalf of Dr. Heim and Marcella to protect free speech rights when the DOJ attempted to “gag” them from posting case details.

8. Practical Advice, Hope, and the Road Ahead

• Parents worried about school curricula (“gender ideology in Catholic schools as young as age 3”) must act decisively to protect children—even if it means moving states [66:01].
• Detransitioner, whistleblower, or discrimination victim? Marcella encourages reaching out to her law firm or similar networks for support and potential legal recourse.
• Both DEI and trans medical interventions are in retreat due to legal, social, and political resistance—Burke is optimistic real cultural change is underway.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On her reputation as a lawyer:
  “She’s this really serious Catholic lady with a rosary in one hand and a middle finger in the other.” — Quoting Dr. Heim, as told on Tucker Carlson [61:19]
• On the consequences for whistleblowers:
  “We’ve had to hire security at our home ... but it’s nothing compared to what these kids are going through.” — Marcella Burke [00:36, 55:28]
• On DEI lawsuits:
  “You can’t bear false witness. It’s not complicated. Don’t lie.” — Marcella Burke [75:18]
• On parent responsibility:
  “If your state’s going to take your child, you move. You pack the car, and you move.” [66:56]
• On gender ideology’s spiritual perversion:
  “It’s a real perversion of what identity is ... You can escape this natural restlessness by changing your body. But it’s all a bunch of lies. Like every lie, there’s a modicum of truth that’s been twisted.” — Marcella Burke [21:14]
• On hope for change:
  “I think we’re winning on this ... in 10 years it’ll be anathema.” — Marcella Burke [00:08, 55:49]

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Important Timestamps

• Marcella’s background, career change: [02:40–07:00]
• The Dr. Heim whistleblower case: [07:00–14:06]
• Government/prosecutorial targeting of whistleblowers: [14:06–16:55]
• Gender medical interventions & their effects: [17:32–22:44]
• Detransitioners & their movement: [24:11–24:57]
• Spiritual journey and community anecdotes: [29:16–42:47]
• Lawsuit mechanics, False Claims Act & hospital fraud: [53:50–54:03]
• DEI lawsuit wave & how to fight back at work: [73:22–75:20]
• Power of social media/X (Twitter) for dissent: [81:09–86:41]
• Advice to parents, employees, and victims: [66:01, 94:42, 115:03]
• Hope for turning tides in law and culture: [99:05–101:51, 110:41–111:03]

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• The tide may be turning against both gender ideology in medicine and coercive DEI structures in the workplace.
• Courageous whistleblowers, detransitioners, and allied professionals are forming networks—and legal precedents are accumulating against these institutional abuses.
• Christians and others are called to small acts of resistance and truth-telling, but also to hospitality, prayer, and open arms for those wounded by these ideologies.
• The legal work is difficult and risky, but, as Marcella asserts, “someone needs to be the adult in the room who’s willing to say no and to stand athwart the lies.”

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For legal assistance or connection to her network:
Burke Law Group
Marcella Burke also recommends resources like Alliance Defending Freedom for pro bono or allied legal advocacy.

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This summary is intended to serve both as a detailed guide to this important episode, and as a resource for those seeking hope, understanding, or help in the face of the current cultural battles around DEI and gender ideology.

Transcript

[Marcella Burke]

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI [e-mail] that's R U B R-I K.com I think we're winning on this. We're winning on the transgender thing. I think in 10 years, it will be ananthema. President Trump has said in his campaign he's going to make this illegal. There's very few lawyers in America taking these cases. And it's like, are you going to rise to the occasion? You know, are you going to defend this whistleblower and do whatever you can? Tucker had him on the show. God Bless Tucker Carlson. Dr. Phil had him on the show. Jordan Peterson. Tucker said, you know, how did you find a lawyer to take this case? You know, how did you find this person? And he said, oh, Marcella, she's this really serious Catholic lady with a rosary in one hand and a middle finger in the other. And that's how he described me. And there have been sleepless nights. You know, we've had to hire security at our home. We've had, you know, threats and all this type of stuff, but really, it's. It's nothing compared to what these kids are going through.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, so we first have to acknowledge, well, this isn't new for you, but this is not my studio. We're building a brand new studio in Florida, and Dr. Han has kindly allowed me to use it. This is way more professional than what you would have gotten if the heat hadn't have died in my building.

[Marcella Burke]

Well, it's a pleasure to be here.

[Matt Fradd]

It's lovely to meet you.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, it's great. Thank you. Dr. Han.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. And Jason Everett. So I had Jason on the show, and he was saying you have to have Marcella on. So give us a real quick. Who is Marcella Burke, for those who don't know?

[Marcella Burke]

Sure. I'm a lawyer in Houston. I have my own law firm. We're in Houston, Austin, Washington, Lafayette, Louisiana, and la, and growing mother of four boys. And I've taken a couple of cases that have flared up and become of national import, and those are on sort of hot topics of culture like DEI and transgender. So thanks for having me to just catch up.

[Matt Fradd]

It's great to have you on. So tell me about the. So when you started your own law firm, you weren't thinking, I want to go. Or maybe you were, I want to go to bat for those who are being persecuted wrongly, in the sense of the dei, transgender stuff. Or did that just suddenly kind of accidentally appear on your radar and that became what you're known for?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, that was not the plan. That was the opposite of the plan, actually. There's a number of us who were lawyers and these big global law firms, and we have sort of commercial practices. So I'm an environmental lawyer by trade. I do crisis management, fires, floods, blowouts, mostly for construction, oil and gas, trucking, incident response. And if the government or sort of these environmental groups are at your factory gates, you call me. And we manage that. Lots of litigation. And then we have commercial corporate mergers and acquisitions, real estate, commercial agreements. So just commercial corporate and litigation work. And that was the plan. And in some of these big firms, even those topics are too controversial. The climate change movement has taken over some of these firms, and even being able to take cases, defending clients against claims about climate change and those types of things became controversial and started really affecting my practice and my ability to represent clients. Also had clients who had been negatively affected by DE and I being told things like, I got demoted or fired because I'm white or because I'm Christian, and we're looking for this or that. Those are just flagrantly illegal things, and started representing some clients in the bigger firms on those matters. And that became very controversial. And then the pronoun movement in some of these firms happened, and having to have pronouns on your bio or on your signature became an issue. Or we have a call after the Dobbs decision came out, which is the decision that overturned Roe versus Wade, and I was the only female equity partner in Texas at my firm at the time. And, you know, HR is calling. Why aren't you on the group calls about what we're going to do about Dobbs? It's like, well, I would be happy to join the call and tell the group what I think about Dobbs. And so just became, I'm a big believer in freedom of association. And. And so it wasn't personal, like, oh, Marcella, we don't like you as a person. But at some point, it became not a good fit, and it was obvious that it wasn't going to be a good fit. And I was interviewing at other firms, and I had six other offers to continue having this practice in these firms that in a lot of ways, it just isn't a good fit. And I came home one day from interviewing. I almost accepted another offer to be the managing partner of a Houston office of another global firm. And my husband said, actually, I incorporated Burke Law Group at the Texas Secretary of State. And you're going to start your own law firm, and people will join you and your clients will follow you. I'm sure of it. And so I called some of my clients and some of the guys on my team and at other firms. We've been talking about this for years, and sure enough, seven people started the firm with me. That was about two years ago, and we have 16 lawyers now, and we're growing. And so we'll have a group starting in January, in the new year, and we'll continue to grow. So it's very exciting. These particular cases, we had decided we weren't going to take on big cultural cases, that the brand of our firm wasn't going to be that we're going to be these fire brands. It was going to be just good lawyers with great credentials that are zealous advocates for your commercial interests and lawyers being lawyers. And there's a demand in the market. A lot of companies are just looking for lawyers that don't have an agenda. And there's a demand in the legal services market where lawyers just want to be lawyers. And so let's just fill that space and start this boutique and see if it can grow. And it was really only a few weeks into the firm starting where I'm on, and I'm onboarding all my clients, and we're really hustling to launch and to get my lawyers on boarded and all the paperwork and all these things. And I got a phone call from a man named Christopher Ruffo, and he is an investigative journalist. And he says, marcela, this is Chris Rufo. And I'd never heard of Chris Rufo. And so I'm like, yes, who are you? And he's like, well, I'm a journalist, and I'm working with a whistleblower, and he needs a lawyer. Have you heard of Dr. Aton Heim? And I had heard of Dr. Heim because I'm in Houston, and he was a surgeon at Texas Children's Hospital, the largest children's hospital in the world, headquartered in Houston. And he had the hospital had said that they were not performing transgender intervention surgeries or procedures on minors. And he was a doctor there, and he knew that wasn't true. And so he had blown the whistle. And instead of the government investigating the hospital, he had the FBI at his front door.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow. How did he blow the whistle? How did he get that information out.

[Marcella Burke]

So he spoke to, he went to different journalists, and this is all on the public record. And Christopher Ruffo is who got back to him. And then he went to the Texas attorney general and he told the attorney general what was going on. And so that those are the sort of process that he followed. And the information he gave was fully redacted. Didn't have any personal information of the patients, but just proved that these things were happening at the hospital. And so what the government came back to him with was an indictment to threaten to put him in jail for 10 years under a novel theory of HIPAA, which is a law that protects patient information. And so we've been defending him now for almost those two years. But at the time when I got the call from Chris Rufo, I thought, well, I can't take this case.

[Matt Fradd]

And so why did you think that?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, first it was just, I don't know if I have the bandwidth. We're still onboarding our clients. We're doing other stuff. It's a criminal case. I didn't have a white collar lawyer. We'd have to find a white collar person to help us co counsel. And it just seemed like it was just way too big and way, way out of my area of expertise. Now I do crisis management, so I could help Dr. Heim put a team together, but I didn't think that I could be the firm that actually did it. And I called one of my partners and he had been at Department of Justice and he had worked in the Medicaid fraud division. And part of what's come out from these cases with these whistleblowers is that not only the hospitals doing these procedures, but they are using fraudulent coding to get around the state law. So if they cannot bill under Medicaid or Tricare, the government, you know, the military, insurance for, say, gender dysphoria and then giving hormones or puberty blockers, well, they'll diagnose the child with something they don't have, but that would require the same prescriptions. And then so it's a fraudulent billing scheme. And so one of my partners does have a lot of experience in fraud and this type of fraud. And I called him and he said, marcella, we can take these cases. We need to find a white collar guy to defend against the indictment, but we definitely can take the substance of the merits of the case. It's like, okay. So I started calling around, trying to find lawyers to help take the criminal defense piece. And I just, one after the other couldn't find anyone to take it. My law firm will never let me take it. My law firm will never let me take it. So confronting those same issues we see in law firms all the time. And so the whole culture of the law being, well, lawyers can just be zealous advocates for their clients, even in controversial, unpopular opinions is sort of gone from some of these big firms. And so we sure enough found a lawyer called Mark Lytle, who's a former prosecutor, and then Ryan Patrick, who's the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Texas, where this took place, and they both said that they would take the case. So that was a huge. I mean, a miracle, really. And so we had suddenly a team. And so there's no excuse at that point to not take it.

[Matt Fradd]

Were you nervous about it not just because you didn't have a lawyer on staff and that you already had a lot of clients, but were you nervous about this becoming too controversial and the blowback that you get from it?

[Marcella Burke]

I wasn't nervous about that. That did seem inevitable. Of course, it was more, can I do a good job representing him and actually get him out of this conundrum?

[Matt Fradd]

I interrupted you earlier, but I was surprised to hear you said he blew the whistle. And rather than the FBI or whoever going to the hospital, the FBI showed up at his front door. What happened there?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, it was actually on his graduation day. He was out of medical school in his residency. He'd already accepted a job at a hospital in North Dallas. So he's on his way out, and he had blown the whistle while he was still there. And it was on. He had a loud knock at the door, and he was preparing for the big graduation ceremony. His family's all in town, and he opens the door, and his wife is in the back getting ready. And he lets these two officers in, and they have cameras, and they're setting up cameras, and they're saying, we want to interview you and talk to you. And his wife comes out, and he said he knew what it was about, but he had nothing to hide. So he's like, well, yeah, I'll tell you everything I know. And his wife is an attorney, and she is actually an assistant U.S. attorney. And so she's very familiar with this process. And she says, oh, no, we need to talk to a lawyer, and you guys need to give us your business cards. And thank you so much. We're happy to cooperate, but you can leave.

[Matt Fradd]

Good thing she was there, huh?

[Marcella Burke]

Good thing she was there. And so they leave, and they called Chris, because at this point, he just whistleblown. But the idea would be, well, the government's going to cooperate with us and we'll be witnesses. And when they came, they gave him what's called a target letter. They left him with a letter saying, you're under investigation. And he didn't know what it meant. And so it's like, well, you need a lawyer. And that's at the point when they finally called me. And all of this is on the, on the public record. And so, yeah, it was a real shock for him to metabolize that he was actually the target of an investigation. And what does that mean?

[Matt Fradd]

What did they try to accuse him of?

[Marcella Burke]

For violating hipaa, for giving patient information when he blew the whistle.

[Matt Fradd]

But he didn't. You said, no, he did not.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, no, he did not.

[Matt Fradd]

And you said you've been representing him for two years.

[Marcella Burke]

It's been almost two years.

[Matt Fradd]

So has this just been a nightmare for him for two years? He's having to deal with this.

[Marcella Burke]

He has been very brave.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

Very difficult. And he was just newlywed. He had to cancel his honeymoon, God bless him. And what's amazing about them, he and his wife Andrea, who's another unsung hero here, is they decided to go ahead with their life, build their family. They got pregnant. They just had their first baby. And he had. We've been litigating this case. The first indictment, our legal team was able to summarily just disprove basically the entire premise of the indictment.

[Matt Fradd]

And.

[Marcella Burke]

And so they re indicted him a second time, and he had to get rearranged, which means he had to go back to the court and present to himself to the judge. And the rearrangement was the day after his baby was born. So his baby was born in an emergency C section. He holds the baby and he has to leave the hospital to drive to Houston for his arraignment and then go back to the hospital right after the arraignment. I mean, that's been. That's been what it's like for him this entire time.

[Matt Fradd]

So this might be a stupid question, but why did they go after him if it wasn't actually for disclosing the information of patients, which he didn't do. What's the motivating factor? Or is there someone at the top driving this?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, the prosecutor who led the initial investigation, who's since been removed from the case, she told us on the phone when we first called and said, what is this about? That she, she said the true victims are the hospitals and the Doctors who are unable to perform these procedures. And if you look at the indictments, and we're now on the third indictment, so we've disproved the second version of what they tried to accuse them of, and now we're on a third indictment. So they're just relentlessly trying to find something. She told us in the beginning, I'll get him on a technicality if I have to. And so our law firm has been very public about this. We wrote a letter to Congress. There's a committee on the weaponization of the Department of Justice under the Biden administration. And we wrote a public letter as attorneys, two of whom had been formerly. All three of us had been in senior executive service in the government. Two of them have been at Department of Justice themselves and said, no, this is what's happening is a total violation of protocol and convention at Department of Justice. And the prosecutors admitted that this is prosecutorial indiscretion and a malicious prosecution, essentially, of a political dissenter of this transgender ideology that they want to punish our client, but they really. What they want to do is the law instructs, and they want to send a message to other whistleblowers that if you blow the whistle, this is what's going to happen to you. We'll be at your doorstep. But what happened is the opposite effect. Dr. Heim went public. He was anonymous at first. In his first. When he first blew the whistle, he came out publicly and said who he was, and he really challenged the government to say, come after me. I'm an innocent person. I'm just a citizen of the United States. I work now in a small country county hospital. And I blew the whistle on a horrible thing that was happening very illegally. And I have lawyers. And so sort of come at me was his. His temperament. And so we. We. Yeah, we've been working with him and his. What's become a very public case, and it's actually really backfired on the government. Whistleblowers across the country now have come out. They've learned about his story. And our law firm now represents whistleblowers in major hospital systems across the country for the exact same thing happening.

[Matt Fradd]

And these are either hospital workers or.

[Marcella Burke]

Doctors from different hospitals, clinic directors, nurses, doctors.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow.

[Marcella Burke]

And so it's been this whole movement now of doctors and medical professionals blowing the whistle in their hospital systems to expose not only the procedures, but. But really the fraudulent billing, the way they're getting around it, which is totally illegal. And so it's had the opposite effect.

[Matt Fradd]

So it's not just that he's a political dissenter, it's also because you could sue these hospitals and doctors to high heaven, presumably, and this is them trying to protect themselves financially as well. Or no.

[Marcella Burke]

Or I suppose protect the hospitals from that type of risk.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Wow.

[Marcella Burke]

Which the prosecutor said. She said, you know, this is the true victims are the hospitals and the doctors.

[Matt Fradd]

It's insane. Yeah. How many, what kind of surgery? Is it simply giving hormone therapy to kids or is it also butchering them? It's really important we use the right language, isn't it?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, I think butchering is a good word, actually.

[Matt Fradd]

Or disfiguring, Mutilating.

[Marcella Burke]

Mutilating effort.

[Matt Fradd]

It's important, yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so what they do is there's a number of things. It's a sliding scale. They'll put children on hormones, so they'll give girls testosterone and they'll give boys estrogen. And this will feminize the secondary sex traits, you know, the physical aesthetic of the person. So the girls might start growing facial hair, their voices will get deeper, that type of thing. But more nefarious is putting them on hormone puberty blockers. And there's a myth that this is going to quote pause puberty. And it's when you get into details about this with them, and a lot of these doctors have now been sued for malpractice and other lack of informed consent. Because really what they meant was it's a metaphysical pause. Okay, define that. So define that. Right. But with the puberty blockers, it usually is a surgical implant. So under anesthesia, they put it in your arm and what it does is it interferes with the hypothalamus in your brain and it stops all of the hormonal development in your body. So your body, if it's an 11 to a 13 year old boy, for example, when they're put on the puberty blockers, they will maintain the physical anatomy of an 11 to 13 year old boy their entire life.

[Matt Fradd]

So if they choose to detransition when they're 20, they'll have the same growth they had when they were 11. Is that what you're saying?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, they will have the male anatomy of an 11 year old. And then the doctors say, well, it's metaphysical.

[Matt Fradd]

What do they mean by that?

[Marcella Burke]

You can choose to be an adult male. It's like, yes, but I'm an adult male who can not procreate, who cannot have an adult relationship.

[Matt Fradd]

What do they mean by metaphysical?

[Marcella Burke]

I think that it's an idea that you can determine your own person and this is where it really becomes very diabolical, because, you know, it's no longer you. I think of Galatians 2:20. You know, Christians would say it's no longer when you accept Jesus into your life, it's no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I live in the flesh, I now live by faith in Son of God or something like that is what it says. But what they'll say is, it's no longer you who lives, but this other person that lives within you is coming out, and now you're living that life, and that's who you are. And so it's a real perversion of what identity is. And when you're coming of age and you're figuring out who you are and what does it mean to be a person, why am I here? Who am I? It's very important to then learn that you're a man or you're a woman, and you're going to be growing into this. And not only do you learn who you are under the terms of your own sex, but also in relationship to the other. So men learn who they are in relation to women and women in relation to men. And that's the whole coming of age of puberty, and it's very difficult and it's very confusing. And so there's an overlay in our culture as well, where sex is fluid and gender is fluid. And you may have been raised thinking that there was two sexes, but now we all know, because we learned in college that those are sort of these archaic ideas. And the new wave is that all of this is relative. And so that's an overlay, too, that we're encountering, of course, in the culture. And so kids don't. They don't know who they are. And they're not learning in sex ed, the basics, and they're not learning about what does it mean to be a man or a woman. Instead, they're getting this gender ideology from the youngest ages in schools, parents. A lot of these happen in families with broken homes, single moms, and they trust the schools. And the kids could be going through this for years before they come home one day and say, listen, I'm in the wrong body, and it's suicide or surgery. And they go to the doctor, the doctors reinforce all of this, and they say, why don't we quote, pause. Why don't we put them in these interventions and let this time take care of it? And doctors are very powerful, and that's one thing we have to remember. Doctors are very powerful. Think about what happened in Covid. Think about the mask mandates. You put a white robe on somebody and the average person is going to listen to them. And so parents will go down that road. And in some of the cases we've seen, they'll put their kids on the hormones and then the puberty blockers. And then later on it'll be surgeries, different types of surgeries we can talk about. And they'll say they'll want to get the kids off. And we have cases where the doctors will say, no, I will not take your kids off. I will not remove the implant. And so you'd have to go out of state.

[Matt Fradd]

What justification do they have for saying that?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, they say it's in the best medical interest of their patient. And so it's these. It's. Then it's the parents versus the doctors. And sometimes the parents can successfully escape this, but sometimes they can't. And so then their children are condemned to this body. And it's very tragic. And then there's the next layer, which is surgeries. You see a top side surgeries, and you see all these different. There's one surgery in particular, they call it the nullification, where they basically take from your neck all the way down to your groin, and it's just like a mannequin. It's just one flesh. But of course, nullification is the same root word of nihilism. Nothing. You're now nothing, but from nothing, you can create yourself.

[Matt Fradd]

That is despicable. You know, I don't know if you remember the new atheist days. Christopher Hitchens used to speak as if we could just do away with Christianity, there would be an ascendance of rationality and good sense. And it seems to me that by killing God, this is what's happened. Somewhere in the Second Vatican Council documents, it says, when God is forgotten, the human creature becomes unintelligible. That seems to be where we are right now. I had Chloe Cole, I'm sure you're familiar with her story, the Transitioner on my show. And it was, people ask me, what's been the most beautiful interview you've done or the most memorable that would be in the top five. What a beautiful young girl who through social, you know, felt like an alien in her own body, felt awkward about the way she was developing, found it easier to relate to males and females. Goes on TikTok, finds this transgender community, quote unquote, and yeah, ends up getting top surgery. I feel top mutilation, has her breast mutilated. But God Bless her, had the courage to then detransition. How difficult that must be. Because once you've made a decision like that, it seems to me you've got two options, right? You can either keep going along and keep being praised by the culture for just how brave you are, or you can be a sort of mutilated realist, like acknowledge the tragedy that's happened to you, acknowledge that you're a victim, which isn't or shouldn't be fun, and then live your life as the sex that you are, but as one who is mutilated. That must be so difficult.

[Marcella Burke]

Very difficult. And I work with a number of detransitioners as witnesses in our cases, also as co counsel to people who are taking cases, representing them. And it's really amazing when you meet a lot of the detransitioners they are going to be who blazes the trail to end this.

[Matt Fradd]

They remind me of the beautiful, bright, brave women who say, I regret my abortion. And they stand up and they can speak as someone who's had an abortion to other women.

[Marcella Burke]

You know, absolutely. And the difference between abortion, there's a lot of differences, but one fundamental is that, you know, abortion doesn't have survivors. The women, the moms might survive. Sometimes you'll hear a story of a child who survived maybe a chemical abortion, but with the transgender movement, they'll say it's surgery or suicide, but truly it's surgery than suicide.

[Matt Fradd]

Tell me about that.

[Marcella Burke]

Well, so many of these children, it's proven now do take their lives after they go through this. And so there a lot of these doctors were relying on studies out of Europe that gave this message of surgery or then suicide. And what's happened is all those studies have been debunked. And this is relevant legally because then in the courts we can say all of this research has been debunked. What's really interesting is in one of our cases, one of the doctors who promotes this surgery and says it's a pause, he had also at the same time contemporaneously applied for funding at the National Institute of Health to continue to do these procedures in America. And in that application, he admits it's experimental. We don't know. That's why we need the funding. So he perjured himself. So of course we're going after him for that. But thank goodness in Europe they've already seen that a lot of this was debunked. And so we're getting caught up here in America. And just to comment on what the detransitioners are. Are facing when they have to come out of this whole lifestyle is one thing that the transgender movement offers is this air quotes community. And it's an imposter of a true community, of course, but it provides things that are now out of our culture. Church attendance is down, but they have their own rituals. They have their own meetings. They have basically rites of initiation. They have steps that you go through to transition and become the new you. And these are things that a church would offer. We have our own rites of initiation. We have our baptisms. We have the things that we do to take on the message of Christ. We as Christians know that we're not meant for this place, that we're in exile here on earth, and that the reason why we feel discomfort. And one thing you will tell your kids when they're growing up is that this restlessness you feel is natural because you weren't born for this place. You were born for heaven. And so the transgender ideology offers. Tries to offer that imposter of this truth on earth, that you can escape this natural restlessness by changing your body. But it's just all a bunch of lies. But like every lie, it's just there's. There's a modicum of truth that's been twisted, you know, and so when you. When people get out of this ideology, they're having to give up their church, their community, their rituals, their everything, and then look for something else. And that's the question we have to ask ourselves as a church. What is the church doing? What are we offering people who are going through this and coming out of it? There's one woman, and she's given me permission to talk about her situation today, but she's an amazing woman. But she also went through the gender ideology. She also got the topside surgery, and she woke up after the surgery, and there was horrible complications. And like many of these children, she almost died. I mean, it was a horrible botched job, and it woke her up, and she wanted to get out of it. And she's been a very brave witness to the transgender ideology, but she got canceled at work when she testified in Texas on the house bill that was gonna further criminalize these procedures against doctors. She works as a barista, and they said they fired her because they didn't like her, quote, politics. She didn't have a job. And she called me, and she wanted to. She was like, can you help me find a job? And I said, I can help you find a job. You can come work for me. And so she's A research assistant at my law firm. And she's amazing. She's a genius. She's a true prodigy. She went to college, I think, when she was like 15 or something. And she too, had parents get divorced at a young age. She, too, got seduced online. She too, found this people. And I told her, you know, when I started getting to know her that, you know, your parents are a symbol, and this is. This echoes. And we can talk about that. But I personally, as a child, was told by a priest, Father Bill, who we have to bring up later because he's amazing, but, you know, along the lines of, what can the church do? Is I was a bit of a troubled youth. And if I had been a teenager at this time, I can guarantee I would have been sucked into this. Anybody who wanted to spend time with me and give me answers to my questions, I think I would have done anything. And I met, thank God, a priest called Father Bill.

[Matt Fradd]

Monsignor Bill Young.

[Marcella Burke]

Monsignor Bill Young.

[Matt Fradd]

And just so people know, he means a lot to me and you. We've discovered this this morning. He is the priest who married my wife and I. And my son is named after him. And you.

[Marcella Burke]

My son is named after him, which is amazing.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Shout out to Monsignor Bill Young. I mean, with all the bad stories out there, it's so nice just to be able to go, what a good priest.

[Marcella Burke]

He's a good priest.

[Matt Fradd]

How grateful we are.

[Marcella Burke]

He's a good priest and a good man. And he saw me. I was at a retreat and for confirmation as a high schooler, and they had exposed the blessed sacrament in eucharistic adoration. And I had never seen anything like that. And I said, what's that? They said, it's really Jesus. And they had some speaker, and it was all emotive and emotional. And I was like, these people are in a cult. This is insane. First of all, obviously, this is not real. And so I was leaving to go smoke a cigarette, and I had little short pixie hair, and I had my little raver clothes on. And as I was leaving to find my cigarettes, I looked up, and above the door, there was a quotation from St. Augustine. Our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they rest in you. And I'm reading it, and I can still see this image. And I get this priest walks up to me. It's Father Bill. He's like, well, who are you? I'm like, well, who are you? And so we get to talking, and he. He heard my confession, and I.

[Matt Fradd]

How did that happen? You asked him or.

[Marcella Burke]

No, he asked me. We had a conversation just about some things. And he said, I think that you need. When is the last time you went to confession? I said, oh, I don't know. Since I was a kid, you know, I don't know. A long time ago. And he's like, well, let's. You don't have to. You know, I don't have to hear a confession, but let's talk. So we went to the confessional. We're talking, and he just invited me. He said, why don't you just try it? And I had this amazing experience in the confessional of feeling the Father's love. And he said, why don't you stick around for this adoration, because tonight we're gonna have a procession. And so I stuck around for adoration and. Oh, Matt, you're so sweet. Yeah, it's emotional when I think about it.

[Matt Fradd]

What's emotional about it is Christ is who we hunger for. And when that's taken away, we're just left with lies and smoke. And that's what so many young people are trying to cling to for sanity. And they're falling into hell. Thank God for good men like Father Bill. Thank God for the church. Thank God for the Eucharist, you know, and the rosary.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. My youth minister was a woman named Darla Hickman.

[Matt Fradd]

Love her.

[Marcella Burke]

And she. She. She. I stuck around after this, and they were doing a rosary, and I had never really prayed the rosary. And she said, will you lead a decade of the rosary? And I was like, oh, Ms. Hickman, I don't know. I don't know how to do it. And she's like, well, no, here. Here's the words. And, you know.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And I said. I said, darla, you know, I can't pray a rosary. You know, I'm not holy. And she said, marcella, you are a holy woman of God. And she wrote that on a little sheet of paper, and she handed it to me, and I still have it, like in my bible.

[Matt Fradd]

God bless 90s youth minister moms who crushed it for so many teens.

[Marcella Burke]

Yes, absolutely. And so I got this identity, and Father Bill had just finished telling me, you know, marcella, you know, whom. To whom do you belong? Like, where do you belong? You know? And I said, I don't belong. Belong anywhere. And I had a bunch of friends at the time. We did drugs, and we were just in a lot of trouble, runaways and that kind of thing. And I was getting ready to run away, probably with my drug dealer and his girlfriend. Who was my new best friend. And I said, I don't know. He said, you belong to God and he created you for him. And to the extent your parents are symbols of his love, and to the extent they have not taught you who you are and to whom you belong, they have failed you. But the good news is they're just symbols, and so they can get out of the way and you can go straight to the source. Your father in heaven, who you were made for, and your mother Mary. And so stick around and just ask God in adoration, who am I and who are you? And that was Father Bill's ask. You can leave, but if you stay, that's all you should ask. And so I'm waiting for the adoration. I pray the decade of the rosary with Darla. And we have this procession, and in the procession, you know, Father Bill had the monsterins he's holding in his hand, and they're reading scriptures. And it's the scripture about the woman, the hemorrhaging woman. And it makes me so emotional because it's. It's like, you know, it's. It's the part of the reading where she just wanted to touch. She just wanted to touch Jesus tassel. And so I reached out when Father Bill passed with the monster and I touched his tassel.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, tassel.

[Marcella Burke]

Okay. And I could. I changed. I truly believe I was healed in that moment. There was a profound healing, and I knew exactly who I was. And it was just like an infusion. And I came home after that and, you know, I wanted to read the Bible and I wanted to learn. And I was sort of. It wasn't an environment at home where that was welcome. And I wanted to start going to youth group. And I'd been expelled from private school, claim to fame, expelled from all girl Catholic school by this point. And I wasn't sort of. I was nervous about even going to youth group because these are the good kids in school, and I was like one of the bad kids in school and. But it was Darla who invited me and Father Bill who said, marcela, let's start meeting. Meet me in my office and we'll start talking. And so I said, okay. And I went to my first meeting, and I would have to pay like 80 bucks to take a cab because my parents wouldn't let me drive. They. They were very suspicious of youth groups, didn't want me to have anything to do with it. And I had a couple jobs at the time, and I, you know, used my tip money and I took a cab Before Uber, you know, before cell phones, Well, I had a pager, which is a little sketchy, and I met with Father Bill, and we just continued this conversations over months, months and months. And the first meeting, I remember, he handed me a book by Trez of Avila. And I've had a great priest tell me, since we don't choose the saints, the saints choose us. And he handed me this book by Thomas de May, I think Fire Within.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, Dubay, Dubay.

[Marcella Burke]

And he. He has John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila's letters and all these things. He's like, read this book and come back next week. So I read the book, and I come back, and I'm like, father Bill, this is like Chinese.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, it's a hard book to give to someone. I mean, that's some deep mystical theology that's contained within that book. The fire within, which I would encourage everybody to get. It's insanely beautiful and wonderful. And that's a heavy book to have.

[Marcella Burke]

Some of the. Well, I have the same copy. And I'll remind Father Bill, only Virgil said, only your friends steal your books. Because I never gave that book back. But my marginalia, teenage marginalia, is still in the margins. You know, my thoughts were when I read it, even back then. So I went back to him and I said, this makes no sense. He says, exactly. He's like, you know what, Marcella? You don't know shit.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay, thanks, Father.

[Marcella Burke]

And I was like, you know, welcome to reality. Father Bill just cussed, you know, but he was trying to get through this thick skull of mine. And he said, yeah, you got a lot. You got a lot to learn. There's a whole world out there. There's a whole world out there. And I remember Darla called me again, followed up, good woman, trying to get me to go to youth group, which I thought it was lame and didn't want to go. And we had a call, and she had said, you know, marcella, do you want to pray together? And I remember laying in my bed saying, sure. And praying on this phone connected to the wall with, like, a long cord, you know, and when she prayed, and then I prayed, and I remember I prayed for Jesus. I said something like, oh, and I pray for Jesus. And Darla's like, you know, marcela, we're praying to Jesus. But I'd like never prayed with anybody before, and I didn't know, like, how to pray. And so she taught me how to pray. And she was like, you know, we don't pray for Jesus. We pray that we Can.

[Matt Fradd]

He's good.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. Like, he's. He. He. He's. He's there. And so, you know, just the whole awkwardness of learning, like, how to be a Christian. So going back to, you know, these children caught up in this ideology, what's the message we tell them? Well, it's the same message. It's, to whom do you belong and what were you made for? And what does it mean to be a man and a woman and who are your parents? And I told this young woman the same thing Father Bill told me. To the extent that your parents are a symbol, it's not working. So just go look up adoration. Here's a chapel. Gave her a rosary, and she went. And she called me, like, a week later, and she's like, sorry, who is this girl? She's this woman who got the topside surgery. It was botched.

[Matt Fradd]

This is the one who now is your research assistant.

[Marcella Burke]

She's now research assistant. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[Marcella Burke]

And. And she says, marcella, I've never felt the love of a father before.

[Matt Fradd]

That is she. Has she come out of the transgender illusion at this point, or is she still wondering what to do?

[Marcella Burke]

No, she's out.

[Matt Fradd]

Prior to ad, Was she still searching?

[Marcella Burke]

No, she had gotten out. She had been testifying against the legislation. She identified at the time as gay, had a girlfriend with her.

[Matt Fradd]

So was she raised Catholic?

[Marcella Burke]

No.

[Matt Fradd]

No. And you give her a rosary and tell her to go to Adoration. Okay, then what happens?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Good for you.

[Marcella Burke]

Why drink Diet Coke when you could have Dr. Pepper? Okay.

[Matt Fradd]

I think wine would be more appropriate or a good bourbon, but sure.

[Marcella Burke]

Well, you know.

[Matt Fradd]

But you're from Texas, Dr. Peters.

[Marcella Burke]

Cussing. We're keeping it PG on the pod. So. So, yeah, she had a huge transformation, and she.

[Matt Fradd]

So what did she say when she. After Adoration?

[Marcella Burke]

She said she never felt the love of a father.

[Matt Fradd]

I want to say a big thanks to the College of St. Joseph the Worker, based in Steubenville, Ohio. You'll recognize many of their faculty and fellows from the show. People like Dr. Andrew Jones, Dr. Jacob Imam, Dr. Mark Barnes, Dr. Alex Plato. Listen to this. Their program combines the rigor of an elite bachelor's degree with the practicality of training in the skilled trades. And their tuition model is structured so that students graduate without crippling debt. If you're a bright young man thinking about what college to go to, apply to a place where you not only learn the good, but gain the power to do it. Apply to the College of St. Joseph the Worker. If you're A parent. Look into this college for your children. And if you're not in either category, just consider supporting the mission. Go to collegeofsaintjoseph.com mattfrad to learn more. That's collegeofstjoseph.com MattFrad to learn more. There will be a link below. Thanks. Can I. This story is just coming to my mind, so I want to share it. I used to live in Ireland, and while I was there, I started my kind of anti porn writing. And I made contact with a former porn performer in the industry. And my wife and I flew her out from la and we rented out the jazz club in Dublin.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And we just let a porn. We could. You know, I wouldn't refer to them as a porn star, but we used that language to try to get more of a secular audience coming in, sharing her story. It was powerful. The point is, we were in this little. Well, this town called Sligo, and the Missionaries of Charity have a house there now. This woman had converted to Christ. She was a Protestant. And I said, well, look, we'll go in here. Adorations going on. She's like, what's that? Like? They're just praying. I'll tell you after. But we went in there and we knelt and we prayed. And then one of the sisters wanted to meet with us. And so we came out and she just, like, grabbed me and she's like, did you feel the love of God in there? And I like, well, I didn't really. You know what I mean? I was just, like, wondering how awkward this may have been for her and what this was like. But that experience of Christ in the Eucharist is so palpable for so many people.

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, yeah. And I think about when Father Bill asked me to go to confession or Darla asked me to pray a decade of the Rosary or to stick around for adoration for them. They might have had that same awkward, like, you never know. But it's our job to just invite and to cooperate with God, invite people. And it's up to him to let people have whatever experience they're gonna have. And this young woman had a profound experience and she started going to Mass. And there's a number of detransitioners that go to this university campus chapel. And, yeah, it's really profound. And a number of them got baptized last Easter. And so now she is in RCIA to become Catholic and join the church. And it's just a beautiful, profound thing to watch. And then she and I talk all the time, you know, about Work and other things. But, you know, we'll talk about faith. And I've learned so much from her and from her faith and her trust. And she's got this gorgeous heart, and she's got this whole life ahead of her, and she's so young, and she survived this catastrophic thing, and she's a genius, and I can just imagine what God's going to do in her life. And she's getting to know the saints, and she's getting to know, you know, the personalities in the church, and that when you become who you're meant to be, you become more fully alive and you'll become even more a unique self. And so instead of becoming a nun and a nothing and getting nullified, which is the nihilistic ver, you know, that.

[Matt Fradd]

Actually your personality blossoms.

[Marcella Burke]

Absolutely. And so, you know, she and I are now competing for who's gonna be the patron saint of Texas one day. And I think that I have.

[Matt Fradd]

I think that's Darla Hickman or Monsignor, but you could be a runner up. There could be two of you.

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, there's a bunch of us that are, you know, in contention for this, I think, but she's definitely up there.

[Matt Fradd]

She's going to Beautiful Kayna Hickman, who I love. Beautiful Annie Hickman. These good souls.

[Marcella Burke]

Yep.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Could you tell me a little bit about how this to. To the best of your knowledge, how this de transitioner movement began and how big it is right now and how it is they're communicating and what that's like for them?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, it's women like Chloe Cole, and it's. There's a number of people who come out of the ideology, and there's real titans and leaders. There's a man named Corey Cohen, who for years has been testifying against Title IX and men and women's sports. And he was also seduced when he was very young on the Internet, divorced parents, went through hormones and all the surgeries and everything else and has come out of this ideology as well. But he's now, I believe, in his 50s, late 50s, and another just beautiful human right. It's men like that. And he still, in many ways, because his. His body has changed for so many decades of this, has some feminine secondary features. But I've told him before that he is one of the manliest men I've ever met.

[Matt Fradd]

What do you mean by that?

[Marcella Burke]

Because what he has done is this young woman, for example, she was getting ready to testify. She's in the beginning of her detransitioner. She's scared she's going to go testify against what's happened to her. It's all still very fresh. And she had met him, and they were hanging out, and it was before, and she had asked him, you know, I'm scared, and had a conversation, and he coached her, and he talked to her about. And he'd been testifying, and he just helped her through it, and someone for her to talk to, bless him. And he was a father figure. So when we talked about adoration and that warm sense of knowing there's this man who loves you, who cares for you, who's your creator, but she had some aromas of that when she had met with Corrie and that she could. You know, you get these, like. These little. These little trails God gives you to help to prepare you for the true encounter. But this is a man who has also taught her the father's love and a brother's love and the true, true relationships you can have with people who do truly care for you. And so he.

[Matt Fradd]

And so, Corey, I heard somebody say, and I think this is right, that, you know, what's the genius of masculinity? And I think it's something like strength on behalf of others, you know, for the sake of others. And that's what he's doing, right? Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

Protecting women.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so what does he do? He's an activist. He testifies. He shows up at events. You know, Corey showed up at the Eucharistic Congress, okay. And he held up a transgender flag. And it's like, you know, and he had some message on it, I can't remember. And he had people come up to him saying, you know, to talk to him. And he had said, well, what are you doing at your church to help these kids? What are you doing? And he was at the Eucharistic Congress to hold accountable Catholics going in at this big, you know, prom for Catholics to say, what are you doing about transgender? So he continues to show up and be provocative and to get people provocative ways. And it's very masculine because he's out there defending femininity. He's out there defending children. And what is a better, more masculine thing than to do what you can to protect women and children?

[Matt Fradd]

This is gonna be a fascinating Netflix documentary in 20 years from now, once we all realize how demonic this whole thing was to. To see this crazy story of let's mutilate our children and tell them they are what they aren't. I mean, how psychotic is that and how unloving is that? When someone believes Lies. You don't love them by reaffirming those lies. You love them by telling them the truth and walking with them.

[Marcella Burke]

And we have to have a mechanism, at least in our church, not only for these children, but. But what about the parents who enabled it and allowed it?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And the horrible shame.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, well, that's right. That was one of the questions I had for Chloe Cole, like, what advice do you give to the parents who permitted this and now realize that they were cowards, that they made terrible choices, evil choices, that permitted their children to be mutilated? Like, how do we reach out to them?

[Marcella Burke]

And a lot of the detransitioners have. Are estranged from their families. And so they don't have family. They don't have community.

[Matt Fradd]

So what happens in your experience when a quote, unquote transitioner, quote, unquote detransitioners transitions? What happens to their life? What happens to their networks, their communities, their employment?

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, it's different for the different people I've met. A number of them have lost their jobs, for sure, and sort of have to start over. A number of them become therapists and social workers, and they are. I represent a number of d. Transitioners who are now therapists and social workers, and they get their medical licenses challenged. They get slandered all over the press. They get lawsuits against them if they happen to live in a state that might have a law that says that conversion, quote, conversion therapy is illegal. Trying to accuse them of conversion therapy, I mean, they're attacked, their livelihoods are attacked. And so they can't afford to represent themselves. They're slandered and libeled. But there's a whole world of people that are fighting this. And One thing that Dr. Heim, the surgeon whistleblower that he's been able to really do is be a part of this movement and connect a lot of people. And so a lot of these people are now connected to one another through what Chloe's doing, through what Dr. Heim is doing, through what Corey has been doing. And so there is a community, a true community of real people, and there's been coalescing around them. I have a number of clients who are just oil and gas clients, but they have donated to a legal defense fund to represent. To. To represent these guys, the little guy, against the big industrial complex. That's the transgender industrial complex. And so there. There are. You know, God always gives us just enough. So I wouldn't say that we have this huge infrastructure and we have everything we ever needed. No, I still get People who call me where I don't have the resources to represent them. And I have to call and say, we have these people, and can you. Can someone donate? I mean, we're really trying to continue to build. I think Dr. Heim is very interested in starting a nonprofit where he can be someone who helps fundraise and then create a legal, you know, turn his legal defense fund into one for others that speak out as whistleblowers, as doctors, as detransitioners, as therapists, and to create that infrastructure. And that's something that I'm hoping to help him do. We're getting him through his ordeal, but we're already looking into the future to help provide that. And then, you know, what little things as an individual can I do to really try to help people is to continue to invite them to what is it that they're truly missing? And what was that fundamental lie? And what are you made for? And so in my little way, I try to do that with the individuals I encounter. And then that's all I'm called to do, too, is the little things. And that's Trez of Avila. And, you know, Tres of Lisux named herself after Teresa of Avila, and then Mother Teresa named herself after Tres Le Sue. And all of them have number of things in common with sort of their theology. But one of them is this little way that the Trez of Lisu, of course, encapsulated in the Mother Teresa, you know, small things with great love and small things with a smile. And so just remembering that we have these huge, huge problems in the church and in the world, but what can we do is a smile, a kind word, and little things with great love. That's actually what moves mountains.

[Matt Fradd]

It's so true. I've been thinking about that a lot lately as I go through airports and things. Just the hell that people go through behind their face. You have no idea what's going on. And just. It feels like a prickly time right now. Everybody just seems a little agitated, a little angsty, like on YouTube and comment sections where people are just waiting to be offended and waiting to rip each other apart. I'm getting that sense more and more out in public. And so I'm really trying just to smile at people and to pray for them as I encounter them.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, I try to smile more, too. I think smiling is very powerful. And that's a big part of my daily life, is trying to smile more. I have small kids and my job and all the work we're doing and just remembering to smile and just try to remember to smile while I'm talking and just try to remember to do the little things that we can do. And that's, you know, Darla asking me to pray a decade.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

It's a little thing. It changed my life. Marcella, you're a holy woman of God.

[Matt Fradd]

Yep.

[Marcella Burke]

And the power of a small little thing and how it grows.

[Matt Fradd]

I know that the Blessed Virgin Mary is going to put some beautiful transgender people in front of this interview who are watching right now. And you can let us know who you are in the comments below. I'd love to hear from you. Suppose they've been administered hormone blockers or have been mutilated. How. What does the process look like? How do they reach out to you? And how can you. How could you possibly help them?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, I mean, they can reach out on the website, which is Burke Group Law.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Remind me. I'm going to put the link in the description. When I forget, you will remind me and then I'll put it up immediately.

[Marcella Burke]

Sure, absolutely. And, you know, we take people all the time and we take an intake call and interview them. And if my law firm can't represent them, there's a network of lawyers I'm a part of that'll take these cases. And it depends on what state they're in and what's the state law and really assessing what's going on. And is there legal recourse? Sometimes there's not. There's statute of limitations, which means you only have so much time to challenge a doctor. So has that run or not? So you do a little bit of legal analysis and it's a state by state thing, and you tell them what their recourse is and if they have any to pursue it. And so some of these detransitioners have pursued legal recourse, and they've been very successful.

[Matt Fradd]

I hope they are making banks and they'll use that money to help overcome this insanity. Yeah, yeah. Is that happening? Are people who've been abused by doctors. Not that any amount of financial compensation ever makes up for the abuse they've experienced. But are they receiving?

[Marcella Burke]

Some people are, yeah. A lot of the cases my law firm takes are these big Medicaid fraud against the hospitals. Yeah, we do some stuff with the people, but my practice isn't really. Although we do have people that do it. The medical malpractice is what. What you're talking about. And, yes, you can take those cases. And there are people who do get damages.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so that's the Damages back from all they spent, but also the damages of, you know, being sterile or, you know, any type of fraud in the inducement and lack of informed consent.

[Matt Fradd]

Is there a tsunami of lawsuits about to break? Is that what's about to happen?

[Marcella Burke]

I hope so.

[Matt Fradd]

Do you get the sense that that's happening? Do you get the sense that hospitals and doctors are more careful about abusing children?

[Marcella Burke]

I think they're very nervous.

[Matt Fradd]

Good.

[Marcella Burke]

One of our cases is very interesting because the whistleblower had recorded a training where it was a bunch of hospitals from a number of different states that were in a training and at the training they were saying here's the code to doctors and nurses and here's all the codes under gender transition. I think it's like the F64 codes, but if it's illegal in your state, here's what you should bill instead. And they're teaching people how to do fraud. This is a violation of rico. It's racketeering. And so we have this recorded and all those hospitals that were in attendance. And so what we do is we go to the state's attorney generals in the states where there were doctors there and we say, you guys should investigate this. And so we have state's attorney generals investigating all this stuff. And when you go after these hospitals, it's under what's called the false claims act. And so what that means is, or the damage is there is the hospital has to pay back to the government. So Medicaid is a government funding, so they have to pay back dollar for dollar, but there's treble damages, so they have to pay times three. So these kids that get sucked in, you know, you break your arm, you get one doctor, maybe two, click on your insurance, have a follow up visit. They only make so much money. The average kid in these gender transitions with hormones and puberty blockers be 25 to 30 doctors a month clicking on their file, I mean the amount or weeks. And now they have therapists and psychiatrists through these hospitals and everything's through the system and they're making a ton of money. So the average kid could be about a million dollars each. So 3 million that the hospital has to pay back per kid. And so it's a lot of money. And so sometimes the only way to make people wake up and listen is to know there's going to be consequences. And these are criminal. I mean people go to jail for this. The doctors can go to jail depending on the role of the CEO of the hospital. I mean these are jail time offenses. They're very serious offenses. And there's a lot of precedent. You know, there's lots of doctors who've gotten in trouble for Medicaid fraud on all kinds of different types of surgeries. It could be hip replacements and they're over billing or they're doing this or that. And so it's a very clear legal precedent. We take a lot of those cases and we have those big cases. We are working with state's attorney generals and we are investigating. And so those are the big cases that are going to be a really big deal when it comes to making the hospitals stop and then having this culture within the medicine, at least for people who are whistleblowers to know that there is infrastructure to help them. Law firms like mine, and we have different whistleblowers. We have Dr. Heim, who's basically a secular Jew. We have a woman who's a nurse called Vanessa Sivage and she's an evangelical Christian, very compelled by what she had. She'd been reassigned from a cardiac unit to the, the gender clinic and blew the whistle. And then we have Jamie Reed, who is a lesbian, who is married to a woman who presents as a man, but just recently publicly wrote an article in the Free Press that her partner is now detransitioning out of it. But Jamie is a force and another whistleblower as a gay woman. And so we have people from different walks of life all speaking out against what's going on to these kids. And that gives permission to people from different ideologies, backgrounds, religions, perspectives to just say this is child abuse. What we're doing is really horrific. And so we have these whistleblowers coming out all across the country. I mean, it is, I think we're winning on this, we're winning on the transgender thing. I think in 10 years it will be ananthema. I think We've had over 14 states already put in new laws against it and we'll see more in the next session. And there could be federal legislation and President Trump has said in his campaign and what he's, you know, he's going to make this illegal and we cannot do this to our children. And so what are different things the executive can do and can the Department of Justice take its sights off of the whistleblowers and put them on the hospitals? And the president has said that's what he's going to direct his Department of Justice to do is to investigate these hospitals. And so I do think that we're, we are on the so called right side of History, obviously, but we're actually winning this. We're actually winning the transgender issue, which is great, but it's small things. I mean, there's very few lawyers in America taking these cases. And so whenever I got the call and I didn't want to take it, and it's like, are you going to rise to the occasion? Are you going to defend this whistleblower and do whatever you can? And then once I realized I had the resources and a partner at my own firm had this background, I was like, oh, gosh, I. You know, of course I rose to the occasion. And you said, you know, were you afraid? Not really, because once I knew that all the pieces were coming together, it was just very obvious. And then it's just a come what may at that point. And there have been sleepless nights. You know, we've had to hire security at our home. We've had, you know, threats and all this type of stuff. And, you know, there's things that we've had to adjust personally, but I think that'll also fade and pass, too. But really, it's nothing compared to what these kids are going through. And someone needs to be the adult in the room who's willing to say no and to stand athwart the lies and say no. And so doctors need to speak out, lawyers need to step up. And so, yeah, we took the one case. Now we have a bunch of them, and it's only a portion of our docket. I mean, the majority of what my law firm does is commercial corporate litigation and commercial, you know, fund formation and joint ventures and just commercial. I mean, it's just bread and butter legal work. I have lost some clients over this. I had one of my biggest clients, someone on her legal team had been transitioning her son, and he'd already been sterilized as a young teenager. So I lost a really big client over it. But I've had other people that are just commercial corporate clients that say, I saw your case. I read your law firm's background, and. And, you know, I used to use this law firm, but I saw that they're defending the ACLU in these cases, trying to defend the transgender industry, and I don't want to hire those lawyers anymore. So we want to hire you, and we've gotten just bread and butter commercial work from people who just are wanting to support a law firm and a group of lawyers that are trying to do something different and trying me, as just one individual, to build a firm where we can just lawyers be lawyers, and we can take controversial cases, because that's what lawyers do. And then this case will end and you move on and we're just, you know, boring lawyers again. But it has been very transformational for me, I think, for the lawyers at our law firm. Our corporate lawyers, like our M and A guys, are just so proud that they could be part of a law firm doing this. And it means the world to me that we continue to recruit and we find these lawyers across the country who say, I want to be a part of your firm. Come on, you know, I want to be a part of what you're building. And our goal is to be about a hundred lawyers and to just be known as really good elite lawyers for elite clients that are willing to take tough cases. You know, this is a highly traditional goal for a law firm. It's actually pretty, pretty boring.

[Matt Fradd]

But tell the people watching what that fella said on Tucker Carlson's show about you, if you don't mind, because, oh, gosh, if I were you, that would be in my bio from that one.

[Marcella Burke]

That's so funny. Dr. Heim, he's amazing, and he has a way with words. He's very talented. And Tucker had him on the show. God Bless Tucker Carlson. Dr. Phil had him on the show, Jordan Peterson. I mean, these men have really used their platforms to let Dr. Heim tell his story. But he said, Tucker said, you know, how did you find a lawyer to take this case? How did you find this person? And he said, oh, Marcella, she's this really serious Catholic lady with a rosary in one hand and a middle finger in the other. And that's how he described me. And Tucker laughed, the trademark laugh. And so that's sort of, you know, I have, you know, that's a bit of a meme at my law firm.

[Matt Fradd]

So glad you're doing what you're doing. I'm pretty ignorant about this. What is legal where, you know, are there states where puberty blockers are illegal? What about mutilating of children? Is that where.

[Marcella Burke]

It's a state law? So traditionally, medical regulation of the medical industry is a states usually a state rights issue. And so each state can decide for itself in the legislature. So you might have states like California, New York, New York or Washington state, where it's a complete. Everything's open. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And what is that for those who are still kind of ignorant about this insanity? What is it that they're doing in hospitals in New York?

[Marcella Burke]

And, well, your child can say they want to be a boy or, you know, the present as the opposite sex. And Then they can.

[Matt Fradd]

They'll castrate them. They will, yeah. And could you talk about those surgeries and what they entail? I know you're not a doctor, but you've. You've dealt with this. What are they?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, there's the. The double mastectomies, obviously, for women, they'll do full. They could do a full castration. For boys, they can do a phalloplasty, which is creating, like a. Using, like, the skin of someone's arm or other parts of their body to create male anatomy on a woman. And those were really, really horrific. Horrific. Horrific.

[Matt Fradd]

Because I presume that if there was a state that started amputating people's limbs because they identified as armless, they wouldn't be able to do that, would they?

[Marcella Burke]

Correct. So that's a. That's an argument that's been made across the country in a lot of these states that if you tell your. If you go to the doctor and you say, hey, my kid's, like, left arm is bothering him or his male anatomy is bothering him, I'd like you to remove it. Just bugging him, they'd say, no, I can't do that. It's malpractice. But you say he's transgender and he thinks he's a girl. Well, then they suddenly can. These are some of the arguments that are winning. And so, no, there's no new standard. This is where the suicide or surgery argument started coming in. Or. Excuse me, surgery or suicide? Because then that gave doctors, well, if we don't do it, he's going to lose his life, and that creates this medical necessity.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. What do you want? What do they say? Like a living son or a dead daughter?

[Marcella Burke]

Exactly. Now that's. You've noticed we haven't been hearing that so much in the past year or so now that all those studies have been totally debunked and all the European doctors have put an end to it. And so here, they don't have anything to stand on anymore. There's actually no research that shows that that defense stands. And so now doctors who are doing this are actually exposing children to the opposite surgery than suicide. And those numbers are starting to come out in the litigation. But, no, you can have states. Not only that, there are some states where if your child says they want to change sexes and the parent says no, they'll take the child away. And you've seen that across. There's a big case in Washington, D.C. there's a case in Washington State. There's a number of these cases where they'll take the children away from the families if the school wants to initiate the transitioning of the child. And so I've had one mom call me from one of these states and say, they're going to take my kid away. And I said, you need to move. You need to move. And she's like, well, we have this great view. We live on a lake. And I'm like, lady, you know, I can't help you. I cannot help you if you're not willing to move. You can move, and you will have the exact same legal recourse against them, and you still have the same cause of action, and we can still fight this, but you will have your children safe. And you need to be willing to move and do the thing. And so, again, these parents really need to step up. And it's going to be uncomfortable, and it's going to. You're going to have to do some readjusting. We had our kids in a school that was a Catholic school that we learned was teaching gender ideology as young as three years old and had color books. And my kid came home and we're praying before bed. And he had said something like, mommy, where's daddy's other mommy? And I'm like, what do you mean?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. He said, this is your child?

[Marcella Burke]

My child. And. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, you know, we read a book that there can be two mommies and two daddies. And like, where's the other mommy? He's very confused. And so, of course, we went to the school and found out about these books on gender ideology. And what do we do? You gotta pull your kid out of the school. It's the worst. You're like, my Catholic school in this diocese, it was a Catholic school. Yeah, yeah. And then we learned that almost every parochial school in our diocese has the same curriculum. And if you're a, quote, conservative Catholic, then you can go to this parish, this parish, or this parish, but that's it. And that we were told we were bigots, training our kids to be.

[Matt Fradd]

You were told that by a Catholic school?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, and I went to the board and we did everything we could to just. We thought, you know, people just. If only the parents knew. But parents want their kids to be in the school, in the right neighborhood, with the right networks, for goodness sake.

[Matt Fradd]

There's a lot of faces that need slapping.

[Marcella Burke]

Well, there's just. But what can we do? So what do my husband and I do? We have to rearrange everything. You know, I'm working, he's working. We got the. What are we gonna do? You pull the kid out. If the state's gonna take away your child, you move, you pack the car and you move.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. And it's a freaking lake.

[Marcella Burke]

You know, you just got to do the tough things and you got to wake up. And the more people that are willing to sacrifice for their kids, the more that then, you know, you're invested in fighting the ideology. And so, you know, we had made that decision to pull our kid out of that school, which is hugely disappointing for us. And it was, you know, sad. You know, we love the church and it was just knowing this is happening within our own house, you know, but that was one of those little things where God, you know, gives you courage along the way. And I think that that was a real virtue defining moment for us to pull the kids out and know how strongly we felt about it. And it was later that, you know, pretty soon after I got that call, you know, but I'd had enough. You know, God gives you little things, little opportunities to have courage and to do the right thing, to then prepare you for the bigger things. And so that's what we're called to do is we don't tolerate it. You know, we do not tolerate these lies. We do not collude in them. And we don't lie to ourselves and say it won't affect our kids. No, you pull your kids out of that, you get them out of the situation. But it's tough. I will. It is tough. It's a. I've had to do it.

[Matt Fradd]

Are there any states that have reversed some of these practices because of pressure put on.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of state laws that are now out there saying you can't do these things. They create criminal liability for the doctors. If it wasn't already there. And you'll see more and more legislation. We're working on legislation now. I've had the privilege of working on executive orders for the new administration on this issue. And you know, things like states can do this, but the federal government can do it as well. But having a mandatory binary definition of the sexes in all state, federal paperwork. And so one thing these hospitals can do is they have everything is about gender. So on the paperwork, if you're trying to look for the fraud, they have Billy, and Billy wants testosterone because he's testosterone deficient. But nowhere on the file does it say Billy's actually Susie. And of course an 11 year old Susie is testosterone deficient. And Susie's a girl. And so Giving that treatment for testosterone deficiency is fraudulent? Well, if you have a law that says the paperwork has to have a mandatory binary definition of the sexes, well, then when invested, when the state investigates the hospitals, it's much easier to find the fraud. And so those. That's the type of legislation that we're working on statewide, you know, across the state governments and also federally. I mean, there's things like that that are being. That are being worked on, and that'll be huge to just say, no mandatory binary definition of the sexes.

[Matt Fradd]

You said these studies that said surgery or suicide had originally come out of Europe, and these are being debunked. So is it the case that in Europe they're turning the page quicker than we are then? And what is that looking like over there? And what is the legality of it looking over there?

[Marcella Burke]

And lawsuits and children can't get the surgeries. They've just stopped doing it entirely.

[Matt Fradd]

Since when? Or has just been a gradual past couple years. Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

Yep, yep. So we're getting caught up. Wow.

[Matt Fradd]

And another thing you do is you help people who are being sort of persecuted by the DEI mob.

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, yeah, we've ended up going on there. Yeah. That's another fun one. DEI diversity, Equity and inclusion is a movement that's gone through, I would say, corporate America. And it's this idea that we want to have diversity in the workplace, and so we're gonna force the demographics of the workplace. Now, what that contends with is Title VII of the Civil Rights act. And that's the legislation, famously, that says you can't discriminate based on race, based on sex, based on religion, for example. And so you cannot discriminate against black people in hiring. Obviously, if there was something saying, well, we're not hiring any more black people, that would be a very natural ananthema. Like, obviously, you can't do that. Well, the law applies equally to white people or Asian people, for example. And so we've seen cases out of the Supreme Court recently that in university admissions, you can't discriminate against people on university admissions. And the dicta of that case that this also applies to corporate America. So now we're seeing cases come in, and my law firm's taking them of people who say, I was denied promotion because I didn't fit a right demographic. And we also see cases where in their DEI training, so you have annual trainings you have to do, and your company policy will say, well, if you don't do all of our trainings, then you're not going to have your employment, you'll be disciplined. And so then they'll incorporate into the training the transgender ideology. And so they'll have parts of the training that say things like, if you have someone that wants you to use their preferred pronouns, what are you going to do? Yes or no? And they click no, and it's not an option. Wrong answer. You can't finish the training till you click yes. So you cannot be. You cannot be certified that you've done the training without bearing false witness. And so a Christian, a Jew, can say, I can't bear false witness. And I will not lie. I will be happy to work in an environment, be respectful, figure something out. But I also have rights as a Christian, as a Muslim, as a religious person, or even, I think, as a. As a unreligiously affiliated person to just say no. You can't just compel speech. And so. And so those are really interesting cases that we also win, where we just write a demand letter and we say, listen, the Constitution, Title vii, these are kind of fun letters to write and say, you know, you need to. We need to find it. You need to give us a reasonable accommodation to these employees. They can't bear false witnesses, and 100% of the time they do. And in a lot of these cases, we've been able to completely obliterate the DEI regime.

[Matt Fradd]

Really?

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, yeah. And you see major companies like John Deere, and there's just dozens of them now that have come up.

[Matt Fradd]

It sounded like Walmart is backing out of some of this stuff, too.

[Marcella Burke]

Well, it's totally illegal, so all these companies are doing it. It's totally illegal. And so all you have to do is get a few people that have had the same type of discrimination. So we are working with a company now that has over 100,000 employees, and they have dozens of people from the same company who've called me together and they've said so. We've interviewed all of them. And you have a group of white men, you have a group of Christian women, you have different groups, and that's called a class action. And so then if you can get certified as a class, when they do a Title VII civil rights saying, you need to defend us. The way that system works is you represent everybody that's similarly situated in your company. And so not only do you get damages for yourself, but they multiply it by how many people in the company that you represent. And so the damages are, like, massively multiplied. This is incredibly scary for these companies because suddenly you go from having to pay out two years of salary to somebody and paying two years of salary out to a ton of people. And there are types of damages you get that are punitive, where the jury can say, and also, just because this is so bad, you got to pay an extra penalty of how much. So Starbucks had to pay. They wanted to fire a woman because she's white. And they said, we just want someone of, you know.

[Matt Fradd]

And that was unvarnished. That's what.

[Marcella Burke]

No, these companies are all unvarnished. Okay, so this is.

[Matt Fradd]

They didn't come up with a fake reason.

[Marcella Burke]

No, this is all. Everything is a smoking gun. We don't take the complicated cases. I'm like, I want to see the email that says it's cause you're white. Great. That's the smoking gun.

[Matt Fradd]

It's okay. So how did they fire her? Tell me what they said.

[Marcella Burke]

They very publicly fired her, and it's not my case, but she got a $25 million judgment against Starbucks that she took home. It's just so illegal. You cannot do that. You cannot discriminate based on race.

[Matt Fradd]

And they said, we're firing you because you're what? Yeah, Dear Lord.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. So these are easy cases. You know, these are easy cases. And so now we have a docket that takes on these cases. And I think, again, what can one person do? Well, just do the little things. You can't bear false witness. It's not complicated.

[Matt Fradd]

Don't lie.

[Marcella Burke]

Don't lie.

[Matt Fradd]

It's. I mean, it's easy for me to say that. I mean, I run a little Catholic podcast, and obviously you've got to be careful about what you put on YouTube. This might get us banned. We'll see what happens. But I've spoken to people who work in the secular world, and they say, you know, they're sitting around at these meetings and they're saying, tell us about how you have yourself been racist or have contributed to racism. And my friends, like, they've got. They've got kids, they got a wife, and so.

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, just record it. We call that free money at our law firm. And you know what? You still live in America, and there's a lot of companies and there's a lot of jobs out there, and it will not ruin your life. And you settle and you sign a non disparagement, and you're not going to say anything bad about them, and they're not going to say anything bad about you. Now, we have some clients who will sign a non disparagement, but they won't sign what's called a confidentiality agreement. They want to be able to tell their story. They want to be able to go to guys like Robbie Starbuck who are on Twitter that are exposing these woke companies for what they're doing, and they want to be able to take the whole thing down. And so we have some clients who choose that path too. And so there's different paths you can take, but at the end of the day, it's not an option. You cannot bear false witness. This is very clear. It's a commandment. It's not a request. And so just do something about it. Don't bear false witness. And also with these cases, they're called, usually contingency, which means the. The employee doesn't pay the lawyer. If the lawyer. If it's a good case, then the lawyer takes it and I take on the expense. And so there's no expense. And then if and when they win, then I get paid on the back end when they get their settlement. And so you don't really have a ton to lose. And with a lot of these Title VII cases, once you file a claim, they can't fire you. It's called retaliation. You keep your job.

[Matt Fradd]

It must be a fun work environment.

[Marcella Burke]

Well, actually, for a lot of these people, they're coworkers are like, thank God you said something. It's so oppressive. And some of these guys have had people in the C suite say, thank God you said something. We have this general counsel, this head of DE&I, and they're sitting in all of our executive meetings, and it's crushing our workforce. And some of these, like oil companies, for example, where they need the meritocracy, they need people who are engineers, they need people. And they have unqualified people taking roles because of DE and I, and they're like, thank God they're looking for the little guy, someone, an analyst, somebody in hr, someone speak up. Because then the demand letter goes to the board, and they have to decide what to do. And they finally say, this is illegal. We cannot do this. And that's how it ends.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay, what is the least amount a company can do for DEI that you can sue them for? So obviously, if they're firing you because you're white, I get that you can sue them for that, but what's the least amount of kind of DEI they can impose upon you before you can have recourse?

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, there's so many things that are illegal. A company can't offer any, any kind of preference in hiring to someone based on anything in Title VII, religion, race. There's a U.S. supreme Court case called Bostock, which applies Title VII to if you're gay or not. And so they can't prefer gay people in hiring. They can't discriminate against gay people in hiring, but they can't prefer him either.

[Matt Fradd]

I have to say, like, I was not sure that Trump would be elected. You know, people would say, I trust the American people. I'm like, no, I don't. We're all idiots. And we've all bought into this BS that's been pumped down our throat from Hollywood and big tech and universities for so long. I don't trust Americans at all. I have so much more faith in the American people because I feel like what they did is they were like, we're sick of it. And a lot of what they were sick of is the dei, the trans stuff. And I just feel. I don't know about you, but I just feel like I trust people on airplanes more. Oh, my gosh. Maybe most of us also realize this is insane. This is, you know, the emperor not wearing any clothes. And we just went, he doesn't have clothes on.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And everyone's like, oh, good, we can stop pretending.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. One of the refrain I hear the most is that people didn't realize that Title VII applied to them. They thought it actually only applied to, say, gay people or black people or something. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. The laws in America apply to all people.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so absolutely we shouldn't discriminate, but we can't discriminate against anybody. And so the way the law is actually established is a meritocracy. And so all we have to do is speak up. The law as written is already enforcing these ideas. And so all that needs to happen is people to stand up for their rights. We don't even need new legislation when it comes to DE and I. We just need individuals to speak up, to rise to the occasion, call a lawyer, and we'll tell you what to collect what information. You know, what are the smoking guns they can't give. You can't give scholarships to people in hiring. You can't have meetings for one group without excluding the others. You can't have, like a diversity happy hour.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. I think I remember there was a university that did just a black graduation. So just the black students throw out.

[Marcella Burke]

And then that is totally illegal. Totally illegal. Can't do it.

[Matt Fradd]

What about, like, you know, black dorm rooms, things like that that they have?

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, if you're excluding.

[Matt Fradd]

They are. Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

Then, yeah, that would be A problem. Illegal. Just imagine there was just white dorm rooms.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, exactly.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Only white people are allowed here. That's racist.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. Illegal.

[Matt Fradd]

But if you do it to another race, it might be okay, but it's not. Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so, yeah, I'm so glad that.

[Matt Fradd]

You'Re doing what you're doing. So, I mean, there must be. Since money is what drives the market here, there must be just a ton of lawyers beginning to realize that there is a cash cow here waiting to be had to talk about it very crassly. No, this whole DEI trans stuff, there must be lawyers ready to make hay.

[Marcella Burke]

I hope so.

[Matt Fradd]

I hope so, too.

[Marcella Burke]

I hope so, I hope so. Nothing like a good opportunistic lawyer to set the record straight. Absolutely. I hope other people. I hope. I hope that this becomes a thing.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, let's take a break, and then we'll take questions from local supporters. You were saying Twitter did what or is doing what?

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, the role of Twitter. So in this culture, with DEI and with transgender, the way that if someone speaks up against a regime, a politically unpopular regime, what the left can do traditionally, is they've been able to isolate that person and shame them, and they can get fired or humiliated, and you sort of play whack a mole, and you can lop off the dissenters. But thanks to the Internet and to X specifically, people can, on their X account, either through a pseudonym or an om de plume, or as themselves, speak up. And so on Twitter, you see a huge amount of conversation about these issues and people speaking up and connecting. And people can just send a DM to Robby Starbuck and say, this is happening at my company. And they can DM one another and say, here's what's going on. Can you help? I can DM the attorney general of a state and say, hey, I'm taking these cases, and we have a witness in your state. Do you want to set up a call? And set up a call the next day. I mean, Twitter has totally enabled the conversation. And not only that, it's created this community where you're no longer isolated since Musk took over. Absolutely. And so now you have people that can come to your defense, and the left can't play. That tactic of isolating and annihilating doesn't work. And so it's been really revolutionary. And in our lawsuit with Dr. Heim, the whistleblower, recently, something that happened was that the government. So Aton, Dr. Heim and I on our Twitter accounts will just tweet transcripts from hearings, excerpts and transcripts from public court filings. So it's all public. And it'll be a little dialogue between the judge and the government where basically they're being completely humiliated or decimated or something in our filings that we say that just totally takes them down. And so we will publish Twitter threads about what happened. So it'll cut out all the legalese, but just make all the arguments. The government filed after they filed their third indictment, this outrageous indictment against Dr. Heim, they also filed what's called a motion to gag. And they argued that I, Marcella Burke and Dr. Heim, we were bullying the government with our tweets and that the, the judge should put a gag on us so we can no longer do this. I mean, the clear First Amendment issues here, for the government to come against a criminally accused man who's innocent, 100% innocent till proven guilty, you can speak, but what you say can be used against you. But now they're saying you can't even speak because it makes us look bad. Because what is he tweeting about? The lead prosecutor on the case has been taken off the case, possibly for very serious conflicts, issues that came up. At one point, we discovered she was practicing and prosecuting our client without a law license that was exposed on Twitter when it wouldn't have otherwise been exposed just through our public documents. I mean, all these things started coming out about the government's case. So what happens? X intervenes in our lawsuit. They filed a brief defending my and my clients First Amendment rights and make. And sending this beautiful magnum opus on the role of X in the free speech and in these, in these sort of issues. And also not the Bee. So the Babylon Bee, the satirical website, also has not the B. And that's sort of news that should be satire, but isn't. And it's a news aggregator, but it's actually. It's news. And so they intervened and defended us and our free speech rights. And they, the government also tried to file. They filed a bunch of stuff under seal, it's called, which means they file it, but the public can't read it and we can't share it with the public. But there's strict rules about what can be under seal because the public is. The taxpayers are paying for these prosecutions. And so why are these things under seal? And so not the B said, as a press aggregator, we need to know what's going on. And so they file that motion. And so, you know, thanks to groups like X, not the B. Well, how do I connect with These guys, I can dm. Yeah, I can just send a DM and say, this is what's going on. And in that case, there's an amazing lawyer called Harmeet Dhillon that deserves a shout out. And I just called her and I said, harmeet, she's a free speech lawyer in California, but other types of cases. And I said, hey, you know, we need help on this. And so she represented X and not the B when they intervened. And so again, another brave lawyer. And there's basically so few lawyers taking these cases that I could just call her because I can reach out to her on dm. And so I think my point is to not underestimate the role of X and the Internet. And when you're speaking up at these companies that there is a huge network of people that will come to your defense and you will not be isolated. And the law is set up to protect you. And if they retaliate against you, all that does is give you more damages. And it's that. That's what's going to put an end to it, is that you're not going to be isolated. You're going to have, you know, all these people coming to your aid and the government can't stop it. The government cannot stop X.

[Matt Fradd]

Exciting.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, thank you. I want to take questions from our local supporters. This is the part of the interview where I look into the camera and make everybody feel awk. Awkward and let them know, ask you please, if you would consider supporting Pints with aquinas [e-mail] when you become an annual supporter, you will get these interviews one week early. You'll join an amazing, supportive community. You'll get a free pints with Aquinas beer stein. You just have to pay shipping. You get to ask our guests questions. You have exclusive streams from moi, a ton of other things besides. But please consider it because it really does actually keep the show running. Matt fried.locals.com thank you. All right, so here we go. I haven't read these. So let's see. Mr. Len says infanticide. Could hospitals be sued for withholding treatment for baby born alive? Could they be sued for wrongful death and. Or malpractice? Who would have standing to sue in such a case? Yeah, any. That's not your plane of expertise, but any idea.

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, I think in general, again, health care, state law. So it depends on the state law who would have standing. And wrongful death is typically the next of kin. And so if a woman is there to have an abortion presumably she wouldn't necessarily then want to sue if she later finds out that the baby was born alive but then suffocated. Or there's different things that they do to euthanize, to murder the baby. Usually sell them for body parts, of course, as we all know now. But presumably she would have standing if she fits within that statute of limitations. And depending on the state, it could be even the next of kin, like grandparents, presumably. But that's just something where you'd have to have lawyers research each state's law to discover who has standing and you know whether that practice is illegal at all. I mean, in some states you just can't do that at all. So if it's happening, then you would absolutely have redress. And also you could call the attorney general and the state could investigate too.

[Matt Fradd]

I want to tell you about Hallow, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hallowed.com Matt Frad sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time you can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com Matt Frad I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music, including my Lo Fi hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150, 50 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hallow.com Matt Fradd the link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent you could play little bible stories to them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com Matt Fried Daniel S. Asked is suing these doctors and hospitals who are performing these transgender surgeries going to bring about action, actual change on these fronts and how?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, yeah, I think it's going to end the procedures entirely. And I think a lot of the doctors performing these surgeries, they're going to begin to be exposed as individuals. It's like abortion. And that it's not is that, you know, the Kermit Gosnell figures will emerge. And who are these individuals that really just all day, every day do this to kids? There's gosh. And we learned about it On X too, because there's a number of, of, of patients who've learned, thanks to, thanks to X, that, for example, their doctor will, in their top sides, put in a certain shaped scar, which is like their signature scar. And so they're realizing that they're sort of being marked by their doctors. And so that's another.

[Matt Fradd]

This is like experiments in Nazi Germany stuff.

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's getting exposed in real time immediately as opposed to having to wait for the end of a three or four year litigation so it can be exposed in real time. And I think. Thanks. This is again, part of the, to the extent people have that courage, if that's part of what they're being called to expose, is how publicly they want to expose it.

[Matt Fradd]

Dear. Gosh.

[Marcella Burke]

Right, yeah. So no, it works. I mean, this is, it's called lawfare. And the left has used it against the right for a really long time. And what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And so to the extent people are willing to stand up and make the same claims, the case precedent is there.

[Matt Fradd]

Sam says who should be held liable for sex change surgeries on minors. I mean, how many doctors, he says, would you say are coerced into the surgery by their hospitals? It's still not a great argument when you stand before Almighty God and you say, the hospital said they'd fire me unless I mutilated a child. But who should be held liable?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, under the law, anyone who performs them is liable. So anybody in the room is liable. And so it's, they're, they're facing very serious criminal charges. To the extent that they're investigated, it's up to the state to decide whom they prosecute. So they could choose a doctor, and depending on how high it goes up and the approvals, the CEO or people within the organization. And that really is the discretion of the prosecutors. And so there's going to be prosecutorial discretion about whom they go after. But under the laws written, it could be anybody who participates.

[Matt Fradd]

Sam also asks, should DEI be pursued under any circumstances? Not sure what he means there, but he says, should churches and diocese pursue dei? I guess he means by. Yeah, so I mean, first of all, I mean, are dioceses implementing de.

[Marcella Burke]

And I, I mean, I don't know if a diocese has an HR director or someone who's the head of DEI within a diocese, then possibly, possibly they are. You know, I wouldn't know. I don't, I don't have any cases against the diocese to answer that directly. But it is fairly ubiquitous, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn if it's happening in diocese.

[Matt Fradd]

This person asks, what do you believe the core of DEI is? Can it be used for good? Or is it like socialism starting out as a good idea, but will never work in practice?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, the history of DEI and HR is really interesting. When the communism fell after the Cold War, some of the big famous communists made statements like, we will not be able to spread communism through bullets and bombs, but we'll have to infiltrate from within organizations. And that was actually the beginning of HR. And so you could have HR that's just there to process W2s and 1099s and here's your onboarding paperwork. But really that could be done easily through like a CFO function or even just an administrative assistant that's tasked with those types of things. To the extent HR is really a tool within your organization to implement and enforce illegal DEI practices, that's very problematic. And that's sort of what I experienced is, why aren't you attending these calls? Why don't you have pronouns on your bio? Why isn't it in your signature? And I worked somewhere once where they actually took the ability for you to manipulate your signature off of your outlook. And so you only had an image, and so it had to have your pronouns. And so I would, I would not use it. And then I would copy and paste from old emails. And then you have someone from HR saying, well, someone's flagged that you're using. You're still not use, you know, using your pronouns. And so that's all HR within your organization enforcing illegal conduct. So it really depends. It's case by case basis. But the. Your companies can't force you and compel you to bear false witness.

[Matt Fradd]

You know, I want to ask, but it might sound a little disparaging, but when did the insane people start running the asylum? But all of these people are. It's worse than insane. I mean, you're not culpable for insanity. You're culpable for lying and perpetuating evil. But do you have any theories as you, as you think about this, how this, how this took off so quickly that people would demand that you put your pronouns in your email?

[Marcella Burke]

Well, I think that like every lie, it's the twisting of the truth. And everybody wants to work in somewhere where it's inclusive. And I don't want to work at a place that discriminates people based on, you know, whatever. Yeah, you want to have the best person for the job and so that is the. That is the kernel of truth. But what we're seeing with DEI is that it's not the best person for the job, all things being equal and making sure that we're getting the right person for the job that isn't being discriminated against because of one of these things. This is actually the best, you know, rocket scientist. And we don't want her to be discriminated against because she's a woman. That's, of course, great. But when it's being used that we actually don't care about what. How good of a rocket scientist this person is. We want her because she's a woman and she doesn't have the resumes everybody else. That's when it becomes a problem. And so I think that that's where. That's that lie, where it provokes that justice. Bone, we all have that, no, we should not discriminate. We should have the best people for every job. And then you get. It becomes very confusing. And then on top of that, it comes from above. And you do feel very scared. There's so many diversity trainings. There's so many things, you know, Gay Pride month might be, you know, really, you know, the lgbtq and it's very heavy on the tq. You've got a lot of companies with doing, you know, drag shows and all these, you know, drag story time hour for kids at their companies. I mean, it's so prevalent and so ubiquitous that they do feel oppressed. But there's really interesting precedent, I think it's out of the 10th Circuit that says that actually Christians could have a hostile work environment claim that it's so ubiquitous in the company that they could say working there is such a hostile work environment that I can't. That you would have a claim for hostile work environment. And so. And that's like a factor test that they put through that I think could be very interesting if adopted in other circuits. And so, anyway, I can't remember the original question, but.

[Matt Fradd]

No, that's good. SparksParkBoom says, do you have any advice for U.S. attorneys who are wanting to get into the culture of litigation also, can I have a job?

[Marcella Burke]

Ha. Send a resume. You know, there's a couple of really good groups that do a lot of this stuff that you can sign up for pro bono. There's a group called Alliance Defending Freedom, and they're a national organization. I think they're the largest First Amendment law firm. And they have not only their own bench of lawyers full time, but they also have what's called Allied Attorneys. And these are volunteer lawyers who get trained. And then when people call Alliance Vetting Freedom, saying, I'm a Christian or Jew or whomever, and they're discriminating against me in DEI or whatever, well, then if you're signed up as an Allied Attorney, you're on the mailing list. And so you get emails saying, hey, Texas attorneys, we have a nurse in Fort Worth. This is happening. Can anybody represent her? And so any lawyer in America can go to the ADF website, go to their training, and then join the Allied Network. And then these cases are being taken across the country through the Alliance Vending Freedom. And the Alliance Vending Freedom has been a huge ally in our case. They've given Dr. Heim some grants for his litigation. They've had him present at their annual events and really endorsed him and come to his aid. And so the Allied Alliance Vetting Freedom is a really an amazing organization, not only to defend conscience rights, but also taking on dei. And so that would be an organization that I would commend.

[Matt Fradd]

Reminiscelogic says, what advice can be given for leaving a state like California, which continues to take parents right away regarding children mutilation?

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, I have high hopes for California. I think I do. I do. I think that California will flip eventually back. I just do. And I think I have friends that are holdouts there that live there and won't move. And I think that's great and that's worthy. I would say, though, if you live in a state where they're literally, you are already engaged with CPS that is already threatening to take away your child, you move. You move. And so that's an easy question.

[Matt Fradd]

Nice thing about moving from California is you can usually get a much bigger plot of land and a much bigger, nicer house.

[Marcella Burke]

You sure could. You sure could.

[Matt Fradd]

Liz Anderson says, with the recent election, do you think DEI is on its way out or is it too entrenched at this point?

[Marcella Burke]

I think it's on the way out. It's illegal. And so they're already. You're already seeing major corporations put a stop to it. So I do think it's on the way out. It's definitely been curbed, and we have a lot of really good precedent. You see a lot of these companies wanting to settle and just get rid of DEI because they don't. I think they don't want the lawsuit. So we have that case in the Supreme Court saying that it's illegal to discriminate in university admissions. And then the dicta, which is the judge's opinion that also says it would apply to corporate America. You're seeing a lot of these companies wanting to settle because they don't want to go all the way back to the Supreme Court to be that case to prove that theory. And so we're winning a lot of this through people complaining and settling. And I do. We. We're seeing a domino effect already.

[Matt Fradd]

Michael asks, is there criminal liability as well as civil on the doctors that perform the procedures? Is there an argument for reconvening the Nuremberg Courts for crimes against humanity?

[Marcella Burke]

Yes, yes. They should be held to task. We absolutely could hold them accountable. Congress can do hearings. There's nothing stopping Congress right now from holding a hearing and whatever committees are responsible for Medicaid fraud and responsible for regulating hospitals to say, well, let's have the CEO of Texas Children's Hospital come and answer some questions, and let's have these doctors come and answer some questions. You've been. You've already said in court this one thing about this not being experimental, but you've applied to the nih. There's nothing stopping Congress from subpoenaing him and demanding he come and testify. So you could have absolutely accountability in the public square through litigation. But also Congress can act.

[Matt Fradd]

Ralph Raymond says, how can the new presidential administration help have an impact on reducing the mutilation of children?

[Marcella Burke]

How can which have a.

[Matt Fradd]

Help the new presidential administration?

[Marcella Burke]

So, I mean, on the transgender piece, through executive orders, things like the mandatory binary definition of the sexes by presidential directive, he could say federal buildings could only fly the American flag, which means the transgender flags come down from all the embassies across the country where they're currently flying the eeoc, the Employment Commission Equal Opportunity Office. They could change what they're enforcing and they could start enforcing and taking these cases. There's just a lot, a lot that the President can do. So the President controls the agencies that administer all these laws, and so the President can then direct, through executive order, you know how we want these laws to be administered and just turn the tables. So, absolutely, if that's what he chooses to do.

[Matt Fradd]

Matt Fabiano says, what would you say to someone who's thoroughly catechised into wokeism about the evils about trans ideology? I try to explain some of this stuff to my sister, but she'll have none of it. Have you had that experience, having to try to.

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, I think it was.

[Matt Fradd]

I think it was Rogan who first used the term ideologically captured, but I think that's a good term.

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. I think Elon calls it the woke mind virus. It's tough, it's really tough. And I think that you can try to do the little things with great love. You don't want to be probably the insufferable scold.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so at some point you just have to, you can do all that you can do. And then you pray. I mean you go to adoration, you pray a rosary and you believe that it's all happening for a reason and that hopefully the person can get out of it. But I mean there's really only so much that you can do. But I will say I think prayer is very powerful obviously. And then when you have that opportunity just to say those little things and say them with great love, you know, try to say them with a smile and then that's all you can do.

[Matt Fradd]

There's that cliche, but it's true that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. My wife and I have someone who's quite close to us, I'll leave it at that, who presents as the sex that she isn't. And you know, this person is aware of our stance, eh? So my wife beautifully realizes that she doesn't need to bring this up, she just needs to keep the communication open and just loving her and you know, supporting her. And so I guess trying to keep communication open but it is difficult when you get to a conversation where you feel like I don't. It's interesting that the side who for so long told us about being open to new ideas and not being closed minded seemed to be very uninterested in having an open minded discussion. It's tough. Deborah says, I find it implausible that the doctors are ignorant of the horrific lives of mental and emotional torment to which they are condemning their patients. Please comment on the psychological profile of the doctors imposing lifetimes of suffering.

[Marcella Burke]

I think that some of these guys and women are really deranged. There's really no other way to say it. And you listen to their testimony and some of them have tick tocks and it's very troubling what you see. And so just being willing to call a spade a spade, that this is sick and it's twisted and you're experimenting on children. But I'm not a psychologist and I don't, I don't know criminal profiles. But a lot of these doctors are on the record saying things like that they are creating new life and that they're on the vanguard and so they have this true God complex. And you hear that about doctors. Like, oh, doctors, they've got God complexes. Some of these guys really do. And gals. And they brag about it, and they're so proud of what they're doing and these new creations that they're creating. And so.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow.

[Marcella Burke]

So I don't know, but I do think books will be written about some of these. The Gosnells, the Kermit Gosnells of the transgender movement. And what is the psychological profile of these people?

[Matt Fradd]

What's crazy is that that can come out about Gosnell and about Planned Parenthood selling baby parts, and no one seemed to care. Like, that didn't seem to make much of a dent in the left's public opinion about abortion.

[Marcella Burke]

I think that that was before Twitter really took off with Elon. I think that there's, of course, a huge amount of public outcry, but there was no way for people to express it.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[Marcella Burke]

And that the legacy media has really been complicit in suppressing just the average American's perception of these things. And so now you are seeing. And if that were to have happened, you know, if the Kermit Gosnell would have been discovered today and not. I think it was maybe 13 years.

[Matt Fradd]

Ago or something, but even with the body part selling, I mean, that's happened during social media days. And, like, where is the big lefties? Where's people like Whoopi Goldberg and these others condemning this practice?

[Marcella Burke]

They are on the. They are sucked into the ideology wild. They have their marching orders, and they know the assignment.

[Matt Fradd]

You know, it's. There's a lot of accusations these days about people lying. Hey, you know, like, they're lying. I'm more increasingly of the opinion that believing our lies is the fruit of lying. And so I wonder, you know, not to pick on Whoopi, but I wonder if she just really thinks that she's doing the good thing here and isn't aware of how wrong it is to kill children in the womb.

[Marcella Burke]

I don't know.

[Matt Fradd]

How blind must you be?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah. I mean, some of it with abortion, I don't sympathize with it, but in some ways, you can understand it, because the message is so clear that if you have a pregnancy, a surprise pregnancy, that this baby is a threat.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

A threat to your success.

[Matt Fradd]

No. 100%. We have to be as sympathetic as we can. I mean, just like I was sitting before Chloe Cole and. Yeah, like, I get it. Like, I get it. I'm so sorry. Like, you felt ostracized. I can understand that. You felt welcomed by this apparent community. I get it.

[Marcella Burke]

It's harder to, I think, understand the transgender ideology and getting insect into that because. Because again, it's. It's. What is the threat of your current body exactly? Like, what exactly is your child being facing if they just get through puberty and decide later, for example? It is hard for me to understand.

[Matt Fradd]

And that's suicide. That's the thread, right? That's the threat that was given to them.

[Marcella Burke]

But they don't have that anymore, praise God. And so I think we are going to see. It's part of why I feel so strongly that I think we're going to see a decline in it, because the truth, the truth bats last and the truth will prevail. And so as long as we have the platforms from which to tell the truth, the truth will prevail. And I think that's what we're seeing on this. I think we're going to see it more with abortion. And of course, we've already seen a decline in surgical abortion. Really the abortion we see now is the pills that they take, the morning after pill. I mean, that's really the ubiquitous abortion now. And I think that we're going to start seeing side effects from that and how much that harms women's bodies. And we're going to start seeing lawsuits against the manufacturers of those pills. And so it just takes time for the truth to come out and for people to speak up and tell their stories how this harmed me, how when I took this pill, this harmed me. I mean, one interesting thing about the morning after pill is you start seeing some of these states, the blue states, there's an intervention you can do. So you take the first pill, and I believe what that does is it stops your progesterone. It like, starves the child to death. And then the second pill is what extracts that baby. But after you take the first pill, you can intervene and women will Google, like, how do I stop it? And so you can, I think it's progesterone, but don't quote me on that. But you can have a huge intervention and save the baby. And so what states are doing is they're making it. There's legislation to make it illegal to intervene on an abortion where doctors are not allowed to prescribe that progesterone for that use.

[Matt Fradd]

You can't change your mind having begun to kill your child.

[Marcella Burke]

That's right. So it's supposed to be your choice, but then their state saying, no. And so, you know, the emperor has no clothes again, the goal is not women's choice. The goal is eugenics. The goal is to end the life of that child. And so that's all, that's all coming out and being exposed.

[Matt Fradd]

Luke Renwick says, what can the American legal system borrow or use as a framework from the successful litigation in the EU causing widespread reversal of so called trans medicine treatment and surgery on minors?

[Marcella Burke]

And that's what we're already seeing is that we, we can now say all those studies that this was based on have been debunked. And so now these doctors have nothing to stand on. And so we're actually already. That's what we're already doing is we're just making those arguments in these cases and winning.

[Matt Fradd]

Are there people like you in Europe crushing it for victims of trans ideology?

[Marcella Burke]

I actually know a lot of the European litigation. They have such a different legal system over there. It's entirely different from our whole legal structure and form of government. I don't think that in Europe they're winning based on lawsuits. I think that they're winning because their entire system is premised on experts in a way that ours isn't so much. And so once those reports are pulled that like, is an automatic. It almost serves the same function of changing the law by pulling those studies. Here we have this whole legal system and the expert reports are submitted. And so it's just a little bit more of a process here to get it undone. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay. Cody Schonly says, is this just an unprecedented phase? As a young business owner with a team of 60 people in deep blue Colorado, I sometimes have a hard time sleeping at night with labor and DEI liabilities. Is there any light at the end of this DEI tunnel or are we in for it for decades to come?

[Marcella Burke]

I think that's similar to the previous question. You know, is this, is this a permanent thing? I think it's going to end. I think that we're going to see lawsuits and you'll have some belligerent holdover corporation that says, no, we are going to take this lawsuit and maybe at some point there will be a case in front of the Supreme Court. And that would just put a nail in the coffin. The left tends to overreach. And so I think we may see a case like that. I don't know. We have a couple cases right now where we're still negotiating with companies and if they decide, you know what? No. And we have one legal team, a general counsel of a major corporation sent me an email saying that no Boz talk this opinion by Neil Gorsuch saying that Title VII applies to gay, transgender, all of that, that no, we actually can force you to do this DEI training because your rights conflict with theirs. And so we were able to say, you know, no, that's not a proper understanding of Bostock. In that case, there was no actual transgender employee with rights to be enforced against our Christian employees rights. And so we were able to say that that's an idea of a person. It's not a true person. We don't actually have a true boss talk case, you know, whose rights prevail? The transgender person who wants their pronouns or the Christian who says, I can't bear false witness. But that specific case could turn into a real litigation. If they do hire a transgender person who then does work with our. Our employee who is still there, by the way. And then that would be a case I think she would be very interested in taking up. And if the company fights it, maybe my law firm does take that case. I don't know. But right now, we don't have a case that actually has the rights under the two different groups within Title vii. Sort of clashing.

[Matt Fradd]

Cell rack, by the way, we just need to pause and say, how amazing are my supporters? I mean, these questions are fantastic. Like, how clued in and intellectually engaged are these people? Cellrack says have parents sometimes been criminally involved as well, or will this happen eventually? Would be interesting. Sorry to ask such a horrifying question. Not that there's anything new about terrible parents. It's just. It's a whole new form of it.

[Marcella Burke]

I do think there's categories sort of parents. I hate to, I don't want to over categorize. There are parents who are duped into it and they really trust doctors and they really trust teachers, and they do believe it's suicide or surgery. You then have categories of parents where this is sort of like the nouveau thing that they learned in college. And it's these luxury beliefs about, you know, gender is a thing of, sex is a thing of the past, and now it's gender fluidity. And there's a social cache that certain demographics of, like women out of college and their social circles, you know, all have kids that are transitioning. And so there's some culpability there, like a vanity project of the parents. And then I do think there's a category of parents that really are sort of maliciously involved with the doctors on the experimentation piece. And that's the smallest, probably category. Regardless, under the law, I think that prosecutors would have a discretion of whom that they would want to prosecute. And I would like to imagine that to the extent a parent could ever be prosecuted, that they would use their discretion to only go after the worst of the worst. And that would be, you know, the prudent form of using the prosecutorial powers of the government. But. But in these cases, it's like abortion. They don't go after the women. They go after the hospitals and the doctors.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Marcella Burke]

And so typically, you will never see parents brought into this. That parents are also the victims here, I would say. And. And so we. We have to see the parents as the victims too, and want to reach out to them because, you know, what they've done and what they've colluded in is very serious. And it's very difficult emotionally for the parents to admit what they've done. It's very hard.

[Matt Fradd]

That was. That was actually gonna be my next question. I know we have people who watch this show whose children have transitioned, and presumably, for the most part, they were against it. But what kind of advice or encouragement do you have to a mother or father who did go along with this or even encourage it?

[Marcella Burke]

Yeah, I mean, repent and be saved. Right. And pray, and that's what you can do. And you want to try to keep those paths of conversation open. I know parents. There's a great network of parents that I know of across the country that are connected and they have zoom calls and they have new parents. Reach out to them and join the calls and have a community of parents that advise one another. Dr. Heim has been invited to speak to them before. I've been invited to talk to them and just try to provide some hope and encouragement, consolation, and introduce them to one another so they can give each other advice on that. I think books will be written by some of these parents that'll come out and then serve as definitive resources. We're still so on the front end of it, but I do know some parents right now where their son, for example, is in the movement and they just can't talk about it. The son knows the parents position. The position. The parents know the son's position, and they want to remain in a relationship, and so they don't condone any of it. And the son will push boundaries, and the parents have to, you know, enforce their boundaries. But I think it's always healthy when it comes to boundaries is when you set a boundary. A boundary doesn't control the other person. We can't control other people. And so boundaries for our. Is, how do you control yourself? And so you know, we. In our house, we don't. We don't indulge this ideology, you know, so when you come here, let's talk about other things. You know, that's what we talk about in our house. And so you. You. You enforce your boundaries for yourself and your home, but you can't force other people. And that's something that's just. That's a difficult lesson for every parent to learn.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, I'm so glad that you're doing what you're doing. Final question from Cigar and Roses. It was recently reported that the pro trans, Dr. Johanna Olson Kennedy finished her study in which the results casted a negative light on transgender ideology, so she refused to publish them. Are there other studies being done that have been done in addition to hers by less politically motivated actors?

[Marcella Burke]

Oh, there's a lot of studies out there, and there's a really interesting case out of Alabama where there was a ton of discovery on what's called wpath. And it's an organization that's done a lot of this research, and the research has been proven to be wrong. And so the head of the nih. What's his name? The transgender. Why is his name.

[Matt Fradd]

I forget his name.

[Marcella Burke]

Anyway, Biden's guy has emails between WPATH and NIH and different hospitals and saying that you need to change these results. And all of those documents have been. Those emails are in discovery, open to the public, and the Alabama Attorney general has hyperlinked all of them, so open for the world to see and to challenge those studies and to challenge what the government did and to challenge what the NIH did. And so there are studies out there that are being suppressed. But again, Internet, it's there for lawyers to peruse. And I know a number of law firms that are thinking about, how can we, you know, take this on? And then, of course, there are studies being conducted now by doctors and researchers, social workers, who are compiling data on truly the result of this on children, and then those studies will be published. And again, it's only a matter of time. And could the federal government, instead of, you know, choose to fund that research? Absolutely, it could. And so we might see the government, the state and federal government fund that type of research. You know, if I had all the money in the world, I would personally fund it. And so there are doctors and researchers who stand ready, applying for funding and who are already doing this work. So, you know, we're on the. We're. We're still in the beginning of a lot of this litigation, and I think over the Years. We'll start seeing a lot more of that research, for sure.

[Matt Fradd]

I used to work for Catholic Answers, and back in 2012 or 2013, I spoke at the Catholic Answers Conference and I gave a talk on transgender ideology. What's wild is I think I've got the talk written somewhere. It was unbelievable. People actually didn't realize that there were people raising their sons as daughters. It was a novel idea. To think of how quickly this has moved is mind boggling. I spoke to a priest at the time as I was writing this talk, and he had the wisdom to say, I think this transgender thing is going to eat its own head. Like, it's not. It can't last. So it's been really. Yeah. I mean, it's heartbreaking to hear of the victims of transgender ideology, but it's also heartening to realize that there are good people like yourself and these other wonderful people who've been through this awful ordeal and who are now speaking out about it and who are supporting people. And the truth's coming to light. So thank you so much for the work that you're doing. Where do people learn more about you, find out more about you? Anything else you want to say?

[Marcella Burke]

I mean, we have a website, Vertgroup Law, you know, hire us to do your average day to day legal work. People, you know, we don't only do this trying to build a law firm, taking these cases, but, you know, it's just been an honor. I would, I would say that the. It really has been a huge honor to represent Dr. Heim, Vanessa Sivage, Jamie Reed, work with a lot of these whistleblowers and to play a small part. And it really is just one little decision at a time. I think that's, you know, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And so you do the little that you can do. And, you know, I can pull my kids out of school. I can write an email to the board. I can call my HR director and say, listen, you know, I need an accommodation. And if I'm a lawyer and someone calls me, I can evaluate whether I can take the case. And there's a lot of lawyers out there listening who are afraid for their job. And there's a lot of law firms out there. You don't have to work at that law firm. You don't have to work for a law firm that hates you, and you don't have to hire a law firm that hates you and your values. You know, there are alternatives, and I think we're seeing a lot of that more, too, is that we do not have to continue to collude in all of these lies. There are alternatives.

[Matt Fradd]

If people contact you and you can't take them on, presumably you have a network of people you might be able to point them to.

[Marcella Burke]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Awesome. Well, God bless you and thanks for being on the show.

[Marcella Burke]

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