← The Vault Unlocked
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- [00:00]
Host Introduction
Most people think AI is just another tool. It's not. It's quietly becoming the layer that decides what your customers see, trust and buy. And if you don't understand that, you're not competing anymore, you're being filtered out. In this episode, I sit down with Mark Schaefer to break down what's actually happening beneath the surface. How AI is rewiring human behavior, shifting decision making, enforcing a complete reset, or on how businesses grow. This isn't about tactics. This is about what happens when the customer stops thinking and starts delegating that to machines. Let's unlock it.
- [00:48]
Kayvon
Well, Mark, welcome to the show. I'm actually truly excited to jump into this because, I mean, this week alone, what I've learned about AI, human connection, where that's going, humans, the, the fact that, you know, a lot of humans will be being replaced, I think, with AI. And I know you wrote a book on that. I know you wrote, you, you're known as a marketing branding expert. I want to jump in all of that if we can, because I, I know myself, I'm excited to learn. So I'm going to give you the floor here. Tell us about the last book, the latest book you just wrote and the impact it's having right now on marketing and humans themselves.
- [01:27]
Mark Schaefer
You know, first of all, thanks so much for having me. I'm really, I feel a sense of urgency about getting these ideas out into the world. You know, that's why you write books. So I did something really crazy last year, so I wrote actually two books in one year. And that was not a plan, but I wrote this book called Audacious How Humans Win in an AI World. Because this is what I see the world is really struggling with now as we go increasingly toward AI. Where do we fit? What do we do? And so I had this like kind of two year project to interview some of the greatest marketers, greatest creatives in the world to see how they're breaking through the noise. Okay, great, great book. Everybody loves it, selling great. And then I was asked to participate in a research study. They gathered 300 futurists from around the world. Psychologists, philosophers, academics, scientists from Silicon Valley. And they said, we want you to answer this question. How will AI change humanity by 2035? So I was part of this report. When I saw this report, Kayvon, it was so stunning. And they came up with, they had consensus. Nobody really knows what's going to happen with AI, but these 300 futurists said, yeah, we see some places where it's going to go. I Thought, well, look, if it's changing humanity, it's changing our customers, and nobody's talking about this. AI is literally rewiring our customers, and we've got to get on top of that, right? So I went to the sponsors of the research. I said, this is such a great report. Can I turn this into a book? They said, not only, yes, we're jealous. We didn't have that idea. And so I just had to. That's how I spent my summer vacation last year. Because I just, I've got to get this out into the world and it's such a big idea.
- [03:37]
Kayvon
I mean, let's. Please, let's jump right into it. I think it's so important. So I. You said there was a consensus. What was that consensus? Like, how did all these different people from all walks of lives. And I love what you said. We don't know what the future is, but we, we've seen what the past is. We see where we're going. We can, you know, look into the mirror a little bit and, and then see out the window. I should say, what was the consensus? I really want to know that in 20, you know, in 2035. And then I would love to know, like, you know, everything else that came in that book.
- [04:08]
Mark Schaefer
Well, there were a couple of big buckets. I think they came up with about 10 ideas that were kind of big ideas. I picked about six of those because I thought those were most relevant to business and marketing. And I didn't want to turn it into a gigantic book. I mean, this is a small book. It's 150 pages. You can, you know, read it in two hours maybe. So some of the things I focused on, the first one would be cognitive offloading. So let me, let me give you an example of, of, of kind of how this is showing up. I was, I was talking to this young woman at a neighborhood party. She's a junior in college. She said, I use AI every hour of the day. I use AI for everything. Said, you know, I would like to have this Gen Z perspective of how you're using AI. I want to interview you for my book. So I called her on the phone the next week, and she said, something really weird is taking over me. When you told me you wanted to interview me for your book, my first reaction was, I have to get the answer from ChatGPT. I am using AI to represent me on every email, on every message, on every text. And it made me. When, when I, when my first reaction was, I can't answer you without chatgpt. It made me think, where am I? I am making myself dumber. So this is going to be really a powerful, powerful trend because we're trusting AI more, we're offloading more responsibility to AI. And what happened when we're seeing this in the universities, right? We're seeing this. Look, if you're trying to hire people, do you really know who you're getting out of a university right now? Are they learning anything or are they just using AI to get the quick answers? Humans tend to want the shortcut. They don't want to do the hard work. But, but here's what happens. I could have used AI to write my book. Lots of people are doing that. But if you, if I used AI to write the book, I would not be able to have the conversation I'm having with, with you today. Because when you do the hard work, this process called phronesis occurs. Phronesis means you're internalizing this work, you're gaining wisdom. And when I did the hard work, now I can consult about this topic, I can give a speech about this topic, I can have a knowledgeable conversation with a guy like you about this topic, right? So some of these experts, some of these futurists are saying AI is the equivalent of self imposed dementia.
- [07:28]
Kayvon
Self imposed dementia, Ooh. Oh, interesting.
- [07:33]
Mark Schaefer
And we're starting to see this now because people aren't able to think for themselves. So this was a big one. Now related to that is human agency, when AI can do everything for you and it can do everything better than you. And I mean, this is starting to bubble up in the public conversations now, right? If AI could do everything better than me, like then what's left for me? You know, I'm. Am I really in control anymore? What's my meaning? What's my purpose? How do you know? What do I do when I get up every morning? If AI's taken over all of this? I'll tell you, probably the most pressing moment of my professional career was I had just finished writing a book. I guess it was what, when the ChatGPT came out, I think it was November 2023. I had just finished writing this book, or maybe it's 2022, finished this manuscript. I had spent two years working on this book called Belonging to the Brand, about Belonging to the brand, about brand communities. The first time I ever tried ChatGPT, I said, okay, write an essay that would fit in this book in the voice of Mark Schaefer. I've got a lot of content out there, so was able to do that and in three seconds it wrote a perfect essay. Now you start to think, holy crap, like, what do I do? Part of my purpose is the struggle. Part of my purpose is working on a book for two years. That's so bold, so beautiful. It's going to help people in so many ways. And you're telling me AI can do that? That existential question is going to be creeping into many people's lives right now. You know, how does this impact human agency? How does this impact meaning and purpose? And look, start looking at this from a sales and marketing perspective. This is going to be changing our customers. This cognitive offloading, this agency, this. The need for meaning and purpose. Right. And we're starting to even see this creep into sales and marketing strategies. You know, we could talk a little bit more about that, you know, at the end. So another one I'll mention briefly is human relationships, where, you know, oh my gosh, there was a story in the Atlantic last, last month what it means to marry a bot. Right. And so we're creating more trusting human, more trusting relationships. There is this, I think it's something like 32% of Gen Z have a meaningful trusting relationship with an AI agent, with a non human entity. 8% would characterize it as a romantic relationship.
- [10:36]
Kayvon
Wow.
- [10:37]
Mark Schaefer
Human entity. So think that through.
- [10:41]
Kayvon
Yeah.
- [10:42]
Mark Schaefer
What, what happens when you're. Your most trusted friend is AI who are you going to ask for recommendations on the best shoes to buy? You know, your most trusted friend. And what happens when this trust increases in AI and AI never gets bored with you?
- [11:09]
Kayvon
Never.
- [11:11]
Mark Schaefer
It's like a constant, frictionless relationship. You know, AI never falls asleep in the middle of the night when you need somebody to talk to. And so this idea that we are trusting AI and look, here's the number one use for AI right now. This just came out in a research report like 2 weeks ago. It's not planning your trip, it's not searching for information. Here's the number one use for AI by far, therapy.
- [11:46]
Kayvon
I would not be surprised to hear that, to be honest.
- [11:51]
Mark Schaefer
Number one.
- [11:51]
Kayvon
So the question is this. So let me just ask. I know there's a lot here, but I've got so many pressing questions, and that's a good one. Say so we know the number one reason people are using is what I'm hearing from you. The number one reason people are using AI or the conversations they're having within AI are for therapy. Why is that necessarily a good or bad thing?
- [12:20]
Mark Schaefer
One of the things I state in my book is, so one of the best Pieces of advice I ever got was from a mentor of mine and he said, you know, there's really no such thing as a weakness. Just overdone strengths. So there's a, there's kind of a good and bad to everything. Right. If you are a reliable, self reliant person, that's good. But if you, you're afraid to ask anybody for help, that becomes a weakness. If you're confident, that's good. If you're overconfident, it becomes arrogance. It's the same with AI look, we know we live in a world where many, many people, especially young people, are lonely and isolated and depressed. It's hard to find a therapist. It's expensive to have a therapist.
- [13:15]
Kayvon
Yeah.
- [13:16]
Mark Schaefer
So AI absolutely can play a positive role. Now even the therapists say, you know what, AI does a pretty good job. I have to say. I'm, I have to say I'm impressed. Because what are therapists best at? Recognizing patterns and responding to those patterns with ideas to improve your life or alter those patterns in some way. AI is excellent at that. So there's definitely a positive role. Now what's the overdone strength? You know, what's the weakness? Well, it's when you can't separate AI from reality. If you depend on AI that you, you're not turning to humans. When you turn to humans, that can be, you know, that can be the weakness. And, and, and not recognizing when you need, you know, real human, real human connection.
- [14:18]
Kayvon
It's interesting because he, I, I'm not even afraid to say I use AI for therapy. Not only that, I'm using it in the therapy sessions.
- [14:29]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah, why not?
- [14:30]
Kayvon
Therapist. And the therapist is going, damn. But I play them, I actually play them against each other. Not, not, not to out my therapist.
- [14:43]
Mark Schaefer
How does your therapist respond to that?
- [14:45]
Kayvon
She, Two of them love it. They, they just kind of, at first they're kind of like, you can see there's this energy where it's like, oh, here we go. And then I go, okay, just give me a second here. Because what, so I'll say, what I'm hearing you say is this, is this correct? So I go, AI, hey, this is what I'm hearing. I'm not quite understanding this. Tell me more. And then it tells me. And then I go, so what you're saying is this. And they're like, I couldn't have said it best, you know? You know, and then I'm. And then, and then if it gets it wrong, I will. The therapist was like, well, it's a little Bit off. Oh, great. What's off about it? What am I doing? I'm actually training the bot to think better, to be it better because. And getting that expertise. Right. It's so interesting you say this because that, that is the fear I have, I personally have is, is some of that fear is like the. In especially people who, who I. I want to say this might be illness, let's say mental illness. Right. And. And they are already feeling isolated. You said they're already feeling alone. And the only relationship they're getting attached to is a relationship. Here's, here's the thing they can control. That's the challenge.
- [15:57]
Mark Schaefer
The real danger is it's an illusion of compassion. Right. Look, it's math. It's an algorithm.
- [16:08]
Kayvon
It's. Yeah.
- [16:10]
Mark Schaefer
Crap about you. Right? Yeah. But it gives the illusion of compassion. And as you said, it can learn to do a better job the more it talks to you. And up to a certain point that can really be helpful. I had the same experience. I was kind of struggling with a. You know, I'm sort of in this career transition where I'm trying to slow down a little bit, trying to get off the road a little bit. I turn to AI for some advice on some things and it gave me such a good answer that was like so thought provoking, so profound. I like, I ran and showed my wife. I said, listen, I just got this. I think it's right. So. And it all. So if you put all this stuff together, Kevon, it leads to this last sort of big bucket. And that is this. And I think this is when. What would be so vitally interesting to you and your audience is that AI has become the decision maker for us in many ways. I wrote in the book that in many ways, if you're in sales and marketing today, you are in the diaper business. What I mean by that. So the joy of my life right now, I have my first grandson. And he is a wonderful, bright, strong boy. And he is an expert pooper. He goes through a lot of diapers now. He is the end user. If you want to sell diapers to him, he's the end user. But he is not the decision maker. You have got to sell to mom and dad now. I. Last year I went on a trip to. Went on a trip to Europe. I said, you know what I mean? I want to hang out in Paris for five days, just to hang out, have a little fun. I went to ChatGPT. I said, I love art, I love music, I love history. Plan a five day trip for Me, tell me where to go, how to get there, what times to go. And also I have to eat gluten free every location. I mean a gluten free restaurant near that location. I followed that path exactly. I didn't see any ads, I didn't see any branded content. So AI made the decision. It didn't consult with anything. So AI is representing these locations, these museums and sending me there. AI is the decision maker. I'm just wearing the diapers.
- [18:53]
Kayvon
I, I hear that. Okay, so man, there's so many, so many places we can go here. So in that decision, I've done that before too. And you know what, I didn't like the responses and then, but I think, I think it's about understanding how AI works. So that information that you got from AI is all from people's blogs and blogs on the Internet. It's not necessarily the correct information, it's just what it feels is maybe the best information for you. So in that case, you also have to understand that about AI when it comes to that type of decision making. And I think there, there for humans who've lost all sense of that and they're just going 100% on their, that decision, I think that's a problem for sure. I would say that that's a problem.
- [19:36]
Mark Schaefer
I think you bring up a key point that first of all, we do have to have human discernment and especially when it's high risk. And the other point is, look, millions and millions of people go to Paris. They know the inside tricks, right? So I mean, one of the things on this itinerary even said, oh, when you go to the Louvre, don't go to this entrance, go to this entrance by the, by the metro station because there's no crowds. And it was. Right.
- [20:05]
Kayvon
Yeah.
- [20:06]
Mark Schaefer
So I mean, in this case it was low risk. Yeah, lots of data out there. Now let me add one more thing because this is very, very important. There were two parts of this itinerary that I did not follow AI and it was this, number one, I said, okay, create this itinerary, but I want to fly this airline, I want to stay in these hotels. Now, the brand is the override for AI that's why branding is more important than ever. Creating that, meaning creating that loyalty with your customers is more important than ever. So you don't have to depend on AI you don't have to depend on an algorithm. They're going to recommend you because they love you. They know you do good work. Right? That's point number one. The second place I Didn't follow. AI is I have a friend in my marketing brand community and she said, oh, I see you're going to Paris. I know you're gluten free. There is this bakery in Paris. You have got to try it is the best gluten free bakery in the world. Did I go there? You bet. In fact, it was so good I went there twice. So you're exactly right that when you get a recommendation from AI, you're going to consider it and you're going to human discernment and figure out if it's true. When you get a recommendation from a friend you trust, you're going to act word of mouth marketing, that is another override for AI. Creating a product, an idea, a service that's so cool, that's so conversational, that's so worthy and unmissable. People can't wait to talk about it. That bakery, they don't have the marketing firepower to end up on an AI recommendation. But it's so good, people talk about it and recommend it to their friends all the time. And that is unadulterated, pure, the best marketing, the best advertising you can ever get when a friend tells you to go there.
- [22:24]
Kayvon
So let's jump into that if that's okay, because I want to understand, because you brought up a good point. So branding and AI is more important than ever again, ever before. So what does that mean, branding and AI? How does a company be able to take that sentence and actually implement that into their business tomorrow?
- [22:44]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah, so there's a couple of, I mean this is emerging, right? Everybody's trying to figure out how do we get in, how do we get recommended on AI. So there's like a cottage industry emerging of people and businesses trying to figure this out. But the number one sort of conclusion that I can make right now is that the standard marketing and sales best practices still work, right? You're creating a good product at a good price, you're getting good reviews, you've got people talking about you, you've got people reviewing you online, maybe talking about you in a positive way on Reddit. So if you're taking care of your company, your marketing, your and, and, and your sales function, all those good things still work. Product still works, price still works, promotion still works. The four P's of marketing, you pay attention to that stuff. Creating great content, having, you know, an authoritative presence on the web, having good customer service, that is going to show up in the AI. All right, so don't. Everybody shouldn't be overwhelmed and freak out because what we've been doing all along is still going to work.
- [24:06]
Kayvon
Okay, There are a few.
- [24:08]
Mark Schaefer
There are a few things that are a little bit different, and I'll just name one because I think it's pretty significant. Whenever you're working on SEO, one of the big factors is backlinks, right? So if you've worked at SEO at all, as, and, and by the way, Google search, you know, a lot of people are moving toward AI, but Google search is still growing, right? So it's not like Google's going away. Google search is still growing, so don't dismiss Google with AI. AI recommendations. Pay no attention to backlinks. What AI really loves is data. So Google wants to see great content, helpful content, lots of backlinks. AI doesn't care. It's a robot, it's a machine. It just wants lots of information, lots of data, FAQs, and it wants to see you mentioned in other places. Not necessarily backlinks, but someone talking about you in a positive way on Reddit or someone featuring you in an article somewhere or showing up on a podcast, you know, like, like this. So, you know, you know, AI might say, oh my gosh, you know, look, Kayvon is doing such a good job on his podcast. He had Shaffer on his podcast. That's a vote for Schaefer. So that's sort of, I think in some ways one of the subtle differences is that backlinks made a big difference for SEO. For AI, this is the golden age of public relations, of pr, of showing up in media on people's blogs, reviews, testimonies, podcasts, video interviews. That's an important difference. But other than that, look, stick to your marketing, treat people well, build your brand. It's more important than ever. You know, I think a focus on word of mouth marketing is super important right now because that's one of the overrides of AI.
- [26:22]
Kayvon
So when it comes to the marketing, and it's interesting, SEO, because what goes through my head when you're saying that is, is, is how do you compete with the. I know how to do it, but how do you compete with the businesses that know how to use AI? Where the bot is literally working 247 building and posting SEO written specific H1, H2, all that stuff written properly. Blogs.
- [26:53]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah.
- [26:53]
Kayvon
At a speed that no human can ever keep up with. How does the small pop even keep up with that type of thing? That, that, that's the scary part about AI is, is the advancement and understanding, like what it is and then understanding how to use it and then the deeper one is really understanding how to build it so that it's working 24, 7.
- [27:17]
Mark Schaefer
I actually disagree with you in a way. I think this is the best opportunity for small businesses. Look, I work with some of the biggest companies and some of the biggest brands in the world. They are struggling. They are really, really struggling. So just, just think about this. Think, think about this. So look, basically I'm a one man show, basically. I mean, I've got, you know, 10, 99 employees kind of scattered around the world, but I don't have a. I'm not a big company, I'm not a big agency. I don't have resources creating AI content 24 hours a day. But this is what I do. I create content that matters. On every one of my blog posts, I have a badge that says 100% human content. So bring on the AI slop. You're just creating a pandemic of dull. But I'm going to give you something special. And you are too, right? You are looking at your guests. You are curating your content very carefully. People can count on you. They can turn to you. That's going to be rewarded by, by AI.
- [28:32]
Kayvon
Oh, by AI. Okay.
- [28:33]
Mark Schaefer
It's going to be rewarded by AI. It's going to be rewarded by humans, of course. But you know, why am I here with you? Why aren't you interviewing, you know, somebody from, you know, Procter and Gamble? You're interviewing me because I did the work, right? I wrote the books that got your interest. I've, I've, I've blogged every single week with maybe an ex. I took a little break around Covid three or four weeks, but basically I've blogged more than 1,000 weeks in a row. I had a podcast for 13 years. I never missed a single episode. I've written 12 books that are, they're all bestsellers. They're books that people love and they're helping. So I did the work. I have a personal brand that means something to people. And so I'm going to show up in all these places and eventually AI will notice I got a new customer cave on. And I said, well, how did you find me? And this person said, well, I went to ChatGPT and I said, who are the top 10 digital marketing authorities in the world?
- [29:44]
Kayvon
Nice.
- [29:45]
Mark Schaefer
And you were on the list. And then I went to your website and I said, oh, look at this. I like what he. I'm going to hire him now. Let me tell you a little secret. I am not one of the top 10 digital marketing authorities. In the world. I can name 10 of my friends who are smarter than me. I'm not joking. But I show up and again, I'm not a big company, you know, with millions of dollars. I don't have an advertising agency.
- [30:15]
Kayvon
But here, here's something you're not saying that. I think that you've said it indirectly, but it needs to be said because I can tell you I'm showing up on, on AI for certain things and I will tell you exactly where it's from. It wasn't from this year of writing blogs and trying to out, out, outwork the algorithm. It was actually from three years ago when we put a full on business plan in place for SEO knowing it was going to be a three year plan. And now that's coming to fruition. So if you're telling me you thousands of podcasts and you know, thousand weeks of SEO blog writing, then yeah, you will be showing up. Absolutely. And that makes sense.
- [31:03]
Mark Schaefer
It's no hockey stick, right? I mean there's no shortcut. No, do the work every week, every week, every week.
- [31:10]
Kayvon
That's the one thing I think a lot of. And I have no problem saying it because I speak to too many business owners not respecting and understanding the power of SEO number one, but not realizing it's not like paid ads. You don't win right away. Like you got to invest, invest, invest, invest time, money, energy. Invest time, money and energy. In a year, right, two years, it starts to come to fruition. But it doesn't happen overnight. And I think a lot of business owners, they want what's the ROI on it and you can't look at it. I don't believe you can look at like that on SEO unless you're writing out a five year plan than you can. So again, I just want to make sure everyone's even thinking about doing SEO. Understand that because it's not. There's no overnight success with SEO. And if someone's telling you that they're lying, you're being duped, don't listen. I want to go to something I think super important. Looking at the time, I want to make sure we touch this because I, I was excited to get into it. You said AI, you indirectly said who is the new decision maker? It is not even the human. So when you're writing like what I was thinking about, okay, when I write out my avatar, I think about my, the person who's in the seat, who's, who's, you know, going through the problem, they're going through the pains. What are they thinking, how are they operating? What's going through their head? Now you're saying that there's actually a deeper level here, is what are they typing in the AI? What is AI saying back to them? This is next level psychology. I want you to please tell me where, like what is going on with that?
- [32:43]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah, well, I think, and a lot of people, it's like, okay, once you think it through and you say, oh yeah, sales really is changing. I'm using AI to make decisions. I mean, I use AI to help me make decisions every single day. And I'm not talking to a salesperson, I'm not even going to a website. I've just said, okay, this is, this is the best. Here's a rating. I don't have to look at 10 websites. This is the answer. You know, maybe it's 80% correct. That's okay. You know, it's, it's saving me so much work. Ah, maybe it's not the perfect answer, but look, I'll just buy that it's good enough. So again, if it depends on the risk. So I, and one of the things we're seeing which is so interesting is look, if it's a low risk decision and I actually consider a trip to Paris kind of a low risk decision because I kind of know where I want to go, I know what I like. And it introduced me to some new places I didn't know before, but they're highly rated. Go for it, let's do it. But here's something that's so interesting. More and more people are turning to AI for high risk decisions. They're turning to AI. Where should I go to college? They're turning to AI. You know, what are the best companies to work for? Where is, where should I live? You know, I like this, I like this, I like this, I like this. Give me the best city to live. I'm trying to make big life decisions. Who should I marry? So it's it. So as the, the as AI gets better and better and better and gets more tuned into you, we are handing over even big ticket item decisions.
- [34:43]
Kayvon
Yeah. Agency over to. So I think what I was hearing you say is so it's more important than ever to make sure. And that's what you're saying, to brand yourself.
- [34:52]
Mark Schaefer
Yes.
- [34:53]
Kayvon
In a certain way. To do the content.
- [34:56]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah.
- [34:57]
Kayvon
To get yourself out there, to get yourself on the pr, on the blogs, all of that. Because more than ever now, people are not going to WW your, you know, your name dot com. They're going right to AI. And if AI is not picking this up, you're getting left in the dust is what I'm hearing.
- [35:15]
Mark Schaefer
I think we're sort of at a transition point because, you know, when I started in marketing, many, many years ago, most of it was brand marketing, and it was really hard to measure. Then when we got into the Internet age, you can measure almost everything. Right. You can measure your SEO, you can measure your Facebook ads, you can measure your Google Ads. And that's called performance marketing. And it's great. And you, you know, dollars in, dollars out.
- [35:42]
Kayvon
Yeah.
- [35:43]
Mark Schaefer
Brand marketing is a little harder to measure. Right. And I give the example. I don't know if you have international listeners. They may not know this tradition we have in America that when you. In America, if you win a big football game, the football. American football, the football players sneak up behind the coach at the end of the game, and they dump a bucket of Gatorade over their head. It seems silly, but the TV cameras always go there. Last year in the college football playoffs, one of the games was sponsored by Powerade, Gatorade's competitor. So here it is on tv. The players are sneaking up with the blue bucket, and here's what the TV announcer said. Here comes the Gatorade bath. Oh, Gatorade's brand is so powerful. And they have an 80% share of an $8 billion sports drink market. Their brand is so powerful, even when the thing said Powerade, they couldn't say those words. They said Gatorade. Now, what's the ROI of the Gatorade bath? Does that sell more Gatorade? Of course it does. Right? Of course it does. Can we measure it? No. But branding is more important than ever when you talk to athletes. You know, I've studied Gatorade and Powerade a lot. I wrote it up as a case study in one of my books. When you talk to athletes, they don't even consider Powerade. They're saying, no way I would. It's Gatorade. I always use Gatorade. It's the only thing I drink. So. And it's. And. And they charge 25% more at the store. So their branding is dominant. Their branding is working, but you can't say, what's. What's the ROI of sponsoring that football game? What's the ROI of putting our name over here? What's the ROI of connecting with these influencers that are dominant athletes? It's really, really hard to create attribution of a lot of these branding ideas to specific dollars. But you've got to do it, you have to do it. It's more important than ever in this world of AI because again, I don't know how you win at AI, but you can win at branding. You can win it. And so I couldn't agree more.
- [38:25]
Kayvon
I tell them people like brand is more important than ever now. The only brand, especially if we're going to live in this world with A.I. like you're saying, and people are going to lose their relationships with things and they're going to be more listening to AI Then when they actually get connected to the real world, they get connected into what is going on. I think that relationship for them to brand to something that they can connect to, feel good about, trust, no, like will be more important than ever before.
- [38:55]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah. There's a case study so that, there's a case study in my, in the new book, in the audacious book. Here's the fastest growing brand in beverage brand in America, Liquid Death. Liquid Death is this crazy product. You know, look, I, the only thing I can remember from my first college marketing class was never associate your brand with death, right? I mean these people, they're just, they're disrupting the whole thing. And here's what the founder of the company said. They created this, this water brand in cans, put a skull on it. Their mascot is Murder, man. You know, it's just, it's insane. He said, you know what? Coca Cola and Pepsi can copy everything we do. They can copy every flavor, they can copy every ingredient. If you say it gives you energy, they can copy that, they can copy your colors, they can copy our logo. The only thing they can't copy is our brand. The brand is everything. It's the only thing that means something, you know, to people. And their sales have quadrupled in the last two years.
- [40:15]
Kayvon
So how do people, I mean, we don't have the time now, but like it goes the question then, how do you create such a powerful brand? What it, what it, what, what makes a brand that goes that you think is going to be great and you put it out there and nobody likes it, versus a brand like you just said you'd never think would even, you know, find two days of business of is now the fastest growing drink company, you know, in North America. So how do you win the brand game? Like what are the keys to, to winning a brand in today's market?
- [40:48]
Mark Schaefer
Well, when I, when I work with companies, I mean I go through a couple different processes, but I think the one that really helps the most that I think would be actionable for your Listeners right away is, how do you finish this sentence, only I? Or if you're a company, only we? Now, sometimes I'll go to a company and the executives will be around the table. I'll say, get out a piece of paper, finish this sentence, only we. And chances are that there are five people in the room, they have five different answers, what that means. They don't have a marketing strategy. Because if you can finish that sentence, you know what makes you different. You know why customers love you, you know who your customers are and why they keep coming back to you, and why your competitors fear you. And if you can finish that sentence, you know what to say, you know where to say it, you know how to say it. So that's a big first step. Now, the other piece is you have to think about how are you relevant? So now you kind of say, all right, I can finish that sentence. I know what my special sauce is. And if. And by the way, if you can't answer that question, go ask your customers. They'll probably tell you how to finish that sentence. So once you have an idea of your special sauce, and now think about what's keeping people up at night. The customers that I serve, like, what are they struggling with? That's how I write books, right? I'm not the LinkedIn guy. I'm not the Facebook guy. I look at the world. I get to meet with companies all over the world, and I see them struggling with these things. I'll say, you know what? If I could figure that out, that would be a really helpful book. So think about what's keeping your customers up at night. Then think about, here's my special sauce. How do I solve that problem for them? How am I relevant in this world? Are people afraid of AI? Are they worried about the environment? Are they struggling with remote workers? Are they struggling with healthcare costs? We are in a world of. Of so many mega trends and so many crises, and every mega trend and every crisis is an opportunity that creates underserved and completely unserved customers. It's creating new needs and new worries. And you have to think about, all right, here I am. This is what we do. How do we uniquely solve this problem for these people? And that creates a brand.
- [43:45]
Kayvon
I mean, I hope people are writing this down because that's the answer right there. I know there's more nuance there, but that was the. That's a 30K.
- [43:54]
Mark Schaefer
Yeah.
- [43:55]
Kayvon
If you actually be able to answer all those questions, you'll get to your brand. As we come to an end, I want to ask this one last question here, going back to the study at the beginning, you know that you were asked to, you were part of a big study and you read the book. As you're going through, I think you said there's like 10 things that were like the common denominator or the consensus. As you're going through that whole study, what was the one thing you saw or read that stuck out, that stood out the most for you and that scared you?
- [44:28]
Mark Schaefer
It's, it's the one about relationships. You know, it's, it's, it's like I'm, I'm a father, I'm a grandfather, I'm a mentor to young people. And when you, when you, when you really look that this data, it's really happening that people are falling in love with non human entities. That really worries me. It just, it just, it's. There's so such deep societal issues attached with that. You know, everything else is kind of business. It might be sales, it might be how do we make people feel better about themselves because they're losing human agency. But when people start to abdicate human relationships because talking to an AI is frictionless and it'll always tell us what we want to hear and then you lose contact with the world and you lose contact with your friends, it's happening. It's really happening. That was hard for me to write. It really was hard for me to write.
- [45:36]
Kayvon
So I'm going to add this because I think it's important if people don't realize this is not only is that absolutely sad and devastating that that's happening, but on the other side, that, that side, I'm not going to say who, but that's people controlling that as well.
- [45:52]
Mark Schaefer
Yes.
- [45:54]
Kayvon
I didn't want to say it and I'm not. You're right. And I talk about that select few people controlling all of the. I know, I know now they're controlling how you think, how you walk, how you talk. I know where you spend your time and now where you are intimately. Yeah, that is the scaries.
- [46:13]
Mark Schaefer
I mean I address that. I take some. Makes a pretty bold statements in this book. And, and when you, when you go to a bot and you feel seen and heard and compassion, there's a business case behind that.
- [46:29]
Kayvon
Absolutely.
- [46:30]
Mark Schaefer
There's a business case behind that. Right. They want you to be there and they are going to be selling you things. Maybe it's a subscription, maybe it's whatever. But anytime you feel compassion from AI, there's a business case behind it. We can't, it's an illusion. We can't lose sight of that just
- [46:51]
Kayvon
as we end here. Where can people find you Mark?
- [46:54]
Mark Schaefer
Well, it's really, really easy. You don't have to remember how to my name or how to spell my name. Nobody can. But if you can remember businesses grow, you know businesses grow, that's my website. It's easy to remember. You can find my blog. We talked about a couple different books today. We talked about Audacious How Humans win in an AI marketing world. We talked about how AI changes your customers and I've written 12 books. There's even a thing on my site you can put in where you are in your career and find the right book for you. All my social media connections are on there so businesses grow.com awesome.
- [47:36]
Kayvon
Mark, I just want to say thanks so much for having for being here.
- [47:40]
Mark Schaefer
It's been a lot of fun.
- [47:41]
Kayvon
It.