Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer
Episode: Competing Visions on Trade: A Race to the Bottom Vs. Building the Middle Class (with Thea Lee, featuring Todd Tucker)
Date: October 28, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode breaks down how international trade policy shapes labor rights, middle class prosperity, and global economic fairness. Host Nick Hanauer and co-host Goldy invite economist and pro-worker trade advocate Thea Lee to discuss the evolution and challenges of embedding labor protections in trade agreements. Later, Todd Tucker from the Roosevelt Institute joins to explain the Biden administration's middle-out vision for trade and industrial policy.

Key topics include:

• How trade agreements have historically prioritized corporate interests over worker protections
• The battle for enforceable labor rights in international trade
• Successes and setbacks in pro-worker trade policy, with a focus on recent U.S. agreements
• The imbalance in global competition due to weak overseas labor or environmental standards
• The connection between worker dignity, middle-class strength, democracy, and migration
• Paradigm shifts under the Biden administration and recommendations for the future

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Reframing the Trade Debate: The Role of Workers

• Intro Insight

  • Main theme introduced (00:02–01:35): Recent decades of "trickle-down" economic and trade policy have led to rising inequality and instability. The alternative is "middle-out economics," where growth is driven by a robust middle class, not wealthy capital.
  • Quote:

    “The original sin of economics is that it starts with trade, when in fact what we need to start with are the things that we trade—the things we make. And of course, we don’t make those things without workers.” (B, 00:42)

• Workers Often Left Out of Trade Policy

  • Trade deals have consistently prioritized the protection of intellectual property and capital, while leaving workers’ rights as an afterthought.
  • Quote:

    “We talk a lot about protecting intellectual property. We talk a lot about protecting capital. We don't talk a lot about protecting workers.” (A, 01:39)

Thea Lee on Labor Rights in Trade: The Battle Since NAFTA

• Roots of the Issue (03:38–05:03):

  • Thea Lee explains how she entered the trade debate during NAFTA negotiations. Civil society fought to include labor standards as central to trade, recognizing the dangers of allowing companies to chase weak labor regimes.
  • Memorable moment:

    "When we're moving production around to take advantage of workers whose basic human rights are not respected... it becomes problematic for domestic business and domestic workers who find themselves in competition with workers…who might be beaten up or fired or thrown in jail or murdered for trying to organize a union or asking for a bathroom break or safety goggles." (C, 04:09)

• Establishing a Floor, Not a Ceiling (05:58–07:42):

  • The ILO’s core labor rights—freedom of association, collective bargaining, child and forced labor prohibitions, non-discrimination, and recently, safe workplaces—should be embedded and enforceable in all trade agreements.
  • Insight:

    “There is a floor, not necessarily a ceiling... the basic human rights that workers deserve, according to the ILO…should be connected to our trade agreements.” (C, 06:29)

• Corporate Protections vs. Labor Protections

  • Historically, trade agreements have been written for corporations to avoid “unfair competition,” not for worker welfare.
  • Quote:

    “For a long time, it was just sort of considered [that] trade agreements are for corporations that want to move jobs around... what is fair competition and what is unfair competition [was] narrowly defined.” (C, 07:46)

Global Supply Chains and Corporate Responsibility

• Disconnection Between Brands and Working Conditions (09:26–12:35):
  • Companies have shifted risk and responsibility down the supply chain, resisting transparency and accountability.
  • Quote:

    "We've created a global economy where corporations have divorced themselves from responsibility for working conditions throughout their supply chain." (C, 11:19)

  • Lee emphasizes the importance of reconnecting multinational brands to their supply chains, so taking responsibility for quality should extend to working conditions.

Trade’s Broader Impact: Not Just "Good or Bad" (13:26–15:46)

• Modernizing the Conversation
  • Trade is dynamic and brings benefits, but must be governed by values: labor rights, environmental protections, consumer safety.
  • Quote:

    "Trade is a reality... what we need is a set of rules for trade [that] are about centering our values whether they are worker rights, environmental protections, [or] consumer safety.” (C, 13:48)

  • Advocates for a harmonized multilateral trade regime instead of fragmented, country-by-country rules.

Strong Dollar Policy: Double-Edged Sword

• Effect on Producers and Workers (15:46–17:50):
  • A strong dollar helps consumers by making imports cheap, but undermines U.S. producers and workers.
  • Quote:

    “Having a strong dollar is not so good for domestic producers... multinational corporations were perfectly happy with a strong dollar because they just move stuff overseas.” (C, 16:12)

Success Story: The US-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA)

• Breakthrough Labor Chapter (17:58–20:23):

  • USMCA pioneered enforceable labor protections, supported reforms in Mexico, and included mechanisms like the Rapid Response Mechanism for swift dispute resolution.
  • Quote:

    “The strongest labor chapter of any trade agreement is in the US Mexico, Canada Agreement (USMCA)... workers... were able to choose a new union, kick out the protection union they’d had for decades, and negotiate a new collective bargaining contract.” (C, 18:02)

  • U.S. technical assistance funded substantial capacity-building for labor reform in Mexico.

• Setbacks under Current Administration (20:27–21:04):

  • Many of these programs have since been defunded or halted, threatening continued progress.

• Clarification on Trade Agreements:

  • Trade deals ensure rights (not set wages), enabling workers to bargain for better terms.

    “We talk about the core rights... if workers can actually organize a union... they should be able to bargain for their fair share.” (C, 21:26)

Global Hotspots for Labor Abuses (22:36–23:59)

• Worst Offenders:
  • North Korea, Burma, Xinjiang (China), especially regarding forced labor and oppression of groups like the Uyghurs.
  • Example: Recent New York Times coverage shows Uyghur forced labor entering global supply chains.
  • Quote:

    “Xinjiang is the Muslim area of China... the US Government has called it genocide... forced labor practices as a way of furthering that goal.” (C, 23:12)

Are Things Getting Better? Reasons for Cautious Hope (24:00–26:16)

• Progress and Bipartisan Potential
  • Growing consensus among U.S. policymakers—including some Republicans—and businesses that products made with forced labor should be banned.
  • Challenge:

    “It’s very hard for [companies] to be the one good guy... it’s our job in government to create a market that does not reward exploitation.” (C, 24:55)

  • Recent chaos in trade policy seen as a distraction, but possibility remains for renewed progress if coalitions and funding recover.

Todd Tucker: Institutionalizing Middle-Out Economics in Trade

(26:16–31:15)

• Biden’s Middle-Out Economics and Trade Policy

  • Tucker summarizes a Roosevelt Institute report on the Biden administration’s rethink of trade policy: public investment, worker empowerment, and pro-competition priorities drive trade deals, not vice versa.
  • Quote:

    “Biden comes into office and tries to go in a different direction... we have a different theory of economic growth and we want trade policy to be servicing that theory.” (D, 26:25)

• Industrial Policy and Strategic Sectors

  • Biden’s approach to tariffs and subsidies focused on specific, strategic products (e.g., clean energy, semiconductors), rather than blanket protectionism.
  • Advocates for industrial strategy where government prioritizes what matters for economic resilience, security, and innovation:

    “Instead of the neoliberal model... we’re instead saying, no, it’s actually really important that every economy produces clean energy products.” (D, 28:19)

• Cross-Party Alignment?

  • Middle-out trade policy should be bipartisan; some Republican support for the Chips Act and infrastructure, but tax cuts for the rich remain GOP priority.
  • Quote:

    “No, in theory this should be a bipartisan project... it should just be kind of a red, white and blue issue.” (D, 31:15)

Vision for the Future: If Thea Lee Were In Charge

(31:37–34:02)

• Multilateral Approach and Domestic Investment
  • Thea Lee advocates for a harmonized, multilateral system with trade agreements embedding labor standards, supported by investments in infrastructure, technology, training, social safety nets, and apprenticeships.
  • Quote:

    “If we center workers rights, there’s a synergy... you strengthen democracy, you strengthen the middle class, you strengthen buying power.” (C, 33:30)
    “If we have a more reciprocal trade relationship... that's a much healthier kind of global economy, and that's attainable. But we need to work together.” (C, 33:42)

Motivations and Reflections

(34:02–35:06)

• Why Thea Lee Does This Work
  • Personal family history of migration, combined with belief in America’s capacity for both welcoming and creating fair, vibrant economic connections through trade.
  • Quote:

    “What’s great about the United States of America... is that we do welcome people from all over the world, but also that the trading system can be a source of energy and dynamism and international connection if we do it right and if we get the rules right.” (C, 34:36)

Big Picture Takeaways: Middle Class, Democracy, and Migration

(35:14–39:45)

• The Virtuous Cycle of Worker Rights

  • Developing nations cannot build robust middle classes or democracies without strong worker protections; this, in turn, benefits U.S. workers and creates fairer competition and larger export markets.
  • Quotes:

    “Developing countries cannot build a strong and robust middle class unless these workers have rights and are well paid... and they cannot build a strong and robust democracy unless they have a strong and robust middle class.” (B, 35:14) "You don’t see Canadians flooding across the border... to work in our meat packing plants." (B, 37:30)
    "Imagine if Mexico was as developed economically and politically as Canada." (A, 38:20)

• Fair Trade as Migration Policy

  • Better labor conditions abroad reduce the desperation that leads to mass migration; a strategic, values-driven approach produces stability, not just economic gain.

Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• “The original sin of economics is that it starts with trade, when in fact what we need to start with are the things that we trade—the things we make.” (B, 00:42)
• “If workers can actually organize a union without being fired or beaten up... they should be able to bargain for their fair share of the wealth they create.” (C, 21:26)
• “The vision of the kind of global economy we live in is not one that we have now, which is kind of like, you build, we buy. Yeah, that’s not sustainable.” (C, 33:38)
• “You don’t see Canadians flooding across the border... to work in our meat packing plants... Imagine if Mexico was as developed economically and politically as Canada.” (B/A, 37:30–38:20)

Conclusion

The episode provides a rich exploration of how embedding labor rights in trade policy creates a foundation for global middle-class prosperity, fairer competition, and stronger democracies. While recent years have yielded encouraging progress—especially with the USMCA—current political volatility and funding cuts threaten to unravel gains. Both guests stress the need for multilateralism and society-centered economic rules to avoid a global "race to the bottom." The ultimate vision is a system that protects workers everywhere, builds global middle classes, and delivers shared growth.

[End of Summary]