Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer
Episode: The Measure of Progress: Counting What Really Matters
Guest: Diane Coyle, Bennett Professor of Public Policy, University of Cambridge
Release Date: November 18, 2025

Overview: Rethinking Economic Progress

This episode explores the inadequacies of GDP as a measure of economic success and considers alternative, more meaningful ways to gauge real progress. Host Nick Hanauer and Goldie are joined by economist Diane Coyle, whose new book, The Measure of Progress: Counting What Really Matters, interrogates what we measure, why it matters, and how shifting our focus could foster a better, fairer economy. Together, they debate what should count as “progress,” the pitfalls of current metrics, and suggest forward-thinking frameworks—emphasizing well-being, time use, and economic sustainability.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Problem with GDP

• GDP's Legacy and Limitations
  • GDP fails to capture unpaid work, externalities, and well-being.
  • Many essential activities—like caregiving, open-source contributions, even this podcast—aren’t reflected in GDP (01:39-03:15).
  • Quote:

    “GDP is such a terrible characterization of what's happening in the economy for so many reasons.” – Nick Hanauer (01:24)

• GDP’s Distorted Incentives
  • Negative or harmful activities (e.g., selling cigarettes, treating resultant cancer) add to GDP just as much as productive, positive ones (01:55-02:55).
  • Simon Kuznets, GDP’s originator, warned from the start that it was incomplete.

The Changing Economy & Measurement Gaps

• 21st Century Economy Complexity
  • Global production chains and digital economies make GDP blunt and inaccurate, failing to reflect value creation or international trade dynamics (04:43-07:29).
  • Example: The US looks like it has a larger trade deficit with China than is accurate, because GDP statistics miss much intellectual property value.
• Intangible Value Creation
  • Free online services, gig work, and at-home production escape traditional measurements.
  • Value creation outside “the production boundary” (e.g., open-source software, YouTube videos) isn’t captured (08:01-10:04).

The Politics and Values Embedded in Economic Metrics

• Statistics Reflect Priorities
  • The focus on monetary value systematically undervalues care work, digital creativity, and unpaid labor (08:01-10:04).
  • Some countries, like France, refuse to collect statistics by ethnicity—showing moral values shape data gathering.
• Quote:

  “GDP counts up all the money in the economy... but that means that we're not valuing things that don't cost money.” – Diane Coyle (08:01)

Possible Alternatives to GDP

• Dashboards and Well-being Indexes
  • Multiple indicators or “dashboards” are used but lack policy traction and are deemed arbitrary.
  • Well-being measures (e.g., life satisfaction scales) don’t provide actionable insights for policy (12:05-14:34).
  • Coyle critiques focusing on symptoms (like happiness) over root causes (e.g., poor housing, low pay).
• GDP as Construct, Not Fact
  • All metrics are social constructs—change what we measure and we change the stories we tell about the economy (14:34-15:34).
  • Quote:

    “…GDP isn't even a thing. None of these metrics exist objectively. Those are constructs that we've created to help us understand the economy.” – Goldie (14:34)

Hidden Labor: The Double Economy

• The Invisible Value of Care Work
  • If unpaid care work (mainly performed by women) were counted, estimates suggest it would roughly double GDP (16:46-18:31).
  • Quote:

    “You get a number that's about the same size as GDP.” – Diane Coyle, on valuing unpaid work (17:35)

• Historical Artifacts in Measurement
  • The 20th-century migration of women to paid work artificially inflated GDP growth and productivity statistics, as measured output shifted from unpaid to paid (18:31-18:54).

New Proposals: A Broader Balance Sheet

• Tracking Economic Sustainability
  • Diane Coyle advocates for an “economic balance sheet,” accounting for natural resources, human capital, health, social capital, and organizational capital as national assets (19:22-21:40).
  • The aim: Ensure future generations have at least as good a standard of living by not depleting these crucial assets.
• Organizational Capital
  • How logistics, know-how, and organizational culture are key assets often overlooked in simple output measurements.

Time Use as a Measure of Progress

• Measuring Life by Time, Not Money
  • Coyle proposes tracking how people spend their time as a fairer, more democratic measure:
    • More time spent on enjoyable or meaningful activities, less on unpleasant or “useless” work, signals progress (22:48-27:09).
    • Example: Americans work far more hours than Europeans; when adjusted for time, the US-EU GDP per capita gap shrinks.
  • Quote:

    “A very democratic measure would be, we've all got 24 hours in a day...how much do you enjoy those things? Have you got more time to do the things that you enjoy?” – Diane Coyle (10:34)

• Quality and Productivity
  • Productivity isn’t always about working faster; sometimes, it’s about high-quality, time-intensive work (e.g., teaching, intensive care) (24:48-25:38).
  • The use of AI could eliminate “useless meetings” or unpleasant work, maximizing time for fulfilling tasks.

Enjoyment, Meaning & Subjectivity

• Work Satisfaction as Progress
  • Enjoyment and fulfillment in one’s work add measurable value to life, even if not reflected in one’s income (27:57-29:44).
  • People increasingly seek meaningful, enjoyable work, revealing progress not captured in GDP.
  • Quote:

    "I would rather have been paid $20,000 a year doing meaningful work than $120,000 a year doing bullshit." – Goldie (34:21)

• Subjectivity in Valuing Work
  • The same job can bring satisfaction to one worker and misery to another; measurement systems must recognize subjective differences (33:14-34:38).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On GDP’s Blind Spots:

  “Wages could be stagnant for 90% of people. Inequality soaring, planet burning, democracy collapsing—GDP is growing. It's all good.”
  — Nick Hanauer (03:15)

• On Unpaid Labor:

  “You get a number that's about the same size as GDP.”
  — Diane Coyle (17:35)

• On Metrics as Social Constructs:

  “If we choose a different construct, something other than GDP, it changes the story that we tell about the economy and how we understand it and our place within it.”
  — Goldie (14:34)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:24] – Problems with GDP as a measure of progress
• [04:43] – Diane Coyle introduces two central problems with GDP
• [06:16] – How global value chains confound trade measurement
• [08:01] – What GDP values (and what it doesn’t)
• [12:05] – Common alternatives: dashboards, happiness indexes
• [14:34] – The construct nature of economic metrics
• [16:46 & 17:35] – The true scale of unpaid care work
• [19:22] – Coyle’s proposal: a national economic balance sheet
• [22:48 & 24:48] – Time-use surveys; productivity as enjoyment and quality
• [27:02] – Idea of measuring enjoyable vs. unenjoyable time
• [33:14 & 34:21] – Subjectivity in work value; personal choice & meaning

Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and geekily passionate about rethinking economic orthodoxy. The hosts use humor and personal anecdotes to highlight how metrics shape the worldviews of policymakers and citizens alike. Diane Coyle is rigorous but accessible, demystifying statistical debates with concrete examples and practical suggestions.

Takeaway

Measuring economic progress solely by GDP distorts our priorities and leaves out what really matters to people: time, well-being, meaning, and sustainability. By expanding our statistics to include unpaid labor, natural and social capital, and—above all—how people value and spend their time, we can redefine what it means to have a thriving economy and a successful society.