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Podcasting Momentum - The Marketing Flywheel for your Businesss
20+ Years of Podcasting: Lessons from Hall of Famer Dave Jackson
00:49:02
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- [00:00]
A
If you're involved in the podcasting industry at all, on the production side, on the software side, any of those areas, or maybe you've thought about starting a podcast. You have probably heard of Dave Jackson. Dave Jackson is one of the OGs of podcasting. He won't admit it. We talk about it during the show. He started way back in 2004 and has learned a lot along the way. I get the chance to talk with Dave this week, and I also learned a lot. It wasn't 20 years worth, but it was close. You are going to want to stay tuned. You started. You heard podcasting is the new thing.
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B
I've heard of that, yes. A while ago. Yes.
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A
And when I watched this, when I saw you talk about this, you searched and came up with one and a half pages of podcast, like, things on podcast. This is in Google, in what, 2004? Ish.
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B
2005. Yeah.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I remember, I said, how do you spell it? My friend's like, it's. It's pod casting. Like, okay. And I'm like, dude, I think we broke the Internet. There was just nothing on it.
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A
I believe it's changed since then, just a little. And to me, what's kind of cool about it is that makes you. I know you've. You've been. You've heard the title of OG Podcaster.
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B
I've heard that, yeah.
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A
Once or twice.
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B
Well, it's weird because I don't consider myself og, because I'll. If. If I say that, then Evo Terra and Rob Walter walk up, and they Both started in 2004. And then I go, okay, that's OG. So I am. I'm OG tangent.
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A
OG tan. I like that. Okay. OG tangent. OG OG adjacent.
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B
Yes.
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A
Tangent's easier to say than adjacent. So, yeah, we'll go with that. You've said you've wanted to bring everyone inside with podcasting. You started. I mean, you've taught, you've got a technical background. I mean, how did you bridge the gap from being the technical, like the technical guide? You've got a musical background, You've got all these backgrounds that really play well into that. How have you taken over the years and taken all this complex technology? And I know you've got the school of podcast and you're with PodPage. You're able to talk on a human level to this. How have you been able to take. And, like, how did that start? How did you get that knowledge to start to be able to convey that?
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B
Well, I think it starts if we go back to, like, A lifetime ago, I was a copier technician, and not a very good one because I have horrible, like, don't ask me for directions because I will get lost. And this is before gps and I'm trying to go to different offices and fix stuff. And so luckily the. The manager said, hey, we. He made a position for me. He's like. Because I would talk to him and he was like the manager, and he was this big guy, just really intimidating. But if you got to know him, he was a really great guy. And so he must have thought, well, this guy's not afraid of anything because nobody else will talk to me. So he made this position where I would go out, I would set up the copier, and then I would train people on how to run it. And that was my first foray into training, but it came because of my technical background. So I've always been kind of nerdy, but yet I could go out. And it was funny because I was there to tell people how to run the copier, but secretly I was there to tell them how to not run the copier. Don't put paper clips here and this and that. And then all we did is. And he said, we have a problem where we have customers that love our equipment. He goes, but they're breaking it. And we have this great service staff. But. And he said, so we need you to go out and make sure the customer doesn't break the machine. So I would just go out and when we're done, I'm like, who does the most copiers copies here? And they'd go like, oh, it's Steve or Janet or whatever. I'm like, okay, Steve and Janet, you guys stick around. And I would show them how to clear a jam. And I was in. And at the end, I would dub the. I'd go, oh. And I'm like, you are the key operator. And that's where I learned customer service. Cause I would say, hey, you know, and I. They got a little sticker on the inside of the. The copier. And that's where we're in their customer service. A. The bar is set so very low.
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A
Yes.
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B
And I would say to people, like, so when's a good time to call you? Like in a couple weeks or so. And they'd be like, yeah, like three weeks. I'm like, great. In the morning. Afternoon. They're like, afternoon, like, two. Two is great. Great. I would call them in three weeks on Wednesday at 2:00', clock, and they would freak out. And I'm like, well, I'm Just doing what I said I was gonna do. And I was like, this is what great customer service looks like. So that got me in the line of training. And from there, they're like, hey, that worked. We had a lot less kind of customers shooting themselves in the foot. And they said, do you know anything about computers? And I'm like, well, I used a word processor in college, and that led to me teaching Microsoft Office for about a decade. And, you know, and then it was like, oh, this guy's really good. They had. It was a company that had four different divisions. And by the time I had been there 10 years, I'd worked in every division. And at one point, I was training people like the Chicago Tribune on how to run these. They called them copy dot scanners. They were about the size of this table. Yeah, they were huge.
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A
I remember those.
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B
And it was just so over the years. And then the bad news is I won employee of the year. And then the next year, they let me go because they moved me into a project, and then the project got shut down. And they were kind of like, what are we gonna do with Dave? And it was like, oh, it's like a bad game of musical chairs. And so I went to get a teaching degree, and they said, you don't have a teacher. Or I went to get a job, and they go, you don't have a teaching degree. So I went back to school at the ripe old age of 42, where you'd walk in and people go, are you the teacher? And I'm like, no. No, I'm not. So along the way, I've always been kind of nerdy, but not super nerdy. Like, I don't. I don't like to write code. I like to use the software that the code does. And then I've had a creative kind of gene in me to where I think it's just add, where I just think outside the box, to where. When I worked at that one company, the CEO would pull me into marketing meetings, and I would have no idea what they're talking about. Just because I would. I was kind of the outstander that would kind of look at things and go, well, why don't you guys just do this? And it'd be this brilliant idea because I had no idea what I was talking about. Well, wait a minute. What's the customer want here? And they're like, oh, yeah, we forgot to ask that. So I've always. It's funny, no matter what company I've worked in, I end up in marketing.
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A
Well, I guess I would say that stands to reason. Yeah, there's that mindset of like, how can I convey information? And the other thing is too, is you are the self proclaimed and rightfully so, the analogy king.
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B
Yes.
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A
I love analogies too. I mean, if you can relate things that way. Did you have the school of podcasting? I was going to have you start out the episode by saying, take it away, ladies, but we refrained from that. The analogies and stuff like that, do those help you through that? And then the other thing is too, how did the school of podcasting come about? I mean, that's not something where you're just going to be like, ah, I got to teach people about this.
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B
So I lose my job and I go to get a teaching degree or teaching job. Nope, got to go back to school. And I'm like, okay, well, I got. My original degree was in electronic engineering. I was a waiter, actually, I was a car hopper.
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A
So wait a minute, so you're get it, You've got your EE degree.
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B
Yeah, while.
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A
While as a car hop.
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B
Right.
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A
I'm seeing some.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So the EE degree, I guess I would say, makes some sense. Yeah, there's a lot of, like, because you have certain quirks that have made you successful.
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B
Right.
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A
I don't know too many people that are electrical engineering degrees that aren't at least a little bit quirky.
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B
Yeah, well, that I've always been. I just call it weird. Quirky, Nicer. So I needed something and I was like, okay. You know, my friend comes back. We figured out that, okay, podcasting is a thing. I pieces parted one together and heard the voice of one Adam Curry come sparking out of the speakers. And I was like, hey, I know that guy. And I literally had to almost hand roll an RSS feed. And I just remember uploading an MP3 file and starting the software. And all of a sudden, because I was on who knows what kind of Internet, but it took a while, but it downloaded it. And I was like, oh, wait a minute, I see what this does. This is this, oh, wait a minute, this could be global. And all of a sudden all the light bulbs came off and I was like, wait a minute, you got to be kind of a geek back in 2005 to start a podcast.
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A
Yes.
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B
For me, I was like, oh, and we could learn so much from each other because I'm a teacher. Whereas if you give a salesperson a podcast, they're like, oh, we could sell so much. And if you give a cause, oh, we can. So there's that. And then you could do whatever you wanted. Like, you could do, like. The beautiful thing about the early days of podcasting is everybody was doing a radio show that you could never get on the radio. And so it was just every. Everything was weird and wild and crazy. There was a guy, Madge Weinstein, did yeast radio and cussed like a sailor, like, holy cow. And Madge showed up at an event, and that's when I learned Madge is a dude, and that's a character. And nobody knew it, but it was just this whole. And I was like, wow, how creative is that? Wow. So that's one of the things I love about it. I always say your podcast is a recipe, not a statue. And I like to throw my audience a curveball just to have that element of Howard Stern of kind of like, I wonder what Dave's gonna do next? And it's got me in trouble sometimes with people like, you know. But on the other hand, I'm like, ah, you know what? If you don't like me, like me, that's the way it is. So, yeah, that's where the technology. And that's kind of where it started. But when I started, I did exactly what I advise people not to do, which start a podcast and try to make money really quickly because I needed to buy books and cell phone and insurance and all this other stuff. And after it took me five minutes to explain what a podcast was, I go, do you want to start one? And then you go, yeah. No. So I was like, so that's why I was doing guitar lessons. I was building websites for people. I was doing anything I could just to keep my head above water. But eventually, you know, it started to take off. I also, you know, you have, again, no business skills here. So I'm like, well, I'm going to charge five bucks, and if I could get 100 people to give me five bucks, that's 500 bucks that'll keep me. And, you know, okay, this is great, except I didn't realize it until. You always need a good friend to tell you when you're making a mistake.
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A
A terrible, terrible movie.
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B
And he called up, he said, hey, Dave. I'm like, what's up? He's like, hey, I got a question for you. I'm like, what? He goes, can you name anything on the Internet that has value for five bucks? And I go, for five bucks? And I go, I don't know, maybe a cheap toy from China or something. He goes, you're not getting the point, are you? And I go, oh, he goes, yes. He goes, you have a perception problem. And so it was weird. I slowly started increasing the price and. And I went from five to, I think, 10, and 10 lasted for like, two weeks. Then I went up to 20, and all of a sudden people started showing up, like, almost instantly. And I was like, wow, that seems so backwards. But what was weird is my business plan was you would sign up, you would start a podcast, and then people would go, hey, how'd you learn how to podcast? And you'd go, oh, my buddy Dave. And then use your affiliate link so you can earn money. And instead, people went, how did you learn a podcast? They said, oh, I learned from Dave, but I can teach you. Right? And I went, oh, that's. So I then raised it. And the other thing was, at 20, people were joining, but they weren't doing anything.
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A
Sure.
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B
They were just giving me. And I'm weird. Like, if you give me money, I kind of want, like, you know, we all love money for nothing and chicks for free. But I was like, it seems a little weird. So it wasn't until I raised it to 50 that people actually started making podcasts. And I was like, that's such a weird, you know, because I've heard that, you know, if you price it too low, people are going to say, well, this can't be any good. It's only X amount of money. So that was one business lesson that I learned the hard way.
- [12:46]
A
It's interesting. So you talked about, like, that, especially at first, because you and seven other people on the planet were aware of what even a podcast was. What kept you doing that through those times when you're like, oh, both people are listening.
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B
Yeah. The thing that freaked me out, because at the time, in 2004, it was a banger year. I filed for bankruptcy and divorce. It was buy one, get one free. And so I did that, and my brother said, look, come live in my basement. He's like, you got to get back on you. And I'm like, no, no, I'm going to get an apartment. And being a good brother that he was, he's like, I got a room in my basement. It's free. You can help with the kids, take them to school, like, whatever. So great. So I do that. And I don't know, I've been doing. I did a podcast originally for musicians, and I see I have an email with an attachment, and I'm like, okay. So of course I download it and scan it for viruses, and I open it up and it's this dude named Michael Van Laar from Nuremberg, Germany. Now I'm in Mogador, Ohio, out there with all the cows, and I got a dude in Nuremberg, Germany. And I just. I hit play. Hello, Dave, this is Michael Van Naer from Nuremberg. And my brother goes, did he say Nuremberg, Germany? And I go, yeah. And he goes, wait, somebody on the other side of the planet is listening to your thing? And I go, I guess so. Yeah. And that's when I really went, okay. I grabbed. I grabbed the podcasting poll, and I'm like, I claim podcasting in the name of Dave because it had. It was technical, it was creative, and I could do whatever I want. And that's when I went. And I think to why? How did I keep going? I've always seen the potential, okay? It's. It's like, you know, it can be, you know, if you go to any main street in any city, right, You've got the library and you've got the groceries. You got all the good stuff. And on the other side, you got the porn store and the whatever else, you know, so the shady part, yeah, I've always seen podcasting. It's like, it could be used for good. It could also be used for, you know, slimy people that Three Easy Payments, you know, that guy. But I've always thought. I really thought. I'm like, wow, I'm going to learn about African culture that I've never known. I can get it from Boots on the Ground, and I can learn this and I can learn that. And, you know, and I have a lot of the stuff I listen to is all, there's no fiction in Dave's podcast. It's all, you know, stuff that I'm listening to. So that's probably it. And then as I started to help people, and they would be like, oh, I just. I just went to this thing. Kim Newlove does a thing about Perrysburg, Ohio, and she's starting to get recognized, and it's kind of freaking her out where she's like, this is kind of cool. Like, I walked in and somebody said, hey, I listened to your podcast. And then they give me these things. I call because of my podcast story. And as much as I'm like, way to go. They're like, no, no, you don't get it. Your thumbprint is in there. Like, I wouldn't have done that. So that as a teacher, there's nothing better than having a willing students and then students that start to see their own success. So that's what keeps gas in my tank.
- [15:48]
A
Love that. It's funny, I still remember. I always tell the story. When I was at the truck dealership doing those videos, I had someone walk into my office. Driver, obviously, me being a little bit germaphobe. This guy walks in, probably four days worth of potato chip grease on his shirt. He sits down, hey, Josh, how's it going? And I'm like, who the hell are you, new Me? Because he had listened to the. Listen. Listened to all the times that I had talked about trucks. You talked about the monetization piece since, like, supporting yourself in the basement.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Your book, Profit from. Profit from your podcast. You talk about. You don't monetize a podcast, you monetize an audience.
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B
Yeah.
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A
With us dealing, like, we work with businesses looking for podcast lead generation. How do you feel like they monetize that? Like, what is your direction for that?
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B
Yeah. For businesses, there's a couple different things. My favorite, and I do not know why they. They quit, but Evernote, the. The note taking app, at one point had a podcast and the CEO was there, the head of marketing, and I think the head of it, and you could ask them anything. And what was great is you would have people send in like a voicemail or whatever explaining how they used Evernote. And I'm like, wow, that is so subtly a commercial without being a. We'll be right back after this. It was just customer testimonials, like, oh, I really love this. Last week I did this and that. And then in some cases, they would ask a question for the CEO, and I'm like, where else can you go to a company and go, yeah, you have a couple seconds. I want to ask a question of the CEO. So I thought it was great way to get instant feedback and ideas on. Oh, we've never thought of using it that way. So getting feedback from your audience is cool. The other thing is, especially if you're doing a show maybe about your business or your industry, it's a networking gold mine.
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A
Sure.
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B
Because there are people that you've always wanted to talk to, but you can't because, you know, it's so and so. And then you go, hey, like, if you called them and said, hey, could we go out to coffee sometime? Let me pick your brain. They'd be like, get out of here, kid. You bother me. You know? But if you say, hey, will you come on my podcast? They're all about it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So for me, it's. That's a great one. Real estate people. I had a guy that was doing a show, and I go, well, a You could be like the king of your little city. I go do a show about your city. And then the advertiser is, you guessed it, you. And I said, you can also. He did one that was something about buying your first house or something like that. And so he said he took all the questions that just made him roll his eyes, you know, like, how do I get my house appraised? And like, for me, it'd be like, what's the best microphone under a hundred bucks? You know, I've heard it.
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A
We're going to talk here.
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B
We've heard it all the time. And he said what he would do is he would. I said, take all those things, all those questions that make you roll your eyes. I go, those are episodes because you want. They're looking for that content. And he said, so when somebody would say, you know, how do I get my house appraised? He'd be like, oh. He said, I would still answer the question, but I would send them to, oh, that's episode two of my podcast. Where they'd go, what's a podcast? And he goes, so while they're over there, they're listening to the other episodes of all the other stuff that he doesn't really have time to answer. And he said, then when they came
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A
back, nor want to.
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B
Yeah. And he said when they came back, they actually were ready for him. Like, oh, this is where I need to step in. I don't need to hold your hand through steps one through five, but you're ready for step six. And he said it wasn't the end of cold calling. He goes, but it definitely made him more efficient in what he was doing. So that's another great business use. Love that.
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A
I love that. With that, you also. So you've got school podcasting and you are. It is the head of podcasting at PodPage, correct?
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B
Yep.
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A
I'm assuming since being the head of podcasting at PodPage, that probably has influenced your view of the website for the podcast, because we know a lot that just have, like, hey, it's on Spotify or it's on Apple. That's. That's plenty. The ROI of something like PodPage and having that place to go to. Because I know a lot of people just think that, hey, I only listen to it on Spotify. So that's where I'm going to go to. That's. Why would I post it anywhere else? What is that? Our return on investment with something like PodPage. And, like, why should someone be looking at that? Because it's something that we talk with people about occasionally too.
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B
Yeah, it's where you want to go to kind of the next level because a basic website that comes with, you know, Buzzsprout, captivate whoever you're using for a media host. It's going to make it easy to listen and maybe easy to follow. Great. Okay. But I, I want to make money with my podcast. Well, as they say, the money's in the list. So now you've got to get an email list. So are you going to say, well, just go to kit.com tryandspellthis now, remember. No, but if you say go to my website newsletter. Okay, there it is. And now you've got your lead magnet and all that fun filled stuff. So there's that a lot of people don't realize. I will have a single tear come out of my eye when I hear somebody say, oh, just find me where you find your podcast. I'm like, I literally, if I'm in the car, I'll be like, no, do
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A
you try and drive off the road?
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B
I'm just like, I have two videos, both of them happen to be in Spotify where I've typed the exact name of the show and nothing like here's Marc Maron and all sorts of unrelated stuff. And then you type in the host name, assuming that they've used their name for the author and it pops right up and I'm like, so the whole fight, like, why is your show lost? You go find the link and put it on your website. Then you can say, oh, go to my website.com follow and then here's Apple and Spotify and you know, if you want to look cool, I heart and Amazon and whoever else you want to put there, put that in the. And now the, the audience is in control because a lot of people don't realize and you get outside the US out of Apple land and like 70% of Europe is on an Android and for many years people used to just send them an Apple link. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's going to do nothing now. Thankfully, Apple finally made it to where there's kind of a web based version. Sure. But they're still not going to follow you in that. They're on their Android phone. So there's all sorts of different things. And then SEO, when people go, well, I need to, you know, I've had people that have found me through my website. And the other one is people go, well, you know, they all get giddy about YouTube. You know why? Because it's the number two search engine. I'm like, great, what's the number one search engine? And they go, well, duh, Google. And I go, what's it looking at? And they go, websites. And I go, so unless you don't want to be found, you know, don't have a website. And then they'll go, oh, I found something. And I'll go over and it's a link tree. And I go, do you realize that has zero, like, almost negative correct SEO? And I'm like. And then they go, well, okay. And like, yeah, you might want to think about writing a blog every now and then. And like, well, that takes time. And I go, huh,
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A
what else you got? It sure does.
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B
It sure does. You know, so, yeah, so websites are important. I love that.
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A
Yep, sure does. We get the same look when we tell some people, like, hey, you should look at this or work with this. And they're like, oh. They're like, well, how do we do that? We're like, oh, well, you can do it or you can pay us to do it. Either one. We're fine with both. You're going to spend the time on it. You're going to spend the money on it.
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B
That's it. There's your two forms of currency. Time, money. Use the one you add the most of.
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A
Correct. Or the one that you just want to. Want to get rid of.
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B
Yes.
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A
Speaking of that, you talk about, and I love this piece, because you talk about how your words matter. Not you specifically, but you talk to the general public saying their words matter. Can you tell me a time where you realize that your words had, like, weight or influence behind them? I mean, you are. It was, what, 2018 that you were inducted into the Podcast hall of Fame? So that, I mean, your words have affected more than, like, two or three people. Where's the time where you can recall that your words, like, really carried weight behind them?
- [24:20]
B
Well, it's weird that you think that nobody's listening. Of course, you have the first. Well, nobody would listen to me. And then you start wetting your pants. Why? Because people are starting to listen to you. So that's always interesting. But my. My first show was for musicians, and I said, hey, don't forget, for those who have money, there's therapy. For the rest of us, there is music. And it was just a cute little corny thing I would say at the end. And I always tell people, if you come to Akron, Ohio, I will buy you Luigi's pizza. And so I took this guy out. I told my brother, hey, in the Event, I'm dead tomorrow. It's George. You know, I've never met this guy. And he said, hey, do you remember how I used to say that? And I go, yeah, that's pretty cool. I said that. And he goes, yeah, that's not bad. And he goes, I am now a teacher at a university for music. And he goes, I open every semester with that. And I'm like, for real? And he goes, yeah. And I'm like, well, that's kind of cool. So that's one. But the one that knocked me out of my seat, because I'm talking about microphones and bandwidth and. Sure. And I get this email, and it said, hey, I just want to let you know, my best friend of 20 years died suddenly. My job of 20 years died suddenly. And I was pretty sure I had cancer. And my favorite holiday is Halloween, and I was going to take my gun and blow my brains out. He goes, and then I heard your show where you said, sometimes having a podcast can give you a purpose. And I thought, huh, maybe I should start a podcast. And he goes, and I just credit you with saving my life. And I'm reading. It's hard to make Dave Jackson speechless. But I was like, wait, what? So, wow. It was. And that's. And what was weird is I've told that story at different events. I have a buddy of mine, Ken Blanchard, does Speak Life Church. His show he ends, he's got an amazing background. He's a black Republican pastor that teaches gun safety that used to work for either the FBI or the CIA.
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A
That's confusing.
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B
Yeah. And he's a great guy. But at the end of his show, he goes, look, I love you, and there's nothing you can do about that. And I think because of some of his military training, sure, he attracts guys. And like, the one time he had a guy that was literally on the roof, and, you know, he's talking and his wife's like, are you almost done down there? He's down by the dryer doing his podcast or whatever. He's like, I think I'm going to need a minute. And he goes, I'm not. I'm not trained for that. He goes, but he's helped, like, five people, so it's weird that we hear so much about the loneliness epidemic and people are really connecting with podcasters. And I know I've had that. Once I was. I bought a piece of furniture from wherever, you know, slot A into tab B. And I'm just ready to just, you know, eat nails. I'm so Frustrated. And I put on a podcast, and my buddy Brian came out of the speakers, and I was like, okay, Brian's here to make me laugh or whatever. So there is that part, but it's. That's when the guy said, you saved my life. And what I did is he had his phone number in the email, so I called him on Halloween, and I'm like, hey, is this Ryan? He's like, yeah. And I go, this is Dave Jackson. He goes, it is not. And I go, it is. He goes, what are you doing? And I go, dude, I need as many listeners as I can get. I can't have you killing yourself on Halloween. And so I do my best to call him every Halloween just to see what's up.
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A
That's amazing.
- [27:44]
B
Yeah, you just. You never know, you know, and then you don't know who's listening. Where I've had job opportunities. Job opportunities come my way where people are like, oh, what about Dave Jackson? I'm like, well, how did you find out about me? Oh, well, somebody listens to your podcast, and they said this and that, and, you know, so it's just. You just don't know who's. Who's listening. And it's fun.
- [28:04]
A
That's. It's amazing because, yeah, the. The two sides to that is, first off, you don't know who's listening. And one thing that I always tell people, too, is, like, if there was eight people in the room next door, wanted to hear from me, would you go talk to them? And they're like, well, yeah. And I'm like, well, great. If you're only getting 8 downloads, still, walk over next door, record that and post that. The other piece is, too, is. I always like, when you get to ask intentional questions of people, it's that conversation, and that allows you to connect with other people outside, too.
- [28:30]
B
There's one more. There was an early show. I think it was just called the Sales show or something super simple like that. And he got so much sales that he had to quit doing the podcast that brought him sales because. And his favorite story was he'd been trying for years to get to the CEO of this one company. Couldn't get past the gatekeeper. And then the CEO listened to his podcast on a treadmill, called him, called him in.
- [28:59]
A
Is your podcast not getting the results you hoped for? Are you feeling stuck and unsure how to grow your audience or make a real impact? We get it. Podcasting can be a challenge, but with the right strategies, it can be an incredibly powerful tool. That's why we're offering our free no Pitch podcast consultation. We'll spend 30 minutes with you identifying areas for improvement on anything from optimizing your audio or video quality to developing a content strategy that resonates with your customers. If you're ready to unleash your podcast's full potential, visit the link in our show Notes to schedule your free consultation. Space is limited, so sign up today so we can help you create a podcast that truly shines. Stories like that are the ones that I absolutely love because those are the things that, to me, those are where those connections come in and those are where like those stories come in. And the other thing is too is that guy called him. I mean, how much of the planet knows Dave Jackson because they've heard your voice, They've, I mean they've, they've seen your live streams. They, they know. I mean, I, when you walked in the studio today, I full knew who I was getting. I mean, it's not like you're, you're not this super private guy hidden off that no one's ever seen or heard from there. I mean, there's going to be Monty Python jokes, there's going to be hard rock jokes, there's going to be, you know what you're going to get. So to me, that's with this whole 20 year thing though. A little over 20 years of doing this.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah.
- [30:39]
A
How do you feel like you keep it fresh? Because I, there's certain, there's things that you say that are consistent, which is good. You need that consistency. I always, the reference I always make is the Price is Right. It's Bob Barker. Always spay a new to your pets. Thanks for. Right. There's those certain things that you're always going to say. There's always going to be the one guy, $1 Bob. There's always those things that are consistent, that are familiar. But how do you keep things fresh? And I guess I would say up to date, moving forward.
- [31:10]
B
Yeah, it's hard. I will say that. You know, I'm over a thousand episodes now and there are times that I'm like, oh, I already talked about that. Oh, I already talked about that. And so in some cases it's like you said, a new perspective.
- [31:21]
A
Sure.
- [31:21]
B
So I know I've talked about imposter syndrome probably two or three times and like the first time it's like what it is. And 70% of people have this and you know, just kind of got to work through it. Then I came back like two or three years later and I had found clips of celebrities that had imposter syndrome. Like, Garth Brooks was absolutely wetting his pants when he had to play the big park, Central park in New York. He was convinced that nobody was going to show up. And his tour manager came in and said, garth, they had to move the barricades. And he's like, ain't nobody here. And he's like, no, no, there's 80,000 people here. And he's like, you're telling me there's 80,000 people out there? And he's like, no, Garth, I'm telling you there's 80,000 people there 20 minutes ago. And so that's when I'm just like, okay. See, we're all like, if you have imposter syndrome, you're kind of normal. So I always try to come up with new things. The fun thing is podcasting always changes and shifts, and there's always new technology. I just was at an event, and there's this AI tool coming out that
- [32:23]
A
AI people have been talking about. It seems like people are occasionally talking about that.
- [32:27]
B
Yes. I always refer to it now as always increases, because that means if you add it to your software, your price is going up. We all want AI to do everything for us, but it's not going to do it for free. But it was a thing where you gave it, like, three transcripts, and it came up with a target audience for you, like an avatar. And I was kind of like, all right. I told the guy, you have me intrigued. I work in software, so I always know the demo works perfectly. I go, I want to go home and try to break that thing. So there's always that stuff to talk about. And then I'm always open to. I don't do a lot of guests, but I do them when they have a story or they're either going to inspire my audience to keep podcasting because, you know, it gets kind of. I never get tired of saying, hey, you should start a podcast. But I'm pretty sure my audience is tired of having said so. Here I brought in a new person that's going to say, you should start a podcast. So that's always fun, but it's. And I always go back to that one person that's this close to starting a podcast. And I'm like, oh, they've been thinking about it for three and a half years. They got the microphone. It's in a drawer. Like, what can I say today to get them to pull that out? And just. If nothing else, just record it. You don't have to publish it. Just Try it. So it's the teacher in me that's always like, oh, there's that one student out there that just needs to hear this one thing.
- [33:52]
A
I love that. With that you mentioned AI It's a new thing.
- [33:57]
B
I've heard of it.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, I've heard one or two things about it. It too. What do you see as the next big thing? I see some bad things coming in podcasting. Like the AI. Yeah, I forget the name of the company.
- [34:12]
B
Inception Point.
- [34:13]
A
Yes. Inception Point. Yes. That's cranking out just thousands of podcasts every day. What's the next big thing that you see that's good in podcasting? That's. I see. I mean, there's so many great things about podcasting. That's probably one of the reasons why you've been doing it for so long. But what's one of the next big things that you see that's good?
- [34:33]
B
This sounds weird. I love that. Inception point. AI is putting out 3,000 episodes a week that we lovingly call AI slop. Because if you want something to sound loud, put it next to something soft. If you want something to be fast, put it next to something slow. If you want to make something sound good, put it next to AI Slop, and anything is going to sound good. So I love that. That's one way of looking at. Now, I hate the fact that my audience and your audience has to wade through 2ft of AI slop to get to the good stuff. I have a friend of mine that just. He's like, you know, you've been talking about podcasting for 20 years. I just started listening. He goes, man, this one's amazing. And I'm like, great. And he's like, there's so many that are so bad. And I go, yeah, that's. That's, you know, I go, that's why word of mouth comes into a play a lot. So I like that. I. I mean, there are some things, like I did an episode on. Let's get realistic on how long it takes to build an audience. And I was talking about Jerry Seinfeld, how it took him nine years of appearing on the Tonight show to get his show, and then it took his show like four years to just start to take off. So it's 13 years. Same thing with Joe Rogan. He's like 20 years from his overnight succession, his success. But I found this article that you've seen these websites you go to and you get hit with two or three pop ups, and every other paragraph is this. And I'm like, oh, there's this information is right here. I can almost see it through all the ads. And I went to ChatGPT and I said, hey, here's this URL. Make a list of the seasons and the percentage of audience that they were getting on Seinfeld. And it was like, in, like, I don't know, maybe five seconds, there was the list, and I was like, oh, now that's a cool use of AI. Yeah. You know, I am okay as a graphic person, but I look like a guy that's like, you know, using Canva and adding a little bit of a tweak to it, where I just started using whatever it is. Nano Banana.
- [36:33]
A
Yes.
- [36:34]
B
Bana. Yeah.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah.
- [36:36]
B
And that was weird because I did a newsletter where I was talking about, you've probably heard the story about the blind guys feeling the elephant. One guy thinks it's a snake, and one guy thinks it's a tree, et cetera, et cetera. And I could not get anything coming even close. And I went to Nano Banana and said, hey, make this picture. And it did. And I was like, okay, now we're talking. So that was when it does stuff that I can't. That's when I think it's great. What I hate to see is I want to start a podcast to be seen as a thought leader, and I'm going to have AI pick the topic, not based on my audience, but just pick the topic. And then it's going to write the script, and I'm going to read it, so it's going to sound like I'm reading a script, because everyone wants to listen to this. And, you know, and then they wonder, why is my show growing? And I'm like, well, the funny thing
- [37:24]
A
is, you can't do a bland voice well. You're too an. You're. You are too animated to do a planned voice well.
- [37:33]
B
So, yeah, so that's. I like to do it. There have been times at PodPage where I'll write things and I'm a little too Dave, a little too wacky, a little too weird, and I'll throw it into ChatGPT and say, hey, this is my. This is my extensive prompt. Make this better. And it will. And I'll be like, oh, it's like, hey, this is a little more focused and et cetera. And I'm like, perfect. And that goes into the newsletter. So there are some things I like it to polish what I've made without losing my voice that I think is the best use instead of, hey, because I've had it like, hey, write an article. And then I have to go through. And about halfway through, I'm like, I couldn't. Like, I can type. Okay. I'm like. And I can think. Okay. So I'm pretty sure I could have probably just written this one and been about pretty close to the same amount of time.
- [38:21]
A
Sure. The last question that I always like to ask people is, what is that one piece of advice that you're going to give to a podcaster that is just starting out? What's the one thing that they need to do and. Or know as they have started this journey?
- [38:41]
B
Yeah. It's two things. Why are you doing this? Because if the answer is, I don't know, it looks fun. Okay, just stop right now. Like. Like, it's work.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah, we know it's work.
- [38:53]
B
And then the other one is, how are you going to measure your success? And so many people go. They look at me and they kind of give me a head tilt. And they go, downloads. And I'm like, okay, anything else? And they're like, what else is there? And I'm like, well, Jen Briney does congressional dish. She kind of measures her success because she reads the bills that go through Congress, God bless her. And then she tries to read them impartially. And when people say, hey, normally I would have voted for this person, but based on what you just told me, I voted for this person. So she wants to change. Not so much like black to blue or blue. She's like, I just want you to make an informed decision. Yep. So that's how she measures that for me. In January, right now, my downloads are going through the roof because everybody's like, this is the year I'm starting a podcast. And then in February, much like gym
- [39:44]
A
memberships, I was just going to say, you're a gym.
- [39:46]
B
You're a gym. Yeah, the downloads go down, but the membership goes up. Well, this is what I base my success on. So if I based my downloads or if I based my success on downloads, I'd be under the table in a fetus position right now because. Or come February, but I don't. And so I'm like, oh, okay, cool. So there's, you know, it could be growing your network again. And, wow, I did. I didn't used to have any friends, and I got five friends that, you know, we meet and we have a mastermind, or so there's so many different ways, but if you don't get that, that's when you burn out. And so many people think, I'm going to start a podcast. I'm going to get ads, I'm going to make money and quit my day job in six weeks. And I go, six years. Maybe six weeks. I don't think so.
- [40:26]
A
I was going to say six weeks after six years.
- [40:28]
B
Yes.
- [40:30]
A
They have the six part right. It's like when someone present me, like, someone's like, hey, this is only $50,000. And I'm like, well, I have the 50. Do you have the thousand? Yeah, yeah. Same idea.
- [40:40]
B
I usually tell people somewhere around three years is when you have the audience that you can then decide, okay, now what I want to do with that. But that's if you're good. And then there's. There's always, in some cases, a little bit of luck in there.
- [40:52]
A
Sure.
- [40:52]
B
You know, I have a friend of mine, Cliff Ravenscraft, known as the podcast Answer man. And he started a show about the TV show Lost. And then about a month and a half after he started it, CBS officially launched a Lost podcast. People searched for it because he had more content. They found Cliff and he got a boatload of traffic to his podcast. Wow. So a little bit of luck, but he had to keep them. You got to have the talent.
- [41:20]
A
Yes.
- [41:20]
B
And so, you know, he's done a bunch of stuff with that audience over the years. So sometimes it's not, you know, it doesn't suck to be a little lucky at times.
- [41:30]
A
No. There's always. Even Mark Cuban said, you got to have luck, you got to be good. But I mean, you're going to be luckier if you're at least good. And part. To me, the way to be good is to have the preparation in and doing the episodes. Right. And things of that. And having, like you said, that expectation of, like, this is not six weeks.
- [41:48]
B
Yeah, enjoy that. Going back to the new person. Enjoy the ride.
- [41:53]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [41:53]
B
So many times we are so focused on the download and we got to do this and that. Like, hey, look outside. There's like beautiful flowers. And, you know, and we. We just miss it. It's. It's kind of fun at the end of the year to go back and see. Oh, okay. I've. I've grown whatever, 4% of my followers. Right. It's not a huge graph, but it's. It's upwards trending. And I'm like, if I continue this another two years, I've gone from here to, you know, low space to high space, and I'm like, so don't forget to look around and realize that I just came back from Podfest and this sounds Weird. But I think I bought one meal because I would just be walking along and somebody would go, hey, you got any lunch plans? I'm like, no. I'd go to lunch and I'd go to pay. And they go, oh, no way. They're like, you've helped me so much. I'm buying your lunch. And I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna argue with that. So you just never know. And that's stuff that you shouldn't take for granted.
- [42:48]
A
No. So absolutely amazing. Where can, like, if people are interested in school of podcasting in PodPage, where can they and should they find you at?
- [42:57]
B
Yeah, just go to schoolofpodcasting.com if you want to see what your show would look like in PodPage. Start your 14 day free trial. Go to podpage.com preview and you can see it there. Play with it. It's fun, it's great. And the great thing about podpages, once you see it, you're like, oh, this makes sense. Where's this been? Yeah.
- [43:19]
A
So wonderful, Dave, thank you. As I said, it's been an honor. I truly appreciate the time and for everyone out there, I have a lot to think about before I come back with the summary.
- [43:33]
B
That's it. What did we learn today? So I love it.
- [43:43]
A
Connection. That is one of the biggest things that comes from this. When Dave mentioned the story about the gentleman that didn't commit suicide because of Dave's podcast, Holy cow. I mean, I could feel the temperature change in the room almost. I mean, what a story about connection. Now do I expect my podcast to do that? No. And that's the second thing that I really want to talk about, is what my expectations are for my podcast. I have them written down. So I know what I'm looking for, I know what I'm trying to do, and I know where I'm trying to go. If you don't have that, you don't get through those hard times. Because let's face it, we've talked about this, podcasting is work. Now, if we're doing all the production for you, it's less work than you may have otherwise. But in the same sense, if you're properly prepared, if you're properly set up and if you're doing things right, it's some work. And you need something to get you through those tough times that. That North Star, here's where we're headed. That is what will get you through that. That Dave made a really big point of that is knowing where you're going and then knowing what your expectations are. I know a lot of people set high expectations. They're like, I'm going to be Joe Rogan overnight, and you're not. Joe Rogan built that over 20 years. Other big podcast companies have either built it over a long period of time, or they have built it on the backs of dump trucks full of cash. So one of the two things, it's either time or money. Dave and I joke about that during the podcast. You're either going to give up time or money. It's one of the two things that's what's going to help you with your podcast. And to me, it's knowing the expectation of, like, if you're willing to put in the small amounts of time over a length of time, that is what's going to really help you and build that podcast. If you are consistent, consistently show up, talk to the people that you want to talk to. Talk to your people. Dave and I talked a little bit off camera afterwards about how in many cases, he's like, occasionally I get a message saying, you're going to talk about that. And he's like, yeah. One of the things that I loved about Dave is that from on the mic to, like, just outside of the studio talking, he's the same guy. He's authentic. That's another thing that I want to really bring up in this is be yourself. Don't try and be something else. Don't try and be something different. Don't be this caricature. Be yourself. That authenticity is what's going to help you find your audience. I realized that there's people that I am just not everyone's cup of tea. I totally realized that long time ago. I'm okay with it. I want to work with the people who I am their cup of tea. It's the same thing for Dave. That's why he's got. I mean, this with the school of podcasting. That's why he works with the people the way he does. He's. He's good at what he does. We're good at what we do. It's different ways of doing things, and I absolutely love that. And it's the fact that we're authentic in how we all do that and. And how we podcast. It just makes a huge difference in how we can connect with you and those that are like you. If I wasn't me, probably wouldn't be listening to this, right? Maybe you want someone else who knows. That being said, though, those are really some of the big things that I took away from this is that really, you have to have that North Star. You have to know why you're doing this, and you have to know where you're going. Those are the big things that if you have that, everything else can be pulled from that. To me, to just have the chance to sit down and talk with Dave here in the studio just. I mean, I had a podcasting OG. Dave is a 2018 podcast hall of Fame inductee sitting here in the studio. How cool is that? These are the doors that podcasting can open up for you. If you have questions about it, by all means, reach out. Would love to hear from you on that. Beyond that, I need you to do me one more favor. Take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too, I will see you very, very soon. Creating engaging content can feel overwhelming, but it doesn't have to be. That's why I'm excited to share our Stomping Podcasting newsletter. You'll get actionable insights and expert tips straight to your inbox. These are to help you maximize your video marketing and podcasting return on investment. Head over to the Show Notes and click the link to subscribe to our free newsletter. Don't miss out on this opportunity to become a video marketing and podcasting pro.