← podcasts Archives - Dana K. White: A Slob Comes Clean
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Welcome to A Slob Comes Clean, the podcast. I am Dana K. White. I share my personal deslobification process as I figure out ways to keep my own home under control. I share the truth about cleaning and organizing strategies that actually work in real life for real people. People who don't love cleaning and organizing. Thanks for joining me today. This is podcast number 507 and I think I'm going to call it Helping Others Declutter. These are questions that have been asked ahead of time@askdanak white.com you can always go there and ask a question, just know that it's not answered in real time. And I answer them here on the podcast and on YouTube lives that I do on Tuesdays, most Tuesdays over on YouTube. But if you need somebody to actually help you walk through the no mess decluttering process in your own space, go to decluttering coaches.com because that is my website. Everybody there listed is trained and certified by me. And you can get somebody to help you through your own space. So anyway, but we're talking about helping others. Questions that have been asked around this idea because y', all, those of y' all that are listening who personally have struggled in the past or who are still struggling but have learned things that have been helpful for you. I feel like we're really nice people and we tend to want to help other people. And some of these are, how do I help the people in my house who you know, I want to help them for my own benefit. But a lot of these are about helping people who are just in your life that you love and you see. Or they have asked for help with decluttering. And how do we go about that? Because it's a tricky subject. I know this as the person who was struggling in my home who wanted help, but then also the help that was given to me often by very well meaning people, often wasn't that helpful. I have shared many times and my mom listens occasionally to my podcast. Actually the other day she's like, oh, you still do your podcast? It's like, mom, okay, so maybe she doesn't listen anymore. Hi, mom, if you happen to be here, but. Cause I was like, yeah, actually I, I do. I still do my podcast. I'm on episode five zero something anyway, but that, you know, when my mom would come and help me, she was always kind, she was always considerate, she was always seeking to understand me. She wanted to help me in a way that would actually be beneficial for me. She was never judgmental. However, the problem was that she was helping me organize because she has a very high clutter threshold. So in her mind, it was a matter of getting it into an organized fashion, when in reality, I have a very low clutter threshold. I didn't know that yet, but I knew that every time she would get my stuff organized for me or help me get it organized, I could never maintain it. That's because I need to have less stuff. Right. So that the help wasn't as helpful. I was also sometimes, occasionally helped by someone who I asked for help, and then they were not that helpful because they were like, oh, just do this, this, this, and this. And I'm like, I'm lost already. And now I'm mad, and now I want to hold on to everything. So it just. This is a real thing. This is a real thing that so many of you who have experienced success want to be helpful to others. And so it's a great thing for us to talk about. How do we navigate helping other people
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First question. How do I help a friend who is in rehab having difficulty walking to declutter her apartment for when she is released? Currently, she wouldn't be able to move around the apartment because of all the clutter. I don't want her to go into a tailspin because I moved or touched her stuff. Help. Okay, so I'm going to have to make some assumptions here, because this is the only information that I have is what's in front of me right now. Okay. I'm going to go with the assumption that you've been asked to help or that maybe you're going to offer to help. I don't know if this is something where she won't be allowed to go home until it's, you know, movable and functional for her to be able to get around. I don't know if we're talking about specifically a hoarding situation, which may also have some, you know, other dynamics in there as far as the attachment to the stuff. I don't know all the situations, so I'm just going to go from the perspective of what I go from. And I just love. And I say that sarcastically. I just love it when somebody like, oh, I think this is what they meant. And I'm like, yeah, that's probably right. But all I can do is all I can do in the moment and what it is that I'm getting out of the question right now. So. Okay. Right. All right, so let's say that you have been welcomed or asked to provide help, okay. Or that she has agreed for you to provide help. What I would first do, okay, Is anything that even anything that just obviously has to be done. And when I say that, what I mean is the stuff like dishes, okay? If we're going into a situation, and I know you said clutter, but if by chance there are dishes that are unwashed, the first thing to do would be to do the dishes, okay. And get those done, then what I would do is I would fill the cabinets with the best ones, okay? Assuming that there's a bunch of dishes on the counter or whatever, I would fill the cabinets with what you are pretty sure are the best ones. And then I would set aside the other ones as neatly as possible to give her as much space to be able to work in there. And I don't know, this says, you know, she wouldn't be able to move around the apartment because of all the clutter. Okay? So what your goal needs to be is to work on function first. Where does she need to be able to get? Does she need to be able to get from the front door or wherever she would enter to the place where she would sit, the place where she would sleep, to the kitchen and to the bathroom? Okay? So those. Think of it first as clearing paths in those spaces. And I would ask her, before you go in, is there anything you already know that I could go ahead and take care of you for you? Because it's very possible that there are categories of items that she's been meaning to deal with, okay. That maybe it's, oh, I needed to take those magazines or those newspapers or whatever for recycling. Because we know that a lot of times, and I'm speaking from experience here, so much clutter comes from good intentions of I'm, oh, yeah, that's right. I'm going to figure out how to recycle these things. Whatever. Ask her is, is there anything that you already know you've been meaning to do that I could go ahead and do for you to clear up some space? Okay? So if you've been in there and you know, maybe you could give some examples, but give them very non judgmentally. Meaning, like, is there anything. If she can't think of anything, say, well, is there any. I noticed there's a lot of magazines. Would you like for me to recycle any of those for you? No. Okay. All right. What about. There are. It looks like there are some bags of recycling. Can I go ahead and take those out? Whatever. You know, just. Again, I don't know the whole situation, I don't know what the reaction is going to be here, but I would say let her know that that's your goal. I am not going in to overhaul your living space the way that probably a lot of other people in her life have been like, let me get my hands on it. You know, that is the most annoying thing that people say, let me get my hands on your space. I'll take care of that. And you're like, well, you're never welcome, you know, so you go in, you say, hey, is there anything that you already know that you'd like me to do? I'm thinking I'm going to wash the dishes, get some space cleared in the kitchen, right. For that, work on that. And then if, you know, there are a lot of empty packages, you know, empty bottles. Would it, would it be okay, you know, with you if I just go in and kind of deal with the empty, empty things? Like, if something is an empty package, I'm going to go ahead and get rid of that. Like, you know, just kind of make these categories of things. And then also I would use your phone and hopefully she's got a phone that she's got with her in rehab. And you can, you know, send some pictures and say, hey, as I was getting rid of these things, I, I ran across this item that I'm not quite sure is. Would you consider this to be trash? Okay, yes. Or, you know, if the trash word is something that's. I can't say that word now, but is this something you want me to recycle? Whatever. And I would also work on the catching up on laundry. You know, if a lot of so many times piles are actually clothing piles. So ask her if, because there's a lot of clothes on the floor, I'm going to wash those for you. I'm going to go ahead and wash those for you. Maybe you'll need to take them to your house or to a laundromat to do that. Or even maybe if you're able financially to hire out those things being washed, all of those things, those Basics of dishes and laundry and trash, you know, like, go ahead and get out anything that already is trash. Those are the things that are harder to argue with. They may still argue. And a lot of times that argument comes from like, I don't want you doing that. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. But the reality is she's in a situation now where she physically can't do it. And so your goal is to say, what are the things I. I can do which may be a little bit easier to direct when she's not there. Right. And say, this is my goal. I'm going to make these paths. And as much as you're able, especially when a category, if she. If she says, you know what, you're right. Those magazines, you know, maybe there's resistance in the beginning, but after you've sent her a picture of all these different magazines, sometimes, a lot of times people will come, you know what? You can get rid of the magazines. Okay, can we say all magazines or just this magazine? Okay. You know, and then you'll. It will build over time. But that's the main thing I would do, is clear those. Those spaces. And it's not going to be perfect. It's not going to be ideal. But your goal is to make it safe for her, and that's more functional. It is. When she gets home, then as you're maybe able to spend some time together, you can go through the five step, no mess decluttering process. If. If trash is something she's unable to identify, remember that you say, is there anything here that you see that's trash that I could go ahead and throw away? No. Okay, great. You take her word for it, and then you move to the next one. Okay. Is there anything here that you already know where it goes? I'll go ahead. You just tell me where it goes. I'll go ahead and take it there. Okay. And then you. Is there anything here that is a donation that I could get out for you? Okay, great. And then you work through one item at a time, pick it up and say, hey, where would you look for this first? Where would you look for this mug first? Okay. Okay, well, so there's not any in there. Can you think of one that I could get rid of that we could donate? Because there's not any space in there. I just went and I tried to take it there now. No, you can't. Okay, let me take a picture. Here's. Here's one. Do you see anything in this picture? Here's the thing it. Yes, it's going to go so slow. But the more you actually follow the process, even though it's slow in the beginning, the more it's going to speed up. Here's what happens so often when you're helping someone else declutter, especially someone who maybe this wasn't their idea. She needs this. She needs help. She's in a situation she where now you have the opportunity to. To help her. Okay. A lot of times, because people assume that decluttering is going to require a lot of emotional decisions. They don't know that you're doing things differently. Okay, so because they know, because they assume that decluttering with you is going to be like decluttering has been with their mom or their brother or whoever who tried to throw all their stuff away. There's going to be a lot of resistance in the beginning. But the more you stick with the no mess process, the more you stick with those five steps that are non emotional, non judgmental. Every time she says, no, that's not trash, and you go, okay, that trust you're earning in that moment is the exactly the thing that's going to speed this up eventually. Okay, so you going, all right, you know, where would you look for the smug first? Oh, I don't know. I don't know where it should go because I know my mug shelf. Okay, well, but where would. If you needed a mug, where would you go look for it first? You know, just stick with it. No, no, no, you don't have to. There's not a right answer. There's no right answer. No, no, no, don't worry about it. Like, it's not. It's not where I would look for it. That doesn't matter. Only thing that matters is how you would look where you would look for it in your house. So, yeah, if it's a weird space, that's fine. You know, like, you go through this process because so many times, and I know this as the person who people tried to help, there's just a digging in of the heels. Like, if I can just be difficult enough, they will give up and we won't have to do this anymore. But you following the process, being kind and sticking to it, and if you need to spend 20 minutes helping them really understand that you just want to know their instinct, not deciding on a place of where something should be. But like, I really it. The only thing that matters is where you would look for it first. Okay, let's go. Not that you can't skip an item, but like, going through that process, and if you do skip an item, you go to the next one. Okay, well, where would you look for this first? Okay, great. And then you really are going to take it there now, and then you really are going to come back with a picture of that space saying, hey, there's no room for it. What are you willing to get rid of? Oh, you know, like, going through that process is going to make. First of all, it's going to help them see, oh, this isn't quite as hard. And she's not being rude and she's not being demeaning, and, oh, this actually does make sense. And then it's going to speed up every time they go, oh, okay, well, now that. Now that I said the shelf under the, I don't know, the shelf under the microwave or whatever, that's not a weird place. I was trying to think of a weird place to put a mug. But anyway, every time that, you know, they name a weird place and you don't judge them and you go put it there and then something leaves the house in order to make space, even though that took you 15 minutes to work to work through, they're going to be like, oh, oh, she really isn't judgy. And so then they're a little bit more willing to say it the next time. Okay, so. So as far as, like, it sounds like you said in here, I don't want her to go into a tailspin because I moved or touched her stuff. So sounds like maybe that's a real concern in this situation. So really talking to her and giving her as much. As much control as possible, even though she doesn't have control, she's in a difficult situation right now and, and really, like, going with it, that is going to, you know, going with her answers on things, but sticking to it is the thing that's going to be helpful there. But the first step would be do the things that really can't be argued. Wash the dishes, help get laundry caught up. Ask her if there's anything like, hey, I noticed this, you know, bag full of stuff. It looks like it was a bag of things to go to Goodwill. Do you want me to go ahead and take that for you? That kind of thing? It's a real problem that teens are spending so much time on their phones and on social media that it's affecting their mental health. But the good news is that there is a solution. Gab has addressed the problem by doing something that no one else is doing. 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Listeners can get $25 off their best selling Carver Mat Frame with Code Clean that's a U r a f frames.com promo code clean Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is sponsored by Better Health. Life is a journey full of ups and downs. Some days are good, others feel overwhelming. It can feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But May is Mental Health Awareness Month and the truth is no one has all of the answers. Having someone who will listen, understand and support you can make all the difference. At Better Help, you'll find therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the us. They match you with a therapist using a short questionnaire identifying your needs and preferences. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time. Working with my better Health therapist was incredibly helpful. She helped me shift my perspective and gave me real strategies to work through some pretty daunting challenges. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. So sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com clean that's better. H E-L-P.com clean seeking advice for helping others now this is one I'm just going to tell y' all that I'm not really going to give you a satisfactory answer, but once you hear the question if you know me, you'll know why. Seeking advice for helping others declutter things that have been a major source of frustration and resentment for myself My partner has too many T shirts that his closet is unusable and creeps into my side. I resent that they creep into my closet and I can't use my dresser and feel like I deserve space more than these things. But I don't want to take out that frustration on him or hurt our relationship and derail the process either. It says, even if you can't answer this, thanks so much for your content. It's been so helpful. Okay, so on this, first of all, your feelings are legitimate, right? But you acknowledge I don't want to hurt our relationship. But this is one of the reasons why I say start with your own stuff and neutral stuff first, because this is a problem area and it's possible that you've decluttered every other thing in the house and that now it's down to the closet. But most of the time when we get this urge to declutter or we get this hope for decluttering because we finally learned that there is a way to declutter where we don't cause more chaos. When we get that hope, it is very normal to try to tackle or to think about tackling the most difficult space, the most frustrating space. So the first thing I would say is to go declutter somewhere other than here. Because this is the place where it's not just about the clutter. It's about you feeling frustrated and maybe misunderstood or, you know, oh great, now we have to have a conversation about this is my space and that's your space and are we supposed to really have that conversation and blah blah, blah. Like, start with something else would be my first thing. Start in the most visible area if there. If there are parts of the kitchen that are yours, you know, where it's kind of like, oh, these are, you know, the things that I use in the kitchen. Start with that and really zero in on improving the function by having less stuff and more space in those places. If it is your car, I don't know, like, any. Any space that is really, truly. You're like, oh, I can do this space. Because it's not a shared space. It's really kind of my thing. My. If you happen to have, you know, different. I don't know. I was gonna say sinks in the bathroom, but a lot of people only have one sink, so. But whatever it is that you can do, that's your stuff or neutral stuff or get rid of your own clothes to. To free up more space. And I know that sometimes that means things creep into that open space, but wherever you can go that doesn't bring up these feelings, do that first. And then as you're doing that, especially if you're doing it in a visible way, that improves the overall function of the home for everybody who lives in it, then enjoy that improved function. But also, as conversations come up, start talking about, you know, well, yeah, I wanted to get rid of stuff because I was realizing it was making my life a lot harder. You know, start having these conversations. And then as the conversations come up, you do need to talk about it and say, you know, I. I feel like I don't have as much space over here because of, you know, these things. And. And I've gotten rid of my excess stuff. And yet I still feel like, you know, I don't know. It's one of those things where I can't give you relationship advice. Right. But what I can tell you is that if there is anything else that you can declutter without having to feel these frustrations and have this conversation, do that first. Because it's going to change how you see things, and it is going to at least provide the opportunity for the other person in your house to see or the other people in your house to see. Oh, wow. It's a lot easier to function in these spaces that have been decluttered, which then changes the perspective on that. Because if you are going to this place where, you know all these T shirts, all these T shirts. Oh, we don't need all these T shirts. Right. And that's where you're starting. That's like zero to 90. Like, that's. That's going to the hardest, hardest thing. And there's probably a lot of easy stuff to do first. When I'm decluttering a space and come across items that belong to other family members. What should I do? Put them in a box for them to eventually go through later. Did you hear the question mark on that? That's not my answer. Put the items on their bed to deal with. Right now I'm specifically cleaning out a dresser in the guest room and want it empty. Okay, So a lot of this comes down to what is your relationship with these other people? Are you the mom? Are you. You know, I mean, like, what. What is it? What's the relationship here? If you're the mom and it is your role to be the one who is saying, hey, this, this, this, and this needs to be done and people do those things, then you can do that. If I wouldn't put it in a box, okay, you can put it on their bed. If you also have the personality to remember when they're home to explain what it is and why it's there and what they need to do with it. Because that's my problem. I used to be the kind. I was like, oh, I'll do this. And then my kids would get home and it would never cross my mind. And by the time I thought about it, those things had been shoved to the corners their rooms like that. That is just so I. The first thing I would do on this. It doesn't have to just be these answers, okay? Right now I'm specifically cleaning out a dresser in the guest room and want it empty. The first thing I would do is deal with anything that's not these things that belong to other people. And there's probably some things that don't belong to other people. There's probably some trash. There's probably some easy stuff that does have, you know, an established home somewhere else. There is. There are probably some obvious donations in this room that's a guest room that, no, people don't really go in. There's probably some things that you can relocate that you have that they're kind of your things or neutral things for you to be like, okay, this dresser is going to be empty. That's the goal we want to empty for guests. So that means that, you know, where would I look for this first if this dresser was empty so it can't live here anymore? And then I would go with that first thing, do that as much as you can. And then most likely, you're going to be able to consolidate. You're going to be able to, you know, like, skip over their things until the point where you're like, okay, now their stuff can Fit in one or two drawers. This happens to me all the time. I'm like, oh, this is all other people's stuff. And I blah, blah, blah. And then I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to do the things that are mine or neutral. And then I'm always like, oh, well, a lot more of it was mine than I thought. You know, we had this conversation in my Patreon group recently. Like, somebody was just saying exactly that. Like, I was convinced this was all my husband's stuff. And I was like, yeah, I'll just do what I can so that once I say something, it's clearly, you know, I've already at least gotten my stuff out of there. And then when I got their stuff out, it was the vast majority of it. Right? Like, and it happens all the time. So go ahead and do your stuff. And the neutral stuff in this drawer, in this dresser. And then most likely, those things are going to be able to consolidated. Be consolidated to one or two drawers. You might decide, you know what? Actually, if I have five empty drawers and one that is the stuff of other people, I'm good with that. Or you go in and it's obvious that you've done a lot of work in here. And it's. You're not starting out by saying, everybody gets stuff out of this drawer. Because that's what I would do. And then my family would be like, what? What, what? Why are we all of a sudden caring about this drawer? You know? And anyway, that's basically how it has to go. 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This is a question about a friend's house. They have an unfinished basement that is full of stuff accumulated over the years. The basement is huge. They want to declutter it and eventually Finish it to make it a livable space. There's gardening stuff, old furniture, medical devices, an old gym rack with weights, old kids toys, etc. How do I apply the decluttering questions to these items that could be useful but obviously are not used? It's hard to apply the container concept because the basement is only half full. A similar problem is in the garage at their house. One car still fits with lots of room left over because it's so big. But truly most of the stuff in that garage isn't really used. How do you work through a project like that? Thanks in advance. Okay, so you're kind of skipping ahead to the container concept and going, but the container concept isn't necessarily going to work here because it's so big and so there technically is room. But the reality is the container concept is the fifth step of the process. You often can get a space done without ever even having to get to that. Because by the time you get to it, you're fine. You can make huge progress. Remember, the goal is less. The goal is not to have it perfect, but the way to get it perfect is to make your goal less instead of perfect. So even if your goal is perfect, so you focus, go through the steps. Okay? And remember you said, how do I apply the decluttering questions to these items that could be useful but obviously are not used? Remember my decluttering questions never ask is it useful. That is not a decluttering question that I use. Whether it's useful or not affects the answers to my decluttering questions. But my decluttering question is never is this useful. So you don't need to ask that. That doesn't need. You're. You're borrowing trouble there. Okay, start. And the other thing I think that's here that's really important is the fact that you said this person, they want to declutter it and eventually finish it to make it a livable space. Remember, if it's going to be a livable space, it has to have space for availability. It has to have space for living. So that means it needs to be emptied. But you don't even need to go in and say, okay, if you want this to be livable, that means we have to have empty space, space for availability. They don't even need to know that yet. The only thing you do is they want help decluttering. So you take your trash bag, your recycling bin, if you or they already have one, your a donatable donate box, and that's it. And then maybe you're the Feet to help them. And you say, is there any. Do you see anything that's trash. Let's just get rid of that. In spaces like this, where it's a jumble of stuff, just getting rid of the trash is incredibly powerful. I mean, you will be amazed if you just zero in on trash if they don't see any trash. If you're like, oh, well, these boxes over here, can we break those down and put those in recycling? No, no, no. That's for such and such. Okay, Right. All right. Anything in here that you already know what to do with, but it doesn't go in here. Anything that you know goes somewhere else in the house. Let's get those things out of here. Anything in here that you know isn't is just like, oh, of course I can donate that. And let's do that. Cause sometimes it's the work of getting the weight bench up the stairs. That's a lot of work. But if you're there to help and maybe you can do that, or you've got some people that you can call in to do that, you get those things out so many times, it's. I can't declutter my basement because there's a weight bench down there, and that's going to be so heavy to carry up when in reality there are other things I can do. But also, if I will get the stuff and get it out of here and go through that one time, then it's done, and then I can really move forward. Okay. So really zero in on that. And then once you have gotten what you can access, that's either trash, easy stuff, or obvious donation, then you start picking things up. And you don't ask if it's useful. You say, if you needed this item, where would you look for it first? If you needed this garden hoe, where would you look for it first? Well, I would look for it down here. Oh, yeah, yeah. But we're going to clear. We're clearing this space out to be a living space. So if this space was cleared out and it was a living space, where would you look first for a garden hoe? Okay. And then you take it there now. Oh, we've already got seven garden hoes. Oh, okay. Are you willing to get rid of one of them to make the room for this one? You go through it item by item, not asking if it's useful, but the taking it there now is often the thing that shows, oh, this might be useful, but I don't actually need it. But I'm not asking is it Useful. I'm not asking do I need it? I'm asking where I would look for it. And I'm taking it there now. And by doing that, it reveals. I've got plenty of garden hose. Okay, so the way you work through a project like that is to use the five step process. Another thing I recommend is to sign up for my newsletter@aslobechemsclean.com 5f I V E and use that printable, that five step printable. Print that out to take with you so that you kind of have something outside of yourself to say, okay, step one is this. Let's do that. There's just something about you not being like, hey, I know how to declutter and I'm going to tell you how to declutter. And here are the steps on a piece of paper. That's very helpful. All right, last question. Again, I'm not going to give the answer. Some people would want me to, right? But my 7 year old struggles to let go of toys. Even though she has outgrown them. They have so many memories, she gets upset. Okay, so on this one, it all comes down to the container concept. Okay? And she goes on to say she gets really. She does remember things. She does remember, you know, she can't sneak things out because she'll remember a year later. She plays with a lot of different things with a lot of different people that she's with this because there's so much here. And it's emotions, emotions, emotions. That's where the container concept is even more important. Okay, so, all right, first we start with those first three steps, which is anything. She can easily get rid of anything that is trash. You're sometimes surprised by that. Sometimes you're surprised by the things that they're willing to donate. But if not, you move on. And where would you look for this first? Okay, let's put this here. And as the mom, you designate the container and it said, but she, she doesn't like that. So it says, let's see, I have tried the favorites in first to drawers and she refuses because she knows that what won't fit, I would have, I would get rid of. Okay? So she knows what's coming and so she doesn't want to do that. Right? But this is where you blame the container. Avoid letting it turn into a power struggle and just keep going back to the container. The size of the space is the size of the space. The size of the drawer is the size of the drawer. And remember that when you are using the container concept with Kids, the best part of that is that you get to be the good guy and the container is the bad guy. So what that looks like is this. This is the drawer that we have for Beanie Babies. I know that makes me sound old to even say, but you know what I mean. This is the drawer that we have for Beanie Babies. Put your favorite ones in first. Pick your favorite Beanie Babies. And even if she knows what's coming, but let's just put your favorite ones in first, okay? And she says, but we're gonna have to get rid of them. And you're like, I know. It's so sad, isn't it? I wish we could keep them all instead of, you can't keep them all. There's a difference. Like, oh, isn't it? It is so sad. I wish we could put your favorite ones in first. Oh, yeah. And then at the end, when it's full, which usually. And I know this is not the case in this situation, but usually it's surprising that just the putting the favorites in first naturally sorts out the things that are less important. But even if it is full and then there's no. No, I have to have another drawer for Beanie Babies. Great. Okay. Well, then let's get rid of these other things. Like, your answer gets to always be yes. You get to always be sympathetic, and you get to feel. Sit with them in the pain. It is hard to get rid of some things that you love. It is hard to not be able to keep everything. And so sit with her in that. And I, I'm. I. I try not to give parenting advice, which is the reason I'm not going into all that. She'll be fine. Blah, blah. I'm not going to say all that. I'm just gonna say, go through that pain with her. But also, you probably should order Winnie's Pile of Pillows or get it from your library. Ask your library to order it. But you know my new children's book, Winnie's Pile of Pillows? If I do say so myself, I've heard from a lot of parents who have said, oh, this has totally changed how my kid thought about their favorite stuff. Because in it, Winnie falls in love with pillows, and she has all these opportunities. She's got so many pillows, and then she realizes they are keeping me from enjoying my room. They're keeping me from enjoying my space. And so I'm going to keep my favorites and let the others go to someone else so I can enjoy my space. So, Winnie's Pile of Pillows by Danny K. White. That's me. But the other thing to remember too is that the five minute pickup is the gauge for whether you're under your clutter threshold. And you don't even have to use the word clutter threshold or the word gauge. Okay. You can just say, okay, well, on a regular day, we need to be able to get all this stuff put away in five minutes. And so the more you are able to get done in five minutes, the more stuff you can keep. Right? But you let that five minute pickup be another thing that is outside of you that she. That the child actually has control over is if we. If we can get things put away in five minutes, once things are down to, you know, the container concept, then great. But oh, man, this is more than we can put away in five minutes. So we need to have less stuff. Like let use these things that are concrete outside of you. No need for arguing things to help you have these hard conversations. But then also admit that they're hard. Admit that decluttering is hard. The other thing, too, is to make sure that you're decluttering your own stuff in front of her. Even things that you love. Get rid of some stuff that you absolutely love for the sake of function and space. Okay, I hope that was helpful. I don't know. I'm doing a podcast about helping others. And then I'm like, I don't know. It's hard. It's hard helping others, but it's worth it. And the no mess decluttering process is the way to do it. It just is. Okay, I will talk to y' all later. Bye.