92NY Presents: Podcrushed LIVE (with Modern Love’s Anna Martin)

Summary

Podcrushed Episode Summary: "92NY Presents: Podcrushed LIVE (with Modern Love’s Anna Martin)"

Introduction to the Live Event Hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari, the 92NY live episode of Podcrushed featured a special guest, Anna Martin, host of Modern Love for The New York Times. The event took place at Budweiser Hall at the Arnhold Center, 92nd Street Y, New York, on July 30, 2025. The hosts warmly welcomed attendees and introduced the evening's agenda, emphasizing the podcast's focus on exploring the adolescence of middle school through personal stories and meaningful conversations.

Icebreaker: Revisiting Middle School Selves To kick off the conversation, the hosts engaged in a nostalgic icebreaker, where each introduced their middle school selves.

• Penn Badgley reflected on his younger, shy self: “[05:27]... I was a quiet, very shy kid in the Pacific Northwest discovering a love for R&B music.”

• Sophie Ansari humorously shared her experience as “Silly Sophie,” recalling her deep involvement in acting from a young age: “[07:15]... I was working professionally by the time I was 12 and enjoying that, loving that.”

• Nava Kavilan reminisced about her first crush influenced by the Spice Girls and her time at asthma camp: “[07:30]... I was in love with my best friend, giving him advice on how to land a girl, and also spent a summer at asthma camp.”

This segment set a personal and engaging tone, highlighting the universal and relatable experiences of middle schoolers.

Origins and Evolution of Podcrushed The conversation shifted to the origin story of Podcrushed, primarily attributed to Nava Kavilan’s inspiration during the 2020 pandemic when she sought uplifting and relatable middle school stories:

• Nava Kavilan explained: “[09:02]... I listened to a podcast where a girl read her middle school diary, and it was so relatable and funny. When I couldn’t find a similar podcast, I decided to create one.”

• Sophie Ansari added context about Nava’s background as a middle school teacher and administrator, emphasizing the unique developmental period of middle school: “[10:19]... I had been a middle school teacher and administrator, and I remembered how crazy and fun middle schoolers were.”

The hosts discussed how Podcrushed initially focused on middle school stories but has since expanded to encompass a broader range of adolescent experiences, including more mature topics.

The Importance of Middle School Experiences Delving deeper, the hosts and Anna Martin examined why middle school is a pivotal period worth exploring:

• Sophie Ansari highlighted the neurological and psychological transformations during adolescence, citing brain plasticity and the development of moral, spiritual, and political perspectives: “[10:36]... there's just this unique time in life where you're advanced enough to do wild things, but your brain isn't developed enough to prevent those actions.”

• Nava Kavilan emphasized the newfound independence middle schoolers gain, their increased social interactions, and the influence of social media: “[12:54]... they are being opened up to so many more forces in the world... they're on social media.”

The discussion underscored how these formative years shape individuals’ identities, social scripts, and future behaviors.

The Impact of Crushes on Personal Development A significant portion of the episode focused on the role of crushes during middle school and their lasting impact:

• Penn Badgley questioned why crushes should be taken seriously, probing their deeper psychological implications: “[27:20]... why do you think we should take crushes seriously and not discount them as frivolous?”

• Nava Kavilan responded by explaining how crushes reflect personal values and societal influences, and how early crushes can set social scripts that persist into adulthood: “[27:58]... a crush tells you something about a person and a time and place.”

• Sophie Ansari elaborated on the authenticity of feelings experienced during crushes and the need to validate them while providing perspective: “[31:03]... your feelings are always valid... but it's a complete fantasy that life won't be okay without this person.”

The hosts discussed how understanding these early emotions can lead to self-compassion and personal growth, emphasizing that crushes are not merely fleeting infatuations but integral to emotional development.

Reflections and Advice on Adolescent Hardships Responding to audience questions, the hosts and Anna Martin shared insights on overcoming challenges faced during adolescence:

• Sophie Ansari stressed the importance of understanding as a pathway to relief and self-discovery: “[46:11]... the best thing you can get from reflection is understanding.”

• Nava Kavilan highlighted self-compassion and continual personal growth, noting that adolescence shapes but does not define one's entire life: “[46:19]... you are this 12-year-old version of yourself, but you are also continually evolving.”

• Penn Badgley echoed the sentiment that coming of age is a lifelong process, freeing individuals to keep discovering and developing: “[46:58]... coming of age is a lifelong process... it's freeing to understand that you just keep discovering things about yourself.”

The conversation encouraged listeners to reflect on their past experiences for personal growth and to approach current challenges with empathy and understanding.

Audience Questions and Responses The live session included interactive segments where audience-submitted questions were addressed:

1. Healing the 13-Year-Old Self:

   • Question: “I'm 31, but sometimes I feel my 13-year-old self comes through in the form of insecurities. How can I heal my 13-year-old self and, by extension, my adult self?”
   • Responses:
     • Sophie Ansari: Emphasized understanding and mercy as essential for healing: “[52:25]... understanding is everything. It can bring peace.”
     • Nava Kavilan: Highlighted self-compassion and the ongoing nature of personal development: “[46:19]... you're never fully formed and can continue making new choices.”

2. Advice on Reflecting on Adolescent Hardships:

   • Sophie Ansari: Advocated for understanding to gain relief and empathy: “[46:11]... understanding of your own experience... empathy for younger friends.”
   • Nava Kavilan: Encouraged self-compassion and recognizing one’s ability to make new choices: “[46:19]... you're still on a path and can take right turns.”

Expanding the Scope of Podcrushed Participants discussed how Podcrushed evolved from focusing solely on middle school experiences to addressing more mature and complex topics:

• Sophie Ansari: Explained the practical need to expand guest profiles and topics to attract a wider audience: “[40:35]... no one would come on the show if we only focused on adolescence.”

• Nava Kavilan: Mentioned enhanced research capabilities allowing for more in-depth and unique questions, leading to richer conversations with high-profile guests like Ariana Grande and Eddie Redmayne: “[42:55]... with better research, you can ask more interesting questions.”

This evolution ensures that the podcast remains relevant and continues to engage listeners by connecting adolescent experiences with adult lives.

Notable Interviews and Moments The hosts shared memorable interactions with guests who deeply connected with their adolescent narratives:

• Ariana Grande: Described as an incredible and generous guest who spent four hours on the show, engaging deeply in conversations beyond typical press topics: “[43:18]... Ariana spent four hours with us... she was so genuinely wonderful.”

• Eddie Redmayne: Appreciated for his willingness to delve into his early life without being confined strictly to discussing his projects: “[44:54]... he was so into the early life conversation and fascinated by middle school topics.”

These interviews exemplify Podcrushed's ability to bridge personal adolescent experiences with the broader narratives of prominent cultural figures.

Book Announcement: "Kruschmore" During the event, the hosts announced their forthcoming book, "Kruschmore," a collection of essays exploring love, loss, and coming of age:

• Nava Kavilan: Shared emotional insights about writing the book, including personal losses and realizations about ongoing personal growth: “[48:09]... writing the book made me realize that things hard for me now were also hard then, and it's okay to still be working through them.”

• Sophie Ansari: Emphasized understanding as the book’s central theme, discussing how it helps in processing trauma and finding peace through self-awareness: “[49:10]... understanding is the first gift to the human mind and soul... it can bring everything.”

The book release is scheduled for October 7th, promising readers a deep dive into the transformative experiences of adolescence and their lasting impacts.

Closing Remarks and Final Q&A In the final segment, the hosts engaged in a rapid-fire style Q&A, addressing topics such as the current dating environment in New York:

• Sophie Ansari humorously labeled the dating scene as “trash,” while Nava Kavilan and Penn Badgley shared personal anecdotes about their relationships and offered advice on seeking meaningful connections:

  • Nava Kavilan: Suggested looking for meaningful relationships among people you already know: “[59:02]... sometimes there is a diamond in the rough or someone you never considered.”

  • Penn Badgley: Encouraged sharing one’s feelings openly: “[29:12]... I think everyone, when they leave here, should tell someone they have a crush on them.”

The hosts wrapped up the live session by reiterating the importance of understanding and reflecting on adolescent experiences, connecting them to adult lives, and promoting their book, "Kruschmore."

Conclusion This live episode of Podcrushed offered an intimate exploration of middle school experiences and their profound impact on personal development. Through nostalgic reflections, heartfelt discussions, and insightful audience interactions, the hosts and Anna Martin provided listeners with valuable perspectives on navigating adolescence and its lingering effects into adulthood. The episode seamlessly blended personal anecdotes with broader societal reflections, reinforcing the podcast's mission to make middle school stories relatable and meaningful for all ages.

Notable Quotes:

• Sophie Ansari ([05:27]): “I was a quiet, very shy kid in the Pacific Northwest discovering a love for R&B music.”
• Nava Kavilan ([09:02]): “I couldn't find a similar podcast, so I decided to create one.”
• Penn Badgley ([27:20]): “Why do you think we should take crushes seriously and not discount them as frivolous?”
• Sophie Ansari ([31:03]): “Your feelings are always valid... but it's a complete fantasy that life won't be okay without this person.”
• Nava Kavilan ([46:19]): “You are this 12-year-old version of yourself, but you are also continually evolving.”
• Sophie Ansari ([49:10]): “Understanding is the first gift to the human mind and soul... it can bring everything.”

Transcript

[Lena Waithe]

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[Penn Badgley]

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[Penn Badgley]

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[Lena Waithe]

Bonus content from shows like Wiser Than.

[Penn Badgley]

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[Nava Kavilan]

It's a great way to support the.

[Penn Badgley]

Work we do and treat yourself to.

[Lena Waithe]

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[Penn Badgley]

Just head to any Lemonada show, feed.

[Lena Waithe]

On Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Hey, it's Lena Waithe Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the.

[Sophie Ansari]

Way for so many of us this season.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm sitting down with icons like Phylicia Rashad, Loretta Devine, Ava DuVernay and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process and the legacies they're building every single day.

[Sophie Ansari]

Come be a part of the conversation.

[Lena Waithe]

Season two drops July 29th. Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast or watch us on YouTube.

[Nava Kavilan]

Lemonade.

[Taj Greenlee]

Hello and welcome everyone. Weird the lights are still up. I'm Taj Greenlee, Senior Director of 9 Twin Y's Reconnatti Kaplan Talks. It's my pleasure to welcome you to Budweiser hall at the Arnhold center at the 92nd Street Y, New York. We're excited for tonight's Collective by 9 to NY event. Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari in conversation with New York Times Modern Love host Anna Martin. Podcrushed that's a nice place to clap. It is a joy to bring the intimacy and charm of the hit podcast podcrushed to our stage this evening, exploring the tender and turbulent terrain of adolescence and its lasting impact on our lives. Proud podcrush asks, who were our first crushes? How did family dynamics help shape identity? And what were those moments that shook out social anxieties? These conversations are with many of your favorite cultural figures, artists, writers and creatives of all style like Michelle Buteau, Eddie Redmayne, Adam Brody and Taylor Tomlinson, to name a few. We're thrilled to have Anna Martin of the New York Times Modern Love Podcast as their conversation partner this evening. Yes, give her some love, too. A few quick bits of housekeeping. We ask that you please don't video record this. And no flash photography. We don't want to disturb our guests on stage or our fellow patrons. We also will collect your audience questions on index cards before our time ends, please write clearly, include your first name, and try to stay on topic. Also, join us for upcoming events like Tina Fey and Will Forte for their new Netflix comedy series the Four Seasons. Jonathan Groff as he brings the songs of Bobby Darin to Broadway and Nick Jonas on his new Broadway show the Last Five Years. For more information about our events, please follow us on Instagram @92nd Street Y. As always, we appreciate your support and your time coming out to our events. And now, please join me in giving a very warm welcome to the co hosts of PodCrushed and Anna Martin.

[Penn Badgley]

Hello. Hello. Hello.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hello.

[Penn Badgley]

I am so excited to be here with you all in these comfortable chairs.

[Sophie Ansari]

And can't figure out. I feel sorry. You know, when you're on, like, a talk show of any kind, you're always wondering what kind of chair it'll be in.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[Sophie Ansari]

This one is great.

[Penn Badgley]

This one is amazing. You heard it here first. The host of Pod Crushed. You all know, you probably listen. PodCrush centers on stories from adolescents from teenage years, specifically from middle school, although the scope of the show has expanded. We'll talk about that. But in the spirit of the show, I thought we would do a fun icebreaker, although that's a bit of an oxymoron. I would love for each of you to introduce yourself to our friends here and then introduce your middle school self. Okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

An intake of breath from the audience. Penn, do you want to go first?

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, okay. All right. So I'm Penn Badgerly. Hello. Sure. Applause. Sure. Pause for applause. Thank you. In one standing. Is it an ovation if it's one person? Is it. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. I mean, that's fine. You're welcome to do what you please, but I didn't want to encourage you. Was that idolatry? I'm not sure. What am I doing? I'm introducing my middle school self. Okay. Well, I was. I was. I might have been 10 when I started middle school, which is a little bit young. Yeah, Just, you know, short, little chubby kid in the Pacific Northwest who was very, very, very, very quiet. Very, very shy, but discovering a love for. Am I supposed to be doing this in first person? Like.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes, yes. Any person you want.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I love acting. What were you. I love R B music. I loved R and B music that was like the. Like, Drew Hill and Black street were the two bands who. I mean, they. They really. I knew every sound on those records. Let's see, that's. Yeah, I loved music. I was discovering performing Very, very shy. I was doing community theater, and so, you know, this. I would move to Hollywood by the time I. Before I would finish middle school. Wow. And then that was. That's a different. That's 12. That's actually 12.

[Penn Badgley]

That's 12. So we're gonna cut it off right there. Sophie, please.

[F]

Hi, I'm Sofi Ansari, and I obviously co host with these two lovely friends.

[Nava Kavilan]

Another bow, please.

[Sophie Ansari]

You got it. Actually, you did. You're consistent, so that's good. I now support.

[F]

You know, in middle school, you are asked to come up with an adjective that starts with the same letter as your name.

[Penn Badgley]

A classic.

[F]

Not a great icebreaker, honestly. But my, like, go to was Silly Sophie.

[Penn Badgley]

Silly Sophie. That works.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, yeah. You don't think I'm silly?

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, no. I mean, I don't know. Especially. Did you. Did you always go silly?

[Nava Kavilan]

You know, maybe not the hands, but.

[F]

Yeah, the elongated silly.

[Penn Badgley]

It works.

[F]

No, but yeah. When I think about my middle school self, I honestly, like, the first thing that comes to mind is, like, a very specific body posture and weird voices. And I had a silliness that I think I'm always trying to get back to.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And the body posture was this kind of crouched thing. You're doing.

[F]

Yes. I mean, I could get up and do it, but I won't.

[Penn Badgley]

Maybe at the end of the show. Okay. Beautiful. Silly Sophie.

[F]

Encore.

[Penn Badgley]

Encore. Nava.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hi, I'm Nava.

[Penn Badgley]

Nava.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, thank you. At 12 years old, I had just discovered the Spice Girls. They were, like, hot on the scene.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my gosh.

[Nava Kavilan]

Loved them. I was in love with my best friend who was in love with my best friend, and I would give advice about how to land. It was good advice. I was not sabotaging him, but, yes, I was sort of, like, in the middle of, like, fighting my feelings and giving him, like, really genuine advice. But they would never get together, and he and I would never get together. So there's this endless loop. And then in the summer, I think of 12 years old, I went to asthma camp. So maybe a clue as to why.

[F]

My favorite fact about that.

[Sophie Ansari]

I forgot about this. First of all, that's a thing.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And then you went. I forgot.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. I did spend a summer at asthma camp for kids with asthma.

[Penn Badgley]

Can I ask, we won't dive too deep because it could take all 45 minutes. What do you do at asthma camp?

[Nava Kavilan]

It's a sports camp for kids with asthma. Whatever it is, it is really a sports camp to just expand your lung capacity so that you can have, like, you can go further and further in sports. That's wonderful.

[Penn Badgley]

And now you regret making fun of it because it's a wonderful mission.

[F]

No, no, it's still funny.

[Penn Badgley]

It's pretty funny. It actually is still funny. It's still funny. I love it. Perfect way. Great icebreaker, right?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, Great. Let's have at it.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's talk more about Pod Crush. Can you briefly tell me the sort of origin story of the show?

[Sophie Ansari]

You point at me, but, I mean, the real origin story starts with Nava.

[Nava Kavilan]

So in 2020, there was a global pandemic, some of you might remember, and we were looking for hope, I think a lot of us, and looking for reasons to laugh and feel uplifted. And I had listened to, like, a piece of media where this girl was reading out of her middle school diary, and it was so funny, and the stories she was telling were so relatable, and. And I started looking. I wanted to just listen to a podcast of people's middle school stories. So I started searching for that. I was like, oh, okay. I just want to hear more and more stories like these. And I couldn't find one. And I was like, wait, someone should make a podcast that's just people reading from their middle school diary, because this is so funny. This is, like, hilarious. This girl's extreme drama and angst. And when I couldn't find one, I was like, we should make one. And I approached Penn, and I had just started a production company together, but I didn't approach him first. I approached Sophie first. She and I had nothing together, but I was like, what do you call Sophie? She was a middle school teacher. She was artistic. I pitched her the idea first. Yeah, silly Sophie. And then I called Pen to run it by him, and he was like, maybe I could be part of it. And I was like, yeah, maybe you could be part of it. Yeah, that might be okay. And that's sort of like, the origin of it.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. I mean, from what. So, first of all, some of the context you're leaving out is that you. I mean, how much did your experience as a middle school administrator?

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, yeah. I had been a middle school teacher and administrator, and I also remembered how crazy middle schoolers were and how fun they were. And it's sort of like that time of life where you're advanced enough that you can do wild things, but your brain isn't developed enough to prevent you from doing those wild things. It's just this, like, unique time in life.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally. Let's talk more about that. Middle school is a Time many people would love to ignore. Right. Pretend never happened. What is it about that particular slice of someone's experience that's so rich for you all to dig into?

[Sophie Ansari]

Keep looking at me. Okay, well, I mean, so like chemically, biologically speaking, there's a lot that the sciences can provide us that backs up this notion. Because I think things are happening in your body and your brain that are, they're essentially never happening. They don't happen before, they don't happen again. There's, you know, a lot of plasticity in the brain. There's also a lot of plasticity in the brain when you're like an infant and toddler and stuff like that. But it's a really plastic time, neurologically speaking. So obviously, like just your ability to see the world, you think about it, you enter adolescence and you're a child. And then when adolescence is over, you're an adult. A child cannot possibly understand or conceive of or perceive what it really is to be an adult. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, you think of just, you think of even like sexuality alone. That's not, you know, there's a reason it's inappropriate to discuss it past a certain point with children because they just, they just can't conceive of it yet, you know, and that's fine. So I think similarly, we tend to focus on that in adolescence, but there's actually quite a lot more happening. There's, you know, you think of like morality, spirituality, the way you're gonna see the world politically, the way you're going to approach education, which at a more meaningful level just means like, how you're going to be thinking for the rest of your life, how you're going to be processing like everything you encounter. You know what I mean? So I just feel like there's actually, there's nothing that's not happening except for anything maybe concrete. You know, it's like it's all just moving. It's changing. You can't tell how quickly it's changing. A year is a lifetime. I mean, when you're 12, a 13 year old is so much cooler and older. And when you're 14, a 12 year old is a child. And when you're 16, a 13 year old seems pretty young. When you're 17, it's like a 12 year old, like that's a baby, you know what I mean? And this all just happened in about four to five years.

[Penn Badgley]

Absolutely.

[Sophie Ansari]

And then by the time you're 19, you feel like you're an adult and you're a baby. Sorry. If anybody here is 19, I'd imagine at least somebody here is 19, if we know our demographic. But, you know, it really is just a period of just immense transformation.

[F]

Also, it's a time when you're being opened up suddenly to so many more forces in the world. Like when you're a child, you're mostly influenced by your parents and they're kind of controlling what is influencing you. And then as you enter middle school, you gain more independence. You're spending more and more time with your peers. And now, like, you're on social media and I feel like.

[Sophie Ansari]

Which is great for kids.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We recommend it.

[Penn Badgley]

Follow podcast.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's not having anything but good effects. Sorry, podcast.

[F]

But it's such a tender time and they're being shaped, really. And so I think that was part of the reason we felt it was important to focus in on this time and tell stories about it and use it as a tool for reflection and think about how you've been. How you've been shaped by your middle school experiences. And also we thought maybe, originally we thought maybe some middle schoolers might listen. It's sort of evolved since then, but, yeah, originally we kind of wanted to make it, like, for middle schoolers. For middle schoolers.

[Nava Kavilan]

Did middle schoolers listen? Predominantly Penn's fan base, which is like 18 plus.

[Penn Badgley]

Gotcha. Okay. So not 12 years old. Yeah, yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

We have some middle schoolers who listen, but not.

[Penn Badgley]

And shout out to them. On the show, you ask about sort of classic teenage milestones. Like, we're beginning to talk about first crushes, heartbreak. And I feel like that is.

[Sophie Ansari]

Sorry, I just exhaled deeply into the elements.

[Penn Badgley]

They stop exhaling. If you could refrain from breathing. Stop. Tap, tap.

[Nava Kavilan]

They're loving that.

[Sophie Ansari]

All right. I just gotta be conscious of that.

[Nava Kavilan]

Ok.

[Penn Badgley]

And I think this crush talk is so. It's such a smart way of cutting to the quick with someone. It really is. Because it's like you jump immediately into this intimate conversation about the sweet and the embarrassing and the vulnerable parts of someone that we often hide as an adult. I know you do this on the show, but I would love to do it again. Can one of you share a story of a crush from your middle school years? You already did, so you're safe. Can one of the two of you share a story about a crush and how it shaped you?

[Sophie Ansari]

Mm.

[F]

I can't help.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Why just one of us?

[F]

Okay, sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, this isn't necessarily a first crush, but I Do remember it shaped me, this experience. It was someone who had been chasing me. I wasn't interested. And then we ended up getting together. But I. I was at a point in my life where I wasn't talking to any of the adults in my life really about those feelings.

[Nava Kavilan]

Sure.

[F]

And I would talk to my parents about a lot of things. But I had. It was like post middle school, early high school. I wasn't. I had decided, no more. This is my life now. And my family went on a trip with another family. And I was sharing a room. We kind of like drew straws. And I was sharing a room with an older girl. She was in her 20s, in college, and I was 16. I felt I was so embarrassed. I remember taking my mom, taking my.

[Penn Badgley]

Sister, like, please, why don't you stay with me?

[F]

I don't want to stay with her.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm so nervous.

[Penn Badgley]

Because you were nervous around To Pen's point, 20 years old felt like the oldest age you could be.

[F]

Oh my God, she was so cool. And what would we have to talk about? And she would certainly see me plucking my lip hairs in the mirror or something. I don't know. I was so nervous. And as soon as we got into our room, she was like, so let's talk about boys. And I melted. And I told her everything. Things I wouldn't tell my parents. It turns, she ended up becoming my sister in law.

[Penn Badgley]

They were just family friend.

[F]

No, no, no. She married my brother.

[Penn Badgley]

That's how that works. Hard to do that on the fly.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[F]

And I just feel like I have realized now how important it is for that age group, teens, tweens, to have adults in their life or just older people who they can talk to and who feel. Who are not judging them or it seems like they're not judging them. I think Millie, my sister in law, ended up talking to my parents about.

[Nava Kavilan]

What I told her.

[Penn Badgley]

No, that's just. That's violating the code.

[Sophie Ansari]

In time. You said in time. Yeah. Like after she married your brother. And she was like, listen, guys, so I gotta tell you something.

[F]

This is something to worry about.

[Sophie Ansari]

Gotta say about something, you know, Silly Sophie.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, yeah, well, we got some other.

[F]

No, but yeah, I feel like that shaped me when I became. Because I became a fifth grade teacher. I feel like that was something I always had in mind. It's a delicate balance with young people. You don't want to alienate them. You don't want to put them in a position where they're like, oh, great, so now I know you're not someone I'm gonna talk to.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. First crush.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, right. Well, let's see. I don't have. The interesting thing about me with this, the way that I approach it is, for some reason, probably because I moved to LA when I was 12. And I should also give a shout out to my mother, who is here.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yay.

[F]

Give us a shout.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm not gonna point her out, but, I mean, to be honest, you might be able to guess who she is.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. Incredible.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I mention that now because I was having a lot of formative experiences at the time that were, like. We've since talked about, but it is interesting to talk about them with my mother here. I think I went from being extremely, exceedingly shy. And then also, like I said, I had gotten. I mean, this happens to so many people, but whatever. I was chubby. I became chubby in approaching adolescence. Like, 8, 9, 10. And as I was doing that, I was also kind of getting into this idea of acting. And it was, you know, people telling me about this idea that, you know, you're good. You should do this. It may, like, maybe, you know. So I think. I think very, very early on, something was already happening. Some kind of process had already started where I was. I don't recall a lot of, like, oh, just getting to kind of, like, have this time of crushes and awkwardness. And I was working by the time I was 12.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like, literally, I was working professionally by the time I was 12 and enjoying that. Loving that, actually. And in some ways, having all of these incredible, expansive experiences that most people that age are not getting to have, that I think benefited me. But then there's other things, like this part, the crush, which turns into the sexuality part, which was being. It was just changed. It was changing. And so I went from being an extremely quiet, shy. Like, asked one girl out once and she said no. And I was like, okay, well, then never again. That's it. You know. And then. And then suddenly I'm like, you know, living in LA and going out for roles where it's like, you know, oh, I read one where it's like, there's a kiss. And I'm like, whoa. And I actually, you know, I know a lot of people who had their first kiss on camera.

[Penn Badgley]

Mm.

[Sophie Ansari]

You know what I mean? And getting paid for it, no less. So there's just all kinds of. So, yeah, you thought it, I didn't. So, you know, it's funny, the way that I intersect with this whole concept is like, I just. Somehow it was never as much Fun as it could have been, should have been, would have been.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And then, you know, very early on it was just like there was a gravity to it. There was a change that was happening. The idea that I needed to exhibit a certain kind of masculinity and sexuality and stuff just I really saw early on. And we're talking late 90s Brad Pitt, fight Club era. So anyway, boy was just like, okay, well, that's it. That's it for us. If I don't look like that, then, you know, maybe not everybody felt that way, but I think anybody who might have been in the realm of living in Hollywood might have felt that way. So my memory of crushes, it just, it's just, it's loaded. It kind of, it went from this 0 to 100 real fast.

[F]

And we'll be right back.

[G]

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[Sophie Ansari]

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[Penn Badgley]

But this is why I think it's so smart, the conversations you have on your show. Because asking a kind of simple seeming question like, what's an early crush? What can you tell me about that? It reflects so much more and I guess I want to follow up and just say, like, why do you think we should take crushes seriously and not discount them as frivolous? What kind of mirror do they hold up to us? What do they reveal? This can be for anyone.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's a good question.

[Penn Badgley]

Something I like about you all too is you take the time to think, which is very in silence, which I love.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, I think they're not frivolous. I mean, feelings are feelings and feelings that bring joy, like more. Right? Like crushes are so fun and yummy, especially when they don't. I love that word. So I think that's great. A crush tells you something about the person who's experiencing it and what they value in terms of who they like. It also tells you something about the society they live in. Sort of like who the society tells you is valuable.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[Nava Kavilan]

So I think a crush is very revealing about a person and a time and a place and a particular moment. And I think it also like young crushes or what happens to you at like 12, 13, 14. You can start to write a social script or like a script for yourself that can actually, you can be operating from that script really late into life. Sometimes people have to do a lot of work to stop operating from that script.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[Nava Kavilan]

So actually it can be really helpful to go back and Say, what is the early script that I wrote and am I still operating from that script? And how can we write a new one?

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[Nava Kavilan]

So I think, even for ourselves, to not dismiss the early experiences we had and not just think of them as like, that was silly or that was frivolous or that was meaningless, because you'll probably find that it was really important and that it was shaping you and that it was formative. Like they say, it was truly a formative experience. So what does it mean that it was formative? What does it mean that it literally formed you and wired you and that you have your neural pathways that are going in a particular way? And what does it mean if you have to try to rewire them? What's the work that that requires?

[Penn Badgley]

You are making the case for crushes, And I'm fully honest.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yes, that is crush.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, I think everyone, when they leave here, should tell someone they have a crush on them. How about that?

[Nava Kavilan]

Let's all make a pact tonight.

[Sophie Ansari]

Totally.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's all do it. Pinky, what about. Do you have any thoughts on why crushes are important, or did she discover it?

[F]

We call Nava the Summarizer on the podcast. She's just like, to the point. Not just to the point. She's not being superficial. She's going deep. But she says it so well.

[Penn Badgley]

You say it so well. You really do.

[Sophie Ansari]

I mean, that is the crux of it, I think. It's the. Well, first of all, even the concept of a social script, we talk about things being socially constructed. Well, if something is socially constructed, then we all play a role in that. You uphold it socially by, again, this idea that who you're even attracted to has a. A large part of it. I don't know that I would call it a majority. I don't know what the. What the piece of the pie is, but, you know, who you're attracted to is hugely shaped by social teachings. You know, social. Just practices and mores and norms. Like, I'm remembering just how, you know, from a young boy's perspective who was so shy, asked one girl out and was told no, and just like, yep, never doing that ever again. You know, it just was like, why did all the girls have a crush on, like, the same three dudes?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Yeah. You're still mad about that.

[Sophie Ansari]

And see, we get one man laughing. He's like, yeah, bro, I can't tell.

[Penn Badgley]

If he was one of the three dudes. Exactly.

[Sophie Ansari]

That laugh sounded like he was not. And neither was I. Neither was I.

[Penn Badgley]

That's so.

[Sophie Ansari]

So Like, I don't know what. And like, they're always named, like, Drew or something, you know, like, at least in my case, it was, you know, it's like Drew Jordan. Like, I don't know.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's not name names for me.

[Sophie Ansari]

And even what I have heard people say, as they've grown older, they're like, yeah, they were always, like, the most. Sometimes there's this, like, super average dude who everybody loves.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And you know, what's going on there?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And fine, great. Give him his flowers. Happy for him.

[F]

Now, you know, where did he end up?

[Nava Kavilan]

I want to know.

[Penn Badgley]

But who's the one on stage? Right.

[Sophie Ansari]

I mean, honestly, there is a lot of. Because also at this age, it's the first time that you're ostensibly, like, you're going out into the world and, like, perpetuating it or creating something a little bit different or, you know, any mix between these two things. So, yeah, the notion of a social script is really what draws us. And it's funny, we've been talking about this for years. I don't know, Nevaeh, that you've ever used that particular phrase. And we're. Yeah, but that is. That is essentially. That is essentially it. It's like it's a crush. Oh. And then the other thing I think that you mentioned that I want to underscore is feelings are real. You know, I mean, I often make jokes to belittle, like, a crush, because.

[Nava Kavilan]

I thought, I'm gonna say me and Sophie.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, well, yeah, them too. Yeah. But I think the term crush has so many frivolous implications. Whereas your feelings, first of all, are always valid, it doesn't mean that they're based in fact, and it doesn't mean that you're entitled to behave however you want based on your feelings, but your feelings are your feelings. Your feelings are actually the one. As I understand it, your feelings are the one part of you, and you can't control them. You know, you can't. You can control what your body does somewhat. You can't control how you feel. You. You can respond to your feelings. You can manage how you behave according to your feelings. So, you know. So your feelings, you know, my memory of the crushes that I did have, they were so strong. They were so, so, so strong. And they came from a desire to be loved and accepted and held in a way that is not only at all sexual, but it's, of course, the only box we have to put that in in the beginning. So you're actually putting so many feelings, and then Attaching it to this thing that you've also never experienced. And so it's just very confusing, you know, when really what you want is you want something that is. It transcends the body. You want a commitment. You want. I think that's. I mean, if we're really calling it what it is, the feeling that you. That you want from the person that you desire is you want something that, like, that makes life meaningful. You want it to everything to be okay. You know, you have this feeling when you're, like, lovesick that it won't be okay unless I am with this person. And by the way, that's a complete fantasy. Like, it's just never true. I mean, maybe you'll have something that you can continue, blah, blah, blah. But I mean, you know, so, yeah, there's really no end to the depth, I think.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[F]

I would actually say I agree with what you guys are saying.

[Sophie Ansari]

She's gonna disagree.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Right on stage.

[F]

But I also am like, are they that, like, they can be and they feel so big?

[Nava Kavilan]

Sure.

[F]

But then I think also maybe when we look back on them or even when we're helping youngsters through them, we can try to remind them sometimes, like, it's totally normal for you to feel like this is so big and so major, but you will. Like, this is totally normal for you to feel this way. And it's actually, you're gonna feel this way many, many, many, many times. And it's not the end of the world. Like, it doesn't have to be that deep, actually.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You're bringing up this intensity of feeling everything when you're this age feels completely overwhelming. End of the world, end of your life. How do you balance, like, giving someone that age perspective but also not invalidating their feelings? How do you think about that?

[Nava Kavilan]

Well. Cause I think that also depends. Like, I had like, one crush all of. So it was probably more than a class.

[Penn Badgley]

No, only one.

[Nava Kavilan]

All of high school. Like, the same boy. The one that like 7 through 12th grade. So it wasn't like, you're gonna have it again and again. It was like the same. Yeah, but you had many.

[F]

Yes.

[Nava Kavilan]

So I think it really depends. But yeah, I think it's like listening to people and I think Leighton Meester, like our pilot guest talked about it. She sort of started on the. From what I recall, that was like 100 episodes ago. It started on like, you know, it's not that big of a deal. And then she was like, but you have to validate what they're saying. And I feel like that's always the push pull of life. It's like you want to listen to someone and then everything we go through is like it's a wave. And whatever wave we're in, we're writing it and it can feel like the biggest thing. And at some point that that wave is gonna bring us to shore and then we'll have to write another one. But.

[Penn Badgley]

And that's why it's so fascinating to read back a diary, for example, to the genesis of the show, because you read these dances. I mean, I have this experience like reading a diary from middle school, high school and being like, who is this person that I'm talking about? You know what I mean? Like, it feels so intense, but I can't even recall who they are. So it does pass and we're reminded of our past selves. And that past intensity when we read a, a diary or something like that.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, it makes me think that, like, you know, you're, you're not necessarily having these feelings in response to a person. I mean, so sometimes you often are. They're a configuration of attributes, you know, their character, their body, all these things that it comes together and it's like, okay, so this is eliciting in me a response, but actually all these feelings are in me in a sense, you know what I mean? So that's the way I think about validating it. But then putting in perspective, it's like, look, it's actually not statistically true that you're only ever going to find one person. That's just. First of all, it's not going to happen. I'm sorry, 13 year old. Unless you're going to get married. I don't know. But it just feels to me like so there is some perspective, right? But then the validation of the feelings is like, yeah, they're. Thank God that you can feel this much, even this young. I mean, what would you be if you weren't having these strong feelings? You know? And also we talk about like social norms and stuff. I'm thinking about, you know, the way boys are. They don't have to be taught this. We learn this from everything. From the air, from the water, from movies, from whatever. And then we do learn it from, you know, older men. Those, the power of those feelings. You know, we talk about men wanting to be, or needing to be more sensitive. I mean, I think the problem is that they're extremely sensitive. But then they learn that they're not meant to be and so they start bottling up these feelings and then you end up With a voice like this, you're just like, what? What do you mean? What do you mean? Like, what do you know? I mean, that's like. I have that too. But then I've been working with that social script for a while, you know, as we were saying, like unpacking and trying to rewrite that. But there was a time when I was like 18, 19, 20. I mean, I put my voice.

[Nava Kavilan]

You're kidding.

[Sophie Ansari]

I mean, I wasn't like, I wasn't.

[Nava Kavilan]

Literally like a different voice like you.

[Sophie Ansari]

But I mean, I mean, such a shame. You guys see those sideburns? Early Gossip Girl. What is that but masking. What is that but a boy being like, finally, I can grow hair on the side of my face.

[F]

Was that your choice?

[Sophie Ansari]

Who would choose that?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Only somebody. Only somebody who could not with their own eyes, in real time, see the side of that face, choose to do that to a face. Everyone else on the planet could look at me like this and be like, no, I could never do it. I could see a picture. But, you know, you look at pictures and you're creating a fantasy. You're not seeing what. You're not seeing what other people see. If I could have ever seen my own head, I would have been like.

[Nava Kavilan]

Come here, come here, come here.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's okay. You don't have to prove anything to anybody.

[Penn Badgley]

You're already a man.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, you're already a man.

[Penn Badgley]

Sideburn talk. I had no idea it would go there. But there's so much in the power of that strip of hair.

[Sophie Ansari]

It had a bell bottom flare. I mean, it was so wide.

[Penn Badgley]

It looked okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[F]

Okay, so Google a picture.

[Sophie Ansari]

Some of them.

[Nava Kavilan]

Some of them.

[Sophie Ansari]

Of them are.

[Penn Badgley]

They're really bad.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. I mean, so some era. They were not. And like, I don't know, you're probably not much of a Gossip Girl fan.

[Penn Badgley]

I take it that's profiling. But not really.

[Sophie Ansari]

But no but, no but no.

[Penn Badgley]

Never seen an episode, but admire you and admire your work.

[Nava Kavilan]

Did you say never seen an episode?

[Penn Badgley]

Never seen a single one.

[Sophie Ansari]

Great. Love it.

[Penn Badgley]

That's why we came back. We are quickly running out of time. So just a few. I want to see where I want to go. The show started by being very sort of specifically about these middle school stories. But as you've continued making it, you've expanded the scope so much and you're now tackling what I would consider to be like, quite adult death. Yes, a lot, actually. Totally. Yeah. No, yeah. And marriage and long term relationships and having kids. Can you talk about why you wanted to expand. Like, why did you want Pod Crush to grow up?

[Sophie Ansari]

No one would come on the show. I mean, no, that's not. It's so practically speaking, you know, the boring answer is, like, you just want more guests to come on. They're promoting. So in the beginning, we were just sort of like, using my connections. For the first four guests, that's about how many connections I had. Five, maybe eight, including my wife. Not her as a guest. She was a guest, but the people she would connect. We just. In the beginning, we were not getting people on a press tour, and they were kind of down, you know what I mean? And then what we noticed is sometimes you get people on a press tour, actually. And now most of the time, because we're like a proper podcast. We're doing really well.

[F]

Don't check the charts.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, doing. We're soaring. You know, you have to abide by the. By the. By the thing. You have to. You can't just talk about adolescence. They're like, what am I gonna do that for? So naturally, we did have to expand. But then also, I think other things that you guys can answer.

[F]

Yeah, I mean, I think, like we've said many times, these experiences in middle school are like, we're still having them as adults. And I think it's interesting to connect the dots with those guests and to see actually the guests connect those dots in real time sometimes in the episode, like, huh, wow. Why is this all coming back to 12? Like, every question you're asking me, I'm like, I can think of an experience from when I was exactly 12 years old that explains why I'm doing this as an adult, why I'm stuck in this pattern or whatever it is. So I think they're so intimately connected, it's not really possible to disentangle them.

[Nava Kavilan]

I also think we've gotten better at researching. So with better research, you learn more about people and then you can ask them more interesting questions. So I think at the beginning, it was just sort of like we were all new at what we were doing, so even the research aspect was new. So it was a little bit more like, oh, we're just going to ask them all the same sort of standard questions. But then it was like, no, let's actually get to know this person. And then somebody was like, actually, I really like. For instance, when we had Ariana Grande, it was like, she's done so many interviews, I want to ask her something no one has ever asked her.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes.

[Nava Kavilan]

She was like, okay, well, I have to listen to Every interview she's ever done.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[Nava Kavilan]

And then ask her something no one's ever asked her. And I think we do. We asked her a few things no one had ever asked her. And sort of like bringing that through to other guests. So then when you research them a lot, you're able to ask them things that are interesting.

[Penn Badgley]

I was going to say, could you share maybe a favorite moment so we can all go and listen back of that happening with either Ariana or another guest? Like a moment where you saw them actively connect these dots.

[Sophie Ansari]

I can recall so many guests just saying, like, wow. Yeah. Like, I haven't thought about this in so long. Sometimes they say right at the beginning and it's like, well, you got a.

[Penn Badgley]

Long way to go about this show.

[Sophie Ansari]

When you came on.

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't know if it was like a connect the dots, but one of my. I mean, Ariana Grande was just such an incredible interview and she was such a. I have shared this a lot, but she was so genuinely wonderful. She was so generous. I just want everyone to know this about her. Most of our guests give us 60 minutes for 90. Ariana spent four hours with us. She did not need to. She was just, like, down for anything. She didn't cut any questions. She let us ask her about, like, a sensitive time in her life. She didn't veto anything. She was just the loveliest human, like, genuinely.

[Sophie Ansari]

And didn't she post about it too?

[Nava Kavilan]

She kept. She promoted it more than any other guest we've had.

[Penn Badgley]

Incredible. Get her on my show.

[Nava Kavilan]

I am like a. I had left that interview like a Ariana Grande, like, super fan.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

I have, like, merch now. I'm just like, I wish. Of Ariana Grande. So that was definitely a favorite interview. But my other favorite interview was Eddie Redmayne. And Eddie Redmayne. I went into it knowing that I would love him, but was floored with the person that he is. And he was someone who was on a press tour, didn't know what our podcast was. I don't know why he said yes, but he did say yes. And he. I think at some point we were like, oh, my God, we have like 15 minutes left and we haven't asked you about any of your programs and you came here on a press story. He was like, I've got three Oscars. It's fine. He was like, okay, let's just keep talking about middle. And I was like, no, your publicist is gonna murder me. We actually have to move on to your projects. And we did, but it was like he was so into the early life conversation that he was down to not talk to. And out of respect for his pr, we did talk about his projects. But it was like so nice to see someone just like engrossed in the conversation, not knowing that that's what they were gonna come talk about.

[Penn Badgley]

That's really wonderful. Yeah.

[F]

I don't remember a specific moment, but I do remember, I think Elisabeth Moss had a moment like that where she went back and she kept thinking of new memories. And then recently Sophie Turner, I feel like as well, just a lot happened to her at Thatch.

[Sophie Ansari]

Sophie Thatcher.

[F]

Oh, sorry. Sophie Thatcher.

[Penn Badgley]

Four hours. That's so much time.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, she was incredible.

[Penn Badgley]

Look at her. All right, Transition from Ariana Grande. Ariana Grande to these audience questions. Thank you for submitting them. I'm just gonna hop in. How are we feeling? Ready to give some advice. What do you hope people get from reflecting on the hardships and trauma of adolescence? Great question.

[Sophie Ansari]

I suppose the best thing you can get from reflection is understanding. And then from understanding several things, I suppose relief both from maybe false and restrictive beliefs about yourself, but then also about others. And then you know, I know that understanding is a great one and then it kind of, it branches out from there. Branches out from there. Why don't you guys pick it up?

[F]

Understanding of your own experience. And then I would hope that someone might gain some empathy for younger friends.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

And also like you are, this is so obvious. But you, you are every version of yourself. You were the 12 year old version of yourself. So self compassion and life is so hard and so brutal and at that time in life a lot of things are out of our control. But that's the time when we're formed. So to have appreciation for that and it's okay if things happened that shaped you in a way that you wish you hadn't been shaped. And you can also. You're not fully formed. No matter how old you are, you're still on a path and you can continue on that path or you can take a right turn. You're in control of who you are and you can still make new choices.

[Penn Badgley]

That's a wonderful idea. I feel like y' all return to a lot which is that coming of age is a lifelong process. And it's so true. And it's quite freeing to understand that you just keep discovering things about yourself and working things out. I think this question, I speed read that, so I think it is related. This is from Arianna. I'm 31, but sometimes I feel my 13 year old self Comes through in the form of insecurities. How can I heal my 13 year old self and by extension my adult self? Wonderful question. Very relatable.

[F]

Gosh, I wish I knew because I texted my sister the entire time I was preparing for this. Like, do I like this in terms of my outfits? I'm struggling with the same thing. Ariana.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[F]

So I don't know.

[Nava Kavilan]

So we have written a collection of essays. We've written a book called Krushmore, a collection of essays on Love, Loss and coming of age, out October 7th. They've written a book and the book mostly focuses on our middle school experiences, but it does go into adulthood. And I cried so much writing my essays. I'm probably gonna cry right now, but it was like, I didn't expect to cry writing the ones. I mean, I wrote one, my mom passed away and I wrote one about that and I knew I was going to cry writing that one. It was like so difficult to write, difficult to edit, very predictable. But other ones were so hard to write. And I think what was really hard was the realization that things that are hard for me, oh my gosh. Things that are hard for me now were hard then. And to be like, oh my gosh, I haven't learned it yet. Wow. I was 12 and I'm this age. How could I still not have learned that lesson? And so I totally get that. But also to be like, well, it's not too late, I'm not dead, it's fine. I think we have these ideas. You had to accomplish it by this age or you're a failure. But you don't. You are a person, you are growing. And we're all in development and we're never fully formed.

[Penn Badgley]

Do you want to follow that?

[Sophie Ansari]

I always have to, right?

[Nava Kavilan]

He's like, I'm fully formed, though. He's like, so I don't know about.

[Penn Badgley]

You, but once you shaved the sideburns, it was off to the wrist.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, it's so true. I mean, in some ways, in writing the book, kind of my first essay, I started out just being like, yeah, I really feel still like that 12 year old in so many ways. I feel like it's hard to explain. You'll have to read the book.

[F]

Out October 7th.

[Sophie Ansari]

I mean, read it for. Can't you read books? No, you can't read it for free. Well, we'll have to figure that out for you. But it's not to just repeat what I've said. But I think to me the gift of understanding is sort of. It is the first in order of gifts to the human mind and heart and spirit and soul. Like understanding can do everything and anything. And so my completely armchair psych understanding of trauma, having read a fair amount about it, trying to understand it, you know, don't quote me here, but it has to do with, you know, an event doesn't have to be traumatic. Now, this is not to say, of course, if anyone's traumatized that it's an invalidation of that complete opposite. Something is traumatizing not just because of the nature and scale of the event, but because of the victim or the person being traumatized because of their understanding of what's happening or what they don't understand about what's happening. Ultimately, like, coming to terms with that is a process of understanding. And it's, you know, it's great and slow and incredible, but understanding kind of unlocks everything. You know, being able to understand why this one moment has stood out to you, that one moment where I felt humiliated, and then you might be like 43 or 63 or 83, and you're like, oh, huh. And, you know, it doesn't change everything. It doesn't solve maybe anything, but it does bring relief. And I do think that, like, so, you know, the person who asked this question, like, there's no way we could answer it specifically at all because you couldn't fit, like, all the things you're dealing with on that little card. And like, who are we to even, you know? But I do think that, like, I think what I heard Nava speaking to and Sophie speaking to was like, mercy and time. And then, and then eventually understanding can, can bring peace. I think it's the only thing that can. I really do think it's the only thing. One of the reasons relationships are nice is because they, they speed that process up, which is also why it's painful because you're like, I'm not ready to understand that part of me yet. You know, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's you. You know, but that is like, to me, understanding is everything. It really, it really, it really can bring everything.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you for those responses. Very, very beautiful.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stick around.

[Lena Waithe]

We'll be right back. Summer break is here.

[Penn Badgley]

Hallelujah.

[Lena Waithe]

And while kids are excited to hit pause on school, they deserve it. As a parent, you might be wondering how to keep their minds active without killing the summer vibe. Valid question. This is where IXL comes in. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that fits perfectly into your homeschool routine. Even during the summer. It offers interactive Practice across math, language arts, science and social studies. Adapting to your child's level to provide the right challenge at the right time. IXL helps kids stay curious, motivated and confident, even outside of the traditional classroom. IXL's interactive practice, step by step video tutorials and easy to navigate layout make it a natural fit for our summer homeschooling goals. IXL instantly grades work and explains mistakes, helping kids learn from them. Plus detailed reports give you a clear view of progress. As a former teacher and school administrator, I've seen firsthand how powerful personalized learning can be, which is exactly why I recommend IXL learning. Everyone learns at a different pace and personalized learning per student can be really challenging for teachers to offer in larger and larger classrooms. So sometimes parents do have to go that extra mile to to make an intervention, kind of find a way to personalize the learning for their kids themselves. And I do think that IXL is a really great option for that. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and podcast listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com podcrust Visit ixl.com podcrush to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So my dad and I are planning for a trip to Japan in the fall and I don't know if you know this about me. I may or may not be sometimes a little bit of a nerd, a little bit of an overachiever. So besides just watching some J dramas to, I was gonna say improve my Japanese as, as if there were like a foundation to improve upon, but there's from like zilch to something. What do you call that anyway, besides just doing that? And yes, I have already started watching some J dramas. I think I might, I think I might pick up some Rosetta Stone. You know, whether you're lounging poolside, hitting the beach, or relaxing at home, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to fit in a few minutes of language learning. It's a productive and fun way to make the most of your summer downtime. So why not get extra ready for my time in Japan with my dad? You know, Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning and it has been for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, whenever and wherever it fits in your summer schedule. I'm going to be sneaking in those lessons between poolside sessions, walks with Louie, you know, anywhere I can. What I'm really excited about is their true accent tool, that speech recognition technology that provides real time feedback, helping me sound natural. It's like having a personal language coach guiding my accent every step of the way. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now. Podcast listeners can grab Rosetta Stone lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com PodCrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com PodCrush and start learning today. Summer is in full swing and I am so excited to try on some of the new Quince pieces that I ordered. Because yes, when I want to upgrade my wardrobe, Quince is definitely one of the places I turn to. Their clothes are timeless, they feel luxurious, they look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just clicks. Quince has everything I need for summer, like 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Lux Swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. The best part is that everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. They work directly with top artisans and they cut out the middleman. This way they can give you luxury without the markup. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. This summer I decided to go red and I picked up a little red silk dress and a red swimsuit and I'm really excited to try them. I might wear them together.

[Nava Kavilan]

Together.

[Lena Waithe]

I might wear them on their own. Just have to check out my Instagram and find out. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com podcrush for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com podcrushed to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com podcrushed.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm gonna pivot it to a different question.

[Sophie Ansari]

Is that ice cream something lighter?

[Penn Badgley]

There are a lot of Dan Humphrey questions that I'm saving for, like rapid fire at the end.

[Sophie Ansari]

If you know me, I am incapable of a rapid fire.

[Nava Kavilan]

Really? Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Actually, I do not try. Okay, let's see. Let's try this one. What are your thoughts on the current dating environment, perhaps particularly in New York?

[Sophie Ansari]

Trash. Trash. Take it from a married man. Trash.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's perfect.

[Penn Badgley]

You're married. You're fully married.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, exactly.

[Penn Badgley]

Did any of you date in New York or were you No, I lived.

[F]

In New York and I was dating, but it was mostly long distance. So.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, I did a little bit. I'm gonna blame myself. I think I have a proclivity for wasting time, and that has followed me in every city. Cause I've been in every city that I've been in.

[Penn Badgley]

So, yeah. Do you want to elaborate on trash.

[Sophie Ansari]

Or you're just gonna. So you're being brave and bold and, like, okay, so that's your personal responsibility. But then, come on. Dating culture is absolute trash.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Also, let me be a bit more specific. I think it's full of lies and performances that don't even lead to meaningful friendship, let alone a romantic relationship.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, my bars.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally, totally.

[Nava Kavilan]

Will you just say something?

[F]

My advice is always look at the people you already know. I don't know. It's like, there might be some. That's what happened for me. And so I'm biased, but I feel like sometimes there is, like, a diamond in the rough or someone you never considered, and then you spend some time with them again.

[Penn Badgley]

And I was gonna say, as two people who've successfully escaped the dating pool are partnered, can you give us, like, a brief love story? How did you meet your partner? This is not a question on the card. It's a question from me.

[F]

Yeah, go ahead. Brief. We met as and nothing happened. Ships in the night and then again met. What I didn't know. That was. Within those two years, David, my husband, had had several dreams, and we didn't know each other. And he's not. He's really, like, pragmatic guy. He was having the dreams and thinking, like, this is annoying of you, of.

[Penn Badgley]

You, Dreams of you, of me.

[F]

Random ones. Like. Like, I was passing by in the grocery store. Anyway, we ended up crossing paths again, and we hit it off.

[Penn Badgley]

Did he say right off the bat, like, I've had three dreams about you?

[Nava Kavilan]

No, he did not tell me for a long time. He'd be like, great, because that would have been okay. Goodbye.

[F]

Yeah, that is really sweet, but, yeah, it was mystical. It was kind of like a divine thing. I feel like. Like sometimes I think, well, what if I had been traveling? What if this had happened and we hadn't met? And I feel like that actually did happen. We were. We did meet and nothing happened. And then we met again. So, yeah, I feel like you go, dreams, dreams.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. I'm just trying to figure. So I've never really dated, actually. I literally. I think I've been on one date, and it was just sort of like, it was Already made complicated by the fact that I was on Gossip Girl. And so it just felt like. And I think, truth be told, you know, I mean, she did know who I was, and it was just sort of like, so how are we gonna go about this? Acting like I'm Pen? Yeah, we need to go through this process. Like, if this is about hooking up, are we gonna do that? And it was. I'm not saying that. That's what I mean. I literally just was like, this feels like such a bizarre charade, you know, that I just felt like I didn't get to know that person at all. We didn't. You know, there was nothing there. You know, I've been in four relationships, and the fourth one was my wife, and they've all lasted longer than two years. And this isn't even. This is just. It's like the four women that I've been with, I meet, and it's just kind of immediate. It's impossible to explain. But what I've learned there is that you can have these incredible feelings, but there is a time limit on how long those feelings get you through a relationship. Then you have to learn what it is that actually gets you through a relationship. That's when you learn about your compatibilities and your incompatibilities and, you know. So when we met, we met through a mutual friend. I was very, very sick and did not want to be, like, going out or drinking or anything. It was the middle of January. I was headed home.

[F]

He carried all his belongings in a trash bag.

[Sophie Ansari]

I actually did his time in his life. Not with me, but I was saying in air, when Airbnb was very cheap.

[Nava Kavilan]

He was trying to land a Huck Fin roll. Yeah, it was in, like, a meta.

[Sophie Ansari]

All of my belongings were in a trash bag. And then it was a meta. A suitcase. And then what? I couldn't. In a trash bag. I had all of my stuff.

[Penn Badgley]

I feel like you could afford another suitcase, but. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, but, you know, I was just. I was just being. I was. You know, I was not thinking, we'll.

[Penn Badgley]

Move off the trash.

[Sophie Ansari]

I was not thinking rationally all the time, and I did not. Yeah. Mutual friend texted a friend who I, at that point, was even a bit suspicious of being like, I don't want to go to things. You're invited. I don't wanna. She was like, come out.

[Nava Kavilan]

Why?

[F]

Because she would set you up with people?

[Sophie Ansari]

No, because it was just. There was other stuff with. Yeah, there was others. It was just like, high school shenanigans. I was Just like, I don't wanna. Just that. And she invited me out. It was on the way home from this, from the train to the Airbnb. I was sleeping in. It was like. It was there. I was like, all right, I'll go by, say hi. I say hi. She's like, the moment I show up, she says, oh, it's cool. A few other people are gonna come meet me. I texted like 500 people so you can leave when they come. And I was like, great. And then she said. I asked, or maybe she told me. She's like, yep, my friend Domino is gonna come. And she said the name. And this sounds crazy because I was not the type of person to. If I thought it, why would I say it? But I said these words. I said, I think I could fall in love with that person.

[Penn Badgley]

No.

[Sophie Ansari]

What? Who? Like, that's not. That's crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

Trash bag of the hand I think I could fall in love with.

[F]

And then Domino sounds like she'd have.

[Nava Kavilan]

A place for me to stay.

[Sophie Ansari]

She did actually, that night try to help me find an apartment and then offered me to stay. Offered for me to stay in her extra room. And because of that, and she was sending me pictures of her son. She had a five year old, he just turned five the day before. I was just like, oh, there's no way. She's showing pictures of her son and she's offering her extra room to me. Like, I felt pathetic. I had bronchitis. So I was just like. I was just like. I really, really, really felt low. I felt like the same, you know, 10 year old had been denied by Kayla Peterson. That's the one person. I don't remember names that well.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, he never does that from wherever this goes.

[Sophie Ansari]

So is this being recorded?

[Penn Badgley]

I don't know.

[Nava Kavilan]

Speak it louder to your mic. Is this being recorded?

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm not aware that this is a thing.

[Penn Badgley]

I didn't hear the name.

[Sophie Ansari]

So, you know, it's a great. In some ways, it's a great story, but I also feel like that's, you know, we have a really simplistic notion of relationships and dating and even marriage. It's like just because there's this great meeting and just because you're compatible, that doesn't mean, like everything. Like, you really have to figure out how to make it work. Because I had had other meetings like that, and I happen to be a person who, like, you know, the three relationships in my 20s all kind of started that way. They were just sudden, didn't seem to have control, you know, who doesn't? You should have some control. You should have some say. Right?

[Penn Badgley]

So, you know, it's a beautiful story.

[Sophie Ansari]

Take what you can from it.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you for sharing that. Do we have time to do these, like, three Gossip Girl questions? Okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay, I'll try to answer in three words.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Oh, wait, I have to end on this one. This is from Pen's mom.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, my goodness. Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

We're skipping the other ones. I'm really sorry. Pen, please explain. You are not a middle school dropout from Mom.

[F]

Wait, you laugh.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's the tagline of our show. Because I. Middle school dropout.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. Well, it's a joke because. So you're taking. You're a fifth grade teacher, right? Not a middle school teacher. So we're. We fudge a little bit to create a tagline. Okay. I didn't complete middle school. But to say I dropped out would imply I didn't go to school afterward. What she's referencing is the fact that I did. I got the equivalent of a high school diploma and attended community college.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

And got the equivalent of. Actually, no, I didn't finish that degree. But then I was accepted to USC as a junior transfer.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

So I could have gone to college. My mother is correct. Yeah. She's trying. She's. She's.

[Penn Badgley]

That's amazing.

[Sophie Ansari]

She's trying to say that my son is very smart. And it implies that I did not have any concern for his well being and his education. And I did. And she did. She fought. So in Hollywood, she fought. See? Not a short answer. No, she fought. She really helped create. In a town where there's no structure for children. It's like a structure fire. In fact, she helped create a path forward that had some kind of structure. It had some other craziness to it, but. But yes, I actually kept my schooling as formal as I could, which still means I did not actually finish middle school. And I attended high school for less than 40 days. Which you can read about in the book.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Let's plug the book and then I think we gotta jet. When does the book come out?

[Sophie Ansari]

October 7th.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yes, October 7th. Available for pre order now, wherever you buy books.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, yeah.

[F]

It's called Crushmore.

[Nava Kavilan]

No ghostwriters. We wrote it all ourselves.

[Sophie Ansari]

Definitely. That I can vouch for exhaustively. Wish there were ghosts who could write for us. Wish I would kill people to make ghosts.

[Penn Badgley]

That's a good place to end.

[Sophie Ansari]

And there it goes, full circle. We were waiting for a you reference. Right.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's give it up for the host of Packer.

[Nava Kavilan]

Thank you. Let's give it up for Anna Martin.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yes. Anna Martin.

[Nava Kavilan]

Thank you.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

It's easy to feel helpless these days.

[Penn Badgley]

So take a break from the bad news and hear from people who are.

[Nava Kavilan]

Doing good things to address big problems. We care about abortion access. We care about slowing down, reversing climate change. That's the approach we need to these.

[Lena Waithe]

Long term systemic problems.

[Nava Kavilan]

We need the fixers feel empowered to take action. Listen to good things from La Nada.

[Lena Waithe]

Media, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

Hi, I'm Erica Mahoney.

[Lena Waithe]

You don't know me, but you know.

[Penn Badgley]

A version of my story because by now we've all felt the impact of senseless gun violence.

[Sophie Ansari]

I think a stray bullet that flew past me because I hear the it.

[Nava Kavilan]

Was that horrible feeling of dread, something's wrong.

[Penn Badgley]

Four years ago, my dad was killed.

[Lena Waithe]

In a mass shooting.

[Penn Badgley]

My podcast, Senseless is about moving forward after the unthinkable Senseless from Lemonada Media, premiering June 17.