Allison Williams

Summary

Podcrushed Episode Summary: Allison Williams Release Date: July 2, 2025

Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Allison Williams
Description: Podcrushed delves into the tumultuous journey of adolescence, exploring themes like heartbreak, anxiety, and self-discovery through relatable middle school stories. In this episode, hosts Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, and Sophie Ansari are joined by actress Alison Williams to discuss their formative years, early crushes, and the path that led them to their current careers.

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Introduction and Guest Overview

The episode kicks off with energetic introductions, setting the stage for an engaging conversation. The hosts welcome Alison Williams, praising her intelligence, humor, and charisma, highlighting her roles in projects like "Get Out" and "Megan 2.0."

Notable Quote:

Alison Williams: "She's so smart and funny and charismatic. And I just want to say on the record how much I loved that conversation."
(Timestamp: 01:26)

---

Penn's Middle School Experiences

Penn Badgley shares vivid anecdotes from his middle school days, illustrating the chaos and comedic missteps typical of adolescence. He recounts moments like humorously miscommunicating with teachers and navigating the complexities of interacting with peers.

Notable Quotes:

Penn Badgley: "Every day was almost the beginning of a rom com. And then once it was no longer just me in my bedroom alone with my imagination and my thoughts... It was all just a colossal comedy of errors."
(Timestamp: 04:36)

Penn Badgley: "I enjoy defusing tension with humor. And that's gonna be a coping mechanism that I'll use for my whole life."
(Timestamp: 07:13)

---

Navigating Friendships and Rules

The conversation delves into the challenges faced by rule-following individuals in middle school, contrasting them with peers who defied norms. Penn reflects on his admiration for older kids and the stress of interacting with those who didn't adhere to established rules.

Notable Quotes:

Penn Badgley: "I think that it's kind of a nature thing... Very curious to see how that brings up in me."
(Timestamp: 15:31)

Penn Badgley: "The cool kids are not following rules... It's the same thing that Amy describes."
(Timestamp: 15:46)

---

The Smoking Incident

Penn humorously narrates his brief stint with smoking during adolescence, highlighting the fleeting nature of such experiments and the often misguided attempts to appear "cool."

Notable Quotes:

Penn Badgley: "I wore gloves. I had perfume in my pocket that I would spray on my whole body... I blindly smoked those loyally for the entirety of my smoking, which was not very long."
(Timestamp: 16:28)

---

Alison Williams on Acting and Career Beginnings

Alison Williams shares her journey into acting, emphasizing the influence of early inspirations like Julie Andrews and "The Wizard of Oz." She discusses the support from her parents and the challenges of balancing personal growth with a budding acting career.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Williams: "I had the deal that they were going to be able to afford to send me to college and that after I graduated from college, I'd have their blessing."
(Timestamp: 21:21)

Alison Williams: "I became a mom over the course of making the movie. And with the sequel, I was a producer on it."
(Timestamp: 66:16)

---

Reflections on Parenthood and Friendship

The hosts transition the conversation to parenthood, discussing how becoming parents has reshaped their friendships and introduced new dynamics. Alison talks about launching her podcast "Landlines" to foster deeper connections and support among mothers.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Williams: "We entered this stage of life kind of staggered, but mostly at the same moment and clung to each other like static electricity."
(Timestamp: 81:05)

Alison Williams: "If everyone who feels so isolated in this experience could have access to this group chat that I found so, like, life-affirming and saved my experience of early motherhood, then I feel like the world would be a little bit better."
(Timestamp: 84:24)

---

Discussing "Get Out" and "Megan" Projects

Alison delves into her experiences working on "Get Out," highlighting the collaborative process with Jordan Peele and the depth of character development required to portray Rose convincingly. She also touches upon her involvement in the "Megan" sequels, exploring themes of technology and parenting.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Williams: "I had to literally hate everyone... getting myself to that place was like, the closest I've ever taken myself to doing any kind of method acting."
(Timestamp: 60:07)

Alison Williams: "We're putting all of these people and robots in the context of an action movie. And everyone was like, yes, of course, and make it a thriller..."
(Timestamp: 68:31)

---

Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors

As the episode winds down, the hosts express their appreciation for Alison's insights and share mutual encouragement for their respective projects. They hint at future topics and express enthusiasm for continued collaboration.

Notable Quotes:

Penn Badgley: "You just save questions."
(Timestamp: 03:11)

Alison Williams: "If I were to go back to 12 year old Allison, what would I say or do? I would give her a hug."
(Timestamp: 85:50)

---

Conclusion

This episode of Podcrushed offers a heartfelt exploration of middle school experiences, the complexities of adolescence, and the transformative journey into adulthood and parenthood. With candid stories and insightful reflections, Penn, Nava, Sophie, and Alison provide listeners with relatable content that underscores the universal challenges of growing up and forging meaningful connections.

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Note: Advertisements and promotional segments within the transcript have been excluded to maintain focus on the core conversational content of the episode.

Transcript

[Sophie Ansari]

Lemonade.

[Penn Badgley]

I actually walked into a store on 7th Avenue that sold, like, you know, tobacco and monster energy drinks, and seemingly that was it. And I was like, what do. Excuse me, sir. And then that was not what I said. But what I said next was true, which was I said, what do people who look like me smoke? And he paused for, like, not a second and goes, yellow American spirits.

[Nava Kavilan]

He's right.

[Penn Badgley]

I'll take a pack.

[Nava Kavilan]

Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Alison Williams]

And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been.

[Sophie Ansari]

Your middle school besties, having seven way celebrity crushes.

[Alison Williams]

Elijah Wood, Hayden Christensen, Devon Sawa, Zayn Malik, Josh Hartnett, Robert Pattinson, Chace Crawford.

[Sophie Ansari]

Too close.

[Nava Kavilan]

Welcome to podcrushed. I'm Penn Badgley. I'm joined by my co hosts, Sophie Anzari. Nava Kavlan, our guest. We're just gonna get right into our guests because she was lovely and she loved us, and we love. Because she loved us, and that's the only reason.

[Sophie Ansari]

Healthy.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super healthy. Not trying to please anybody. No. Today we have Alison Williams, an actor, you know, from a whole range of projects, including her horror story.

[Alison Williams]

I have to say more about that. Alison is so.

[Sophie Ansari]

Nava was the one who just let it be known.

[Alison Williams]

Nava was the one who's like, we.

[Sophie Ansari]

Just gotta get right into it, guys.

[Alison Williams]

About how amazing Allison is. I've spent, like, no banter. We don't need to talk about anything else but how wonderful Alison is. I just want to say I really enjoyed talking to her. Like, she was just. She's so smart and funny and charismatic. And I just want to say on the record how much I loved that conversation.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yes. She was kind of like a dream guest. She had so many stories. Like, by the end of what she'd say, I noticed the three of us often were just like, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow. Yeah.

[Alison Williams]

In a trance. Yeah. Hypnotized.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. She was amazing.

[Nava Kavilan]

For that reason, though. I mean, the episode is long and it's. And it's. But I don't think it feels long. It's a really engaging conversation. I don't think we're gonna have to edit anything, frankly. So we just want to get into it. So now let me. Can I do it now?

[Alison Williams]

Okay, now you can do it.

[Nava Kavilan]

Our guest today is, as we've said, Allison Williams. Get out. Sophie. Neva, can you please just.

[Alison Williams]

Just leave the room?

[Penn Badgley]

Exit.

[Sophie Ansari]

Megan. Megan won. Megan, get out.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, No, I was.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, you're telling us. Get Out.

[Nava Kavilan]

I was telling you to leave.

[Sophie Ansari]

I thought you were lost. Yeah, can you just figure out the next line?

[Nava Kavilan]

Can you please just get out? No. And then, of course, she's. Girls, girls, ladies, girls. No, see, I'm just now just punning off of all. So to be clear. Let me be clear. Alison was in Get Out, a famously chilling performance, in Get Out, a famously endearing performance as Marty Michaels and girls. And now, now, the famously second best podcast in the world. She's behind the mic in a show called Landlines. But her newest film is Megan 2.0, a sequel to the massively successful Megan, which is about an AI doll who develops self awareness and becomes hostile towards anyone who comes between her and her human companion.

[Sophie Ansari]

Cool, cool, cool.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. Cool, cool, cool.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, no. Yeah, yeah, that sounds. That sounds good.

[Alison Williams]

Not too close to life at all.

[Nava Kavilan]

Allison. Well, you already heard. She was lovely. She was fun. She loved us. We loved her. You'll love this. Stick around.

[David Duchovny]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hi, everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver, to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

At 12, I was like, pretty regularly trying to just breathe through the first of all, like, incredible boy craziness. And I deeply relate to the boy crazy members of this current Zoom. All of us. Yeah, exactly, Penn. Looking at you just every day, every day was full was almost a rom com. Like remembering and channeling that part of myself is so important because that was the backdrop to everything else. Every morning was a montage. Every day was almost the beginning of a rom com. And then once it was no longer just me in my bedroom alone with my imagination and my thoughts. And I was actually Interacting with real other humans. It was all just, like, a colossal comedy of errors. Like, just misfiring in so many directions. I remember so many little auditioning of, like, a sense of humor that just, like, didn't go well, and trying to, like, readjust. And it got me in trouble all the time. Like this time in sixth grade where I was saying to. We had been told to just go to the bathroom. Don't cause a big disruption. Just if you gotta go, get up, leave the classroom and go to the bathroom. And like, 45 minutes after, our teacher, Mr. Lewis, said that to us, I needed to go to the bathroom. So I got to the door, and I just couldn't resist the urge to turn around and say to the whole class, I am going to the bathroom. And that is not a question. And I walked out of the room, and I was in the hallway, and now there's, like, a split screen, right? There's the classroom I just left behind, which I thought nothing about. I just was like, when I leave the room, I don't know. I'm old enough to have object permanence, but that wasn't really on my mind. But I left the room, and it ceased to exist. And I'm in my screen where I'm walking down the hallways full of comedic triumph. I am Mary Tyler Moore. I am Mindy Kaling. I am a comedic genius. And I'm in the bathroom feeling so satisfied. I come back into the classroom. I am in trouble. I am in capital T trouble. That is not the way you talk to your teacher in front of your whole class. And also creates such a disturbance, like, way greater than the one they had been trying to avoid in the first place and had to have a whole conversation with them afterwards. And what I should have said, which I didn't have language for yet, was like, I enjoy defusing tension with humor. And that's gonna be a coping mechanism that I'll use for my whole life. I loved your Julia Louis Dreyfus conversation. We had this in common, but I just didn't know quite how to deploy it yet. And I will never be as good at it as jld, obviously, but lifelong pursuit. But that was so. And that was like, a month of my life processing that. I'm still processing it, but just walking into that classroom and trying to get that confidence back of like, all right, here we go. We're going to, like, maybe there'll be an opportunity for another joke. And then trying to be brave enough to just keep them coming. I remember in seventh grade, I Was sitting in my English class about. And class was about to start, and, like, a fart that I had no, like, warning was coming came out, like, a small one. It just was like, it had no gastrointestinal evidence that I had no. Like, there were no. What is it called, like, in an earthquake when there's, like, a little bit of rumble tremor. There were no tremors. I was like, aftershock is the after that was. There was no aftershock. The aftershock was, though, that I. My instinct was. I was swiveled around in my chair talking to my classmate Bennett. Hey, Bennett. And my instinct in that moment was to just start drawing on him with my pencil. Now, pencil's notoriously, famously, not good at. Notoriously not good at drawing on human skin. Like.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So in effect, what happened was this. I swiveled around, talking to him. I fart, and then I proceed to, like, kind of gently stab him with lead.

[Alison Williams]

Oh, no.

[Penn Badgley]

As we both try to, like, navigate this moment of, like, he knows I know. I know he knows he knows I know. He kind of looked at me quizzically and was like, huh? And I was, like, just knifing into his hands with my pencil. It's just. That is, like, those years are just, like. They're just vibrating with, like, so many different, like, moments of just 10 out of 10 stakes in your body and in the world. To the world, like, zero stakes. You know what I mean? It was just.

[Nava Kavilan]

Anyway, no, that is it. You have. You have captured.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I've listened to a lot of your show. I've learned a lot.

[Nava Kavilan]

So you get it. You get it. You're auditioning. You're auditioning.

[Penn Badgley]

I am. Honestly, like, one of you will get busy. I need to go on leave for some reason again. And, like, I'm here, you know?

[Alison Williams]

Pen.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I'm here.

[Alison Williams]

Twins on the way. Allison, we are looking for a guest host, and you've landed the job, so.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you so much. All I want. My husband always makes fun of me for this. He's like, all you want out of every interaction is a letter grade. Really, at the end of the day.

[Alison Williams]

You just save questions.

[Penn Badgley]

I was in. We shot the first M3gan movie in New Zealand during the post Covid times. We had to do two weeks of isolation in a hotel room. And I was definitely hoping this is adult Allison. Like, basically the one that's here, except I was not a mom yet. That's changed me a lot. But not in this way. A little bit in this way. But I definitely wanted at the end of the day, the whole staff of that hotel to gather and be like, you guys know who's really killing it and following all the rules. Can I just say, I've never seen her off her dot in the hallway waiting to be swabbed. That girl is two feet in the dot. Never without her mask. Always sanitizing at every opportunity, puts her trash out in the hallway on time. She is. She is acing this. She's an exemplary COVID isolation patient. She walks in the right direction in the allotted outdoor time. She walks at the right pace. You know, I just really wanted. That was like my dream of what was happening, like, behind the scenes and that narcissism and ego is why we become actors. I think then it helps lay the groundwork for what we do for a living, is thinking that people might care about us like that.

[Nava Kavilan]

You know, I think that. I think that my first instinct was to. I mean, yes, but, you know, if you go back far enough, there's a time where it's. It's. It hasn't. It hasn't. I was gonna say hardened, but it hasn't. It hasn't grown or evolved or developed. It hasn't developed yet enough into something that I think is self centered. I think, as children. Yeah, that really hurt.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you for noticing that. I was like, I wanted to help you so badly, and I was wrong. And I got. I got an F, and I don't get a lot of.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, no, no, no. I think it's a C. Because you had the effort.

[Penn Badgley]

Worse. Honestly, now I'm on the board. I don't even want to be on the board. Sorry. You're at an age where it hasn't developed yet.

[Nava Kavilan]

It hasn't really developed into something that I think is, like, you could describe with any negativity. There's. There's an age at which, you know, you're just looking earnestly out into the world. That's what I'm hearing. At least that's what I'm imagining you at, like six maybe, where you're just, you know, you want to. You, You. You want to do well.

[Alison Williams]

I have a question. Actually, Allison. I've been listening to Amy Poehler's podcast Good Hay, so good. And she also is a rule follower. And a theme that she sort of touches on in a few episodes is, as a rule follower, she has a hard time with people who aren't. And she. She tells really funny stories of, like, leaving notes when she was at SNL for, like, people who aren't. Peeing appropriately in the bathroom, in her opinion, which I think is so funny. And how airports are really hard for her because that's a place where, like, people are not following the rules a lot. And that's like, very triggering for her. And I'm curious, as like a rule follower as a kid, how did you interact with kids who weren't rule followers? Was that triggering for you?

[Penn Badgley]

Sort of like. Yeah, it's really hard. I think I associate it kind of with like loosey, goosey boundary kids, which also were really difficult for me, like, especially if they were older, because older kids were everything. Everything. What was cooler than an older kid? Nothing. Still, when I think about the kids that were older than me when I was a kid, they feel older than me now, even at that age. Like a. Oh my God, I want to use their full names. But like a 15 year old version of like that cool kid is still cooler than me now. And definitely, yeah, 100%. So I think that was always really hard because I thought they were so cool and I couldn't. And I knew that that was what it took to be cool for so much of that, for those years in middle school. The cool kids are not following rules, not in our culture anyway. They are the ones that are kind of breaking them or don't care about them, or even cooler are like questioning their existence. The existence of rules, of hierarchy, of what authority do you have over me? They'd give me like a reading assignment. I'd read it, I'd write the thing about it. I wouldn't question it at all. And I had classmates who were like, let's consider this source. Why are we reading something written by this person? I was like, what? A person of authority gave us this document to read. Read it. How dare you? And they're like, yeah, it's written by the onion. This is not factually accurate, you know, so that other kids that didn't follow rules I always found really stressful. Oh my God. Like, it was. It's the same thing that Amy describes. Like, happening in her body was always happening with me. And honestly, I will be very curious to see when. I mean, he's three and a half now, but, like, as he grows up, he'll be around kids that are like that. Because I feel like that it's kind of a nature thing. And I'll be very interested to see with our son, like, how what that brings up in me. And it'll definitely bring up the same feeling of panic and worry. And I just hope I can keep it at the boundaries of my body. What's fascinating about him is that he's kind of a cool hybrid. My husband is not a rule follower at all. He is a logic follower. And life and his isolation in New Zealand was a deeply painful and difficult experience because he was like, you can't tell me when to walk where, what direction to walk in. If I can stop and look at a tree, I'm gonna lose my mind. And I was like, I love these boundaries. Give me more. I hope I'm doing an excellent job. And our son is sort of a combo where when he gets like a set of Legos, he kind of knows, like, this is, you know, this is eventually what this piece is gonna be, but it could also be this. And I'm gonna do the instructions now, but then I'll riff on it later. It's sort of like a kind of awesome hybrid and I hope I'm really jealous of it.

[Nava Kavilan]

It really does sound like the best of both worlds because, you know, you do need structure in order to build anything. You need. You need some rules. You can't just be, you know, absolute freedom is actually just. It's just, it's just nothing. You know, it's like you need. You need shadow to give form to light, etc.

[Penn Badgley]

And those kids, those non rule following kids needed us to be non rule following kids. Yeah, like, otherwise, who were they?

[Alison Williams]

That's true.

[Nava Kavilan]

I didn't have as as many cutting edge non rule followers in my. That I can recall because what you described is like, yeah, all right. These kids are like existentialists. But the ones I had were just like, I'm gonna go fucking smoke. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, that's real nonconformist, bro.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I thought that was cool. I mean, it's not cool. I mean, it is cool though. Smoking's tough to talk about because.

[Nava Kavilan]

Let's get into it, let's talk about smoking.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't do it anymore. I did it briefly, it objectively, guys, like, can we just be honest that it looks cool? And we were talking about the Kirk sisters. Like, that's not even controversial. No one smokes a cigarette like a Kirk sister. Let's start there. It's just incredible.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, Jemima in particular.

[Penn Badgley]

Jemima in particular. I mean, she. There should just always. She should grow one between her fingers and it should just be there permanently. Like, it's perfect. I didn't have the same, like, vibe as a smoker. You can't like, transform your personality. I still, like, I did the Me things you'd expect me to do as a, as a smoker for a brief moment.

[Nava Kavilan]

Am I doing it right?

[Penn Badgley]

Literally, I wore gloves. I had perfume in my pocket that I would spray on my whole body. I'd stand upwind of the cigarette. You know, things that people do. I actually walked into a store on 7th Avenue that sold like, you know, tobacco and monster energy drinks. And seemingly that was it. And I was like, what do. Excuse me, sir. And then that was not what I said. But what I said next was true, which was I said, what do people who look like me smoke? And he paused for like not a second and goes, yellow American spirits. That's right, I'll take a pack. And he was right. And I smoked them for a little while.

[Nava Kavilan]

But I gotta say, American spirits, they're the longest, slowest, driest drag. They really were just such a hipster thing. And I never understood it.

[Penn Badgley]

I never had a discerning enough palate to have an opinion about them.

[Sophie Ansari]

I just wanted to.

[Penn Badgley]

I blindly. This is true. And I've never made this connection before, which people say all the time on your podcast. You guys have like a magical quality.

[Nava Kavilan]

About that credit to us.

[Penn Badgley]

You do the. I blindly smoked those loyally for the entirety of my smoking, which was not very long. But like I never. I also would have probably fit the profile of like a parliament or a Marble Alight. But I was like, this man told me that this is what I smoke. Obedient.

[Alison Williams]

You are.

[Penn Badgley]

This is what I. But yeah, I mean, we didn't have smokers at our school. It was like, you know, middle school, like smokers. But in high school there's like, I mean, and people who grew up in New York City don't have like a car based high school experience. But like if you grow up in a suburban community where people are driving, like the stakes of the non rule following suddenly go like through the roof. And you have people who are making bad decisions about how they're driving. That's like, shit gets really real. And that is where like, for me, like, shit really hit the fan. Because it's like these people are cool, they're older, they're getting behind the car, the wheel of a car. And I know they've been drinking. What are you made of, Allison? What are you gonna do? You know, like, how good are your choices gonna be? And that's like, that's when I think about being a mom and what scares me, like, yes, falls and all sickness and all that is scary. But that moment is like chills Me to the bone.

[Sophie Ansari]

I know. It is so scary, particularly driving. I got my license at 27 because I moved to LA and I was like, well, I gotta do it. And I went through this whole thing where I was like, it's absolutely insane that 15 year olds are on the road. Like, when you learn to drive as an adult, you have such a sense of the stakes of barreling down the highway, this like metal contraption. It's so insane. But then you realize, oh, actually that's the only way it works. That's the only way it works is that you have 15 year olds learning to drive because they're not scared. They're like, cool. This has no, there's no stakes to this.

[Penn Badgley]

I guess that's true. Except now that I think of it, we should let them bake a little longer first. I think for a lot of things.

[Nava Kavilan]

Like as a person who learned to drive in LA and we were just all actor kids guys, we drove drunk so much, it's criminal. And I didn't know anybody who didn't, by the way. I didn't know adults who didn't know. I didn't know anybody who didn't. And that, I mean, I'm sorry to maybe, I don't know if I should or shouldn't say that, but I think actually recognizing that. Cause you know, it's been 10 years since I've had a drink anyway. And I mean, and thinking about the responsibility of, you know, you're putting so many people in danger and it's so common. It's like criminally common.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't know how that culture has changed. I hope to God it has.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

So let's go to you when in this time you were already acting. You know, I mean, as, as we understand, as you tell it, you knew that you wanted to act before you maybe knew anything. And at least that's the way you remember it. It was so innate in you. So, I mean, give us a sense of like, you know, we don't have to go maybe too far back, but just, just a sense of where it came from. And by this point in time, your relationship to it, did you think it would be professional? Did you? How, you know, how are you seeing the world as an artist?

[Penn Badgley]

I'm smiling because, like, it all really started with Julie Andrews. Pretty simply. Like, first of all, she. And then the wizard of Oz were the way I figured out that acting was a job. That like one person was playing multiple people. And I just had that like innate little kid thing. Like when you're around a little kid that's an actor. It's pretty loud. Like, it's a pretty loud quality. And often they are also pretty loud. And I was just a performer, like, from the beginning, and I knew I was gonna do it for a living. I just knew I was gonna just not stop until I did. I just was like, this is who I am and what I'm gonna do, and I'm not taking no for an answer, and I'll do whatever it takes. And at that age, even in, like, in middle school, when it's not cool to, like, care about anything or want anything, that was still my North Star for all those years. Like, in the school plays, in the singing group, like, always taking voice lessons, piano, like, just honing. But my parents knew enough about me being the first experts on me to know that I wasn't constitutionally going to be able to handle starting to act before I was as old as possible. They were like, you are not up for this. And so no matter how much I begged them, they said no. And the deal was that they were going to be able to afford to send me to college and that after I graduated from college, I'd have their blessing, mostly just their emotional support. And honestly, we're so close that that was kind of enough of a carrot for me to go off and pursue this thing. And there's layers and layers and layers of privilege wrapped up in all of that. So just important to say that out loud. But I really am so grateful to them, looking back for this decision they made that I fought tooth and nail in the moment. I was like, come on, I'm gonna be too old by the time I'm allowed to act. Like, I'm not gonna play. Like, you know, sorry, trigger, warning, pen. I'm not gonna be able to play a high school. I'm gonna be too old. Like, I don't understand.

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't get that joke.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't understand. I'll tell your Persona, the joke. You might understand it. You're too grounded now. But I felt like, you know, I felt panicky about it. And yet they were so right. Like, they were just right. I wasn't ready. And so at that age, I was yearning to do it, striving to do it, like, obsessed with watching other performances and just wanting to get better at it. Dreaming of the day when I could do it. And then by the time I was doing it, I felt. I mean, you can never really be ready to handle, like, either intense success or intense failure in this field or Anything in between, honestly. It's a hard job and kind of any way you look at it. But I felt as ready as I could possibly feel when, like, the girls thing happened, which was my first job. And wow. And that was fully. Because I just became more. I became myself more. I had longer to cook, and it was. Yeah, I was doing less growing while being in the public eye simultaneously, which I. You know, I think about your show so much when I think about this, because that was, like, I would have killed to be on that show. I was, like, desperate to be on that show, and it would have destroyed me. Like, I would not have been able to handle it at all. Like, oh, my God, Just no way. I didn't have that constitution. Violet McGraw, who's in the Megan movies, he plays my niece, kind of daughter, best friend, fellow Swiftie is like, you know, solid. Like, she just is her. She's solid. She has, like, a really solid sense of self, and she's just.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's not surprising because she's very good.

[Penn Badgley]

She's really good. She's really good. We call her the Violet. Actually, her mom calls her the Violet. Cause she feels like a. She's like, being a kid, interacting with kids, talking about kid things. She and Amy, who's the physical performer of Megan, when she's, like, doing wide shots, when she's moving a lot, are very close, and they are, like, giggly and smiley and girly. And then time to go to work. And Violet is like, okay, takes a second, closes her eyes, and, like, delivers a perfect performance every single take. And then can, like, just become a kid again and is not evaluated on the metric you're. The first episode of your show, I was remembering that Leighton was talking about the evaluation of a child actor is how adult you can be. And what I love about Violet is that the parts of her that aren't adult are celebrated. And so she's simultaneously in this very adult workspace where we're all grownups and she's not, and she's working at our level, but then is also being celebrated for being exactly where she is. And that is someone who can handle this. But I was not Violet. I was still figuring out who I was for a long time and didn't like the answer and just kept rejecting it until I finally had to accept it, which was like, a long journey.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, thank God for your parents. I mean, the fact that they. They held that boundary for you. And I feel like I can think about my life and think about these distinct periods of, like, particularly I Think about before I got married. I think about the time that I lived with my friends in New York City and was having so much fun. But I remember, like, wanting to get married, wanting to, like, start that next part of my life and find the person I was going to be with. Just like, just so I could know, kind of. And then when I did get married, it's amazing. I love it. I wouldn't change it. But, like, thinking about that time and realizing I'm so grateful that I had even just a few years of that phase. Even though during a lot of that time I was, like, hoping for the next stage. I feel like it's so precious when you have things to safeguard those stages so you're not jumping ahead too fast.

[Penn Badgley]

I find that so painfully true. Like, yearning for the next thing and like, just not being able to be present in what's happening is kind of what you're supposed to be doing in your 20s. But it's the worst time for it. Because if ever there was a decade to spend, like, really in it, like living your life, it should be that one, because it ends up being like building block shit, you know? And it all comes back for you, whether you like it or not. It's coming back at some point. But yeah, I really think. Pen, I don't drink either. And I think that I was. I was lucky enough to get out of the game early. And I think that really helped though, because a lot of my friends, I look back on college and it's a little bit like, blurry in that way. And. But luckily by 22, I was out of that game. And so I got to live my 20s at least, like, racked with anxiety and all these other things coursing through my veins. But not alcohol, so that was helpful.

[Nava Kavilan]

You stopped drinking that early?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. 20. It's been 15 years. When you said 10 years, I suddenly was like, how long has it been? And I was like, oh My God, it's 2025. Been almost 15 years in August.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow. And we'll be right back.

[Alison Williams]

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[F]

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[Sophie Ansari]

Before we jump too far ahead into the 20s and 30s, we have a couple classic ass.

[Penn Badgley]

I do.

[Sophie Ansari]

Could you tell us about your first crush and or first heartbreak during adolescence?

[Penn Badgley]

This is so hard. I know the second question is going to make me cry because it makes everyone cry. So I'm sort of like preparing for that already. Also, I got three hours of sleep, so you're welcome for volunteers purposes. So there's a lot of ways to go with first crush. Whenever I've been listening to this, I'm like, my actual answer is Harrison Ford. Like that's the, that's the actual answer because I felt like I was in actual love with him. Like real grounded, very, very tangible love with Harris.

[Nava Kavilan]

Which one?

[Penn Badgley]

What'd you say?

[Nava Kavilan]

Which movie?

[Penn Badgley]

So they re released Star wars when I was in third grade. They like did a re. They, I don't know, modernized it for screens again. And that was the first time that I saw him and I saw Star wars and I was introduced to Han Solo and that entire archetype of man, which I still is my like Achilles heel. Well, by the way, I'm in very good company. It's like a kind of Byronic guy is like the guy. And I ended up kind of marrying a guy who played that character on a show that I loved. So a little full circle there. But I fell so hard for him and I felt like it wasn't impossible. And that's hilarious because I was in third grade and he was Harrison Ford and he was not Han Solo Harrison Ford. He was Han solo Harrison Ford. Plus I think 20 years maybe at that point.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, he's the fugitive.

[Penn Badgley]

Han Solo's like, look, we can do this.

[Sophie Ansari]

We can make it work.

[Penn Badgley]

We can figure this out. Yeah, I haven't even gotten braces yet. I am still growing teeth in ye. I don't have the nipple rocks yet. Like, it's all, it's yet to come. And still I think I may be the next great love of your life. Harrison. That was really my first grounded love. But the first crush that was in my midst was a seven way tie. It went from just Harrison Ford, then some Josh Hartnett, then Ben Affleck. Pearl harbor hit hard and obviously Leonardo DiCaprio had his moment before that with Titanic. And then after those guys, those guys, after they cleared out, then there was a ton of guys that suddenly I was like, wait, there are guys around me in real life that are hot and young and funny and cool and athletic. That was my favorite quality. And I was like, oh my God, I don't have to just have crushes on those guys. They're here and they're closer to my age. So that's helpful. And that was like, there were so many. And I just, I just did all the things we do. When you have a crush on someone in middle school, I wrote their name everywhere I wrote. I like did individualized posters for them with like acrostic poems and adjectives and.

[Nava Kavilan]

Like multiples at a time. Like, were you fully. Were you all in on one at a time and then it would end or was it just like you had your sort of ensemble?

[Penn Badgley]

I had like a roster. And this is also the age of AOL Instant messenger, which is a really important thing to bring up because I still have never experienced a hit of Serotonin. Or maybe it was adrenaline or both. Like the one where your crush. That you hear the door creaking and your crush is signed on to Aolison.

[Alison Williams]

Same. Honestly, same.

[Penn Badgley]

It is. Or a moody away message that you spend, like, hours decoding in your crush who's like. Like a Dave Matthews quote that's like, you know, and out onto Gray street and you're like, oh, my God, where'd you go?

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, that's right. There were. There were, like. They were. There were like, customized BRB messages.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes. It was, in a way, message.

[Nava Kavilan]

I forgot about those.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it was a big deal. It was the way you communicated. It was like an early tweet kind of. You tell your peers where you were, but you wouldn't. You'd use a Dave Matthews lyric.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, it really did say a lot and. Yeah. Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

But that. When that door opened, it was a rush and then the tension of waiting. Are they gonna message me? Am I gonna message them? We're here in this virtual space together. Like, we're in a.

[Nava Kavilan]

Can you guys, remind me, how did that. Like, what was the chat space that, like, so many people you would know would be in the same. You know what I mean? Like, how was that? It's like a room.

[Sophie Ansari]

So you're just signed on to the.

[Penn Badgley]

Room and it was your friends. They were your friends.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm just trying to remember, like, how. Cause there would also be so many people you don't know. Right.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, that was probably you. I don't. Maybe that was a specific to you.

[Sophie Ansari]

The rest of us are adding our friends.

[Penn Badgley]

The rest of us just had our friends. You had fans and friends. Probably a mixture of both.

[Nava Kavilan]

Just trying to remember.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, so there was like, a box where in the corner I'm pointing. This is an audio medium, but there's a box in the corner of your screen. Eventually, AOL Instruments was its own platform, but at first it was just the chat part of aol. And there was a thing in the corner of your screen that would show at the bottom, grayed out and italicized. It's vivid for me, as you can tell all of your friends. And then the ones there was a little section for like. Oh, right. If they're just online and then offline.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. And when someone came online that was your friend, you'd hear that door opening.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yes, yes, yes. I.

[Penn Badgley]

Now I'm really close.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, you're, by the way, a passing with flying colors just getting Us back there.

[Penn Badgley]

Put it directly into my. I'm going to clip that audio and keep it. I'm going to. It's my alarm clock.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I want to win. From the morning I wake up. From the moment I wake up in the morning. But that experience was like, I feel bad that kids don't have something like that. There's so many things about their life that's, like, better and cooler. And pimple patches would have, like, saved hours of my life, cumulatively, like, maybe days of my life if I had just been like, oh, I'll put a cute sticker on it. What? I don't have to pretend it doesn't exist and hide it with all my might with, like, bad concealing technique. Oh, my God. I could have celebrated it and adorned it, like, yeah, incredible. You know, but it is a shame that that kind of like, that virtual space is, I guess the DMS now, technically, where you can see that green, you know, where people are there.

[Nava Kavilan]

But it's not the same.

[Penn Badgley]

Too diffused. It's not concentrated enough.

[Alison Williams]

Like, the early days of the Internet were utopic. Now it's just.

[Penn Badgley]

We'll get into it. Yeah, it's true. But. So that was my biggest, like, you know, hearing people on your show talk about kind of like romantic fail moments. My biggest romantic fail moment was on AOL Instant Messenger. It was an early lesson I learned that I keep thinking about as a mom because it was bad advice from my mom. And you often ask about good and important advice, and I'm gonna tell you about bad and useless advice, but in its own way, important. So there was a guy in my youth group at church, which wasn't long lived because once this happened, I had no more interest in being there. Full disclosure. Sorry. Jesus and God and everyone. Blue Spirit. It was episod. It was the Trinity. Anyway, so his name was Stan. Hello, Stan. I was so in love with him. I thought he was everything. He didn't talk. I don't think I knew what his voice sounded like. And that was part of it. It was important. He had a hat that was, like, weathered and cool, and he didn't talk. And for me, that was everything. And my mom told me at the kitchen, communal desktop computer, which is what everybody had. She walked past me, saw me on AOL Instant messenger and was like, tell him how you feel. Just tell him you have feelings for him. Like, what do you have to lose? Probably because I'd been talking about it for months at a time, and she was probably like, I'm fucking Sick of this. Something has to happen. Like, this storyline needs to progress in some way, for good or bad. So just tell him you have feelings for him. And I did. I sent him an aol, an im she helped me craft that. Said something to the effect of like, I have feelings for you. And what he said was gtg. Bye. The cringes in these zoom boxes were visceral just now and for anyone younger than us, gtg because I don't think anyone uses that anymore. Maybe it was G2G. It's got to go. And people would either write GTG or G number 2G. Either way, he fully left. He, like, signed off and it was a porn effect.

[Alison Williams]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

Core memory for me.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, that's. It's really bringing back to me. The year of the age of 13 was the year for me where there was so many girls I was, you know, chatting with on aim and just that you're bringing back that feeling. All you were doing was constantly imagining what they meant by this, what they meant by that. Like, the way people typed was such a thing, you know, like, you really were often decoding so many things. And then people would often, you know, I mean, at least my experience was, like, people would play with that. They would purposefully sort of say something like, oh, sorry, I meant to say, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it was awful, frankly, for me.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my God.

[Nava Kavilan]

Never produced anything other than anxiety.

[Penn Badgley]

I have saved instant message conversations on a hard drive somewhere because back in the day, you could download. I don't know how. I. I'm not like a techie. I just could. You could download your conversation. I have fights from, like, with high school boyfriends, like, on my computer, like, somewhere. And I. You are reminding me of how much fun it would be to read those, like, conflict resolution with, like, 14 year olds. Are you kidding? Like, what could be more amazing? Hilarious. We're in a deeply committed, homogenous relationship and we are gonna work our way through this conflict about the way you hugged Christina in the hallway between third and fourth period. Like, I just would die to read those. I should have dug them up for this conversation, but you just made me think of them.

[Alison Williams]

That's amazing, Alison. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Alison Williams]

I think you already shared an embarrassing story. But if another one, if you have one more that you wanna share, otherwise, we'll transition fully into your career.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, now that you've given the opportunity, she's like, well, then, now I've got to pull out a great one.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm like, now here's the really embarrassing one. Now the fart one is like, a light is an embarrassing story. It was like, I wanted to, like, leave the planet and go into settling on mountains or something. When it happened, I literally was like, well, I've done what I can here, and now I'm gonna see if Pluto is habitable. There are so many. I mostly, though, none of them are inherently embarrassing. Right? Like, that's what a lot of these stories have in common, is that the. It's that it's. The person that's having this experience is, like, just, like, shaking and vibrating with a desire to be different, not their, like, not feeling what they're feeling and having no context for their feelings. And so, like, all the stories, I feel like the farting story, if that happened with a friend of mine now, it would be hilarious and not embarrassing, but just funny. And when I was in ninth grade, we went on this retreat. This is older, but went on a retreat. And it's embarrassing on two levels, this story. And I think about it when I do interviews sometimes. We were asked. It was like a leadership retreat, whatever. Our school ended in ninth grade, weirdly. And then everyone went off to the final three years of high school elsewhere. And we were asked, like, what. What are your dreams in life? Like, what are your goals? And obviously, I knew all my answers to this, as we've already discussed, but I said, you know, I was sitting there trying to be like, dig deeper. Like, what do I want out of. If I'm a successful actor? Like, what would I like to achieve with that? And what I came up with is, like, I want to, like, be able to touch people and, like, reach them, but you're already smiling for the same reason that this was a terrible idea. And when the teacher asked, asked us to share, the part of me that needs to raise my hand and share was more powerful than my critical thinking skills. And I raised my hand enthusiastically and said, I want to touch people. And that is, like, not that embarrassing inherently, but in a classroom of, like, just all the, like, vibration of, like, horniness and nervousness and insecurity. Like, something like that is just like lighting a match in front of a cow's butt is the expression I'm reaching for, which has never been said, and I hope it's never said again.

[Nava Kavilan]

We'll give that a B.

[Penn Badgley]

That was. That's generous, Pen, honestly. And now I'm worried you're grading on a curve. I'm questioning your other grades. That was like, a core. My friends still remember that. And then I was so Upset by that moment that later I would. They asked people to raise their hand about something. Not to offer an answer, but just, like, raise your hand if you. Whatever. And I raised my hand, and I forgot to put it down for, like, a long time because I was just lost in thought. And then that became its own embarrassing thing, and people, like, talked about that, and now I'm like, that's not embarrassing. That's just, like, I was distracted. Like, leave me the fuck alone. But in the moment, you're like, I need to banish. I need to go on a walkabout in the Australian outback and really, like, think about who I am and what I want. Like, I left my hand up for an extra 10 seconds, like, after everyone else was done answering something. So I think that's what's so charming about these embarrassing stories, is that now we can be like, no, you're cool. You're good. Now we look how far we've come. I'd be able to navigate my way around that. Easy as pie. It wouldn't throw me off at all. But back then, like, just a core memory, like, one of those core memory marbles inside out just immediately formed, like.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah. That's so relatable.

[Penn Badgley]

Is it really? Were you so.

[Alison Williams]

No, Totally.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh.

[Alison Williams]

Anything. Like, the smallest things would embarrass me, and I would just, like, ruminate on it for so long.

[Sophie Ansari]

But, Nava, do you still feel. Because what Allison's saying, she's Be able to navigate embarrassing moments like that. Easy as pie. But you've talked about previously on this show. Feeling as an adult, like, more, maybe more embarrassing moments.

[Alison Williams]

Oh. I feel like embarrassing things happen to me all the time, but I don't dwell on them as long as I used to as a kid.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah. As a kid. It would be like I couldn't recover. I can recover.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm trying to think of the most embarrassing thing that's happened to me recently. Embarrassing is a word that's like.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's not on topic.

[Penn Badgley]

We're.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's your story.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I'd like to talk about that. I want to talk about. How long do you guys have?

[Alison Williams]

I'd really like to delve into this all day.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, bring us back on topic. A for keeping us on. Well, good hosting. Really good hosting. Keeping us on track.

[Alison Williams]

Let's talk about girls. So you said that was your first project, and if our research didn't betray us, you did. Funny or die. Is that kind of how you caught Judd Apatow's eye?

[Penn Badgley]

It was. You're so close. That's so close. It was a little bit of both. The actual thing that caught his eye was that I did a YouTube video where I sang the Mad Men theme song, but with the lyrics of Nature Boy layered on top. And it was like. It was after this, like, okay, go. Music video where it was all one fan.

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't know either of those. Reference. Like, I mean, I know what those are, but. Kid, what is that? What is the theme song to Mad Men? Is there a. Is there just a melody? Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I can keep going. I'm not gonna sing the entire song anyway. It was this really cool piece of music by RJD2. And I binged Mad Men the summer right after I graduated from college. And so it was just like, in my bones. And some friends of mine. Of mine were generous enough to, like, help collaborate to do these three live recorded music videos, where it was one take, live sound recording videos of things that had, like, some. Cause I had watched enough things go viral at that age. I was like, I think I can. If you add enough elements. Of course, I was forgetting the most important one, which is nepotism. And I'll get to that. But I was like, if you combine enough elements, like, you can kind of catch, like a. I don't know, a gust of wind and follow the momentum that something has that already exists. And so we put this video out, and I was kind of like, in a costume of the Ed Sullivan era, and it was stylized kind of like Mad Men and weirdly, Nature Boy by Nat King Cole, which is like an old standard layered really perfectly on top of the Mad Men theme song, which I discovered with working with this guy, Jay Wadley, who composed it with me, who's now, like, a very successful composer. And he and his company composed the theme song to the podcast Full Circle. Anyway. Wow, cool. So he. We made this video. I moved to la. Right before I moved to la. Two things happened. We finished the editing on this video, and I took a class on auditioning for camera and by a woman named Ellen Novak. Shout out. And so then I moved to LA. I put this video up online like, three or four days after. This is October 2010, and they had just decided to move casting for Marnie from New York to Los Angeles because they couldn't. They were positive Marnie lived in New York, and they just weren't finding the right vibe. And in the middle of this move on Huffington Post, because nepotism, someone said, my dad isn't newscaster. And so that became an extra element of my video that I didn't think about was going to make it worth sending posting was be like, look what this guy's daughter's up to, which is just how nepotism engines start. And Judd saw it posted somewhere. And I had met him at some point at some thing with my parents. Again, nepotism. And he was like, oh, my God, that. That's Marnie. Like, that's her. And then they reached out to have me come audition in la, and I had just moved there, so it was like, perfect timing. And I had just taken this class on auditioning for camera.

[Nava Kavilan]

So you were ready?

[Alison Williams]

You were ready.

[Penn Badgley]

I had a worksheet locked in preparation. I had a worksheet. I had a worksheet with steps to do, and I had a work notebook. And I was like, this is perfect. I can apply my new skills. I can follow all the steps, I can do all the things Ellen just taught me to do. And I went in and I was like, obviously, I'm not gonna get this. This is an HBO show. Like, this is my first audition, but I get to apply my new things or whatever. And it was just one of those experiences where immediately the chemistry just was palpable. And although I wouldn't have known to call it that yet, the dynamic between the two of us, me and Lena, we were doing our scenes together. They just were. They felt supernatural. And then they sent me out of the room to learn another scene, which is an actor you always know is a good sign. And I learned that scene and I came back in, I did another scene with her, and then they sent me out of the room to.it was someone else's time to audition. And then they were like, will you improvise a scene? And I was like, oh, my God, this is the only skill I have. Because in college, I was in an improv comedy group, and that was it. I was an English major. I didn't take acting classes or anything. And I had taken this camera class, auditioning camera class, which had been super helpful already. And I was like, oh, my God, now you're asking me to do improv. And that's all I know how to do. Like, this is crazy. So then Lena and I improvised a scene which was a fight, but they wanted the fight to resolve by the end. And I was like, oh, my God, you gave me the end of the scene. That's not even improv anymore. This is so easy. This is so nice. And then was the improv on the show?

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't recall. Like, I don't remember how you guys would structure things or, you know, it.

[Penn Badgley]

Was basically like it. The Judd Apatow school of filming was very much like, kind of what was deployed on our set. Eventually, it all got pared down a little bit, but very often the cadence of it was, like, you'd show up, you'd read the scene, you'd get it on its feet, and then you'd start. People would start throwing things in there, like, pretty quickly. And then a big part of it was alts. Like, you'd have a huge chunk of the writers room at Figure Village, and they would just be pitching alts for jokes while you were doing the scene. So someone would come in with a piece of paper and be like, could you say, like, I want to be cool? Like, Malala, I want to be cool, like, and then you just do, like, a series of proper nouns, and you try and see which one is the funniest. And so it was part of our show. It wasn't like we were improvising. It wasn't like Curb, but it was definitely a part of finding our way into scenes and figuring out if there were better moments to be found. But anyway, so that's where he found me in that YouTube video. And then between that moment and when, between shooting the pilot that November of 2010 and shooting the rest of the show, starting in, like, I think, April of 2011, I did some videos with Funny or Die, which is how that part was in that same era where I played Kate Middleton.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, it's so funny.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah. Which is very funny. Yeah, those were so, so great. Stick around. We'll be right back. Summer is in full swing, and I am so excited to try on some of the new Quince pieces that I ordered, because, yes, when I want to upgrade my wardrobe, Quint is definitely one of the places I turn to. Their clothes are timeless, they feel luxurious, they look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just clicks. Quince has everything I need for summer, like 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Luxe Swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. The best part is that everything with Quint is half the cost of similar brands. They work directly with top artisans, and they cut out the middleman. This way, they can give you luxury without the markup. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. This summer, I decided to go red, and I picked up a little red silk dress and a red swimsuit and I'm really excited to try them. I might wear them together. I might wear them on their own. Just have to check out my Instagram and find out. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince go to quince.com podcrush for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com podcrushed to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com podcrust this is an ad by BetterHelp.

[David Duchovny]

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[Penn Badgley]

You don't know me, but you know a version of my story.

[David Duchovny]

Because by now we've all felt the.

[Penn Badgley]

Impact of senseless gun violence.

[Nava Kavilan]

I think a stray bullet flew past me because I hear the it was.

[Penn Badgley]

That horrible thing feeling of dread.

[Alison Williams]

Something's wrong.

[Penn Badgley]

Four years ago my dad was killed in a mass shooting. My podcast Senseless is about moving forward after the unthinkable. Senseless From Lemonada Media Premiering June 17th.

[Alison Williams]

Let'S talk about Rose. Your performance in get out is incredible and it does become sort of more terrifying the longer that you sit with it. And I am curious how you and Jordan Peele went about layering that evil. Especially knowing that audience might not watch it or clock it. They would watch it, but they wouldn't see it or clock it the first time around, but that you would want them to maybe register it the second time around. How did you guys kind of layer that in?

[Penn Badgley]

That question makes me so happy. That's like, I love talking about this cause I'm really proud of it. I was lucky enough to get involved and get out super early. He had seen Girls, so he had seen my work. And then he. And then I was Peter Pan. I played Peter Pan on live television in one of those live action musicals. And he was like, she'll do anything. And he was like, whoever plays this character has to play someone, like, so abhorrent. And then just like, but commit to it hard. And also, you're kind of like telling on your own people and like, you really have to be like down for the cause and like into it. Because if you have half heartedly play this person, it's not gonna work. And he was like, oh, she's flying towards Christopher Walken with a sword. Like, she'll. She's down. And he was right. And so from the moment I came on board, I was like, I wanna make her as evil as possible. I don't want my people, once the flip has happened, to give her any outs. Like, I don't want anyone to have any room to excuse her behavior. They still did it, by the way. They were like, she's been brainwashed. Whatever. White girls are just actual victims of other white girls.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And so we started talking about like, you know, who she was, how she did this work on behalf of her family, what her techniques were, who it must mean that she is when she's herself, and then extrapolating that into building the character that she's playing for the whole movie. And so I started by thinking of who is. We called her Ro, just to keep it kind of straight in our minds. But I was like, who is Ro, actually? And the person on the bed with the Froot loops and the hair and the brown eyes is who I imagined her to be. And then she, to get Chris's love transformed into Rose with like these bangs, these like, trust me, bangs, and those blue contact lenses, which I wore brown ones for Ro, which you can't really tell. This sort of like just chillingly dark eyes kind of. And she just had this like, vibe that she didn't at all have in real life. But she knew that that's what it would take to entice Chris. And then doing the photo shoot with all of her other victims was kind of an exercise in seeing, like, how she's transformed herself into all these other characters who would entice all these other people into their familial insanity. I don't know what else to call it. And that process was really fun. The one thing that was really hard was by the time we shot the bulk of my scenes in her like, darker self was like, towards the end of the movie when we were having so much fun, we'd gotten so close. We were shooting in Alabama super fast, low budget, like, moving quickly. We were a family. And for those scenes, I had to literally hate everyone. I had to look at someone and feel either total indifference, which is, like, more chilling, almost like indifference to your existence, period, or hatred. And getting myself to that place was like, the closest I've ever taken myself to doing any kind of method acting. Really what it looked like is I just found a place that I could be alone. And I'd listen to let the bodies hit the floor on repeat and just be pitch black and just go to a really dark place. And I'd come out, I'd do the scenes, and then the minute they were over, I would pop the contacts out, come back to life and be like, thank God. Because it was a really fucked up place. And I am glad I didn't have to do it for very long in that movie. But that's what it took to play someone who would, like, do the things that she was doing and that Jordan was so game for that whole thing and for really bifurcating her. Like, when I first. The first draft I read, I don't think she was as split as she eventually became. And she also. I think in the first draft, she died earlier. She was the one assisting her dad with the surgery. So she died when Caleb's character died rather than later on the road. And I think, like, making it kind of about that final betrayal, that final moment of like, can you trust me? Will you believe me if I transform back into this other version of myself? Was something that we were really excited about. But, yeah, as you can tell, I still feel. It feels like yesterday that we shot that movie. It's like, incredible experience.

[Sophie Ansari]

You did such an incredible job. There's a clip that I saw recently, and I was, like, gonna say it's viral. And I was like, is it viral or is this just like all. My whole feed right now is just Alice.

[Penn Badgley]

I know. I'm so sorry. I'm sure that was what happen.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, I love it.

[Penn Badgley]

They're like, I guess you're obsessed with her. Rose send you nonstop content.

[Sophie Ansari]

But it's the scene where you're talking to. Or Rose is talking to Rod and he's like, freaking out, where's Chris? And you're talking to him worried, showing that you're worried for Chris but completely indifferent, like you said. Or your face is just so flat. And I don't really have a question about it. Just Wanted to say, it's so impressive, Honestly, as I was brushing my teeth last night, I was like, can I. Could I do that? I was like, let me try in the movie.

[Penn Badgley]

I love the, like, willingness to try acting in this podcast. It's the best.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's doing great, sweetie.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. That was one of those things that I read it in the script, and then I was like, on set one day, I was like, how do you picture this happening? And he was like, kind of like that. Like, can you emote with your voice and not at all with your face? And I was like, I'm gonna go try. I had a few things like that to do on the Megan sequel. Actually, a couple moments in particular that were really like. They all feel like this to me. Like, you're trying to do two things simultaneously, and those are like, I mean, I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. And that feels like having two brains going at the same time. But that was really fun. That scene was really fun to figure out. It just was mirror. It was the same thing you did. It was like, just working it out in the mirror.

[Alison Williams]

Sorry, this is a really, like, maybe too heavy quote, but what you just said about how you had to be in the dark and what you had to listen to just made me think of this quote. And I feel like what you said helped me realize its meaning even more powerfully than I ever have. This is one of my favorite quotes on racism. It says, racism retards the unfoldment of the boundless potentialities of its victims, corrupts its perpetrators, and blights human progress. And what you said is just so clear that it also. The person who embodies racism or carries out the racist act, it just blights your progress. It puts you in the darkness 100%. Yeah. That made it so clear. So thank you for sharing that.

[Penn Badgley]

What a powerful quote. Where is that from?

[Alison Williams]

It's from a body called the Universal House of Justice. It's one of my favorite quotes on racism.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Alison Williams]

How it impacts everyone involved.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, that's like. Yeah, I think we thought about that a lot. Like, who are these corrupted souls, these dying personages, basically, what would it do to you to feel this way about people? Who would you be? And coming up with this chilling image of her in her, like, Oxford and her khakis and her little Keds and her milk and her colorful cereal and her white milk, separate and, you know, like, yeah, we were definitely thinking about the decay of humanity that something as pernicious as racism can does always cause. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, maybe it's a good time to pivot to Megan.

[Alison Williams]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

You have done these genre pictures, these horror pictures that are all. I mean, genre at its best is like explicit social commentary. Right. I mean, we've known that for generations of filmmaking. But I think with get out, that was. It was not the first to use a genre device as an explicit social commentary, but it did it undoubtedly more deftly and more brilliantly and more novelly than it had ever been done. And I hadn't actually thought about this until this moment, but I wonder if it ushered in the era we have now. It certainly had to have played a role in the era we have now, where you consider every A24 film is like a dramatic horror, which is some kind of commentary on human nature and civilization, society and its current state. It really is. We live in an era of explicit social commentary with brilliant use of genre pictures. And so Megan is like, for you at least, the evolution of that. And as I understand. I mean, aren't you. Were you an executive producer on the first one, too?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

So I don't know how much a part of its sort of generation you were, or you just signed on and then really, like, love the premise and just help to deepen it. But, I mean, there's a number of things in it that I felt were pretty novel. This connection between technology and parenting. And then you, like, you're talking about attachment theory. Like, I. Yeah, I can't think of another film where we're, like, really talking about attachment theory in a way that doesn't feel either super esoteric or, like, really didactic and kind of like, oh, shut up. You know, it's like, it's just enough.

[Penn Badgley]

It's like the premise of a joke. Yeah, yeah, it's enough.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's just enough that it really makes sense in a really good horror picture. You know what I mean? And so just tell us about that, how you became aware of the project, what excited you in it, and what's bringing you into the next iteration of it.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I. So I can't really watch horror movies. Like, I really like capital H horror movies. I am a real scaredy cat. I'm anxious. I am a catastrophizer. I have tons of intrusive thoughts, I think more than we're supposed to. And so horror movies are sort of just like literal nightmare fuel for me and daymare fuel. So I never would have imagined in a million years that I would make so many movies in this genre. But it's for exactly the reasons you just Outlined that I keep coming back because I find it kind of intoxicating to take these subjects that people worry about privately or talk about in a whispery, kind of nervous way and put them in this, in the Megan case, like, kind of campy, hilarious, and like unexpected and bizarre packaging. But the subject matter is still in there. Like the question.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, it's very serious. Yeah, I think it's very. Like, actually, I found it to be. It's not just, of course, you know, this, and I think people understand this, but it's really not just campy. Look, I wept in the scene. I don't necessarily. I don't really want to give it away, but the first time that we see Megan do what she can do with Violet's character. What's her name again? Katie.

[Penn Badgley]

Katie.

[Nava Kavilan]

That is an impressive scene. That's an impressive turn.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it is. A. And I like, you know, as you have. I. Okay, so I was pregnant filming the first Megan, which I never talked about, because when I know that someone's pregnant in something, that is all I am looking at is their pregnant body. And we did a couple days of reshoots where I was then a mom, but for the whole process. Well, no, the process of making Megan started before I was pregnant and then before I was even thinking about becoming pregnant through my pregnancy. And then we filmed it in my second trimester and.

[Nava Kavilan]

Whoa.

[Penn Badgley]

So I was literally contemplating all of these things about parenthood and staring down the barrel of motherhood and feeling in some ways as unprepared as Gemma, and then in other ways, like, so grateful to, like, love kids, like, deeply, deeply, and be so excited to become a mom, unlike Gemma. And watching Gerard, who was already a dad, he has two boys. And watching him, the writer, director, director and co writer with Akilah, watching him contemplate these issues, like the interfacing of kids and technology and also the temptation as a parent to use technology to help educate your kids if your kid asks. It happened yesterday. My son asked about how rocket launches work. And I was like, unfortunately, you have a mom that doesn't fucking know how rockets launch. I'm sorry, you won the stupid mom lottery. Let's do the voice version of ChatGPT. So I was like, could you explain how a rocket launch works for a three and a half year old? And this very affable voice chimes in and starts explaining this to Arlo and he's like, so excited to get these answers.

[Nava Kavilan]

Really smart. So you. You had it. You had it. Describe it for a three year old.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, that's so smart.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's very smart. I wouldn't even think to do that well.

[Penn Badgley]

And I also was like, you're going to be getting questions from a three and a half year old. Could you slow down your. Could you leave room for more pauses as he's trying to formulate his question? And it made the adjustment, which I found really interesting. But watching the look on Arlo's face, watching just. It's like a thought bubble is the graphic. That's it. It's not very interactive. There's nothing really to look at. But he literally. His eyes opened wider in response to this orb, like, telling him the things he wanted to know. And I cut it off after, like, one question. Cause I was like, this is. This is exactly that scene. Like, exactly. I was like, I've made a movie about this scene.

[Nava Kavilan]

You should know better. You're failing C D. Well, I had.

[Penn Badgley]

To try because I, again, don't know about rocket launches. And I was like, I don't know what gases need. And then he. And then he wanted to know about gravity, because I've introduced that idea stupidly. We were talking about space, and now he's like, doesn't understand why he's not floating in the air. And I also don't understand why he's not floating in there. Totally. I know it has to do with, like, it's mass, Whatever.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's just mass.

[Penn Badgley]

But. So then we were. The next day, it was like, okay, now we can ask ChatGPT about gravity. But then we have to turn it off. One question.

[Alison Williams]

That's a good quota.

[Penn Badgley]

So incredible, this tool. And it's also highly, highly addictive. His brain is not capable of understanding what this thing is and that it's not a person and that it's an algorithm and all of the things that it's hard for us to understand. Like, I thank our robot vacuum constantly. I'm like, thank you. Her name is Panagana. Arlo named her, like, thanks, Panagana. Like, that saved me time. You're the best. And I'm like, what are you doing? This is a tiny circle on your floor. And I'm like, I've learned that lesson, too. Anyway, so I feel like the experience of making this movie was one of deepening investment in every way. When I came onto it, it was already in good shape, but it was in its, like. I think Gerard had done one or two passes on the script. So it was pretty early, and they brought me on and we just tried to deepen the, like, you Know, at that stage you have the beats kind of, you know, where the movie's gonna go plot wise, but you're just deepening the emotional investment into the characters and the storyline and what happens to everybody. And so it was a huge, like, learning curve. And it was the first time it was an actual, like, EP on something. And I, I just became more and more involved because I literally became a mom over the course of making the movie. And then with the sequel, I was a producer on it. And this is confusing because in TV producers have less power than EPs and in movies it switched. But so I got. And I was not demoted, I was given an upgrade. And I was even more involved from the very first conversations we had as a creative team about where this movie should go. And the thing that felt obvious to us, which was kind of so interesting, that everyone that was intimately involved in making it the first time was like, well, so we should put all of these people and robots in the context of an action movie. And everyone was like, yes, of course, and make it a thriller and make it as creepy and scary as the first one, but also just this exhilarating ride where when it starts, you can't possibly guess where it's gonna end up. And taking this Persona of Megan and extrapolating her into other genres and other places, and then taking this character I played of Gemma, who's an engineer and a robo, and putting her in the context of an action movie is objectively funny. And people finding themselves in a genre that they weren't born in, I think is always entertaining. And I feel like with this movie, again, Gerard was mining his experience as a dad. And now the conversation around AI has evolved. We're like in a different world than we were in when we made the first Megan. And so the stakes are even higher and it's presence is even more permeating our daily life. And it's not even an if, it's now like a when and. And to what extent, and that's kind of what the movie is contemplating. It's like, what do we owe these algorithms that we bring to life, so to speak, and that we bring into existence? Like, what is the transaction? It's not. It can't just be unilateral. This is a relationship. And what does it mean? And what does the stewardship require of us and all of those things? And so once again, this movie is kind of bringing the conversation into the present day, the conversation that we're having as a culture, but having it in the context of a movie That I think is. Is so much fun. And I love the truest testament and pen. You'll know this, like, when you've been working on a movie intimately, you've seen, like, 10, 12 cuts of it, 15, like, full assemblies, like, all the way through. If you're not sick of watching it at this point. If I'm, like, looking forward to watching it at the premiere, like, that's a sign of the fact that I just really like this movie. Despite the fact that I have to stare at my own face for such a large portion of it, I still really enjoy this movie, and I hope people will, too. And I think that people who loved the first one are gonna be thrilled to come back. But the thing that's really funny about this one is I found myself realizing while we were making it that for all the people in my Life who own T2 and RoboCop and Aliens, they're going to love this movie. And I don't know that if after finishing the first Megan, I don't know if people would be like, you know what? I bet my friend Jeff, who loves RoboCop is gonna love the sequel to this movie. But it somehow it brings Jeff into the fold, which makes me really happy.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's really interesting to hear. I don't know that we need to worry about the algorithms as much as we need to worry about our humane relationships amongst all people. So, you know, like, all the different biases and prejudices that are implicitly, unintentionally coded into these algorithms. Yeah, that's because of a. An undeveloped human capacity to really include others. And I actually think that if we. That we. That. That trying to focus so much on how we treat the algorithm is possibly in a fool's errand, because we need to learn more about how to treat each other. And then the algorithms will follow, much like animals, like human. Human relations in balance will then allow our relationship to the planet to be in balance, you know?

[Penn Badgley]

And you have also just now, maybe unwittingly outlined the dramatic tension of the movie, which is the sequel. Yeah. Which is that. But alongside her deep concern for the stewardship of these algorithms, Gemma is maybe not paying attention.

[Nava Kavilan]

A terrible mom.

[Penn Badgley]

She should to the primary relationship that she has in her life and the algorithm slash child who depends on her. You know, like, I'm using algorithm. That's confusing because Megan's also in the movie. But Katie, she's not. She's concerned about all children and all AI and putting limitations on all of the AI and keeping kids safe and away from it. And she is perhaps not connected enough to the child who lives in her home. And she is literally responsible for raising into the world. And maybe she does some growth around that pen. Maybe our movie contemplates that a little bit. But I feel very excited about your question because I think that one of the things about humans that is so painful is that it's that quote of, like, wherever I go, there I am. You know, like, we just put ourselves. We can design something to be as inhuman as possible, and it's still going to be human because it was made at our fingertips. And I think that is so worth considering. Why is it easier for us to find compassion for, you know, the small, inanimate AI objects in our life, like those little seals that have giant eyes that. That people bring to nursing homes that rather than like, human people that are in their midst. And that's something maybe we'll explore in a third movie if we're lucky enough to make one.

[Nava Kavilan]

If. Do I get a producer credit or.

[Penn Badgley]

Created by. I think now you transcend Gerard. You just. You transcend Akilah and James Wan. You take their credit. Creative, this world.

[Nava Kavilan]

Love it.

[Sophie Ansari]

Speaking of parenting, you.

[Penn Badgley]

Good segue, Sophie. Really good.

[Sophie Ansari]

You started a wonderful podcast called Landlines with two of your best friends who. And the premise, or what you say in the first episode, is that you kind of. You didn't separate, but you kind of found your way back to each other and back to your best friendship in motherhood and the intensity of motherhood, which I thought was so sweet. And I can relate. I have in particular one friend who we really reconnected again once I joined her, once I had a child. And I was curious if you could just tell us a little bit more about the podcast for those who want to listen.

[Penn Badgley]

So the landline name comes from the fact that our friendship was, like, built over landline telephones in middle school, when we would conference call each other and prank call other people together and basically just talk at length. Two of our friends had weekly, weekly phone calls about wedding planning in middle school.

[Nava Kavilan]

Middle school, you say?

[Penn Badgley]

A standing weekly phone call on the family landline to talk about everything is Chef's Kiss middle school fodder. So basically, we entered this stage of life kind of a little bit staggered, but mostly at the same moment and clung to each other like static electricity in a way that we hadn't through our 20s. In your 20s are kind of a lonely pursuit where you're kind of, like, surrounded by people but completely isolated in your experience. And there's something about entering this stage of life where I suddenly was like, I need everyone around me to also be having this experience of life. And so sorry. Of having this experience of life and talk to me about it. I need to know what their experience is. I need to. I need to tell them about mine. I need to know. I need to just be in this community with these people that I've known my entire life. And this is, like, of deep importance to me. I have two friends who happen to be experts in fields that I found, like, very, very relevant. My friend Hope is an early childhood educator, and she's like, a badass teacher, knows it all. Reggio inspired teaching and. And our other best friend, Jamie, is a therapist, and she worked closely with young boys at one point, but has worked and now works with couples. But. And I found their wisdom, like, so useful. It was so nice in your friend chat to have a teacher and a therapist. Are you kidding? Perfect. Every attachment theory. I called Jamie attachment theory, like, early, when Arlo was like, three months old. And I was like, he's anxious attached, Jamie. He doesn't. He doesn't react when I leave the room. And she's like, allison, I'm gonna punch you in the face. He's fine. You're fine. This is not attachment theory. I need to give you a background on this. And it's so useful. And with Hope talking about moments where his behavior is surprising to me and how to handle that, she's such an expert. Dealing with it in a room full of children that aren't your own really will download that into you. And so I was kind of like, if everyone who feels so isolated in this experience could have access to this group chat that I found so, like, life affirming and saved my experience of early motherhood, then I feel like the world would be a little bit better. And I think there's a lot of shame in parenthood and in this stage of life, and people just experience it quietly because that's where shame can blossom. And our thesis is that if we're having the conversations we have in our chat on this podcast, people might find it and feel a little bit less isolated in their experience of parenthood, of being someone with female hormones, which are. Oh, my God. Of wondering whether or not to get Botox, my answer was obviously yes. I mean, haven't seen any of this shit move for this whole interview by design, you know, like, all of the things that we talk about, we're like, let's let other people into our conversation. In case they aren't lucky enough like we are to have this group of girls, like, they can join our. Join our group. And so that's what we're up to. And we have some amazing guests. And I'm just like, podcasting is really fun and it's also a lot of work and it has been talk to.

[Nava Kavilan]

Us in four years, sister.

[Penn Badgley]

I know. Well, that's what I'm saying is like. Well, what I'm saying is like, I have been a huge consumer of podcasts from the very beginning. WTF was the. And Comedy Bang Bang were the two first podcasts I listened to, like way, way back in the day. And I to only now really appreciate the amount of work that goes into producing a podcast is. I mean, there's no other thing I appreciate so much and know so little about the actual making of. So I feel that in and of itself has been really interesting and gratifying, but we're really lucky to be able to do a creative venture like you guys with people we've been friends with for a long time. It feels like a hack to be able to take our friendship and put it in this new context of like, business partners. It's really fun, it's hilarious, and we're just absolutely loving it. And our group chat has just been a stream of photos of all of us from middle school. And that in and of itself was worth launching the podcast just to start this photo dump from everybody. So.

[Nava Kavilan]

So, yeah, well, you know that we need one of those for this.

[Alison Williams]

Perfect.

[Nava Kavilan]

We need one of your middle school.

[Penn Badgley]

I think I can muster one up for sure. Yep, they are tech avail, those photos.

[Alison Williams]

Alison, that's the perfect transition to our final question. If you go back to 12 year old Allison, what would you say or do?

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, I would give her a hug. That's what everyone says. But that would be my first instinct. And she'd be like, what? Who are you? You're older than me. We have to skip that part. And to get my logic brain out of this question, always after that, I would give just very specific instructions. I would say invest. No, I'm kidding. I would say, you're not going to do this because being where the action is is too important to you. But I want you to remember that someone told you this and maybe you'll clue into it sooner than you would otherwise. But the theater people are your people and the improv people are your people. And just let those people be your people and just go hard at those groups of people who embrace you for all of Your weirdness and kind of block it all off otherwise. And that's what I would say.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's perfect.

[Penn Badgley]

Is that too specific?

[Alison Williams]

No.

[Nava Kavilan]

She gives that an A minus at least.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank God. I was like, I don't think I landed that. That jump pretty quick.

[Sophie Ansari]

You did.

[Alison Williams]

Allison, I enjoyed talking to you so much.

[Sophie Ansari]

Thank you so much.

[Nava Kavilan]

And I did as well.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you so much. I love your show. I really like what's more universal than trading these experiences? I've really, like, fallen in love with people I've already really admired while listening to you guys talk about them. And the three of you have the best chemistry, and you ask such good questions. You all have your own areas of curiosity, and it's. It's just so good. And now that I'm making one, I really appreciate why it's good. And three is hard. Three is a hard number.

[Sophie Ansari]

Three is hard.

[Penn Badgley]

I get that now. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm excited to listen, to keep listening. I can't wait for more episodes of Landlines.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. The next one is about our hormones and, like, what the fuck? And it's just anecdotal. It's just us talking amongst ourselves. And the next one is about aging and.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, perfect.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Those are insecurities.

[Nava Kavilan]

We'll keep a lookout. And listeners, keep your ears peeled. Again. Thank you.

[Alison Williams]

You can watch Megan 2.0 in theaters now. You can listen to Landlines everywhere. You get your podcasts and you can follow Allison Williams online at.

[Penn Badgley]

AW.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm a listener. I love this show.

[Alison Williams]

Thank you so much.

[Sophie Ansari]

We paid her to say that.

[Penn Badgley]

Not enough, by the way. We'll get into that later.

[Sophie Ansari]

But, parents, we know the childcare crisis is not just another headline. It's a daily struggle playing out in millions of homes across this country. I'm Gloria Rivera, and this is no One Is Coming to Save Us. This season, we're demanding a child care system that actually works for kids, parents and educators. We mean free birth to five, full day nearby, easy to apply. No one is coming to Save Us Season 5 from Lemonada Media out now.