Aly & AJ

Summary

Podcrushed – Aly & AJ

Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guests: Aly & AJ Michalka
Release Date: January 7, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Podcrushed welcomes Aly & AJ Michalka, the pop-rock sister duo known for their early days on Disney Radio and their journey into more mature, indie-leaning music. The conversation explores their shared childhood in showbiz, the complexities and blessings of working as sisters, their pivotal moments in music and acting, and how they’ve navigated fame, heartbreak, and identity from adolescence to adulthood. The tone is intimate, playful, and heartfelt—like friends reminiscing in a kitchen—offering both nostalgia and new insight for fans old and new.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sisterhood, Family, and Early Bonds

[09:07 – 19:00]

• Aly & AJ discuss their deep sisterly bond, tracing it back to their upbringing and their parents’ efforts to foster closeness.
• They recall moving between LA and Seattle, being homeschooled, and their early focus on music and acting.
• AJ: "Everything was a game. Going to dinner with our parents was a game. Reading a menu was a game. Ordering… every single thing." [15:55]
• Their best friend Raymond, met at age 12 at Young Actors Space, remains in their lives decades later.
• Both reflect on how sharing games and creative play as children built the basis for their enduring collaboration.

2. Early Careers in Entertainment

[19:00 – 32:00]

• Aly booked her first TV show "The Guardian" at age 12, calling it a formative mentorship experience.
  • "I learned a ton from Farrah [Fawcett]... [Dabney Coleman] was a mentor for many, many years." [19:00]
• Both share memories of acting classes at Young Actor Space and their first forays into songwriting, noting how guitar sparked their creativity differently than piano.

3. The Disney Channel Years

[28:14 – 44:00]

• Aly recounts her audition process and pilot for “Phil of the Future,” including the now-iconic “shrinking Raviv” episode that led to their first original song on TV.
  • “I don’t even know how I had the balls to be like, hey, writers and creators of the show. I write music with my sister…” [39:00]
• Their first song, "Protecting Me," was about their parents but fit the script by coincidence.
• The success of the song led to their record deal, marking them as pioneers in the Disney actor-to-popstar pipeline (after Hilary Duff).
• “I was like, no, no, no. I’m in a duo with my sister...” [40:22]

4. Navigating Fame, Friendship, and Love

[53:46 – 61:29]

• Both sisters reminisce about being “late bloomers” in dating, with their first crushes and relationships often shaped by their work environments and the pressures of young stardom.
• Aly reflects on a poignant, short-lived teen romance with a fellow actor, which became the inspiration for two songs on their first album.
• AJ’s relationship with Joe Jonas is discussed lightly, highlighting the close-knit nature of the Disney music scene and the experience of growing up in the spotlight.

5. Collaborative Synergy and Sibling Bands

[46:13 – 48:53]

• The group discusses the unique chemistry of sibling bands, pointing out that working with a sister bypasses a lot of common band drama and ego clashing.
  • “There’s no ego in the game, so we’re willing to just kind of own whatever that is and move on…” [47:12]
• Their deep trust allows for real creative partnership, which they credit as the secret to their duo’s longevity.

6. Music Evolution, Hiatus, and Comeback

[72:15 – 74:52]

• The sisters talk about the evolution of their sound—from "Rush" and "Potential Breakup Song" to their new work.
• They note their core “lifer” fanbase and reflect on their decade-long hiatus, expressing some regret but recognizing the value of their artistic journey.
  • “I would tell my 12-year-old self... don’t go away. Just keep touring, even if it’s not new music.” [92:27]
• Aly: “It made us grow up a little faster than we would have. But we also moved out of our parents’ house when we were like 21 and 23, which is late.” [90:16]

7. Motherhood & Creativity: Silver Deliverer

[75:24 – 86:36]

• Aly shares her transformative home birth experience, and how, just a week postpartum, she returned to the studio to record "Silver Deliverer," bringing her newborn son along.
• “Cutting vocals while he’s feeding… in the control room… it was a time capsule of that energy that we were able to experience together.” [81:25–84:04]
• Themes of motherhood, femininity, and life transitions are embedded in their new album, shaped in real-time by family and community.

8. Tour Life and Looking Ahead

[86:36 – 88:51]

• The duo teases their upcoming "Places to Run" 2026 tour—an extension of the Silver Deliverer tour, with new setlists, visuals, and more immersive experiences.
• AJ’s son will join the road, continuing the family-bands legacy.

9. Advice to Their Younger Selves

[89:02 – 92:54]

• Aly: “I think I would tell myself to embrace and hold onto the childlike wonder in life longer than even most people want to hold onto it for… soak up every moment, don’t grow up too fast.” [89:20]
• AJ: “Don’t go away. Just keep touring… even if it’s not new music. You know, keep going out there, keep doing shows.” [92:27]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On sibling collaboration:
  “When you’re siblings, there’s a little bit less ego involved, so it’s easier to define people’s strengths and weaknesses…” —Aly, [47:12]
• On early music and TV synergy:
  “I was like, hey, writers and creators of the show, I write music with my sister, and I think I have a perfect song for this episode.” —AJ, [39:00]
• On feeling like outsiders among pop acts:
  “We never really, like, cracked the Billboard 10… But there’s such a core following who have stuck with us since the beginning.” —Aly, [72:23]
• On motherhood and music:
  “I was holding the baby and cutting vocals while he’s feeding. It was just a time capsule of that energy.” —Aly, [81:25–84:04]
• On tour life with a toddler:
  “He's just like a little road dog… it'll be a cool childhood, you know? He’ll probably be so over it or say, ‘I have to do this with my life.’” —AJ, [88:37–88:51]
• On advice to their younger selves:
  “Don’t grow up too fast… soak up every moment.” —Aly, [89:20]
  “Don’t go away. Just keep touring… even if it’s not new music.” —AJ, [92:27]

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Timestamps – Important Segments

• Sibling Bonding & Childhood [09:07–19:00]
  Life in LA/Seattle, best friends, family dynamics
• Working in Entertainment as Kids [19:00–32:00]
  Early roles, acting classes, first songwriting
• Disney Pipeline & First Album [28:14–44:00]
  "Phil of the Future" anecdotes, double audition for record deals
• Navigating Young Fame [53:46–61:29]
  Dating, heartbreak, first loves, Joe Jonas
• Collaborative Process of Sibling Bands [46:13–48:53]
  Insights and philosophy on artistic partnership
• Viral Comeback and Musical Growth [72:15–74:52]
  TikTok resurgence, audience changes, evolving sound
• Motherhood & Silver Deliverer [75:24–86:36]
  Home birth, recording with a newborn, creative process
• Touring as Moms and Next Steps [86:36–88:51]
• Advice to Their Younger Selves [89:02–92:54]

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a warm, insightful look at Aly & AJ’s intertwined personal and professional lives. Fans get rare, candid stories behind the television shows, heartbreaks, and songs that shaped two unique careers. In true Podcrushed style, the episode is both nostalgic and deeply encouraging—a lesson in the enduring power of sibling love, imagination, and staying true to your roots.

Transcript

[Allie Machalka]

I met a guy at Disneyland when I was 13.

[AJ Machalka]

13 maybe. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

And we met Disneyland.

[Penn Badgley]

That's like a 13 year old's version of being picked up at a bar. Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm Nava.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been

[Nava Kavilan]

your middle school besties planning elaborate pranks on the principal's office.

[Allie Machalka]

Shh, shh.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome. Welcome to PodCrushed. I am with you today, joined by only 50% of my co hosts.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, that.

[Penn Badgley]

The old Czech's notes, which.

[Nava Kavilan]

How do you say your name again?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, really. It's hardly ringing a bell anymore.

[Nava Kavilan]

Naval can never get that right.

[Penn Badgley]

Navikavilin.

[Allie Machalka]

Woohoo.

[Penn Badgley]

What I hear the word on the street is that today is a very special day for any true crusherino Krusherinsky. Cause it's a deep cut here. Our sort of fourth, you know, he's like. He's the elephant in the room. Sometimes he's. Sometimes he's the skeleton in the closet,

[Nava Kavilan]

sometimes the floating image over us above our heads.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. Tommy Kavlan. That was dad. Super charismatic dad, who we've shouted out a number of times and in a number of ways. It's his birthday today.

[Allie Machalka]

Yay.

[Nava Kavilan]

Happy birthday. We love you, Tommy.

[AJ Machalka]

Happy birthday.

[Nava Kavilan]

I would say instead of a song in honor of my dad, I want you to tell your favorite joke that my dad has ever told you to the podcast.

[Penn Badgley]

So Tommy is a. Is like he's truly from another time and place because he tells jokes, like, in a way that, you know, I don't want to. I don't want to denigrate the comedy, but it's like he. It's like they shouldn't be funny. But he is phenomenal. His delivery is.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's what makes you laugh.

[Penn Badgley]

I laugh. I laugh harder with him than anyone I can think of. Truly.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's so sweet.

[Penn Badgley]

His jokes and his jokes are good. But then I get nervous to tell them myself because it is really.

[Nava Kavilan]

Because you're not Tommy Cavill. But we'll see. You'll do your best.

[Penn Badgley]

So I'm gonna try here. I'm gonna try here. And if you got kids in the room, this one's not for the kids. Yeah, but it's not that bad.

[Nava Kavilan]

Walk them out. Walk them out.

[Sophie Ansari]

Walk them out.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So there's a supernatural convention. Lovers of the supernatural of every sort and kind. The paranormal.

[Sophie Ansari]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

And the charismatic quasi cult like leader of the convention greets everyone, introduces themselves and says, I wanna Know who here has ever seen a ghost? Show of hands. Raise your hand if you have seen a ghost. And a surprising number of hands go up. And before they can share their stories, he says, okay, I want to know who here has smelled a ghost. And fewer hands raised, but a good number. He says, all right. Okay. I want to know who here has ever touched a ghost. Still fewer hands raised, but there's, let's say, eight. And then he says, okay, all right, we're not done yet here. I want to know who here has tasted a ghost. And a few uncertain looks, but still we get five hands going straight up. He says, all right, this might strike you as odd, but I'm gonna ask one final question. Who here in this room has ever engaged in sexual intercourse with a ghost? And there's a murmur in the crowd. Disbelief, shock. And finally, in the back, one tiny little hand raises up. It's wavering, but then it becomes firm. And so the leader marches with his microphone down the aisle, the spotlight following him. And it lands on this man. And he says, sir, am I to understand that you have had sexual intercourse with a ghost? And he looks up at him and pushes his glasses up and says, ghost? I thought you said goat. See, it doesn't feel right. It didn't work.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, it's cute. It's cute. When Tommy says it, it's an old man, so he's like a little old man.

[Penn Badgley]

But your version works.

[Nava Kavilan]

Your version works. I liked it. That was very risky.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm definitely not a joke teller. I'm definitely not a joke teller of that kind. This is why Tommy Kavlan is. He's the goat. Actually, he is the goat.

[Nava Kavilan]

Not the goat. That the man had sex with the goat. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Just to clarify, Tommy is probably right now. He's just like, this is not funny at all. I am horrified. This is how I'm being introduced.

[Nava Kavilan]

So today we are joined by Pen's old pals, Allie and AJ Machalka, the pop rock sisters who you know from their early days, singing hooks that blew up on Disney Radio, and their more recent era of delicate indie leaning alt pop. If you don't know them, you are about to know AJ because she is going to be in the upcoming season of White Lotus, the one set in France Cannot wait. Literally. So excited. Last year, Ali and AJ released Silver Deliverer and its companion ep, More Silver Intimate records that they made in the hills of Topanga. And they have been busy since their recent headline run raised over $100,000 for every town for gun safety. And they just announced the places to run 2026 Tour, a 40 day sprint from Charlottesville to Anaheim capped off with a Bonnaroo set in June. I'm going to be at the Anaheim show. Come, let's meet. Let's say hi. We loved having them on. It felt like talking to old friends. Like we were all just like sitting in their kitchen, getting to know each other. It was so nice. They're so friendly and sweet and down to earth. We loved having Allie and AJ on. It was like being in their kitchen with them, hanging out with our own sisters. So fun. You're going to love this episode. Stick around.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[AJ Machalka]

Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me. The show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonada Media is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Penn Badgley]

We do typically start at 12. What's good with you guys? I mean, as far as we're aware. I mean you must have been making music together when at least one of you was 12 years old, right? I don't know. So we want to hear, like, the sort of the lead up, this snapshot of you guys before you signed, you know, because that was squarely in your adolescence. But then I think we also. What we usually want is just like the kind of the everyday snapshot of 12. And of course, you're not the same age. You're not twins, so you have different experiences, different times, and it might relate to each other differently. So I don't know. Should we start with. Should we start with oldest? Youngest? I don't know how to do this. I've only done it once before, and I think it was with the Jonas Brothers. So I don't. So I don't want to be political here. Do you want to do Rock Paper Scissors for it?

[AJ Machalka]

You're one amoeba, so.

[Nava Kavilan]

Okay, perfect.

[Penn Badgley]

All right, so we'll just start with the oldest, because you were 12 first.

[Allie Machalka]

That's great.

[AJ Machalka]

I was 12 first. And AJ at that point was 10.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, so. So just like, a snapshot of daily life and then. And then also, you know, what was your. Were you already writing together? You know, like, what was your relationship together at that point?

[AJ Machalka]

So at 12 and 10, we were back living in California after living in kind of a suburb of Seattle, Washington, and we moved back to.

[Penn Badgley]

Wait, which suburb?

[AJ Machalka]

Woodinville.

[Penn Badgley]

Woodinville. Outside? Not one I remember, but I lived in Washingtonville.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, funny. Yeah. It's not very far from, like, Bellevue.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

Oh, there for seven years.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

But at the time Allie was 12, we were back in LA.

[AJ Machalka]

Art, like, childhood was. Was really, like, spent there, but we were back in LA and we were living, like, Deep Valley at this point. We were in Newberry park and we were writing. We were writing. Yeah. But we were. I'm trying to think if we were homeschooled yet at that point. Yeah, we were. I think we were homeschooled at that point. Yeah. And we were in the business. But, like, at this point, I had not booked my first job. I did not have my SAG card. AJ did. She was working. She was crushing. She was cute as hell. She had no braces.

[Sophie Ansari]

And you did.

[AJ Machalka]

And I did. And I was still kind of shy, and I was still, like, finding, like, who I was. But music was really our, like, thing together. Music and acting class was just our whole life, and that was what we looked forward to every week, was whether it was our piano and vocal lessons or it was our acting class, which we would drive into, which was in Van Nuys, like, twice a week. Yeah. And so that was. That was just everything that we looked forward to. It was really around entertainment, which is funny, but at this point, was it

[Penn Badgley]

young actor space, by any chance?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, young actor space.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I went there.

[AJ Machalka]

That was it. What?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, Van Nuys. I was just thinking.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, yeah. Who was your.

[Penn Badgley]

Is Diane still there, then?

[Allie Machalka]

Diane Hardenhill?

[AJ Machalka]

She's not still there anymore.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I know, yeah, she's.

[AJ Machalka]

But she's alive, which is amazing.

[Allie Machalka]

She is, yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Are you sure? Cause I could just sworn I was doing research for something, and I looked her up and I. Are you serious?

[AJ Machalka]

I'm pretty sure as of the last year.

[Sophie Ansari]

I know.

[AJ Machalka]

You get, like, a reunion with people.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, amazing. Okay, great then.

[AJ Machalka]

But we can satisfy.

[Nava Kavilan]

But it sounds like you're dead to her because you were not invited to that reunion.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, I called her repeatedly, and, I mean, her voicemail even said, sorry, I've died.

[AJ Machalka]

I don't want Ken telling us this. Yeah, yeah. So she was our teacher, and so was Patrick Day. It was kind of the two of them for, like, many years, actually. And at this point, we were writing music, but we weren't, like. I don't think we were in the point yet where maybe we were just picking up guitar or, like, we were in the next year, I was gonna say.

[Allie Machalka]

How old were you when we started?

[AJ Machalka]

13, I think. Yeah, 13 and 11. At this point, we were playing piano and we were doing some writing with other producers, I think, and kind of making, like, demos. I mean, it was janky, you know,

[Penn Badgley]

but it's not like, in your basement in Wisconsin.

[AJ Machalka]

Correct.

[Penn Badgley]

So. So, like, I'm actually. So can you give us, like, the. You know, the. What got you? How. How early on did you move to la? Like, for the first time, I think.

[Allie Machalka]

So we were born in Los Angeles, but then moving to Seattle. That was seven years of our childhood. And so we moved back to California by the time we were 9 and 11.

[Penn Badgley]

And was that explicitly to start these careers?

[AJ Machalka]

No, no. It was because of our dad's business. And he had been commuting for many years back and forth from California to Seattle.

[Allie Machalka]

Seven years.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, that's crazy.

[AJ Machalka]

It was crazy. And then my mom's parents ended up passing, which was kind of still holding us in Washington because they lived in Washington state. And at this point, we had done some legitimate, like, acting workshops in Seattle, which were not, like, John Robert Powers shock shocking. They were legit, but they were absolutely legit. And we got kind of, like, Seattle

[Penn Badgley]

has a good thing for that. Because it's where I did it too. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

Oh, interesting. Was it, Was it Northwest Studios by chance?

[Penn Badgley]

Actually, you saying that sounds very familiar, but no, I don't know. I don't, I don't think so.

[Allie Machalka]

Because if it was Northwest Studios plus Young Actor Space, too much crazy.

[AJ Machalka]

So, yeah, so we got scouted and then nothing kind of came of it because we were just like, well, we live in Seattle still, you know, so this means nothing. But this was really fun. And then when I think my parents started talking about, like, I think we like sell the house, we move and relocate back to California to be close for. You were kind of like, wait, isn't that the place where we could be actors?

[Allie Machalka]

You know, place where dreams come true.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right. Yes, all of them.

[AJ Machalka]

So I think we kind of started in the, like, modeling space and it was a lot of like catalog work. And then it was like commercials for AJ and then she started booking like some TV stuff. And then really, we didn't move because of the industry. We didn't move because the industry.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right, right, right, right.

[AJ Machalka]

Well, then everything really happened once I, I booked this Disney Channel show which kind of was like the start of everything, which then was like a domino effect of us getting signed as, as artists and putting out the first record. And. And so that's kind of, that's the start.

[Allie Machalka]

I do want to add something to Ali's 12 year old self. We met our very best friend when Ali was 12 and I was 10. So that is like a marker in time that is like forever special and kind of embedded in our lives. And we met them at Young Actor Space. So I was 10, he was 11, Allie was 12. And so just now that I'm thinking of the age 12, I'm like, oh, wow. That's how we met Raymond. Was that. That was the time in life when you met Raymond. And he's our best friend to this day. It's been 24 years.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow, you're so united.

[Sophie Ansari]

You're so like our best friend even.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, but, but you, but you're doing it in a way that isn't even like. I don't know. That's interesting because you just don't, you don't necessarily always have that with siblings.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, yeah. And you know, you're close, but we, I think, complement each other and we have our differences, but we are very a united front.

[Allie Machalka]

We are. That's really sweet. I like that.

[Penn Badgley]

What would you attribute that to? I mean, is it just always how it's been? Is it just Is it like kind of never really was any other way

[Allie Machalka]

or there was any that were any. I mean, I really don't know how that even came to be. I mean, I. I do want to like commend our parents for.

[Penn Badgley]

Must be your parents in some way.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, for nurturing a relationship and fostering a friendship with Ally and I from a really early age. Like, it was very much like your sister's number one, you know, and that was something that they fostered at a really young age. So I do think that that has. I don't know, I think that that's always been with us, that mentality that it's like, this is my partner in crime, this is my number one, this is my best friend, this is my sibling, this is my blood, but this is also who I get to work with. Like, it's a blessing, but I. But it is weird. Like, I don't. We never didn't have that.

[AJ Machalka]

So. Yeah, and we were always like, just. We did everything together. Everything together. And like everything was a game. Everything was, you know, going to dinner with our parents was a game. You know, reading a menu was a game. You know, ordering. Just like ordering. I mean, literally every single thing my parents were saying. These kids just won't stop. But I mean, in a way, I think that made us really close. And a lot of our childhood was very imaginative in its, like, play. And it's like the way that I think we bonded was going out in the backyard and like playing these games and Barbies and, you know, I mean, we, we were just those kids that just like, you could leave us for like five hours and they're like, they've been playing this damn game for like the whole day.

[Penn Badgley]

But that's awesome.

[AJ Machalka]

You're good.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, Very content.

[Sophie Ansari]

That is truly incredible. I. Because I have a sister, but she's three years older than me. And then we have a brother who's two years older than her. So they kind of like banded together. Now, her and I are inseparable in a lot of ways, but it took her leaving the house actually. So hearing about two sisters who have just like from the get go, been so tight, it's really sweet. I have a daughter.

[Penn Badgley]

It's triggering for Sophie, I think, actually.

[Allie Machalka]

Triggering. Triggering and hopeful.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, I have a two year old and I'm pregnant with another girl. And so I'm like, please let this

[AJ Machalka]

be like Ally and A.J.

[Nava Kavilan]

beautiful.

[AJ Machalka]

Congratulations. I think it can be. I mean, I. Yeah, I think obviously

[Allie Machalka]

not start with the parent.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, it starts with the parents.

[Penn Badgley]

You'll have to fight all the generational trauma. Obviously, you're gonna have to fight everything that's in your blood. No, no, no, no, no.

[AJ Machalka]

And I think on top of it also, like, obviously being somewhat close in age, that helps. You know what I mean? I think you can be close with your sibling later in life if there's a larger age gap. But I do think, like, because we had a lot of stuff that was just in common, and we had a lot of friends in common. Like, we shared a lot of friends. You know, there's very few friends that are in our own separate even now, wouldn't you say? Yeah, true. So it's. Yeah, I think it's just something that we just kind of had from day one. And I don't know if that's because our personalities kind of mesh. Like, I was a little shyer. AJ was more outgoing. I always joke that, like, AJ knew my subway order, so she would, like, go into the subway shop and she'd go, she wants. And it was like, I didn't have to say anything. And I was like, she's right. So, like, you know, she's just like, we just know each other in that way. And then I think as I got older, I became a little bit more of the older sibling. Like, when I was younger, I felt like our roles were reversed. Yeah, you think?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, I do.

[AJ Machalka]

AJ was really, like, active.

[Allie Machalka]

I still think we switch every now.

[AJ Machalka]

We do, we do. But, like, when we were younger, you had more, like, older sibling energy, and I was kind of like the little sister that just was like, more shy and kind of would just like, roll with you.

[Allie Machalka]

But we're also both Aries, so maybe that is a part of it being the same.

[Penn Badgley]

You're born in the same month, so

[Sophie Ansari]

you guys are exactly two years apart.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, exactly.

[AJ Machalka]

We're like two years and two weeks.

[Allie Machalka]

So we're actually Allie's end of March, I'm beginning of April, So we're not the same month, but we're both in the Aries world.

[Sophie Ansari]

Interesting. And then. So, AJ, what was your 12 year, 12 year old life like? Would you add anything to that?

[Allie Machalka]

I booked my first TV show at 12, so I was on a drama on CBS called the Guardian that David Hollander with Dabney Coleman and Simon Baker. I was the only kid on the show, so. And it was a really heavy, heavy show I was on for two years, and I wasn't allowed to read any of the scripts. My mom would, like, black out a lot of things that I just didn't need to know. And I learned everything from that set. I mean, Dabney from Farah and Dabney. Farrah Fawcett was on the show. She played my grandmother. I learned a ton from her. Dabney Coleman played my adopted father. He was a mentor for many, many years. And then I reconnected with him later in life as an adult and we would go out to dinner together and just talk about life and the industry. And he just a mentor for years. And he sadly passed away a couple years ago at 92. And he was just an amazing spirit in my Life. So at 12, I can say, like, I met, you know, my first great mentor.

[Penn Badgley]

That's amazing.

[Allie Machalka]

And was on that show for two years and became really close to the creator, who's still a dear friend. And then I feel like that's really the start of the guitar playing for me. You know, I think we might have bought our first guitars at 11 and 13. Well, not ourselves, but our parents, you know, got em for us for Christmas. And then at 12, I think I really started diving into learning basic chords. And then at that point that really inspired the writing. Like Ally and I just started writing

[AJ Machalka]

like the piano playing didn't. The piano playing felt like it was more separated from the songwriting. It was like I play the piano and I sing.

[Penn Badgley]

It didn't like activate you as, right?

[Sophie Ansari]

No.

[AJ Machalka]

And the guitar, for whatever reason was like, I'm writing songs and it's like with like three chords, you know?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

So that really, I think activated. You're right around that age. And then the funny thing about if I think back to this age, 12

[Allie Machalka]

and 10, I got my period at 12.

[AJ Machalka]

AJ got her period at 12. That's true. Before. Before Allie. Actually I was killed.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh really?

[AJ Machalka]

Which was very unsettling. And I was very disturbed by contentious. She's like, you're a woman.

[Allie Machalka]

I'm not. I was so.

[AJ Machalka]

She was like so upset. And yeah, if I think at this time I remember us sharing a bedroom, which is funny because most of our childhood we had our own bedrooms. And then in our teen years we

[Allie Machalka]

had our own bedrooms.

[AJ Machalka]

But there was literally like two years from like 10 to 12 where we shared a bed. And it was like the coolest room that was just like limited to blow up couch. You know, those, those lights that you can like, you know, you can hit the little lamp and it like spans

[Allie Machalka]

like the most Y2K bedroom of all time.

[AJ Machalka]

Of all time. And we shared a queen bed with all of our stuff. Well, really all of AJ stuffed animals. And I sleep with 24. I'm not kidding you. I had to make her like, this is what's really funny about this age specifically is AJ had so many stuffed animals that I would be like, aj, I can't sleep in this bag. There's too many stuffed animals. We need to make a schedule for the stuffed animal. So they're gonna have a schedule throughout the week. So on Monday, you sleep with these five. Then on Tuesday, you sleep with these five. Then on Wednesday, these five. And then on Sunday, the one free for all of. All of them in the bed. Wow, that's hilarious. It's one of the funniest core memories I have that I was like, I'm sorry, I'm Stepp. Like, we're making a schedule.

[Allie Machalka]

I still have the schedule.

[Penn Badgley]

But also, it is a physical.

[AJ Machalka]

It was a physical piece of paper that was like, okay, Winthrop was this day. You know, Winthrop, you know, you know, Tuffy is this day. Pacey is this day.

[Penn Badgley]

Wait, is Winthrop a music man? Is that, like a music man reference to you?

[Allie Machalka]

So Winthrop is my dearest, my dearest possession. He is my teddy bear from when I was six years old, who I still to this day travel with. And he's on every tour, he's in every plane.

[Penn Badgley]

Where did you pull that name from? That name is, like. That name is, like 1920s.

[Allie Machalka]

I bought him. I bought him from a small town called Winthrop. The town is.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, that's really cute.

[Allie Machalka]

I could think of was, like.

[AJ Machalka]

It was like, in the mountains.

[Allie Machalka]

But you're right, it's very old timey to have a. A kid named their bear Winthrop is bizarre.

[AJ Machalka]

But Winthrop was, like. He was like, by far the favorite. Like, all the other animals were like,

[Allie Machalka]

okay, he got the nightly. He got the night.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, got.

[Allie Machalka]

You know, they had to be separated

[AJ Machalka]

from, but we were, like, very.

[Allie Machalka]

So that is a big core memory.

[AJ Machalka]

We were very happy, like, cohabitating together. We, you know, we had, like, our little boombox set up with our, like, dozen CDs and, you know, a couple posters that our parents allowed on the back of our door. You know, our little piggy bank and our, like, safe and our little, like, you know, diary that had a lock on it. Like, it was all that sad.

[Penn Badgley]

You had a joint diary?

[Allie Machalka]

No, we didn't.

[Penn Badgley]

I was like, all right, this is getting good.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's like that new show Pluribus. Like, you're speaking and you're like,

[Allie Machalka]

wait, I actually think this is a problem.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, you say it. Selfie. Sure.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's so funny and we'll be right back. I used to dread switching banks. So many hidden fees and confusing rules. Then I found Chime and it actually makes managing money simple, stress free and fee free. Chime is smarter fee free banking built for everyday life. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees and no minimum balance. With MyPay you can also access up to $500 of your paycheck early and get paid up to two days sooner than you normally would. The Chime card helps you build credit with your own money while earning cash back on everyday purchases. Savings accounts earn up to 3% APY. That's seven times higher than a traditional bank. With 24. 7 support and a five star USA Today rating, millions are banking smarter with Chime. My younger self could have greatly benefited from something like Chime. Not only the overdraft coverage so that you're avoiding those overdraft fees. That's an issue that I'm still working on to be honest, but also the ability to build credit while earning cash back. I mean who doesn't love that? As a young adult managing their finances for the first time, living it up in New York City, I really could have used something like Chime. Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. Chime is not just smarter banking, it is the most rewarding way to bank join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com podcrust that is chime.com

[Allie Machalka]

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[AJ Machalka]

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[Allie Machalka]

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[AJ Machalka]

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[Allie Machalka]

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[AJ Machalka]

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[Nava Kavilan]

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[AJ Machalka]

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[Nava Kavilan]

Well, Ali, why don't we go back to you getting cast on fill of the future. Walk us through like the audition process and I would love to hear a vivid memory of shooting the pilot.

[AJ Machalka]

Okay, so, well, I feel like Penn, you know Raviv.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, actually, so Raviv was a very close friend for like a couple of core years. In my mid twenties.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Love Rav. All the sweetest people.

[AJ Machalka]

Unbelievable. And Raviv and I are still really close and Amy are still close. Which, you know, when you think about like those years, it's either like really positive or like really traumatic. And thankfully for me, for whatever reason, it was actually really positive. I remember being in some like acting workshop with Joey, Joey Paul. Joey Paul Jackson oh, my God. Joey, Paul, Jackson.

[Penn Badgley]

These are names.

[AJ Machalka]

Wow. Yeah, I know, I know.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. Crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

And she's like, wow, that's. That's more of a blast from the past than I've heard. Maybe in. I don't know, in the last 10 years.

[AJ Machalka]

What about Donna Jean? Golda Jean? That sound familiar?

[Allie Machalka]

Donna Jean?

[Penn Badgley]

No, that's not. I don't. I don't know.

[AJ Machalka]

That was the other ending I had in the podcast. So. Yeah, so we were at this workshop, and she was like, I really think that you're right for this role in this new Disney Channel pilot. And, like, I had auditioned for stuff, but, like, I just. I didn't get a lot of callbacks on things. I, at this point, nervous. I think I got nervous a lot. And. And. And I think I also just was like, I was still, like, an awkward tween, you know, I was. At this point, I had just gotten my braces off, I think, which was a big moment to feel like I was, like, really shining. Like, I was like, okay, I'm cool, you know, And I think that probably is part of it. Like, I had gotten my br. Races up, I think, like, maybe not even six months before. So when I auditioned, it was just like any other audition. And then, you know, I kept getting, like, a callback, and then it was another callback, and I was like, okay, now you're gonna test. You know, I was like. It was. Everybody knew was like a big deal. Raviv had already been cast at that point, so it was like a mix and match with Raviv. And I came in and I remember thinking, like, Ravi is really cute, you know, like, he was also three years older than me, so it felt like he was so cute, you know, age gap.

[Penn Badgley]

He's very handsome.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. He's okay with it, and he still is.

[Allie Machalka]

Now he's wearing, like a.

[AJ Machalka]

Like a. Like a shell choker. You know, it was like those guys.

[Allie Machalka]

Oh, classic Abu Dhabi and Fitch day.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. And I just remember being like, wow, this. This guy's really nice and he's really cute, and, like, I'm nervous and, like, I hope I'm funny and whatever. So I. I ended up. I ended up doing the test. One of the. I've said this before, but, like, long story short, when I. When I did the test, I wore the same outfit that I worn for all the other auditions. And I remember it really specifically for whatever reason. It was like this, like. I think it was like a tiger, like, tank top and, like, a flower in my hair. My hair was like, wavy. And they asked me right before the test, like, you know, some of the producers, and it might have even been Gary Marsh, too, are asking if your hair could be straight for this. And I'm going. I'm already here. I'm clear. My hair is wavy. Like, it's legitimately, like, wavy, you know, and there's product in it, and there's, like, a lady that's, like, at a desk, and he's like, I have a hairbrush and some pomade, and I can, like, straighten it out for you. So I'm sure. So greasy and straight. And she went to the, like, Disney

[Allie Machalka]

Channel, you know, bathroom.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. I'm, like, nervous, and my mom, you know, is probably also, like. It's gonna be.

[Allie Machalka]

It's fine.

[AJ Machalka]

You look great, honey. Like, don't worry. She's, like, trying to stray my hair in there, you know. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

So bad.

[AJ Machalka]

And. And then I got the call, and it was like, you know, I'd never stepped foot on a set. That's the funniest part about this all, is that, like, I got my SAG card from this pilot, and I, like,

[Allie Machalka]

walked Allie through, like, the main, like, you know, the mark and, like, what color you'll. You'll be color. So don't stand on the mark of another color.

[AJ Machalka]

Like, let me walk you through how to read a call. Call sheet, you know?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah. I felt, like, so cool.

[AJ Machalka]

Silly things.

[Allie Machalka]

Meanwhile, I'd already only been working for, like, you know, a year, but I was like, this is how it works. Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

And I just remember at that point, the show was called the out of Timers. It was not called Phil of the Future. And I remember we had a dance as part of the pilot, and it was like, a pink song was playing. And I just remember thinking, like, this is really cool. But also, in the pilot, a bunch of chickens are running around on the floor, and I was just like, this is weird. Yes, there was a bunch of live chickens, because I guess, what's the concept again?

[Penn Badgley]

Is it, like, why is he Phil of the future? Is he from the future?

[AJ Machalka]

So he's from the future, and they're on a big family vacation going in the past, and they get stuck in the past, and they can't get back to the future.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, the whole family.

[AJ Machalka]

The whole family. And I am a kid that he meets in the present day and ends up saying, hey, I'm from the future. I'm the only one that knows their secret. And then there's a little, you know, okay, like, love relationship between the two of Us, but we only ran two seasons. It was actually a really short show in the things.

[Allie Machalka]

It was such a.

[Penn Badgley]

That was an era where I think a show could become really iconic to people who watch the Disney Channel, which was, like, everybody of a certain age. I happened to somehow not be in that window. I didn't watch it. I auditioned for everything in the Disney Channel. Everything, like.

[Allie Machalka]

But were you more of a Nickelodeon guy? What did you watch?

[Penn Badgley]

No, neither. I didn't get either. I didn't get either one. I guess I ended up becoming more of a WB guy, which, you know, my skin crawls.

[Sophie Ansari]

But what did you watch as a kid? Pen.

[Nava Kavilan]

He read the dictionary.

[Sophie Ansari]

He's like, watch.

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't know what it means to watch. I'm only getting the thesaurus.

[AJ Machalka]

I only failed.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, to be honest.

[Sophie Ansari]

You watch those.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't remember. I think I watched a lot of movies.

[AJ Machalka]

Like, not as much TV shows, but, like, I feel like the ladies. You guys probably watched, like, well, so

[Nava Kavilan]

I grew up in Puerto Rico, and we didn't get the Disney Channel, so the Disney Channel shows are, like, an area that I have a total blind spot. But I watched wb. I really. I'm. I'm the oldest on this call. I watched 90210, the original. I was obsessed with that. That was like a teen show.

[Allie Machalka]

Yep.

[Sophie Ansari]

I watched all of them. Phil of the Future. That's so Raven. I could keep going, but.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, Sophie, you could. You had those shows in the Philippines and in China.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, in the Philippines. So, yeah, I. I grew up in a bunch of different countries. And then when I was in third grade, it's like, eight years old, we moved to the Philippines where they had Disney Channel. And that was a big.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's so crazy that they had it in the Philippines and not in Puerto Rico.

[AJ Machalka]

Well, I've heard this is, like, a U.S. territory that had said, like, I watched the Disney Channel and it helped me even, like, learn English, you know, because it was like, that's very sweet. But, yeah. So, like, anyways, I think he turned, like, students into chickens accidentally or something.

[Allie Machalka]

He has, like, a book of gadgets.

[AJ Machalka]

He.

[Allie Machalka]

All this weird stuff.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

We're gonna have to spend about 30 minutes on.

[Allie Machalka]

Okay.

[Nava Kavilan]

This has become a Phil of the Future recap show now.

[AJ Machalka]

It's now going to Pod Press to fill the future.

[Penn Badgley]

We gotta get Raviv on here stat.

[AJ Machalka]

Don't love this, man. We should. Thank you, Raviv. And by the way, I mean, I don't know how much you guys keep in touch, but Raviv is also a dad, and we became parents. What?

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, I'm sure he's an amazing. Just for, like, for everybody. Raviv is an amazing person. He's just, like. He has this incredible glowing quality.

[AJ Machalka]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, he's just, like, such a lovely human. We would. Back in the day, like, again in my mid-20s, we would go to his place for Shabbat every Friday or wherever we were. Would do, like, maybe a circling friend's house. He would kind of, like, host it a little bit.

[AJ Machalka]

He was very special. I went to a couple of them. And it's funny now, like, looking back, because, you know, when we did the show, I was 13, he was 16. And that's like, a big age gap for that age. We're kind of like, whoa, he's a lot older. But, like, you know, Evan Peters was on the show. Brenda Song was on the show. Everybody was older than I was, except for Amy, who was, I think, two years younger. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

She.

[AJ Machalka]

Your age? Yeah. And friends of all of them. And. And I'm. I'm buddies with, like, most of the. You know, most of the cast. We haven't seen Evan in years, but, like, yeah, one of the producers is like, like an uncle to me. Matt Dearborn.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's nice.

[AJ Machalka]

So, yeah, it's wild that, like, that part of your life feels like it was so long ago. But I have very vivid memories, you know. I have very vivid memories of, like, my room, you know, the schoolroom where I decorated my desk and.

[Penn Badgley]

The schoolroom on set.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. Schoolroom on set. Yeah. My teacher. I was really obsessed with the wardrobe for the show, so I would go in and, like, plan all my outfits with the stylist. She was like, okay, yeah, you can plan next week's, like, six looks or whatever. Wow. And you're so into that. I was just very. I was. Yeah. I was like. I really loved it. I had, like, my little routine. You know, we filmed at Occidental Studios, so it was quite a drive from, like, Deep Valley, but my mom would drag me every day, and then she would just hang out. A.J. you would sometimes be on set, but, you know, I feel like there were times where, you know, you were working, too, so the parents would have to split. Our parents would split or they'd drop us off, but we had, like, you know, a legal guardian there, being the. The teacher. But, yeah, it was just a really fun.

[Allie Machalka]

And then one of the producers from Phil of the Future, who we remained really close with, Matt Dearborn, who Ali mentioned, he ended up writing the Story for Cowbell. So that concept, original concept, came from him. So then that started that.

[AJ Machalka]

Which was like, the first movie.

[Allie Machalka]

That was the first movie he did together.

[AJ Machalka]

Disney Channel.

[Nava Kavilan]

So around this time, you're also. You sign a record deal, right? You were like, 15 and 13. Can you kind of walk us?

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, 15.

[Allie Machalka]

No, 13 and 15.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. I think when we put it out, we were like, 16 or 14.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, yeah, I think 13 and 15. It all started because, Allie, there was a talent show episode on Phil of the Future where.

[AJ Machalka]

What was it? It was like.

[Allie Machalka]

No.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, it was.

[Allie Machalka]

You're at where Raviv is shrunk.

[AJ Machalka]

It shrunk down.

[Allie Machalka]

Freaking weird again.

[Penn Badgley]

Please tell us more. Phil of the Future.

[AJ Machalka]

No, you're dying laughing. Raviv is literally like Tom Thumb, and I'm nervous to sing at this talent show. So he's like, keely, I'll shrink myself down and I'll be on the microphone and I'll help you sing.

[Penn Badgley]

So they have every power in the future. Like, humans can just do whatever they want, and they bl. Brought it with them to the present.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, they were like a weird sci Fi family that could do anything. It was like they could make food out of a wand, you know, it

[AJ Machalka]

was like they could make meatloaf with, like, a spray can, you know?

[Penn Badgley]

Wow. It just keeps getting more interesting and less consistent.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like, we're not far off from that.

[AJ Machalka]

No, no, Just one episode. I sing a song, and I don't even know how I, like, had the balls to be like, hey, writers and creators of the show. I write music with my sister, and I think I have a perfect song for this episode. They were like, wow, okay, that's true. Can we hear it? I was like, I have, like, a really bad demo of it. And they were like, well, yeah, send it. I sent it. They were like, this is literally perfect. We want you to record it, go in the studio, and we'll use it on the show.

[Allie Machalka]

Well, just to give context, the lyrics. So the song's called Protecting Me. It's the first song we ever wrote at, I think, 12 and 14. Funny enough. And the song, it's. The song is about how we feel. Our parents are our protectors. Like. Like, it wasn't protecting me like a relationship.

[Penn Badgley]

So it wasn't about a shrunken fill. What are the chances it would be about your best friend?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, right. They were like, wait, this isn't about a friend. But, like, this. The context of these lyrics go perfectly with your friend protecting you from the fear and nerves of being In a talent show. So he'll help you sing this song from the little mic. And it was, like, bizarre.

[AJ Machalka]

It was.

[Penn Badgley]

I love this. I love this so much.

[Allie Machalka]

His little voice is drunken, so he's

[Nava Kavilan]

going,

[AJ Machalka]

like, made it tiny, and he's singing the song.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my goodness.

[AJ Machalka]

I gotta watch this after this. I. I have to find a way to get a clip to you being that, you know, reviewed anyway.

[Allie Machalka]

If you read the lyrics, you'll be like, oh, I get it. Like, it actually does work for this setting of this show.

[AJ Machalka]

And then that was from that moment on, which is. And then we got signed. We got signed. But I think they were just like, that's amazing. I think they were like, okay, there's more to it. We didn't know that Ali was musical at that point. Hillary had, like, come out with music, but they were like, like, what can we do to, like, cross over? It was the very start of Disney really doing this. I think the only person they had done with was Hillary. Like, literally, wow. The next person that was, like, a direct link from a show link from a show was really me and being with AJ But I think they thought it was just gonna be solo. And I was like, no, no, no. I'm in a duo with my sister. You know, we've been doing this for a few years, and we write on music, and they asked if we would come in. They asked if we would come in and basically, like, audition for the label. And we just came in with acoustic guitars and played, like, five songs on the floor.

[Nava Kavilan]

Were you nervous? How did you feel in that audition?

[AJ Machalka]

I think we were nervous.

[Allie Machalka]

I break a string. We were so nervous.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, my gosh.

[Allie Machalka]

We had never played. We had never played before standing up, and we didn't really want to play on chairs, so we asked if we could play on the floor. So we played crisscross applesauce with our two acoustic guitars for, like, 10 executives at Hollywood Records, because that was the label that Disney owned. And all those songs ended up on the album, which is wild. I mean, these songs were written by children.

[AJ Machalka]

And then. And then we had another label meeting with Warner Brothers the next day. The next day, and we kind of did the same thing. And then we ended up choosing, you know, Disney just because it made sense. And, like, I was already on a show at that point, and I think they were, like, the most excited to, like, be, you know, incorporating us on the channel.

[Allie Machalka]

So I think Warner Brothers got word and wanted to meet, because at the time, the guy running it was the son of the Guy running Hollywood Records. So it was a bit of a competitive.

[AJ Machalka]

Rob Cavallo and Bob Cavallo.

[Allie Machalka]

It was like the father and the son who both brought different labels, wanted to both take the meeting. It was interesting.

[Penn Badgley]

That is almost as interesting as the premise of Phil of the Future.

[Allie Machalka]

Actually. That's a great premise for a show a dad.

[Penn Badgley]

It is a great premise running labels. In the early 2000s, when, like, that was. You know, labels were.

[AJ Machalka]

It was. Everything was like, that was. If you want to be an artist, it had to be signed. You know, it all started. That's all really. That's when it all started.

[Allie Machalka]

And so, yeah, it made sense to go to Hollywood Records. After the Disney Channel connect, you were

[Sophie Ansari]

maybe the second one to have that link from, like, a show to a record deal. I feel like it's.

[AJ Machalka]

So.

[Sophie Ansari]

It became so ubiquitous.

[Penn Badgley]

It became a pipeline.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Once they realized it was a thing

[AJ Machalka]

that could be done, it became a pipeline. It's a little strange. It was like a moneymaker, obviously, through the channel. And I think there were some kids that were like, yo, I don't sing. Like, I don't want to do this. You know, And I. And I kind of respect that. Like this Frau Stellen and Cole, I think. I think they were approached and they're like, no.

[Allie Machalka]

Hell, no.

[AJ Machalka]

But. But, yeah, after that, it was just like this waterfall effect of, like, every young girl that was on.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

Channel. They were like, we're gonna turn you into a little superstar.

[Allie Machalka]

Which I think is a bit. Not. I don't know. It wasn't everyone's thing. You know what I mean? So it was a tricky. It's like they were getting offered, you know, record deals, but it was also like they had never really sung before. I mean, I don't mean that about everyone. I just mean there was a.

[Penn Badgley]

Of course. Of course. I mean, it seems to me like it was a. It became a. Once it was understood, like, this works.

[AJ Machalka]

It was a portal.

[Penn Badgley]

It seems like they were kind of trying it out on anybody who work know. For instance, there's like, Demi Lovato, who. Incredible, powerhouse voice and so talented. We had her on the show. You know, that's like. That's a great case. I mean, she has some tragedy to the way it happened. Right. But that's a case of it quote unquote, working. But then I know that, yeah, they were just trying to sort of push this sort of thing on probably a lot of people. And you guys seem to. Then, I mean, maybe this isn't the right way to frame it. I'm interested how you would frame it and how you felt about it. But I mean, you guys always. I even remember when I met you years ago on a little film called Easy A. I mean, I met both of you then.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And I met your mom kind of like briefly. And it seemed to me that even though acting has very much always been a part of it, that you're just, I don't know, you, like, you. You carry yourselves as musicians. You think of yourselves as musicians. Am I wrong about that?

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Allie Machalka]

No, I think you're right. I think. Yeah. That's interesting that that's kind of how you saw it from even meeting us years ago. I do think it always felt like our musicianship was the start of it all. And our guitars and our songwriting and our singing is really what. Even though Ally yes booked the show, which kind of led to the record deal, I do feel like the music kind of in some ways, started first.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And it seems like it really took over at some point.

[Allie Machalka]

It did.

[Penn Badgley]

Even though, of course, you would always continue. It just seems to be the thing. And it's also where you're doing it together, which somehow reflects, you know, just maybe more transparently, more authentically, you as people and you as artists, because you have this powerful connection.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. We've been joking about the two of you kind of being so in tune with each other and like, almost like you're one. But it is really sweet. I heard Ali, you talk about turning down the role of Hannah Montana, partially because you knew it might, like, solidify you as a solo artist or just like, doing your own thing, but you really wanted to be in a duo with your sister, which I thought was so sweet. And the other day I was actually talking with my husband about sibling musical groups. We were talking about, like, how oftentimes pop groups will get made by just like, you know, Spice Girls. They were kind of like auditioned separately and they like.

[Penn Badgley]

Were they all related as well?

[Sophie Ansari]

But then we were like, okay, what are some groups that just. That weren't put together by a label,

[AJ Machalka]

but that

[Sophie Ansari]

came together on their own? And all we could come up with were these sibling groups. And there's so many.

[Allie Machalka]

You're so.

[AJ Machalka]

Right now.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, there's a ton. I then googled it and I was like, oh, wow. Even groups I didn't know were siblings are siblings.

[AJ Machalka]

Totally.

[Allie Machalka]

They're all brothers or sisters.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I'm curious from your guys perspective what you think it is about your sisterhood that allows for for that, like, synergy in your collaboration, specifically with music, maybe.

[AJ Machalka]

I feel like being in a duo or band in general, there's a lot of egos, obviously, that you have to kind of, like, mitigate and ride the wave of, you know, So I feel like being in a partnership with a sibling just kind of, like, softens that a bit. It's kind of like, you know. You know, all my skeletons, like, you're gonna drive me nuts, whether we're working as, you know, partners in business or not, so I can be real with you. And. I don't know, I just. It feels like. I feel like that's maybe part of the longevity of it. Like that. Yeah, that is a family member.

[Allie Machalka]

I also think when you're siblings, there's a little bit less ego involved, so it's easier to define people's strengths and weaknesses. Whereas when you're in a band and you're not related, you almost. I've noticed some people don't want to admit who's. Who has the specific strength and who has the specific weakness, because if they do that, they've kind of now given that strength to someone else, and now they can't shine in that way. So I would assume they don't want to be as clear with, like, what are you really good at? And what am I really good at? Whereas Ally and I, there's no ego in the game, so we're willing to just kind of own whatever that is and move on. Whereas I can imagine, like, a bunch of male, you know, singers or. Or female singers who aren't related would be like, I don't really want to. I don't really want to define this out. Make me lesser. It might make me not the lead singer. Like, you know, and like, we always.

[AJ Machalka]

I think from, like, when we were young, we tried to make it really, like, I think we were more being like, we want to protect the sisterhood. You know, maybe that was our parents helping with that. Yeah. But it was very, like, equal. It was like, you know, we tried in the studio to be like, you know, you sing a verse, you sing a verse. You know, the split, the writing is always split, like, that kind of stuff. You know, obviously, as you've gotten older now, we're kind of like, look, if you sound great on this song, and I should be singing, you know, harmony and just the bridge, like, that's fine. But like, when we were younger, I think we were hyper aware of that because we knew that maybe we could be sensitive to stuff like that. Yeah. Or my mom knew that we could be sensitive to stuff like that. So I think she tried to be kind of like a mediator and, like, you guys are both equal in this. You know, you're both. It's not like one sister is shining and the other one is, like, in the shadows, you know? Right. So I think that was, like, important.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stick around. We'll be right back.

[AJ Machalka]

Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin. You might know us as two of

[Hasan Minhaj]

the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[AJ Machalka]

And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together. We take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take. Right now. Democracy is a participatory sport.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan Is about how we

[AJ Machalka]

get into the game. What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get

[Hasan Minhaj]

your podcasts, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize, and win.

[AJ Machalka]

That's the plan.

[Nava Kavilan]

Ali, I'm curious. You know, I think things work out the way they're supposed to. But in the immediate aftermath of Hannah Montana being, like, such a massive hit, how you felt about your decision.

[AJ Machalka]

I honestly did not think twice about it. That's, like, the funniest part. I mean, Pen, I'm sure you've had your own, like, instances where, you know, something came your way and you were like, this isn't fair.

[Penn Badgley]

I was pretty bummed I didn't get Hannah Montana, to be honest.

[Nava Kavilan]

That was devastating.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, there was one you were really bummed about, wasn't there? Aragon.

[Penn Badgley]

Eragon. Well, the story. No, I wasn't bummed about it, but that was my worst audition ever.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

My worst audition ever. And we had Ed Speliers on because he was also on my show. You years later. He played Eragon. Yeah, no, that. I think that's just what you have. Truly my worst. I don't even remember. I actually don't think I remember the story now, but it was. For whatever reason, it was just a terrible, terrible audition.

[Allie Machalka]

It's really unfair. I've had a really bad. The worst audition I ever had was for Spy Kids 2. And I just.

[AJ Machalka]

I remember this.

[Allie Machalka]

I was so nervous. I don't know why. I just. It was for the Emily Osment character. You know how the other siblings came in as, like, a duo to you?

[AJ Machalka]

I usually didn't really mess up auditions.

[Allie Machalka]

You were pretty pro. I just was stuck in my own loop of just hell. I just couldn't. I couldn't get the lines out. I couldn't. I just. I just was in a black hole. It was really sad.

[Penn Badgley]

We've had a lot of people who've been professionals, like, all throughout their childhood on. For some reason, you describing that just now actually gave me a shudder. Like, just remembering what it's like to audition as a child.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, my God.

[Allie Machalka]

As a child. It's really wrong. It is wrong. It's such a beautiful.

[AJ Machalka]

You're kind of sweating, and you're kind of. Your heart.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, the way I contextualize it is like, you don't realize how kind of, like, abnormal it is. And so you actually don't even. You're not even appropriately nervous. I think, in a way, the way other people think. Thinking about it later as an adult, I'm like, oh, my God. All that stuff is so crazy. There's so much stuff that I think we all do that we're not that nervous about 100% still. Just the environment you're in, you're like. You're contorting in so many ways, and

[Allie Machalka]

the stakes feel so high when you're that age. And now when I audition, I'm like, all right, if it's not mine, it's not mine. If it's supposed to be mine, it'll be mine. Like, I just have such a different way of looking at the auditioning process now. And when you're younger, you don't even have the capacity to realize that, like, this is not the end all be all. Like, this literally is not going. Like, I would think every audition was gonna make or break my career in some weird way.

[AJ Machalka]

We also don't have the, like, calming mechanisms of how to kind of, like, vibe just. You know what I mean, in the way you're a child, so it's like, what do you know about stress management? You know what I mean?

[Penn Badgley]

And you already think, like, your hair will make or break your life. And actually, in the case of an audition, it might make or break you getting the role.

[AJ Machalka]

Totally.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So just all the things about being about being 12 or 15 or whatever it is is, like, it really is true. In an audition, you're being judged so superficially and by adults and by adults who seem powerful.

[AJ Machalka]

Yes. That's the thing.

[Allie Machalka]

You're being judged by adults. Like Ally not booking because she had braces was an adult's decision.

[AJ Machalka]

Like, that was someone saying when I was needing to play a child, right? I was like, hi, I am the kid that has braces. Just like all these kids out here that represent kids.

[Allie Machalka]

Like, it is such a weird. It's just weird how many times I have this like, oh, it just gives me like goosebumps. I have this visceral moment of being 10, 11, 12 and being in like our mom's car and our manager calling being like, we're so sorry, it's not going further.

[AJ Machalka]

Like, and A.J.

[Allie Machalka]

by the way, hearing it's not going further.

[AJ Machalka]

This so many times, like a lot of big jobs where you're kind of

[Allie Machalka]

like, big where it was like me and another girl or me and two

[AJ Machalka]

other girls, or like you read with Cate Blanchett, you know, you, you read with Cate Blanchett, big, like heavy hitter type vibes where you're like, yeah, if you booked that very well could have changed the trajectory of where, where you are in your life. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm getting like secondhand PTSD just hearing it because I remember hearing the phone calls being like, how many. She can't hear this news again, you know?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, yeah. That's so hard. As you guys are having your pop star, your burgeoning pop star careers, you're, you know, booking shows, you do a movie together. What's happening in your love lives, like, what's happening with like first big crushes, first big infatuations? How are you navigating that?

[Allie Machalka]

I mean, all of our first big crushes were like, you know, people that weren't tangible, like people that we worked, you know, it was like, Aaron Carter, you know, is my first big crush. Like, it was, it was never going to be something that we like. I don't even think you and I were very late to the date.

[AJ Machalka]

We were very late to like dating. Like, yeah, crush. I mean, we had crushes, but it was like very like we were not like boy crazy kids, which I think my parents got very lucky with.

[Allie Machalka]

I mean, I'm trying to think first,

[AJ Machalka]

but like, first, like I met a

[Allie Machalka]

guy at Disneyland when I was 13.

[AJ Machalka]

Thirteen maybe. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And we met at Disneyland, like out in the wild. You met out in the wild? That's so funny. That's like a 13 year old version of being picked up at a bar.

[Allie Machalka]

Disneyland is amazing.

[AJ Machalka]

I think it was like you were

[Allie Machalka]

there for an event.

[AJ Machalka]

Event was, was happening. It was a red carpet and it was.

[Allie Machalka]

He was he was an actor.

[AJ Machalka]

I think we were there with our best friend Raymond.

[Sophie Ansari]

This is a different picture now.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So it was an actual bar. It was. There was an open bar.

[Allie Machalka]

There was an open bar for sure. As there was at all these events. Didn't matter what age they were. And we met. We literally met going on rides and we like, we started holding hands and it was like, let's go on Space Mountain. And now let's go on Snow White. I'll go on Peter Pan. And Ally and Raymond were behind me

[Penn Badgley]

going, aw, you're having your like before sunset or. What are those Before.

[AJ Machalka]

I had never had a relationship at this point, so I also was like living vicariously through her being like.

[Penn Badgley]

And did you know, like, this isn't gonna last past Disneyland? Like we're just gonna enjoy.

[Allie Machalka]

No, I totally thought we were gonna be together for a couple years at least. Like, so he was an actor who like, I'm not kidding, like an international press tour. I had no idea who he was. And then found out later, like he was literally doing press for like a huge blockbuster. Never really worked again after that. But had like a moment in time where it was like, holy crap. And then fell for him.

[Penn Badgley]

She was like, I'm here for but one night.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. And then I am on my way to Tokyo.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm going to Paris tomorrow, my love.

[Allie Machalka]

That was very Princess Bride. That was very princess.

[AJ Machalka]

And you wrote a song about this. Encounters.

[Penn Badgley]

Really?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, he wrote two songs about it. So him and I became pen pals while he was on this international press tour. Oh my goodness. His parents then split us up. I'm not kidding you. I got a call on my landline, my mom's landline. My mom was like, hey, you know you have a call. And it was his dad being like, he's too busy. He can't have this. Like, this is actually the plot of a movie.

[Nava Kavilan]

The international. No, this is the plot of a movie that's cringe. That's a Disney movie. That's crazy.

[AJ Machalka]

And he's distracted.

[Allie Machalka]

His life's about to change. You know, this is going to lead to many things for him. And he can't, you know, he can't be dating. Right. I mean, it was just like insane.

[AJ Machalka]

That's also like they're 14 and like 16. It's like as a grown man and

[Penn Badgley]

a father, I don't understand. I wouldn't know how to say to a 14 year old girl, I cannot fathom saying any of this to a 14 year old girl.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, the craziest part about this is that you had a conversation.

[Allie Machalka]

It's not going forward. Am I right?

[AJ Machalka]

You're right. It wasn't fun. It was like he called our mom's phone.

[Allie Machalka]

It's not going forward. Yeah, that was the next moving forward.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Allie Machalka]

And so she was heartbroken.

[AJ Machalka]

And we're in the middle at this point of writing. Right. First album. So that song went.

[Penn Badgley]

So it just went right on. Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

And. And, and the song of their. Their breakup went.

[Allie Machalka]

There's two songs, something more, which is about us meeting at Disneyland and then the song out of the Blue, which is about the breakup and how it ended. And so those two made the record. So that was my first. That was 13. That was.

[AJ Machalka]

And then you had a couple, you know, boyfriends, I would say, or like, you know, whatever you call a relationship with that young event.

[Allie Machalka]

I think Joe would have been the

[AJ Machalka]

first, you know, like, like really, like actual series Joe Jonas, year and a half.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, that was like the first Joe Jonas.

[Nava Kavilan]

You say just casually.

[Allie Machalka]

That was the first like, oh, no thing.

[Penn Badgley]

If you wanted to share.

[AJ Machalka]

And I feel like I've talked.

[Allie Machalka]

I feel like I've talked about this so many times now because people have asked that. I feel like you guys could use all these. Can want answers from separate interviews and just.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, we'll put something together.

[Penn Badgley]

We'll just use AI to handle the rest. I want to hear what you're about. Phil, in the future. Can we please go back?

[Allie Machalka]

I go back to Phil.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wait, no, I have to ask you. I have to ask you a salty. Is it a petty question? Did he break up with you over text?

[Penn Badgley]

That's petty. Neva.

[Nava Kavilan]

Or did you break up with him? No, no, it's because he famously broke up with Taylor Swift over text and she out.

[Allie Machalka]

No, we didn't break up.

[AJ Machalka]

The text was like over phone call. Call.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, it was over a phone call.

[Penn Badgley]

He and Taylor Swift dated.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

And she outed him on Ellen for breaking up with her.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, no.

[Nava Kavilan]

He broke up with her on like a 12 second phone call or something.

[AJ Machalka]

Really?

[Nava Kavilan]

But she called him out for it.

[Allie Machalka]

No, no, that's not how this went down. I. I feel like it was a very sweet amicable. I know that sounds crazy at that age, but it was sweet and I think it was mutual.

[AJ Machalka]

Like you guys have been together for like a year, which is pretty long for.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's a long time.

[Penn Badgley]

That's a. That's a. That's a respectable, you know.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, well, we had also toured together, so it's like we had, you Know, we got to know each other on roll. So that's how started.

[AJ Machalka]

And at this point, I was still solo, I was still single. I had one encounter with a boy, so I would just.

[Allie Machalka]

This alley was very late to me.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

The first time that you came on my radar was in the show Hellcats. Great show. And you're like, a very feisty, confident cheerleader. So my impression of you has always been, like, super feisty, super confident. So this is all, like, surprising to hear. Like, I had a very different picture.

[AJ Machalka]

Well, that's fine.

[Penn Badgley]

It's such a true and easy A as well. You're like, super, super out there.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

Really, really sexual. Feisty.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. I was not, like, at all as a. As a teen. I. I ended up having probably, like, my first, like, relationship around, like, 16. And that was a very, like, big deal.

[Nava Kavilan]

I, like, that's a healthy age.

[AJ Machalka]

I think that's actually, like, the right age. You know, it's not that late, but in the grand scheme of things, when kids are, like, you know, sexually active at, like, 13, and I'm like, wow. So, I mean, I, like, I remember being like, I need to, like, drive on freeways so that I can meet up and hang out and go on dates with this guy. So, like, I really gotta, like, not be scared about that, you know, like,

[Penn Badgley]

about driving on freeways.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow. That's how you got the.

[Penn Badgley]

No, no, I'm serious. I'm just trying to. Like, that is interesting because, like, I also turned 16 living in LA. And it is, like, when you're just thinking about. Funny how to get somewhere and the stakes of, like, I'm meeting a boy,

[AJ Machalka]

like, I can imagine that's going to Santa Monica. Like, I live.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm gonna have to change five lanes on. On the 405.

[AJ Machalka]

Like, deal.

[Allie Machalka]

She did all that guy.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

And then you're, like, feeling like, you know, really cool that you, like, drove out.

[Allie Machalka]

You know, it's impelling to drive from Calabasas to Santa.

[AJ Machalka]

It is empowering at any end. Listening to KROQ, you know, the same time.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

She's just, like, cranking rock music and she's just, like, heading to Santa Monica.

[Penn Badgley]

She's like, absolutely. Just to go on a date. I'm an adult.

[AJ Machalka]

Right. We were really good kids, like, growing up. Like, our parents didn't really have any problems with us. We were not kids that were, like, sneaking out of the house. They got really lucky. They got very lucky. And I tried to remind them. I'm like, you know, that's not normal. Like, I know you wasted a little bit of that, but they're also good parents. But also, like, we just born that way, too. We weren't, like, wanting give them a heart attack, you know, every five minutes.

[Sophie Ansari]

Do you feel like they were strict? Like, did they. You would have obeyed them, it sounds like, anyway. But did they have strict guidelines and rules for you?

[AJ Machalka]

We didn't really have, like, a curfew, I don't think. Yeah, that really exists. I think we did either. I mean, it was weird. They were strict. They were strict in. In the right ways, but, like, we were also kids that, like. I mean, this sounds ridiculous, but, Ben, you're gonna know. This era, we were kids that were going to, like, Ledoux. Not drinking, having, like, Red Bulls, way underage. And the. The guys that ran the club knew. Knew us and were like, they're fine. Like, we trust these kids. Let them dance with their friends.

[Penn Badgley]

They were like the 78 other underage actor kids in here. They're a fucking mess.

[Allie Machalka]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

But keep them here.

[Nava Kavilan]

Ally and A.J.

[AJ Machalka]

but, like, there was that, too. Like, my parents.

[Penn Badgley]

You know what's funny? I don't think I ever went to Ledoux. I was somehow like, well, I'm a bit older than you guys. I think I might have been out of the picture. I think I might have been in New York. I remember the name Ledoux. I did club one seven, like, from 15 to 16. But the most.

[AJ Machalka]

You only won a couple times.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah. That's a bomb. That's a bomb place. Wait, did you do Teddy's?

[Penn Badgley]

Teddy's. Okay, so you know what? I'm just realizing? I didn't go out then, either.

[AJ Machalka]

Wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

No.

[Penn Badgley]

All my friends. Now I'm remembering. All my friends would talk about Les Deux and Teddy's. Why didn't they go out? Why didn't I do it? I don't know.

[AJ Machalka]

You know who we would go out. I'm gonna drop a great name. You know who we would go out with?

[Penn Badgley]

Who?

[Nava Kavilan]

Who?

[AJ Machalka]

Dan Bird.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, you know, I was actually gonna. I was gonna say Dan Bird, but I was like, no.

[AJ Machalka]

And Dan Blossom, he would be high, and we would be having, like, the most fun time. We would be like, sober as hell.

[Allie Machalka]

Supper Club.

[AJ Machalka]

That was anyone. Yeah. Separate club. And Dan would, like, take care of us. You know, he'd be like, you know, they're for me. You know, because we were, like. We were very, very close with Dan.

[Allie Machalka]

I don't think this happened, like, many times. No, it definitely.

[AJ Machalka]

But it definitely happened a handful Whereas again, I think people knew we were like the good girls and they would be like. Like, they can roll with us. Like, they're. They're cool, but, like, they're straight edge, you know?

[Allie Machalka]

Totally. Totally.

[Penn Badgley]

That's cool.

[Allie Machalka]

Did you guys do Easy A and Roommate together or was that Cam Gigante who did both?

[Penn Badgley]

I was not in Roommate.

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

Is that the question? If I'm understanding it correctly, Yeah. I was not in Roommate. Barely in Easy A. I get way more credit for it than. Than is due.

[Allie Machalka]

No.

[AJ Machalka]

Okay, so you weren't in a Roommate together have scenes together really often?

[Penn Badgley]

No. I think I remember us being. I remember us being together a few times. Like, maybe in the G. There was a gym sequence.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

And we maybe had some meals, like off site.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, because we were all in Ojai.

[Allie Machalka]

I remember the Ojai days really well. That was a great. It was really charming, great movie, great cast.

[AJ Machalka]

I just.

[Allie Machalka]

I just swore that. Because that was all Clint Culpepper, right?

[AJ Machalka]

That was.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

So I was like.

[Penn Badgley]

That's right. Yes.

[AJ Machalka]

I feel like.

[Penn Badgley]

So Clint Culpepper was the head of Screen Gems, the studio that made that then. And they must have made Roommate too.

[Allie Machalka]

They did, yeah. That's why I just assumed you were in both.

[AJ Machalka]

And I feel like I lit. I feel probably like the last time I saw you was maybe at a screening. Premiere or Premiere. Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

It must have been. Yeah. I don't know when it would have been, but I. Yeah, it's like sometime like probably 15 years ago.

[Allie Machalka]

That's because Emma and her had become really close at that point. We had met Taylor swift at the Easy 8 premiere because she came.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, yeah. I think you're right.

[Allie Machalka]

Because she came to be with Emma.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. And that was like Gossip Girl after that or was that happening? That was happening.

[Penn Badgley]

Gossip Girl was during all that. Because Easy A. I mean, Easy A. I remember getting the call from my manager. I think I'm like 21 or 22. I was probably 21. And I remember getting the call for like the script and they said, it's high school. And I was like, there's no fucking way that I can play a high schooler again. Like, guys, it just seems to be a stretch. Like, do I have to wear a backpack?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And I was like, literally, guys, I'm not gonna wear a fucking backpack. Like, I'm not gonna do it. It' a 22 year old man.

[AJ Machalka]

And.

[Penn Badgley]

And. And here's. Do you remember reading the script? The script was a hard R. The Script was.

[AJ Machalka]

I remember I. I read the script, I feel like too, in its kind of early stages and I remember it being really hard R and Mike there specifically being really hard R. Yes.

[Sophie Ansari]

You know, your character constantly saying she was a.

[Nava Kavilan]

Constantly.

[AJ Machalka]

And honestly, like in the grand scheme of things, I feel like my role kind of got shafted the most. Cause some of the funniest stuff was the stuff that was like really.

[Penn Badgley]

It was the really obscene stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's true. I don't remember anything well enough to be able to say like, no, but it turned out well.

[Allie Machalka]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

But actually I have thought about that periodically throughout the years.

[AJ Machalka]

That's funny.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't think that it was. I mean, I think it was like a congenial bait and switch. I think the studio screen gems knew we are never mixed the R version of this. That's not marketable. But they did kind of get that phenomenal supporting adult cast because it was a refreshingly, you know.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, it was like a. It was like a team or super bad for, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah. And. And with the hard R like version on the page, it was like, wow, this is a really different. Like how, how. You know, it was just. It was just. It was. I mean it was really funny. It grabbed everyone the right amount of subversive. And I remember, I don't know if you recall this. This. We shot both versions. Every scene had the R version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every scene had the R version and had the pg.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Somebody needs to release the R version. That's crazy. That's a. That's a. That's a mine. What's that called?

[Penn Badgley]

Gold mine.

[AJ Machalka]

C word in gold mine.

[Penn Badgley]

It's called commercially viable.

[Allie Machalka]

Na.

[Penn Badgley]

It's. We're going to have to learn something about that.

[Nava Kavilan]

A gold mine. That's a gold mine.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

I can't believe it hasn't been released,

[AJ Machalka]

but. Yes. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

Wow.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[AJ Machalka]

Cutting edge. But. And I don't think Dan. I don't think I had any scenes of Dan.

[Penn Badgley]

And by the way, for the listeners, Dan is in that film as well. Wait, so would you have met Dan during.

[AJ Machalka]

I already knew him.

[Allie Machalka]

Knowing him, I worked with Dan.

[AJ Machalka]

Now this is a great 12 year old story.

[Allie Machalka]

This is so dark.

[AJ Machalka]

This is dark.

[Allie Machalka]

I worked with Dan on the Guardian

[AJ Machalka]

when I was on the Guardian.

[Allie Machalka]

Okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

All right.

[Allie Machalka]

He guest starred and he played my cousin who sexually assaulted me. And it was such a gnarly scene. They had to use a body double for my character. And Dan was so disturbed when he books the wall and him and I got to know each other on set, and I'm this little girl that's like, you. He literally rapes my character in the show. Like, it's awful.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my goodness.

[Allie Machalka]

And it was so heavy. And then Dan and I literally, like, after that show, like, we all became friends. Like, we. And we.

[Penn Badgley]

We.

[Allie Machalka]

To this day, we talk about, like, how insane.

[AJ Machalka]

I think we also, like, had a similar. I mean, when you guys met. Obviously.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

On set. But had, like, a similar sense of humor, you know, Very much. Obviously, you were younger than. Than Dan. But then once we started to get, like, closer and we all kind of met, it was kind of like, oh, like, you're.

[Sophie Ansari]

Are.

[AJ Machalka]

You're our type of person.

[Allie Machalka]

And then Dan put DZA with Ally, and it was like, oh, you're.

[AJ Machalka]

And then everyone says, oh, my gosh. I'm so excited we're gonna have. And then it was like, I had no seeds with him. I was like, damn.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

I have so many questions. I just have to know. So for that scene, how old was your character?

[Allie Machalka]

She was 12, 13.

[Nava Kavilan]

So they filmed it with a body double. Like, the audience sees the rape. They don't just turn the camera away.

[Allie Machalka]

You don't see the rape, but you see him get on top of her violently. And then they cut away, and you see underwear get pulled off, legs. It's awful. But it was an adult body double who just was styled to look like a kid. She was tiny. And it's crazy how they did stuff like that. It was a CBS show, so they couldn't show much.

[Nava Kavilan]

I mean, thank God.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's crazy.

[AJ Machalka]

So that was our intro to Dan. So. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Dan is also a sweetheart.

[Allie Machalka]

Dan is an angel.

[Penn Badgley]

He's. He. Yeah. I would think of him like a little bit of a guardian angel in that world of, like, you know, clubbing. Because he is. He's just like. He's just, you know, got a. Got a good heart. You can't fall in with the wrong people when you're doing that 100%.

[Allie Machalka]

He's the kindest, like sweetest, funniest, wittiest guy I think I've ever met. And he's so not like a typical, like, quote unquote actor. That's what I think.

[Penn Badgley]

He's not at all.

[Allie Machalka]

These guys.

[AJ Machalka]

It's like, him not a review.

[Allie Machalka]

You guys don't have, like, the actor syndrome, which we all know exists.

[AJ Machalka]

That is true. These are just like, people that you like, you know, would just be, like, dying, laughing with, you know, at dinner or like, you know, driving to, like, a, you know, a concert or something. Like, just like, you just have the absolute best time. And we're still friends with him and his wife. We're still friends. We don't get to see Dan that much, but we saw him this. He saw him this past year with his daughter. With his daughter because they came.

[Penn Badgley]

That's amazing. Does he have one kid or more than one kid?

[AJ Machalka]

One long.

[Penn Badgley]

There's one. I haven't seen Dan in years, but he's the kind of person where at this point we probably see each other every, like, five or six years, and it's like we pick up right where we left off, and we're like, all

[AJ Machalka]

right, well, you know, we'll see you in five years.

[Penn Badgley]

See you when I see you.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, see you at our 50th.

[Penn Badgley]

His apartment. His apartment was such a safe space that I. My memory of it. His apartment. Cause, like, I have really kind of a dark memory and orientation of that time. You know, you guys said that you sort of had. There's a couple ways it can go, right? It can be very dark. It can be medioc, can be sort of grayish, or it can be, like, surprisingly not dark at all. I had kind of a dark turn of things, but his apartment was, like, very much a. Actually one of the safest spaces I remember in it all.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah. I'm sorry.

[Allie Machalka]

I'm sorry that you had such a rough.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's. You know, it's. Wrote a book about it if you want to get.

[Allie Machalka]

Did you really?

[Penn Badgley]

Well, we. We wrote a book. Yeah. Nava, hold it. Hold it up right there.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, I mean, all this. Yeah. Seen your guys post about it.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

Well, we gotta. We gotta read it and get traumatized. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, his. His apartment was. You're right. Like a. Like a spot that felt like safe and that you could just have fun and be yourself. I think, like, his contact in my phone is literally a photo of me wearing, like, red goggle glove, you know, red goggles that he had, like, in his house that were just, like, pooping around. And that's like contact. And that's the contact photo.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's cute.

[AJ Machalka]

Pretty funny.

[Nava Kavilan]

Let's talk about your music even more than we have. It feels like your first, like, really big hit is potential breakup song. Is that true?

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, I would say the first, like, big single was Rush. Like, that is really what kicked it off like that. At least. At least in the Disney Channel world. No one rush those two hit, but

[AJ Machalka]

neither none of these songs, but nothing hit the radio. None of these songs were radio hits. Like, if you think about it, these songs are like, like, yeah, like they're just kind of sleepers in a way.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, they were hits in their own way, but in a very insular way.

[AJ Machalka]

But.

[Allie Machalka]

But potential breakup song was probably the, the biggest.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

But Rush maybe, maybe the fan base building. Because it sounds like though, you know, you've got lifelong kind of hardcore fans.

[Allie Machalka]

No, we do.

[AJ Machalka]

We.

[Allie Machalka]

I do feel like we have like, like life lifers, which is amazing and not many people can say that, so it obviously does speak to the music. I just don't think we ever had like the typical quote unquote, like, hit single. You know what I mean? Like, we never really like crapped the billboard 10. We never like, we never got on the radio in a way that was like, oh, wow, they've really.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, I think we were too young.

[Allie Machalka]

It just didn't.

[AJ Machalka]

We were too young as it. Which is funny given that now so many people, which is great. There's no age break at a really young age. But like, if you said, hey, you know, know we're Gonna put a 16 and 14 year old cover, you know, on Z1 hardest on. On Z100, it's not gonna be mean, like they're children, they'd belong, you know, Radio Disney. So, like, yeah, I mean, the music now, which is funny, has changed I think so drastically from potential breakup song in a way like that I feel like people still know, like, oh, that's Allie and aj but it feels like the music has really evolved from those days, you know.

[Allie Machalka]

But there's such a core following who have stuck with us since the beginning that they're willing to like, like, totally just stay on the ride, even though it's completely different music, which is really cool.

[AJ Machalka]

Which is cool. And we always play like potential breakup song and Rush and no one and stuff, you know, at shows we're very, we're very, very like wanting to give the fans those songs because I think it's important. And I try to think of. We try to think of going to concerts ourselves and wanting to hear the songs that are our favorite song from the artist, you know.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, that's really generous.

[AJ Machalka]

Want to be selfish and just be like, I'm only playing you the new song up. But. But I think it's important, you know, and it's actually. It is fun to play.

[Nava Kavilan]

How did it feel to have that song come back into like huge popularity on social media? Yeah. How did that feel for you guys,

[Allie Machalka]

it's crazy because in some ways it feels like potential breakup song is. Got bigger just from the TikTok world than it. Than it was when it first came out itself.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

So, yeah, it not only had a resurgence, but I almost think surpassed what it was in the beginning. It's crazy. I mean, it. It really surprised Ali and I when that year hit and we saw that that song had taken off in a new way. I. I think a lot of the people that discovered that song weren't really. They didn't know about the song when it first came out because they were so young. So they were either being introduced to it through a sibling or maybe an older friend or. I don't know how some of these people even got to know potential breakup song, but it landed on TikTok in a way that was like, wow, how is this generation picking this song up right now? But some people think. Think, you know, it was a brand new song, which was also hilarious, you know, and we ended up just kind of just fully committing to it and going, all right, we weren't really going to join this TikTok craze and we

[AJ Machalka]

just committed to the bit and said,

[Penn Badgley]

all right, let's you re recorded it.

[Nava Kavilan]

Right?

[AJ Machalka]

We did.

[Allie Machalka]

We re recorded it. An explicit, an R rated version, if you will.

[AJ Machalka]

We say fa.

[Penn Badgley]

The original easy A version.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, it's not easy.

[Allie Machalka]

It's a Harvard R. We see the C word in it. It's crazy. And it's. Yeah. So we, we literally play that version now live. And it's like, it's just fun. I think everyone just feels like it's a way to like, you know, release their inner child and. Yeah, it's always so fun actually to play that song live. It doesn't really get old. Even though we play it all the time.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's so good. I can't get over how intertwined the making of Silver Deliverer is with your birth. Ali. It's just the fact that you went and recorded a week after your son was born and brought him with you. The way you described it, I've heard you describe it. Sounds so beautiful.

[AJ Machalka]

Thank you.

[Sophie Ansari]

But having been postpartum myself, like one week, just, it's like I have so many questions, like, logistically, I don't think we need to get into that, but I just want to hear more about that time and what that recording was like.

[AJ Machalka]

I love talking about this moment. I think part of the reason is because it was a really positive birthday birth and. And I think the Reason why it was a positive birth was I was reading a lot of. And watching a lot of positive births and birth stories, and I really got, like, just fascinated with this whole space and pan. I know. You know, Domino has been in this world for years now, and I really went into it completely blind. And. And I just was like, I want to learn as much as I possibly can about, like, just how to get through this labor. And these are the things that I'm really wanting to, like, get from my labor, and these are the things I'm really not willing to, like, you know, negotiate. And that, in some roundabout way, you know, brought me to the home birth space, which is kind of crazy because that's not where we started. It was like I was gonna go in Cedars, you know, the famous doctor that's, you know, delivering all the famous babies vibes. And then I just. It was weird. It's just like it took like two, three little things. That was like a trickle down effect. And then, like, next thing I know, I'm like, telling my husband, like, I think I should have a home birth. And he's like, huh? And we're like, yeah, like, let's meet a midwife. Let's do this. And then I'm telling AJ and she's like, I'm into it.

[Allie Machalka]

Let's do this from the get go. I was like, don, you can do it. I support you fully.

[AJ Machalka]

And amaz. Um, and then I think again, because it was this really, like, you know, dream birth situation, I think my postpartum was so positive and I was on such a high, I was like, yeah, let's get back to the studio. Like, I gotta cut those vocals. Like, the baby is great. And like, you know, we, like, the umbilical cord was burned in our. In our bed. And we're just like, you know, Steve and I are just, like, you know, on this high. And AJ's also, like, like, in this baby high, too. She comes over, you know, two days after I've given birth in Santa Barbara.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm surprised you weren't there to catch it, frankly.

[AJ Machalka]

Honestly.

[Allie Machalka]

Same, same. I should have met him. I met him two days later. I'm very upset I didn't catch him.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. 48 hours. Yeah, it's a long time.

[AJ Machalka]

Very long time.

[Allie Machalka]

It's too long if you ask me.

[AJ Machalka]

But, yeah, like, we were already in the middle of long. Long story short, we were in the middle of already, like, recording. Like, we'd started pre production.

[Allie Machalka]

He came early.

[AJ Machalka]

He came two and a half early. So we Were like.

[Nava Kavilan]

We knew.

[AJ Machalka]

We were really, like, you know, riding it close, but we were like, yeah, it's my first pregnancy. I'll probably be late. Like, we've got, like, three weeks, you know, to really, like, cut this record. And it'll probably be like, which is plenty of time.

[Allie Machalka]

Like, we thought we're gonna be done with this by the time he comes.

[AJ Machalka]

And then, literally, I'm not kidding you, we had one day of pre pro, which I'm actually so glad we had the second day. It's like my water breaks at AJ's house in Laurel Canyon, and the studio is in Topanga Canyon, and we just are like, oh, we gotta immediately leave. Like, we're out. You know, she trails us with her boyfriend to get us all set up at the house in Santa Barbara, and then she's kind of like, bye, I love you. You know, like, leaving, knowing, like, the next time I see you're going to probably have a kid. Which is weird. Like, that was a very specific sister moment.

[Allie Machalka]

Crazy. And then I went back to Topanga.

[AJ Machalka]

She went back to Topanga. She helped cut the band. I'm on, like, Zoom Link, you know, like, kind of just like. Yeah, it sounds great, you know, like in kind of some, like, light contractions, but it's not, like, really yet.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, there was one day where she really was, like, adamant about I need to be involved in a zoom.

[AJ Machalka]

I was having such fomo, but she's.

[Allie Machalka]

She's got, like. She's dealing with contractions, and we're all just kind of like, okay, you can go now. Like, it's all so wild.

[AJ Machalka]

And then eventually it was like, all

[Allie Machalka]

of a sudden, like, the camera went black, and I'm like, I think. I think we can end this session.

[AJ Machalka]

I think we're good. And then it was kind of like, maybe 24 hours later or something, probably.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

Kind of vibe. He was delivered. But, yeah, we just, like, you know, we'd already rented this house in Topanga, and Jonathan Wilson, who produced the album, is just, like, such a salt of the earth, wonderful human and was really lovely musician.

[Penn Badgley]

I love his work.

[AJ Machalka]

He's amazing. And the coolest human being. Yeah, truly. And he also, funny enough, had just found out that he was. That they were pregnant, which was really cool. So we were in this, like, bubble of, like, well, this is wild. Like, we just found out that, you know, your wife is like, like, you know, only, like, maybe, like, a month in. And was it there first, by chance, your first? Yeah. And so. So, yeah. So, Jack, we literally brought to the studio on day seven.

[Allie Machalka]

Eight.

[AJ Machalka]

Seven, I think. And we brought all of the stuff that we kind of needed. And I remember, like, I got a little bit emotional. Like, we checked into the Airbnb, you know, that we were at, you know, this, right? Like, I kind of started crying. Like, did I do the right thing? That, like, we're here and, like, you know, I was used to our little bubble a little bit, you know, and it wasn't like, it was like, bad vibes or anything. It was just kind of like. I think I was also kind of exhausted, you know, I was still, like, healing and feeling a little guilty. Is it okay that we don't have. We took him out of Santa Barbara and are doing this and. And my husband just, like, we can drive back home right now if you want, you know, And I was kind of like, let's, like, just give it, like, a couple days, and if I feel really bad and it's not right, like, then we'll just, like, you know, go back home. And then, like, cut to. It's like, you know, I'm holding the baby and, like, cutting vocals while he's, like, feeding, you know, it was just like. And that babe, just.

[Sophie Ansari]

Were you actually. Were you. He were holding him.

[AJ Machalka]

Oh, yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

There's, like, a lot of photos. We have actually really cool video of, like, him. I mean, he is so tiny. I'm like, this is psychotic. There's moments where it's like I'm holding

[Allie Machalka]

him in the control room with. With his giant headphones on and Ally singing. And then we switched so that I could go sing, and Allie was with him. So we had a really good.

[AJ Machalka]

Jonathan holding him.

[Allie Machalka]

Jonathan's holding him.

[AJ Machalka]

I mean, like, the. Like, my husband's there. You know, it helped that my husband was also solo, like, in the trenches with us, too, you know, like, this wouldn't possible if I didn't have a husband that was like, yeah, like, while you're cutting vocals, I'm just here with him and, like, very. You know, I would pump if I kind of need. I didn't really even need to. I was just. That he was just there in the studio. So, like, when I wow thing, I just come right back and then be like, oh, he's been asleep for three hours. Like, just keep him.

[Allie Machalka]

And then the cool thing is we all lived. So because Jonathan was in Topanga and Ally and I didn't want to do the drive every day, like, we all ended up living in the same house together. So it was me, Ally, the newborn Steven My partner, Steven and AJ's partner

[AJ Machalka]

are cooking all these beautiful.

[Penn Badgley]

That's actually great because immediately postpartum, you need a lot of different kinds of support. Like, social, practical. It's such a huge change that new parents go through. And it's also deeply spiritual portal energy, I think even the deepest of nihilistic atheists. When you live through. When you finally just see, like, how everybody gets here, you're like, what?

[AJ Machalka]

Yes, this is how.

[Penn Badgley]

This is happening all the time. Like this, like, where we just pop out.

[AJ Machalka]

Everybody does this from nowhere.

[Nava Kavilan]

Everybody's done this.

[AJ Machalka]

And frankly, do you need. You know, obviously, when we look back on our, like, ancestors, we really relied on our communities. Right. You know, we're like, someone about cooking. Yeah. Someone's cooking, like, the doula that's there. That is.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Unique. Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

And, you know, that is, like, helping tend to you or it's like the. I think in birth a. We know there's a lot of fear around birth, which, you know, I'm always trying to talk to my girlfriends that are newly pregnant or have never been pregnant. I'm like, you don't need to be afraid. Like, our bodies are meant to do this. Like, so much of this is, like, just in our DNA and, like, we're so powerful and we're so capable. But, like, outside of that, a lot of it is, like, like, very. It can be isolating in a way where that should. This should be the least isolating moment, you know, it should be you leaning on a sibling or a family member or a friend that by. With a meal, you know, and thankfully, in that first. Those first, you know, three, four weeks, it was like we were around so many fo and community, which is awesome.

[Penn Badgley]

And making art, which is cool. That's like, a cool that. It's just, like, imbued in it, you know, Even the name Silver. Did you have the name Silver Deliverer then?

[Allie Machalka]

We already did.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, we already did. And we talk about how. I mean, we were joking, but it is kind of funny that, like, my midwife has this beautiful long silver hair, and I was like, she is.

[Allie Machalka]

It's crazy.

[AJ Machalka]

But, like. Yeah, it just felt very. I don't know. It felt very. Just meant to be that the album will be called that, given that, like, birth was such a huge thing that was on my mind. That was on AJ's mind, you know, And I. And I think that, like, the album really, like, encompasses what we were trying to get at, which was like, this, like, celebration of, like, femininity and. And life and Life and these changes and also death too. You know, we went through a really hard the. The. The year prior to making the album, and we wrote a song about it on the record in a way that like, we'd never really written a song about before. And. And then also just like, you know, a song about kind of like embracing womanhood and the changes that come with that. A song about my son. But at that point, like, I didn't know I was having a son. I just knew I was, you know, having a child. And we wrote this song for. For him. It was very like, it was all meant to be. I mean, I would all just rewind and do it again and again on like a second. It was just so cool. And it was like one of those things where we'll never make an album like that, you know, again. But it was very much like a. A time capsule of that. That energy that, that we were able to experience together. It was so precious.

[Allie Machalka]

And it's crazy. Like, I know I'm sure tons of parents say this and I'm sure a bunch of aunts have claimed this, that they've seen this in their nephew. And it's totally fair. I think all kids are drawn to music. But it is wild. When you see this kid when he hears music, it's instant. He's just like immediately moving. Like his whole spirit moves and grooves with music. As soon as he hits, hears a vape, it's wild. And so I do think that that being that that was such a huge part of his life so early on on. It's so embedded in him. I mean, it doesn't mean necessarily he doesn't have to be a musician. He can do whatever he wants, but like, music internally in him is such a thriving part of his body. It's wild.

[AJ Machalka]

It's funny because my husband mentions that, like, when we did that pre production day, I think there was like us singing some songs and he was like, it was loud, you know, like. And you're. You're pretty pregnant. He's like, this kid wanted to get out of there. He was like, I need headphones. He sticks up in this joint.

[Allie Machalka]

I'm out.

[AJ Machalka]

Sad about that. I don't know. I was like, maybe he was just like, good, I'm ready. I'm ready to be in the studio and listen to these songs get cut, you know, real time. Well, you.

[Nava Kavilan]

We heard that you have an upcoming tour. Is it the Places to Run tour? If that's accurate. Can you tease something for your fans? Can you tease a little Something that they can expect on that tour.

[AJ Machalka]

We're really excited.

[Allie Machalka]

I mean, this is essentially an extension of the Silver Deliverer tour from this last run. You know, Ally and I didn't feel like we had really hit enough spots. I mean, we're so excited about this music. We're so excited about this record. And sometimes when you go out and tour an album and you end the tour, you're kind of like, wow, that chapter's closed. I guess we'll go make a new record. And for us, it's like Silver Deliver still feels like a very present part of our lives. We were like, let's add 40 more shows to the tour and see what happens. And for Ally and I, we thrive when we're on stage. Like, we love it. We love being at the studio, but we love being on the road. And we've had such a good experience the last couple months. Coming off of the Silver Deliverer tour,

[AJ Machalka]

we didn't know how it would be.

[Allie Machalka]

We didn't know how it would be with, you know, a two. An almost two year old. And it was fantastic. And we're really lucky that we have an amazing band and crew around us. And Ali had help and we had two buses, which we were very blessed that we had. And so now we're like, well, let's do this again and let's make the show a little different. Like, let's add some more songs. Let's take away a couple songs that maybe have already been heard. Let's put out a couple new songs in the new year and also tour those. Visually, it'll be similar, but we're going to do different, you know, a different VIP activation. We're going to do different. A little, slightly different merch. Like, there will be changes to the tour, but it's essentially, you know, an extension of the celebr.

[AJ Machalka]

We just wanted it. We just. We just wanted more on and more.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, just do it more.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's amazing. There was a video you guys made maybe on your last tour, like pre show.

[Nava Kavilan]

Pre.

[Sophie Ansari]

Pregaming the show or something. And it was like all of you on toddler instruments and toys.

[AJ Machalka]

Yes, yes. Doing that set up backstage. That's like.

[Allie Machalka]

I think we were singing like Vanessa Carlton.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, we were doing something and the band was like playing with Jack. He's kind of got like a whole system where it's like all of his little toys and stuff get rolled out and he just kind of like walk in the halls with like a tambourine and a harmonica and, you know, it's

[Allie Machalka]

like he's big into the harmonica.

[AJ Machalka]

He's just like a little road. Road dog.

[Penn Badgley]

That's cool.

[AJ Machalka]

Very cool. I think it'll be a cool childhood, you know, I mean he'll probably be so like, he'll probably think that he'll

[Allie Machalka]

either be so over it or be like, I got to do this with my life.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, it'll be one or the other, but it'll be very normal to him, which is funny. It's like that's just such a trip to be like a kid that's just like, oh yeah. No, I live on a tour bus for like half the year. It's like, wow.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So we'll, it'll take us full circle, which we ask everybody. So maybe this one. AJ, you'll go first. If you could go back to 12 year old AJ, what would you say or do if anything?

[Allie Machalka]

I think I would tell myself, myself to embrace and hold on to like the childlike wonder in life longer than even most people want to hold onto it for. I think a lot of us want to get into our like teen years and our adult years and we feel like, okay, it's time to shed the child's skin. And it's like, I want to, I would want to say to myself, like, hang on to that as long as possible because once it's gone, it's totally gone. Like you don't get those moments again where you're cuddled up with your parents because you got scared and you're sleeping in their bed. Like those moments are gone and then you don't get them back. So it's. I would just say to soak up every moment, to not grow up too fast and to just really, really enjoy the moment of being a kid and thrive.

[Penn Badgley]

How about you, Ali?

[AJ Machalka]

I mean, I think that is a. Is a great one and I would probably want to say the same.

[Allie Machalka]

And I think we followed that a little bit.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, I think we are.

[Allie Machalka]

I don't think that was missing. And I wish.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, like, I don't. We didn't like grow up too fast. I think in the grand scheme of things, like being in the industry, I

[Allie Machalka]

think made us grow up a little faster.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[AJ Machalka]

Made us grow up a little faster than we would have. But we also like moved out out of our parents house when we were like 21 and 23, which is late.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Allie Machalka]

So we soaked it up.

[AJ Machalka]

We soaked it up and then we like moved in together, you know, so we were like first place together. So like our childhood still feels very like it's very easy to kind of dip in that pond and access. But like childlike wonder and innocence is like so precious and so special that I would, I would say the same thing. The other thing that I would say is I would be like, it's really important that you keep taking piano lessons and you find a teacher that you're actually really passionate about and click with that makes it feel fun and not like a chore. Because that as, you know, as work started getting more and more consistent. Less practice, less practice, less time to practice. And then you just kind of drop off and you're like, I know. You know now I, I don't take classes so therefore I'm not able to sight read. Like I would love to be able to sight read. That's a really. But like I would tell my 12 year old self like, you're really going to want to sight read in your, you know, in your.

[Allie Machalka]

We told people before 20 hours.

[AJ Machalka]

Like every musician goes, don't you do cares. I'm like, yeah, I know I would like it. For me it would just be cool to sit down and just play. Like.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, no, no. Because it does unlock something that's.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, it would be a great tool to have. Do I think that sometimes it puts us in a box in a writing scenario that's actually good? Yeah, I do. Yeah. But that would be something that I would like, love to like rewind time and just like. Yeah.

[Allie Machalka]

And then I think I would say don't. Well, I don't know. I think it was so meant to be. We did take those years. But I think I, in the moment I would want to tell myself, don't take 10 years off of making music.

[AJ Machalka]

Yeah, like keep.

[Allie Machalka]

Not like you have to commit to it full time. Like keep plowing through the acting thing. But like I think in general, Ali and I not touring for 10 years and not actively putting out music for 10 years in a way is kind of a shame.

[AJ Machalka]

In our 20s is like it was like the moment our, our peak, you know. So it's funny that that kind of like went into the shadows. Yeah, the acting was really happening at the moment and we were kind of like lost in and trying to find out who we were as artists. Eventually got to the other side of that. But 10 years is like a long time. So long time, you know. So yeah, I would probably be like, don't, don't go away. Like just keep touring even, even if it's not new music. You know, keep, keep going out there shows.

[Nava Kavilan]

Thank you so much.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you both so much for coming on.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, thank you.

[Allie Machalka]

This was so nice to talk about our childhood and thank God it was a good one. Otherwise we wouldn't want to have this.

[AJ Machalka]

That's true.

[Allie Machalka]

That's true.

[Nava Kavilan]

So encouraging.

[Allie Machalka]

Yeah, yeah. And you guys are really sweet and fun. This was awesome.

[Nava Kavilan]

You can get tickets to Ali and AJ's Places to Run 2026 tour on their website Alyandaj.com that's Ali A L Y and you can check out their album on all streaming platforms.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podfresh is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to POD Crushed ad ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all.

[Nava Kavilan]

Bye.

[Allie Machalka]

You know when you're just going about

[Sophie Ansari]

your busy day and a voice asks

[AJ Machalka]

you something like why do people have crushes? Or do dogs know their dogs?

[Sophie Ansari]

The Brainz on podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts, and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages.

[AJ Machalka]

Whether you grew up with jfk, MT

[Sophie Ansari]

tv, tlc, or tmz, brainson is for you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Find brains on Wherever you get your podcasts.

[AJ Machalka]

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Allie Machalka]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[AJ Machalka]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.