Ashley Flowers

Summary

Podcrushed Episode Summary: Ashley Flowers

Podcast Information:

• Title: Podcrushed
• Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
• Description: Podcrushed — the podcast where Penn Badgley reads your middle school story explores the heartbreak, anxiety, and self-discovery of being a teenager. Hosts Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, and Sophie Ansari bring you stories and conversations about middle school—from childhood crushes to battles with body hair, to schoolyard scuffles. The results are sometimes awkward, sometimes heartwarming, and always relatable.
• Episode: Ashley Flowers
• Release Date: May 28, 2025

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Introduction to Ashley Flowers

The episode opens with a lighthearted exchange among the hosts, Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, and Sophie Ansari, discussing their childhood antics and the origins of Podcrushed. They introduce their guest, Ashley Flowers, a New York Times bestselling author and host of the immensely popular true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Ashley is here to promote her recent novel, The Missing Half, and to delve into her teenage years, offering listeners a glimpse into her formative experiences.

Ashley’s Upbringing in a Strict Religious Environment

Ashley shares her upbringing in Indiana, detailing a life deeply intertwined with her father's role as an associate pastor at a mega church. "We lived on the premises of the church. We had to go to services multiple times a week. And it was like such a freaking bubble", she reflects (07:17). This insular environment fostered an "us versus them" mentality, shaping her worldview during middle school. The rigidity of her community instilled in her a desire to seek a larger life beyond the confines of the church’s influence.

Lifelong Friendship with Britt and Shared Interests

A fascinating aspect of Ashley's life is her soulmate-like friendship with Britt, a fellow member of the same church community. Both were born on the same day, creating an unbreakable bond. Ashley recounts, "Brit, who's on Crime Junkie with you, is a lifelong friend of yours and that you were you born on the same day we were. That is so wild" (09:07). Together, they developed a shared obsession with true crime from a young age, rewriting songs about boys and solving mysteries out of pure fascination.

Developing a Passion for True Crime

Ashley explains that her passion for true crime was ignited early on, particularly influenced by her mother's love for mysteries and classic detective shows. She recalls a pivotal moment when she became fixated on true crime stories after encountering a high-profile case close to her age. "I couldn't get enough. I just became obsessed with the genre" (11:51). This unwavering interest laid the foundation for her future endeavors in podcasting and writing.

Launching Crime Junkie and Building a Media Empire

Transitioning to adulthood, Ashley discusses the inception of Crime Junkie and her podcasting company, Audio Chuck. Initially partnering with a local radio station in Indianapolis, she created an eight-minute segment that quickly became the station’s top-rated feature. Recognizing the potential for greater creative control, she launched her own podcast, aiming to deliver in-depth true crime stories without the constraints of traditional radio formats. "I got to this point where I was like, well, maybe I should just make the show I keep waiting for" (34:00).

Within a year of simultaneously working a full-time job and developing her podcast, Ashley successfully transitioned to focusing solely on Crime Junkie, achieving over a billion lifetime downloads and cementing it as one of the most popular true crime podcasts globally.

Balancing Creative Passion with Practicality

Ashley candidly shares the challenges of balancing her creative ambitions with practical responsibilities. She admits, "While I was doing the podcast for the whole first year, I worked full time... It was a brutal first year" (22:22). This period of intense dedication highlights her commitment and the sacrifices made to realize her passion, ultimately leading to the success of her media ventures.

Embarrassing Teenage Memories and Personal Growth

In a heartfelt segment, Ashley reminisces about her high school experiences, including humorous and embarrassing moments. From performing as a dancing pig at famous local barbecue joints to getting physically stuck in her high school's crowded hallways, she shares anecdotes that humanize her journey. These stories illustrate her transition from a socially awkward teenager to a confident media figure. "I have these horrendous home movies where I would write a murder mystery and make my family act it out" (00:06).

Philosophy of Compassion and Community Building

Ashley delves into her philanthropic efforts, particularly through her nonprofit, Season of Justice. Motivated by her challenging upbringing and a desire to give back, she emphasizes the importance of compassion and community support. "My parents instilled in me this idea of always trying to help people that are in a worse spot than you are" (16:20). Her organization has funded numerous cold case solves and supports various community initiatives, reflecting her commitment to making a tangible impact.

True Crime Consumption and Ethical Storytelling

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the ethical considerations of true crime media. Ashley expresses concern over the desensitization of audiences to real tragedies and the importance of honoring victims and their families. "How can we consume it better, more responsibly so that we're not continuing to cause more harm to the people who've already suffered the biggest loss?" (42:00). This introspection underscores her dedication to responsible storytelling within the true crime genre.

Reflections and Advice to Her Younger Self

Concluding the episode, Ashley offers poignant advice to her younger self and, by extension, to listeners navigating their own tumultuous adolescence. She shares a simple yet powerful philosophy she adopted: "It's gonna be okay. Sweet." This mantra, displayed on a wooden box in her home, serves as a beacon of hope and resilience. "All the feelings feel so big and it does feel like your world is ending for stuff as an adult you think is simple and it's not to like" (51:52).

Final Thoughts and Community Impact

Ashley’s journey from a sheltered, community-bound child to a successful media entrepreneur and philanthropist is both inspiring and relatable. Her commitment to empowering others, addressing ethical concerns in true crime storytelling, and fostering a supportive community highlights her multifaceted impact. The episode wraps up with the hosts expressing admiration for Ashley’s accomplishments and her unwavering dedication to making the world a better place.

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Notable Quotes:

• "We lived on the premises of the church. We had to go to services multiple times a week. And it was like such a freaking bubble." — Ashley Flowers (07:17)
• "I couldn't get enough. I just became obsessed with the genre." — Ashley Flowers (11:51)
• "While I was doing the podcast for the whole first year, I worked full time... It was a brutal first year." — Ashley Flowers (22:22)
• "How can we consume it better, more responsibly so that we're not continuing to cause more harm to the people who've already suffered the biggest loss?" — Ashley Flowers (42:00)
• "It's gonna be okay. Sweet." — Ashley Flowers (51:52)

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Conclusion:

This episode of Podcrushed offers an intimate look into Ashley Flowers' life, from her restrictive upbringing to her meteoric rise in the world of true crime podcasting. Through engaging storytelling and thoughtful reflections, Ashley provides listeners with valuable insights into overcoming adversity, the importance of community, and ethical media consumption. Whether you're a fan of true crime or seeking inspiration from a compelling personal journey, this episode delivers a rich and multifaceted narrative that resonates deeply.

Transcript

[Sophie Ansari]

Lemonade.

[Ashley Flowers]

I've got these horrendous home movies that I used to make where I would, like, write a murder mystery and then make my family act it out. And I was literally even writing commercials into the movie because I knew you had to have an ad break and fund it somehow. Wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome to podcrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava Kavilan]

And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been.

[Sophie Ansari]

Your middle school besties making our furbies cute.

[Penn Badgley]

Kiss, give me some sugar. I don't know. Is that weird? Hug me with tongue. I don't know. That's. Oh, no. Welcome to podcast. I am your.

[Ashley Flowers]

Welcome.

[Sophie Ansari]

Welcome to podcast.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome to podcast.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podcast.

[Penn Badgley]

I am your crushed host, Pod Bachley.

[Sophie Ansari]

What is purse? Do you guys know that reference? It's another. It's another podcast reference. You wouldn't know.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, it's too good. We should definitely keep that. Well, I am your podcast host for Pod Crushed, named Pen Batchley, joined by my co hosts, Nava Cavlin and Sophie. I'm sorry. I. I. You know, my day job is not this. I. I'm an actor, right? So, like, I mean, what am I doing here? But I get things. I'm. I get. I get pictures of me sent of, like, to me of myself on the train a fair amount. You know, people at me, they tag me and I. And I saw a recent one that. That stuck out to me, not only because I'm wearing a new white hat post Joe, but I noticed I was wearing these headphones. And that's.

[Ashley Flowers]

This is.

[Penn Badgley]

This is real. So I typically don't like wearing headphones on the train at all. Big clunky ones, because they're. They're just. They're not comfortable. They're not sleek. If you're getting good sound, you're not getting the other attributes. These, no lie. These are so light. They are sleek. They're very comfortable, and you get incredible noise. Also, the battery is insane. You get, like, over 60 hours of active noise canceling playtime. It's JLab. I should say JLab. The Epic LuxLab edition headphones is a company that we've just found out about in the last year, and they make great stuff.

[Sophie Ansari]

I am wearing my JBuds mini right now. I mean, you could barely see them. They're so tiny. Tiny.

[Nava Kavilan]

Like a little.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like a little, tiny little girl.

[Nava Kavilan]

Adorable fairy.

[Sophie Ansari]

I love them. They come in so many different colors, and like you said, Ben, they last. The battery lasts for so long. I'VE never had earbuds that last that long. So, yeah, super practical. And the price point keeps it so that you can actually have like multiple pairs. Like you can have like your. Your JBuds mini that you use for the gym, the ones you use for home, the ones I use for my bedtime with my daughter to tune her out.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, healthy parenting.

[Nava Kavilan]

That really resonates with me because I have a curse when it comes to particularly headphones. Like, lifelong curse. Lose them, step on them, get them stolen. Somehow they never stay in my orbit. So it has been helpful to be able to afford to buy a few pairs. And this has been my favorite pair from the JLab. From the JLab. Yeah, from the JLab oeuvre, the EPIC Sport ANC3 Airbuds. They go over your ear and so far have not fallen out, have not been easy to snatch. So they're mine. And I wear them at night when I want to go on a walk. And I want to be alert, so you can make them noise canceling, but you can also be alert and hear what's happening. And that's my preferred mode.

[Sophie Ansari]

So if you see Penn on the subway wearing his JLab headphones, just snap a picture, send it to us.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, we're done.

[Nava Kavilan]

He loves. He loves Invasion.

[Penn Badgley]

That's what he's doing. Sorry, Soph. Sorry, navs. No, don't. You can at them.

[Sophie Ansari]

If you also have a problem with your ears, where things just pop out of them, you can snatch up a blue box at retailers everywhere, or you can head to jlab.com, you can use our code podcrushed, and you'll get 15% off of your order today.

[Penn Badgley]

Your ears, dear listener, are likely dying for us to just get to the episode, get to the guest, get to the cast. Right, get to.

[Sophie Ansari]

Who is it? Who is it?

[Penn Badgley]

Who is it? We don't know. We've tapped blindly.

[Nava Kavilan]

We don't know.

[Penn Badgley]

Today, Ashley Flowers, the New York Times bestselling author and host of Crime Junkie, which is a weekly true crime podcast you probably already know about. Cause it's one of the biggest ones out there. But in it, two lifelong best friends discuss all of these gripping cases that they can't get out of their heads. Since its debut in 2017, Crime Junkie has become one of the biggest podcasts of all time, with over a billion lifetime downloads, second only to podcrust. As you're. As you're well aware, she's here today. Mostly apart from picking apart her. Her teenage years, she's here to promote her recent novel, the Missing Half, which follows the gripping tale of two sisters who will do anything to find their missing halves, even if it means destroying everything they've ever known. We loved having Ashley here today. Truly. We think you will, too. Let's get on to it. Let's give her her flowers. Don't go any.

[Megan]

Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast.

[Penn Badgley]

Hi everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver, to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts. So, as you may or may not be aware, we start at 12. What was 12 year old Ashley Flowers like? How did she see the world? What was her day to day life like, home life, all that stuff?

[Ashley Flowers]

She was in a cult basically.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, okay, interesting.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, yeah. So at 12. So I live in Indiana currently. I was still living in Indiana, born and raised. I just left briefly for college. But my dad was a pastor at like one of those mega churches and he wasn't like the main pastor. He was called an associate pastor. We lived on the premises of the church. We like everything we did was at the church. We had to go to services multiple times a week. And it was like such a freaking bubble. I went to the school that was made like the church's school. So my whole world lived in this one parking lot essentially.

[Penn Badgley]

How many people do you think comprised that community?

[Ashley Flowers]

I mean, the church itself was like a couple thousand and I mean it would like it could hold 5,000 and in the summertime they would have this thing called camp meeting where everyone would come from like all over the country in their RVs to like hear, hear pastors speak or whatever. And I mean, it was like the whole mindset too, of how the church was and I mean, so many reasons I don't like it now is it was a very, like, us versus them. And I thought, like, the whole. The whole world operated the way we did. There was, like, very few people who were different. And it turns out, like, oh, no, we might have been the different ones.

[Penn Badgley]

Was the entire world them? Who is they to you?

[Ashley Flowers]

At 12, it was like the good Christians were us, and everyone else was.

[Penn Badgley]

Them and everyone else was them. That's a big them. It's a lot of them.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I know the three of us, for sure.

[Nava Kavilan]

Them.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, you guys had really probably exciting life, and we'll get there. But obviously things have changed for me drastically. But at 12, the world was small. There was no life outside of it for all of middle school until high school. I think the way that I rebelled is I remember I used to tell everyone there was no way in hell I'd ever marry a pastor, really, because that's what my dad was. And I saw it all around me. And I just think that back then, what I thought I wanted to do was I had a grandma who was a nurse. And I just remember seeing that as being like, oh, that's really financially stable. You could find a job anywhere. It was, like, super practical. And I continued to gravitate towards that because I did. I wanted a bigger life than that parking lot.

[Sophie Ansari]

In our research, I learned that Brit, who's on Crime Junkie with you, is a lifelong friend of yours and that you were you born on the same day we were. That is so wild. Such a fun fact.

[Penn Badgley]

In the same cult.

[Sophie Ansari]

Same cult, yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Same cult, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You must have been.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, sorry.

[Sophie Ansari]

I mean, I'm just.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's how we knew each other. So our moms both went to. Went to the church, and her parents had actually been trying to get pregnant for a very long time. Like 11 years. And my mom had me, and they had just started the adoption process. And when her mom came to visit my mom at the hospital, she. She told my mom was like, you know, or she told my mom, she's like, you know, this is bittersweet. Like, I'm so happy for you. But, like, this is the thing that I've wanted for so long that I can't have. And my mom was like, well, you know, for all you know, maybe your baby's being born right now. And three months later, they got Brit and found out she has the exact same birthday. And we've been like soulmates ever since.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow, that's wild.

[Sophie Ansari]

That is amazing. Well, so that made me curious, like, what was your friendship With Britt, like, at 12, were you super tight or were you running in the same. Just running in the same circles or.

[Ashley Flowers]

No, we were super tight. We spent a lot of time. She grew up on a farm, so like I had the house that was like attached to the church basically. But she lived like 20 minutes away on a farm. And so we were riding horses in our bathing suit to like. I mean, it was like, like small town, like little stuff. And her and I were like constantly rewriting. We were like the Weird Al Yankovic of middle school girls because we would rewrite all these songs about the boys in our lives. And we were on aim and solving mysteries. True crime was the thing that her and I always had together. Cause truly we could not be more different people, her and I. But for some reason we were both fascinated by this.

[Penn Badgley]

When do you think that started?

[Ashley Flowers]

I mean, for me, I don't know when it wasn't there. And I think my mom was super into mysteries and her mom before her, they weren't really into true crime. Like, they were just big fans of Agatha Christie books. And she'd watch Perry Mason and Columbo and all those geriatric murder shows. But I don't know, I tell people that I think the first time it hit me was I'm like really close to JonBenet's age. And I remember being Brit and I always said like tabloid height when we're at the grocery store seeing this thing and like having this moment of being like, oh my God, those, like those stories that you read me happen in real life. And from that moment on, I couldn't get enough. I just became obsessed with the genre.

[Nava Kavilan]

You've written a book called the Missing Half and we're gonna get there. But in the prologue, the. I don't even know what to call her yet. The victim is wearing a tankini and that specific word. Actually, you know, there's like a trend. There's been a trend on TikTok and Instagram that's like, girlhood is. And for me, girlhood is like choosing a matching tankini with my best friend at Abercrombie and F. It's like such a specific moment because I don't think they make tankinis anymore. They're like.

[Ashley Flowers]

They do.

[Sophie Ansari]

They're coming back.

[Ashley Flowers]

They're coming back.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley Flowers]

No way.

[Nava Kavilan]

They had popular.

[Sophie Ansari]

Let me just explain to Pen, because Pen doesn't know. A tankini is just like a two piece swimsuit, but instead of a bikini where it's like small triangles or you Know, whatever shape. It's like a tank top. So it's like a more modest.

[Nava Kavilan]

It was very popular when I was like 15, 16, and then they went out of style for decades. But. And I. So I actually, when I read it, it, like, triggered all of these memories. And I had a question for you. I had a two part question. Which one is, do you have a favorite water memory? Like, I feel like being around water is like such a childhood thing. I don't know if for you. And then two, do you have a fashion regret from your middle school years?

[Ashley Flowers]

I have, first of all, no fashion regrets. Like, take me back immediately.

[Sophie Ansari]

Take me back immediately.

[Ashley Flowers]

I would do it all over again. I also, like, I feel bad for you guys because I might be the worst host. Like, I left my, like, shame chip somewhere in my past life.

[Penn Badgley]

And you don't know. That's great.

[Ashley Flowers]

I. I'm sure I do. Like, I. My husband, like, knows my one weak spot, and he can, like, really embarrass me.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, we need him on.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, but it's like, I mean, he'll take. He'll take me to a bar. You know how they have those, like, tunes things where you, like, pay to play the song?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

He will just play Nickelback over and over and over until, like, people in the bar get mad and then he's like, the one singing along so you, like, know it's him. It's very like, I'll. I want to die when that happens. But that has nothing to do with fashion choices. Like, no, I like, I. Because mostly because, like, the 90s are kind of coming back in, like, early 2000s.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

But my water memory, I'm like the queen of nostalgia. When you talk about the tankini in the book, my favorite part in the book is actually this one moment. Later on, we talk about a memory where she did the George Washington hair.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

So it's like no specific memory, but it's just like those. Those, like, little things that you would do every time. Like, I don't know, like, there are certain things that I can do now that, like, take me straight back to being young and, like, when the world felt so easy.

[Nava Kavilan]

Mm.

[Ashley Flowers]

I heard a quote somewhere from. There was this. There's this podcast I listened to called Decoder Ring. And she said that the world was never less complicated. We were just too young to know that it was. And like. And I think that's kind of the truth. Like, we. There was always something, but it feels so messy now. I keep saying, I'm gonna create you guys Saw the Village, right. Like, I'm not gonna ruin the village for anyone.

[Sophie Ansari]

I actually didn't watch it, but I have to go ahead.

[Nava Kavilan]

For ruining shows and movies.

[Penn Badgley]

This is actually, like, one of the. I don't know. It's a good one. So it's a. It's an unfortunate spoiler, but go ahead. It's good.

[Nava Kavilan]

Please skip ahead, listeners. If you want to watch the Village, just.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, like, you're gonna lose listeners because of the Village. Yeah. So it looks like they're in the 1800s, and they all grow up in this village, and there's these monsters on the other side that they're protecting their kids from and all of this. And you end up realizing the big twist at the end is when they finally go past the barrier, it's just like modern day. So they had been shielding them from everything. And I keep telling everyone in my life, I'm gonna buy a compound one day, and I am just gonna wall it off. But it's gonna. Instead of being the 1800s, it's gonna be the 90s, and I'm just gonna, like, re. Release an Alanis Morsette cd. Every once in a while. Josie's gonna get a pager. It's gonna be, like, the best time.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, exactly. That's the best decade.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm curious. I was looking through your Instagram, and I feel like every. Almost every post, every other post in your caption, you are asking specifically single moms to leave their Venmo handles so that you can, like, help out with a bill or something, which I was really struck by, like, just the. The amount that you do that and how much in. In other areas of your career, it seems like you are really focused on giving back as well. And I was curious what you think in your upbringing led to that, if anything, or if it was something that came on later.

[Penn Badgley]

And also if we could just give you our handles.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, perfect. I do think it. I mean, I think it was like, I talk a lot about the bad parts of my upbringing and, like, in a light way, and. But I mean, it was a. It was a little traumatic. And I. But what I. What I am so grateful for and that my parents instilled in me was this idea of always, like, trying to help people that are in a worse spot than you are. Even when we had nothing. And I mean, like, we truly had nothing. At one point. At one point, like, we were on, like, food stamps. My dad was still, like, always giving and giving. Like, that was just his nature. And I know what it Was like, to. I remember one time going to the dentist and I had to get a cavity filled, which is, like, not that big of a deal for most people. But I remember my mom just, like, crying as she handed the lady her credit card. Cause $200 was gonna, like, break my family.

[Nava Kavilan]

Aww.

[Ashley Flowers]

And so, like, the single moms thing really came from, like, after I had my daughter, like, I didn't know how hard it was going to be. Like, people can try and prepare you. And I think for some women, it comes easier. For me, it's so freaking hard. And I just couldn't imagine doing it without, like, my entire village. Like, my husband and my mom and his mom. And, like, I wouldn't have survived. And I, like, all the time, I'm just like, I don't understand how anyone can do this alone. And so that's where kind of the Venmo thing comes in. Why single moms. Like, that really came after I had a daughter. But giving back was just like, I don't understand how to move through the world and not do that. And when it came to what we do for work, this whole thing got started because I felt like I needed to give back. So I was obsessed with this genre and these cases. But I got to this point in adulthood where I was like, I. And I'd always done volunteering, and I was kind of looking for my next thing. And I was like, you know, I feel like I need to give back in some way to this community that I'm always taking from. Like, I'm listening constantly for entertainment. I can't solve a case. I can't just turn around and be a detective today. What can I do to give back? Which led me to volunteering at Crime Stoppers, to being on their board of directors, to eventually, you know, long story short, starting the show. And so it was just like the DNA of why I made this. And it has been so much a part of. As we grow, the ways in which we're able to give and give back have too.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's really inspiring.

[Penn Badgley]

I started doing what I do now when I was 12. And I can at least I started to see the world as the performer that I am. So what you do isn't quite performance. What you do is. It's like, it has that in it. It has journalism in it. It has it's creation. Yes, it's creation. So I'm just curious, like, is there a link you can make and you don't have to force it? If not, is there a link that you can see between the way you saw the world then and the way you see it now and any seed of what you do now. Can you. You might not have been able to see it then, but can you see it now that it was actually on the horizon then?

[Ashley Flowers]

I could not see it then, but it's so easy. Like, it's, like, staring me in the face when I look back. So I've got, like, these horrendous. And maybe if I can find it, I'll give you a clip. But, like, the smallest clip, I've got these horrendous home movies that I used to make where I would, like, write a murder mystery and then make my family act it out. And I was literally even writing commercials into the movie because I knew you had to have an ad break and fund it somehow. Wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, my God. You're a producer, too?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And I like. I mean, I was directing music videos with my sister, and, I mean, from the earliest time I can remember. And what I think is so interesting is I would have, prior to starting Crime Junkie and starting the business, I would have never told you I was a creative person. And I think it's because I never. I was always, like, had to be so practical. And I think it was just also the way I grew up, and I was so striving for that, like, security and, like, financial security, job security. It just wasn't. I didn't have the room to dream, I don't think, or, like, dream big. My parents told me I was capable of anything. But, like, also don't be ridiculous and get a real job kind of thing.

[Penn Badgley]

Also stay in the cult.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Or stay in the cult. Yeah. Like, marry a pastor. And I. So it was. It was, like, there. And I've got all the home movies to prove it, but I don't know why I never let myself, like, actually fall into that. And when I look back at, like, the classes I did the best in, like, I. I could write a story that would have my freshman English teacher, like, weeping as she's grading it, but I'm, like, taking AP Physics for some reason, and, like, it's so hard for me but killing myself to do well at that. Because in my mind, like, math and science is, like, the only thing I should be doing, which is so strange. But it was. Yeah. It was there all along. And now that, like, I let myself, like, find an outlet for it. I'm like, I can't believe I ever tried to do anything else.

[Nava Kavilan]

At what point do you feel like you stopped fighting who you wanted to be versus who you felt like you should be.

[Ashley Flowers]

Once that thing, like, allowed me to pay the bills doing that thing. So even when I started the business and the podcast, I worked full time for the whole first year. And I only gave myself a year, um, because I knew how hard it was gonna be. I knew how much work I was gonna have to put in. And so I gave myself one year. And I said by the one year mark, if I can't quit my job and pay my bills, then I have to give this other thing up. And I mean, like, right at the one year mark, we were able to do that.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow. You continued working another job while you were doing it?

[Ashley Flowers]

While I was doing the podcast for the whole first year, yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. I would wake up at like, I would. I would work on the podcast from like 5am to like 7:30. I'd go to work from 8 to 5. I would come home and work till like 10 or 11pm and then I would do like 12 hours Saturday, 12 hours Sunday. It was brutal. It was a brutal first year.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's amazing.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's. That is incredible. I mean, it sounds like we are ready to transition to your kind of career, but we should ask you some classic questions because our listeners will want to. Want to hear these. So why don't we start with an embarrassing stories. Could be middle school, could be high school. But can you share like, a particularly awkward, embarrassing memory from adolescence?

[Ashley Flowers]

I mean, there's like a lot of like, little ones. And again from middle school, I think I was protected by being in the bubble. Like I couldn't do anything interesting to be embarrassing. And so it's not like I actually like love this about me. Other people are like, mortified. So my job in high school was I was the dancing pig on the side of the road, like our main strip, because no one else wanted to do it. So I was like Famous Dave's Barbecue. I was the pig in the suit who was like bustin a move on the corner. And like that's what everyone is there.

[Nava Kavilan]

Video footage of this. Cause we would love that.

[Ashley Flowers]

I literally was trying to pull it up. I think YouTube took it down because I was dancing to Lean like a Cholo. And I think it was a copyright violation.

[Sophie Ansari]

I forgot about that song.

[Ashley Flowers]

I did not. It's like now my daughter's favorite bedtime story. I tell her about how I started as a hostess and worked my way up to the pig and she's obsessed. I was just like, I was a goofy kid. I Mean, I was the one. We had a huge high school. I was the one who's like, I got stuck one time. I had my backpack, and there's the wall and this giant pole for some fucking reason. And it's so busy in our high school. And I was like, I'll just cut through. And I got stuck. And, like, a bunch of people had to, like, come. It was so fucking embarrassing. Had to come, like, pull me out, like, weasel me out of this, like, hole in the wall. It was terrible. But I.

[Nava Kavilan]

How did you get stuck?

[Ashley Flowers]

I think you were stuck. I truly was just, like, I was awkward and I was weird, and I didn't have, like. I didn't have a thing or a group, especially when I went to high school. Cause I. So at middle school, the church broke up, so everyone kind of, like, fled and went their separate ways. And so I went from being in a school where I had 13 people in my class to going to the public high school where I had, like, a thousand people in my class. Like, it was huge.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Ashley Flowers]

And everyone's known each other their whole lives. And so I didn't have a friend group. I ate lunch alone a ton. But no, I, like. I go there and I don't know anyone, and I'm just trying to, like, make my way through. And I always felt. I think it's why I tried so hard at, like, the, like, the science, whatever. Like, the. The straight and narrow path is. I never felt like I was great at anything. I felt like I was a little bit like a chameleon. And I think I could be good at, like. I could be decent good at, like, a lot of things, which, like, you know, made it easy to, like, fit in here and there. But, like, I was never. I never found my thing. I never found, you know, people had sports or people had music. I cannot hold a tune to save my life. And so I always thought I was just gonna be, like. I was just kind of average. And I think that's what, like. Like bummed me out more than anything is like, I. I had this, like, desire in me for this, like, really big life. And, like, I felt like. Like it was something that everybody wanted. And I wanted to change the world, and I wanted to. I just. That's just how I envisioned myself. And I think the older and older I got, I was like, oh, no. Like, I think that, like, you're just. This is. This is it, and that's okay. And. But it wasn't what I wanted. And I think that was hard to come to terms with for like a long time.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Penn Badgley]

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[David Duchovny]

If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor. And for the mill food Recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet Every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden, add to your compost feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you. But you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Ashley Flowers]

Hey, I'M Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code and Moms First. I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife, as I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck? Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

It seems like there were certain restrictions or there were certain aspects of your upbringing that were quite strict. I mean, I would think in any, in any extremely religious upbringing that's going to be there, right?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And then, but then there was this. If you could call it permission or, you know, you seem to have total freedom to explore. Call it criminality, call it investigation, call it murder, call it whatever, you know, there was no restriction here.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, there wasn't a ton of restriction. And I think it was because that was like, so based in reality. Like, there was no arguing with it. This was just the world. And these are the facts that even though it's like the worst of the worst things, it was okay to talk about. Whereas, like, they spent more time worrying about making sure I don't read Harry Potter. Cause that would be the end of the world. And yeah, I also heard no Furbies.

[Nava Kavilan]

Were allowed, which I thought was so funny.

[Ashley Flowers]

Oh my God, no. Yeah, Furbies were a no go. Cabbage Patch Babies were a no go. Cabbage Patch Babies.

[Nava Kavilan]

Why?

[Sophie Ansari]

Just cause they looked weird.

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know. Like, there's a lot that I even.

[Nava Kavilan]

Asked my bottom of the womb, I don't know.

[Ashley Flowers]

And she can't even explain it. And that's like the crazy part about like, again, I have no, I have nothing against religion. There's so many wonderful Christians. But like this version of it where it was just like, wait, we don't know why we hate something, we just hate it. And we're just like. And I'm like, that isn't like. I think it's okay to ask questions. But yeah, no Cabbage Patch Kids, no Furbies, no Harry Potter. We were more worried about witches and wizardry than murder.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, that's fair. So the reason I ask that is because I think a lot about true crime and true crime obsession. And I think that in its essence, what we're exploring in it is questions of human nature. You know, deep, deep questions of human nature. I think we're fascinated. So I guess I want to hear Now, I think we all want to hear about how as you grew this fascination and obsession, call it human nature, call it. Call it whatever, turned into something you could see as or build.

[Nava Kavilan]

And just for some of our listeners who don't know, like, the. The very few of you don't know, Ashley has one of the biggest podcasts in the world. She has a podcasting company. She gives back through her organization. Like, what Ashley has done is absolutely. Like, there's no. I think there's no comparable person probably in the world, in the world of true crime.

[Penn Badgley]

Certainly the idea that we do in some sense the same thing in podcasting is a joke.

[Nava Kavilan]

Like.

[Penn Badgley]

You. No, no, no, I'm serious. I'm serious.

[Ashley Flowers]

So, yeah, so we have a, like, so just overview. I've got a company called Audio Check.

[Penn Badgley]

And after your dog.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I was gonna say the name just came from. I was filling out my paperwork because, again, this was not going to be a hobby I had. I did all my LLC paperwork before I ever released a first episode.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I need. And I was like, okay. Like, I'm all about spending time on the things that matter. And in my mind, I was like, a name doesn't matter. Like, I'm doing audio. I love my dog Chuck. It's Audio Chuck. So there you go.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's a great name. Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

My origin story.

[Penn Badgley]

Something that we also share. Great names for a podcast.

[Ashley Flowers]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

Perfect Pod Crush. There's nothing cringy about that at all. Okay, sorry, Continue.

[Ashley Flowers]

So, yeah, we've got, like, we've got 20 shows, but our flagship show is Crime Junkie, where every week, Britt, who I mentioned my best friend, I get on and I tell her the crime story I've been obsessing over. And the format really, like, when I was thinking about how this was coming to be. So, like, the business of it came from. I was on the board of directors for Crime Stoppers. They really wanted me to do some brand awareness for them. Nobody my age knew what the program was. And so I originally started, I partnered with a local radio station here in Indianapolis and was like, hey, I'll come on every Monday morning. I'll tell a quick true crime story, and in exchange, you advertise for them. And it became their top rated segment. They became the top rated station in the city. And at some point I was like, okay. Like, I actually think I could do this on my own and have, like, more control and tell the stories longer. And I was.

[Penn Badgley]

Can I. Can I ask how long that segment was?

[Ashley Flowers]

It was like eight Minutes, eight minutes.

[Penn Badgley]

That's short.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was, like, in and out, and then with their ad breaks, and they're like sound effects, and, like, it was like. It was totally different.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay. And so I. I had become obsessed with podcasts before this. Like, I mean, I was consuming all the true crime ones, and I kept waiting for someone to make this. This specific show that I wanted to hear, where I wanted to hear two people. But I didn't want, like. I didn't want, like, side tangents. I didn't really want personal stories. Like, I've got ADD with the best of them, and I'm like, I just, like, give me the facts and give me the facts that, like, you can't half ass it. Like, as a crime junkie, I know the big cases, so don't come at me with, like, wrong facts or, like, stuff I don't know. Like, it's got to be deep. And so I got to this point where I was like, well, maybe I should just make the show I keep waiting for. With the idea being that, like, this is the crime JD experience. I'm going to, like, tell you everything there possibly is to find about this story in this one place in a really accessible way. I'm gonna. It was what I was already doing. I was already, like, researching and finding out everything and telling my best friend Britt. And so in my mind, I would just put a mic to that and let Brit be the listener, let her be the audience that's listening, and let me tell my best friend a story. Let the people who are listening feel like they're hanging out with us. And it just, like, it just took off. I mean, I think it's great content, but I think we were in the right place at the right time as well, as far as, like, when podcasting was taking off and gaining traction and true crime as a whole. I mean, I always feel like it's been a big genre, but I, you know, over the past decade, the way that that's grown as well, I think is kind of unbelievable.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

So, yeah, like, we just had this, like, spike in that first year.

[Sophie Ansari]

There's. I'm sure you've seen, like, the memes about how, like, women will, like, relax, like.

[Nava Kavilan]

Unwind.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. And I have my own ideas of why women in particular are drawn to the genre, but I'm curious for you, as the expert in the topic, what you think?

[Ashley Flowers]

I think there's a lot of things, and I, like, I have not studied this. I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I think Some of it is we are often the victims of these things. And so there is this, like, hyper vigilance of, how can I protect myself? What can I learn? How can I. I also think, like, you consume so much that you're like, surely it can't happen to me. Like, if I. I don't know. I don't know what the thinking is behind that. I also think that, like, many women have this, like, attention to detail. So many of the detectives I talk to are like, I can't tell you that. Some of the best detectives we have are women. And I think this, like, attention to detail and like, wanting to pick apart every. Every little minuscule part of a case and try and make sense of it, because that's what, like, our brains want to make sense of the world. And so much of true crime just doesn't make sense. And to pen, to go back what you were saying earlier, it's like, how does it happen? And who's capable of it? And is it everyone? Are we all capable of something if pushed to a certain point? And what makes one person capable and one person not? And why is that point different for all these people? It's. I think it appeals to more than just women, but I think that we, from a self preservation point of view, really pick at it.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I mean, it definitely appeals to. Well, you know, to me, the male version is seven David Fincher films. You know, it's like the male version is not that different, but it is.

[Ashley Flowers]

I call it Boy True Crime. Like, I can pick out Boy True Crime a mile away. It's heists, it's spies, it's like.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right. Yeah, but there is. I mean, I mean, to me, I think men have a focus on and a fascination with, you know, the serial killer as a modern mythological figure in a way. But it is different. But it is different. And I'm not exactly sure what that difference is right now. Do you think that. What do you have. Have you thought about this? Do you think there is?

[Ashley Flowers]

I haven't because everyone, Everyone always asks me about women.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm here to ask you about men.

[Ashley Flowers]

Men. Let's talk about men more.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, do you think men are. I think men are subject to more collective. This is not backed by data. This is just a speculative thought. Yeah, I think men are subject to more collective violence, like gang violence. They serve in the military at higher rates. But women, it's more like domestic violence. So it's more. Or like child abuse. So it's more like one on one, I guess. Boys probably Are subject to child abuse, too. But partner violence is more predominantly, like, male violence against women. But boys are more subject to collective violence, I think. So there's not, you know, like, war stories are really popular with men.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

So the kind. And gang stories are more popular with men. So what they're more subject to. They're more interested in what women are subject to. They're more interested in maybe.

[Ashley Flowers]

I love that. Very insightful.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

But I could be totally wrong.

[Sophie Ansari]

There was this sense I got when I was listening. I was listening to several episodes back to back, and I was just, like, my husband. Husband could hear me. I was in my headphones, and I just was in the kitchen being like, oh, my God, no. And I was just like, how did I not know about Charlotte Grabby? You know, like, how did I not know her story? That is. This is so tragic, like, what this man did to her. And I remember when I first became a mom, I had this feeling that is. You know, it's like, maybe there's two sides of the same coin of, like, there's so much that women go through that is just silent. It's just quiet. And no one talks about it, and no one. No one sees it. And I had this feeling, like, I just want someone to witness what's happening. Like, I want someone to, like, be sitting next to me or just, like, watching me breastfeed so that they know, like, what I'm actually putting into this. Like, what I'm. What is. What's going into to motherhood. Because it's kind of in the shadows, and I think it's something different. But, you know, in the same vein with, like, violence against women, and, I mean, I haven't listened to all of your episodes, and obviously, like, we've acknowledged men are victims of violence, too, but I do feel like it's, like, predominantly women, and it just feels, like, important that we know these people's names. I don't know.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, it's hard, like, when you're in so many stories. And I think the thing that I see the most, especially as we work with families now, is this idea that, like, when something like this happens, when a whole human just gets, like, snuffed off the face of the earth, a human who has those moments and who was breastfeeding their child and who did all these beautiful things and had a life just like ours, when it's just gone, that everything just moves on. I think that's, like. That was just one of the realizations I had that most families have the hardest time Dealing with like, how does everything for me just. And like the rest of the world is so unaffected and it happens at such an alarming rate that we are desensitized to it. And like, and even the way that like, we talk about true crime, I think like, desensitizes us often to the real person who got lost. The real like family behind all of that, which has been like such a big mission in our work, is how do you, you will never, I will never stop consuming this crime or this content. I don't expect anyone else to. Like, I understand wanting to consume it. So the question for me is always like, how can you, how can we find a way to create it better? How can we find a way to consume it better, more responsibly so that we're not continuing to cause more harm to the people who've already like, suffered the biggest loss?

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, well, I thought that was so interesting in the beginning of the missing half. Right away, like pretty much right away you talk about a true crime podcast in a self deprecating way from the perspective of the victim or the victim's family, how they might feel about like their family member's death being covered on, in the media and specifically on a podcast. And I thought that was interesting that you went there and given your career.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I wondered if you could elaborate on that.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. So, I mean, I don't talk about it very long, but it's one of those things that so much of the book, like, I love doing the books because it gives me a chance to play in the mystery world where the stakes are zero. Like the stakes feel so high when we're working in true crime because like of the people on the other end of this that we're working with, but the stakes are zero. But. And everyone wants me to write a book where like there is a podcast solving a case. Like, I have zero interest in doing that.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, I can't do this.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I was like, I'd rather just mock myself, but it's what I hear from family all the time. I mean, like, I, I. So much from the book is taken from my real life, from cases I've worked from, whatever. And I've seen like, it goes wrong so many ways where I've talked to families who have been burned by other things. I've like, so many people who like, I have to like, listen to people talk about my life like they know my life when they've never even talked to me. And I think that's such an interesting part of what they have to deal with. And it's like, right, like early on when I didn't have any resources, we were talking about people we never got to actually talk with. But like, literally from episode one, I got a reminder of that though, because episode one, I did a case on Nikki McCowan, who is this woman who went missing in Indiana. It was kind of a little known case. And I released my first episode and the next day I got an email from her daughter. Like, I mean, I'm nobody at this point with no following. And it was just that reminder that, like, I don't know if people forget or if they don't care or what it is, but a reminder that every word I'm gonna say I have to imagine is being heard by the people who were affected by the story. And so in little ways, like, that's the kind of stuff I wanted to incorporate into the book. It's like I don't have to, like, I'm not perfect. Our medium isn't perfect. But if you can point out the imperfections, I think that's how we all learn and get better.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we'll be right back.

[Ashley Flowers]

I'm Hasan Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren, Is America too dumb for democracy? Outrageous. Parenting expert Dr. Becky, how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath? It's a good question. Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts, are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative?

[Megan]

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in.

[Ashley Flowers]

The Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

[Megan]

My co host and happiness guinea pig.

[Ashley Flowers]

Is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.

[Ashley Flowers]

And producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[Megan]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's been really clear all throughout this that giving back is really important to you and you've started an organization called Season of Justice. Yeah, you went on the last year you were on the Kelly Clarkson show. I watched that interview and you actually gonna quote you back to you, which I know some people hate. So I apologize. I think you said at that time, I think you guys had already solved, helped Solve nine cold cases, including two murders. And maybe you can share sort of the updated stats with us. But in response to sort of Kelly's reaction to that, you said, I think the whole world would be a better place if we stopped acting like we're strangers. We're not. And I just loved that notion, which I think sort of speaks to this idea that we're all fundamentally one. And at the beginning, you talked about growing up at this environment of like a very us versus them. And. Yeah, I'm just curious how you came to this place of really so truly believing in the oneness of humanity and the philosophy underpinning Season of Justice. And if you can tell us about the great work that you're doing with that organization.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I don't know when it happened, but I. So when I graduated high school, I knew I was gonna have to pay for my own college and all my friends were going to these two state schools and I was just like, I wanted something different. I just had something in me that I was like, I need to meet new people. I need to see something different. So I went to Arizona and I got a full time job working in a hospital. I put myself through school at night. And I think it was just like getting away and meeting new people. And I think that. So I believe that hate is rooted in fear or greed, but a lot of fear. If you don't know and you don't, you're just afraid of what you don't know. And I feel like there's so much growing opportunities in meeting people who had a different walk of life. And I just like every time I've had that experience and I watched so many people like, again, we grew up in this culty church, but I have watched so many of them the same way I have come out of it and I'm in a different place. I've seen them grow up too, where they realized that what they believed wasn't right. And to me, it sucks that you have to have something happen to you to understand it or someone you know, to like to have understanding and compassion and love. But I watched it happen over and over. Where these things they said they were so against or hated or whatever. As soon as they could relate to it, they like things change. And I'm so grateful that people are willing to change because I think the second you write someone off because of and don't give them the chance to, that's not fair either.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

But I think it like, I don't know, I just have this sense that like when like every time I've gone to meet someone, like, humans are so complex and there's such a. Maybe it's the storyteller in me. There's such a story behind every single person that I don't understand how people don't think we're connected. Like, I like not to be like, too Kumbaya, but, like, I mean, we're all like, sharing this planet and I like the stuff that's going on in the world. Even I just, like, I meet so many wonderful people and so many, like, lovely people who. We all have like, a very similar story. And I don't know what it is we're. We're fighting over or fighting for. And it's furbies, furbies, furbies. So it's just, it's like, it's maddening. Right? And as far as the nonprofit, I mean, that really came from a need. Like, I like to get in and figure out what it is that people need without just like, you know, waving a hand or throwing money at something. When I was working these cases over and over with law enforcement, I can't tell you how many times I got into one. And what they said was, oh, yeah, we've got like suspect DNA. Like this thing could be solved, except there is no fund for this. We just don't have the money. And like that it was baffling to me. Like, it can't be $5,000 that's standing between this murder getting solved or not. And they didn't want to take money directly from a media company. So I set up the nonprofit for that reason specifically. Especially with all, like the new genetic genealogy testing that could be done. Like, they didn't have the budget for regular DNA testing. Science moves so much faster than law. And offering this nonprofit that provided those grants. I worked with a former detective too, even just to set up the grant making process because so many detectives are just like intimidated by it. So we made it as quick, as simple as possible just to get money in their hands. And I'll have to give you guys the updated numbers. It's been like, it's been a lot more since the Kelly Clarkson show. But yeah, it's gone on to fund, I mean, 10, like a few hundred cases if not more. We've had, I think last time I heard like 16 solves.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Ashley Flowers]

So it's more than doubled. Yeah. Jane and John Doe's identified. I know you say. Yeah, and that's just a nonprofit. Like, we've also been able to do a ton at Audio Chuck. We do A lot of stuff in the true crime space and then a lot of stuff with our community in Indianapolis. So we've like done an endowment for a domestic violence shelter here. We've funded a mobile medical clinic, did some resources for the homeless shelter. So like a lot trying to like build up our community because part of the mission I have as well, we've got this whole true crime thing. But I've become really passionate about building this media company in the Midwest. Like it's. I want to make a really amazing place for people to come and work and work in media and without having to go to a coast that a lot of people can't afford to live in. And yeah, I also. Indiana is like, I think this goes back to like my upbringing. Like Indiana has very different beliefs than I do personally as a state and our laws and stuff. And I want to, I believe that if everyone who believes differently just leaves, nothing changes. And so I want to create a safe place where, because so many people who, whether they're gay, trans, whatever it is, like you can't, you can't just like leave often times. And I want to create a safe place for people to come to work and be themselves and live their best life here.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's amazing.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, we did it. We solved it. I think what we'll do, we will move to our final question. If you could go Back to the 12 year old Ashley, what would you say or do?

[Ashley Flowers]

I. I had this like cheesy quote on like a wooden box that I bought from like what is essentially a charlotte russe when I was 16 that I hung in every house I've had. And I think I, I wish I would have known it sooner. And it just says that not to spoil the ending, but it's gonna be okay. And it's like, it's so cheesy and it's so simple. But it's like really been my philosophy for everything like since I found that. It's like it's nothing's gonna end and it like you like it's gonna be okay. I wish I would have known that sooner like as and as a kid when everything feels so big and world ending and altering. Like all your feelings when you're young are. What I should have done is brought my, my journal on the show. All the feelings feel so big and it does feel like your world is ending for like stuff as an adult you think is simple and it's, it's not to like. I think that what I loved about it, it wasn't dismissive of the feelings. It wasn't just, like, saying that they're not valid or that they're not real or, like, you're not feeling that. But at the end, like, if you make the right decisions, like, you're moving in the right directions, like, it's. It's gonna. You're gonna be fine, kid. You're gonna be fine. Sweet.

[Sophie Ansari]

I love that you had that on a. You have that wooden box that you've put up in your house. All your houses. That's really sweet.

[Penn Badgley]

And you said you got it when you were 16. Is that what you said?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I got it at the UP Mall in Mishawaka, Indiana. So I hadn't been at, like, a kitschy store, like I. Or something.

[Penn Badgley]

So you were pretty close to 12 when you already understood that. I mean.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I've been a very mature person, I think, most of my life. I just recently did one of those astrological past lives, psychic things.

[Penn Badgley]

Past life regressions? Yes. Kendrick.

[Ashley Flowers]

I didn't. Well, it wasn't a regression. He just told me about my past life, and. And I think I carried a lot of that with me. So I came in pretty mature and pretty angry, so.

[David Duchovny]

Oh.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, this has been a delight. It's been so nice chatting with you.

[Nava Kavilan]

Thank you, Ashley.

[Ashley Flowers]

Thank you, guys. It was lovely. It was so good to meet all of you.

[Nava Kavilan]

It was so nice to meet you.

[Sophie Ansari]

You can get the missing half wherever you get your books. And you can follow Ashley Flowers online at ashleyflowers. Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and. And our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at La Monada. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.

[Ashley Flowers]

You know what?

[Sophie Ansari]

I can't stop saying sorry. I know. I'm assuming this is all going to be cut. Is the line from the finale of White Lotus.

[Nava Kavilan]

Coconut melts off.

[Sophie Ansari]

Coconut milk expired.

[Penn Badgley]

Is that a spoiler?

[Nava Kavilan]

Kind of. You know, this one is much more obvious, but I keep saying piper, no. In my living room, just all the time. Buddhism. Buddhism.

[Sophie Ansari]

You want to move to Taiwan?

[Ashley Flowers]

What?

[Megan]

Hi, I'm Megan, and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'M building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa Alexa, play Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan on Amazon Music. And she will.

[Ashley Flowers]

Why, hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God. I'm so br. Hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like, and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week, listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life. Anything. Their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead. Search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Bye.