Phoebe Robinson (3:27)

Lemonada New York, New York, New York.

Nava (3:42)

Hello. Hello.

Phoebe Robinson (3:43)

Oh, my gosh. Thank you, sir, for standing up in the front and wearing that tight white T shirt. I'm here for it all. Thank you. How's everyone doing tonight?

Pen Badger (3:55)

Good.

Phoebe Robinson (3:58)

Everyone survived the trains to get here? Yes. I am so excited to be here. This is. I'm Phoebe, by the way. Hi. Thank you for saying that.

Pen Badger (4:11)

Yeah.

Nava (4:11)

Give it up for Phoebe Robinson, everybody.

Phoebe Robinson (4:16)

Thanks, Phoebe Pen, or Penjamin as I like to call you. I am a voracious reader. I love to write books. I've written three books. And I like to interview people a lot. And interviewing people who write books is like my favorite sort of Venn diagram thing because I really get to nerd out. And I met you guys 2022.

Pen Badger (4:40)

I think so.

Nava (4:41)

Sounds like it. Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (4:42)

2022, I went on their beloved podcast, Pot Crush. Oh, hold up.

Nava (4:54)

Looked over and saw that. I saw that. And I went, oh, okay. All right, all right. I don't know where that was printed.

Phoebe Robinson (5:05)

We love a good fit anyway, but I. I just fell in love with you guys. Your chemistry just. Just felt so real. And there's so many times when you do a podcast or something that's hosted by more than one person, there's clearly one person trying to dominate and take all the light, and you're like, relax.

Nava (5:22)

What are you saying?

Phoebe Robinson (5:25)

I won't name names. But what I felt was just such, like, warmth and tenderness. You guys really like each other, and you're equally funny and you have all these different qualities that together just makes the fucking magic. And so when I was reached out to. To moderate Crush More, which is out today. Get it at Barnes and Noble, get it at indie bookstores if you want to get it at Amazon. We won't love it, but we will accept it.

Nava (5:59)

You can order it direct from the publisher.

Podcast Host (6:00)

Yes.

Nava (6:01)

Simon and Schuster. We want this support.

Phoebe Robinson (6:03)

Small Business. A bestseller. And when I immediately was like, yes, I'm happy to moderate. And then I read the book, and I just was like, it's so sweet and tender, and the way your stories weave in together is just delightful. And I think all of us have had growing up in middle school years in particular, where you're just like, I don't know if I like myself. And it's just really. To me, I was like, oh, I wish this book existed when I was, like, 13, you know? And I think that's just high praise for a book like this. So I'm very excited to be sitting down with the three of you to. To talk about how this came to be and other juicy stories. And then we have audience questions that you guys wrote down that I have in my butt, and I'm gonna pull out my pocket. I'm just trying to warm you guys up. You guys seem a little tight, and it's okay. I understand. I know. I know I'm not Oprah. I know I'm not Reese Witherspoon, but I matter. Okay. Okay. So one of the things that I really love about this book is the way you guys weave your stories together. And this, for each of you is your first time writing a book.

Ad Voice (7:23)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (7:23)

And I was very much like, how did they figure out how to do this so well? So can you sort of walk me through? Did you guys pitch this as a book? What your approach as a book to do this, and then how the writing process for three authors into one book, baby.

Nava (7:41)

Well, I think transparency is always the most interesting. So the truth is, we were approached by. We were approached by, like, a book agent who was initially, like, doing what? What. What within the. The world of agents is like, you do not do this because, you know, I'm repped by caa. And they. And. And. And they're like, no, we represent you in all domains. Somebody approached you to write a fucking book. We do that for you. And. And then. Because at that point, I'd never even spoken to the literary side of things. I'm an actor. You know, I have no brain and. Or thoughts, but I have a lot of feelings. And so, yeah, so then they hooked us up with our agent there, who we love, by the way. And then they were like, all right, so let's let us, like, actually do this the right way. Let's go out to the world of publishers. Let's have you write a sort of temp book. And so to be honest, I think back to that first temp thing that we did. I don't know how you guys feel. Mine was rough. Mine was real, real, real rough. And I can't believe we even got a publisher, frankly.

Phoebe Robinson (8:52)

Why are you such a bad writer? No, just kidding.

Nava (8:55)

Because I said, because I have no brain and no thoughts, but only feelings. And so it was just like I was insecure for reasons I can't identify. And I'm just writing on giant paper and folding it up and mailing it. Which was the problem. No, basically, like, I mean, I think it. I. I think it was. For me, it was the beginning. And I think this might be true for all of us writing. The thing that would go out to even say to, you know, a smattering publisher is, hey, this is something. What the book would be like, that was the beginning of this. That the. The point of this possibly being an interesting answer. Oh, my God. Is. Is. Is. It was the beginning of something that we couldn't have anticipated. I know. I didn't. I was like, okay, let's try, right?

Sophie (9:43)

Yeah. And I think the question on all of our minds was, like, how do we take our three childhoods or middle school, coming of age eras and weave them together because they're so different, each one of us. And I think we managed to do it because we took some themes that we felt were universal. Love, loss, family, friendship. And, you know, Nava has had a really major loss in her life. I haven't. And so I had to figure out, like, well, what does loss mean for me? What have I lost in this life? And it was an essay that looked completely different. So we all had, like, very different entry points. But we took these themes that were universal, and I think that's what helped us make it somewhat cohesive.

Nava (10:30)

We started out thinking it would be six specific themes, and then we realized as we started, like, maybe we'll stick to. For universally across the board. Like, maybe three of them. And one of them was. Was loss slash grief. You know, that's a potent thread. And. And it's one that we always, you know, for all of the levity in our podcast, we, you know, we. We also like to have conversations that go as deep as we can. You know, we do like to talk about death a lot. That's one of those things that, I mean, I think it's less and less taboo, but you have to do it the right way, you know.

Phoebe Robinson (11:08)

Naba, I.

Pen Badger (11:09)

Feel like they said it All.

Phoebe Robinson (11:11)

Okay, well, I was. I want to hear from you.

Podcast Host (11:14)

Come on, Phoebe.

Phoebe Robinson (11:15)

Next question. No, as you were. I just want to say. Has it. Who has started reading the book already?

Nava (11:23)

One person. Awesome.

Phoebe Robinson (11:26)

I can see a couple hands. No, it's okay.

Nava (11:30)

Why aren't you reading in the dark right now?

Phoebe Robinson (11:33)

You don't need to pay attention to what's going on up here. Just open your books and then there'll be an exam afterwards. No, but what struck me, first of all, I just want to say Diego. Yeah, him forever. I know. Here's the thing he said. He says a thing that I don't want to spoil unless you want to talk about it. But I think that moment for me is just where I feel like every girl has gone through that moment of, like, okay, I like this person, and I think that they're either going to, like, reveal their feelings or say something, like, super nice to me, and they say something that just sort of, like, sticks to you for, like, long after they say it and just go, do, do, do, do all with their life. Yeah. And so I think you captured that moment perfectly. And so I'm sort of wondering, what is it like to go back in time and sort of be like, oh, this really shitty thing happened that kind of, like, affected me even longer than I thought it did.

Pen Badger (12:37)

That's such an interesting question, because Diego is still a really good friend of.

Phoebe Robinson (12:42)

Mine and okay, un. Fuck him forever.

Pen Badger (12:46)

But I. One of the themes in the book, if you read it, is that I struggle with avoidance, which some people who work with me are like, no, you don't. But in professional context, maybe not. But in, like, personal relationships, I do. And in, like, anything remotely romantic, I extremely do. And so I've, like. There's, like, a lot of things that are in the book that I've, like, to this day, never had a conversation with him about. So he, like, doesn't know that he, like, made an offhand comment. I feel like I want to spoil it, but it's hard to say this without spoiling it. But anyway, he made an offhand. Offhand comment about a body part, but not the one that you would think, not a traditional one. And it, like, haunted me forever.

Phoebe Robinson (13:23)

Just the untraditional body part.

Pen Badger (13:27)

And it gave me a complex about a body part that I never thought about. And for the rest of my life, I think about it and.

Podcast Host (13:33)

And.

Pen Badger (13:33)

But I was actually reflecting with my sister about it. I just told her, like, three. She was like, have you called him and told him what's in this book?

Phoebe Robinson (13:40)

And I was like, no.

Pen Badger (13:40)

I, like, sent him a text. And I was like, hey, I don't think you should read this book. I don't think you're gonna like it. And he right away went and bought it on Kindle. Like, I'm definitely reading this book. And anyway, this answer is too long winded, but basically, my sister and I, so we started reflecting about the things in the essay, and I. And that comment, and we were like, I wonder how many people we've done that to. Like, I wonder how many, like, throwaway comments. Like, a thing that I don't remember that I said to someone is, like, haunting them right now. Like, probably we've all done that to someone. So I don't hold it against him that he said it, but I think there's a line in the book where I say, basically, like, I wish I wouldn't have taken it so seriously because I know he wasn't trying to cut me down or not.

Podcast Host (14:16)

He.

Pen Badger (14:16)

That boy doesn't have a mean bone in his body, but he wasn't trying to date me. And that's what I should have taken from that moment. Like, yeah, that's not a boy that's trying to woo you.

Phoebe Robinson (14:25)

Great job processing that and being reflective and be like, I've probably done it too. Okay. Accountability. That's so great.

Nava (14:33)

That's what it sounds like to really unfuck somebody.

Phoebe Robinson (14:35)

Yeah, exactly. But I think that's a question for all three of you. Like, I know with my books, I kind of just write whatever, and I don't give anyone any warning because I don't feel like I say anything that they need to be warned about. So, Mike, if they take offense, whatever, but did any of you at any point have a moment where you're like, oh, I don't know if I should write this. Maybe I should give a heads up or maybe I should just cut it completely.

Pen Badger (15:00)

I haven't answered that, but I feel like I just spoke a lot, so maybe you guys go, and then I'll go back.

Podcast Host (15:04)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (15:07)

Yeah.

Sophie (15:08)

I also struggle with avoidance, and I did not actually. I did reach out to one person who is named first and last real name in the book. That's the one person I named that way. I know. And I. I did reach out to him. After talking with Nava and trying to weasel my way out of it, I was like, is there a way where I don't have to reach out to him?

Podcast Host (15:31)

Should.

Phoebe Robinson (15:32)

I think you should.

Nava (15:32)

And.

Sophie (15:33)

And I wrote him a note, and I found out he doesn't have Facebook anymore.

Phoebe Robinson (15:37)

So he's never going to see it.

Sophie (15:39)

So, yeah, I really didn't reach out to anyone. I was like, you know what? We're going to let people read it and see how they feel. So I am actually very nervous. I'll just leave it at that. If you know me, don't read the book.

Nava (15:55)

I. So I don't think this spoils it. No, it doesn't spoil it. My essay on grief, you know, we sort of had this, like, theme that was uniting some of our essays. Grief or loss. Mine. Mine was about my first girlfriend from 14 to 19. We were together for, you know, those extremely formative years and the first week of recording for podcast. She died from the effects of. Of alcoholism. 20. 20 years of alcoholism. 32 years old, is young to die from drinking. That's like serious tragedy. You know, that's like. That's like, hard to do. That's. And, you know, that essay is about. In some ways, it's like, that was about, like, a living loss where her death actually was not the beginning of a process of grief. I'm not sure that it was the end of it, but it was not the beginning. And I reached out to the only friend I thought might know something that I didn't, who maintained a relationship with her, like, into the years of adulthood where, like, it was too painful to be close. So. And we texted a lot. We never had the conversation because I just felt in the end I was gonna ask for her to co sign something. She can't co sign. She's not her. She's not. And so I felt like the responsibility. It's interesting when you have. When you feel the responsibility to somebody who's passed on, you know, that's different from my perspective, there's some kind of relationship still existing. And so I was a little bit like, well, you know, what's going on here? So I'm trying to honor you, you know, and. And trying to be honest, but that. That was really tough. There were things I. I mean, you know, it's funny, Nava and Sophie have said, like, it seems like such a revealing essay. I'm like, I left out a lot. I really did.

Sophie (18:02)

Well, I feel like having read it, you really do honor her.

Nava (18:06)

I think that's kind.

Sophie (18:07)

From everything you've said, it sounds like she'd gone through a lot of tragedy. But the way you wrote it was, I really loved her.

Nava (18:13)

Yeah. You know, there's a. There's a. There's a few people I mentioned in that essay to give a To give us sort of a sense of sometimes how the casual nature of what the kind of. I mean, we live in an era now where people. People are so quick to. To call masculinity toxic. And. And I'm right there with you. Except for the fact that I wonder if that phrase doesn't help us anymore, because the men who need to learn from it are just like, oh, shut up. You know? So I spend some time, that essay trying to delicately address how in all of us as young boys, there was this sort of, like, seeds planted, and if they grew in the wrong way, we could have become those kind of men. So I felt some of those boys who I don't know as men, and I'm actually not assuming the worst at all. Like, I actually feel like they are good people and grew up to be good. I kind of was. There was a version I wrote that was more cutting of them. And then I thought, you know, some of them might read this. And, like, I don't know, like, we were 14. And they didn't really. They didn't do. To be clear, it's not like they did anything. It was just. It was like, yeah. So, you know, I thought about reaching out to people then, and I just thought, like, I don't know, I'm being as reserved as I think I can be without it. Without just not even dressing it.

Sophie (19:40)

I actually found some of the opposite issue. Like, I found it was hard for me to toe the line specifically when talking about my family. I feel this all the time. I love them so much, and they can be sensitive, as most people are, to like anything I say about them specifically on the podcast, they'll bring it up. If I say something that I think is totally innocuous, they'll be like, you bashed me on the podcast.

Phoebe Robinson (20:04)

I'm like, what?

Sophie (20:05)

So I feel like I was very careful with my family, and it was hard to, like, shed some of that.

Pen Badger (20:14)

So I changed names. I tried to be respectful about how I wrote about people, particularly because I know that memories get corrupted over time. I changed names, except for there's the essay about my mom's death. I didn't change names, but everyone who was part of that experience, I don't think cares because I barely, like, mention them. But there's an essay called the Middle that Friend. I left her name Ariana. And I sent it to her and she approved it. And then there's an essay called Loss about a friend of mine who was my best friend in middle school who died, and I didn't change his name because I wanted it to be a tribute to him. But he died really tragically and I didn't want to give the details of his death because I didn't want people to feast on that, like, on that detail and, like, remember this, like, young boy's life in a really macabre way. But I did reach out to his parents because there were, like, a few details that I included that I wasn't sure they'd be okay with, and I couldn't get a hold of them. Like, I reached out to my entire class to see if, like, anybody had his parents information, and no one did. And so I was, like, very torn about whether or not to include that essay. But in the end, I did. And I hope. I hope I have his parents blessing, but we'll find out.

Phoebe Robinson (21:21)

One of the things that I. I have a question about, not only in this amazing book, but also your podcast is you guys do share so much about your life, which I think resonates so well with your audiences, and they get to feel like they know you, but do you ever struggle with, like, I wish I could just be, like, a little more private. I mean, like, just being so open is a part of what this whole thing about, but.

Nava (21:47)

And what is this whole thing, really? What? What? Yeah, Yeah, I know. I know what you mean. Don't you feel the same way? You don't feel like you are not private?

Phoebe Robinson (21:54)

I feel like I'm private enough. Like, I feel like no one's like, I'm not. I'm not you, Benjamin. I'm not, you know, a television sensation, so. But I. But in all jokes aside, I do really feel like that, sort of. You want to share and you want to be open, but you also want to keep some things for yourself. And especially in this world where it's so easy for people to have para social relationships with you. Like, how do you just establish boundaries for yourself so that you can still feel like you're you?

Pen Badger (22:28)

Yeah, I feel like people are chomping at the bit to learn about Penn. I don't feel like people are that desperate to learn about us. I feel like people are like, say less.

Phoebe Robinson (22:35)

No, that's not. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What we're not gonna do Queen. Okay, she's standing up. What we're not gonna do is that we are all powerful. We are all equal. We are all magical. We are all important.

Nava (22:50)

Well, I think maybe there might be a reframing where I have a history of, like, my relationship to that question is Different. Whereas you, you, you know, kind of like are starting in the outset here. You know, it's like we all come to the podcast and we're equals in the podcast, and then we have this different kind of history behind us. You sort of have the last, what, four years of being in this space of like, choosing how to share when both of you, like, you're choosing those boundaries. And actually, to be honest, so what I see with them, I see people who are coming from, at the very least, healthy family systems where, like, they, like they. Something beautiful in this book that you don't get a lot of, like, in stories reporting from adolescents, from the field, from the battlefield. Like, love and honor and respect for parents that's earned. And it's like, it's a really lovely thing. So you guys, do you. You come to the table of like, trying to think about boundaries, about what you do and don't share. I think very thoughtfully and intuitively and probably sometimes wonder why I have a different way of approaching it. Maybe you don't wonder, but I maybe do have a different way of approaching it because I think about it from a place of exploitation. Possibly my relationship to it is different because I've been doing it since I was inappropriately young. So maybe that's the framing of it where it's. People might be attracted to an aspect of like, celebrity story, but you guys are being, you know, your vulnerability, it's like it. I don't know, it kind of has a power to it because it's like you don't have the same relationship to that.

Sophie (24:45)

One of the things, there's an essay I wrote called I Love Love, and I trace, like, a few relationships I was in. And mostly I start with just like, you know, the younger ones, and it's kind of innocent. And then I, in order to contextualize how I met my husband, I get into the relationship I was in before him, and that was way more serious. And I had to really figure out.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (25:09)

How much do I want to share.

Sophie (25:11)

And because I come from a pretty small, tight knit Baha' I community, I felt like I had to be very careful. Everybody knows everybody. Whatever details I give might tip someone off to who this is or what happened. And I felt like because of that, I had to be very careful. And part of me is resentful of that. Like, I just want to be able to share. I just want to be able to tell my story. Why do I have to be so stressed out about this person finding out? And this person's my friend, but they're also connected to him and. But then I also think like, that's also a little bit that's good to have those like guardrails in place. Like maybe it's good to have those things in the back of my mind where I'm like worried about how someone might receive it if they can figure out who it is. Because I don't think we should be toying with other people's stories so much. So yeah, it's a delicate balance.

Phoebe Robinson (26:05)

What about you, Queen?

Pen Badger (26:08)

Can you remind me the question sort.

Phoebe Robinson (26:11)

Of like how the. The balance of sheer, like the private. Yeah, private versus sharing. Yeah.

Pen Badger (26:17)

I feel like as a person I'm so open. I. My inclination would be like, I wish I could share everything but. But sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's like it's other people's stories or it can like you're like mad at someone and then your feelings about the situation change and they're like, oh, I wish I wouldn't have said it so aggressively. So those are like my guardrails and sometimes I cross them and then when I do I feel bad. But yeah, if it were just like up to me in my like natural state, I would share everything. I'm like in like my friendships with people. I'm such an open book. I'm like sharing and I'm like, let's talk and like, here's what happened and like tell you every detail. That's the kind of person I am.

Phoebe Robinson (26:57)

Yeah, I love that. And also I love your hair. Just want to thank you. It's so cute. It's just like a nice little, you know, loose little beach way vibe. I'm here for it. I love the fantasy. I'm here for it. As someone who is in their 40s and 41, I. Thanks. Just one person. Right on. The reason I bring that up is because I feel like, you know, when you're growing up and you're coming of age, so much of your brain can just get occupied by like dating and that just becomes like the main thing. And so, you know, for me, I was like very boy crazy for a long time. And then sort of in my late 30s, I kind of was like, I'm going to decentralmen a little bit and really re evaluate my friendships and really prioritize those. And I feel like the three of you have such a great friendship and great bond. And I'm wondering like, did you guys also have that journey of sort of like it's all about romance or it's all about this, all about that. And you realize, no, like, the community that I'm building with friends is that might be one of the greatest love stories of my life, even though that's not how we're taught to look at our adult friendships.

Sophie (28:13)

Yeah. I wrote an essay about friendship, friends, friendship and my journey with it. And I feel like, yeah, I've definitely gone through the same journey that you're talking about where I really focused on my marriage in the early years and kind of like shacked up and stopped hanging out with my friends in the same way and stopped reaching out to them and felt the effects of it. Like, you reap what you sow.

Phoebe Robinson (28:44)

And.

Sophie (28:44)

Then have come back around to really investing in those friendships. And I think one of the things that hit me after writing this book is like, we are very good about creating good systems for communication and checking in with our romantic partners, but not with our friendships necessarily. Like, there's a friendship that's really, really important to me that I probably would have lost if I hadn't checked in and been like, how do you feel this is going? But I don't think that's so normal. And it can be a little bit hard to do because it's so. It can be awkward, but I think it's important. That's what I've realized is this process.

Nava (29:27)

Yeah. What's being said resonates with me, I think for me, I mean, look, I have newborn twins right now.

Sophie (29:40)

Friends are nothing.

Nava (29:42)

There's no need to applause, there's no need to applaud. But so I think, yeah, like, maybe some. Some other part of the spectrum of that is like rather the romantic love. It's the. It's familial love. And I. I do come from a pretty, you know, broken down, isolated family unit, only child and stuff. It's all in the book. Too long. Don't read. Spencer. I didn't even say tldr. I said too long. Don't read.

Phoebe Robinson (30:13)

That was very sweet of you. That was so cute. I was like, oh, that's like a little boomer moment that popped in your brain. You know what I mean?

Nava (30:21)

Yes, yes. So. So, yeah, I don't. I don't have enough. You know, I'm still in some ways feel like such a young father. I don't have enough perspective on it to like, espouse any kind of wisdom. But. But there's something that I'm building there that's different from the kind of love you were just describing. And it's not the kind of love that you see. You See, represented in really, like, I don't know, rudimentary, archetypal ways. Like the Father in seventh heaven or something pops into my mind. Like, I don't even know. Yeah, I don't even remember, really anything about him. No.

Phoebe Robinson (30:55)

Okay. All right.

Nava (30:56)

Fair.

Phoebe Robinson (30:56)

It's okay. We'll. We'll survive the example.

Nava (30:59)

So. So, you know, and I just.

Phoebe Robinson (31:03)

And I think, like, I can hear it all.

Nava (31:08)

There's something there. There's something there. That's definitely not what I've seen. So I'm having to, like, kind of learn it for the first time.

Pen Badger (31:15)

Yeah, that's a great question, Phoebe. We're the same age, and I feel like in my late 30s.

Phoebe Robinson (31:25)

Let her find it. Let her find it. It's okay. It's okay.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (31:31)

Yes.

Sophie (31:31)

I feel.

Pen Badger (31:32)

I think in my late 30s I started to be like, no. Like, no relationships. Closing the door and prioritizing other things. And now I'm sort of like, maybe let's not, like, kick the idea of relationships completely curve. Like, it might be nice to have.

Nava (31:48)

That, but unfuck everybody.

Pen Badger (31:50)

Yeah, exactly. Let's, like, be receptive, but. But, like, certainly not make it, like, the central, like, pivot of my life. And. And, like, certainly not like the. What's that thing? The metric. I'm thinking of a different word, but can't think of it out loud.

Nava (32:07)

Pendulum.

Pen Badger (32:07)

But the thing that sort of determines whether or not my life has value. And actually, no, none of those are. I'm going to be thinking about this. None of those are.

Ad Voice (32:15)

Right.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (32:15)

The bar.

Nava (32:16)

The bar. The bar. No, setting the bar.

Pen Badger (32:19)

The process of writing the book was really helpful in. In helping me realize that I was, like. Not for some. For a long period of time, I was not allowing myself to enjoy any of my successes or any of the parts of my life that actually were making me happy. Because I was like, but you're a failure. Like, no matter what was going on, I was like, you're a failure because you had this one goal that you never achieved. So you're not allowed to be happy. It was like a subconscious thing, but it was like, very. Like a. Like a heavy. Like a heavy metal undercurrent in my life. And actually was in the process of.

Phoebe Robinson (32:51)

Writing of the book.

Pen Badger (32:51)

I was. There's an essay that didn't make it into the book because I was like, my editor's gonna tell me it's too much of a downer. I've already gotten that note a lot from her. So I'm not even gonna submit this essay. But I Had an essay that was a letter to my 17 year old self. And it was basically like I had been driving home and I had to pull. I was thinking about that essay, like, what am I gonna add to this essay today? And I had to pull over on the shoulder of the freeway. Cause I started crying so hard because I was thinking like, what I'm gonna write is like, you failed anyway.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (33:17)

Aw, no.

Pen Badger (33:18)

And then I was like, okay, well why am I feeling this way? And like, what did I fail at? And so I started like, I'm like.

Podcast Host (33:23)

Okay, just say it.

Pen Badger (33:24)

Like, you know, say the thing that you think you failed at. So I like said it out loud and it was like, you never got married, you never had kids, never gonna do it. And I like allowed myself to feel that. And then I came home and I like, you know, wrote it out and it was like such a downer of an essay.

Sophie (33:38)

But it was so good. I read a draft of it and really, I think it was in your folder.

Pen Badger (33:43)

And I read.

Phoebe Robinson (33:46)

Was so good. It was so good.

Pen Badger (33:48)

But I came around. I was like, well, that cannot be the where the essay ends. Because at some point I really did think I was going to submit this to my editor. And I was like, she's going to. It has to be upbeat. So then I was like, okay, well, if this isn't what gives your life meaning, like, what does give your life meaning? But I didn't mean it. I was just like, well, I just have to submit this to Molly. So what does give my life meaning if not this thing? But then that actually helped me to be like, why the hell am I determining that? Like, this thing is what gives my life meaning? Like, that's crazy. Like, I have this beautiful life. I have these beautiful people. I have this incredible father. And it really, like, helped me let go of that thing as like, this.

Podcast Host (34:20)

It's like it's allowed to be a.

Pen Badger (34:21)

Part of the picture. I'm allowed to be sad that those things haven't happened. But it cannot be the single determining factor of whether or not I'm a successful person, a happy person, a valuable person. And it was really in the process of writing this book that I had realized that I had always been like, you're not allowed to be happy because you didn't succeed.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (34:37)

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Podcast Host (36:23)

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Phoebe Robinson (39:34)

All and shout out Molly yeah, honestly.

Pen Badger (39:39)

For making me think about this.

Phoebe Robinson (39:41)

The upside, we, we love a vulnerable moment. And I want to say I feel.

Sophie (39:45)

I'm like are we in the same therapy session?

Phoebe Robinson (39:50)

There is a, there is like a love bubble when you have kids. I'm I much prefer being an auntie. Like that is where I crush it as an auntie. Oh my God, it's just Starbucks and Sephora. It's like that's all. It is so easy. It's so easy. They got a starbies and they're like in it. But I do think, you know, everyone, you especially, I feel like, wait, I hit 40. I don't know if it's true for you or other people, but it's like you kind of take stock because you're like, okay, I've had this movie playing in my head of like these markers happening at these certain like moments in my life and check done, check done, check done. And then like you realize at 40, it's like life is not about check done. Like, it's just not. That's sort of like an arbitrary pressure that we've been forced to put on ourselves because society and I had like the same conversation with my therapist and she was very much like, she was like, I know you want your soulmate. Your parents have had like a 45 year marriage and like that's like your dream. And she goes, but if that doesn't happen for you, is your life not going to be worth living? And I was just like, well, no, like. And she's like, that's your answer. Like there's all these amazing things and I think it's easy to let one thing sort of like prevent us from feeling happy about ourselves. So I'm, you know what, I'm right there with you, sister. And to all three of you, I, I, I do you bring up the, the, the concept of happiness. I do feel like, I don't know if it's an American thing, but it just very much feels like we always have to constantly be doing the next thing. Like we are not allowed to take stock of what we achieved. We're not allowed to feel happy or proud about what we did. It's always like, oh, I could have done this better or that could have looked a different way and sort. And so I feel like through writing this book and also through your lives, how do you guys feel like you have worked on your sort of path of learning how to be happy in the moment, even if something's not perfect. Guys, these questions are good.

Nava (42:00)

No, that is an interesting answer.

Pen Badger (42:01)

You're an incredible, incredible interviewer.

Phoebe Robinson (42:04)

Moderator.

Podcast Host (42:05)

Shout out. Phoebe.

Phoebe Robinson (42:05)

I read, I study. I want it to feel like we are in one giant sleeping bag together.

Pen Badger (42:11)

Yeah, it feels that way.

Sophie (42:13)

Very middle school.

Pen Badger (42:15)

I can go first. I'll try to be brief.

Phoebe Robinson (42:17)

This is a.

Pen Badger (42:18)

Sorry. I keep telling Phoebe this is a question. I'm not just saying that. Her questions are so great. Actually, I was thinking about this week. I've Been looking forward to this week for months and, like, trying to prepare for it and buying cute clothes for.

Podcast Host (42:29)

It and all this stuff.

Pen Badger (42:30)

And then I was like, I don't want this week to pass me by. And then it's over. This thing that I was looking forward to. So I. I have, like, a spiritual practice. So before I came, the night before, I. I said prayers, and I've never prayed for this before, but I was like, please help me just enjoy this week. Like, I feel like this week is going to pass me by and I'm going to be at CBS Mornings and I'm going to be, like, thinking about the View, and then I'm going to get the View and I'm going to be thinking about Drew Barrymore Show. Drew Barrymore show. And think about the flight to la. I don't want to do that. I want to be present at, like, each moment. I want to be, like. I want to enjoy each moment and, like, taste the sweetness of, like, each fruit for what it is. And, like, not be thinking about the next thing. And, like, I want to move through my life that way, too. Like, not just be, like, thinking about the past and, like, trying to relive it or thinking about the future. And, like, honestly, the future doesn't look that great for humanity, so I think a lot of us are, like, maybe not thinking about it. Let's think about the present. But, yeah, so just even, like, asking for some divine assistance, if that doesn't come easily and, like, maybe it'll come, you know? Yeah.

Nava (43:25)

How do you feel? Have you been feeling like you can cherish the dreadful.

Pen Badger (43:29)

No, I've been enjoying. It's been great. I've been enjoying. I've been trying to enjoy.

Phoebe Robinson (43:33)

Moment.

Nava (43:37)

Let's see. I really love that answer. I know. I now. I now. Can. Can you. What's the crux of the question?

Phoebe Robinson (43:45)

So the crux is, you know, we're so conditioned to never just be content.

Podcast Host (43:49)

That's right.

Nava (43:50)

That's right. That's right. Yes.

Phoebe Robinson (43:51)

Yes.

Ad Voice (43:52)

Yeah.

Nava (43:52)

And, like, whether writing in a book or just living in our lives. So, yeah, there's like, a few things I'll try to throw together somewhat briefly. Like, writing the book was interesting because I had to start way past deadline. Sorry, Molly. Because of my filming schedule for my show. And then we. We got hit by the person we had planned for the fall of childcare, like, just dropped out, like, and we were like, okay, okay, cool. And basically between my wife and I was like, I can just keep not writing. Okay. Yeah, great. You Know, and it was, like, extremely stressful. And then it was just this really condensed period of writing where, like, I had to blitz through in this way where, like, I did not have time for writer's block. I did not have time for not liking something. Something I did not. I was just like, oh, my God. It was kind of. It was like something that I don't yet even have enough perspective on was happening, where I was learning how to structure stories just as a creative who's trying to do that. And then also, like, something about what you're saying. I was, like. I was, like, not letting myself get caught up and just having to, like, drill through. And, like, my essays were way different. They went into so many different places. They were extremely long, and they were. I mean, it was like. It was all over the place. And then finally, right at the end, it was like, you know, and it just, like, worked. And I was like, oh, my God. Literally, oh, my God, I cannot believe that worked. And I completed it. And so I did something that actually, creatively, I can say, you know, as an actor, you're passive. And as an actor, you're rarely ever responsible for the words. You know, you're actually not responsible for hardly anything that's there, except for, I don't know, the way it looks, but not even the way it's shot, you know, so it's a. As much as you get credited for as an actor, it's such a passive role. And that can lead to. I think a lot of actors feel a lot of frustration unless they're working in things that they love. And very few actors are working in things that they truly love, to be honest. You know, and, like. And that's just a numbers thing. That's. That's simple fact. Matter of fact. So writing the book did kind of, like. I'm accustomed to having this kind of, like, yeah, there's a thing I did, you know, but then I'm like, actually, wait a second. Everything I wrote, like, I feel really good about, you know, and then when I was reading their essays, I was like, and I feel really good about being alongside these and the spirit of it, you know, so there's something about allowing myself to be proud of something that I think this book has been a part of. So that's. So. Yeah, so that's. So that's. I think. I don't know how coherent that answer is. That's what that is. That's what.

Podcast Host (46:45)

That's.

Nava (46:45)

This is what me being proud looks like.

Phoebe Robinson (46:48)

It makes sense, I think when you Have. I think sort of what you're getting at is like, especially about like the, the writing process. And you're like, I didn't have that much time, so I just had to like, get it done. Like, I think sometimes if you have too much time, you're like, I can just go off and be self loathing or I can overthink this and I could do whatever. But you're like, I gotta deliver this in like six months or I gotta deliver this in three months. It's like your body's like, let's go crush. Let's get this done. Cut the. Because we all just carry so much like over time. And I think you just like got out of the way of that.

Nava (47:22)

Yes. I actually think maybe the, the essence of what I was like, I think if I hadn't been given such a, such a. And the deadline wasn't crushing from the outset. Because I remember when we, when we signed up for this, I was like, I mean, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to film a season of my show and I don't know how the hell is going to work. It's like, all right, whatever. But lo and behold, we get to the end of my season, I'm like, fuck, this is going to be so crazy. And then our child care drops out. And I was like, whoa, how's this going to go? And then by the time I actually really sat down, I was like, this is a. Yes, a powerfully crushing. It was crushing. Yeah. And so I. But I don't think that I would have had the feelings of self worth to write a book myself otherwise. If there was any leniency whatsoever, I would have found a reason to overthink it. And that's where. When you talk about our culture, celebrity. Oh, oh. It makes you feel and think some ways that are not good for you. You know, I mean, it's like, it's like you can seem 98% like you're really handling things well, but then there's this seed of profound insecure. Insecurity feels like a pathetically small word compared to just the chasm of like self worth you don't feel you have compared to the completely inappropriate adulation you receive for reasons that have nothing to do with you and they couldn't possibly have anything to do with you. They couldn't. There's not a way it's possible. So therefore, if you're at all conscious of that, it's like, oh, I don't know how to contain. There's not A therapist alive, my friend. Yes, therapist. Have you ever been famous, you know, and for how long, my friend? I was born in the shadows. Batman. You merely play in them, you know, and so it. It. Yeah. So there's something that happened here that. That might be the beginning of just a different process creatively for me. Overall, that might be quite healthy.

Sophie (49:29)

That's really sweet. This is not to do with the book, necessarily, but overall, this feeling of enjoying the moment. I feel like when I was pregnant with my daughter, who's now 2. Right away, when I found out I was pregnant, which was early, very early, because I just can't wait for things normally. I just. My mom says I always have to have something on the calendar. I always have to have something to look forward to. And very early, I was telling people, and some people were like, should you be telling us? And they're like, you know, well, what? You know, what if something happens? And my feeling was kind of like, if something happens, something's going to happen. And then I will have missed out on the opportunity to share this really exciting, joyful news with you, and I'll only have sad news to share with you. And why would I skip that? Like, why would I miss out on the happy news if the inevitable is going to happen no matter what? And so I try to, like, remember that. Try to recall that feeling in other aspects of my life, too.

Phoebe Robinson (50:35)

I like that because I think. Bless you. I think I heard someone sneeze. But I do. I do feel like sometimes we can just be afraid of something good happening. It's always like, well, what's the gonna be? Like, how is this gonna fall apart? And it just. It takes you out of the moment. And I. I feel like that very much was a very teenage Phoebe. Sort of like, I was always like, nothing's ever gonna go my way. And so that's, like, how I move about the world. Okay, we have, like, a few minutes before we have audience. Q and A, which I'm very excited about. Great handwriting. Seriously. I also was like, oh, I think I might need readers. So that was a fun thing to learn about myself. Okay, I have two questions. First, when. How do you guys feel just about this book being out in the world? Because I know, like, for my first book, it felt like a little. Is this real? Like, I spent this time writing this thing and rewriting and talking to my editor. You look at, like, the COVID art and, like, everything is just, like, in a computer. And then now it's like a physical thing that you can smell and hold and so how do you guys feel about being published authors? Are you proud? Yeah.

Nava (51:55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (51:57)

Yeah, sure.

Nava (51:58)

Yeah, sure, sure. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's been a. It's not been a day, so I don't have perspective on that yet. You know what I mean? Like, I like it. It is. You know what I think probably would happen? That would be, like, if I saw it in a bookstore, which I suppose we're gonna see in the next couple days, like, because I did go to the basement of a bookstore to sign copies.

Phoebe Robinson (52:22)

What's it, the Strand?

Nava (52:23)

I'm gonna be 55 years old, and I'm still gonna be getting. I did go to a bookstore, but it was not up yet. It was not out yet, you know, so, like. So I have not seen. Seen it in a bookstore. And I think that that will be certainly. Yeah, a different experience, but, yeah. Really don't have perspective on it yet. It still feels like. You were saying, I don't think it feels real. Maybe when somebody's like, hey, I read your book, or I listened to it, more likely, and you know something about it. Da, da, da. And then I'll be like, oh.

Sophie (52:58)

I say this at some point, maybe in the acknowledgments of the book, when I acknowledge Pen and Nava and say, like, they forced me to do this, basically.

Phoebe Robinson (53:08)

I, like.

Sophie (53:09)

I think I tried to get out of it by being on maternity leave. And Nava's like, it'd be really weird.

Pen Badger (53:14)

If we wrote a book and you weren't.

Podcast Host (53:17)

Yeah.

Sophie (53:18)

But I did not, do not consider myself a writer. And so it was really. There's a lot of, like, stuff I had, had to and still have to work through. Being a published author.

Phoebe Robinson (53:30)

I'm like, you a writer, girl. You don't belong here. You a writer, girl. Your name is on the book. You a writer.

Pen Badger (53:38)

Thank you.

Sophie (53:39)

Thank you. But a friend. I was telling Pananava that a friend of mine, one of my best friends, closest friends, known him Since I was 19, 18, he wrote to me and he said, do I even know? He started listening to the book. He said, I'm realizing I don't think I even know you. And I think that makes me feel excited about the book being out in the world. Like, oh, there's things, I think all three of us have shared that even the people who are closest to us, who. I consider him, like, one of my best, best, best friends. And we haven't talked about middle school in the way that I share about.

Pen Badger (54:11)

It in the book.

Sophie (54:12)

So that makes me feel excited and to be alongside them. I've told Nava this before. I'm like, I'm really proud of your guys essays. So I'm excited to promote the book for your guys essays, But I'm excited about what I shared too.

Phoebe Robinson (54:26)

Do you need some water, boo?

Nava (54:29)

The water's not gonna do it for me.

Phoebe Robinson (54:31)

Oh, no.

Nava (54:32)

It's just, you know, it's a lingering, lingering.

Phoebe Robinson (54:34)

I know, but it'll help. It'll help to lubricate things. Maybe I should be a mom.

Pen Badger (54:44)

My honest answer. I'm really excited for the book to be out in the world. I hope people read it. I hope they enjoy it. I hope it does well. But my really honest answer is that I was very nervous, like, about reviews, and I hate that I felt that way, but I was like, I'm not gonna Google them.

Phoebe Robinson (55:02)

Not worth it.

Nava (55:02)

I actually hadn't thought about that before.

Pen Badger (55:04)

I was sort of. I was like, losing sleep. I was like, what if the reviewers hate it? What if they're like, these people only got a book because Penn Badger is a celebrity and this book is garbage?

Nava (55:15)

Well, there's part of that isn't true. We wouldn't have gotten the book. You know, I don't even. Saying, like, I deserve it. I'm saying, you know.

Pen Badger (55:20)

So my honest answer is that the first review came out from Publisher Weekly, and it was very positive. So now I've been sleeping again. I'm like, okay, great. Like, I'm not gonna look for any other reviews. There's a positive one. I don't need.

Nava (55:29)

You don't know.

Phoebe Robinson (55:30)

And it also. It doesn't matter. Like, honestly, because you wrote a book, most people say they want to write a book and don't do it.

Podcast Host (55:41)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (55:41)

So to me, I'm like, I'm not anti reviewers about Mike. It's so much about, like, the journey to going from this is a kernel of idea to, like, this is my book, baby. Like, that is truly the only thing that matters. Like, you should be immensely proud of yourself.

Pen Badger (55:56)

Thank you.

Nava (55:57)

Yeah, it's phenomenal. It's true. Because even, you know, Nava and I have a production company, and we're not, like, purposely leaving Sophie out. It's something that we started, you know, it's like. And I think is like, as people learning to just get better and better at structuring stories, like, I feel like I learned a lot. And so then. But then there's this other part where it's like, well, then it goes out into the world, and it, like, is compared to other. Any other existing literature, possibly. And that's where the feelings of inadequacy come in. But I mean, it's like, yeah, it is. It's. It's. It's very cool that we. We did it. We climbed a certain mountain. We did it. We summited it. And. And. But yeah, there will be reviews and we'll. Let's be real. We're going to read them so that we'll see how that goes.

Phoebe Robinson (56:45)

I'll just understand. Yeah, you're going to read the first book I like would go on Amazon. I would read every View and I was like, it's. And they would be nice, but it would be like, you know, 40 great ones and then one fucking cunt. And like, that. That would be the one that I would focus on. And then I would. Would talk to my parents. My mom would be like, did you see that? Like, she would get annoyed. She would get annoyed about. And we were sitting here getting annoyed about this one person said one shitty thing and letting that drown out, like, all the people that are gonna love the book. And I feel that way with this book. I'm like, I don't even. Everyone's gonna love this. Like, they're just going to love it. And if they don't.

Nava (57:26)

And that's the point.

Phoebe Robinson (57:26)

No, but if they don't, like, who gives shit?

Pen Badger (57:29)

Yeah, that's great.

Nava (57:30)

Yeah. Well, we will. We will.

Pen Badger (57:32)

We both.

Phoebe Robinson (57:33)

It's fine.

Ad Voice (57:33)

It's fine.

Pen Badger (57:34)

We'll have to work through it. Just a funny. I think this is funny. I don't know if you guys think it's funny. We did write every word. You know, sometimes there are, like, ghost writers for celebrities. But Pen didn't have a ghostwriter. We didn't have a ghost writer. You're going to read her like. Yeah, you didn't have ghost writers.

Nava (57:46)

But that transition could have, you know.

Phoebe Robinson (57:49)

Yeah.

Pen Badger (57:49)

We literally wrote every.

Ad Voice (57:51)

Every word.

Pen Badger (57:51)

And the hardest thing to write was a blurb. Like, it almost ended us.

Nava (57:55)

So true.

Phoebe Robinson (57:56)

It's just terrible.

Pen Badger (57:57)

The blurb was like, there were like 4:40 drafts. And the 100 emails and 12 groups almost knocked us out.

Phoebe Robinson (58:04)

It's so annoying because it's like, I wrote the book. Can someone in marketing write the blurb? Well, someone else. But we were just so.

Sophie (58:12)

Divas.

Phoebe Robinson (58:14)

Tweak it. Okay. Okay. You gotta be a diva sometimes. Okay. Beyonce's particular soaking. You can be particular too.

Sophie (58:22)

Yeah.

Pen Badger (58:23)

I was like, Taylor would. Is certainly writing her own copy. We're gonna write our blurb.

Phoebe Robinson (58:29)

Are you guys ready for some audience cues.

Pen Badger (58:32)

Let's do it.

Phoebe Robinson (58:33)

Okay. Okay. You guys were a non. No one really put their name on. Okay. The mystery of it all. Okay. Oh, this is a good one. What is a moment in your personal life, slash love life, where you knew you messed up but didn't want to take accountability. What ended up happening?

Nava (58:53)

So you want us to take accountability now on stage without the person there who we really need to apologize to? I don't know if that's healthy. I'm fine. No, so. So having been married for. For. For 10 years or. No, I guess we haven't been married for 10 years. We. We've been together for 11. Married for what, eight, nine. That's where I'm constantly having to, you know, learn what that word means. Really? Apart from that, to be honest, I've been in three relationships, and I feel I. You know.

Phoebe Robinson (59:34)

You nailed it. You nailed all of that.

Nava (59:37)

I mean, they're. They're. They're full of. They're full of, like, you know, transgressions of a kind. But, like, I've never. Not the big awful ones or anything, but, like, I can't think of something right now where I'm like, I did wrong, and I need to say something, and I won't. That's.

Phoebe Robinson (59:58)

You guys is the definition of a man. That's true.

Ad Voice (60:04)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (60:05)

Well.

Nava (60:08)

This isn't to say that I haven't done anything wrong.

Sophie (60:11)

I can't think of any.

Nava (60:12)

It's.

Phoebe Robinson (60:12)

It's.

Nava (60:12)

No, it's. But.

Podcast Host (60:14)

But.

Nava (60:14)

But I. But I apologize for them, is what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, I. I have apologized.

Phoebe Robinson (60:25)

You know, I'm just. That was. That was perfect. Oh, this is. This is cute. Do you have a favorite guest from the podcast?

Pen Badger (60:36)

Well, besides Phoebe? Baby, I've said this before, but I really loved Eddie Redmayne. He just, like angel vibes. Just, like, major angel vibes flowing our way.

Sophie (60:48)

I just loved him. Major.

Phoebe Robinson (60:50)

Yeah.

Sophie (60:50)

He gave us some good, good stories, too. I've also said this before, and this is from season early, season one, but she remains a favorite guest. Mona Chalabi. I feel like it was, like, more of a conversation than other episodes were, and she just, like, wanted to chat, and I loved that.

Nava (61:16)

Well, it's kind of. It's. It's. It's. There's, like, different kinds of favorites. I also love Mona a lot. That was, like, a very special interview. Conan was like, a moment where all the things. It was like, like, wow, we might have a real podcast that works here. It was very fun because he's such a good interview. So that, like, had a spirit and a moment to it where it was, like, kind of gratifying because he was so gracious. I mean, he really was. He was, like, so gracious. Did a little sketch with us, like doing a sketch with Conan o'. Brien. You know what I mean? It was a dumb sketch, but, like, he was, again, so gracious. So there was something about that. Otherwise, maybe Rami. Rami Youssef, when I really loved. Yeah, Agreed. Yeah.

Sophie (62:01)

Oh, yeah.

Nava (62:02)

My wife. Yeah. Okay. So what I can apologize to my wife for that I haven't yet apologized for is that she wasn't the first answer to that question.

Podcast Host (62:11)

That's cute.

Phoebe Robinson (62:13)

Okay, next question. I'm turning 30 tomorrow. Do you have any advice on how to survive this? It's not something to survive. Grow up. 30s are great.

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Phoebe Robinson (66:19)

You guys have a thing.

Nava (66:25)

To survive. 30.

Phoebe Robinson (66:26)

Yeah. Okay. But what I will say, the advice to survive 30s is I feel like that decade is a real opportunity for you to learn how to fall in love with yourself. That is what I will say. So that when you come out the other side of it and you're 40, you're untouchable dog. So that would be, that would be my.

Pen Badger (66:47)

Nobody wants to hear my answer because my mom died right when I turned 30. So that was the brutal. Everyone's always like, third wave for your 30s. Best decade of your life.

Podcast Host (66:55)

Worst decade of my life.

Phoebe Robinson (66:56)

Oh.

Sophie (66:56)

So, yeah, I'm with, like, almost right there with you and 31, but I feel like. I feel like there was a lot of anticipation for me around turning 30 and feeling like, as a woman, like, I'm losing my relevance, I'm losing my value. I. Yeah, there's. There feels like there's this clock. Even though I feel like I've achieved a lot of things, it feels like there's this clock against, like, my physical form, my. My face, how it looks like that. All of that comes into play. But I think just taking stock of the things that you do have, like you guys were talking about, like, just because I haven't achieved, like, maybe for one person, it's a family, maybe for another, it's like a certain career milestone. It doesn't mean all these other things in my life aren't super valuable and beautiful and worth enjoying.

Pen Badger (67:54)

You also have your face.

Phoebe Robinson (67:55)

Yeah, you have your face. Yeah.

Sophie (67:57)

I was like, I don't know, it's.

Phoebe Robinson (68:00)

Like gravity is just, like, so quickly pulling it down. Skin is skinny. I don't want to hear about gravity. I don't want to hear about science. Like, no, no, no, you look fantastic. Just lift weights. You gotta lift weights. That's my. You gotta do it. You gotta do it. Yeah.

Nava (68:15)

I mean, my experience of turning 30 was a relief. 20s felt incredibly 20 and teens felt deeply, darkly heavy. Deeply, darkly. You know, again, I mean, my teens started with that relationship with a woman who, you know, the heaviness seems to have literally killed her. And that really did mark me in such a profound way that, like, by the time I was 30, I felt like for the first time, I was like, oh, I might be young, you know, So I can relate to the feeling of not knowing how you're going to survive it, but not to turning 30. I do think the 30s can be a time where it can feel. It should be a relief from something. It should be a relief from some of this stress we have of time, youth, something, you know, like, that's what I think it should be. So if you just turned 30 about to.

Sophie (69:24)

Tomorrow.

Phoebe Robinson (69:24)

Tomorrow.

Pen Badger (69:25)

Happy birthday.

Sophie (69:26)

Happy birthday.

Phoebe Robinson (69:27)

Whose birthday? Who. Who is it?

Nava (69:29)

Nobody wants to say.

Phoebe Robinson (69:29)

Just say it. What? You. You.

Nava (69:43)

You might discover that you feel real relief on that. On the day.

Pen Badger (69:46)

Yeah.

Nava (69:46)

You know, it's this buildup. I. I do. I think I do recall the late 20s.

Phoebe Robinson (69:49)

You're like, no.

Pen Badger (69:51)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (69:51)

Age.

Nava (69:51)

You sound like Sophie over here. And then, and then, and then. And then you get there and you're like, oh, yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (69:57)

It just feels like more time. It doesn't feel like anything different. It's just movies and TV shows make it being like, you have to. I was. I forget what movie. It was like, some movie with Sharon Stone in it from, like, the 90s. And she's, like, talking to her coworker. She's like, I'm turning 30 tomorrow. What am I gonna do with my lives? And I was like, shut up. You're Sharon Stone. You're fucking great. Okay. Oh, this is so cute. I think we have time for two more questions. Okay, first kiss question. What? Fuck. I dropped my cards. What went through your head and how did you feel?

Pen Badger (70:34)

I've told this story so many times on the podcast, but if you haven't heard it, I guess what went through my head. My first kiss was don't tell my mom. My first kiss was at a birthday party playing Spin the Bottle. And then I went around to every single person who was at that party and said, please don't tell my mom.

Phoebe Robinson (70:48)

Please don't tell my mom.

Pen Badger (70:49)

Please don't tell my mom.

Sophie (70:52)

I had a few, like, small first kisses that. But those don't come to mind. The first, like, proper kiss. I remember spending months leading up to it talking with all my friends, like.

Phoebe Robinson (71:04)

How does it work?

Sophie (71:05)

Like, the physics of it just did not make sense. Like, how did two mouths come together? And, like, so many conversations, sleepovers, and. And I remember when it happened, I was like, I think we're doing it.

Phoebe Robinson (71:19)

Like, I think it's happening.

Sophie (71:22)

That was my thought.

Nava (71:24)

Yeah, it's probably similar in the sense for. For everybody, it sounds like, where it's like, you're. You're. You're not really present. You met. You know, you've seen it in movies and shows and stuff. And you're like. And they're always so present. But guess what? They're not. Because I know what that's like, too. Mine was. I referenced it very briefly in one of the essays, but I don't give all the details that I can give here. Just real quickly, it was. It was. Oh, my God. So it was my first week in la, so I was this short, fat. You know, I was like. I was just. I was not the kid who was at all getting the looks and the vibes from the girls in my grade, and I desperately wanted them. And I go down to la and I stayed in a mobile home. Park there, a trailer park there. And by the end of the first week, I had played Truth or Dare and had. And it was this. My first kiss was with two. God forgive me. I referenced it in the thing. It was with what I requested call. And I'm like, God, let my memory be wrong. It was with half sisters. It was.

Pen Badger (72:39)

It was.

Nava (72:39)

No, I'm telling you.

Phoebe Robinson (72:40)

I mean, it's very, very porn. That's what it is.

Nava (72:45)

And by the end of that week, I'd seen. I'd seen, you know, like, real porn for the first time. Not just like the. It was going to LA was like a sudden, sudden intense thing.

Podcast Host (72:56)

Yeah.

Nava (72:56)

You know, smoke a weed, drinking. So, like, it. I remember in my mind just being like, this is supposed to be so many things that it does not feel like anyway. I mean, it was. It was. Yeah. You know, it was like the beginning of, like, a relationship to. Is not. Not. Not a. Not a healthy thing, you know, frankly.

Sophie (73:15)

But do you remember your thought when you were kissing the two.

Nava (73:18)

It's like. It's like. It's.

Pen Badger (73:20)

Were you like, please don't tell my mom.

Phoebe Robinson (73:22)

Yeah, I think we're doing it.

Nava (73:25)

I mean, from what I can recall is like, I think I'm using my teeth in a way that I don't. That I'm not supposed to.

Pen Badger (73:33)

He stopped saying.

Nava (73:34)

I immediately was like, no, gotta open the mouth more. And then I figured it out. It was like a very. It was like, no, that's not. That's not okay. And it's. And now I think we've arrived. Okay.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (73:46)

All right.

Nava (73:47)

All right.

Phoebe Robinson (73:51)

You know, but that's great.

Nava (73:54)

You know, Good for you.

Phoebe Robinson (73:55)

Yeah.

Nava (73:56)

But weird.

Phoebe Robinson (73:56)

Good for you. Actually, we have time for two. Okay, so I'll do one. It's kind of more serious. And then, like, a cute one to end. Okay, so what one important lesson would you teach your kid, you know, imaginary.

Pen Badger (74:14)

Because we don't. I die.

Phoebe Robinson (74:17)

Yeah.

Nava (74:20)

Oh, my God.

Pen Badger (74:23)

It's not funny. Try to prefer others over yourself. I feel like there's not enough of that in the world.

Phoebe Robinson (74:29)

Girl, every. That is. That is such a great lesson. Phenomenal.

Sophie (74:37)

I don't know if this is a lesson. I've said this before. Pen has also said this before about his kids. My main goal, and I want to stay focused on this. I'm trying to teach her lots of things, but I want to focus on being an open space for her. I want her to tell me everything. I want to foster that. So, yeah, I think just, like, maybe the lesson I want to teach her is like. Yeah. Being open with me specifically.

Pen Badger (75:07)

Not with David, just with mommy.

Nava (75:14)

What, what, what lesson do we want to specifically? Like what, like what lesson we want to leave our kids with? I mean, there's so many. It's hard to nail one. Geez.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (75:28)

The.

Nava (75:29)

That's. Yeah. My brain is like emptying. It's just like, it's, it's like it's too important. It's like, like these, these, these important questions are hard to answer. Well, they're all boys, so it's got to, it's probably got to do something with, you know, what can. What cycle of, you know, negative masculinity can I, can I lessen what positive one. Can I start? I mean, yeah, I think openness, like, please talk to me about those things because then you just like release some of that pressure. You know, there's so much pressure that kids feel. Girls and boys feel it kind of like maybe about slightly different things in different ways, but like, I just know the pressure as a young boy. The idea you have about what it will mean to become a man is. It's absolutely terrifying. It's like that's. And yeah, just some way to relieve that pressure. So hopefully my 16 year old stepson feels some of that from me now and you know, hopefully my five year old and my newborn twins will feel like they can come to their father. I mean. Cause that's, you know, listen, God bless. My dad did the best he could in a lot of ways. Did not remotely feel I could go to him, you know, and so if I can be that, that's good. Lord, that's something.

Phoebe Robinson (76:58)

That's huge. It's so hard for boys to open up because we don't make it like a good thing for them. Do it. So. Yeah, I love that you got four boys. So you're gonna, you're gonna make four perfect men. And then they.

Nava (77:10)

And then, and then, and then we'll be okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (77:12)

The world's gonna be fixed.

Nava (77:13)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (77:14)

Okay, last question. This is so cute. If you had to describe your book in one word, what would it be? Smiley face.

Pen Badger (77:22)

You're really good at the one word challenges. You want to go first?

Nava (77:29)

Am I the one going one word? But if I could do that, we wouldn't have written it, right. Like 30,000 words. Good.

Phoebe Robinson (77:45)

We'Ll come back. That was the first time draft. We're gonna come back. Yeah.

Nava (77:50)

Give me a deadline and then.

Pen Badger (77:51)

Yeah.

Sophie (77:54)

It is really hard. I wanted to say like wet because like, maybe you'll cry. It's about middle school. Maybe there's, you know, Some there's like bodily functions and fluids.

Nava (78:10)

It's getting worse. What we started out so.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (78:15)

And sweat.

Sophie (78:15)

Maybe you'll be nervous.

Podcast Host (78:16)

Okay.

Nava (78:17)

All right.

Ad Voice (78:17)

All right.

Phoebe Robinson (78:17)

How.

Nava (78:18)

How about this? How about moist?

Sophie (78:19)

All encompassing.

Phoebe Robinson (78:20)

Moist.

Nava (78:20)

Yeah, that's better.

Phoebe Robinson (78:22)

One of the world's most serious question. Instead I thought, hey, wasn't that funny? So we have good moist. Moist.

Sophie (78:38)

Now bit a lot is riding on you.

Phoebe Robinson (78:40)

Yeah, I don't know.

Pen Badger (78:42)

I'm gonna say effervescent.

Phoebe Robinson (78:49)

That is how you close.

Nava (78:53)

Nava won the panel.

Phoebe Robinson (78:54)

That was amazing. Well, I am so excited for you guys. I love this book so much. I really do. You did such a phenomenal job. And he. I want you each to write individual books as well. Sorry to give you homework, but please don't. And thank you guys.

Nava (79:16)

Thank you all for coming, for coming out.

Phoebe Robinson (79:17)

Thank you, Phoebe.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (79:19)

Thank you, Phoebe.

Phoebe Robinson (79:20)

Thanks for having me.

Ad Voice (79:22)

And you can.

Sophie (79:24)

We signed.

Pen Badger (79:25)

We pre.

Nava (79:26)

Oh, yeah. All the books available here. We've signed.

Pen Badger (79:28)

Yes.

Nava (79:29)

We did it right before you came.

Phoebe Robinson (79:30)

They're all signed.

Nava (79:31)

Took a long time. It was 300 of them or something.

Phoebe Robinson (79:33)

Grab a copy, put it up on ebay tonight.

Nava (79:38)

Be disappointed with the return on investment.

Pen Badger (79:44)

No.

Phoebe Robinson (79:44)

I hope you guys enjoy the book as well. It's such a good read. It's so like, I just want to hug it and I want it to hug me back. It is just such a sweet little cuddle of a book.

Nava (79:54)

Alternatively, the audiobook is like. And I'm not. You know, it's really lovely to hear them narrate their essays. It's a. Yeah, yeah.

Sophie (80:02)

Us, not the professional narrator.

Nava (80:03)

Okay, but in addition to. I'm saying it's like, it's really nice. It's a. It has a really nice pace to it. I was able to listen to some of it today. And. Yeah, so I. I feel really good about that as well.

Phoebe Robinson (80:14)

Get the audiobook, guys.

Nava (80:16)

Yeah.

Phoebe Robinson (80:20)

You are on top of it. You, front row, helping him out with the answer about his wife.

Pen Badger (80:24)

You got the audiobook.

Phoebe Robinson (80:26)

Look.

Nava (80:28)

A.

Phoebe Robinson (80:29)

Okay. Well, is. Is that it? Should we leave?

Nava (80:32)

I think so.

Phoebe Robinson (80:33)

Thank you, guys.

Nava (80:34)

Thank you guys so much for coming. Thank.

Phoebe Robinson (80:35)

Good night.

Nava (80:39)

Give it up one more time for Phoebe Robinson.

Phoebe Robinson (80:45)

Every caregiving journey is unique. But the isolation, guilt, and exhaustion we.

Podcast Host (80:50)

All feel, that's universal.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (80:53)

It's reality. It's life. You know, I wish it could all be happy and joyous, but sometimes it's full of rage. And that is what it is.

Phoebe Robinson (81:02)

That's why this show exists. To be a safe place for caregivers to land.

Ad Voice (81:07)

Listen to squeezed.

Phoebe Robinson (81:08)

Wherever you get your podcasts.