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- [00:02]
Jay Ellis
Lemonade. I had a Sam Jackson phase where, like I said, non stop and the woman tells my mom, we don't say that word here. And I don't know what you let him do at home, but we don't use that word here. And that was the second school that I got kicked out of.
- [00:25]
Penn Badgley
Welcome to podcrust. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.
- [00:28]
Sophie Ansari
I'm Sophie.
- [00:29]
Jay Ellis
And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been.
- [00:31]
Sophie Ansari
Your middle school besties, blasting the Goo Goo Dolls and watching ourselves cry in the mirror.
- [00:36]
Penn Badgley
I just want you to know who I am. Right.
- [00:42]
Jay Ellis
Perfect.
- [00:43]
Sophie Ansari
Well, well, well. Today's guest is Jay Ellis, the endearing, hilarious actor that you know from series like HBO's Insecure. He's also on the current running point on Netflix. You know him from films like Freaky Tales, Escape Room, and oh no Big Deal, Top Gun Maverick. But it's not just the scream that Jay is famous for. He's also a published author. His book Did Anyone Else Have An Imaginary Friend Or Just Me? Tells stories of his early childhood navigating life as a military brat who was on the move constantly. It's a fascinating conversation. You're going to want to stick around for it. Jay is currently starring in a stage play called Duke and Roya, which depicts the unlikely love story between international hip hop star Duke and Afghan interpreter Roya in Kabul, Afghanistan. It opened on June 24th and it's currently running. If you're in New York City. Go, go, go. We urge you to go and see this. It sounds amazing. I wish go in my place because I wish I could go. We loved chatting with Jay and we know that you're gonna love it too. So stick around. Don't go anywhere.
- [01:49]
Nava Kavlan
Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium.
- [02:23]
Jay Ellis
Hey, it's Lena Waithe Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons like Phylicia Rashad, Loretta Devine, Ava DuVernay and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process, and the legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season two drops July 29th. Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcasts or watch us on YouTube.
- [02:53]
Penn Badgley
We start at 12 years old here. I mean, you have this rich vein that you've tapped in your book, so we know that you have a lot of. A lot of stories and stuff. But just give us a snapshot of Jay at 12. You know, how was he seeing the world? What was day to day life like.
- [03:13]
Unknown
For him and which country was he in?
- [03:15]
Jay Ellis
That's right. I think we were somewhere between Texas and Oklahoma. So 12 would be sixth. Seventh grade. Seventh grade we moved to Oklahoma. So I had it. I had a crazy growth spurt between 12 and 13 that was like early. Eight and a half, nine inches in about a year. Whoa.
- [03:34]
Penn Badgley
So you were a tall kid then.
- [03:36]
Jay Ellis
So I went. I went from a average height kid to a tall kid.
- [03:40]
Penn Badgley
Very interesting.
- [03:41]
Unknown
Oh, my gosh.
- [03:42]
Jay Ellis
Yeah. By the time I was in eighth grade, I was like, six, two. Whoa. Probably. Yeah.
- [03:47]
Unknown
That's crazy, Jay.
- [03:47]
Jay Ellis
Which was crazy.
- [03:48]
Penn Badgley
And that's when you were like, you know what, Mikey? It's been real.
- [03:50]
Jay Ellis
But I don't mean. Kidding, but I gotta go. But no, I mean, I was definitely coming out of, you know, you brought up my book. Like, I was coming out of this space where, like, my dad was in the Air Force, I'm an only child. We traveled a lot. I had an imaginary friend to cope with, like, the traveling and the new schools and all the new environments and also processing the world around me and trying to figure out, you know, what hip hop meant to me, what movies meant to me, what music meant to me, what all of these things, all these messages that you're kind of constantly receiving. Receiving at a young age. Also, you know, I think about, like, puberty starting to hit, you know? Totally. Yeah. You know, you start to, like, that's right around the time where you're like, oh, she's cute. Like, this is like, oh, you know, terrified to kiss, terrified to hold hands, terrified to do anything. But she's cute. So I feel like all of those things were happening at 12. And I do remember thinking, like, you know, one of the things that, like, me and two of my closest friends at the time, who are still two of my closest friends today, Jason and will, we watch SportsCenter every single morning.
- [04:58]
Unknown
Okay.
- [05:00]
Penn Badgley
I don't know why I Find that so funny.
- [05:02]
Jay Ellis
That's. We would erase the school and tell each other about whatever Stuart Scott said on sports it or whatever quick, witty pun he had that morning. Like, we were like, oh, did you hear what he said? This one. And like, that was like my morning thing. And then in the afternoons, I would race home for two things. One was, where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? And the second one was my dad got off work early. My dad got off work around. He would go to work around 5am he'd get home around 3pm, 3.30pm and my dad loved Matlock and the Golden Girls. And we would sit around and watch either Matlock or the Golden Girls on reruns. Like when I would get home from school sometime. And that's what 12 was for me. And it was also, obviously, there's music and there's all these different things, just me starting to play basketball. But that's kind of what 12 was for me.
- [05:57]
Penn Badgley
Can we ask? So, you know, I've never heard somebody speak about an imaginary friend the way you have written about yours. I have to say, like, I really enjoyed reading your book. I really, really loved this perspective that you took on that and how real you made it seem. It was so touching. So I just want to hear maybe, like, we always go back into earlier childhood after 12, like, however much it's relevant. But I feel like there's something about Mikey that our listeners would be really interested to hear, especially. Cause we start at the age where you start having to say goodbye. So I'm curious, where was Mikey around this time?
- [06:34]
Jay Ellis
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So, Mikey, you know, I say in the book that I truly believe that a child's imagination gives them what they need when they need it. And at times it's to protect us. At times it's to fill a void. At times it's to connect with other people or it's to process the world around you. Right. And as a kid, you don't know that you're just experiencing life. But, like, as I started to think about this book and started to think about what Mikey, my imaginary friend, was to me, what I realized is he was like the big brother that I never had. And he was there to help me process the world. And so that was everything from literally, you know, you know, I joke and tell this story that's a very not funny story. But it's also funny now that you look back and I made it out safely. But like, I talk about going to see boys in the hood for the first time when I was 10 years old, in theaters. And like, there were. There was a shooting, you know, two gangs, two rival gangs literally started popping off in the theater. And me as a little kid watching this movie that, you know, is Singleton's masterpiece in my mind today, but, like, also seen kids who look like me on screen, and then this crazy thing erupts and it happens, and it's this pandemonium of trying to get out of there. And like, how does a kid process something like that? Right?
- [07:55]
Penn Badgley
And you said that Mikey. Mikey told you before that he had the bubble guts. Isn't that right?
- [08:01]
Jay Ellis
He had the bubble guts. And I use that as, like, so crazy a way to talk about intuition and a way to talk about, like, your gut knows when something is right or wrong. We all have that feeling. And Mikey going into this, going into the theater said he had the bubble guts. And Mikey's bubble guts was a way. Is his body, which was my body ultimately telling me that something wasn't right, that this, this. This situation felt off for some reason. And it was off, and it became a situation. And so I think we all have that, and it's. How do you listen to it? Where do you find it in life? What are those little subtle signs that your body or your mind gives you to say, hey, you should just pay attention to this because it could be great for you, or it could not be great for you, or maybe there's something to mine out of it if you're not in the moment. I got to this place where Mikey started to fall further and further into the background, and there wasn't a visual manifestation of him anymore. There was just his voice. And then there wasn't his voice anymore. It was just my own voice that was starting to take over my own subconscious and my own thoughts. And really, I use in the book I talk. Talk about that. Like, Mikey, for me at that age was really just a. A form of self talk, which, again, we all have. And that's just how it manifested in my. In my childhood. And then, you know, you slowly start to find out over life that, like, oh, we all have this thing back here that we're listening to or not listening to that's helping us navigate the world that we're in. For good or for bad. Yeah.
- [09:34]
Unknown
You know, I'm so curious about you moving so frequently. Is it like 12 schools by a certain period of time?
- [09:41]
Jay Ellis
Yeah.
- [09:41]
Unknown
I'm curious, what was the first day at a new school like for you?
- [09:46]
Jay Ellis
Oh, miserable. Oh, I hated it. I never wanted to leave home. It was so. It sucked. Because what I started to understand really quickly is that in most cases, I was going into groups that had already been formed, because it was very often that, like, a lot of these kids had already gone to school together for a couple of years or lived in the same neighborhood or rode the bus together or whatever it is. And so I was always the odd man out, and I hated that.
- [10:16]
Unknown
Yeah, that's so tough.
- [10:18]
Jay Ellis
But then what it becomes is, like, all right, well, what's the fastest way into a group? And, like, at one school, it might have been, like, the basketball players, and at another school, it might have been, like, the theater kids. And at another school, it was, like, the debate kids. And it was like, what is the f. Fastest way into, like, me having some version of normaly and me having friendship and relationships? Like, you know, in. In this. In this school? So what it kind of turns into is like, me not realizing at the time, but I was, like, putting on a different character, like, at every single school that I went to. If I didn't, like the kid that was at the last school, or if he wasn't as popular as I wanted him to be, or if he didn't have as many friends as I wanted, then I could try something new at a. At a different school. I went to a school. I tell the story in the book, actually. I just. I think do. I'm pretty sure I do. I tell this story. I went to a school where 85% of the student body spoke Spanish as a first language.
- [11:14]
Sophie Ansari
Oh, yeah.
- [11:14]
Jay Ellis
Ramon. You were Ramon, so. And my middle name is Ramon, which we still don't understand how. My grandmother. I'm named after my father. My real name is Wendell Ramon Ellis Jr. We have no idea where my grandmother got Ramon from. I think she had a boyfriend named Ramon. Yeah. As an ex lover, this is how my dad got that middle name and so how I got it. But I decide that at this school, I'm gonna, like, take on, like, the Persona of Ramon, and I'm only gonna, like. So I, like, for weeks, for like, three or four weeks leading up to going to this school, I literally, like, watched Univision. I, like, listened to, like, Latin radio in Austin, which there's plenty available. I like, over. I would repeat phrases to myself over and over and over again. And my hope was that, like, I was gonna, like, learn Spanish. Yeah. And that I could get by just enough. Because what they did at the school actually is they put all the English speaking kids for a grade. They put them in One or two classrooms and the teachers would rotate around to the classroom while all the Spanish speaking kids would rotate from class to class to class. And so all I needed to do was get through like the first 20 minutes of the morning because I was then going to be in class with a bunch of English speaking kids all day. And then I needed to get through like lunch and then a few minutes after school to get to the bus. And so my mind, if I could get through 45 minutes a day, an hour of day of like making all these kids think that I was Ramon who spoke Spanish so funny then I was that. That was it. That was the new Persona that I was taking on. And it was disastrous. Like, I literally like on the bus on the way to school the first day, like, made an absolute fool of myself. And Ramon literally died that day and has been go ever since.
- [13:09]
Unknown
Rip Ramon.
- [13:10]
Penn Badgley
I imagine Mikey taking Ramon by the shoulder, just saying, brother, be yourself, man. Just relax. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, these two, these two Personas just off in the distance somewhere.
- [13:22]
Sophie Ansari
Yeah, I am. I was listening to this podcast, Good Mythical Morning, these two. It's hosted by two friends, Rhett and Link, who are like, I don't know, they have kids in their 20s, so they're probably in their 40s, late 40s or 50s, and they have been best friends since second grade. And they now work together, they have a business together. And they were telling this story of sitting on this rock when they were 12 years old and talking about their dreams. And I, similar to you, I moved every, on average of every two years. Looking back, I'm like, I don't know, I don't have that many lifelong friends, if any. That's something from my childhood that I missed out on because of the way that my parents brought me up. And that was something that Rhett and Link, who I was listening to, really got. And I was feeling like a pang of sadness. Like, dang, I just don't have that experience. Like, I can't change the way that I grew up. I just don't have that experience. But then there's also all of these things that I gained from the experience that I did have that Rhett and Link, I'm just using them as an example in this case, don't have because they didn't grow up the way that I did. And it reminded me of this therapist we talked to. He was talking about this in the context of relationships, but he said any attributes that a person has is both a bug and a feature. Like, it has this. It has, like, a side to it that is beneficial and a side that is, that is not. And I'm curious, it sounds like you just described a little bit like, it allowed you to play characters. It allowed you to, like, get into this zone that you've actually used now in your career. But we know you weren't able to make lifelong friends because you moved around every year. I'm curious if there's anything else you feel like your upbringing did give you, like, what are the features?
- [15:06]
Jay Ellis
Yeah, I mean, I do think, to your point, I was always jealous of the people. I'm very jealous of people who say that they've known someone their whole life. Like, I'm very, very, very, very jealous of that. Because I. I don't have that. For me, it starts in about middle school, which is the last week, because we stayed in Tulsa, Oklahoma, basically, middle school through high school. I bounced around to school still every year and a half, every two years. So I still went to. I went to two middle schools and two high schools. But some of those friends, three of those friends from middle school are still my closest friends today. And then there's another two or three from high school. And the six of us are actually all really, really close. All five of them live in the same city. And then I'm the rogue one out in la. But. But I get very jealous when I hear that. I also get jealous of people who, like, have pride for a city. Like, when you're like, oh, this is my town, I grew up here. I. Blah, blah, blah. Like, I get so jealous because I don't have that. I don't. I wish in a lot of ways I did. And also, I'm very grateful that I don't have it because it allowed me to move around. It allowed me to meet a lot of people. And, like, I feel very comfortable in any room I go in. I think humanity and empathy are something that I feel like I tap into very, very quickly. Because with. I do think an experience like moving around like, that allows us, for you to see how similar we all are. Regionally, we may have our own thing. Internationally, we may have our own, obviously, cultures and traditions, but at the end of the day, you know, I kind of boil down to, like, we all want the same four or five things in life. And it's health, it's happiness, it's for our. Our next generation to do better than what we did for ourselves, and then some version of peace. Like, I think we're all in search of those four or five things. Whether we know it or not. And they get masked in different ways. Sometimes they get masked with money or with fame or with grind or with legacy. They get masked with all these different things. But I think at the end of the day, like, that's what most of humanity is really in search for. Like, we want to be seen and then we want people around us, obviously to see us. And then we want these, these, these few other things that I said earlier. And I do think that, like, that is a gift that I was given from moving around so much, is really being able to be comfortable anywhere. I always make a joke with my friends that, like, I'm good on any Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard anywhere. I'm good. Like, I feel very comfortable. Like, and I don't know if I would have had that. I don't know because I don't have another, another set of data to, like, draw from. But, like, I don't know if I would have had that experience had I not moved around as much as I did. And I think the other piece is, like, if you knew that you were going to spend a year transitioning to whatever you maybe may be, you may believe afterlife is. My guess is the things that you would think about in that time are the happiest moments you had in your life, the things that made you smile, the people you love, the experiences that you had. You may think of some things that hurt you, you may think of some things that like, you know, created this core memory that kind of sits with you in a way. But my guess is you would spend most of that time hopefully thinking about the beauty that you had in life. And so this other thing that I kind of feel that, like, I got from that experience is like, if I'm not going to remember it or talk about it whenever my time comes, I just gotta let it go. Like, at the end of the day, I'm here for, like, happiness, growth, longevity, health, all of those fun, you know, joy. I'm here for all of those things. So, like, if I'm not seeking that at all times, which I'm human, I err a lot. But if I'm not seeking those things or if I'm dwelling on the bad things that I'm probably not gonna remember 40 or 50 years from now, then it's not worth. Experience the emotion, experience the moment, go through it, because it is true and it is real. But then after that, you can find a way to release it and let it go.
- [19:22]
Sophie Ansari
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
- [19:26]
Penn Badgley
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- [20:53]
Jay Ellis
Out loud a lot.
- [20:53]
Penn Badgley
That's very exciting. Cyan and hot pink as well as of course, classic black. Start with the ultra portable pop party speaker for beach picnics. Step up to Go party for backyard barbecues. You could level up with JBud's party for all day beach sessions. And go epic with the epic party speaker in classic black delivering 100 watts of massive 360 degree sound for unforgettable summer nights. Look for the blue box at retailers everywhere. Or shop jlab.com and use code podcrushed for 15% off your order today.
- [21:26]
Sophie Ansari
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- [25:04]
Unknown
We will talk about your career, I promise. But we have two classic questions that we ask everyone. One is if you can tell us about your first big crush. Infatuation, love and first feelings of rejection, heartbreak.
- [25:17]
Jay Ellis
Oh my God. I write about it in my book. High school, third grade, Ms. Calloway.
- [25:22]
Penn Badgley
Oh yeah, the stapler.
- [25:26]
Jay Ellis
So I'm in third grade. So I guess that's probably like eight years old. Seven. Eight years old probably. And we're in Austin, Texas at the time. And I'm at Beatty elementary School and there's a teacher named Ms. Calloway. And Ms. Calloway had like mocha color skin, big curly hair. And she was the sweetest, nicest, like every, even in her most stern moments, like everything about her was just like, it was amazing. It was like at all times the sun was shining behind her. Like when she walked through the doors, like angels trumpeted. Like it was the most amazing thing. And she had this rule in her class that if you got in trouble, you had to sit in the chair next to her desk. And that was punishment. And I was, I was in trouble every day. You couldn't keep me out of trouble. Like I would do something every single day because it got me closer to miss, to Ms. Calloway. Well, there ends up being, at that age, kids are just kids. And young boys tend to be pretty all over the place at that age. And so there was another kid, his name was Lou Tan. And Lou was always in trouble as well. And in the book I talk about how like Lou's hair was always like perfectly slicked back. Like he was Pat riley in the 80s. And like he just, he was just this good looking kid who like at all times, like was perfect. And then he would get in trouble and sometimes he would end up in my seat next to Ms. Calloway. So I decide, Mikey and I in my seat, like in my throne next to my queen, you know what I'm saying? So Mikey and I, I had to plan with Mikey to get in that seat. And he tells me that I should staple my hand first. He tells me I should pee on myself. And I'm like, no. We go back and forth about if I should pee on myself. He's like, yo, that's a bad idea. Because no. No woman wants to sit next to somebody who peed on himself. Like, that's a horrible. That's not. Unless it's a baby in a diaper. Like, that's not happening. And so I feel this pressure when we get in class because I think Lou is about to, like, get in my seat. So I run up to her desk and I slap. I slide my hand between the stapler, and I slap my hand, like, whack a mole. I mean, I pop it so hard. Wow. The entire class is, like, silent. And, like, a few people gasp. And she's just staring at me, and I just cry. I mean, tears, tears, tears. Look down, my hand is bleeding. There's a staple that's sticking out of it. She tells me to go to the nurse. I say, the nurse doesn't like me. I ask her to take it out. She reaches in her purse, she gets some tweezers. She pulls it out. The next day, I decide that I need to find a way to say thank you. So I lived on a Bergstrom Air Force base at the time. And there's this. Most of the housing were basically, like, duplexes. And we run over. There was this house that was across from a bus stop. And Mikey and I run across the street, I grab a rose, pick the thorns off of it, take it to school.
- [28:20]
Unknown
Oh, my gosh.
- [28:21]
Jay Ellis
So class early. I skip breakfast at school, which was, like, biscuits and gravy fat borning, which is my favorite. And I skip it because I love Ms. Calloway. That much. Sacrifice. And so I go to class, I give it to her, and I ask her if she'll be my girlfriend. And she's like, nah, nah. Like, that's not. No, that's not happening. She basically is like, I'm too old for you. I'm your teacher. You're my student. Like, you're too young. And she says, one day you'll find a nice girl that you will fall in love with and, like, that'll be your girlfriend. And that truly was, like, my first heartbreak. That was like, I was crushed after I didn't want to go to school the next day. I was completely crushed after that. Completely crushed.
- [29:07]
Penn Badgley
Did you get in trouble after that? Did you get. Did you. Did you sit in your chair ever again?
- [29:12]
Jay Ellis
I said, I Got in there every once. I definitely still got in trouble. I definitely still got in trouble. I got in trouble a lot, guys. I got kicked out of three out of two preschools growing up. I got in trouble a lot. Preschool.
- [29:23]
Sophie Ansari
Kicked out of preschool.
- [29:24]
Jay Ellis
Even though they did that one because I wouldn't stop biting kids. And the other one, I was a biter. I was, I would bite. And the other one is because I had a Sam Jackson phase where like I said fuck non stop. Oh, that is too much.
- [29:40]
Penn Badgley
That's so good.
- [29:41]
Jay Ellis
Like non stop. Like literally I would say to the teachers, I would say to the kids. And like, finally, this woman who ran this preschool calls my mom one day. My poor mom again. I think we're living in Austin. Yeah, we are in Austin at this point. Has to catch the bus because we only have one car and my dad had the car. She has to catch the bus in like an 88 degree, humid temperature, Texas day from work to come pick me up from this preschool that I'm getting kicked off of, kicked out of. And the woman tells my mom, we don't say that word here. And I don't know what you let him do at home, but we don't use that word here. And that was the second school that I got kicked out of.
- [30:18]
Penn Badgley
That's actually a really great little like image of. Because you, you are also like particularly, you just seem incredibly good natured and just like, I mean, look, so many people do. You're gonna come on a podcast and sort of put it. But you just, I mean. Cause I have a four year old right now, four and a half year old and a 16 year old. And then we have two more on the way, twins. So I'm just thinking a lot these days about. Thank you. I'm thinking so much about development, you know, as you inevitably do. You're thinking about every day you have this opportunity to sort of, you know, as you said, like mess them up less or more, you know, and every time they have some new behavior. I think the worst thing a parent can do is like take it personally and think like, oh, what am I doing? Because then they like kind of overreach and over discipline. But it's really heartening in some ways to hear you were at like 4 year old, 4 years old, just saying fuck all the time.
- [31:17]
Unknown
Terror and biting people.
- [31:18]
Jay Ellis
Yeah.
- [31:19]
Penn Badgley
Inviting people.
- [31:21]
Jay Ellis
Yeah. I mean, listen, I think to your point, I mean, and you know this, like, like as a parent, I definitely am seeing it a lot more.
- [31:29]
Penn Badgley
How old are your kids, by the way?
- [31:31]
Jay Ellis
My oldest is five and a half. My youngest is 11 months. Okay.
- [31:35]
Unknown
Congratulations.
- [31:36]
Jay Ellis
Thank you. Thank you. You're more than welcome to take them for weekends. I love them, but Just take them for weekends. But no, but I realized that, like, she's learning to express herself, and she doesn't know what she's saying half the time, and she doesn't know why she's acting the way she's acting half the time. So to your point, it's like, how do I not take that personally? And how do I just let this person develop? And then we put some guardrails on and we have some conversations at times when things can get a little too big or maybe you need to understand what you're saying or what that emotion is or how to better control that emotion or how it affects other people. But at the end of the day, she's just trying to figure it all out. Most of us are still trying to figure it all out. We just, like, understand our vocabulary a little bit better and have gone through some experiences, but we're all still stumbling through this thing called life.
- [32:38]
Penn Badgley
Speaking of life, I think we need to get to your career. We want to talk about your career because we could spend. I mean, it's actually such a joy going through your early years. But let's. Let's get to when you saw acting as an opportunity. The performing arts suddenly opened up to you and you felt like you could take it. And then we'll get into your. Your first jobs.
- [33:01]
Jay Ellis
So I will say, like, I remember watching stuff and I was like, oh, I want to do that. How do they do that? What is that? And having no idea what that even. Even was, I got a chance to go play college basketball. While I was playing college basketball. It is a job. It is not easy. It was very early mornings. From five to seven every morning we would be in the gym, and then we would go back to the gym from like 3 to 7 every afternoon. Or if we were sharing the gym at a certain part of the season, three to five, luckily. But then we'd have to go do something else anyway. I remember being so jealous of the theater kids. So jealous. I was like, man, they look like they're having so much fun. They're just walking around and they're all free and they're all, like, doing accents and, like, in their bodies. And I was so jealous. And so I used to buy electives to take some classes around the theater program. I could never commit to a production, A, because of my basketball schedule. But then B, also, I was Just straight up a coward. I was way too afraid to walk into the locker room and be like, hey, you guys want to come see me in Pippin? Like, I'm in the title role. Like, I just as like in a towel in the locker room, like after practice. Like, I just was way too afraid to do that, right? And so later I end up, I graduate, I bounce around for a little bit. I lived in the mountains in Arizona, randomly for like six months up in Prescott, Arizona. I spent some time in New York. I spent some time traveling quite a bit. And my time in New York, I was like, oh, I did that theater thing. I did a little bit of a theater thing. So I want to do that. How do I do that? And it was hard and harrowing and not having the experience of this city and not knowing people and just trying to figure it all out with no money. And it just felt like the craziest thing to me on the planet. And I was like, I think I want to do TV and film, so I go to la. And I had gone to school with a kid who had made it. Like, he was doing pretty good. He had been on a couple different TV shows, he had done a couple different movies. He had dated a string of very, very, very famous women. And I saw him and I was like, well, if he can do it, I can do it. And I had no idea again, what that even meant. But I was like, if he could do it, I can do it. And so we would go out all the time. There was this birthday party that we were at. I was very, very wasted, and I was talking to like a few people about what it was like to live. At one point, I lived in New York in a model house with 16 guys, in a two bedroom house with 16 guys in long Island City. And I was telling the story of how crazy it was. Like, you know, every. Every morning is like, somebody in the shower, somebody on the toilet, somebody brushing their teeth, and somebody banging on the door. And like, that's just Tuesday. And this agent walks up to me and he's like, hey, are you an actor? And I'm like, of course I'm an actor. I'm in la, right? And so he's like, come to next week. Bring your headshot. Bring your resume. I literally got headshots off Craigslist that weekend because I had. I paid somebody $75 for headshots. Cause I had no, I did not have headshots. And I had typed up every job I had had since high school and gave him this Resume and I slide it all across his desk and he like puts his glasses down and he looks at me and he's like, you have no idea what the hell you're doing, do you? And I'm like, no, but I swear to you, I will figure it out. I want this. I will figure it out.
- [36:31]
Sophie Ansari
Wow.
- [36:32]
Jay Ellis
And so he hip pockets me for about six or seven months, which is like, he basically sends me out on auditions, but doesn't officially represent me, which is such a weird thing, but he does that. And I don't book anything. I had never taken an audition class before, so I had no idea what I was doing. I literally would like do auditions and be looking straight in the barrel, like of the camera for my auditions and had no idea. I remember auditioning for 7th Heaven, if you guys remember 7th Heaven. Oh yeah. I remember auditioning for 7th Heaven and it was a very dramatic scene and the casting associate who was behind the camera laughed and I walked out and I was like, I brought some levity to it. Like, I thought I was clever. I thought I brought a, I brought a choice. So she loved it. And six months later, this dude calls me and he's like, listen, man, this isn't working out. Like, you're, you're, you haven't gotten good feedback, you're not, you're not progressing any, you haven't booked anything. And my immediate young 23 year old reaction was like, I don't want this. Like that. I'm not doing this. You're not gonna reject me? I reject you. I don't want to driving all across la, like getting parking tickets because I don't have change for meters. And you know, on my lunch break from work, like, whatever. And so I ended up working for like four years, just kind of bouncing around, five years, almost just bouncing around jobs in la. And I worked retail and it's so transient, you can like move up pretty quickly. And I did that. And I found myself as a west coast regional manager of a company. And I had a territory that was Chicago, down to Texas, out to Hawaii. I was in a different city every single week on the company's dime. I was 26 years old, 27 years old, and I was like, I'm out here. Like, this is amazing. It was the most amazing thing. You couldn't tell me. I wasn't like living the life. And then I got let go. And all I could think to myself was, my boss called me, she had gotten let go and she was like, they're probably gonna let you go next and she was telling me that so I could call a headhunter to try to find another job. And all I could think to myself was, I moved to LA to be an actor. And I was a coward once again. And I was too afraid to actually just go through the process. I was too afraid to go sit in class, I was too afraid to get rejected. I was too afraid to like just do the work. And if I was going to do retail, I could do it anywhere in the world. So why la? And for me that was this thing of like, just go do it. Just don't have the regret in life that you didn't try because you know you love this thing and you keep coming back to it. So do it. And so I did. I went and got in class. I was in class for like, I was probably 26. I was in class for like three and a half, four years, two years straight before I got representation. In the third year I got rep and I started auditioning a little bit and then I started working pretty quickly. Pretty, pretty quickly I went from auditioning. My first couple auditions were, ended up being test for network pilots, which was, which was pretty.
- [39:29]
Penn Badgley
That's huge. That's huge. I mean especially when you're, when you're, when you're starting out, that's like a, that's jumping up to. Just for people who aren't familiar with it, that's like just the stakes and the feedback is pretty immediate. I mean that's like, that's not, that's not everybody's experience.
- [39:46]
Jay Ellis
Yeah. Which is like, you know, which sucks because as you know, like, you know, in a test, essentially three or four people all get brought in for this one role, but all three or four people have signed a contract for five years for X amount of dollars. And you're like, what? Yeah, I'm gonna make that. This is crazy. And so the stakes are so high when you go in because all you're thinking about is like, this is a life changing job. Like my life will never be the same. I've made it. If I book this job, like I'll get to do all the things I ever wanted to do and I'll be on TV and I'll make all this money and I'll be famous and all these that are not about the work at all whatsoever literally start to creep into your brain, which makes it so horrible, the process, so horrible. And the process is also bad because like the four of us would all sit next to each other in a hallway and then one by one go in the room and audition. So you also have to watch the person. You have to listen sometimes outside.
- [40:43]
Penn Badgley
Yeah, sometimes you can hear it, which is the worst special kind of torture.
- [40:48]
Jay Ellis
Pin gets a laugh. And I'm like, like, oh, well, should I, should I, should I do that?
- [40:51]
Penn Badgley
He's bringing levity. I need to bring levity.
- [40:53]
Jay Ellis
I gotta bring levity. He did it, so I gotta do it. It just becomes this. It's a, it's a horrible, horrible process. But luckily, my first, I would say in my first 20 auditions, five of them were testing for network comics. And from there it was just kind of like I had booked a pilot for Comedy Central that didn't go. And in that next pilot season out, I went through pilot season, tested a bunch. And at the very end of pilot season, the game, which had been on the CW originally and then had gone to bet, was entering its fifth season. They were about to have their hundredth episode and they were replacing two characters. They're bringing in two new characters. And I had known the show, I had watched the show before, never thought it was a show that I would get hired for at all. Had never thought about it as even potential of an opportunity for me. And I got called in to audition and I auditioned for that, that, that job eight times. And on the eighth time was my final network test and I booked it and that was it. After that, I, I, I was in Atlanta within a few months working and around all these craftsmen who, everyone on that cast, the main core of that cast had all done over most of them. This was their second or third show that had gone into 100 episodes. So most of them were in their, like 300th episode, 250th episode of television. And for me, it was just an opportunity to learn, like, the stakes. We also knew going into it that it was going to be the last season. So the stakes were, while they were high because it was my first job, the stakes were also low because it wasn't the pressure of, like, trying to keep a show on the air or, like, did it fail because of me or whatever. And so for me, it was just an opportunity to go learn and play and try to just figure out this thing in real time in terms of, like, being on set and what it means to be on set every single day. And we ended up doing four more seasons. And it was an absolutely, it was life changing. I mean, Mara Brock, A Kill completely changed my life for sure.
- [42:55]
Penn Badgley
So then take us to Insecure.
- [42:58]
Jay Ellis
I am finishing the game. And they had split our final season up into two seasons of 10 episodes. And I get a call. Actually, we're still airing. A buddy of mine, a development exec, calls me and says, hey, have you read Issa Rae's new script over at hbo? And I was like, no, what is it? He said, it's called Insecure. You should read it. I'm going to send it to you. There's a role in there that's perfect for you. He sends it to me that night, I read it that night, and the next day, I literally call my entire team and I'm like, hey, who knows Issa? Who knows this Printis Penny guy, who's the showrunner? Who knows the executives at hbo? Like, how can I go get this job? I want this job. That was in January. I don't audition for it until July is when they actually start auditioning that role. I go in and I am the second person to audition for that role.
- [43:58]
Penn Badgley
Which usually means that you're not. Like, if you're going in that early, there is almost, no, it's not you.
- [44:04]
Jay Ellis
It's not you. You're not the guy. It's not going to happen. I'm the second person to audition for this role. And I actually walked in and auditioned for two roles. So I auditioned for the Daniel role, which was in season one and season two, and I auditioned for the Lawrence role, which obviously ran the whole series, and I wanted the Daniel role. I had just sold a pitch to Sony for a TV show, and I was like, I'm gonna go make my own show. I'm gonna. I had no idea that development. Most things that go into development don't get made. And development is like, obviously you sell a show and then you have to go, like, do a story document and an outline and a couple drafts of the script, and then they decide if they want to move further. And I didn't know that most things die in development. A lot of stuff gets sold in development, and very few things get made. But I was just determined that that's what it was going to be. So I don't hear anything. I go, I do the audition, I do both characters. I leave, and I'm out on a charity motorcycle ride in Ohio and I get a phone call that, like, hey, can you get back to la? Because they want to test you for Insecure. And I was like, insecure? Oh, the thing that I read for, like, six weeks ago, I was like, I thought that was done. And they were like, yeah, apparently they want to see you for it. So I go in and I Audition against three guys. Alon Noel, who plays Daniel, who ends up playing Daniel in Insecure, and Neil Brown Jr. Who ends up playing my best friend Chad in Insecure. The three of us test against each other. The three of us don't know each other. We all test against each other. And I walk out and the HBO offices in LA at the time were in Santa Monica. And so for me to get back home to where I lived, I had to get on the 10. So I'm about to do a SNL skit for sure. I had to do get on the 10 and take that like a very long way to get to where I lived. But anyway, from where the HBO offices are to the 10 highway is about a 10 minute drive. And I would say within 13 minutes I got called and they told me that the job was my. After I walked out of the HBO.
- [46:07]
Unknown
Offices, Lawrence was born.
- [46:09]
Penn Badgley
Did you feel that when you were in there?
- [46:11]
Jay Ellis
I didn't, I didn't because I, I didn't understand because, you know, my. The only experience, not the only experience. I mean, I booked a pilot before that didn't go. But my experience of booking a show that. That was a show where I actually got to go to work every day was the Game. And I auditioned for it eight times before I got it. So me auditioning one time and then coming to test felt like the craziest. It didn't feel. My brain just couldn't really comprehend that that's what was happening. I was like, oh, this feels so weird that like six weeks later they're calling me back for this thing. And it's funny because like now going and having converse, like, you know, obviously we've now spent so much time together, but like having conversations with them, they were like, oh, that's him. Him. But they were like, he was the second person we saw. It can't be him. There has to be more people out there. Like, we gotta see other people. And it ended up that it was, it ended up being me. And so that, that's how that thing kind of came along and was obviously an absolutely amazing ride with people I absolutely love. And I got to play a character that I'm so grateful that I got to. That I got to do and affect people and make people love me and hate me and all of the above.
- [47:26]
Unknown
Yeah, Lawrence has such a great arc and it's so believable. Like, they took their time. I felt like with his growth and he has this sort of regressions, I felt like the Lawrence character was handled really well. But from season one to where he ends up, it's really surprising. Like, you wouldn't expect that. I think from season one, which wasn't.
- [47:41]
Jay Ellis
Supposed to happen, by the way. I wasn't supposed to make it past season one.
- [47:44]
Sophie Ansari
Really.
- [47:45]
Jay Ellis
Yeah. Because that character wasn't supposed to make it past season one.
- [47:47]
Unknown
Cause the way he's written in season one, you're like, what a glow. Up for the rest of the.
- [47:51]
Jay Ellis
Yeah, it wasn't supposed to happen. Essentially, that kind of last scene in season one, which is the last couple of scenes, which are a phone call between Issa and Lawrence after a breakup, and then Issa going home to see that Lawrence isn't there, then cutting to Lawrence having sex with another woman. I never understood what break the Internet means until that moment. I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever experienced in my life. It was just wild to see how much people. So many people had opinions. And there was such a visceral response to it, which was really, really cool. But that for the writers, when they went back to season two, they were like, oh, we have to solve for that. We can't just leave that out there. If it created that much conversation, then that is something that our community and at large, we're talking about as people or we're not talking about as people, and we should be talking about. So how do go back and continue that conversation? And so luckily, I got to do. I got to do a few more seasons.
- [49:00]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [49:00]
Jay Ellis
Amazing. Yeah.
- [49:02]
Sophie Ansari
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- [50:52]
Nava Kavlan
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- [52:01]
Jay Ellis
Sometimes we dig into the deep stuff.
- [52:03]
Nava Kavlan
Like how I communicate with my dead best friend. And sometimes we give bad advice based.
- [52:08]
Sophie Ansari
Off a TikTok I saw.
- [52:10]
Nava Kavlan
And we're not going to apologize for that. Absolutely not. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hire a psychic medium. Join us, won't you? Listen to the Deep Dive wherever you get your podcast from Lemonada Media.
- [52:28]
Unknown
We could talk so much more about Insecure and all of your projects, but we're mindful of time, so maybe we'll just talk. One question About Top Gun, one question about Running Point and one question about Duke and Roya. So obviously Top Gun Massive. Working with Tom Cruise is kind of a unique special opportunity. We're curious, what are you carrying with you from that experience? Sort of what you learned from him. You've talked about how generous he is.
- [52:53]
Jay Ellis
Yeah.
- [52:54]
Unknown
Just what can you tell us about that experience and working with Tom?
- [52:57]
Jay Ellis
Yeah, I think it's really cool to see someone like that who's such at the top of their game and has been for so long. Love it so much. And like, still be a student and still care. Like, he. He can tell you five Korean filmmakers and seven French filmmakers and 10, like new. Like, he's constantly watching stuff and like being inspired by stuff and. And the way people are using camera, the way people are using film, the way people are shooting action or drama or whatever it may be. And I think it's just really cool to see somebody again at that level, still care in the way that he does. And then the other thing that's really amazing is for him to be so gracious and giving with his time and into helping you develop the thing that you want to develop in your craft. Right. His big thing with us was like, I'm going to show you everything I do as I prepare for a film. Take with you what you want want. This is what's worked for me in my career. These are the things I've learned to ask for or I've learned to need or how I focus or prepare or eat or train and like, you know, take with you what, what you will. And it was really cool to be able to like, you know, go to those paces with him and kind of pull some of that stuff away and, and take it with you as you kind of go to your, like, to your next thing and as you train for the next thing or as you, you know, gotta go into ketosis for your next role or whatever it is. Like, there's so many little things that we were able to kind of pull from our experience with him and then even post that. Like still being able to call him and say, hey, can you watch this thing? And like, tell me what you think about it? Or hey, you know, I did this movie called Freaky Tales where I had to. I play this guy. His name is Eric Sleepy Floyd. He's a professional basketball player who played for the Warriors. But in this telling of the story, he's also like a. He's basically like a samurai. He is Uma Thurman and Kill Bill Skill for lack of A better, like, example. And he goes on in this movie to, like, exercise all of those skills where I had never done martial arts before, I had never done weapons before. And, like, all of a sudden, I'm training six hours a day, and, like, how do I keep. How do I not fall apart? Like, how do I not let inflammation take my body out or hurt myself? How am I eating? How am I resting? All these things? And, like, I just sent him a text message, and he was like, like, this is what I have done, and it's worked for me. Wow. And I was able to incorporate some of those things. It was life.
- [55:31]
Penn Badgley
That's amazing. That's amazing that you're like this, you know? Yeah, that's amazing that you have that with him and that he also offers that.
- [55:39]
Jay Ellis
He offers that.
- [55:40]
Penn Badgley
That's really cool.
- [55:40]
Jay Ellis
And, you know, I mean, you know, you don't get that that often in this industry.
- [55:44]
Penn Badgley
No, you. No, you really don't.
- [55:46]
Jay Ellis
You don't get it. Most people are like, nah, I do my thing. And then you just show up and you say some words together. So, like, it, you know, it was really, really cool to, to, to have that and to have someone that you feel like you can call, by the way, he'll read a script and be like, yeah, here's my notes. Here's what wild, like, you know what I mean? Like, here's the thing. It's like that where you're like, wow, you. He's truly been like, come to me for whatever you need. Like, I'm happy to.
- [56:13]
Penn Badgley
Does he have more hours in the day? Has he unlocked, like, what?
- [56:19]
Jay Ellis
I, I, I ask him all the time. I'm like, man, you must sleep like, one of the things. Miles Teller and I talked to him about this while we were on top of the USS Theodore Roosevelt at 700 miles, at it out at sea shooting something. And we were like, man, do you sleep like five hours a day? And he's like, no, I always get eight hours of sleep. Always. And you're like, how, bro? How? Because you did 77,000 things today, so how did you get eight hours of sleep? But his whole thing is, if I don't get my stuff sleep, then I can't do all the things that I do.
- [56:53]
Penn Badgley
Actually, I really feel that that is. I have had to be more methodical about sleep in the last three weeks than I ever have. And I have to say, it's kind of unlocking something happen to have lost it last night because the little one had a nightmare. But, yeah, that's Real.
- [57:10]
Sophie Ansari
In Running Point, you play a basketball coach, and you told a story earlier of how actually basketball and wanting to, like, get out of the drills, not wanting to be doing that intense practice was kind of led you to theater and to acting. What was it like to bring those two worlds back together?
- [57:30]
Jay Ellis
It was cool. It was really, really cool. It's pretty wild to, like, go to work every day and a basketball court is your office. Yeah, that was really wild. Like, every single day, I would go to set, and I was always on a court, and I was like, oh, this is. This is cool. I like this. Like, I'm, like, dribbling a ball nonstop. I split my pants at one point, and they were like, bro, could you just chill? Like, you're the coach. Yeah, yeah. But it was fun because I also got to think about all the coaches in my life who, like, you know, in some ways, had been, like, mentors for me in different ways. Some I couldn't stand and some I loved. And even whether it was the ones I couldn't stand or the ones I love, like, there was still something to take from that. And so, like, that was fun to kind of get to pull from that and put into this character. And also, I mean, this character is ultimately modeled after Phil Jackson. And so it was also, you know, I think of my childhood and how much I loved the bulls in the 90s, and you couldn't get away from the Bulls if you turned the television on for the part. You can get away from Mike for sure. And. And so it was cool to also just kind of think about, like, the things that I saw and feel and loved at a distance, and, like, how could I bring those into this character? It's fun. It's a fun job. It's actually a really, really fun job because everyone on that set really loves each other, and everyone is so perfect for their roles. So it's actually a really, really cool experience.
- [58:49]
Penn Badgley
That's nice when you have that.
- [58:50]
Unknown
You're having that experience. Okay, tell us about Duke and Roya. Previews just started. You're doing live theater. You had run away from New York in theater. What's that like?
- [58:59]
Jay Ellis
It's crazy to come back all these years later and do it and also get to do it at this theater at the Lucille Lortel, which is, like this jewel of a theater in the West Village that's had so many amazing productions over the last couple of years, productions that have gone to Broadway. I mean, Omari Cole being one of them, who obviously just won a Tony last week. It's really cool. Cool to. To be here. It's also terrifying. No, there's nobody to yell cut. There's nobody to save you. There's nobody to edit around a thing. If you take. If you take a pause, that pause lives in the show. Like, we're not cutting that pause out. Like, it's just. It is what it is. We can't cut to somebody else. So it is terrifying. But in a lot of ways, it's also like. I don't know, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier that I feel like. Like, you know, part of the reason I do this is to be challenged. It is to push myself, and it is to be a little bit afraid. Like, I could continue to do the same things over and over again. And there's nothing wrong with that. I have no judgment on that. It's just not what I've chosen and. And why I want. Yeah, why I want to do this. But Duke and Roya, for me, it's this play. You know, it's about a rapper who goes on a USO tour to Afghan Afghanistan. Excuse me, in, like, 2017. And he ultimately falls for his interpreter, who's a woman who's, like, sneaking on and off base dressed as man, because at that time, women were not allowed to work. And so it's this very. I keep saying this, and I'm sure Linkletter is probably having a heart attack somewhere, but it's literally, for me, it's like Before Sunrise set in Afghanistan. It's these two people who just spend all this time together walking around and talking and in kind of questioning each other's culture, in each other's views and traditions and the worlds that these two characters come from. They ultimately start starting to start to learn more about themselves and their own identity and, like, who they are as people, and they fall for each other. They're both. They're both, for the first time, kind of seen and letting someone see them for who they really are and. And, I don't know. It's a really fun exploration. I think my tie to the military is fun. I've done some USO tours before. Before. So, like, that's been fun. I've never gotten to do music in a project before. I rap four times in this play. I do four original songs in this play, which is crazy. Crazy. So, like, that's a ton of fun and also terrifying, but also, like, I get my rap Persona out. You know what I mean? So, like, it's like, I get to live it for, like, you know, three minutes at a time and then, and then I get to tuck it away and come back and you know, just be me. So it's fun. It's a really great play. I'm really proud of it and excited and we built a really amazing team. Our team is wildly diverse. We have two people from Afghanistan on our team. We have, I mean literally every culture, someone from every culture is represented. Not every culture, but quite a few cultures are representative. So like even the diversity we were able to build both in front of house and back of house is pretty, is pretty spectacular and pretty special.
- [62:01]
Penn Badgley
Amazing.
- [62:02]
Jay Ellis
Yeah.
- [62:03]
Penn Badgley
Well, we do have a classic final question that we ask for all people. If you could go back to 12 year old Jay, what would you say or do?
- [62:16]
Jay Ellis
If anything, just enjoy the ride.
- [62:21]
Penn Badgley
Would Mikey say that or would you say it?
- [62:24]
Jay Ellis
I mean, I don't think Mikey would say it. Mikey was. After all this time. Yeah. After all this time. Yeah. I think it's, it's. I say this and I understand how like, like it has probably been overused in so many ways. But I do believe life is the journey. Like I just believe that every, you know, if you think of we're all on a path and your path is going to lead you wherever it's meant to lead you. And so I, I do believe that at times, you know, we hit a fork in the road or, and you can go one way or another and sometimes you go away and it still seems like it's taking you a further and further away from your path path. But then ultimately you kind of end back up on it. And I think that like those kind of trails and those moments where you, you're off your path, they're meant to be lived, they're meant to be experienced. There's something for you to take out of those, whether it's. And be present in those moments that ultimately are going to get you back to alignment and get you back to the thing that you ultimately want to pursue or do or chase or wherever you want to be be, which hopefully is like, you know, your happiest higher self. And so I just think I would tell 12 year old me to just enjoy it.
- [63:44]
Penn Badgley
That's lovely. Thank you.
- [63:47]
Sophie Ansari
You can get tickets to Jay Ellis's new play at duke and roya.com and you can follow Jay online at J R Ellis. That's J A Y R Ellis. Podfresh is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavlan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to La Monada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all.
- [64:44]
Jay Ellis
Bye.
- [64:49]
Unknown
It's easy to feel helpless these days.
- [64:51]
Sophie Ansari
So take a break from the bad.
- [64:52]
Jay Ellis
News and hear from people who are doing good things to address big problems.
- [64:57]
Sophie Ansari
We care about abortion access. We care about slowing down, reversing climate change.
- [65:03]
Jay Ellis
That's the approach we need to these long term systemic problems. We need the fixers feel empowered to take action.
- [65:12]
Unknown
Listen to good things from Lemonada Media.
- [65:14]
Jay Ellis
Available wherever you get your podcasts.
- [65:20]
Nava Kavlan
Hi, I'm Erica Mahoney. You don't know me, but you know a version of my story. Because by now we've all felt the impact of senseless gun violence.
- [65:29]
Penn Badgley
I think a stray bullet flew past me because I hear the it was.
- [65:34]
Unknown
That horrible feeling of dread.
- [65:36]
Jay Ellis
Something's wrong.
- [65:37]
Nava Kavlan
Four years ago, my dad was killed in a mass shooting. My podcast Senseless is about moving forward after the unthinkable. Senseless from Lemonada Media premiering June 17.