Jesse Metcalfe

Summary

---

Podcrushed — Jesse Metcalfe (February 4, 2026)

Main Theme & Purpose This episode of Podcrushed brings together hosts Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, and Sophie Ansari with actor Jesse Metcalfe. While the show typically dives into the awkward, formative experiences of middle school, this installment blends lighthearted nostalgia—especially through Metcalfe and Badgley’s shared history on John Tucker Must Die—with deeper exploration of adolescence, personal trauma, Hollywood expectations, and spiritual transformation.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rewatching John Tucker Must Die

• 00:41–03:19: The hosts reminisce about seeing John Tucker Must Die as young teens, reflecting on the music, casting, and surprising elements they didn’t recall, such as Brittany Snow’s lead role.
• Penn Badgley: “She really carries it. She is the glue. She really carries a movie that’s not easy to carry, I think.” (03:00)
• Discussion on problematic gender tropes and dated jokes: The hosts laugh about the infamous estrogen scene and why it may not hold up for Gen Z audiences.

2. First Encounters & Middle School Reflections

• 09:24–16:39: The hosts invite Jesse to look back on age 12, his home life, school days, and emotional landscape.
• Jesse Metcalfe: “I was definitely into the arts...I never entertained the idea of being an actor. I was bullied as a child.” (10:47)
• Jesse’s early sense of being an outsider, “pretty boy” bullying, and how feeling different at a prep school shaped his “chip on his shoulder.”

3. The Lasting Effects of Adolescence & Navigating Hollywood

• 16:16–17:33: Jesse discusses the “inner script” of not being good enough and how childhood perfectionism translated into controlling behavior on set.
  • “Perfectionism, to me, is kind of like...you control every facet of that situation in order to be the best.” (16:39 – Metcalfe)
• Surviving the tabloid era and how criticism fueled mental health challenges and alcoholism.

4. Early Career & Big Breaks

• 20:51–32:13: Jesse describes moving from modeling gigs in his teens to NYU Gallatin, later transferring to Tisch to pursue directing before acting took hold.
• Passions Soap Opera: He landed the main role of Miguel after his first real audition.
  • Memorable moment: “I had a storyline where I went to hell. In my girlfriend’s closet. To save her.” (29:25 – Metcalfe)
• Learning craft at breakneck soap speeds and finding kinship with fellow actors.

5. From Soaps to Stardom: Desperate Housewives & Early Hollywood

• 32:17–39:01: Jesse recounts the intensity of pilot season—then much more in-person, high-pressure than today—and landing Desperate Housewives after quitting a lucrative soap job.
  • “I just quit a job...and now I’m unemployed and I haven’t booked anything.” (34:49 – Metcalfe)
• Age and appearance on Desperate Housewives: Both he and Eva Longoria played far younger or older than reality, blending youthful energy with adult themes.

6. Reflections on Typecasting and Career Choices

• 37:26–39:01: Coping with being “caged in” by heartthrob roles and the pressure to strategize after an initial big break. Jesse regrets some impatience:
  • “You have to stay patient...patience has never really been a virtue.” (37:53 – Metcalfe)

7. Revisiting John Tucker Must Die and Hollywood Realities

• 46:37–58:26:
  • Penn and Jesse reflect on their experience shooting and what watching the film today brings up.
  • Penn Badgley: “What I see is the inability to overcome my self-consciousness ... painfully insecure. I remember...I wanted to be the sexy, confident, cool one.” (48:35)
  • Jesse reassures him: “Your performance and your character actually grounded the movie...there’s a lot of strength in being honest about not knowing who you are, and not being supremely confident at that age.” (49:39–50:49)
  • Behind-the-scenes stories: Y2K-era young Hollywood, shared hotels with the She’s the Man cast, and awkward first encounters with sushi and edamame shells.

8. Gender, Generational Shifts, and the Prospect of a Sequel

• 53:44–56:20: Nava raises how John Tucker Must Die is now viewed as “so sexist.” Jesse reveals there is a “John Tucker Must Die 2” script, but: “I’d be happy to leave John Tucker where it’s at...the fact that people are still talking about it is insane.” (56:20 – Metcalfe)

9. Spirituality, Rock Bottom, and Personal Renewal

• 63:08–76:00: The conversation pivots to Jesse’s frank reflections on hitting an emotional bottom in his 40s—despite outward success—and the emptiness of material achievements.
  • “Material things, money, property, cars, you know, that doesn’t feed you. That doesn’t sustain you...It’s important that I hit a rock bottom...so I could build it back better.” (64:00–64:25 – Metcalfe)
• The social responsibility of spirituality and the need to protect one’s mind from bitterness and darkness: “You gotta have some spiritual center. You gotta have a power greater than yourself that exists in your life.” (77:54 – Metcalfe)

10. Parenting, Healing, and the Cycle of Fatherhood

• 67:52–83:07: Discussion deepens into parenthood as a crucible for personal growth—Penn shares candidly about being a father of four boys and his fraught relationship with his own father.
  • “You can heal those wounds by showing up for your own child and breaking that generational trauma.” (82:28 – Metcalfe)
  • “Relationships are tough...You grow immensely from becoming a parent.” (73:13/74:35 – Metcalfe)
• Both men wrestle with breaking childhood scripts and whether, as adults, they can be the parent they wished they'd had.

11. Entrepreneurship: Skincare and Breaking New Ground

• 83:21–85:16: Jesse discusses launching his gender-neutral skincare line, Neutral: “There’s not a lot of heterosexual guys pushing skin care. So I was like, maybe this is my lane.” (85:16 – Metcalfe)
• The inspiration stems from his own battles with acne and being asked frequently about his skin.

12. Final Reflections: Advice to the Middle School Self

• 86:16–86:42: When asked what he’d say to his 12-year-old self:
  • “Trust yourself. It's all gonna be okay. I was constantly in survival mode...only now, at 47, am I finally kind of starting to relax.” (86:16 – Metcalfe)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was definitely into the arts... but I never entertained being an actor.” – Jesse Metcalfe (10:47)
• “I was bullied as a child... everything seemed to center around the way I looked.” – Jesse Metcalfe (11:28)
• “I developed a strong sense of perfectionism... at the detriment, probably, of everyone else around you.” – Jesse Metcalfe (16:39)
• On Passions’ insanity: “I had a storyline where I went to hell—in my girlfriend’s closet—in order to save her… fighting demons.” – Jesse Metcalfe (29:25)
• “You have to stay patient as far as waiting for the next piece of material... For me, patience has never really been a virtue.” – Jesse Metcalfe (37:53)
• “I'm glad I did [high school sweetheart relationship], it sets an amazing standard... but it is pretty rare to marry your high school sweetheart.” – Jesse Metcalfe (19:18)
• On spiritual emptiness: “Money, achievement can really feed your soul. But material things—money, property, cars—that doesn’t feed you.” – Jesse Metcalfe (64:00)
• “Trust yourself. It’s all gonna be okay.” – Jesse to 12-year-old self (86:16)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:41–06:38 — Reminiscence about John Tucker Must Die and the 2000s pop culture vibe
• 09:24–16:39 — Jesse Metcalfe’s adolescence, home life, and bullying
• 20:51–32:13 — Early gigs, NYU, and break into Hollywood/soaps
• 32:17–39:01 — Pilot season and Desperate Housewives
• 46:37–53:02 — Behind the scenes and acting insecurities on John Tucker Must Die
• 53:44–56:20 — The ethics of a sequel and changing cultural standards
• 63:08–76:00 — Spirituality, meaning, and inner transformation
• 67:52–83:07 — Parenthood, fatherhood, and generational healing
• 83:21–85:16 — Launching a skincare business
• 86:16–86:42 — Final advice to middle-school self

---

Conclusion & Tone

Podcrushed blends banter, nostalgia, and emotional depth in this episode. There’s warmth—the “could have been your middle school besties” vibe—contrasted with genuine vulnerability about bullying, perfectionism, fame, addiction, and rediscovery of meaning. Jesse Metcalfe’s openness about his struggles, spiritual growth, and learning to parent himself as an adult makes the conversation relatable and affirming both for fans of his work and anyone who’s ever carried their middle school wounds into adulthood.

Transcript

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Lemonade.

[Penn Badgley]

We're all eating, and there's edamame on the table, right? There's edamame on the table.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And you shot an edamame.

[Penn Badgley]

No. So I had never seen edamame before.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Because you're like, what is this?

[Penn Badgley]

And the whole time, I'm just kind of.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You put the whole thing in your mouth and shoot it up.

[Penn Badgley]

No. So here's what I did after, like, halfway through the meal, I find I'm like, I'm gonna have some. And I reach in and I stretch him, like. And I'm just like, what the fuck is this? And I realize that's when I realized this has already been in somebody's mouth. Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Pen.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm Nava.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I'm Sophie.

[Penn Badgley]

And I think we could have been your middle school besties.

[Sophie Ansari]

Pen, would you have let us braid your hair?

[Penn Badgley]

If my wife doesn't make me cut it.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, God, no.

[Penn Badgley]

But this is in middle school. I was married in middle school. David. Hello. Hello, and welcome to Pod Crushed. I am your host, whose name you already know. Let's be honest. I am joined by my nameless, faceless co hosts, Neva Kavlan and Sophie Ansari. Everybody give a round of applause.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Hi.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hello.

[Penn Badgley]

Today. Our guest today is Jesse Metcalf, who, you know, I mean, let's not reduce him as. I wouldn't want to be reduced to my characters. But of course, he played John Tucker in. He was the eponymous titular character of John Tucker Must Die, one of the first big movies I was a part of had a small role in it as his brother, the Arthur Tucker. And I'll wait for your nervous systems to calm. Sophie Naba, you had seen the movie before, to be clear.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, Well, I think we had similar experiences. We both had seen the film before.

[Penn Badgley]

In what context did you first see it, do you think? Did you go to the.

[Nava Kavilan]

I saw it in the movie. I saw it at the movies with Friends.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, I think it came out 2006. So I was. That was. I was in Middle School 2006-2008. 9. So, yeah, it was like all the music, everything.

[Penn Badgley]

The music was crazy.

[Sophie Ansari]

That popcorn just brought me right back.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Dirty Little Secret.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, I was like, whoa. Yeah. Wow. That was a time. And it was a long time ago now, like, Timothee Chalamet wasn't born.

[Nava Kavilan]

I definitely want to hear your experience rewatching it. The only thing that I'd say is that rewatching it, I was Shocked because we had Britney Snow on the show. And I know we did talk about John Tucker, but only a bit.

[Penn Badgley]

A little.

[Nava Kavilan]

A tiny bit, because I lead the charge on the prep. And I did not remember that Britney Snow was even in John Tucker. That was like a revelation. I didn't remember she was in it. And then. So when I watched the movie, it had come up in the conversation that you guys knew each other from doing it. And I was like, oh, Britney Snow's in it. Who is she? I thought she was the lead and.

[Penn Badgley]

She'S supposed to be invisible. That's actually quite funny.

[Nava Kavilan]

No recollection that Brittany Snow was, like, absolutely the lead of this movie. So to me, that already it was just shock after shock after shock.

[Penn Badgley]

And by the way, she really is, like. She really carries it. She is the glue. Like, I mean, she was so good. I actually regretted not having rewatched it before. We interviewed her years ago on Pod Crushed. Cause it's like a. Cause she's so. Yeah, she's so good. She really carries a movie that's not easy to carry, I think.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, totally. I think my favorite scene was when John takes estrogen and complains and Adam.

[Penn Badgley]

Says, that is bananas. It's. Sorry, I talked over. Yeah, I talked over you. So in case anybody listening can't hear. So John Todd, who's supposed to be 16, by the way, you know, played by Jesse, so gorgeous and Sexy in his mid-20s, although he does look young. And he does. He takes a bunch of estrogen. You know, it's being snuck into his, like, what, you know, protein powder or something. And just like that. It's a device that it makes him act like a very particular kind of feminine trope. It's just. I was like.

[Sophie Ansari]

Suddenly becomes, like, overly emotional.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Do my thighs look fat?

[Sophie Ansari]

Exactly. In his basketball shorts?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And then he basically, like, everybody always says, john, John, John, who's thinking about me, you know, like he's carrying the team. Like he's the overworked wife of a family of eight. It's so.

[Sophie Ansari]

There's so much in that movie that is. That's like, whoa.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

I guess that's what 2006 was like. I don't remember it being like that, but I guess it was. But that takes the cake for sure, that scene.

[Penn Badgley]

To me, that's why. And I say this with love for everybody involved. That, to me, I'm watching it, I'm like, this is why the Gen Zs.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Ha.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, this is, you know, exhibit A. So, I mean, there's so many, like, just. Just so. Just inappropriate things that I was just laughing out loud at. I was like, I can't. I actually can almost not believe some of it. It's like.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's hilarious.

[Nava Kavilan]

Were you just laughing or were you crying in horror and sending us weird texts all the time?

[Penn Badgley]

My face was turning red anytime I was on camera. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Such a. Such a. Such a baby.

[Nava Kavilan]

You had great hair, though, I have to say. I was like, wow, that's like the best his hair has ever looked.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, I wrote, I want to chop Penn's hair off because it looks like your hair.

[Penn Badgley]

It was giving you flashbacks to when you were being identified as a dog. That was so good.

[Nava Kavilan]

How funny. Well, Pen, what was it like to be reunited with the other.

[Penn Badgley]

Other Tucker, the main Tucker? Really sweet. I was having kind of like, sense memories throughout the interview of being like, wow.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And I feel like he really hasn't changed, you know, And I probably haven't changed either.

[Sophie Ansari]

You know, it's probably all thanks to Neutral.

[Penn Badgley]

All thanks to his skincare brush. He'll like that. But why don't we. Why don't we. Let's bring old Jesse on, right?

[Nava Kavilan]

Let's do it.

[Penn Badgley]

So, as we said, we got today, Jesse Metcalf. His breakout roles in Desperate Housewives, Dallas, Chesapeake Shores, these all. Everything he did basically is part of an entire era of pop culture, maybe in a certain sense, crowned by. The thing that brings it close to home for me is, you know, he's John Tucker, and John Tucker must die, as I said. And I am the other Tucker. I am his brother in that movie. I don't think that Jesse and I had seen each other.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I don't.

[Penn Badgley]

It might have been 20 full years, you know, like two full decades. That's. That's. That's a. That's a lifetime for most of our listeners. Uh, so, you know, it was. It was a joy to have him. You're gonna have a joyful time listening. We'll be right back after this break.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hiya, Julia. Louis Dreyfus here from the Wiser Than Me podcast, among other things. And I've got a bit of a hot take. Our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. We don't always know how or where our food is grown. And if we throw food scraps in the garbage, we don't think about where it's going, or at least we try not to. One way that I get back a little of that connection is by using my mill food recycler. Sure. Mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never, ever smells. But this is also really important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens if I wanted backyard chickens. And I don't know, maybe I do now, maybe I don't. Anyway, maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try Mill's risk free trial and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfuss. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonade Media is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome. Thank you to Paw Crush. I want to dive in so bad and just. And just catch up.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Absolutely. Me too.

[Penn Badgley]

Before we do that, we're going to get there. We're going to get there, we're going to get there. But we always start at 12 years old, so. And this is, you know, something that we were just saying before the cameras rolled. And I don't even know that I've shared with Nevin. Sophie, you know, as much as we hung and worked together intensely for this, how many, what, like six weeks, eight weeks? Something like that. It was at least, I think it was almost a few months.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Like, I think it was like 10 weeks.

[Penn Badgley]

It was like you were, you were in Vancouver, you were shooting every day. I was like hanging out at whatever that hotel was.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Right, the Sutton Place.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, the Sutton Place. That's. Oh, man. The Sutton Place. So. But we don't really know that much about each other.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

We really don't.

[Penn Badgley]

Like we hung.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

We really don't.

[Penn Badgley]

We were not at that period of life where we were gonna just be Opening up constantly. So I'm actually not necessarily, at least about, like, adolescence. Cause I know for me, I was 18 years old when we shot that. I was not about to go back and be like, here's who I was as a child, you know, so that's what we do here. We start at 12 years old. We wanna get into all the trials and tribulations and the comedy, the highs and the lows of adolescence, Right. Of coming of age, growing up. So just give us a snapshot, Jesse, at 12 years old. And then what we. So we want that kind of daily life vibe. Okay. And then we also. Because, you know, almost everyone who comes on is a performer of some kind. Was that on the horizon for you at all then?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

There was indications that it would be on the horizon. I was definitely into the arts. Okay. I loved to draw and to paint and I played instruments, I sang in the choir. But I never entertained the idea of being an actor. Okay, but you talk about being 12 years old and adolescent, very formative years. I had a pretty rocky adolescence. I was for the majority of my adolescence. Well, you know, I had a stepfather that was very present in my life, but I had a pretty truculent relationship with my father. I also was really bullied as a child. I mean, like at school. Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

What kind of school?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, you know, regular school, elementary school, middle school. Then I went to, you know, upper crust sort of prep school for high school called the Williams School on Connecticut College campus in New London, Connecticut. And, you know, I was more of a blue collar, middle class, at times lower middle class kid. So I didn't necessarily really fit in there. But, you know, everything seemed to center around the way I looked as a child, you know, Meaning I was a very pretty boy. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I will say that you look amazing. And you look. I mean, you know, I'm no slouch here neither. But what I'm saying, it's amazing how you look like.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I always looked a lot younger when I was a kid, a lot younger than I actually was. And I think I still look relatively younger than I actually am.

[Penn Badgley]

You really do? I had that until. I appreciate it for boys. No, you look younger.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You really do. But I think those formative years really informed a lot of the things that happened within my career in Hollywood. In adulthood, I definitely had a major chip on my shoulder coming into Hollywood and starting my career. That didn't really work to my benefit.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. And I would guess that you were not. Well, maybe. I don't know. Were you aware of that? Of that Ship. You know what I'm saying?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You can say it now. No, no. In my early 20s. No. People started to make me aware of it and then I started to try to control it, you know, work on it, do therapy, try to get rid of it. But it was kind of like a lot of the things that haunted me from my adolescence resurfaced, you know, in Hollywood.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, totally.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

When I came to town, a lot of people picking me apart, you know, for my appearance here. You know, when we came up in the early 2000s, that was when, you know, online tabloid media was really exploding.

[Penn Badgley]

That's true.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And, you know, I kind of got chewed up and spit out by it, and it really did a number on me, you know, and sort of drove some alcoholism that I was dealing with at that time, you know, and, you know, didn't always bring the best out of me.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So let's go back to the original trauma then. 12 years old.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Let's do it.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's go deeper. So that day to day life, you know, I mean. Cause I totally. I also looked very young, especially as a boy then I was like, I was just a cute little boy and I wanted to be, you know, as a 12 year old does. Sexy.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. As opposed to a man, you know, macho, masculine. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So tell us about, like, what was day to day life like at home?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I have a really amazing mother who's just kind of been my rock and has supported me through every trial and tribulation I've ever had in my life. My mom has been married and divorced three times.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You know, and is now happily remarried.

[Nava Kavilan]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

She knows how to do it. You know, she's getting it.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I mean, some would say she's been unlucky in love and some would say she's been lucky. She certainly had a lot of suitors, you know, but they haven't always worked out.

[Penn Badgley]

Can I ask how your stepdad. I don't want to sound flippant. What number was he? Like, how many did you go?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That was my mom's second marriage, but my mom was never married to my biological father.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Okay. Yeah. So, you know, technically it was her third, you know, long term, really serious relationship. But I mean, life for me was, you know, I worked for my stepfather's landscaping business, you know, as a. When I was 13, 14, 15, when I come home from college over the summers, I just had a very regular suburban blue collar upbringing. But I did really struggle in school. You know, where I grew up, people that were creative, artistic, it Just didn't resonate with how young people acted. In my area, everything was really driven by sports, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

And you played basketball.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yes, I played sports. You know, I wasn't a star. I wasn't a star athlete, you know, but I played a lot of sports growing up. I mean, I had a good childhood. I had a relative. I mean, growing up in Connecticut, it's very. I grew up by the water. It's very idyllic. But it wasn't always easy.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Jesse, I'm curious because you referenced this early on, and in prep, I read a little bit about this. You talked about, like, being bullied as a kid, and I think I heard you say that it really shaped a lot of the inner script or the inner narrative you had about yourself, like, going into adulthood. So I'm just curious if you're comfortable sharing with us, like, what was that inner script that started to develop as a kid? Like, how are you talking to yourself.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And how are you seeing yourself, generally speaking? That I wasn't good enough, you know, that I wasn't. I wasn't tall enough. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't attractive enough. I just wasn't. I wasn't a good enough actor. I wasn't good enough. And to cover those feelings of kind of inadequacy, I developed a strong sense of perfectionism, you know, and perfectionism, to me is kind of like when you come into a situation and you try to control every facet of that situation in order for you to be the best version of yourself at the detriment, probably, of everyone else around you. You want to be able to be perfect in that moment, you know? And I think the way that manifested itself on set or, you know, within my. Within my work life was that I kind of tried to control a lot of situations, you know, and ultimately ended up, you know, butting heads with a lot of people.

[Sophie Ansari]

We interviewed Rob Lowe, who talked about a similar experience. You know, gorgeous man. And he talked about, as a young kid, feeling like he was pretty and how he was made fun of for that. And I'm curious.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I've never heard that. That's amazing. Yeah, that's very similar.

[Sophie Ansari]

I can imagine that kind of teasing coming from boys if there's another boy who looks pretty. But in my experience, I can't imagine that coming from the girls. In my experience, I. At least at my schools, that would have made someone attractive to a girl.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah, No, I never had a problem with the girls.

[Nava Kavilan]

Okay, Okay. I was curious.

[Sophie Ansari]

What was that like? Like, what Were your experiences around crushes and like first loves at the time?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Wow. You know, I wasn't popular really for any stretch in my, in, in grade school, in middle school, or really in high school. My, my social status sort of kind of went up and down all the time. I also went to three different grade schools, three different elementary schools. That's a lot because, because we moved around in the area a lot, so I felt like I was constantly the new kid. And there's a period of adjustment there when you're the new kid. Sort of everybody, everybody kind of tests you. But yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, I only really had one serious, serious girlfriend in high school. My high school sweetheart. And we ended up going out, you know, well into college.

[Penn Badgley]

Really?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, yeah, for like four, four and a half years total, you mean?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, four and a half years.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Four and a half years.

[Penn Badgley]

That's quite a lot.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Four and a half years. Two years of high school and two years of college.

[Penn Badgley]

We were together at that age. That's sort of like your whole life.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It's your whole life. It's super, super intense. And you know, we had the conversation of like, are we gonna get married and take this to the next level? You know, and ultimately it's just like, it's terrible timing to like, you know, have such a deep relationship. I mean, it sets an amazing standard, you know, that a lot of relationships after that didn't really live up to. But it's, it's, it's, it's pretty rare to, you know, commit and marry your high school sweetheart. It is, but I had that and I'm glad I did.

[Nava Kavilan]

Jesse, who, who are you friends with? Did you like, did you gravitate towards girls and friendships? Were there a few boy, other pretty boys? Like, who was your group?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I had a crew. I had a crew of guys. I don't know. You know, I don't know. We did what we did what young guys do. We rode our bikes around the neighborhood, we played backyard football, we like beat the crap out of each other, you know, I mean, you know, I had a good childhood. It was sort of a two handed thing, you know, I was estranged from my father for a long period of my childhood and I just didn't really get the positive reinforcement that I needed from a male figure in my life. And I was like insanely bullied and picked on when I was a kid. And I think it was just like a one, two punch that really kind of affected, you know, like you previously said, my, my inner narrative.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And How I saw myself.

[Penn Badgley]

So, so by the time. So what, maybe 15, 16 is when you had. When you first you got your modeling agent. Exactly right. And you start going into the city, you start getting gigs, you're traveling abroad. So that feels to me like, I guess there's, there's two ways of thinking of it. Kind of as you said on one hand, you know, as. As you've been saying, like, there's a narrative where this is actually in some ways idyllic. This is in some way not idyllic, but it's, it's, it's, there's.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, it's an opportunity that you would probably build confidence from. But it was a double edged sword. You know, I also kind of got made fun of. Right?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, exactly. And so I. And so I'm just wondering like now the way you reflect on it, like, who was that boy going into the. Going into the city, like for modeling gigs and then having a fly to Milan and like, who. You know what I mean? Like, how. Was he seeing that? Was he thrilled?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah, I was excited. Okay. You know, I definitely had a sense of accomplishment and it fueled my, my self esteem a bit and I started sort of coming into my own a little bit, which ultimately led me to wanting to try acting and breaking out in the industry. That was the beginning of it, really.

[Penn Badgley]

So tell us about that arc. That arc from, you know, maybe like not knowing what was on the horizon to suddenly this thing manifests and comes closer and then you're like, all right, I have real opportunity here. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to travel, I'm gonna get to make money. And then. Cause you were, I guess you're traveling and making money BY like what, 16, 17. Is that like a little bit? Yeah, at least a little bit. Right? So that's a power.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. I was taking the train into the city from Connecticut. I was doing various different modeling jobs. Modeling for like YM and Seventeen magazine. I got a couple different campaigns. I went to Milan one season, ran, walked the runways in Milan for a few high end designers. Just imagine you were running. Everyone else was walking.

[Penn Badgley]

I was running. Ambition.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I really made a statement.

[Penn Badgley]

So where did that start to turn into acting?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, it started turning into acting when I went to nyu.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, but, okay, but you, but you. I mean, did you immediately apply to Tisch?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I only applied to Tisch.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I literally only applied to nyu. And my mom's like, shouldn't you have a backup school? I was like, if I don't get in, I Just won't go to college. And I didn't get in. I actually got into another program at New York University. I did a semester there, and then I transferred into Tisch. Film and Television. Yeah. For writing.

[Sophie Ansari]

And you were at Gallatin, right?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I was at Gallatin, yeah. Whatever that was. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

What does Gallatin do?

[Sophie Ansari]

Gallatin.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Nobody really knows.

[Sophie Ansari]

The School for Individualized Study. And when I toured nyu, because I went to NYU as well, and when I toured it, they would, like, hype it up to be like, you know, you could study whatever you want. You could take classes at any of the NYU studs.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You could just make up your majors.

[Sophie Ansari]

There's people here who have made their majors. Waffles. There's another person who's their major. Just like, crazy things.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. It always seemed like the coolest school to me.

[Penn Badgley]

It does sound.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I always felt like I sort of, you know, got in the back door.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That's totally fair.

[Penn Badgley]

That's kind of like me. I was accepted to USC with the intention to get into the film school because I missed the deadline to apply to the film school. But I was like, I'm gonna get in there. I'm gonna go to USC anyway. I never went. I was accepted to usc, by the way.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's cool.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, I was doing a show as we do, so actually, that's somewhat similar for you. So you dropped out. Let's say we. You left early.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I left early.

[Penn Badgley]

You left early because that is what you did. I mean, you left early because you were like, I'm gonna.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I booked a job.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah, I booked a job.

[Penn Badgley]

So before we get into that, I'm curious about, like, you say acting really wasn't there until you went to Tish. What inspired you to apply then?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I wanted to direct.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, really?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. I loved film.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That's the only thing I knew that I really loved.

[Penn Badgley]

All right.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And so when you got in and you're going, like, what was your experience there? What was the environment like on campus?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It was really cool for you. It was really cool. Yeah, it was really inspiring. There was a lot of people doing a lot of great things. You know, there was this sort of Coca Cola competition where you could make a trailer for. You could make a trailer for a movie that wasn't actually a real movie, but it was actually an advertisement for Coca Cola. It was like, a huge competition in school. Someone really close to me ended up winning that competition. And I was very inspired by that. And I was very inspired by a couple of my professors. I had an acting professor, actually, that, you know, I sort of caught the acting bug in his class. But, you know, I don't know if you, like, remember that scene from the Doors when Jim Morrison, you know, it's crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

I've never seen that.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Oh, it's an amazing movie. Well, there's a scene where Jim Morrison's at USC and he's in a film class, you know, and he sort of shows his short black and white film, and everyone's, like, ripping his film to shreds, and he, like, storms out of the classroom. That's what it was like at nyu. You know, you shoot a short film, specifically in this class called Sight and Sound Film. It was one of the first, you know, classes where you actually shot something. You cut it. You cut the film on a Steenbeck, which is like, you know, an old piece of machinery, where you cut film and put. Put a piece of tape on the film and, like, tamp it down, you know, I mean, it was. And it was an amazing class, you know, and my films were pretty edgy. You know, they were a little violent, you know, some thought a little overly sexualized. And I got those critiques, you know, in that class, and I was like, well, this is kind of fun. You know, it's fun to kind of make something and present it to people and to get such a visceral reaction. And I loved it. I loved every minute of it. And I loved having New York City as my campus.

[Nava Kavilan]

So, Jesse, what's the path from Tish to Passions? By the way, I have to say that I'm such a big fan of Passions that we wrote a book together, and I actually referenced you. And there was, like, a footnote. Like, I've never met Jesse Metcalf. And for some reason, our editor took it out, but now it's no longer true. But I had, like, a parasocial relationship.

[Penn Badgley]

We're technically a meeting. Never. This is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I know.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's a fan meet and greet. I want to know all about Miguel's. But I'm curious. Yeah. How did you land that role?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I just went to an open casting call in New York. My modeling agency actually sent me to an open casting.

[Penn Badgley]

And at this point. Had you been auditioning for, like, a. How long?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I went on one other.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, damn.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Commercial audition before this.

[Penn Badgley]

Whoa.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. So this is, like, your first audition? It was my first audition. I had no idea what I was doing. Casting gave me some pages, some sides.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Sent me to the lobby. I looked them over for maybe 20 minutes. Called me in. I was terrible. But I do remember that the person running the casting had a little sparkle in their eye. You know, I kind of thought, oh, it seems like she sees something in me. But I don't know. And then two, three weeks went by and I didn't hear anything. And then I got a call in my dorm room saying, we want you to come to Los Angeles for a screen test. Okay, put me up at the Hilton at Universal Studios. But I really prepared for this audition, you know, I got an acting coach and I kind of. I nailed it, you know, I mean, I did. I felt really, really good about it. Came back to school at nyu. A couple days went by, the phone rang again. We might need you to come back out to Los Angeles. I'm like, I can't come back out to la. I mean, I'm in college. What are you talking about? We're gonna have someone call you back. Someone calls me back and goes, we'd like to offer you this role. And. Yeah, and I basically kind of like, you know, was an apartment style dorm where.

[Penn Badgley]

So did you unwittingly negotiate yourself into that role? They're like, we want to call you back.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah, I can't go. I know. I played a hard part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Either offer it to me now or I'm off the table. It ended up working out, you know, but. Yeah, and I was. And I was super excited about it, you know, and, you know, of course my mother was like, oh, I always knew you'd be an actor.

[Penn Badgley]

And I was like, oh, no, you didn't.

[Nava Kavilan]

Just Passions is like. I mean, all soaps are crazy, but Passions was like, super unhinged for the time. It was totally insane.

[Penn Badgley]

It was weird for anybody.

[Nava Kavilan]

You were part of, like, the first love triangle I ever saw on tv. I'm just curious. I don't assume that you're a fan of soap operas, but what was your favorite storyline to act on Passions?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I had a storyline where I went to hell.

[Penn Badgley]

What?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Hold on. That's even on the table in my girlfriend's closet.

[Penn Badgley]

What?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

In order to save her because she was possessed and I had. It was like, in hell. It was.

[Penn Badgley]

I love this.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I didn't know Indiana Jones, you know, I was like, going through all these tunnels and I was in like, mining carts and boulders were coming and I was fighting demons. I had no idea. I mean, this show was unreal. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So it's supernatural.

[Nava Kavilan]

Isn't. Forgot about that.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Totally supernatural.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. It basically centers around a small town in New England called Harmony. And there's a witch terrorizing all these families.

[Penn Badgley]

No Harmony to be found.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And she has a doll named Timmy that comes to life.

[Penn Badgley]

So basically they were like, what hasn't been done in soap operas?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Everything was like done was put in this show.

[Nava Kavilan]

Exactly.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow. It must have done like gangbusters too. I mean, it was huge, wasn't it?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It was pretty big. It was kind of like a soap opera cult classic. And it was big with a younger audience. I heard a lot of stories of people kind of running home from school to catch or college students that were like, you know, getting baked and like watching the show.

[Penn Badgley]

Did you see that Miguel went to hell?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah, it was a crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

You went to hell. And you see Michelle's in the house.

[Nava Kavilan]

My mom watched Days of Our Lives and I watched Passion. So it was like they'd be back to back. So she'd be in the living room and then I'd be in the living room.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow, that's so cute. Just imagining 13 year old Nava sitting in front of the TV watching this show. Where Jesse met Kathy.

[Nava Kavilan]

What's gonna happen with Kay and Miguel and Charity?

[Sophie Ansari]

Did you start once you were on Passions? Were you getting recognized around New York? What was your experience of fame while you were on?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, this show shot in Los Angeles, you know, so I relocated to Los Angeles. I had a certain modicum of fame, but I think when you're on soaps, you're in a little bit of a bubble. You're not really in the mainstream just yet. But it was a great training ground for me, you know, five years on that show. Learning the craft of acting, really breaking down a script and memorizing lines. I mean, and it's fast. It is fast.

[Penn Badgley]

Super.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It is fast. So it's kind of trial by fire. So I mean, it was. It was a great hellfire.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, sorry I come in with terrible, like dad joke puns. Cause it's not good. But yeah, see, I shut it down. See what happened. I'm glad you did.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I'm glad you did. So, yeah, after that, I did five years on that show. You know, sort of grew up on that show. And they were all my family. And then I was like, you know, I want to give it a go on primetime and did my first pilot season, you know. Cause there was. When there was a pilot season.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right. Desperate Housewives must have come pretty soon. Was that the first time?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

First pilot season. That was the end of my first pilot season. Damn, dude.

[Penn Badgley]

Right out the gate.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Every time I got Pretty lucky, right? Pretty lucky.

[Penn Badgley]

So. And that was, I think, when you entered into the sphere for me a bit. Cause our mutual friend, somebody you worked with on that show. Sean. Sean Pyfrom.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Sean. Oh, God. He played Marcia Cross, son. Don't know their character names. You did not play Marcia Cross, son. You were the heartthrob of that show. And I mean, from what I recall.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

The first season, anyway.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Yeah. So tell us about the experience. It's the end of pilot season, which, for those who have not participated in pilot season, which is most people listening. It is. It's sort of like the inverse of the playoffs. It's like people who are trying to get jobs are just like balls to the wall all day for like three months. You're auditioning like three times a day.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That's what was cool about it, actually, is that it was really intense.

[Penn Badgley]

It is.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You know, and everything was in person too. I mean, now all these auditions are on tape. I think it's actually a lot. It's a lot harder to book roles on tape, you know, but back then, during pilot season, like you mentioned, there'd be like three auditions a day and nobody was off book. You know, everyone had their script in their hand and sometimes they'd do the same day mix and matches with other actors. It was just, I don't know, there was something exciting about it.

[Penn Badgley]

It's crazy how long ago it was now about it. Yeah, no, very much like, I think I can't believe how much has changed. I mean, I wouldn't know what it's like to be, you know, true. Cutting your teeth for the first time in pilot season now. And I don't. Yeah. But I know that as you say, it's like, it's so remote. It's just so there's like something. Something has been sucked out. And even though I also have a lot of negative recollections or, you know, I can see how there are less than positive influences being in that had on me growing up. There is a thrill. There's a total thrill.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, it was a lot of pressure. There's no doubt about that. The pressure was insane.

[Penn Badgley]

So by the time you're reaching the end of your first pilot season, I.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Was thinking, I'm not gonna get anything. I was thinking, I, you know, I just quit a job where I was making like, you know, mid six figures a year, and I was. And I was having fun, and now I'm unemployed and I haven't booked anything.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And then the end of that pilot season Brought two opportunities. An opportunity to test for a show called Veronica Mars and an opportunity to test for Desperate Housewives. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, interesting.

[Sophie Ansari]

How did you make the decision?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You know, I kind of, I was kind of flying blind, so I just kind of had my reps really make the decision. I mean, they felt like, they felt like Desperate Housewives had more of a chance of being a hit and could possibly have more longevity. And I think that's how we ultimately made the decision. But an insanely nerve wracking process, auditioning for that show. You know, at that time, you had to audition for the network and you had to audition for the studio, and there was 15 people in each audition watching you. Yeah. So it was kind of like it was a pressure cooker. It really was. But ultimately I'm glad that role went my way and, you know, was sort of the start of a career, I guess you could say. You know, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a challenging industry. And I, you know, I'd be lying if I, if I, if I didn't say that. I mean, I believe I've underachieved. You know, I have a lot more to give in this business, you know, as a performer. And, you know, I'm still striving to get a lot of those opportunities. So, you know, it's been a journey. For sure. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Jesse, I'm curious. Sorry. Just to stay on Desperate Housewives for a moment, one is like, I can't. I don't really have a question. But I didn't realize that you and Eva Longoria are only two years apart because you're older than I was.

[Penn Badgley]

When I saw that in the research, I was like, yeah, accurate.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, I mean, that speaks to the point we made earlier that, you know, we both look a lot younger than we actually are, you know, and I really did at that time. I mean, I was 25 years old and I was playing what, a 16, 17 year old.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. Also crazy that they made eva play a 40 year old when she was 27.

[Penn Badgley]

But they're like, we can't have a.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Real 40 year old.

[Penn Badgley]

Equally crazy.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Gorgeous. A gorgeous petite, 27 tops. Guys, come on, NBC, ABC, whatever it is, it's one of the BCs.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. So funny. But I'm curious, Jesse, did that like somehow subliminally impact your relationship with Eva? Like, did she feel older to you? Like, what were your IRL dynamics? I guess is my question.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I feel like she was more poised than me. Even though we Were only two years apart. But no, I mean, we definitely like hung out from time to time and palled around as though we were very much.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, your peers the same age.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

Jesse, it's really clear. You said it just now in this interview, like, how grateful you are for your role on Desperate Housewives and that it launched your career. But then you've also talked about how you maybe felt a little bit caged in by the emphasis that that role had on your looks. And I'm curious how that impacted what roles you were interested in moving forward and how that just. Yeah. How that shaped your career.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, I think after you have a big break, really of any kind in the industry, and a big break can be any type of role in any type of genre, but something that just puts you on the map and makes you somewhat of a name within the business, you have to stay patient as far as waiting for the next piece of material that's gonna elevate your career even further. And for me, patience has never really been a virtue. You know, I'm a very impatient person.

[Nava Kavilan]

I relate.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Like I mentioned, you know, I kind of came from blue collar, sort of middle class at times, a lower middle class background. And like, I wanted to be rich and famous, I wanted to make a lot of money, you know, and I'm like, where's my job? And because of that, because of that impatience, I took probably a string of independent films that didn't really perform. You know, a lot of this industry is based on luck, but a lot of it is also based on strategy, you know, and you have to be really, really strategic after you get that first big break.

[Penn Badgley]

It's true. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Penn Badgley]

Listen folks, true statement here. I have tried a lot of protein bars, right? I mean, I'm not super crazy and unique here, I don't think. I mean, I'm nearly a 40 year old man living in, in the year 2026. Also, my work requires I look a certain way, right? So, you know, yeah, I've had a lot of different protein powders, protein bars, these, these David protein bars. Have you heard of these? David protein? They have a very, I gotta say, elegant wrapper, really good kind of image campaign. When it first came out, I was, I just thought, I remember thinking to myself, like, huh, I suppose I'll have that one day. These are a game changer. I usually use them post workout when I have had the rest, which these days with all my newborns. That's right, you've heard plural There I've got newborn baby boys, twins, in addition to my two other children. I'm not working out as much, but what I do need them for is I just keep them in the, in the pantry for like, you know, I just don't know sometimes when I'm gonna be like, wow, I haven't eaten in five and a half hours and I've got to record a podcast, for instance, or I gotta go pick up the kid from school. Whatever it is, they helped me hit my protein goals, which I still gotta keep, especially with all that sleep depth. You know what I'm talking about. There's no extra sugar, no extra calories, and they taste so, so good for all that. The Gold bar packs a whopping 28 grams of protein at just 150 calories with zero sugar. 75% of its calories come from protein, which gives you the ultimate protein to calorie punch. They got flavors like chocolate chip, cookie dough, red velvet cake batter, cinnamon roll. You prefer something a little more indulgent. The Bronze Bar delivers 20 grams of protein, 150 calories and 0 sugar with a decadent marshmallow base, chocolate coating and layered textures and flavors like cookie dough, caramel, chocolate crunch, double chocolate crunch, and s' mores chocolate cr. How many more chocolate crunches do you want? This is delicious. It's guilt free especially and perfectly balanced. Protein has never tasted this good. So me personally, all that chocolate crunch, sure, fine. I really love the peanut butter chocolate crunch actually. So it is a chocolate crunch, but the peanut butter, mm. I think it's a safe flavor for any protein bar. This one, I remember the first time I had it, I was like, wow. Looking at the nutritional facts, it was hard to believe. So this one has quickly become a staple for me. Just after workout or between meals, whatever. It is delicious. With David, there is a bar for every occasion, post workout, midday snack or bridging lunch and dinner. Every bar is third party tested so you know where the party is. Don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself. David is offering our listeners a special deal. Buy four cartons and get the fifth free when you go to davidprotein.com podcrushed that's davidprotein.com and if you prefer to shop in person, David is available at leading retailers nationwide including Target, Walmart, Kroger, Wegmans and the Vitamin Shop. Just check out their store locator to find a location near you. This sponsor is a special one from my heart to all of the fellow baby parents out There. We all have those moments. Let's put them in quotes, right? Those moments as parents, especially the newborn stage, right? You know, it's 3am or it's 1am or it's. You know what? It doesn't matter what time of day it is. You're half asleep and your baby squirming. You know, the lights are low. You're just trying to get through a diaper change, right? And you want to get back to bed as fast as possible. Or also, you don't know what's. What's inside. Maybe there's been a blowout. Maybe you're gonna have to change the clothes. I mean, that's, you know, that's. That's. That's a standard to somebody who doesn't have children. You're like, oh, my God, what do you do? What do you do? Well, let me tell you, folks, it doesn't matter what time it is. Doesn't matter how tired you are. You gotta change those clothes. You gotta take their clothes off. You gotta get up, and you gotta find more clothes for your baby who's depending on you to stay alive. Doesn't that sound wild? So these are all reasons why I love magnetic me clothing. And this is real. I have them. I use them. Magnetic me makes dressing time, whatever it is, even if it's easy, even if you're having a great day, you're like, you know what? I got this. I have all of it. I'm. I'm the best father in all of this quadrant of Brooklyn, right? Still, it still makes it easier because these outfits use magnets instead of snaps or buttons or zippers. And again, if you've never dealt with a newborn, you're going to think to yourself, doesn't really sound like a big difference to me. Anybody who does have a newborn or a toddler. Those buttons, why are there so many buttons? Where are they all coming from? They're in so many different places. They're so easy to misalign. The zippers. The zippers can pinch the skin of your little one. Or if you wear them strapped close to you, the zippers can really imprint on the. You know what I'm talking about? If you've done this right. So with the magnetic me, you just line up the closures and it's done. It's done in seconds. You're not fighting with any tiny snaps. You're not redoing outfits. There's no unnecessary stress. And that right there is the key to this whole thing. You do not want, you do not need you do not deserve unnecessary stress as a parent of any age right? Truly a lifesaver. Make more time for connection with Magnetic Me. These are a must have to make changing time easier on you and baby Right now new customers can get 15% off site [e-mail] go check out all their cute prints. Don't wait get 15% [e-mail] switching banks.

[Nava Kavilan]

Always felt like such a hassle. Fees, minimum balances, overdrafts. So for a long time I didn't bother. That's why I'm so happy I found Chime. Chime offers a fee free, simpler approach to banking designed for everyday people, not structured around overdraft fees, monthly fees or minimum balance requirements. It's a modern alternative to traditional banks that still rely on penalties as part of their business model. I recently switched to Chime and honestly it's one of the easiest moves I've ever made made. I don't know about you all, but I definitely want my life to be as hassle free as possible and that's something that I'm always looking for. It only took minutes and it really feels like I upgraded to a smarter, fee free way of managing my money. Plus I love their features that are actually useful like tools that help build credit and MyPay, which lets me access some of my paycheck early. With direct deposit I feel more in control of my money and I honestly just wish I'd found Chime sooner. Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com podcrust that is chime.com.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Podcrust Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services A secured Chime Visa credit card and my pay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit range $20 to $500. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertised annual percentage yield with Chime+status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies. No min balance required. Chime card on time Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

[Penn Badgley]

Where does John Tucker Moss dive fit into that? Shall we shall we reflect? Shall we begin talking about that?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Are you kidding me?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, Tucker Brothers that was after Desperate Housewives, right?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It was after. It was after the first season of Desperate Housewives.

[Penn Badgley]

All right, that's right.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Penn Badgley]

I rem. Like the chronology, so. Yeah. You know, you have actually spoken in other podcasts about, for lack of a better term, a spiritual journey, and we love that on this show. And so I think I'm kind of. I don't think I've done this with a lot of guests, but I kind of, I'm. What you've been doing throughout is reflecting kind of like what it was the time for you and how you look back on it now, you know, and when I rewatched John Tucker, I rewatched John Tucker Must Die. I, like, I can't even remember being at the premiere. I don't know, I must have watched it. I must have been at the premiere, surely. But maybe I wasn't. Maybe I was working, I don't know. Cause I had such a small role at the time in it that like, I don't remember watching it. And I was just like. A lot of it felt like it was for the first time.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That's amazing.

[Penn Badgley]

And a lot of it in my stuff, just as it is for, I think mostly anybody who does what we do is so hard to watch my stuff. But I found it interesting to reflect on who I was then. I found it. Well, first of all, what I cringe at in my acting is not so much like, oh, that's not good. What I see is the inability to overcome my self consciousness because now that I have actually grown out of some of it, some. Right. Somewhat successfully, I'm like, oh, my God. That's not me being simply a bad actor or young. That's me just not being allowed to be.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Just watching yourself perform, basically.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. Being acutely aware of everything you're doing while you're doing it.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes. And I really think. I think what I've learned over the years to do is of course, become less self conscious on camera.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Absolutely.

[Penn Badgley]

That's kind of what any actor who can eventually learns to do, either quickly or slowly. And you know, what I can see is a boy man, really painfully insecure. And I remember I of course, wanted to be playing the role that is more centered. I wanted to be playing the sexy whatever, you know, all the, all the, all the embodiments of masculinity and strength and confidence and coolness. You just, you know, I was 17, 18 years old. I wanted to be those things. I had braces at the time and got them off for. For that.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

For that movie.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, man. Yeah. So I. I just remember being. Oh, God. I'm like, oh, thank God. I am past all that. So that was my experience rewatching. I wouldn't have expected you to rewatch this.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Like, you actually. Your performance and your character actually grounded the movie.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, well, that's very kind of you.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

In a lot of ways, because, you know, everything that you were organically, authentically experiencing as Pen, your character would have experienced it.

[Penn Badgley]

That's true.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You know, he was sort of the alternative kid.

[Penn Badgley]

Although my sense is that. Scott.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Scott.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm not talking about his. Let's talk about Scott. My sense of Scott is that he.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Here's what the other Tucker.

[Penn Badgley]

Here's what I would have changed.

[Nava Kavilan]

Exactly.

[Penn Badgley]

I would have changed that he was more comfortable in his skin, that he had accepted his. His. His.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

His role more.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I get that. That's all.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

But I actually loved that that came across. I mean, I don't think it came across as much as maybe you personally think it did, but I think that really worked for the character. I do. I think there's a lot of strength in being honest about not knowing exactly who you are, you know, and not being supremely confident at that age.

[Penn Badgley]

That's true.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. But instead of faking it.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And in a lot of ways, that's what my character was doing.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Overcompensating. Faking it.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So I'm interested now that there's can get real meta here. Like, I guess I'm curious, you know, what was Jesse at the time experiencing and feeling and thinking, you know? Cause I can remember us at the Sutton Place. Sutton. Sutton Place Hotel, right. Yeah, on that. What's that Main street there? Is it Sutton Street? You know what I mean?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Barrage Street.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, wow. Yeah. There's also a story that I've told more than once on this podcast where we were out to. We were out to dinner and I was having sushi for, like, one of the first times ever. I'll tell it in a little bit.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

But were we with Channing Tatum? Were you at a meal?

[Penn Badgley]

No, no.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Channing Tatum was shooting a movie at the exact same time, right?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, but no, it was actually with Chad Michael Murray.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Oh, okay.

[Penn Badgley]

And Sophia.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Oh, okay.

[Penn Badgley]

Because they were together at the time and it was with Ariel and maybe you weren't at that particular. Maybe.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Maybe I wasn't. I might not have been invited to that one, I think.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't know, man.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I don't know. Might not have been invited.

[Penn Badgley]

It was A big long kiss. Oh, well. So what was your, what was, what was your, what was your experience like at the time? And then how do you reflect on it now?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

At the time, I remember having a blast shooting that movie, but at the same time putting a lot of pressure on myself, you know, and that I sort of felt like I might have drove our director a little crazy, Betty Thomas, you know, because I did ask for a lot of extra takes, you know, my perfectionism sort of came out, you know, But I remember having a really, really amazing time, you know, and feeling very secure on set and very supported by our director and also our cast. And I felt like the cast, I mean, look at the success that a lot of the members of the cast of this little teen comedy that should have kind of been, should have, should have come and gone, you know, and not necessarily taken its place in, like, you know, the history of film or any kind of zeitgeist whatsoever. Look at all the success that all the actors have had for this movie. It is funny, too, obviously. It was a pretty special group.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. We've had. Who else have we had on? We had Sophia, I don't know if.

[Nava Kavilan]

We'Ve had anybody else on, and Britney Snow.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, that's right, Britney, of course.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Brittany Snow is absolutely killing it right.

[Penn Badgley]

Now, you know, she is so good in it. She's great. I don't want to say, like, somehow I didn't remember. I mean, yeah, she's really good, man.

[Nava Kavilan]

I have a couple of John Tucker questions for both of you. I also rewatched it and learned that I didn't remember anything accurate about that movie. All of my memories of the movie were like I had written my own version of John Tucker, but one of the things that struck me was honestly that it's so sexist. Like, I, I remember in John Tucker time.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Actually, I was like, wow.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

So I guess my question for you is there's been a lot of buzz about, like, a possible sequel or remake. If it were made today, what could stay and what would have to change? What do you guys think? But this is a question for both of you.

[Penn Badgley]

I think actually John Tucker must die in it, I think, is what I think he will actually die. I think it will become a dark, dramatic A24, right?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, that's actually a good idea. You should write that pen.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I mean, obviously you have to sort.

[Nava Kavilan]

Of.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You know, people have to change and grow, you know, So, I mean, look, there's, there's a script, you know, there's A.

[Penn Badgley]

There's a real script.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

There's a script for John Tucker Must Die Too. It's called John Tucker Must Die Too. I'm probably one of the few people that have read it, you know, and it was, it was over at 20th Century Fox.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Apparently Scott's not in it, despite the fact that like, like all of the main actors from that movie are like, relatively successful. I don't really see it happening.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't. Yeah, I don't either. Well, I think that's where I, When I was watching it, I had heard, maybe I've read. I just heard something that was like more than rumor. Ish. And you're saying that there's a script that's.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Which is actually a rumor, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

So that's news to me. Yeah, so. So I think I was watching it being like. Yeah, I don't really see how. I don't really see how this, I mean, as an artifact of when it was and the effect that it had then and kind of the growth of everybody since it's like. Okay, I get it, but I think it would be hard to bring into now.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, the new script had a whole new cast, a whole new young cast.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And then. And you know, the original characters were almost like the B storyline.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And as you might imagine, John Tucker sort of peaked in high school.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

But he's still at the high school.

[Penn Badgley]

So it's you in a fat suit, he's coaching.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That could be interesting. He's coaching the girls basketball team, you know, and dealing with some similar issues that he was creating, you know, back when he was a high school student with his now daughter.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

They should be. That was the premise. And honestly, it's a great premise and it's kind of the logical direction, but, you know, I mean, obviously everything's getting.

[Nava Kavilan]

Rebooted to get this made.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I don't see this one getting over the finish line, but, I mean, look, a lot of things are getting rebooted right now, and I think, I think I'd be happy to leave John Tucker where it's at. Let him go in the past, you know, I mean, I think we sort of. We overachieved with that one. Anyway, the fact that people are still talking about John Tucker Must die is insane.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it's a bit of a, well, I shouldn't say shock, but, yeah, it definitely, you know, here, I'll tell you.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

This, I think it speaks more than anything to, you know, our director, Betty Thomas, like, just kind of doing a great job just making a really kind of cute, fun movie.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, like you guys said, the cast is absolutely stacked. Crazy. It's like, can you believe, as it goes on the first few minutes, you're like, what an Ashanti. It's so crazy. But I'm curious.

[Penn Badgley]

How about Taylor Kitsch?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

That's right. One line.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's crazy.

[Sophie Ansari]

It is. It is such a crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

Kenny McCarthy.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I did not remember Jenny McCarthy was in that thing. I remembered very little. I was just like, wow, this is happening for the first time.

[Sophie Ansari]

Penn has told. He alluded to it earlier, but he's told a story from behind the scenes of just like from a time when he was having dinner while you guys were shooting that film. But I was curious because the cast is so stacked, if there are any memories, Jesse, that you have from offsetting with anyone in the cast.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I remember this one particular get together where the cast of she's the man and the cast of John Tucker must die.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. We were all in the same hotel.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Got together, like, outside of work. Oh, my gosh. And just. And just kind of being somewhat aware of that moment, like, just kind of.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't think I was there.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

So many young actors together.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's a Y2K fever dream.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. It was like wondering where we'd all end up and, you know. Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I just remember having a really. A really great time and, you know, the energy being. Being really good for the most part.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, totally. So emblematic of. I'll tell you the story that I've told here and we'll just maybe edit out the story because it's. Don't want to hear it again. But I. So, you know, you guys were all a bit. Britney wasn't. But like, those of you who were maybe more confident and secure in where you were. The she's the man cast, everybody was just, you know, I was like, a little bit younger and definitely like, okay, all right. You know, one of my.

[Sophie Ansari]

Just got my braces off.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Just got my braces off, let my.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hair down.

[Penn Badgley]

And I went out to dinner and had like sushi for one of the first times, you know, and it seemed real fancy to me. And so we're all at dinner and I would think you were there, but maybe you weren't. Maybe you weren't. But it was like a big, long table. Everybody. I think Ashanti was there. Like, I do know that Chad Michael Murray and Sophia were there. And. Yeah. And so I. We're all eating and there's Edamame on the table. Right? There's edamame on the table.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And you shot an edamame.

[Penn Badgley]

No. So I had never seen edamame before.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Cause you're like, what is this? And the whole time, I'm just kind of like. You put the whole thing in your mouth and chewed it up.

[Penn Badgley]

No. So here's what I did after, like, halfway through the meal, I find I'm like, I'm gonna have some. And I reach in and I start to like. And I'm just like, what the fuck is this? And I realized. That's when I realized this has already been in somebody's mouth. So I had taken one of the shell. I didn't realize, like, so, you know, there was no more item on my left. It was just the shells. And so I was just, like, gnawing on something that had been in somebody else's mouth. And I remember being sad.

[Nava Kavilan]

Michael Murray's mouth. Right. Specifically.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. And I remember just being like, you idiot, you. You young, dumb, uncultured nerd. And I just, like, you know, just my whole face was so red. I just put it back and I was like, yeah, okay, that's. So that. That. That was like my vibe. Vibe there. I'm just. The whole time, I'm just definitely, you know, a bit. A bit on the. A bit on the. The insecure side.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

But it's just.

[Penn Badgley]

It's just a funny memory I have. Yeah. Wow. I really didn't know I was.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I think we can put the John Tucker days to bed after that story. That. That just encapsulates the whole experience right there.

[Sophie Ansari]

Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[Nava Kavilan]

Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. They've got the wardrobe staples you're looking for with quality that's made to last. Think 100% organic cotton sweaters. Premium denim made with stretch for all day. Comfort luxe cotton cashmere blends perfect for the changing seasons. Quince uses the highest quality materials luxury, like 100% European linen and organic cotton. Everything is thoughtfully designed. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you're not paying extra for the brand markup. This winter, I have had a uniform, and it's been the Quince Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweater. Personally, I love it in the varsity red color paired with straight leg jeans. I've just been wearing this over and over again, and I have to say, that the simplicity, like knowing exactly what to reach for, has just made my life so easy. And I just feel so elegant. This crew neck is so gorgeous, so luxe. The red is such a vibrant hue. You can thank me later. Did I mention it's only $50? I can't even wrap my mind around that. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com podkush for free shipping on your order and 365 day return returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com podcrust to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com podcrust Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And relationship classes. Let's fix that.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm Shan, an ASEX certified sex educator with a master's in psych.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And on my podcast Lovers by Shannon, we make learning about love as mind.

[Penn Badgley]

Blowing as making it.

[Nava Kavilan]

Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story. Then we uncover the lesson for all of us.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Watch Lovers by Shan from Lemonada Media.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

On YouTube or listen wherever you like your podcast.

[Nava Kavilan]

Jesse this is such a sharp left turn. But we Penn mentioned this. You know, you have talked openly about being on, on a spiritual journey. I found the way that you talk about it really refreshing. I wanted to hear more. And so one of the things you mentioned, I think this was maybe two years ago. You talked really openly about sort of a turning point in your life at 40, what you described as like a rock bottom. And it was interesting because you said that you had like the, you know, you were living in this like, amazing high rise in Miami. You had the social status, the money, the hot girlfriend. You had like everything that, that a certain version of success could deliver. But you felt so empty. And I'm curious, I have a lot of questions about it. But one question is like, what did that version of success promise you that it wasn't able to deliver? Like, why did you feel empty having achieved all of those things?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, money, achievement, achievement, I think can really feed your soul. But material things, money, property, cars, you know, that doesn't feed you. That doesn't sustain you. But yeah, I definitely had a rock bottom in my early 40s midlife crisis, if you will, that, you know, lasted, lasted a few years. Honestly, you know, I feel like over the past few years I've really just gotten at it. I think just everything came so quickly and so easily to me in my 20s and 30s that I didn't necessarily appreciate it, you know, and I Didn't. I became a little superficial, I think, and I wasn't really doing the things that were nourishing my soul, and I needed to reconnect spiritually. I mean, you have to have a spiritual center in your life, otherwise you can really sort of spin out of control and kind of lose yourself, you know, and you reach a point where you don't even really know what you're chasing or who you are, what your life's really about, you know, and you're kind of left with nothing. You know, you sort of feel like after everything you've done or supposedly achieved, that your life doesn't really have a whole lot of meaning, you know? And I think at this stage in my life, I'm really about investing more in the people closest to me and, you know, just sort of, like, building out those relationships. And I don't really have a lot of tolerance and a lot of patience for, you know, fast friends or, you know, surface relationships. I mean, look, you sort of. I'm still in this crazy industry, and you still have to play the game, you know, But I try to do it with as much authenticity as possible, like I mentioned before, and I just. I try to value people a lot more, you know, than I. Than I once did, you know. You know, in the early days of my career, you know, in my late 20s and early 30s, you know, I just kind of thought I was, like, the epicenter of the universe, and I thought, you know, the success that I was experiencing then would last forever, you know, And I think. I think it's important that. That I sort of hit a rock bottom and had a. Had a bit of a lull in my career and sort of lost myself and sort of burned it all down so that I could build it back, but build it back better, you know, with just more. More. More authenticity, more heart, more love. You know, I just. Yeah. I mean, you know, there was a period there where I just really didn't know what it all meant, you know, And I think we're all on that journey trying to figure out who we are and why we matter. I mean, you know, nothing sort of takes the emphasis off of yourself, like parenthood, I would imagine. You know, before we started this interview, Penn was talking to me about, you know, just how he constantly has a child in his arm.

[Sophie Ansari]

One million children.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And for anybody who's listening, who doesn't know, even though. Though I probably talk about it all the time now. I have newborn twins. I have newborn twins, which brings me to four boys, which is Just, you know, it's like, it's.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I'm. Honestly, I'm blown away and just like, me, too. And just, like, super impressed. And I can't imagine how, you know, being a father of four now has changed you.

[Penn Badgley]

Changing?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, what I was saying. What I was saying there to Jesse before, and actually, you know, I've probably been saying to you, Neva and Sophie, it's like, I am in real. So right now, the twins are. Are four and a half months old. You know, so that's early days. Got a whole life ahead of them, a whole life of parenting. Like these. They're gonna become men, and I am their father. You know, that is. That's wild.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's the craziest part of parenthood is like, oh, I am their mother.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. I am archetyped, the mother.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm the only mother.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. You know. You know what I say? Whatever. Anybody's relationship to God and government, it started with their parents, you know, like, literally. I'm not saying God and government are the same thing. What I'm saying is what you think about God and what you think about government, the first times you encounter those archetypes are with your parents, you know, and that's like, they're the first relationships. And I would say all of us are in some ways, still trying to escape aspects of our parents, aspects of our relationships with our parents, whereas trying. Trying to prepare. We're trying to heal, we're trying to recover, we're trying to deepen. You know, I mean, your relationship with your parents is some part of your relationship with the world. And I think. And I think what I have realized. So my stepson, my first son, the first boy whose care was, at least in some part, my responsibility. He's now 16, almost 17. That's its own stage. That's its own very important stage. Then. My first biological son is 5, and he's now the age. He's exactly the age when I met my stepson. So I'm now. So now I have, like, the kind of download, like, here's what I missed, and here's, you know, how I now know I would do that better. And then it's like. So you just keep. It's. Man, it's deep. It's crazy. And especially the fact that they're all boys.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Oh, yeah, that's.

[Penn Badgley]

And, you know, my relationship with my father, like, that's a memoir. You have to wait till both of us. Both of us.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Can we get the logline? You know, you know, I. I would Imagine you have a pretty good relationship.

[Penn Badgley]

With your father, you know, in some essential way, Was he there in some essential way, I could say yes to both of those things, the outward semblance, however, most difficult aspect of my life, undoubtedly, yeah. And I'm still working through that in real time, so. Real time that. Because I have four boys, I mean, I'm telling you, like, oh, it's. It's its own. It's its own podcast, it's its own book, and, you know, it's not that I am unwilling to go there, but it's so real time right now, Like, I'll just give you a little snapshot. You were mentioning, you know, you said a moment ago, like, you're impressed. Well, you're not seeing what it's like on the ground. It's, It's.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I mean, I'm impressed by. I'm sure it's chaos, and I'm sure it's challenging, you know, and just to take that on, you know, I mean, I'm not even. I'm not even necessarily ready to take that on or brave enough to take that on. Nobody's ever really ready or.

[Penn Badgley]

Nobody's ready or brave enough. You know, what I think it is, is, like, for me, so you asked about my father, my. And I don't know that we'll keep any of this because, like, I don't know how much we want to make it about me and this, but, but, but what I think I'm learning is, like, you know, my parents had no idea what they were doing, None. And I don't mean in raising a child, I mean in being together, I mean in relationship. My parents both come from such a sort of vacuum of family that they had no idea what it meant to sustain a relationship. They had no idea that they shouldn't have gotten together. No, that's a toxic relationship. From day one, they were making poor choices. My mom had this biological imperative at nearly 40, which was ancient in the 80s, you know, for a woman, woman. And my dad was like, you know, like, that's not. That's, you know, I can be grateful to their union to some degree, because I exist, Right? But, like, they taught me zero about what it really means to be in relationship, Zero. And so then what I had to learn in my life, you know, painfully, was, like, what that means to be in a relationship. And it started out poor. My relationship, actually, the one I was in at the time when we were shooting John Tucker Must Die, was a very, very, very burdened relationship with a girl who I Actually wrote about this in our book. Like, we have a book. She, at 32 years old, drank herself to death, which, you know, her alcoholism was starting when we were teens, when we were together, and we were together for, like, four or five years. I thought it was interesting that you said your first relationship, you know, was like one that kind of set the bar really high. And then, you know, it sounds like you were trying to come back around to that, because that's actually amazing that, you know, talking about parenthood and fatherhood, the father figures you had and didn't have in your life. I can imagine that, that relationship for you, that healthy, good one.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It was very meaningful.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I would think so.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah, it really was.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Relationships are tough. I mean, they are. You know, I'm only now figuring them out.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And you can only do it in a relationship, I think, too, is like, you can. You talk. People talk about doing the work.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

There's just so many levels to it, you know, to intimacy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And then, so parenthood, I think what it does. Parenthood shows you. You know, there's a quote from many people. It's been kind of like some brilliant people have said it, some less brilliant people have said it, but it's something like when somebody tells you who they are, believe them. The one person in the world who can't do that is a parent. A parent can't tell a child who they are. A child tells the parent who the parent is. A child reflects that back in a way that no other relationship in the world can or should, and you don't. There are aspects of you that you aren't forced to contend with until you're a parent. And then that's fascinating. Right. And then you're. And then what you're contending with is like, why am I this way? Well, there are some aspects to. So why are my parents the way that they were? Why? You know, and then you start getting into this thing that you actually can't overcome without a spiritual center, because there's nothing that can actually heal all of that. There's nothing that can, like, explain all of it. Most of it is lost to, you know, unless your parents, like, wrote memoirs, there's. You can't.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Information you can't have. Have, like, you grow immensely from becoming a parent. It's.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes, that's my experience.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah. Should probably do that.

[Nava Kavilan]

Or get, like, a really needy dog. I've heard the same exact thing. Jesse. I. I want to stay on this train of spirituality, and I'm going to share Something that I know some people are really going to dislike. So I don't know if we're going to keep it or not.

[Penn Badgley]

Is it about astrology?

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm going to own it. No, I'm going to own it if we keep it bit, which is because I feel like atheists and agnostics are really bold and, like, implying that religious people are stupid. So this is what I'm gonna say. I had heard a few days ago, someone was talking about how she had, like, drifted away from spirituality, grew up religious, whatever, but she realized that her mind was becoming dark. Like, she was, like, really, like, allowing dark thoughts to, like, overtake her thinking. And her heart was becoming, like, a little bit bitter. And her journey back to spirituality was actually feeling of, like, feeling like it's a social responsibility, which I really don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. For her, it was, like, reckless to move away from it because it allowed her mind to be overtaken, in a sense, by, like, dark thoughts and. And to become bitter. And there's no way that that stays, like, contained within you. That definitely, like, we reverberate that out. So the thing that I was just going to say is, like, I've. I've never thought of it that way, but I think it's really cool to think about spirituality as, like, a social responsibility that we have, like a social responsibility to protect our thoughts.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Or, you know, it's a. It's a. It is, It's. It's a practice. It starts there. You know, you have to incorporate it into your daily life. If you don't do it, doesn't just, like, magically happen for sure.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

How do you incorporate it?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. What caused you to turn to it and how did you incorporate it?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Depression. Yeah. Caused me to turn to it. I mean, when you hit a low point in your life, you know, you're not generally, like, you know, hitting your knees and praying to God when everything's going great, you know, so. But I felt like I needed to connect spiritually. I just. I knew that's what I was missing. I knew that my life was devoid of any, like, real connection to God. And, you know, I was losing my sense of joy, you know, my sense of gratitude, my sense of optimism. I can understand, you know, like, the story you just recounted about that friend of yours, you know, kind of, like falling prey to dark thoughts. I mean, you know, if you don't. If you don't. If you don't reconnect to something, if you don't connect to something greater than yourself, you know, and you're. You're the ultimate driver in your life. And then everything goes wrong. It's like, where do you turn? You know, like, you made yourself God, you made yourself, you know, the highest being. And then if you fail, like, what do you do? Just knock yourself off, you know, I mean, you have to turn to some higher power, you know, and that's that. I guess that's just ultimately the reason why I believe in God, you know, whatever that means for people. I know what it means to me. But you gotta have some spiritual center. You gotta have a power greater than yourself that exists in your life.

[Penn Badgley]

Did you grow up with any kind of religious orientation?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

No. And it was interesting to hear what you just said. No, I didn't grow up with any religion, really. You know, I remember when I was young, maybe like 11 years old, I came home and a girl in the neighborhood had asked me if I had been saved. And I was like, what are you talking about? What does it mean to be saved?

[Penn Badgley]

Save myself from you?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Please.

[Penn Badgley]

That's the way I felt about that question.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Exactly. Years ago, you know, and she explained to me that if you haven't been, you know, saved.

[Penn Badgley]

Have I not heard of Jesus?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

All this time it is 1999.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

And I have not heard of Jesus.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I didn't really know much about religion at a young age, but that. That you were like instantly going to hell, you know, if you weren't saved, you know. So I ran home and I was like, I need to get saved immediately, you know. And so my mother took. Took me to church, like, enrolled me in. Oh, really? Like a, like a catechism class, like an after school class. And I literally went there once and I was like, I'm good, you know, Like, I just. I never want to go back. I'm good if I'm not saved, I don't care.

[Penn Badgley]

But it's interesting that you had an initial response which was like, fear in.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

This initial response was fear.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

The critical.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Yes. It was self preservation, you know, But I mean, you know, through the course of my life, through the experiences that I've had in my life, life, I've found God. I found spirituality. It's not something that was really imparted to me. It was something that I found out of, out of necessity.

[Nava Kavilan]

Jesse, you've also talked about letting go of, like, a childhood script. And that's kind of. I think the first question that I asked you was like, what was that inner script? And you talked about, like, One of the benefits of spirituality being that it allows you to let go of like a prior version of yourself or a story of yourself, which is really, I think, something that a lot of us need to hear and grapple with because we probably have stories of ourselves that we need to let go of. And I'm curious, like, for you, what has allowed you to enter into like an adult story of yourself and what is that story?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You know, I think I just got really sick of living with this wounded little boy inside of me, you know, and he still rears his ugly head every once in a while, you know, in my, you know, the people closest to me have to deal with that and listen to it, you know, and I'm sure annoyed by it at times, you know, some of the things that come out of this 47 year old's mouth. But, and this may sound a little pedantic, but a lot of the roles that I've played, I've been able to sort of exercise some of my demons, if you will, some of like the negative thoughts that I have about myself. You know, Recently I just played a father, you know, in a little like rom com movie that's coming out, you know, in the summer. And I really fell in love with this kid that was playing my son.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, how old, how old was he?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

He was 12.

[Penn Badgley]

Ah, that's.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

And he had the best personality. He was such a talented actor. He was so funny and clever. He was so kind and I, you know, I don't know, pouring a bunch of love into just like that on set relationship and kind of like working up the subtext of, you know, the subtext of the story and building that relationship and playing that. I don't really, it just really warmed my heart, you know, and kind of opened me up to the possibility of fatherhood. But it's moments like that that I could support this sort of a young actor and encourage him and tell him, wow, you were really great in that scene. And I still stay in touch with him now and you know, I just like did some ADR for the movie and I thought the movie was really good and I thought he was really good. And I reached out to him and his dad and I said, you're gonna be really happy with the movie. There's some really great scenes here. Max did some really amazing work and like, it feels good to give a young man like positive reinforcement like that, maybe like the type of positive reinforcement that I wished I had as a child or I didn't as a child. And I think that's the best part maybe about becoming a parent is that you kind of get to be the parent that maybe you wished you had. You know, you can heal those wounds by, you know, showing up for your own child and breaking that generational trauma.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, definitely. That's very true. I also wonder for those who have less of a. I think there's two sides to that. I think it's like that's the part. Well, I'm not sure how to articulate it, but it's like, what about for those who don't have the like father sized hole to fill? Some don't. Some, some actually don't. And apparently it's not the two of us, but it's some.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I tell you what, that father size hole really fuels your ambition, that's for sure. I mean, you know. Yeah. A lot of the people that had fathers that told them that they could do no wrong and they were the best thing ever, they didn't amount to much failures.

[Penn Badgley]

So shout out to the fathers out there, be careful how much you're loving your children. Keep it real. Nobody's gonna know the name of my children, that's for sure. Okay, well, this is actually a natural segue to our last question, which we can.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, no, no, wait, wait. We were gonna talk about Jesse's skincare brand.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Right. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Can't forget that he's got amazing skin.

[Penn Badgley]

What do you, what do you love.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Jesse?

[Nava Kavilan]

How do you pronounce it? We'll ask the question, but tell us.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

How to pronounce it. It's, it's pronounced neutral, spelled phonetically. Nutrl Skin. We're a direct to consumer brand.

[Penn Badgley]

What does that mean?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

It means we're not in any brick and mortar stores. You just order it on the website. We're also on Amazon.

[Penn Badgley]

So you're on line.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You're saying we're online. Okay, we're online, yes. And I named it neutral because it's a gender neutral line. I also like the idea of it maybe being like carbon neutral because it's a very clean line. You know, there's no additives, no silicones, no parabens, no fragrances. And we're getting a really, really great response. We've been lucky enough to be on like Good Morning America and the View and the line's really taken off and it's kind of sort of my first foray into being an entrepreneur and I'm really enjoying the process. I mean, it's, it's laborsome, you know, it's, it's Cost intensive. I've, you know, sort of financed the whole brand. I haven't brought in any outside investment, but it's, it's going well so far. We just, we just launched really, in, in June.

[Nava Kavilan]

What inspired you to go into skincare?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Well, you know, going back to my adolescence, I had acne, you know, as, as an adolescent. And it also had kind of a reoccurrence of acne in my early 20s and when I, when I got into the business, you know, wearing all the makeup and stuff like that, that and overcame that and, you know, people were kind of always telling me I had great skin and you know, like, we touched on saying I looked considerably younger than I actually am and were asking about my skincare routine on the red carpet. I was like, you know, maybe this is like a natural extension of my brand and some, a place where I could have some success. You know, there's not a lot of heterosexual guys pushing skin care. So I was like, you know, maybe this is my lane. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Straight is the new queer.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Hell yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Soundbite.

[Nava Kavilan]

For listeners.

[Penn Badgley]

White men who are famous and wealthy. We're the new. What is this?

[Nava Kavilan]

Marginalized.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm not even going to go on. That's too good.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

We should just end it right there.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, we should.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Mic drop.

[Penn Badgley]

We really, we should have ended it before we got there. Okay. No, I do. So this, we were coming naturally back to the age of 12 actually, because, you know, you played a father. Yeah. And you had this interesting experience. So I feel like you might be unwittingly kind of prepped for this last question in a way that, I don't know, might be. Hopefully it's therapeutic and for us all, cathartic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you could go back to 12 year old Jesse, what would you say or do if anything?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Trust yourself. It's all gonna be okay. Yeah. I was constantly in survival mode when I was a kid, when I was an adolescent, when I was a teenager, even early days in the business, it was constant fight or flight, you know, and only now and at the ripe Age of 47Am I finally kind of starting to relax.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I feel the same. No, seriously, really? Yeah. That's beautiful, man. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

Dude, thank you, man.

[Penn Badgley]

It was really good to see you after all.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

So good to see you, Jesse. So good to see you. You got it.

[Penn Badgley]

My pleasure.

[Nava Kavilan]

So nice to meet you.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

You too.

[Sophie Ansari]

You can check out Jesse's skincare line, Neutral Skin at Neutral Natural Skin online. That's N U T R l skin. You can also follow him online at Real Jessie Metcalfe podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely adventure free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your Prime Members membership. Okay, that's all.

[Nava Kavilan]

Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows.

[Nava Kavilan]

Like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A smoother, uninterrupted listening experience experience.

[Nava Kavilan]

Just head to any Lemonada show, feed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

On Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make.

[Nava Kavilan]

Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lemonada Premium, are you looking for ways.

[Jesse Metcalfe]

To make your everyday life happier, healthier.

[Nava Kavilan]

More productive, and more creative?

[Jesse Metcalfe]

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig.

[Nava Kavilan]

Is my sister Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer and Hollywood.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.