Penn Badgley (2:05)

Do you think that he really thought you'd be better in film or just.

Nava Kavlan (2:08)

Was he snuffing at the competition?

Sophie Ansari (2:09)

I think he was like, you're not. You don't have it. You haven't got the spark. No, but, yeah, I have had, like, family members at distinct times in my life. Like, take me aside and be like, you're not good at this thing.

Nava Kavlan (2:23)

And this feels like a very Retstein. Anyway, we're not gonna psychoanalyze your family, but I will say as part of the TikTok trifecta that I think Colin might have been wrong. I think you might have had, I mean, you're good at film, but you might have had it in you to also be good at acting.

Sophie Ansari (2:37)

I don't know. Yeah, I was. You know, it was taken from me.

Nava Kavlan (2:41)

It was taken from you.

Penn Badgley (2:42)

What a tragedy. Well, you know who it wasn't taken from is today's guest. We have the Tony Award winning actor, Jesse Tyler Ferguson, who you probably know, you might know, you surely know from his role as Mitchell on the iconic sitcom Modern Family. He's also been on Broadway, as I said, and productions like Fully Committed and Take Me Out. Jesse is not just an actor, he is also a podcaster, a fellow podcaster, now a friend of the pod. His podcast is called Dinners on Me where he, he takes people out to dinner. Big name friends usually like big name restaurants. And I'm jealous. I don't know why we didn't do that. I don't know. I don't know where this 12 year old thing came from. And they don't, they don't set up cameras. They sit at a restaurant, guys, that's paid for. I'm sure it's paid for. And they get to eat. Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, today he is on our podcast where we did not eat. There are no chef cooked meals or wine. I was a bit worried he might storm out in a rage. I thought might he demand a duck confit or une stick out? You'll have to stick around. Just do find out.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (4:00)

I'm Hasan Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy? Outrageous. Parenting expert Dr. Becky. How do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?

Nava Kavlan (4:26)

It's a good question.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (4:27)

Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Penn Badgley (4:32)

Hi everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie O'Donnell and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts. Let's just start with a snapshot of Jesse at 12. You know, what was your day to day like at school, at home?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (5:14)

Oh, I was very busy, Very busy. I was a mover and a shaker. No, I was a very, very shy kid. I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which is a terrible place to raise a redhead.

Nava Kavlan (5:30)

Honestly.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (5:31)

Very hot and sunny, extraordinarily. And I was, you know, I was a very, very shy, quiet kid. And, you know, when I was around age 11, I was. My day to day was sort of just trying to survive the day and get through the day. And, you know, I was always so appreciative, appreciative of the kids who would just leave me alone because I had a group of people who are my, you know, regular bullies. But I. I considered the people who would just, like, leave me alone, even though they weren't my friends. I was like, oh, at least these people are just leaving me alone. So that was my standard. I had my bullies and then the people that would leave me alone. And I enjoyed the people who left me alone. That's just how I survived day to day. It's something that I look back upon and I think is character building, but it's also something that I wish I didn't have to go through. You know, it was not an easy childhood for me.

Penn Badgley (6:32)

So, I mean, at this point, it sounds like, or at least it seems like in our research that you were pretty deeply embedded in theater. You were a theater kid, right?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (6:41)

Yeah, yeah. I went to a Catholic school, and there wasn't a great theater program. I don't know why being a Catholic school means it didn't have a good theater program, but they were very invested in their sports department, and there was nothing in, like, the fine arts. So my mom enrolled me in the Albuquerque Children's Theater. You did children's theater too, right, Penn?

Penn Badgley (7:01)

I did, yeah. You know, I often say that I started at 12, but the truth is I started at 8. I started at 8 because I moved to Washington State and then I started.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (7:09)

Theater in Seattle, right?

Penn Badgley (7:11)

Yep. Yeah, Seattle Children's Theater, which is, you know, probably comparable.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (7:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I started. I thought I started in a theater program that was an extracurricular theater program around the age of eight. And my mom took me to go see one of the shows. And I remember sitting in the theater and being so enthralled with what was happening in front of me on stage, and I didn't want to be in the audience seats. I wanted to be on the other side of the stage lights and actually be doing that thing. And so when I told my mom that, she was just shocked because I was such a shy kid. I was such an introvert. So I think she really, you know, supported that because it was an outlet for me. And it was the first time that I sort of expressed interest in something on my own. And I wasn't just sort of following the. The plan of, like, you know, the extracurricular stuff that my parents had enrolled me in. And it really surprised them, but I really took to it, and I found the people that felt like they understood me and those groups of people, you know, the wacky theater kids, and none of the people that I went to school with were in these programs. So it was like I had a fresh start there, and I had friends for the first time. But it was hard because I sort of lived a double life. I was like, you know, this fun kid at the theater school. And then, like, you know, back in my grade school, I was, you know, the. The pariah again.

Sophie Ansari (8:33)

So you talked about how at school you were grateful for this group of kids who would just leave you alone. Like, that's. That was your bar. And I'm wondering if you had somebody to talk to about that feeling or did you keep it internal?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (8:49)

You know, it's. It's funny because as I've been doing my own podcast, I've. When I hear people's stories, I sometimes share parts of my life that I've never shared before. My mom has been listening. Well, my mom passed away in November, but when she. She was listening. Thank you. Thank you. She was listening to the podcast every week when she was, you know, still with us. And she. She would say things like, oh, I didn't know that this was going on. Like, I didn't know things were so hard for you. Or if she did know that they were hard for me, she didn't know that they affected me in the way that they did. And that's all to say that I don't think I had a lot of people to open up to. I didn't feel safe around a lot of people. And also, I didn't want to share those parts of. With this newfound theater community because I didn't feel like. I just didn't feel safe exposing that part of me. Like, I was being accepted by these group. Like, why? Like, you know, shake something up that's. That's working fine. It did get to a point where, like, when I was in grade school, I was bullied bad enough. And I'm laughing just because some of the things that they did to me are just like so horrified. Like, wow, you. You all were creative and awful. But I remember like, being one of the worst. I don't know why it makes me laugh, but one of the worst things that happened to me is I was at a. I was at our recess, the lunch recess, and a bunch of kids grabbed me and pinned my jacket. I had like, you know, buttons like those, like heavy duty winter coat buttons. They pinned the ones that were on my hood to a chain link fence and then pinned my arms as well, my. My cuffs to a chain link fence. And then the bell rang for when to go in and they left me. And I was pinned to this chain link fence right next to the eighth grade classroom. And I was like in sixth grade at this time. And so all these older kids were like, laughing at me through these windows right outside their door. And a teacher had to come and like, unsnap me and rescue me. I was like being crucified on a.

Nava Kavlan (10:53)

Chain, that's like, legitimately. That's like horrifying. Bullying.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (10:56)

Yeah, horrifying. And so at the end of my seventh grade year when those, those instances started when the kids got more creative and I thought, okay, this could get dangerous, I did sort of tell my parents, like, I don't know if I feel safe at this school. And they transferred me to another school that I went to for a year. And then when I started in high school in my freshman year, I went to another Catholic school. And a lot of the kids that. It was like the great melting pot because all the, like, the tiny little schools would end up at this private school. And so a lot of these, my former bullies who had escaped from for a year, you know, came back. But at that point I sort of had a respite away from them. And it was a larger pool of kids. And I sort of. I felt like it was a bit of a new beginning for me. But it was, it was definitely like year, year to year. I was like, okay, how am I going to get through this hour, this day, this year? And it was, it was rough.

Penn Badgley (11:50)

It does sound.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (11:51)

It.

Penn Badgley (11:51)

I mean, something about. I haven't, I don't think I've heard from a guest recently. I mean, we've had obviously a lot of bullying stories on here. And it's. And it's, it is, It's a strange duality. Whereas adults, we can, and I think in some way should laugh at it. But then at the same time, when you tell that story, I mean, to be Honest. Part of me just wants to like cry and hold that boy. That's so, it's such, that's like, that's a kind of brutality and just the isolation that inculcates in anybody. So I just want to say I'm sorry and I'm sorry and like for.

Nava Kavlan (12:29)

A child to go through that is like, really.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (12:32)

You're very kind. I, you know, I'm a parent now, so like I have a four and a half year old, a two year old, and I just think about how I would feel if that happened to either one of them. I mean, they're, they're too young to be in that place where kids are bullying them. But you know, I get nervous for what happens, what's going to happen for them. And I really am so proud when I see my son Beckett, my four and a half year old, stand up for, for other kids. You know, we're ingraining that in him and it's really. I was like, oh, don't ever lose that.

Penn Badgley (13:02)

I know for me, being on set, whether it's a play, whatever, you know, it's a place where part of me has always been able to come to life that wasn't able to anywhere else. You know, you were saying a moment ago that in a way you didn't want to tell the people you were in doing theater with because you had friends and they were accepting you. But do you also think that maybe you were just in a way like allowed to come to life differently and that you were a little bit different?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (13:32)

Yes. No. You, you really. I mean, that's exactly it, Pen. I mean, like I had, for the first time I felt like I was finding myself and I was able to just relax and be a kid and explore. And you know, of course like in theater school you're, it's all about exploration, games and like pretend to be the color red. And now you're a red dinosaur. Now like you're slow walking red dinosaur. Yeah, it's all just about like really pushing the limits of who you are. And I really, I thrived in that. And I'm so grateful that I found theater. And it's why even today theater is like my, my number one love. And I'm so grateful that. Yeah, yeah, I'm a changed person. Even like even now, having now done television and film and every time I get to go back and do a play and get to be in that rehearsal space, I just feel like I can exhale a little bit and I feel comfortable and I feel like I'm My fully formed version of me.

Penn Badgley (14:33)

That's beautiful.

Sophie Ansari (14:34)

Did you have any experiences with crushes at your theater program?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (14:41)

Not really. I was a pretty sexless child. No, I didn't really. I had a. A romantic interest in this girl Adriana, but it was sort of like, rot in. Like, it was. It was very fraught. It was very. It was very, like, rooted in, like, musical theater romance. Like, we. Like, we have a love like Marius and Cosette and Les Miserables. Like, we have a love like the Phantom of the Opera and Christine. We have a love like. You know, it's just like. It was very dramatic and just very, like, I would. I would sneak out of the house sometimes and just, like, go to her window and, like. Like, I'd throw a little pebble at the window, and she'd come out, which is like. But then, like, we would just, like, talk in her backyard, you know? But it was like, the act of, like, that sort of romantic gesture, like, coming to her in the middle of the night, you know, like Romeo and Juliet. It was all like. You know, it's. I had. That was my first crush. But it didn't. It felt very. Very performative and not romantic at all. But there was something really sweet about that friendship and, you know, that, like, secret that we had. Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (15:55)

That's so cute.

Nava Kavlan (15:56)

That's really sweet. So, Jesse, you obviously have talked about your bullying experiences, but do you have any, like, sweet, kind of more on the awkward side, embarrassing memories?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (16:06)

Oh, God, yes. I mean, I've talked about this before, and you might have even seen it in my research, but I was caught stealing porn when I was a very.

Nava Kavlan (16:13)

I didn't come across.

Penn Badgley (16:14)

No, I didn't see that.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (16:16)

Oh, interesting. I feel like that's the story that everyone always asks about, but I. I. You know, I. I'm. I'm a gay person, and I was. I was.

Penn Badgley (16:24)

You know. That did not turn up in our research.

Nava Kavlan (16:26)

I'm gonna have to.

Penn Badgley (16:27)

I'm gonna have to change.

Nava Kavlan (16:28)

Hire the researcher.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (16:30)

Yeah. I'm so sorry. I have the wrong person's research in front of me. We thought we were talking to George Clooney. I. Yeah, I was. I was. I was. I am gay, and I. When I was a kid, I was looking for. You know, we didn't have the Internet have accessibility that we do now, but I was curious, and so I. The only place I knew where I. To sort of even explore that, because I didn't have a lot of friends to talk to about it, really. I know what I felt Comfortable with. And I certainly didn't know any other gay kids at the time, but I would look at magazines. I would go to Hastings Books, Hastings Music and Books in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and look at. You know, I'd sneak the porn into, like, another section of the. The bookstore and, like, look at it. And then I started to be like, well, I think to get this home, because I need to take a better look at this. And so I would. I would slip it under my shirt, and I would. You know, I very successfully stole quite a bit of material in Hastings Books, and. And then one time, I. I don't know if they were on to me or if they were watching me on the cameras, but. Or if they finally fixed the metal detector. I don't know what happened, but the alarm went off when I left the store, and I got stopped. And, you know, they're like, well, do you have anything in your bag that maybe forgot to purchase? And I just really shamefully, like, through tears, lifted up my shirt and exposed, like, these magazines tucked into my waistband. And it was mortifying also, because I called my parents and, you know, showed them the nature of the material that I had stolen. And that was also, you know, I think that they knew that I was gay. But it was sort of the first time that. Yeah, that we were confronted with, you know, a literal dick. And I think I was also kind of confusing them because that wasn't all just gay pornography. It was, like, straight as well. I was like, you know, I'm an equal opportunist. I wanted to see. Like, it's all. If all the information is available to me, I want to be able to. I want to make sure I have all the information. So, you know, that was also confusing to them. And I think at some point, they're, like, held on to that, like. Well, there were a few.

Penn Badgley (18:41)

You want more of those?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (18:43)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Less of those. But that's. But it was just mortifying, and I had to, you know, show up to meet with a judge and.

Nava Kavlan (18:54)

Oh, my God.

Penn Badgley (18:55)

Oh, my gosh.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (18:56)

Intense. To community service. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, how old were you? I was, like, a freshman in high school. Like, 14.

Penn Badgley (19:07)

Yeah, okay, that sounds severe.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (19:09)

Yeah. But I guess I think it was severe. I think an example is being made out of me. I think that there was. I think that they didn't know how to handle the situation. I think that there was a little. Maybe some homophobia around it. I don't know. But the worst part was there was a big window of time between the incident and when it happened and actually got called in to have to meet with the judge, Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my mom went through this, like, roller coaster of emotions where she was, like, really upset with me. Then she started to get over it. Then she'd just be embarrassed and she'd get upset again. And we were in this place where we were like, we were okay. And it had been like three months since the incident had happened. And I was at the courthouse with my mom, and I felt like, okay, like, she's not angry at me. She's not super mad at me. And then she. She's an ob GYN nurse, or was an ob GYN nurse, and she ran into one of her patients and was in. Her patient was like, oh, what are you doing here? And like, my mom was so mortified, and she immediately plunged back into. I'm so angry at you. I've never been so angry at you. But that was obviously, you know. Yeah, that's traumatizing and embarrassing.

Sophie Ansari (20:16)

The most perfect, embarrassing story we've ever heard.

Penn Badgley (20:19)

You're right. It's true.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (20:21)

So good. Yeah, yeah.

Nava Kavlan (20:23)

Jesse, obviously you're a prolific Broadway actor. You're a Tony Award winning Broadway actor. It turns out Sophie and I have both seen you on Broadway in different plays. And we'll get into that. But. But the project that brought you onto the world stage is Modern Family. And we want to know, can you walk us through sort of your path to getting that? And then we obviously have some questions related to that.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (20:44)

Yeah, of course. I had already moved to Los Angeles to do another TV show called the Class, which was a show that I really, really loved. Had an incredible cast. Jon Bernthal, Lizzy Caplan, Jason Ritter, Lucy Punch. It was directed by James Burroughs, who directed all of Lil and Grace and Friends. And it was meant to be this big, and everyone who was my age wanted to be on that show. And it was a really cool thing to be able to get that. And it felt very special. And I felt like, okay, this is it. I've made it. And that show was canceled after a season. And I thought, well, that was it, you know, that was my opportunity. I don't see how these big opportunities are going to come around too often. And it just felt like all the pieces were there for it to be such a big deal and for it to really fly. And I thought, okay, well, that's the, you know, telling me that I should just go back and do theater. And that's where I was happy. And there's nothing wrong with returning to those roots, I know what I'm doing there. I feel at home on stage. And I ended up booking another television show that I didn't want to do, but because of the writers strike that had happened right after the class finished, I felt like I had to for financial reasons. And I was really not feeling good about this role. A gay part. But it was very sort of stereotypical. It wasn't very nuanced. I didn't love the writing. The cast was great. It was with Niecy Nash and Jerry O'Connell, and I was thrilled to meet them. But, like, I just. It didn't feel having come off of something with such, you know, great scripts and a wonderful director. I felt like I was really taking steps backwards, and I was really. I was really questioning whether or not I needed to be in LA at all. And it was my plan to go back to New York right as soon as this was inevitably going to get canceled. I was like, there's no way that this is going to go. And sure enough, I think they aired three episodes. And, like, literally, like, I think like 50,000 people watched the episode, which is horrible in terms of tv, especially on a major network. And we were the first show canceled that season. I was like, great. I'm on a plane to New York, and I went back to New York, and I told my manager and agent says, like, I don't want to go do things in la. Like, please just send me scripts of things that are hit me here in New York. And my manager was like, I know you don't want to see these scripts, but this does shoot in la. Just read it and let me know if it's something you might want to go out for. And it was this pilot called My American Family. And I read it in a coffee shop on my iPhone in New York in a snowstorm. And I was like, oh, I 1000% have to go in on this show. And they wanted me to come in and audition for the role of Cameron, which was a role that I wasn't drawn to. When I was reading the script, I was like, I'd love to play this role of Mitchell. It seems much more me. And they just would not see me for it.

Nava Kavlan (23:48)

They would not see me for it.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (23:49)

And so I flew to LA and I auditioned for the role of Cameron. And halfway through the audition, they stopped me and said, we think you're more of a Mitchell. And I said, yeah, I am. And they said, would you go out into the hallway and look at these sides for this other character and come back in. And I said, no, but come back tomorrow and do it because I didn't want to.

Nava Kavlan (24:11)

Good for you, Jesse.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (24:14)

I was also nervous that I was not going to be not in right headspace like I had prepared to come in for this other character. And I was like, I'm going to be nervous. I'm not going to give a good reading. So I really want to have a fresh start. And I knew they were actively casting, but I was like, they just started. They'll be fine. And so I went in the next day, auditioned for Mitchell, and as I was leaving the studio, I got a phone call from my agent saying, they want you to test for it. Tested for it the next day, and then I got it. I was the first person that they cast, actually. And so that was how it came to me, very, very easily. And I think a lot of the reason why it did is because I was so relaxed. And I've never been so relaxed in an audition, partly because I was like, I've just came off of the first show canceled of last season. I'm happy to go back to New York, and I'm excited to go back to New York, really. And so if this happens and it holds me here in LA for a little while longer, that's okay. And I'm cool with it either way. And I think that there was just that sense of relaxation. I wasn't feeling like I had to have this job, even though it was the best script that I'd read in a long time and I desperately wanted it.

Nava Kavlan (25:23)

Stick around. We'll be right back.

Sophie Ansari (25:29)

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Sophie Ansari (28:31)

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Nava Kavlan (30:33)

I'm going to let Pen and Sophie ask questions but I have a pilot related question so I just thought jump in there. I just want to say my family before my mom, My mom passed away about 10 years ago. Before she passed away, we always had a really hard time finding shows we all like cuz my sister, my dad and I have almost identical tastes. And then my mom was like super divergent taste. But we loved Modern Family and I remember us all watching the pilot together. My sister called me because she knew we're going to be a guest and she's like you have to tell them about when we watched the pilot together and we were just like hysterically laughing and I just, we all considered it like one of the best episodes of television we've ever watched. And when we would get together on family vacations, we'd always watch it again together because we just knew we'd laugh so hard. I Think we laugh more and more each time we watched it. So it's like a very happy, warm family memory. And I wanted to ask you, like, how did it feel filming it? Like, did you have a special feeling? Did it feel different? Like, what do you remember about putting that episode together?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (31:26)

It felt so different. It felt so special. You know, we filmed it over the course of, I think, 10 days, and Julie Bowen was nine months pregnant with twins, and they were hiding, trying to hide her belly. During that, it felt like they really got the people that they wanted because Ed O'Neill was offered the role, but then he turned it down and then said they were gonna go after someone else. But then it came back to him. It just sort of felt like everyone fell into. To the parts that they were meant to play. Like, I felt like there was exterior forces that were bringing us together, because when we all did come together, it felt like we had known each other for a really long time. And I just remember that 10 days when we were filming the pilot, we all were just so comfortable and so happy to be working on it. And I just. You know, there's also so many things that can go wrong. You know, you could have the wrong director, or, you know, this great script could just fall flat because it doesn't translate well to. To the camera. And it just felt like every moment of the way it was all going the right way, which definitely made me nervous, too, because I wanted it to be the best version of what it was. But I agree with you that that pilot was so, so well done. And when I finally saw a cut of it, I was like, oh, God, this feels really special. And I don't know if Penn. If you've ever done this, but, like, if you shot something, you're like, oh, can I show you this thing that I shot? And everyone's like, oh, God. Okay. Yes, yes. We gotta. That Pen wants to show us. They all sit in front of the TV and they're like, it's only going to last 30 minutes. Don't worry about it. If it's terrible, we can figure out a way to, like, just say that it was okay. And I remember showing it to several people, and everyone was like, I was dreading watching this. And this is so great. This is so great. And so I was getting that. That feedback from people who I really trusted. And. And then I got word when they showed that they did something that is sort of dangerous to do during the upfronts, which I don't really know if they do upfronts in the same way that they do anymore, I don't think. You know. Yeah. Where they have all these, you know, buyers in a room. And, you know, it's the ABC day and the CBS day and the NBC.

Penn Badgley (33:38)

Such as a room, it's usually like msg, isn't it?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (33:41)

I mean, it's in a theater. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (33:43)

Okay.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (33:43)

What did you say? It's, in a way.

Penn Badgley (33:44)

Well, the years that I did, the upfronts, I think it was at Madison Square Garden. Yeah, yeah.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (33:49)

No, and they're. They're in huge spaces. So I think we were at Carnegie hall that year, and they decided to show the entire pilot of Modern Family to.

Penn Badgley (33:58)

Wow.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (33:58)

You know, normally they show, like, highly unusual and it's sizzle reel, but they were like, we're gonna show you the entire pilot of this new show. We have Modern Family. And there was like a collective groan in the audience. Cause all these people are so tired, they just wanna, like, get to lunch. They don't want us to be trapped in a theater for a half hour. I think they did this with the sitcom Joey, the Matt LeBlanc show, and that did not go well. And so I think it was a risky move. And they showed this pilot, and I wasn't there. But the creators, Steve Levitan and Chris Lloyd, were there. And Sarah Hyland happened to be in town for something else, and she snuck in and she watched it from the back of the house. And the laughter that people. The way that people were responding to this pilot felt so different. And I really wish I could have been in that room to hear. Hear all those people laughing, because it's. You know, these TV shows are something you watch in the privacy of your own living room. But to, like, watch that in a theater with all these people and they. It felt. It just felt so different. And Chris and Steve called us all and said, we think we have her onto something really special. The response was just unlike anything we've ever experienced. And that's sort of how it all launched. And I look back on that pilot and I'm so proud of it. And, you know, sometimes I wish that the show stayed more in those humble roots. Like, you know, it got a little shiny by season 11, but, like, I just. I love the way that it's sort of a scrappy, wonderful, perfect piece of television.

Sophie Ansari (35:30)

There are some iconic blooper reels of you and Eric Stonestreet and Aubrey Anderson Emmons, who plays Lily, your daughter on the show. I'm sure you've seen them. Have you?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (35:41)

Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Nava Kavlan (35:43)

Yeah, yeah.

Sophie Ansari (35:44)

I mean, they're. They're so good. There's just, like. One example is, like, I think it might have been her first day filming, just in case anybody else hasn't seen them. Her first day filming. And she comes in and she says, hey, I saw you on Modern Family.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (35:59)

Yeah, yeah. She joined us in season three. So, yeah, her mom had shown her, you know, parts of season one and two, so she'd know who she was working with. So she recognized us.

Sophie Ansari (36:12)

There's so many good moments. Like another time when you shove a cupcake into her mouth and she says, do it gently.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (36:19)

Do it gently. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nava Kavlan (36:22)

So good.

Sophie Ansari (36:23)

But I just. It just made me wonder, like, what was it like to film with such a young child?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (36:27)

Oh, my God. It's crazy because now I have a. I have to. I have kids myself. And so, you know, I'm looking at my four and a half year old, and it's like, wow, Aubrey was already, like, a year into Modern Family when she was four and a half.

Penn Badgley (36:40)

Yeah, that's wild.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (36:41)

And it's wild. And I remain very close with her. I've gone to see her school plays, and I had her on my podcast, which was really fun because I just thought it. I really got to grill her about what her early memories of that experience were. But it was really. I felt very protective of her because she was so young. I was the person. Like I said, we had babies for the first two seasons, and then they decided that they wanted to hire another actress to take over the role that would sort of be our permanent Lily. And we met with candidates that summer when we were on hiatus and I happened to be in town, so I read with several different kids to do this, and it was wild. Auditioning with 3 year olds who didn't even really know what they were doing. And they came in with such wonderful energy, and they weren't scared or intimidated, of course. Yeah, it was wild. It was wild. And I just remember, I think Aubrey's mother has, like, a clip of her, like, practicing the scene before coming into that audition. But she was great. She knew all her lines, and she was really fun. And she was also a kid, so she was, you know, acting chaotic and, like, you know, like, wanting to lie on the back of the sofa. We auditioned on the set of the show. We brought her into the living room to audition on the set because that was something that she would recognize from seeing it before, but she, like, was, like, lying on the back of the sofa and asking questions about, like, why there Was no roof on the. On in our apartment. And like, you know, she was just.

Penn Badgley (38:23)

Like, I actually love that.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (38:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really wonderful. And then she was like, are you real people because you live in a fake house? And I was like, I love. These are all such great observations. And, yeah, yeah, it was really special having her come on. But those first few weeks, she was very confused. She's like, why are we doing this again? Again?

Sophie Ansari (38:43)

I was like, we're going to be.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (38:44)

Doing it for a few hours, actually. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (38:45)

That's like.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (38:47)

She and Ed O'Neal were the two that were always wanting to finish up things quickly. Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (38:51)

In those clips, you can really see how good you are with her. That's just something I. I took note of. Like, there's one clip where she says, like, are you guys going to go to the Modern Family party later? And you're like, yeah, yeah, we're going to go. I'm super excited. Anyway, moving on, like. But always, like, entertaining her. And I just thought the relationship between the two of you, and obviously Eric as well, so sweet.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (39:16)

Yeah. It's a relationship and a friendship I hope I'll always have. It's wild watching her. She's almost getting ready to go to college now, and it's just. It's absolutely bonkers that I've known her that long. What I love so much about Modern Family is there was space to be real and for there to be dramatic moments. And I immediately recognize that even in the pilot, it. Even though there's a lot of really funny stuff around it, there is a. You know, my character was going through a big decision about how to reveal that he and his partner have adopted this child from Vietnam. And, you know, his dad is slightly homophobic, and, you know, it's. How is he gonna take that? And I just saw opportunity in the series for me to have the chance to be. To represent a very or a more grounded version of a gay character and a committed gay. A character that was committed in a relationship. I just saw great opportunity in that. You know, the previous comedies that I had done, of course, like, musical theater before that, but, like, you know, I had done a sitcom in front of a live studio audience, which, you know, feels like it's a bit more broad and, you know, you have an audience laughing at you and telling you what's funny in the moment. And then I did that same sort of structure with the next show I did, even though I was not as pleased with the material. It was very broad comedy. And so to be able to come in and really try my hand at something that was more subtle and more real and more grounded was really refreshing. And I was also such a fan of shows like the Office and, And Parks and Recreation. And I saw such. I don't know, there was so much potential to bring more than just humor to those types of sitcoms when they really are. They can't allow you to go into, like, more real moving moments. And when I found out that they wanted to see my character get married and know we were living in a world where we were fighting for marriage equality outside that, that television studio, I was like, this is so incredible that we can watch these characters go through those same struggles, and we can be a pop culture touchstone for what's happening in the real world. And, you know, when they decided to write a scene where my dad says to me, I don't. I just don't understand why you too new to get married? Like, that really resonated so much with me because my own personal relationship with my father and I had. And he's so supportive and so loving, and he was dancing at my wedding and so happy to be there, but he had a. He had a struggle with, with that, you know, from the early moments where he. I was caught stealing pornography to, like, me becoming gay, becoming more myself, and as a gay man in New York City and, you know, then taking gay roles and being on television, so, like, you know, anyone could tune in and watch me be a gay, be a gay person in their living rooms. Like, that was a big thing for him. He's like, well, that feels very exposing to me. And he had his. He had quite a journey with it. So when we had that episode where Ed O'Neill's characters. My dad was having such difficulty with coming to fully accepting his gay son. I was like, this is such an incredible moment for me to be able to get to play, because I can draw from my own experience. I think so many people can relate to this, both as Mitchell and as his father, Jay. And we have the opportunity to really change some hearts with this. And, and it remains to be those two episodes that were. Mitch and Cam's Wedding remain two of my favorite episodes that we ever got to shoot. And it's because they were grounded in such real emotion, and they were also hilarious. I mean, I think Nathan Lane was nominated for an Emmy Award and Elizabeth Banks as well, for their roles in those episodes because they were hilarious, but it was really the full gamut of emotions. And I, I. It's also Made me grow so much as an artist. Like, I look for more projects like that where I can use the full rainbow of, like, my abilities.

Nava Kavlan (43:30)

I've probably shared this before, but Penn and I, for a period of time, had done some research on, like, media that has a positive impact on, like, discourses of society. And we looked at some research from the Norman Lear center, and it was particularly on immigration. Like, the people trying to influence voting in relation to, like, immigration. And basically, I think they looked at, like, documentaries versus dramas, vers, comedies. And what was most impactful in changing people's minds were comedies. Like. Like, I think super. What was that? Superstore. That's right.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (44:01)

Yeah. Superstore. Yeah.

Nava Kavlan (44:02)

Superstore versus Madam Secretary. And I don't remember what the other one was. Was, like, the most impactful. Like, that's when people took the most action and, like, changing their vote, changing their minds. Like, they're the most receptive to a comedy, grappling with it because they don't.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (44:13)

Want it to feel like medicine. You know, I think you can. You can get. So you can really change minds and hearts when you come at something with comedy and with humor and with a lighthearted touch and with relatability. That's the other thing. It's like, a lot of these characters are in people's living rooms, and they feel like they know that. And I just. I feel like, really, people really do respond to entertainment when it feels like it's not being obviously shoved down their throats. And comedy is a great vessel for that.

Nava Kavlan (44:45)

And I think people love comedy characters more than any. Like, what shows do you watch again and again? Very few people, even if they love a drama, very few people will rewatch a drama again and again. But, like, people will rewatch again and again. Modern Families again and again. Like, you just love those characters so much, so you're more open to them.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (45:01)

Yeah, we all like to laugh. Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (45:03)

When I was in middle school, my family went to New York. We were visiting. My aunt and my sister has always been super into musical theater. She ended up going to a conservatory and got her degree in musical theater. But she was always, like, rallying our family around musical theater and around whatever musical she was into. And we went and saw the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee with the original cast with you in it.

Nava Kavlan (45:27)

And it.

Sophie Ansari (45:28)

I mean, it really stuck with us. And I was just talking about it with her yesterday, and she was talking about how blown away she was at the time and still is, that adults could play such moving, heartbreaking and Hilarious and, like, compelling children. And I agreed with her. But then I also went and. Because, you know, I was young at the time and, you know, you're far away. But I went and watched, like, a YouTube clip of you. You and your facial expressions. You're such a kid, and you do it so well. And I was wondering, like, how. How did you do that? You're an actor, obviously, but. But I feel like that's a very particular role to take on.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (46:12)

Yeah, there was adults playing children and audience participation are two things. Like, if I know that that's what's gonna happen in a play, I might. Get me the fuck out of here. I don't wanna see it. I don't wanna be a part of it. No, no, I don't want it. And we had both of those things in spelling Bee, the adults playing children. And then we had some audience members on the stage who would fill out the spellers. And I was like, oh, God, I'm gonna have to be dealing with. I'm gonna have to be playing a child as an adult and then sitting, like, literally right next to audience members. Like, it's just. This is gonna be a disaster. Of course it wasn't, and it was fine. But, like, I think we. That the show went through several different stages where we were trying to figure out, out that level of, like, how far to take it, especially with adults playing kids. And, you know, before, when we were putting the show together and we probably didn't have the greatest director in charge, you know, we were. We were just sort of all just left to our devices. We were really lucky that the incredible director, James Lapine, who directed, you know, into the woods and Sunday in the park with George, and he. He's one of Stephen Sondheim's greatest collaborators. He joined the production when it moved to New York, and he was catching up. He wasn't part of the early workshop, so he made us all drop our affectations for the first few weeks of rehearsal. And then we would have to bring in very specific things from our own childhood to the rehearsal process. And he would start letting us. He would start allowing us to layer on some of these. These different nuances. But he wanted them always to be grounded in reality. And he never wanted for us to look like we were adults playing children. He wanted it to be the truth led if we lead everything with the truth. And so I think that really deepened a lot of those performances. And it's so interesting because I've now seen the show's about to celebrate. It's like 20th or 21st, 5th anniversary or something. And I've seen other productions of it now. I've seen kids do it. I've seen adults do it. There was a big production of it at the Kennedy center in Washington D.C. where they had like an all star cast do it, which is really wild. But I think that's the success of all these productions is that ingrained in it is it's all about the outsider and, and embracing your inner child. And I think when people who take the show and can do that, do that, it's successful. And I'm so proud of that show. I was so thrilled to be a part of it. Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (49:00)

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Nava Kavlan (54:09)

Jesse, you have a podcast called Dinners on Me and we've all listened to it, but for our listeners who don't know anything about it, can you walk them through the premise and recommend an episode to start if they wanted to sort of jump in?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (54:22)

Gosh. Well, it is. What is it? I take people out to a meal. I take someone that I admire. They're usually someone I already know. So that, that's nice because it's a friendship I already have. But I take them out to a meal. We go to a restaurant in the, in real life, it's a real life restaurant, usually a working restaurant with other people in other civilians.

Nava Kavlan (54:43)

Do people gawk? Like, how do they react?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (54:45)

Sometimes. Sometimes they're a little taken aback, but you know, they, we find a quiet corner, we set up our microphones and we have, we have a meal and you hear, you know, the waiter come to the table and take our order and we have a meal and have a great conversation. And that's what the episode is. And I've had some incredible, incredible guests, everyone from Chelsea Clinton to Lisa Kudrow to Nathan Lane, who I was just speaking about earlier, who's a guest star on Modern Family, Jesse Williams. I have so many episodes that I absolutely love. Margo Martindale's episode is one of my favorites, just because I did this film, Cocaine Bear with her and fell in love with her on set. And we just have a really great time sort of breaking down that time we got to spend together. The Lisa Kudrow episode is really, really wonderful. Sofia Vergara, Ed O'Neill, some of my Modern Family castmates have been on it. It's really fun, I think, for people to listen to the Modern Family episodes because we obviously have a shorthand between the two of us and we talk, you know, I've had Sarah Hyland on and Ed O'Neill and Sophia and Nolan Gould and Aubrey, my daughter. I'm about to have Ty Burrel. There's a nice shorthand between us, but also it's fun to sort of hear us talk about things that the audience wouldn't necessarily think that we talk about, you know, but it's fun, I think, fun for them to also listen to us just interact as friends because, you know, we have 11 years of history together and there's a lot of things that people don't know about those friendships.

Sophie Ansari (56:18)

Yeah. I feel like the premise of the podcast is genius. Like, you really did carve out a niche within, in the podcast interview, celebrity interview space, which is hard to do.

Penn Badgley (56:30)

We would know.

Sophie Ansari (56:34)

But I like, how did you come up with that idea? Were there other ideas floating around or was this always the one?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (56:42)

I was actually working on doing a podcast with someone else. It was gonna be me and her, and we pitched this idea to Sony. It was about relationships, someone I really, really love so much. And I was excited to do it with her. And Sony ended up passing on the project, but then coming back to me because they knew I had had a background in the culinary world and they were trying to figure out a podcast in the culinary space. And so they presented me with a few ideas. One of them was dinners on me. Another one was me actually having people over and cooking for them and having.

Penn Badgley (57:14)

Way too much work.

Nava Kavlan (57:14)

That is a lot.

Penn Badgley (57:16)

I cannot. I mean, a podcast is already so much work.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (57:19)

Then you're right. Then I'm going to cook on top of it.

Penn Badgley (57:22)

Are you going to double the fee?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (57:23)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm so happy I nixed that idea, but this is perfect. It's been really wonderful. Yeah. I just get to show. And also I get to try some restaurants that I've been wanting to try for a really long time. And I get to showcase chefs and establishments that I love. We've mostly shot in Los Angeles and New York. We're about to shoot an episode in Salt Lake City with Ty Burrell. And then I'm working in London doing a play in a few months. And we're going to take the podcast across the pond and do some episodes in London, which is really exciting. So I. I do love that part of it that I get to sort of celebrate these restaurants, these chefs and the. The food world, which I admire so greatly.

Penn Badgley (58:03)

Yeah. When I first heard it, I thought it's. There's that lovely kind of multi dimensional aspect to it where It. It's. Well, you just said it better than I could. Just the way that you're supporting these. These chefs, these.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (58:15)

The.

Penn Badgley (58:16)

The concepts around their food. Food. I. I really like that.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (58:20)

Yeah, Yeah. I had.

Penn Badgley (58:21)

I had some. Some pod jealousy, I thought. Well, you get to go to a restaurant. It just. You just. It just set up. That's. That sounds really lovely.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (58:31)

It is nice. I mean, there is, you know, the driving time that it takes to get there. And like. Of course, I. I just. We recorded with Jane lynch and we went up to Montecito to. To work, to have a meal with her. So, you know, I was in the hour. The car for an hour and a half. But it was great. It was a wonderful day trip.

Penn Badgley (58:45)

And it's like a destination, which I think is actually very cool.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (58:48)

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Penn Badgley (58:50)

Well, we do have a final question.

Nava Kavlan (58:52)

Wait, wait, wait. No, I have one more question. Before your final question, I have to ask. Okay. I think this was. Whenever Folklore was released, there was. Someone tweeted, you know, Taylor Swift had that song. Last Great American Dynasty. Someone tweeted, like, Jesse Tyler. They're sort of like Dream Cast. If she ever made that music video. And I just wanted her. I'm just gonna study her face. I've always hoped that she's turning that into a movie. She has a deal with Searchlight, and I'm just going to study your face. Is something in the works? Could you possibly be starring in a last Great American Dynasty adaptation?

Penn Badgley (59:21)

Okay, less affectation. Less affectation. Remember, go back to your childhood.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (59:27)

Oh, God. I mean, wouldn't that be fun? I think she's going to be a really great director. I don't know. I mean. Well, I wonder what she is going to direct. Does anyone know what her first project is? No?

Nava Kavlan (59:38)

Okay, this is what I've read.

Sophie Ansari (59:39)

This is what I.

Nava Kavlan (59:40)

What I've read. Just that it's low budget, which I thought was surprising, and that she's fully written the script and she's directing it. I think it is a Rebecca Harkness thing. That's just my wild theory.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (59:48)

But, I mean, it's got to be something involved with something she's already put.

Nava Kavlan (59:51)

Out there because she likes her little Easter eggs. Why did she write that song? Why'd you put it out?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (59:55)

Correct. Yeah, No, I think that there's. Obviously.

Nava Kavlan (59:58)

Yeah.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (59:59)

I mean, I haven't. I have. No one's called me.

Nava Kavlan (60:01)

Okay.

Penn Badgley (60:02)

Okay.

Nava Kavlan (60:02)

All right.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (60:06)

No, he's telling the truth.

Penn Badgley (60:08)

He's telling the truth. So we do. We do have a classic last question. If you could go back to 12 year old Jesse, what would you say or do?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (60:19)

I wouldn't shoplift. I would just put the magazine back. I, that I think I would encourage myself to just. Gosh, I mean it. I, I just feel like when I was a kid, I, I, I protected myself so much and I, I didn't necessarily find a comfort and ease within myself, and I think that made things harder than it needed to be for me. I think that I wish that I could have. First of all, I think all of us wish that we could go back and be like, it's going to be okay. I think that's just a classic answer, but it really was okay. And I think so many of the things that made it okay for me were the things that I was hiding from other people. And I guess I wish that I could have said, you don't have to worry so much about hiding those things and you can be more authentically yourself, yourself now, and you're going to be taken care of. Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (61:31)

Sweet.

Penn Badgley (61:32)

Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (61:32)

Thank you so much, Jesse. It was so nice to meet you.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (61:35)

Nice meeting you all, too. Yeah. Thank you. I'm jealous that you get to do this with other people.

Sophie Ansari (61:39)

Yeah, it is. It is nice.

Penn Badgley (61:42)

Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (61:43)

We both have things to be jealous of.

Nava Kavlan (61:44)

The food.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (61:45)

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Sophie Ansari (61:47)

You can listen to Jesse Tyler Ferguson's podcast Dinners on me everywhere. You get your podcasts and follow him online at Jesse Tyler. Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavlan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at Lemonada. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.

Penn Badgley (62:14)

I don't think we've ever met, have we?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (62:15)

I don't think we have have. I'm excited.

Penn Badgley (62:17)

Yeah. Thank you for coming on.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (62:18)

It's weird because you're like 10 years younger than me, but I also feel like I grew up watching you. Really? How does it feel?

Penn Badgley (62:27)

That's an honor.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (62:28)

Yeah. Gossip Girl. Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (62:30)

Hey, I'm Reshmitt Sajani, founder of Girls who Code and Moms First. I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife, as I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck?

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (62:42)

Stuck.

Sophie Ansari (62:43)

Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (63:01)

Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser.

Nava Kavlan (63:14)

Focus that got them to where they are today.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (63:16)

And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you.

Nava Kavlan (63:25)

Confessions of a Female Founder is out now.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (63:28)

Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music.

Nava Kavlan (63:31)

You can also ask Alexa Alexa, play.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (63:33)

Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan.

Nava Kavlan (63:35)

On Amazon Music and she will.