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- [00:02]
Sophie
Lemonade.
- [00:06]
Nava
Kevin has turned to bright red and it's still thinking about it.
- [00:10]
Kevin Smith
It's like this will be the next thing I discuss with my therapist.
- [00:13]
Penn Badgley
Kids, welcome to Pod Crushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.
- [00:18]
Nava
I'm Nava.
- [00:19]
Sophie
And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties.
- [00:22]
Penn Badgley
Never drinking water, always eating too much sugar, and generally ignoring the signals from our bodies. But anyway, let's have a sleepover.
- [00:28]
Sophie
Earth to Pen. Are you gonna welcome us?
- [00:32]
Nava
Are you ready?
- [00:32]
Penn Badgley
Yeah, I'm here. Oh. Oh. You guys said you're ready. Sorry, I was still waiting for you because I've been waiting for you for a while.
- [00:38]
Sophie
Please keep this at the beginning of this episode.
- [00:40]
Penn Badgley
Yes, we should have it.
- [00:42]
Megan
Welcome to podcast.
- [00:44]
Penn Badgley
Welcome. Don't talk over me. Welcome to podcrust. I am your podcast POD host, Penn Badgley. I am joined by my podcast POD hosts, Nava, Calvin, and Sophie. I'm sorry.
- [00:58]
Sophie
Yeah, just like I was. Unfortunately, I. I'm not in the rest of this episode. I'm not with our lovely guest today.
- [01:05]
Kevin Smith
That's right.
- [01:06]
Sophie
I was so sick, you guys, on this day that you recorded this episode, it was rough, you know, Anais gave it to me. She goes into the daycare while I just do like a 30 minute workout. And as I dropped her off, I saw these two kids, they're snotty little noses. And I was like, no, no, I.
- [01:25]
Nava
Know those kids well, we missed you. But Kevin was awesome. And I have a question for you guys, because Kevin was. I mean, we talked about so much, but he was largely here to promote the 25th anniversary of dogma. And he made an announcement on Instagram, which I thought was really cool and bold, which is that he's at Cannes. It's the 78th year of Cannes and he has set the goal to be at Cannes 80, which is in two years, to premiere a new film. He says he hasn't written it yet, but in two years, he is going to direct and write a Cannes worthy film. So I'm going to put you guys on the spot and say, June 4, 2027, what are you guys going to do?
- [02:02]
Penn Badgley
Whoa. Here's what. Here's. Here's what. Here's what I'm going to tell you. I'm going to make this pun when Cannes is turning 80, I'll say, maybe they should start calling it Can't.
- [02:12]
Nava
No, can't wiggle away from you. You got to give me a real answer. In two years, where are you going to be vaginally what's your big goal?
- [02:18]
Penn Badgley
What do you mean? I have no idea. Well, I'll have two more children, so I'll be alive. Hopefully, I will be successful. Hopefully.
- [02:28]
Sophie
You know.
- [02:32]
Penn Badgley
That'S about as. That's about as much as I've got for you, boo.
- [02:36]
Nava
So boring. So lame. So nonspecific. You could do better.
- [02:39]
Sophie
I know. My goal for Pen is that in June 4, 2027, he's announcing a rom com. Like, no murder. Okay? No murder. Gossip.
- [02:51]
Nava
Just.
- [02:54]
Sophie
No, no. Okay. Myself. Myself.
- [02:58]
Nava
May. I mean, shoot.
- [02:59]
Sophie
I keep saying May. June 4, 2027, I will have a yard. I'm putting that out there. I will have outdoor space. You can really tell what kind of headspace I'm in with a toddler who. Who bangs on the door in the morning to be let out. That's so boring, Nava. Sorry. Where are you? June 4th?
- [03:23]
Nava
Yeah. You guys are just really. I'm gonna give you guys a science answer. Okay? This one doesn't come from me. This came. So you got. I don't know. Listeners of the podcast might remember that I once spoke to a palm reader on Venice Beach. I have done it again, this time in New York City. Spoke to a palm reader on the street. She's like, I need to give you a love reading. And she kept screaming at me. So I was like, all right, whatever. And she said that in that by next summer. Actually, that's sooner than two years. She said, you're gonna be pregnant and married by. Oh, my God. So I'm gonna say, in two years, I'm gonna have a one year old.
- [03:54]
Sophie
I love it.
- [03:55]
Nava
That's what the palm reader said. But my personal goal. And she was like, call me when you get engaged, because it's definitely happening.
- [04:01]
Sophie
Did she give you her number?
- [04:03]
Nava
She gave me her number, and she gave me the guy's initials. She told me a little bit about him. This was, like, very specific.
- [04:07]
Penn Badgley
So bold.
- [04:08]
Nava
It's a little weird, but, um, you know, but I'm gonna keep that info to myself. The goal that I will set for myself is to be a homeowner in two years.
- [04:17]
Penn Badgley
Ooh, there we go.
- [04:19]
Sophie
You definitely did the best. You should have gone first.
- [04:22]
Penn Badgley
But wait, you have a yard? You having a yard?
- [04:25]
Sophie
I have a yard. Yeah.
- [04:26]
Penn Badgley
That's similar.
- [04:26]
Nava
Yeah.
- [04:26]
Sophie
And Clyde in that is I'm home too.
- [04:29]
Nava
And Pen is alive. Pen is still alive.
- [04:32]
Penn Badgley
Already a homeowner just got multiple times over.
- [04:36]
Nava
His wife is birthing the kids. He's not even doing that work. So just pass her. He's Just watching it happen.
- [04:43]
Penn Badgley
I just want to go back to my joke about Kant. Kant.
- [04:47]
Nava
You know who can do it, though? Kevin Smith.
- [04:51]
Penn Badgley
Today's guest is the acclaimed film director, Truly Kevin Smith, whose films and franchises include Clerks, Mallrats, Chasing Amy, Are you there yet? Jay? And Silent Bob. He's got a spree of horror films like Tusk and Red State. He's got a million podcasts, one of which he spoke about most smodcast. He's also got one with his daughter that he calls beardless dickless Me. I don't get it. But he's here today. He's here today celebrating the re Release of the 25th anniversary. Re release, rather, of Dogma, which is a film so near and dear to my heart, especially when I was 12 and 13, that cult comedy classic has a dedicated following. I'm one of them. It sold out. A 25 city tour in the first 24 hours. Right. Which fulfills my theory that Kevin Smith is a sellout.
- [05:50]
Kevin Smith
Hey.
- [05:50]
Penn Badgley
Okay, we got a good show for you guys.
- [05:54]
Kevin Smith
Stick around. Guess what?
- [06:00]
Sophie
Discover is accepted at 99% of the places that take credit cards nationwide.
- [06:04]
Kevin Smith
You heard right, 99%. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts stuck in the past.
- [06:10]
Sophie
Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com credit card.
- [06:18]
Nicole Norfleet
Hi, I'm Megan, and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now listen, wherever you get your podcast.
- [06:56]
Penn Badgley
What we always do on this show, we start at 12 years old for everybody.
- [06:59]
Kevin Smith
Oh, fantastic.
- [07:00]
Penn Badgley
And. And you strike us definitely as somebody who's reflected on your adolescence a lot. You seem like you were just total film comic book nerd. Total, you know, like. Like a sketch comedy nerd. So. And then, not for nothing, I mean, this is not to blow smoke up your ass, but to give you your flowers and just also state something that I think is objectively true. I mean, look, you're standing in a movie theater that you own. You seem to me to be a person who somehow, very young, started creating the life they wanted. So I'm just kind of curious. Start us at 12 how was 12 year old Kevin seeing the world? What did he want to do? What was day to day life like when I was.
- [07:43]
Kevin Smith
So I'm 12, I'm living in Highlands, New Jersey, which is about maybe three miles from here. Two towns, twin towns. There's Highlands and Atlantic Highlands. Atlantic Highlands had the movie theater. So that's where we spent our, our youth. You know, every, all the free time we had. I, I had a pretty idyllic childhood, man. I guess we were one of the last generations that were encouraged to like go out and play. They tell me now that we were the latchkey kid generation, which meant that we were kind of in charge of ourselves. I grew up in a house where only one parent worked, my dad. And he worked at night, the night shift at the post office. So govy employee and stuff. And my mom was a homemaker. So there was always kind of somebody home in our house. And, and to show you like how wonderful it is, I, you know, I know a lot of people have a problem with where they came from or the, or their past. When I was in the nut house, like they were always like, hey man, like when you were a kid, what about your parents? They're always going at my parents and I'm like, I got to be honest with you. Like I got, there's nothing there. I mean, yes, there's some insecurities probably built in and, and I, you know, I have no respect for anybody's time when it comes to lateness and stuff. And that came directly from my mother. I'll throw her under right at the fucking bus for that one. But you know, generally speaking, man, like, my parents were wonderful. And so even now, like whenever I'm in this area and I come, we do shows here, it's podcasts all the time. It's like a. Ritualistically. I drive down to where I grew up and my house isn't even there anymore. It was destroyed by a flood and then they rebuilt and put it on stilts. So there's nothing left from my childhood where I actually grew up. But I, I still go past that lot which has a house on it, and new family lives there and that street all the time because it was, it was happy. I enjoyed my childhood. My parents were like wonderful. We, we didn't have a tight relationship though. They were 70s and 80s parents, man. And you didn' you weren't besties with your parents back then. Like they were your parents. They were on pedestals. It's kind of the same relationship you had with God as A Catholic kid like you, you're supposed to fear the Lord, and you're like, wait, aren't we supposed to love the Lord? Like, yeah, love him all you want, but you got to fear him and stuff. And we feared our parents. Not that they were abusive or anything, but they were in charge. They called the shots. And. And we didn't have this buddy, buddy stuff that, like, when I had my kid, I went a different way. I was like, I'm 28 years old. What I know about parenting, man. Like, I can't come across like, I know everything to this kid. So I'm going to treat her like she's just a smaller adult. And our relationship was mostly closer. So much so that, like, when she moved out at age 23, I got like an existential crisis moment where I was like, oh, my God, it's over. And I asked her as a kiddo, was I a good dad? And she goes. She goes, I never really thought of you as my father as much as my fun older brother who had all the money. And I was like, oh, my God. That's exactly the vibe I was going for. Thank you. So my father, I didn't have relationship with him, but what I had with him was his love language, as the kids would say today, was taking me to the movies. Like, he took me to movies, and particularly at age 12 that were probably more advanced than I was absolutely ready for. I remember he took me to see the World According to Garp in this very movie theater. And in that movie is wonderful Robin Williams Williams movie about a character's life based on the John Irving, the great John Irving novel. And, you know, most 12 year olds probably wouldn't be into it. You know, they'd probably be like, this is boring. Like, I couldn't. I saw no other kids in that theater when I was there with my father. But it was kind of my father going, you can handle this. Either that or is my father going, like, nobody's going to see this movie with me, so I might as well fucking take you. But it always felt like that was him trying to communicate. This is what I enjoy in life. These are my tastes. Do you understand? Like that. That was him raising me culturally. So at age 12, my father's bringing me to the movies every Wednesday. I think what happened was the way I've understood the story is my mom had a cat's in the cradle conversation with my father. Since my father worked at the post office at night doing the night shift, we didn't have a lot of crossover with him. Like, we'd see him in the morning right as he was coming home from work, and we were going to school. Most of the time he had to be quiet in the house because he was sleeping, because he had to get up and go to work at night. And Stu. So I guess my mom was like, you're missing these kids growing up, man. And, like, you got to spend more time with them. And so my father, I guess, was like, well, the fat one likes movies, so I'll take the fat one to movies more often. And so my mom told me one day. She's like, this happened when I was 12 years old. My mom told me, one day your father's gonna pick you up and he's gonna bring you to the movies. He'll pick you up from school at noon and bring you to the movies. I see a matinee. I said, well, I. I'm not done until 3. It ain't a half day. She goes, it doesn't matter. He's picking you up. I said, what do I tell them, the nuns? She said, you tell him your aunt died. And so I was like, all right. That's the kind of Catholic family we were. We were encouraged to lie to the clergy. And so they call me down to the office at noon, Sister Gloria Louise, and she's like, oh, my God, Kevin, I'm so sorry to hear about your aunt. I was like, yeah, it's all sudden, just happened this morning. And she goes, your father's here. Pick you up, take you to the wake. I said, okay. And she goes, we'll pray for your aunt. I said, don't bother. And so I get into the car with Dad. I was like, what are we doing? And he goes, we're going to see Raiders of the Lost Ark.
- [13:18]
Penn Badgley
Oh, wow.
- [13:19]
Kevin Smith
So in this theater, we go see Raiders of the Lost Ark, man. Matinee and stuff. Now he wanted to see it more than I did. I was a big Harrison Ford fan because he was Han Solo, so I'd see anything he was in, but, you know, it looked old timey to me. So we sit down to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark. This is incredibly fucking formative. Lights go down and I. I know one version of my father, the stern patrician, the patriarch of the family, you know, at the joy of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Lit this motherfucker up in a way I'd never seen him before. And he was like, oh, my God. He was talking in the movie theater. He goes, oh, my God, this is a cliffhanger. This is the kind of movie I would go see with your Aunt Barbara. When I was a kid, we'd pay 50 cents. We'd say, have a movie, and they'd end it. We'd have to come back the next week. They're doing cliffhangers. This is amazing. I'm having a great time. You having a great time? It was like he had done a rail of coke off my mom's ass right before he left the house. And he was like, I'm gonna take the kids in the movies, Grace. And so sitting next to that guy, sitting in movie after movie, in this very same fucking building in the dark, I learned who my father was. Man, like, listening to comedy. George Carlin was a gift from my father. George Carlin's in Dogma. And there's a reason for that direct line between, like, my father being like, you giving me Class Clown, his George's album at age 9, and being like, you can handle this. Just, you know, don't listen to it. Don't let your mother hear you listen to it. And I never gave this to you. And. And I would listen to it all the time. Because at 9, you hear somebody cursing, like you're into it. It's like, oh, my God, this one. But, you know, you listen to Carlin for a minute, you get past the curses, and he's just a wisdom soul. Even at nine years old, the man, like, enraptured me because his love of language and his storytelling and he just seemed like a smart individual and stuff. One day my mom came in the room. I didn't see her here because I had the headphones on. I was listening to the album and I was doing stuff and she was talking to me. And then she did the mom thing. She just yanks the cord out of the hi fi just in time to hear Sucker Tits. And she was like, this is George Carlin. Where'd you get this? I was like, got it from dad and I threw him right under the bus. So those were formative years where I was not sitting there going, and because of this, one day I'll be a filmmaker. That didn't come till like, nine years later. When I was 21, I saw Richard Linklater, Slacker. I said, oh, maybe I could do this. But my whole life it was sitting next to my old man. I asked him one day, I was like, you know, because he was barely very non communicative. He's not me. Didn't wear his heart on his sleeve and shit. He wasn't from that world. I said, dad, what did you want to do when you were a kid? He's like, what do you mean? I was like, what did you dream about doing when you were like my age? You're like, you know how I dream about, like, making movies. What did you dream about before you gave up? And he was like, I didn't give up. I was like, what'd you dream about? He goes, I dreamt about getting married and having kids. And I was like, oh, so your dreams came true? He's like, yes. And I was like, oh, all right. But inside I was like, are you serious? That's your dream? Anybody could get married and have kids. Where's this man's ambition? Like, no wonder we're in this little house in Highlands, New Jersey, because he's got no ambition. Now, as a 54 year old man, I could tell you without a doubt my father was the smartest person I ever met. I often wonder, like, if I, you know, if I hadn't veered toward entertainment, towards storytelling, which I have now been in longer than I've not been in it, right? Like for 23 years I was a normal ass human being doing good things and living a life like everybody else, trying to figure it out. And then at age 23, like, I get pulled into fantasy land and I've been there ever since. That's why I love being here. And I come back to Jersey all the time because. And probably why I drive past my house. It reminds me of the dreamer, the kid who would, you know, walk these streets and didn't want to leave. My brother and sister couldn't wait to get out of our home town. They were world travelers and shit like that. I never wanted to leave. Like, I was happy. And I'm not saying that I'm not happy now. Like, I found happiness elsewhere as well. But this is the place that built me. These are the streets that, like made me dream. And this is the movie theater where I saw film after film after film and never once thought maybe I could do this shit that had to happen in Manhattan, you know, at an art house theater. That's where I had my dawning revelation. But anyway, back to 12 years old. So that's all the background that gets me to where I am at 12.
- [17:42]
Nava
I have so many questions, but I sort of want to bring it from your childhood into dogma. I'm curious about these kind of like spiritual and existential questions that you explore in that movie and how much of it stems with spiritual and existential questions that you were exploring at 12:13, 14.
- [17:59]
Kevin Smith
I was. My cosmology was handed to me by, you know, my parents. And my dad was more like, well, she. Me. So whatever she says goes like. He wasn't the hardcore Catholic. Mom was like, hardcore Catholic. Dad's parents weren't hardcore Catholics. So mom. Mom's parents versus say, they set the tone. So my mom's faith was handed to her by practically two strangers. My mom was an adopted kid, so she was. She came to my grandparents, who I called my grandparents, through the Catholic Charities. The Catholic Church would be like, we got these little babies on doorsteps. You want to raise a kid? They would just give kids to Catholic people to raise. And so my grandmother was given my mom at age, like, barely one or something like that. I'm not a psychologist by any stretch of the imagination, but conversations I've had with my mother and other people have been adopted with a sense of, like, beyond gratitude, insane gratitude for, you know, being chosen. There's a, you know, psychology that goes along with, why was I so easy to let go of, or dot, dot, dot. But to be quote, unquote, rescued by somebody else. And. And, you know, my mom's point of pride is like, my brothers and sisters, she didn't have a choice. My mom had this. She chose me. So when. When you feel that way about your parents, everything your parents say is religion. And in the case of my mom, my mom was raised in that faith as well. She then inflicted it upon my dad because my dad was like, I want the sex to keep going. And then when we had. She had us. It was given to us and not in any sort of, like, you know, cruel way. It was like. It was so matter of fact, it was like, this is what we believe. This is true. And there was never a question in childhood of anything like, you know, and not like I, as a child, I was told not to have questions, just never even occurred to me. It's like, of course there was a war in heaven. Of course there was Adam and Eve. Of course, you know, the ark, of course Jesus, like, all of this is just as real as raincoats. And like, Marvel Comics, dc, that shit's fake. But these stories, biblically true. So being raised in that, you know, it. There's just no bump whatsoever. I started bumping into it. Geez. Probably around the time I started writing Clerks as I was going to film school, because. Because dogma. I started writing even before Clerks back then it was called very ambitiously. God. Thank. Thank the Lord.
- [20:37]
Penn Badgley
You were going to call him God.
- [20:39]
Kevin Smith
Yeah. Wow. At age 21, you know, like, I had so much experience. Yeah. As I got older, one day I tripped into that where I was like, hey man, we make fun of the Greeks and the Romans for believing all this stuff that we read now is literature. Who's to say that in 10,000 years what we believe is Bible truth doesn't just turn out to be somebody else's literature that they're kind of goofing on us for and stuff? And those are blasphemous thoughts. Let me be honest with you. We're on the set of Dogma. Okay, so we're 1998, we're shooting.
- [21:10]
Penn Badgley
And how old were you then?
- [21:12]
Kevin Smith
20. Let me see. We start shooting. So I'm 27, heading into 28. At that time, George Carlin, you know. And again, Dogma is an expression of a shaky belief system. This is me trying to hold on to my faith. So I'm working with George Carlin, one of my favorite artists on the damn planet. Whatnot. Somebody I sought for the movie. Movie. I was like, we gotta get George Carlin to play a Catholic cardinal man. Like, we reached out to his manager, he goes, you want George to do comedy in your movie? I was like, no, no, no. I said, we want George to play a character, play a role, act. And he goes, what role would he play? I said, he'd play a Catholic cardinal. His manager goes, oh, George will love that. So going into the flick, I still believe. So I'm on set with Carlin, who is a very famous lapsed Catholic. It does lots of Catholic material, which I loved growing up. And we're doing the sequence, like if you know the movie, like it's in the third act. They're about to rededicate the church that these angels have to walk through. It's my most plot driven movie I've ever met. Although after watching it night after night, it's really a movie full of people who just exposit the plot at one another and explain the movie to one another as the movie goes on. But it's still kind of fun to watch. So we're outside the church and, you know, Ben and Matt show up and all hell is to break loose. And George is there dressed in his cardinal whites. So George goes, hey, what's going on in this scene again? And I was like, well, boys show up, they say their. Then off camera, like, what happens is they kill everybody and then they're going to walk through the doors of the church and when they come out, presumably they'll be gunned down by the cops, and that will send them straight to heaven. And George is going, where'd you get this? I was like, it's called a plenary indulgence, George. Like, it's a Catholic thing. Happened in my church when I was a kid. 1983, we had a centennial, and our church was, you're granted, you know, a plenary indulgence day. Other people see this happened. That's why it's. You know, I'm not creative. And the plot of dogma is predicated on something that happened when I was 13 years old where I was like, wait a second. You walk through this door and all your sins are forgiven? They're like, yeah. I was like, what if you killed people? Like, all your sins are forgiven? I was like, what if I go inside, come back out, kill people, then go back in? All your sins forgiven? This makes no sense. We've been told to, like, follow the rules, and suddenly we walk through a doorway, and so all the other kids let go of it. I held onto it for years. It wound up being kind of the core of dogma. So there I am trying to explain it to George, you know, right before we shoot. And so I'm going through the history of the plenary indulgence and, like, a catechism, and George is, like, staring at me, just nodding, and has the look on his face of, like, an adult when a kid over explains Star wars to him. And it's just like. And then finally he goes, you really believe in all this, don't you? And I was like, yeah, I was raised Catholic. You were raised Catholic. You don't? And he goes, no, I'm smarter than that, you know, And. And so that was the beginning of the end. I'll never lay my lack of faith on somebody else's feet. I'm a grown man and make my own decisions. However tough to maintain your Catholicism in the face of one of the smartest people that you ever met, who is the one who really starts questioning, going, really? So it wasn't until I was 27 years old that I was like, perhaps. Perhaps there's more to this, you know, than I thought.
- [24:27]
Nava
Stick around. We'll be right back.
- [24:31]
Penn Badgley
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- [26:04]
Nava
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- [27:14]
Megan
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- [28:30]
Penn Badgley
Dogma, to me specifically seems like a movie that was created by somebody who had actually already reached some of the conclusions you're talking about reaching sort of during and after you'd come to your conclusions, sort of casting away the corruption and the, and the strangeness of organized religion, but sort of holding on to, of all things, faith. But then you're speaking now about in a way where it's like you kind of threw faith out with that. And I guess what I remembered of Dogma was like, you don't need to worry about the inconsistencies of organized religion. Just believe in God. And so, you know, forgive me, but I guess I'm trying to understand if that's the message I got. You know, it's interesting that you didn't seem to be either giving or receiving that same message or, I don't know, are you saying that, Are you, are you, are you, do you still have faith in something or.
- [29:29]
Kevin Smith
I think it's, I think it's a good case of, you know, do you trust the messenger? Like, is the message. What's more important, the message or the messenger? If you get something out of that movie that's you know, powerful spiritual. That makes sense to me because the person who wrote it and the person who directed it was that person. Like, he was a salesman for his faith, for what he believed. Because every night I watch it on tour and I'm like, oh, look at this. This is a child's prayer. This is. This is, if you know your Old Testament, this is King David dancing the fool in front of the Ark of the Covenant. This was my profession of faith. This was me going like, you know, I went to church my whole life and it was always boring. And nobody seemed to celebrate their faith. They mourned it. This was my idea of church. Just happens to have a lot of anal jokes in it as well. So I. You absolutely right. I'm not as the person who put that all up there. And it's not so much the movie. And honestly, it wasn't George Carlin. And again, I'm an adult and make my own decisions. But yeah, yeah, broadcast that I did from 2007 for, like 12 years, was SModcast with Scott Mosher. So Scott was, you know, agnostic, leaning toward atheists our. Our whole relationship. And if you listen to Smodcast, you know, by the time we get to episode 200, he's not trying to disabuse me of my faith, but Scott is the guy who's like, you know, I'm like, what do you mean you don't believe in heaven? Like, that's ridiculous. We have to go somewhere. And he's like, no, we don't. And I was like, yeah. I was like, what about everything I've learned and all that information and all my experience? He's gone, oh. He's going, see, that's the thing. That's the difference between us. He's going to. Your arrogance makes you believe that this all has to go on for you. He's going, but like, I don't feel that way. I don't. I think the world will keep turning without me. And I was like, but what about everything you. You learn, all your experiences? And he's like, they go right in the ground with me. I was like, that's impossible. It has to move on. He goes, why? He goes, look at your laptop. He's going, think about all the information on there, because what happens to your laptop one day it just spins down. But all that information. He goes, doesn't matter. It was there.
- [31:51]
Penn Badgley
Now it's actually. Now it goes on the cloud. So he's wrong.
- [31:55]
Nava
Well, actually, you know, I. I don't know enough about it to say this intelligently, but I just read something that quantum physics now believes that consciousness continues after the body dies in a new realm. And I was like, what is this? But. And I started to read about it and I couldn't understand it, but. So quantum physics might now be on the side of some kind of an afterlife, even though it wouldn't use like, Christian terms or Islamic terms or.
- [32:18]
Kevin Smith
Look, I, I, you know, I don't believe in this traditional structure or the idea of heaven that given as a kid, which is like, wonderful. But I do believe, man, that. And I don't think this is anything that hasn't been said before, that energy is neither created nor destroyed.
- [32:36]
Penn Badgley
So of course, yeah, yeah.
- [32:37]
Kevin Smith
It's always around us and people die. Yes, that happens. But nobody's ever truly gone because they just dissipate and then that energy is out there. And. And I feel like when you talk about the dead that you're an antenna. You bring that energy. It's not even. My cosmology is based on Pixar's cocoa. Of course. If you've seen that movie, kids, that's what I believe.
- [32:59]
Nava
That's what happens when we die.
- [33:00]
Sophie
Guys, come on, honestly.
- [33:03]
Nava
Yeah.
- [33:03]
Kevin Smith
Is way better than the one I was given as a kid. I was like, I like this. And plus they got a killer song that Remember Me that'll break up even a robot, for heaven's sake.
- [33:12]
Nava
That's so good.
- [33:13]
Kevin Smith
When I almost died from the heart attack seven years ago, you know, I get wheeled into the, into the ER and the doctor, Dr. Layton, I'm. Guy saved my life.
- [33:23]
Penn Badgley
Life.
- [33:23]
Kevin Smith
He's like, you're having a widowmaker heart attack right now. That's kind of how heart attack you're having. I said, what does that mean? And he goes, seriously? I have to explain it. He goes, fine. He goes, you have 100% blockage across the front of your heart. In 80% of the cases, the patient always dies, but you're going to be in the 20% because I'm good at my job. And he disappeared into my crotch and made magic. That's how they get to your heart. They go through your femoral artery and stuff. So while he was doing that, you know, I'm in looking up at the ceiling and looking around the room. And I was like, this might be it. This is the moment you've been terrified of your whole life. This could be the last room you ever see. This might be the last ceiling you ever see. And, you know, so here it is. You've been waiting Your whole life for this moment. Start the movie, you know, start. See, let's let your life go flash for your eyes. And before I could do that, I was like, well, wait a second, is there a chance I get out of this? Like he said 20%. That's pretty low. I was like, maybe prayer would help that. And then I figured like, if I started praying, God might be like, huh, you made dogma you. And I didn't want to presume upon that relationship at the desperate hour. But I feel like as I get older, I will re embrace my faith totally one day. But it just feels cheap that it's going to be like when I'm old and I'm desperate and I need it.
- [34:40]
Nava
Kevin, we have. I'm going to pre penn. I've never done this before, but I'm going to preview you three questions. I feel like you're such a good storyteller, you'll weave them all together. But we have three classic questions that we ask every guest. So you'll tell us the story that brings them all together. So one is tell your first love and first heartbreak. Another is like an embarrassing, cringy memory from when you were 12, 13. And then the final question we ask everyone is what advice would they give or what would they say to their 12 year old selves if they could spend a little time with them. So if you can kind of bring those three together, I think you can do it.
- [35:12]
Penn Badgley
And I think this all home. I think you're right, I can.
- [35:16]
Kevin Smith
And it's so weird that you talk about it because I'm here in the right place. So here we are in Atlantic Islands, New Jersey at what is now Smog Castle Cinemas, but used to be the Atlantic Highlands Twin Cinema is what it was called it for most of my life it was one single screen. And then right around the time Scarface came out, they took one of the rows of seats away, built a hallway and added a second theater, which was everything in our world. They're like, oh my God, there's a second candy counter in Atlantic and shit. It was all the news. So my first love is Kim Locke, my high school girlfriend, who is in a lot of the movies I made. She's in Clerks and whatnot. And she grew up here in Atlantic. So she was the reason I spent a lot of my childhood here in Atlantic. When I wasn't going to this movie theater with my father, I was usually going with Kim Loughran. If you said. The last movie I made came out last year, it was called the 4:30 movie. It was about, like, our first date at this movie theater. So we retroed it back to what it looked like when we were kids and whatnot. And I kind of told that story. So in the theater here, I got hanging up on the wall behind me the something I found because I keep everything and. And this. Let's see if I can get it on there. You might not see it's a reflection, but it says reflection. Kevin. Dirty Dancing is downtown. The Atlantic Twin Cinema. Please take your skirt sporting loving girlfriend to see it. I love you, Kim. That is the theater that we're talking about, like, right here. And so I. I found that note and I hung it up because this is the theater that, like, built my ideas of romance, right? Like, this is not just, like, me actually dating somebody, but this is where I saw Valley Girl, man. Martha Coolidge really set the tone for me for the rest of my life, where I was like, all right, this is what romance is and stuff. So Kim was my absolute first love and whatnot. And we still in each other's lives, and we've known each other for years and whatnot. But we broke up in high school and then got back together kind of after high school, but eventually broke up for good because. And this is so, like, weird now to think about, she was in college at this point when we broke up, and she was like, you just don't have any ambition anymore. She's like, you know, you used to do all the plays in high school, you wanted to write for Saturday Night Live when you were young, and now you don't do anything. You just hang out with your friends Brian and Walter and J. Muse, and, you know, you stop showing any sort of ambition.
- [37:58]
Penn Badgley
Wow.
- [37:58]
Kevin Smith
And she was, you know, in an ambitious world. She was going to college. She knew people who were doing things when we were dating, and I was bringing her here and we were hanging out and whatnot. I was, you know, interesting because, like, I was one of a kind in our little small town. But when Kim went to college, she met a lot of Kevin Smiths from all over the world, man, who were just as interesting, if not far more so. And. And so, you know, realizing that, like, oh, my God, my. My. My shtick doesn't work anymore because there are others out there like me. I have to, for lack of a better term, up my game. And the desire to be interesting to Kim again is what built all of this. Like, me going to make Clerks and all of that was just like, well, I gotta show ambition and stuff. And then, ironically, in the process, we just kind of went our separate ways again. Friends still, and we know each other very well. But, you know, the person who set me on the path that didn't get to take the journey, you know, with me, even though they were the one that was just like, you really need to be you. Like, she reminded me, kick me in the pants. So, you know, the movie theater here is. Is the Trapped in Time. The seats in theater one are the exact same seats I sat in when I went, you know, on a. On my first movie date with Kim Lugan, where I sat with my father when I was a kid. They're uncomfortable as. That's why nobody comes here to go to the car, Mikey. Down the street because they. Those layback seats and like that.
- [39:33]
Nava
I love that you're advertising it.
- [39:35]
Kevin Smith
I know. Don't go to the car, Mikey. Kids. But it is. It's a nostalgia palace. You know, if you look around the walls, it's all old posters from Kevin Smith movies and. And the wall across from me right here is a mural of all famous people that came from Jersey and whatnot. I spend a lot of time looking backwards.
- [39:53]
Penn Badgley
Do you also have the Mission Impossible, the new Mission Impossible poster behind you too?
- [39:58]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, that's what's coming next, is coming this week and stuff.
- [40:01]
Penn Badgley
So you still, you, you, you play movies there too?
- [40:04]
Kevin Smith
Oh, yeah. We're not just an art house. We got five screens. So it basically all the time, it's new movies and, and you know, this Dogma thing we're doing. Like, I've been on tour with the movie and they were all at AMC theaters, but I was like, I gotta do them at my own theater as well. And they were like, go ahead. And we sold out like five shows. So I'm here for two days doing shows and that's generally what I do. I come back from Los Angeles all the time, once a month and we do like shows. Like the next. One of the next shows we got coming up is Clerks Open all Night, where you come here at 11 o' clock. We lock the doors at midn. And from midnight till 6 in the morning, you watch Clerks. Clerks to Clerks 3. And the 6 in the morning we eat a breakfast catered from Quick Stop and shit. So we like to do stuff like that. That way we can upcharge, man. Because nobody comes to the movies anymore. I don't know if anybody told you, but film exhibitions and I have heard the toilet. Yeah, it's pretty tough. So you got to figure out ways to have people come and Stuff. But yeah, we get new movies all the time in this place. Most people just come like, you know, we have five sold out dog screens. So over the course of the five screenings, two last night and three today, a thousand people coming through this. Wow. So as a lot of popcorn. And that's how you keep a movie theater open, selling popcorn, snacks and stuff. But yeah, we do, we do new movies. Kids, if you're looking for a new movie, come to Smog Castle Cinemas, located not near anything convenient.
- [41:21]
Penn Badgley
Hey, listen, maybe your numbers are going to finally skyrocket.
- [41:25]
Kevin Smith
This could be my moment, man.
- [41:27]
Penn Badgley
So, so, so we'll go to our final question.
- [41:31]
Nava
Embarrassing story.
- [41:32]
Penn Badgley
No, that's what I was gonna say through the embarrassing, embarrassing story. Let's. I would love to hear an embarrassing story from this time. And then.
- [41:37]
Kevin Smith
Oh my God, when, when I, when I had to go through the file cabinet. This is the only thing in the filing cabinet in the folder of my cringe moments where I still to this day, it. It gives me hives. So there was a girl in our town. She lived one street over from, from us. Her name was Paige Newman. And I, the young Kevin Smith, referred to as a tough question girl. She was a bully. She wasn't really, but she was just more harsh than most people I dealt with at that age and stuff. So Paige Newman, like whenever I was walking by her house, if she was outside, I crossed the street to walk past her house and stuff like that. Just didn't want to get called out by her, especially around in front of people. So one day I'm at our Catholic school, Olph, Our Lady Perpetual Help. And you know, we wore uniforms, so slacks on the boys, white shirts, green ties, green sweaters. And the girls wore jumpers, you know, green checkered, white and green checkered jumpers. So I'm on the playground and this is my world, right? This is where I go to school. I know everybody got it wired. Our class sizes are very small and like that, no more than like 20 per class. So I know everybody at Olph, even though I'm in at this point, kids, fourth grade, I'm nine years old. Once again, a terrible thing happened when I was not around the corner on the parking lot where all the kids like play during lunch. And Paige Newman is standing there wearing a jumper like she's part of Olph. So the person that lives by my house, and for years, I wouldn't go so far as to call her my bully, but I was scared of her for years and stuff is standing right in front of me. And she's entered my world and she's going to be there on a regular basis based on the fact that she's wearing this jumper. And my first reaction is this. I go, you're in our school. You're in our school. You're in our school. And I start dancing and clapping and going, you're in our school. And get away from there. Still, to this day gives me cringe. Thinking about that was the best I could do. You're in our school. Oh.
- [43:51]
Nava
Oh, my God.
- [43:53]
Kevin Smith
What? As the kids would say today, a cuck. Which for my money is not necessarily a bad thing, but oh, my God, what a soft boy. Yeah.
- [44:02]
Nava
The amazing thing is, if you're just listening, Kevin has turned to bright red and it's still thinking about it.
- [44:09]
Kevin Smith
This will be the next thing I discuss with my therapist. Kid.
- [44:13]
Nava
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Sophie
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- [49:48]
Nava
Well that brings us to our last question. Kevin Pen. Do you want to ask Kat?
- [49:52]
Penn Badgley
Sure. Yeah. If you could go back to 12 year old Kevin, what would you say or do?
- [49:57]
Kevin Smith
If anything, I'd give a way better lines than you're in our school. I'll tell you that. I'd be like here's a hundred things you could say. It makes more sense. You know what I would tell them? Change nothing. Because what you do from now until the moment I take over is gets us where we're going. I love, love young Kev Smith because he made some weird decision that old Kev Smith never would make. I don't know why he believed in himself so much, why he thought like he could make a movie never having done that before. And but that kid who was so like run of the mill and never finished anything with the exception of high school and, and had given up, you know, according to his high school girlfriend, lost his ambition for some reason. And now we, we know partly mostly to impress Kim, for some reason felt he could pull it off and went for it. And because he did, I have lived like this, me personally who is separate from that kid have lived like a dream existence. I walked into like a table that he set for me and sat down and as the kids say, I ate, you know what I'm saying for the last like 30 years. So I would tell 12 year old Kevin Smith like shit's gonna happen and some of it's gonna break your heart and, and you're always going to feel this weird Emptiness. It's always going to bug you if your friends do a thing and don't call you. And how you work all of that out is you event. I can't tell you what happens, but it all adds up to what you become. And if I tell you what we become, you'd be so happy about it. I just don't want to tell you how the sausage is made. You need to see that yourself. And that then I got. I'll be holding on to the mantle for you. I'll be. I can't wait to give it back to you when you get there.
- [51:44]
Penn Badgley
That's. That's so well said. You're also such a filmmaker because you don't want to spoil it for little Kevin.
- [51:49]
Nava
Yeah, yeah, I do.
- [51:50]
Kevin Smith
I'm like, oh, my God, there's such an adventure.
- [51:54]
Penn Badgley
I'm not going to ruin it for you.
- [51:55]
Kevin Smith
The third act, the thing I always tell kids when I go, like, I'm out there talking because the older you get, it's easier to, like, pass on what you've learned. And, you know, people take it more seriously than when you were a kid. And most of the time, whenever I get to talk to folks, I'm always telling them, like, you know, I hate to be this. I don't want to be Tony Robbins. But, like, you literally mind is the creator, for heaven's sakes. And you kind of get to set the tone. And it doesn't mean you get to write your own ticket in the world. And you definitely. You never get what you want on the schedule you wanted. Like, you're lucky, and you do get it, but it's never at the time time you want it, but at the end of the day, why not try? Why not, like, die on the cross of originality, of doing the thing that you dream about rather than waiting? And, like, I got this kid, right? Like Harley. She's 26. She's about to turn 26. And for years, man, even when she was a little kid, she would watch icarly. And I was the kind of dad, I was like, well, you can watch icarly, Carly, or you can write an icarly. One of them is more fun, you know, And I've always been kind of pushing her. She became an actor, and she, like, goes out, like every actor, hat in hand, you know, doing auditions and self tapes, trying to get jobs. And I'm always like, why are you going out there and asking somebody else to, like, give you your future? Like, write your own ticket, man? Like, you don't. Don't wait for somebody to give you permission to make your dream come true. You could go do. Do it like people making movies all the time. And I. I know a guy that just balls used to live in who did the very same thing. So, like, don't wait to be picked, kids. No help is ever coming. Pick yourselves, man, and drive that train. Get in and start driving. Don't wait for assistance. Sadly, there may be none, but that's true. You find some. Why not people, man? I always tell cats, like, you know, the world is full of why you tell people, I want to do a thing. First thing, you're not greeted with those on a course. You're greeted with a big floppy dick of why? In the face. Like, why. Why do you think you could do that? Why do you. Why are you saying this all of a sudden? Why do you feel that when I don't. Why are you acting this way, like people are suspect? Because the world's a crab pot and if you climb out of it, there are a thousand legs to pull you back down. Because God forbid you went somewhere and reminded people that they could do the same thing but just didn't stuff. So you try to get something done. You surround yourself with why not people. So if you're like, I want to try this thing, I want to step outside my box, do a thing I'm not known for doing. You want to help. And they'll be like, yeah, why not? That sounds cool. Why not? I wasn't going to do anything. Subjug off. Why not? Let's do that. That's better. You surround yourself with why not individuals. You don't need much more than that. Kids like you just find yourself a little congregation. You build yourself a church, a very small chapel. And then slowly, over a lifetime, you turn it into your own cathedral, man. And as it breaks the sky, you're going to hear from people who have all sorts of criticisms about how you're building your cathedral wrong. Ignore them. Go for the sky.
- [54:54]
Penn Badgley
He he says in front of a poster of himself.
- [54:56]
Nava
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:57]
Kevin Smith
That was fun. Oh my God. I enjoyed the out of that question.
- [54:59]
Penn Badgley
Yeah, man. Thank you. Thank you much. It's such a pleasure.
- [55:02]
Nava
Kevin, this is such a pleasure. You're such an epic storyteller, obviously, but really, even just on the podcast, really one of already one of my favorite guests. You can watch Dogma in theaters now and you can keep up with Kevin Smith online at that Kevin Smith podcrust.
- [55:17]
Sophie
Is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at La Monada. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon music with your prime members membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.
- [55:35]
Kevin Smith
You know what they told me when I was in the nut house, man? It was really useful. They said, you know, we get trapped by our thoughts, but they're like, your thoughts aren't your own. You like to think that your thoughts are your own. You generate them, but you don't. You generate a very small percentage of your actual thoughts. They said, think about, think about it as standing under a shower head. Like all those drops, like, are different thoughts and that's happening constantly. And some of them, them come from people you'll never meet. You're having thoughts that were started by people in your DNA chain, your genetic chain, totally. That have nothing to do with you, man. So it's important to, you know, we need to think, but it's important to stay at it. Sometimes you got to step out of the shower, you know what I'm saying? And how we do that art, like listening to the podcast. I'm sure you got a bunch of people out there you're making healthy with this alone. Making movies, writing books, hell, crocheting, making a cupcake that somebody loves. Make stuff. Kids, two paths in this life. Creation, destruction. Be a creature, creator.
- [56:33]
Nava
That's so true.
- [56:34]
Penn Badgley
That's nice.
- [56:35]
Sophie
I love that.
- [56:35]
Penn Badgley
I love that. For a final line.
- [56:40]
Nicole Norfleet
Hey, I'm Nicole Norfleet.
- [56:42]
Penn Badgley
And I'm Erin Brown. And we work at the Minnesota Star Tribune.
- [56:45]
Nicole Norfleet
And we've got a brand new show called Worth It.
- [56:47]
Penn Badgley
Every week we get together with a group of people who know Minnesota inside and out.
- [56:51]
Nicole Norfleet
We skip the Minnesota nights and get right to the good stuff. We share the stories and the happenings around the state. Worth your time and your money.
- [56:59]
Penn Badgley
Worth it.
- [57:00]
Kevin Smith
From the Minnesota Star Tribune and Lemonada.
- [57:02]
Nicole Norfleet
Media every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:10]
Kevin Smith
Tired of the same old political shouting.
- [57:12]
Nicole Norfleet
Matches and talking points? Looking for thoughtful conversations that go beyond the headlines and help you understand issues that matter.
- [57:19]
Sophie
I'm Sarah.
- [57:19]
Nicole Norfleet
And I'm Beth.
- [57:20]
Sophie
Together we host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast.
- [57:23]
Kevin Smith
Where we bring grace, nuance and perspective to the news. Because democracy deserves more than hot takes.
- [57:28]
Nicole Norfleet
Join us as we approach politics and current events with curiosity, empathy, and a commitment to understanding the bigger picture. If you want to stay informed without.
- [57:35]
Sophie
The anxiety, we're the show for you.
- [57:37]
Nicole Norfleet
New episodes drop on Tuesdays and Fridays. Subscribe to Pantsuit Politics. Wherever you get your podcast.