Naomi Ackie

Summary

Podcast Summary: Podcrushed – Episode Featuring Naomi Aki

Release Date: July 9, 2025
Guest: Naomi Aki
Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavlan, Sophie Ansari
Description: Podcrushed explores the tumultuous journey of adolescence through stories and conversations about middle school experiences. In this episode, guest Naomi Aki delves into her personal growth, challenges with fame, and the profound impact of friendship and family on her life.

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1. Introducing Naomi Aki

The episode begins with the hosts warmly welcoming Naomi Aki, highlighting her impressive acting portfolio, including roles in "Star the Rise of Skywalker," "Blink Twice," and her portrayal of Whitney Houston in "I Want to Dance with Somebody." Naomi's newest project, the A24 film "Sorry Baby," is also introduced as a must-watch for listeners.

2. Early Life and Shyness ([05:36] - [07:19])

Naomi recounts her childhood as an exceptionally shy 12-year-old. Her mother enrolled her in various activities like drama and tap dancing, which Naomi found challenging due to abandonment issues and her innate shyness. Despite these struggles, Naomi developed a deep love for reading fantasy novels, immersing herself in worlds like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and Wheel of Time.

Naomi Aki [06:00]: "I was really into fantasy. I started with Harry Potter and suddenly I was like completely immersed in the fantasy world realm."

3. Finding Confidence through Acting ([07:19] - [10:07])

Naomi's first significant performance was playing Angel Gabriel in a school nativity play. This experience was transformative, providing her with the confidence she desperately needed. She creatively infused a rap into her role, showcasing her early artistic instincts.

Naomi Aki [08:25]: "This was such a flex in my school... I spent the whole evening writing a rap of Angel Gabriel telling Mary."

The performance was met with overwhelming applause, marking the beginning of Naomi's identity as the "drama girl" and the "theater kid," roles that bolstered her self-esteem.

4. Family Dynamics and Being the Youngest Child ([46:08] - [48:52])

Discussing her role as the youngest of three children, Naomi reflects on how this position influenced her behavior and coping mechanisms. Being the "baby" of the family, she adopted the role of the sweet, well-behaved child to maintain harmony within the household.

Naomi Aki [46:24]: "I decided that my role was going to be the sweet one... there was safety in being the one who goes, 'Oh, she's fine.'"

This dynamic led her to seek control and express herself through acting, allowing her to navigate family conflicts by immersing herself in performance.

5. Approach to Fame and Burnout ([12:03] - [24:56])

Naomi candidly discusses her complicated relationship with fame. Despite initial desires for recognition, she found the pressures of fame to be burdensome and alienating. This realization led her to recognize a burnout cycle, prompting her to take a much-needed break from acting.

Naomi Aki [13:24]: "I recognized that I'm in a kind of burnout cycle and I need to rectify it and stop for a while."

She emphasizes the importance of de-glamorizing the acting profession, advocating for authenticity and the prioritization of personal well-being over public image.

Naomi Aki [21:36]: "I just think there should be more people talking about that. This is a job, but it's not my life."

Naomi credits her late mother for instilling in her the value of craft over fame, teaching her that artistic pursuits should be driven by passion rather than the pursuit of recognition.

6. Reflections on First Love and Heartbreak ([33:53] - [43:57])

Naomi opens up about her first love and heartbreak, intertwining these experiences with personal loss. Her first romantic relationship coincided with her mother's passing, making the heartbreak particularly poignant and complex.

Naomi Aki [39:45]: "I was holding onto that first love in a way that... it took me a very long time to work my way through that heartbreak."

This painful period led Naomi to become detached from the idea of relationships, further fueling her workaholic tendencies. However, she eventually found balance and a fulfilling partnership, which helped her appreciate the beauty in everyday life.

Naomi Aki [43:03]: "I want to spend time with you, I want to share things with you. That gives us the choice. It's more romantic to me to want to be together and choose to be together than to need to."

7. Current Projects and Creative Process ([54:23] - [71:36])

Naomi discusses her latest project, "Sorry Baby," describing it as a deeply honest narrative about healing, friendship, and the human experience. Filmed during a strike, the project allowed her to explore authentic emotions and the complexities of grief.

Naomi Aki [56:12]: "Something bad has happened to Agnes. This story is about the slowness of healing... love and healing and support and humor in the tragedy."

She touches on her method acting approach, particularly her challenges in portraying Whitney Houston. Naomi openly shares the personal toll it took, including extreme weight loss and the subsequent body dysmorphia, underscoring the sacrifices made for her craft.

Naomi Aki [62:37]: "I lost about 30 pounds in five months. It was extremely reckless of me to do, and I wouldn't do it again."

Naomi emphasizes the importance of maintaining personal well-being over professional demands, advocating for healthier approaches to acting and fame.

8. Advice to Her Younger Self ([71:13] - [71:40])

In a heartfelt closing segment, Naomi shares what she would tell her 12-year-old self. She expresses a desire to offer comfort and wisdom, encouraging her younger self to stay aware, keep her eyes open, and know how to rest.

Naomi Aki [71:13]: "I would give her the biggest hug. I would just give her a really, really big hug and be like, 'Alright, buckle in, stay aware, keep your eyes open and know how to rest.'"

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Key Takeaways:

• Overcoming Shyness: Naomi's early experiences in acting provided her with the confidence to navigate a challenging childhood.
• Navigating Fame: She advocates for prioritizing personal well-being over the pressures of fame, highlighting the importance of authenticity.
• The Role of Friendship and Family: Deep friendships and a supportive family played a crucial role in Naomi's healing and personal growth.
• Healthy Perspectives on Love: Naomi evolved from viewing love as a need to seeing it as a choice, which has positively impacted her relationships.
• Authentic Storytelling: Her current projects focus on genuine human experiences, emphasizing the importance of honest storytelling in art.

Notable Quotes:

• Naomi Aki [08:25]: "This was such a flex in my school... I spent the whole evening writing a rap of Angel Gabriel telling Mary."
• Naomi Aki [21:36]: "I just think there should be more people talking about that. This is a job, but it's not my life."
• Naomi Aki [43:03]: "I want to spend time with you, I want to share things with you. That gives us the choice. It's more romantic to me to want to be together and choose to be together than to need to."

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Conclusion: In this episode of Podcrushed, Naomi Aki offers an intimate glimpse into her personal and professional journey. From battling shyness and navigating the complexities of fame to finding solace in genuine relationships and authentic storytelling, Naomi's story is both inspiring and relatable. Her candid reflections serve as valuable insights for anyone grappling with identity, purpose, and the pursuit of passion.

Transcript

[Naomi Aki]

Lemonade.

[Nava Kavlan]

Do you remember any of the rap, by any chance?

[Naomi Aki]

Of course I do. Okay. It goes like this. Yeah, we have silver angels. As you can tell, the nativity show may ring a little bell. If you look in the Bible, you will see a face of Jesus and Mary as happy as can be. But, hey, he's an all star. This is amazing. Just imagine, like, I'm fucking 11 years old. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava Kavlan]

And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been your middle school besties, seeing your favorite.

[Penn Badgley]

Pop star literally ripping your heart out and actually throwing it at their literal face because you love them so much. Welcome to PodCrushed. How are you doing? Today? I am joined by my dear co hosts, Nava Kavlan and Sophie Ansari. That was a rhetorical question aimed at our listener slash viewer in case Nava, for those who aren't watch. She just sort of, like, laughed and shook her head like, who are you talking to? And why didn't you let us.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah, yeah. It was like, who is the.

[Nava Kavlan]

How are you doing for.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, they can pause it and they can answer. Sometimes people tell me that they listen to our podcast, and every time we ask the guest a question, they talk back and answer it themselves.

[Nava Kavlan]

Is that your mom?

[Naomi Aki]

Is that a Helen And Dale, she doesn't listen.

[Penn Badgley]

So, listener, assuming that you have paused and answered the question, we're doing great. We're doing great over here. We're just, like, just living on cloud nine.

[Nava Kavlan]

I have a question. Another question that people can pause and answer. Question for you guys, too. A moment in this episode where the lovely Naomi shares this, like, moment where she goes to her mom and she's like, mom, I want to be famous. And I'm curious if you guys ever had a moment like that where you were like, mom, Dad, I wanna. Something where you just had this, like, moment of seeing.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I. I did say, at about 4 years old, I want to be a singer on a dancer stage.

[Nava Kavlan]

A singer on a dance singer on a dancer stage.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I loved dancing. I absolutely love dancing. And I did love singing. And I mean, you know, something about. I mean, that was the era of Michael Jackson, of course, and. Well, you know, actually, I write about this in the book. I do write about this in the.

[Nava Kavlan]

Book, but also, you could perform on. You could sing on Dancing with the Song Stars. You'd be a singer on a dancer stage.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, you're saying I could go on dancing with the Stars and sing.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yeah, they have a musical. They have people sing live. Sometimes they do allow that. Oh, that happens sometimes.

[Sophie Ansari]

I did one. I said to my parents many times, I want many things, but one that comes to mind is I want to play the violin. I was desperate to play the violin. And they were like, absolutely not. I think they did not want to hear the.

[Nava Kavlan]

Wow. I really. I think I was 14. I told my dad, I want to be a broadcast journalist. And this dream was alive until I was 18. And then I read a book about it, and then it was like, they made such little money. I think honestly, it was a very materialistic. That deterred me, but I was.

[Sophie Ansari]

So then you were like, I want to become a teacher.

[Nava Kavlan]

And then I was like, I'm going to go into that much. Actually, that actually was it. I was like, they made about as much money as teachers. And I was like, well, if I'm going to make this much money, I don't know why I wasn't like, I should just make more money. Like, then I should become a teacher. It's like, less work. I'll have summers off, whatever. Anyway, both. Both sound really like, lame reasons to pick jobs. But Pod Crushed, I feel like is the closest that I'll ever come to being a broadcast journalist about some of that.

[Penn Badgley]

That's true.

[Nava Kavlan]

I do the research and, you know, some of the elements. I'm living out my. My childhood dream.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, sort of.

[Sophie Ansari]

Tommy, sort of.

[Nava Kavlan]

Oh, Tommy really wanted.

[Sophie Ansari]

He wanted it.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

He was thinking about my parents.

[Naomi Aki]

I'm so sorry.

[Penn Badgley]

Your parents.

[Nava Kavlan]

He was very sad when I gave.

[Penn Badgley]

You from the arts. Then you're like, fine, I'll draw. I'll just draw here at home.

[Sophie Ansari]

Let's get to Naomi.

[Penn Badgley]

Scribble that. Yeah. Let's get to our. Our lovely guest. She really was lovely. Is lovely. I shouldn't say in the past tense. We have today Naomi Aki, incredibly talented, who you might know from Star the Rise of Skywalker, Blink Twice. More recently, possibly most iconically, she did play Whitney Houston in I Want to Dance with Somebody. A remarkable performance. She's been in shows like End of the Effing World as well as Master of None. Her newest project is the A24 film Sorry Baby. And I mean, what more do I need to say? It's an A24 film, right? And it's got Naomi in it. We loved having her here today. You will too. Don't go anywhere.

[Unknown]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada.

[Naomi Aki]

Shows without the ads?

[Unknown]

Subscribe to Lemonada premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Nava Kavlan]

You'Ll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better.

[Unknown]

With David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman podcast.

[Nava Kavlan]

And so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to.

[Unknown]

A smoother, uninterrupted listening experience.

[Nava Kavlan]

Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe.

[Unknown]

Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's just start with a snapshot. 12 years old.

[Naomi Aki]

How.

[Penn Badgley]

How were you? How. How was 12 year old Naomi seeing the world? What was day to day life like?

[Naomi Aki]

You know, 12 year old Naomi was extremely shy. I had it like my mum would actually put me in like loads of different, like little, you know, we called it Saturday school at home, which is like little drama school on a weekend where you go and you learn how to sing, dance, act. I remember around that age, like my mom took me to a tap dancing class that I only survived one lesson because she left me. I had abandonment issues and she left me and I cried the entire time. Did not learn how to tap, which is a shame. So I was really shy. But I was obsessed with reading and I was really good at being alone, so I, I would probably read. I was really into fantasy. I started with Harry Potter and suddenly I was like completely immersed in like the fantasy world realm. So like everything from like Lord of the Rings to Wheel of Time, which is now a TV show which I'm just like quite excited about. Read like a book a week. I was just absorbing so much and living very much in my head. And I guess at that time then, yeah, yeah, I was in year seven, which is like 11:12. But I was always the youngest. In my year was when I did my first performance, which I played Angel Gabriel in a Christmas. In a Christmas play.

[Nava Kavlan]

What a crowd.

[Naomi Aki]

About the Lord Jesus Christ. And I.

[Penn Badgley]

What is Angel Gabriel's role in all of that?

[Naomi Aki]

So Angel Gabriel was the one who came down and told Mary that you're pregnant.

[Nava Kavlan]

Were you?

[Naomi Aki]

So did you get to fly? So we didn't get to fly and instead. So this is. No, this was cool because this was such a flex in my school. There was two groups of people. There was the Year Elevens, which is like 15 to 16, and then there was the Year Sevens and I had got my little group of friends together and I was like, okay, we had to audition to play the angels. And I was like, I have such a clear idea of what the angel should be doing. And I was like, guys, I can't believe. At the time, I thought it was, like, so cool. I was like, guys, you know, the Bible is, like, so traditional and like, oh, like, let's insert some rap into this. But it's actually insane when I think about how instinctive the creative impulse is, because that night I went back home and I spent the whole evening writing a rap of Angel Gabriel telling.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's actually amazing.

[Naomi Aki]

It's insane. It's insane. Like, and it was fucking cool. Am I allowed to swear on this?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Naomi Aki]

Is that okay?

[Penn Badgley]

I don't know. I mean, we won't tell your mom.

[Naomi Aki]

But I won't go crazy.

[Nava Kavlan]

Do you remember any of the rap, by any chance?

[Naomi Aki]

Of course I do. Okay. It goes like this. Yeah. We are the Silver Angels. As you can tell, the nativity show may ring a little bell. If you look in the Bible, you will see a face of Jesus and Mary as happy as can be. But, hey, he's an all star. Amazing. It's good. Just imagine, like, I'm fucking 11 years old.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yeah.

[Naomi Aki]

Anyway, we did. We did this kind of like, this kind of rival, like, audition, and we get the part. And I had, like, made them do this whole choreography, and we did the performance, and I can't remember anything but the feeling of the applause when we were done and walking through the school halls. I was at a girls school and people stopping me and going, that was so cool. That was like, stopping me and being like, yo, that's so cool. And I think at that point, I was in a space where I was having to put on the costume of being a confident girl. Like, I think the whole acting thing was from being young. I'm naturally extremely shy. This was like a gateway for me to be that girl. And it was kind of immediate. I was like, oh, that's your identity. You're the drama girl. You're the theater kid. And that's where I got a lot of my confidence from. Because it was always something that felt like it was in me.

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay, so actually, this question started because I saw that you have. Your birthday's November 2nd, is that right?

[Naomi Aki]

No, it's August. It's August 22nd. And it's so funny. This has been going on for years. There's someone on Wikipedia who, whenever I get someone to change, it changes it back. So I keep on getting happ. Birthday is on November 2nd, and someone is insistent that I'm born on that day.

[Penn Badgley]

So I actually have something similar where on Wikipedia. For a while, the Internet thought my. My son's name was James, and his name is not James.

[Naomi Aki]

And his name.

[Penn Badgley]

And. And I would change it. I mean, I wouldn't change it, but somebody would change it and then they would change it back. And I would get people, you know, sending us Christmas cards and stuff, being like, to all the. And they would name James. And I'm like, guys, this kid's name is not James. And his. His name is so far from James as well. It's just. I'm trying to. I'm trying to leave him nameless as long as. As he can be, you know? Cause he's four. But like. But like what?

[Naomi Aki]

I think it could be the same person. I feel like there's someone who's just taking a lot of joy in spreading misinformation.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, I think someone might be out to get you because my daughter was born November 2nd.

[Naomi Aki]

Right.

[Sophie Ansari]

Anytime I would tell people when I was pregnant, people would ask, what's your due date? Literally in the line at the grocery store, I would say November. It was November 5th.

[Naomi Aki]

Was her due date.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'd say November 5th. And they would like, cower. They'd be like, oh, no, she's gonna be a Scorpio. I'm sorry.

[Nava Kavlan]

It was really.

[Sophie Ansari]

And yeah. So whoever's changing your birthday, is that.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah, no, I'm a Leo, but I'm a Leo on the last day of Leo, which is hilarious. My dad is a Leo. If these things are true. My dad is a Leo when the sun in astrological chart is at its highest point. So he's extremely gregarious and confident. Nothing sways him. Whereas I take on a lot of my Virgo side. I'm actually super insular with a big ego, which is a hard mix. A perfectionist with a big ego. Like, I have no idea.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm quiet, but I can rap. I can wrap these bars.

[Nava Kavlan]

That's amazing, Naomi. I clocked the Harry Potter reference, and I heard you in a talk show not so long ago. Talk about a reread. And I was thinking about Mickey 17. And I'm just so curious. And if little Naomi knew that one day she would be starring alongside Cedric Diggory, how do you think she would react?

[Naomi Aki]

Dude, do you know how hard it was not to mention that to him? I think that. Be cool, be cool, be cool. Literally. Be cool, be cool, be cool. I feel like that is the maddest thing. It's like being. This is probably a bad analogy, but it's like being a frog in a pot of slowly boiling Water. You don't realize the changes until you stop and look back, and it is fucking mental. But, you know, I'm actually like. And this is, like, where I'm at now. I'm in a space where I'm taking a big break. Like, I have recognized that I'm in a kind of burnout cycle. And I'm like, okay, I need to rectify it, and I need to stop in this time. Now I'm like, wow, what an amazing privilege and luxury to be able to recognize you're in burnout and choose nominate for yourself to stop for a while.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Naomi Aki]

And that's. That's when I'm like, oh, I'm fucking lucky. And also acknowledging where I've come and how I've. What it's taken to get to that point. Because, yeah, like, going back, I threw myself so deeply into the acting stuff. I got so obsessed, hyper focused on it that, you know, I could argue that I neglected a lot of other very important parts of being a person.

[Penn Badgley]

Which even happens practically, because the shooting hours are just so long. You know, it's like from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep, you're like. You're kind of. You're just doing this. And so it's. It's almost like. It almost is a fundamentally logistical kind of conundrum you find yourself in 100%.

[Naomi Aki]

Especially in America, I must say, like, oh, that's right.

[Penn Badgley]

That's right. You guys have the. Yeah. So the one time I've worked in England, we were like, you know what? We're gonna fucking do American hours. And we just pushed. Was just constantly being pushed. And, you know, so I didn't quite.

[Naomi Aki]

Did he not get the.

[Penn Badgley]

So the first half of the season, we were doing proper British hours, and then we went to French hours with no lunch, which actually, I kind of prefer the no lunch. You just swing right through. Yeah. And then. And. But then by the time we got to the episode, I was, of course, directing. It was like we were weeks behind. Pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. And then. And then I was directing, and I was just like, I have no. There's nothing. There's no space or time for anything else.

[Naomi Aki]

I totally get that. But I like that when I've worked in the States, I'm like, I am bowled over by how people working in America on film sets manage their entire life. I'm like, it is insane, and I think you have to love it. And I was prepared for that at the beginning. I was preparing myself for that. I feel like I look back on my younger self and I'm like, damn, you were like, real serious, lady.

[Penn Badgley]

So wait, so let's actually. Let's go back to your younger self still, because we have. We want to spend some time there. We always do. Yeah, we will get to the rest of your career, but basically, like, give us. Give us a sense of, you know, when. So it sounds like that play actually was your. This moment where something crystallized. But. And then I'm sure it became something of a.

[Naomi Aki]

Of a.

[Penn Badgley]

Not just a hobby, but it was like, of course, the next logical step isn't, I'm gonna do this professionally, but it is, oh, I want to dig in, you know, so, like, give us a sense of that arc.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah. So interestingly, at that time, I. At the same time, I was like, I love acting. Was the same time. I'm gonna mention it again. Harry Potter came out, and I was the same age as the actors growing up. Like, every year it came out, I was exactly the same age. So I had just watched the first film and didn't realize that kids could do it too. Like, that there were, like, kids, like, doing this really fun thing that I had just discovered. So I equated being an actor with being famous. And I remember going to my mom and being like, mom. And I didn't say, I want to be an actor. I said, I want to be famous.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Naomi Aki]

And she was like, what? Like for context, a London living, east London, working class black girl. No connection at all to Hollywood or anything like that. So there was, you know, my parents worked in the public sector, like, completely normal, normal lives. And my mom, who has passed, she passed when I was 22. She was extremely wise, and she was actually a seamstress. It wasn't her main job. It was her hobby and her passion. So she really believed in craft. And, like, immediately was like. She didn't say this, but like, what the hell are you talking about? What the fuck are you talking about? Like, and I remember having this really long lecture from my mom being like, fame doesn't mean anything. Like, fame is something that. It's an illusion. Fame doesn't equal quality, and it doesn't equal. Means that. It doesn't mean that you're better than anyone else. And she was like, if you want to be an actor, you can be an actor in a local theater. You can act anywhere. Aiming for fame is a completely different thing. So at the age of about 12, she was like, if you want to do this, it's about the craft. You have to get to the nitty gritty of it. You have to understand every angle of it, especially because, you know it's gonna be harder to get in there. And so I, you know, I didn't take that well. I remember being like, what the hell is she talking about? I'm seeing these cool kids in Harry Potter walk down a red carpet and be cheered on. I won that, too. And that was kind of my attitude around acting at the time, now I realize was, like, it was the acceptance that I got. It was the love that I received, even though it was temporary and in a controlled environment. It was like, even then, it felt addictive to me and was something I was really craving and hungry for. And so my root in was like, I'm gonna learn the craft so I can get that love. Because, like, it kind of takes away the romance of, like, wanting to be an actor. But, like, I'm just a really honest person. Like, and I understand these things about how my brain worked then, like, I was like, I need that, and I need, more importantly, that acceptance. I felt so out of place in my body and in the world that I was desperate for that.

[Nava Kavlan]

So just a little flash forward. When you started to experience fame, did it feel good? At some points. Like, how did it feel?

[Naomi Aki]

It felt awful. It's not what I wanted. It was. And look, I have a really normal life, more or less, especially living in London. I dip in and I dip out for a reason. I felt uncomfortable. I felt looked at. I felt like I was having to perform myself, which is this weird brain thing where you're like, the thing of having to. The pressure, imagined or otherwise, of having to live up to what people think you should look like and what they want to aspire to. And living in that illusion bubble is weird to me. Like, how do you. Like, how am I as an actor who's telling a story also meant to be someone who's an aspirational figure? Like, I don't want anyone to look up to me. I'm just telling the story. I really just want you to focus on the story. I should be invisible. And that's me personally. It's just not something.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I definitely. I've been thinking about this more and more. Like, I. When I watch things now. I'm sorry, call it what it is. I feel like I'm just. All I can think of is, like, oh, there's that famous person doing it. Delivering a performance. Celebrity culture is actually robbing us of stories because there's. Because, you know, in some ways, Agreed. The craft of cinema is becoming more and more elevated. It's, you know, people are getting more and more specialized. We're capable of more and more, but the stories are full of the same celebrities. And it's. And I'm sorry, it's just like, let's be real. That's what we all think. We're like, wow, yeah. Timmy Chalamet is killing this right now. That is that.

[Naomi Aki]

I also love, love their style of the thing. And, like, the whole idea of branding is just, like, corrupt to me. And I think living, having to play that game, like, also understanding that this job is a business, my body is a business. I started to have a real problem with the fact that I felt like a walking billboard, that I wasn't only supplying a story, but I was supplying a want and a need to get people to want to buy more things.

[Penn Badgley]

So if you could just hold a moment. This episode of PodCrush is brought to you by.

[Naomi Aki]

No, I know. That's the funny thing, right? It's the space in between. Like, how do you create art? How do you work your craft? How do you make money? How do you get people to see it, like, at the same time as all of those things juggling?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Naomi Aki]

And I. Look, the thing is, I love fashion. I love. I love things, you know, and I enjoy the craft of them, but I'm a craftsperson, so, like, even when I go to fashion shows, I'm just obsessed with how the ateliers made the thing. I'm not really thinking about who sat there. I'm like, that's a really fucking cool dress. And, like, the pleating and the thing and, oh, wow. How many hours did it take and what fabric did you use and where did this reference come from? Like, that's just kind of how my brain works.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm just hearing you talk, thinking about that. That conversation that your mom had with you, the lecture that she had with you, and what. You. Tying it back to what you said in the beginning, which is that you recognized you're in this burnout cycle and that you've actually decided to take a little bit of a break. And I was thinking you acknowledge that that's like a privilege in itself to be able to recognize that and then to be able to take a step back. But I also think it says a lot about your frame of mind, too, because I think specifically Hollywood, it seems like there's this. There's like a. Or any. Any job where you're freelancing or, you know, somebody Else is giving you the job. There's this scarcity mindset, or there can be. And then there's also, like, I need to stay relevant, like, oh, my gosh, people's minds. So I feel like I'm so. I think it's admirable that you can be. Like, it shows, like, some security that you have, but also just, like, some detachment. Like, yeah, I can take a step back up so that I can focus on other things in my life. And I'm curious if that comes back to this lecture from your mom and maybe what else you feel like, what other gifts your mom has given you.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah, yeah, I totally, totally agree. Like, it's something. I say this to some of my friends and stuff. Like, if they're going through anything, I'm like, I'm not talking to you right now. I'm talking to, like, the future you. Like, there are some things that, like, seed within us that we can only understand later. Like, I think it feels quite circular that I am in this space, but I definitely had to go through the jungle, as it were, to get back there. I think, like, a big thing and a total, like, scarcity mindset thing and feeling like, the what are you going to do next? And how are you going to impress people? And it fuels this level of insecurity within people. But creativity is an endless source. Like, and it's not necessarily always going to be creativity just through acting. I can be a creative person by, like, I don't know, cooking a meal for someone I love. Or I can be a creative person by just, like, daydreaming for a bit. Like, it's not something that needs to be commodified for me.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I think that's for all people.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. Right.

[Penn Badgley]

I think. I think. Let's not even make a clarification.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah, It's a human truth.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm sorry.

[Naomi Aki]

But, yeah, like, I think my mom, the. The other really amazing thing my mum said was life informs art. And. And she said it at a time where I was so obsessed with acting, it was the only thing I talked about. It was the only thing I did. You know, Like, I'm, you know, 13 to, like, 17. I'm reading monologues and recording myself, doing famous monologues to check whether it was believable. I'm reading through Shakespeare and learning stuff just by myself. I'm Googling American agencies and figuring out how one day I'm going to get an O1 visa.

[Penn Badgley]

You were on it. That's. That's.

[Naomi Aki]

I. I was. Yeah. For A really long stretch of my life. I was so on it. I actually think back now and I'm like, wow, like, thank you. Past Naomi. Like, you really, you really didn't think that, like, I wouldn't just, you know, now being older and a little bit more tired, like, I just. I just don't have that energy anymore. But, yeah, I think, like, there was something in my mum that saw in me that I had the ability to lose myself in something. And so she was always encouraging me that there was other things like that. I remember her being like, there is beauty in the ordinary. There is, like, beauty in everyday things. There is beauty and boredom that the thing that you think is so sparkly isn't as sparkly as you think. May. Like, there was a bit. She knew me in a way that was like, ooh, Nay has the ability to lose herself in this. So actually, when things did start to get more. When I did start to get a bit more well known, I always had that in the back of my head. I. Which, which did allow me over time to keep myself grounded and instinctively know when to step back and go, I really don't need to be at this party. I'm not having a good time. Like, I. I don't need to. I don't need to do this role that I don't believe in, but would put me in a good light in the industry. I don't. If I don't want to do it, I don't have to. Because even if I haven't found all the qualities of life that are special yet, I need to give myself space to do that. I do not want to die thinking, fuck me. I worked every fucking day of the week for this thing. But I missed out on, like, walking down the street and life and children and burning toast and being late for being late for a bus. I don't know. Like, yeah, the real. That's fucking life. Yeah. So I feel pretty passionate about that and also about de glamorizing when I speak on acting in my career, like, de glamorizing it and grounding it. And it's not as fun, I don't think. And it's definitely not as, like, entertaining for a lot of people. But, like, I. I just think there should be more people talking about that. This is. This is a job, but it's not my life.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we'll be right back.

[Penn Badgley]

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[Sophie Ansari]

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[Nava Kavlan]

So my dad and I are planning for a trip to Japan in the fall and I don't know if you know this about me, I may or may not be sometimes a little bit of a nerd, a little bit of an overachiever. So besides just watching some J dramas to. I was gonna say improve my Japanese as. As if there were like a foundation to improve upon, but there's zero going from like zilch to something. What do you call that that anyway, besides just doing that. And yes, I have already started watching some J dramas. I think I might. I think I might pick up some Rosetta Stone. You know, whether you're lounging poolside, hitting the beach or relaxing at home, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to fit in a few minutes of language learning. It's a productive and fun way to make the most of your summer downtime. So why not get extra ready for my time in Japan with my dad? You know, Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning and it has been for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, whenever and wherever it fits in your summer schedule. I'm going to be sneaking in those lessons between poolside sessions, walks with Louie, you know, anywhere I can. What I'm really excited about is there a true accent tool, that speech recognition technology that provides real time feedback, helping me sound more natural. It's like having a personal language coach guiding my accent every step of the way. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now podcast listeners can grab Rosetta Stone lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com podcrush to get started and claim your 50 off off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com podcush and start learning today. Naomi, let's Talk about your life. We will get into your career. But some life things that we do like to talk about on this show. First love, first heartbreak, and any kind of, like, embarrassing memories from childhood.

[Naomi Aki]

Oh, my God, so many. Oh, God. Like, every time I try to be cool, I just wasn't. I went through a phase in London where I was trying to be an emo girl. I was having this whole, like, identity crisis thing. And I just imagine me with, like, plumper skin and, like, a big Afro trying to be an emo girl. It's just like, it doesn't work. And we would. I. I had crushes on guys with very deep fringes, you know, and they did that. The skater boys. Oh, I love me a skater. And at the same time, I was, like, customizing a lot of clothes. Like, I went through this phase of, like, trying to take after my mom and, like, sewing a lot. And so, like. And the awkward thing was, like, being in these spaces that I really didn't, like, bit into, but, like, really trying. Like, going to Camden Lock, which is like, in Camden, there's a canal and, like, drinking loads of Strongbow, which is, like a cider that you can get from a corner shop for, like, like, at the time, like, two quid. Like, and just really trying on these different costumes and really being insistent on being alternative and different. Like, just trying to be, like, so different to what people expected of me. My first crush wasn't a. Like, I went to a girls school. So, like, I didn't have, like, boys my age in my life. My first crush was Daniel Radcliffe. Like, classic and. Yeah, and that was pretty powerful. I feel like that's why I can understand, like, I guess the girls who love the K pop boys. I don't know their names, unfortunately, but, like, I kind of. I think I get that, like, when you're like, what is it, like, 13 to, like, 15? And it hurts. Yeah, you love them so much it hurts. You could just, like, rip out your own fucking heart and, like, chuck it at their faces. Like, you're just like, I know you.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, so do you think. And I guess I'm posing this to maybe everybody on the call right now. I feel like maybe boys don't get that as much because we're not marketed to in the same way. I'm just wondering if, like, the fire of that is turned up and goaded by, you know, because they're packaged very specifically to be like, I'm gonna talk about everything but the sex and act like it's just prepubescent. Love. And I'm gonna dance. And I'm, by the way, 10 years older than you.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You know what I mean? And it's like. It's like you have these man. Children singing to girls, to actual girls, like, their baby, baby, baby, all this in the rain. You know what I mean? And I mean, so I think it makes sense that you're like, I can't.

[Naomi Aki]

Take it, because they're not even being transparent, and. But I love them, and they don't.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, I mean, to me, it's like, it's not just being a girl. I want to give you guys credit. Like, I think it. Right. I mean, isn't there something to that?

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah, I would agree. What do you guys think?

[Sophie Ansari]

You know, we actually were interviewing the Jonas Brothers the other day, and I was watching a documentary, and they. There was, like, a point in their career where they were like, you can win a date with the Jonas Brothers. And they. And there's all these girls in line who are like, I can't wait.

[Naomi Aki]

Like, and they're.

[Sophie Ansari]

I don't know. I was. I was. I knew that that's a thing, obviously, but I was like, wow, it's so, like.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

So in your face. And, you know, I think it's true.

[Naomi Aki]

It's crazy. I totally agree. I feel like, actually we were talking about this today. Ava made a really great point that that time of your life, you live in fantasy a lot. Yeah. And the thing that is amazing about having crushes that are very far away is that it's far enough to not feel threatening, but allows you the space to start stretching those muscles, what you're attracted to, and, like, your first, like, feelings of desire. Yeah. But it's safe. And if the line is ever crossed, like, I'm pretty certain, like, one of those girls who was like, I need a date with the Janice Brothers was also, like, if she sat down across the table, would have nothing to say. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? Because she's 11. And also. But I do think you're right. Like, the marketing of that fantasy is the beginning of the. Of what ends up being. When we're older. You know, everything from, like, God, I need that bag, because if I have that bag, then this lifestyle will unfold itself. Or, lord, I need that. You know, I need that body, because then suddenly I'm gonna be really happy. Like, it is the beginning of those things. If I have this thing, everything will be complete. And I think is that. That kind of win a date with the Jonas Brothers thing is Taking that fantasy and then turning it into something marketable. But I think the fantasy thing is a real thing within itself. What was the other question? So my first love and then first heartbreak. First heartbreak. My first love was actually really complicated. It was when I was in my early 20s. Is that allowed?

[Nava Kavlan]

Whatever.

[Penn Badgley]

Your young people should be boring. No, that's boring. We want something trying.

[Nava Kavlan]

It's actually way more interesting. It is if you're open. We're open, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, we're totally open to it.

[Naomi Aki]

My first love, I would think I was about 20. No, 21. I was a really late bloomer. I was actually quite scared of boys.

[Penn Badgley]

Is that partly because of the. Because you went to all girls school for a long time, is that right?

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah, yeah. Until I was younger. 16.

[Penn Badgley]

Like from. From the early days, too?

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah. No, so primary school, it was a mixed school and that was fine. And then from the ages of 11 to 16, I was at girls school and totally lost my confidence. Had no idea how to talk. Talk to boys. And then I went to drama school, which was like. I don't know what you guys call it here. Conservatory.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Naomi Aki]

And then I was amongst, like, so many boys who were amazing. They're still my friends to this day, but was, like, trying to get used to it. And I met my first boyfriend at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, and it was kind of a whirlwind situation that lasted far too long. I don't know why you keep going back. There's no point. And that. He was also my first heartbreak. And it was around, you know, it was slightly more complicated because it was around the time that my mum passed, so there was a. It was bittersweet. And I think I was also holding onto that first love in a way that I think, like a young person without any of that trauma wouldn't have potentially. And it took me, you know, it took me a very long time to work my way through that heartbreak. It was actually very complicated because it was mixed up with. With grief. So that was. It was just like a. It was a whole. You know, my 20s was a whole time of divorcing myself from that pain. But, like, the big. You know, afterwards, actually, it wasn't. I kind of went the opposite way. I became quite detached from the idea of relationships and love and the fantasy of. Of being with someone safe and kind and all of that. And I was like, you know what? I can do it all myself. And actually, that's. That's when the workaholic part really rammed in. And I. I was like, I don't need to go home. I need to do a job after job after job. I. I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life. And, you know, now, 33 years old, happily, I'm. I have a wonderful partner. And that has totally calmed down. And that has actually probably been the thing that's helped me to pause and be like, ah, there's so much beauty in the world. Like, you don't have to run on the treadmill. But, yeah, it's just the concept I think was so interesting when you're young is the how your attitude to love changes. Like, I think when I was young and at first love, it was a deep need. It was kind of like maybe the. The crush thing of like, oh, God, ninja. Yeah, like that thing of, like a fantasy, but, like, maybe toned down just a little bit, but that. The need. I've never felt a need so strong in my life. And I don't think, you know, I think, like, when it comes to, like, love and stuff, I think it should be a want.

[Penn Badgley]

Definitely not.

[Naomi Aki]

Not a need. Like, need. I need water, I need air, I need a home to live in, and I need clothes on my back. But the need thing puts it into this ownership, possession, grabby feeling that I think can feel. Make someone else potentially feel quite claustrophobic. Whereas, I'm happy to say now I'm in a space of one. I want to spend time with you, I want to share things with you. And. And hey, that gives us the choice. It's more romantic to me to want to be together and choose to be together than to need to. That feels eventually destructive, at least of your own identity.

[Sophie Ansari]

When you need it so much, then you can overlook, at least in my case, you overlook so many things that if it was just a want, you'd be able to be like, I don't want that.

[Naomi Aki]

The red flags were flagging. There were so many. Look, I can't even go too deep into it because this is about to be broadcasted everywhere. The red flags were fucking flagging. Like, are you insane, Naomi? I just sometimes wish, like, if everyone had the power to, like, have a time machine, like, they would just go back and just, like, hold yourself by the scruff of the neck and be like, what are you thinking? You know? But it is mad. That thing where you just have that rose tinted glasses, It's a real thing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And you know it, but you choose not to know it. And that's mental to me.

[Penn Badgley]

Question I have about your sort of upbringing. We didn't touch on, you know, I don't know how much. Definitely don't need you to go into like, intense detail with your. With your family and stuff. Want things to remain private, however much you want that. But are you the baby of three children? Is that right? The youngest of three children. So as an only child, I mean, I do have shout out to my half sister Jenny, but we are 17 years apart. We are both only children.

[Naomi Aki]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

These two have siblings. They're very much.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm the baby of three as well.

[Naomi Aki]

You have a baby?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So I'm just curious how that, like, you know, you were saying, you were saying before, and this can maybe launch us into the career bit. You know, you were saying something. How did you phrase it? You said, yo, you wanted that love. You wanted the acceptance and love that you felt kind of that. That first turn at 11 years old as Angel Gabriel. Shout out to Angel Gabriel, by the way, also delivering the career to Muhammad. Telling Mary. Right? Rapping bars. This man has bars. He's like, he's just delivering constantly. I just want. I just want to say that. So that love, though, that love, that. And I mean, obviously your mother, it obviously sounds like there's so much love in your family. Of course, that always looks and feels so many different ways. I'm curious just like, what you think being the baby of the family contributed to that, if at all?

[Naomi Aki]

Oh, man. Yeah. Like so. So my brother is 10 years older than me. Okay. We didn't live together. He's my half brother. And then my sister lived with us, but seven years older than me.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Naomi Aki]

She's also my half sister, but like, you know, I just call him brothers and sisters.

[Sophie Ansari]

The.

[Naomi Aki]

I think the interesting thing about being the youngest is like, you know, your parents have done it before, so they're like dab hand at it. They get it. And I think they're older, so maybe more tired. But also, I guess within my family dynamic, I came from a home where people were actively healing and I was seeing it happen. And that's not always a pretty thing to witness. You know, there was, as any family, arguing and conflict. And I think as the youngest, you. And I think every family member holds a role. I, out of a survival technique, decided that my role was going to be the sweet one. There is safety in being the one who goes, oh, she's fine because she's always well behaved. And, you know, I was told at a very young age, oh, God, you're so cute. You're just so sweet. And then, you know, being the Baby, that's something that usually happens. And so that kind of pattern of survival, you know, that every kind of families are so strange in that way that everyone knows what their role needs to be to keep. Uphold the. Uphold. I don't know the family dynamic. That to me was the thing about being the youngest. It was like, I need to be well behaved. I need to be quiet. I need to not cause a ruckus because everyone's dealing with something and I can't add to that thing. So if anything, the love I was trying to receive, even though I had huge amounts of love from my family, was a very specific type of love because it was something that I was controlling myself. There was a power in being able to dictate how people were loving me and why. There was something really attractive about how contained it was to a performance, not to who I was. It was. I think I. I had this. Does that make sense?

[Penn Badgley]

It does.

[Naomi Aki]

I don't know if that makes sense.

[Penn Badgley]

No, it does, it does. Sounds like you've actually reflected on this quite a lot.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Naomi Aki]

Oh, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I mean, because it's. Well, you're kind of naming it in this way. Very, very well.

[Naomi Aki]

Thank you. Yeah. I think I'm trying to, at this point in my life, really trying to understand it. And I think understanding it means that I have compassion for myself then and then who I am now. Yeah. There was something about control for me. If you're the youngest, you're very much not dictating the relationships in the house. You don't have much power. You're the cute one. Yes, but you don't have much power about creating the dynamic. Dynamic has already been set up, so you're just slotting into place. So acting and all of that was a way for me to control the dynamic and express things in a contained space. That meant that when I walked away from it, everything I felt stayed in that space. And I could go back into being the good girl, the quiet girl and everything like that. But as soon as I was in that drama studio, everyone listened to me. I know what to do. You know, I think that was the thing I felt powerful doing. You.

[Nava Kavlan]

Stick around. We'll be right back. Summer break is here.

[Naomi Aki]

Hallelujah.

[Nava Kavlan]

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[Unknown]

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[Nava Kavlan]

So Naomi, you are in a new project called Sorry Baby. Can you tell us you're at a point in your career where it sounds like you're being really thoughtful and really selective about the projects you choose? So why?

[Sophie Ansari]

Why?

[Nava Kavlan]

Sorry baby.

[Naomi Aki]

Baby yeah my gosh. I. You know what was it was such a gift. It was during the strike. I was so stressed and bored and I had just done the year before. I just done blink twice and Mickey 17, which all was quite elevated. It was quite like heightened performances. So much fun and I was really hungry for something that was pared down. I did a project a good few years back called Masters of None with Aziz Ansari. And like that was such a special experience of not feeling like I was acting but being really present and I was really hungry for that again. And this story came along and I hadn't read anything that was so honest in its tragedy and humor. And there was something so attractive to me about following this friendship and being and having that As a study for myself in this time, it was like a. It felt like something new to do. And the writing. Oh, God. Ava's writing. I've said this, and I don't know if this is gonna make sense, but it kind of reads like butter. Like, it's like smooth and easy and, like, spreadable. Like, it's just. It just. It's just like kind of like the story was just telling itself to me.

[Penn Badgley]

And can you give our listeners some context? Just, you know, a brief arc of the story? You know, not the arc, but just the press.

[Naomi Aki]

So the. Something bad has happened to Agnes. And this story is about their. The slowness of healing. It's also the story about friendship and how that is a huge impetus for someone to heal. Not just because of how people interact with each other when they're best friends, but also watching your best friend begin to live their life and going into a new stage of their life, it's just. I got really, like. I watched it for the first time at Sundance and with a really huge audience, and I've never quite had an experience like it because what I had read on the script felt good. And obviously what we did on set felt really good and honest. But the energy of this piece is about love and healing and support and humor in the tragedy. Like the humanness of how awkward we are and how non linear healing is, but how everything is kind of always gonna be okay. Yeah, that's. I think that's what is.

[Nava Kavlan]

Naomi, I was curious, and you definitely don't have to go there if you don't want to, but my mom passed away when I turned 30, and it was really sudden. And I was reading sort of a little bit about your journey, and you Talked about your 20s kind of being a fox. And I was thinking about the film and how part of Agnes's healing, what's crucial to it is that friendship. And I was thinking, when my mom died, I had just moved to a new city, and I really didn't have any deep friendships, so that didn't help me. Like, I think that I just didn't have that to rely on. And I was curious, like, for you, how friendships played a part in your healing journey, if they did.

[Naomi Aki]

Oh, man. Hugely. I mean, so when mom passed, I actually. I went so deeply into my shell that I don't think I talked to anyone for about nine months and, like, barely left the house. It was a very deep depression that I fell into. I think what was so beautiful to me in that time and look like death is something That I think really shines a light on who people are and how they live in your life. The friends that. That I have now who saw me through that time are the ones who allowed me the space to retreat and come back without judgment and say, my arms are always open. But also, I know you, Naomi, and, like, I'm quite an insular. I think, if you could tell by the way I talk, I'm quite like. I live in my head quite a bit, and, like, I have to take a lot of time away just to, like, jumble through all the things that's going on. The kindness of my friends to. To give me that space was. Was really important because I think when I kind of went into myself, there was also a lot of shame and guilt about the need to do that. And it's funny, actually, I think about that time of, like, deep depression, and I used to be so terrified of it. I used to be terrified of going back to it. But I also think that was so necessary. I like. And you know this, like, when someone passes that is such a pillar in your life, you are torn a fucking part. Yeah, you are. You are ripped to fucking shreds. And it's like, I think of like a lion or something. Like, you know, like, if they're injured, they go away off by themselves. There's something, I think, quite sacred about giving that. That time and allowing it to, like. I think I really got comfortable with the ugly part of being alive in that time and the friends I had in that time who allowed me to live out that ugly space. And ugly. Not in, like a. Ew. Ugly, but like the kind of robust ugliness that is grief. That is kind of fucking beautiful, too. It's like an evidence of how much you love. Yeah, it was. I'm still hugely appreciative of those who could hold that space for me and allow me to change my form in the way that I needed to to survive that time. Of the things I can remember. I'm in EMDR right now, trying to work through a lot of stuff, actually, and it's really helpful to reframe that. And it's. It's really working to help me kind of go, oh, wait, like, this is a human process. This is actually normal. Well done for being like a human. Yeah, that's so true. You know what I mean?

[Penn Badgley]

I would imagine people ask you a lot about it, so forgive me if it feels like a bit of a. A broken record, but the unique challenge it is to take on a role of playing somebody who's a real person, especially somebody who's died, in this case, Whitney Houston. And I want to dance with somebody. Somebody who means so much to so many people.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm just curious about how you approach this, and I want to maybe give one frame that you can take or leave. So I think among the many things you've said about the film and your performance is incredible.

[Naomi Aki]

Thank you.

[Penn Badgley]

I did read about your literal hunger while you were playing with her.

[Naomi Aki]

I was so fucking hungry. I had to lose a lot of weight for that. For about. Well.

[Penn Badgley]

Cause she was so thin. And then, of course, she was so thin. By the point she was deep into addiction, she was even thinner. So, I mean, you know. Yeah. So that's just a necessary facet of playing her.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

But I was wondering if the altered state that fasting and, like, low calorie mind can bring, I was wondering, you know, if that brought any unexpected insights into. Into Whitney's state or anybody's state when, like, a drug is overtaking you or even just, you know, fame. The lack of autonomy she had in life in general. I, I, you know, I'm just curious if you.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah. You know, I, you know what I think? And it wasn't intentional to, to, for those things to intertwine, but I think it actually helped me in that time losing the weight. I lost about £30 in about five months.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Naomi Aki]

So, like, it was. It was a very intense time, and it was something that I wasn't.

[Penn Badgley]

Did you have a nutritionist while you did that or anything like?

[Naomi Aki]

Nah, mate. I went, I went. I just went cold turkey. I don't know what I was thinking. Whole turkey on food, cold turkey, no more for me. It's insane. But also, like, there was this thing of, like, I have to, you know, I don't look like Whitney. I knew I could act like Whitney, but, like, I needed to. It felt like I needed to convince people as closely as possible. Like, I could do this. What I realized in that time was that, like, food as a sustenance, like, fills a space. And it is not just about, like, nutrition, but it's about comfort and grounding. And in that time, I didn't realize that I was so deeply ungrounded in that time, but that, you know, you can equate that to the ungroundedness you may feel with fame or if you're an addict. Like, there was something about feeling like I was floating. The lighter I got was, the more I was floating. It was like I couldn't quite ground myself. And there was no comfort source. Source available to me. And look, I'm a. I'm a comfort eater, like at the best of days. Like, it really. I had two cookies this morning at like 6 in the morning. They were just on the bed. I just had to. But, like. But like, I think it tapped into a part of me that I wasn't aware of. The biggest part of me was I. I was so irritable at that time and I was so sensitive. I'm a sensitive person, but I was so sensitive. I look back at some of the things that I was freaking out about and I'm like, oh, babe, that is not a big deal. But for Whitney, the stakes were so high. Yeah, from a very early age, the stakes were extremely high. She was extremely famous, had huge amounts of money, huge amounts of influence and adoration and a family that she needed to look after, let alone, you know, her future, her future partner and all the things she was juggling. The stakes were always very high. And so while doing it, the stakes felt high for me. And there was no. There was no outside comfort. You know, I had to maintain that. I had to keep thinking about my way and look like I wouldn't recommend it. I actually, like, I've. I think it was extremely reckless of me to do. And there was work to be done afterwards to heal myself from the body dysmorphia that I had. Putting back on the weight because you cannot sustain things that aren't natural to your body. And, you know, that was something that I kind of had foresight of but was like, ah, future Naomi can handle that. I need to get this job done. I would never pay that price ever again. I would never do it ever again. I, you know, I'm proud of what that performance was. But when I look at the film now, a part of me is a bit sad that I put myself through so much, you know, for. To tell a story that I was extremely passionate about doing right. And I do think it fed it. But also at the same time, I'm like, there are other ways to fabricate those feelings outside of putting your body in danger. And, like, speaking on that, you know, there are. I guess we see it often. I think we mainly see with men, male actors, like when they lose weight or put on weight. And there's a reward system around that. The idea of like an actor transforming. But I think that's pretty dangerous, if I'm being really honest, if any. If, if not to anyone, then just to the actor themselves. Just in terms of how your metabolism works and how your mental health state is when you're doing those things. I'm a middle ground kind of girl now. You know, if I ever do an act, action film. Yeah, put me in a gym, I'll try and bulk up like. But I, I believe in that. I believe that doing the extreme for something that is temporary, even though it lives forever in cinema, my, my life is more important than whatever I make. So.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, it sounds like you've come to a healthy equilibrium. I want to ask really quickly about Blink Twice. There was this incredible moment in, in the beginning where Frida and Jess are talking and kind of being like, isn't it. Jess is like, isn't it weird that they laid out clothes for us? And Frida, your character says, I don't think it's weird, I think it's just rich. And I thought that was a brilliant line. It captured how it can feel to like kind of be dropped into these like high powered spaces and the kind of things that you just like let slide because you just let. Maybe this is how it works.

[Naomi Aki]

That's what they do. Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I was curious if you've experienced anything similar to that in your own career, like having come from, like you said, working class family being dropped into Hollywood spaces. And have you ever experienced something like that where you're like, I guess it's just how it's done.

[Naomi Aki]

Oh yeah. I'm not even sure if I can, you know, Modern blank thrice. I think, like, I think the, the, the biggest thing I've noticed is like freedom of options that I didn't know was a thing. You know, if I've seen without giving too much. Like I, I, you know, I've seen people who I would not think would do certain things, doing crazy things. And that was definitely when I was younger. Like I actually now, now I don't see anything because I don't. I'm not in those spaces. And there's a joy around it. Like I, I just, what I really have observed is that it's all kind of like a game a little bit. I feel like it's like past like a cool kids club or like thing. Like there is something of a performance of it in itself that makes me feel a little bit icky. And that's not all spaces I like. There are so many people who are very successful who I absolutely adore, but the institution kind of vibe of it, I think like, like, oh, what is this? Where are we?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it is weird.

[Naomi Aki]

Where are we? And why are we attaching value to these Things and like, who are you again? And, and a freedom of movement and options that for some is liberating. And for others, I go, what are you running from? Sometimes, sometimes not my business, but I see it, I see it and I go, I, I, I wonder. I, I can't help but wonder because, you know, there's that saying, like, you can earn a certain amount of money and you're happy, and then like, there's a tipping point where, like, you know, there's almost such a surplus of opportunities and options that everything kind of becomes a bit boring and dull and you feel kind of empty inside.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. You end up creating an island. Island or buying your island.

[Naomi Aki]

Buying an island and then bringing. Yeah, exactly. And like, I think the, the thing that I've really noticed within the industry and some, only some spaces that I've been in that I now avoid is either the one where it's like I can do anything and I'm invincible, or that I'm hungry to be invincible. And both of those energies make me feel always uncomfortable. And that's when I know when to lose. Leave. If I feel, if I feel myself slipping into that feeling. For me, it's the hunger thing. Whenever I'm in a space where I'm like, I really want to impress you. I really want to be in that film. I really need that photograph. Then I'm like, this is probably not the space for you now because you're just, I'm just absorbing other people's energy and I'm like, that's not actually me. I just need to go home and go to bed and have a cookie.

[Penn Badgley]

That actually in some ways is a natural segue to our, to our or classic final question. Because what I heard just there was a, was something of older Naomi or future Naomi going back and talking to 12 year old Naomi. So, so our, our question is to everybody at the close. If you could go back to 12 year old Naomi, what would you say or do? If anything.

[Naomi Aki]

I would give her the biggest hug. I would just give her a really, really fucking big hug and be like, all right, buckle in, Stay aware, keep your eyes open and know how to rest.

[Penn Badgley]

That's lovely.

[Naomi Aki]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you so much for making the time and coming on today.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yeah, thank you.

[Naomi Aki]

Thank you. That was really fun. That was awesome. Him.

[Sophie Ansari]

You can see Sorry Baby in theaters now and you can follow Naomi Aki online at. Naomiaki podcast is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because definitely, guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime members. Okay, that's all.

[Naomi Aki]

Bye parents.

[Sophie Ansari]

We know the child care crisis is.

[Naomi Aki]

Not just another headline.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's a daily struggle playing out in.

[Naomi Aki]

Millions of homes across this country. I'm Gloria Rivera, and this is no One Is Coming to Save Us this season.

[Sophie Ansari]

We're demanding a child care system that.

[Naomi Aki]

Actually works for kids, parents and educators.

[Sophie Ansari]

We mean free birth to five full day nearby, easy to apply. No one is coming to Save Us Season 5 from Lemonada Media out now.