[Rerun] Demi Lovato

Summary

Podcrushed — [Rerun] Demi Lovato (April 15, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this powerful, candid conversation, Pop icon Demi Lovato joins Penn Badgley (with co-hosts Nava Kavelin and Sophie Ansari absent) to revisit the heartbreaks and hard-won triumphs of her adolescence and reflect on the complexities of child stardom. The episode is a companion to Demi's new documentary, Child Star, and dives into her early struggles with bullying and substance abuse, the family dynamics that shaped her, her journey through fame, and the ongoing challenges of self-acceptance and recovery. Through wit, wisdom, and vulnerability, Demi offers listeners a rare look at the realities behind the glamorous image of child celebrities and the enduring quest for authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Demi’s Middle School Experience: Trauma, Loneliness, and Early Substance Use

• Bullying and School Trauma (03:04)

  • At 12, Demi endured severe bullying, including a petition circulated by classmates encouraging self-harm:

    "There was a petition for me to hurt myself, take my own life. And people passed it around the school and signed it."
    (03:04 — Demi Lovato)

  • This trauma led to her leaving public school, struggling with eating disorders, and feeling extremely isolated.

• Turning to Substances (04:29)

  • Seeking connection, Demi fell in with an old friend and began experimenting with substances at 12.
  • After a car accident at 12, she was prescribed Vicodin and self-medicated until her mother intervened:

    "She was like, you're already halfway through this bottle. You can't keep. I'm taking this. This is no longer yours."
    (04:56 — Demi Lovato)

  • This year marked a sharp turn in Demi’s life—a retreat from school, increased loneliness, and the start of a longtime struggle with substance use.

Early Artistic Drive & The Furnace of Rejection

• Music as Solace and Motivation (06:06)

  • Demi channeled her pain and loneliness into music:

    "I used that time [after leaving public school] to work on my craft. And what fueled that motivation was I wanted to be so famous that the bullies that bullied me in school, they couldn't escape me."
    (06:16 — Demi Lovato)

  • Began singing as a toddler, performing at five (notably Celine Dion’s “My Heart Will Go On,” even powering through while being laughed at), and knew from the start that this was her purpose.

• Rejection and Early Professionalization (11:24)

  • Discusses dealing with regular rejection as a young actor—struggling, as a child does, to separate self-worth from getting or losing roles.
  • Booked Barney early but faced years of near-misses until Camp Rock at age 14.

Family Influences and Bereavement

• Generational Support (13:25)
  • Close bonds with great-grandparents, who served as surrogate grandparents when her grandparents were absent.
  • Suffered multiple bereavements (great-grandparents, grandparents) in recent years, which she says marked her deeply.

From Trauma to Artistry: Power and Pain in the Public Eye

• The Strength in Vulnerability (15:58)

  • Penn draws a connection between Demi’s pain and the emotional power in her voice:

    "There is something so powerful in your voice...your voice is marked by such a strength."
    (15:58 — Penn Badgley)

  • Demi credits her "soulfulness" to her trauma, always drawing from emotion in song.

• Manifesting Success and a Sense of Purpose (18:50)

  • Felt from an early age she would be successful and would use her platform for good:

    "It was, 'You are going to have a purpose. You're going to use your platform for good.'"
    (18:50 — Demi Lovato)

  • Pentecostal prophecy: A church woman told Demi she’d be a "hero to thousands through the arts," which galvanized her to see her career as a way to help others.

Middle School Crushes and Embarrassment

• First Crush (and Performance Trauma) (23:01, 23:41)
  • Kindergarten infatuation with a 5th grader (Douglas McDonald)—who then laughed at her during her performance.
  • Classic awkward "middle school moment": A teacher exposed her 6th-grade crush to the whole class—her mortification a standout memory:

    "It was so fucked up...everyone just pointed at me, and I was like, hi. I was mortified."
    (25:50, 26:02 — Demi Lovato)

The Camp Rock Explosion & Public Image

• 'Camp Rock' as a Life Changer (28:31)

  • Transition from near anonymity to sudden, overwhelming fame mirrored the 'overnight success' myth.
  • Touring and collaborating with Jonas Brothers—a first show in front of 18,000 after performing for 150 just prior.

• Negotiating Authenticity vs. Image (31:32, 34:34)

  • Early music (pop-rock) reflected her real taste in emo and rock. Later, felt pressured into a hyper-feminine, pop persona:

    "I feel like I was more authentic at 15...there was more of an authenticity to my art because it was reflective of what I was."
    (31:32 — Demi Lovato)

  • Later albums and coming out as non-binary allowed her to reclaim her identity and shed an inauthentic image.

Gender Identity and Embracing Duality

• Came out as non-binary around the Dancing with the Devil album (33:36); describes gender as holding both feminine and masculine energies and recounts "figuring out" her gender over time, shunning femininity before coming back to embrace both aspects.

Industry Pressure and Burnout

• Unsustainable Pace (35:41)
  • Chronicles a breakneck schedule ("movie, album, tour, TV show" on repeat), leading to burnout and breakdowns.
  • Points out the broader system’s complicity in child star overexposure and commodification.

Fulfillment vs. Burnout and Alchemy Through Art

• Drawn to Perpetual Work, Yet Drained (37:58)

  • Torn between rare opportunities (magazine covers, awards, album promotion) and stress—struggling to say no even amid exhaustion.
  • Recalls Street Week (album launch): "You don't sleep that week because you're in full promo mode...It was really hard to say no when I was getting all these offers...It was fun. It was just too much fun. That came with a lot of pressure...a recipe for burnout."

• Turning Pain Into Art, 'Child Star' Documentary (39:38, 41:01)

  • Describes the film as alchemizing trauma into service, offering transparency for others navigating similar struggles.
  • Made the film in part as a reflective process on whether or not she still loved music and wanted to continue.

On Directing, Vulnerability and Reception

• First Time Directing (43:20)
  • Nervous to direct for the first time, struggled with anxiety and decision-making.
  • Chose Nicola Marsh as co-director—a relationship that became both professional and personally supportive.

Ongoing Recovery, Body Image, and Social Media

• Recovery and Body Acceptance (46:13)

  • Works closely with a treatment team, practices body acceptance over "body positivity," and values affirmations of bodily strength and survival.
  • Honest about days when body neutrality, rather than positivity, is the only feasible mindset:

    "Loving my body and having full acceptance...doesn't feel like a...it feels too far away right now."
    (47:37 — Demi Lovato)

• Industry & Society’s Obsession With Image (48:44)

  • Both Penn and Demi lament the cultural "body obsession," observing its harm for all genders.
  • Demi speaks openly about a time of obsessive gym attendance ("three times a day") while being internally "miserable" and dissociated from her body.

Reflections on Celebrity Culture and Child Stardom System

• Bearing Witness, Not Complaining (51:17)
  • Demi is careful to distinguish her purpose: to bear witness for others, not to complain.
  • Emphasizes how society's obsession with fame has seeped even to young children (52:00).
  • Discusses vulnerability and the importance of creating art that helps others feel less alone.

Legislation, Minors, and Social Media

• The ‘Wild West’ of Kid Influencers (57:05)
  • Describes the lack of legal protections for online child stars (unlike the historical Coogan Law for child actors):

    "There are children on social media that are being commodified...where are the protections?"
    (58:09 — Demi Lovato)

  • Expresses hope for new California legislation and notes France’s recent law protecting minors on social media.

Healing, Cooking, and Next Steps

• The Joy of Cooking (60:37)
  • Cooking is now part of Demi’s recovery:

    "When I cook, it's the biggest fuck you to my eating disorder that I could possibly give."
    (61:16 — Demi Lovato)

  • Finds healing in casual baking and meal preparation—a symbol of reclaiming agency and nurturing herself.

Advice to Young Demi (and Listeners)

• Advice to 12-Year-Old Demi (62:03)
  • "Remember, you’re so beautiful... I spent so many years hating my image...It’s okay to take breaks...Meaningful connections are what will be the most important thing in your life. I value connection over success any day."
    (62:03 — Demi Lovato)

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Notable Quotes

• On purpose in music:

  "You are going to have a purpose...You are going to use your platform for good and talk about your personal experiences so that you can help others."
  (18:50 — Demi Lovato)

• On burnout:

  "It was really hard to say no when I was getting all of these offers...It was just too much fun...a recipe for burnout."
  (39:13 — Demi Lovato)

• On fame and self-worth:

  "When you achieve what you believe you want...because you have achieved it and it alone does not fulfill you, you stand a great chance of feeling in some ways worse...this sort of hollowness."
  (50:32 — Penn Badgley)

• On child influencers:

  "These kids that are on YouTube making tens of millions of dollars...there are no protections put in place for their compensation."
  (59:03 — Demi Lovato)

• On connection:

  "I value connection over success any day."
  (63:02 — Demi Lovato)

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Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• The mortifying 6th-grade crush reveal (25:49–26:09)
  Demi recounts the moment a teacher brought her crush, Scott, into class and outed her feelings to everyone ("everyone just pointed at me, and I was like, hi").
• Penn’s admiration: (16:37)
  Penn admits becoming a newfound “Demi Lovato stan” during his interview prep.
• Demi’s resilience as a child performer: (09:00–09:16)
  Recalling singing "My Heart Will Go On" with tears onstage, despite being laughed at.

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:04 — Demi discusses being bullied out of public school at 12
• 04:29 — The beginning of substance use and the Vicodin episode
• 06:16 — Channeling pain into musical ambition
• 09:00 — The infamous kindergarten performance
• 25:49 — The classroom crush incident
• 28:31 — How 'Camp Rock' changed her life overnight
• 33:36 — Coming out as non-binary and reclaiming artistic identity
• 39:13 — On the tradeoff between opportunities and burnout
• 46:13 — Ongoing recovery and approaches to body image
• 57:05 — The wild west of kid influencers and lack of legal protection
• 62:03 — Advice to young Demi: beauty, rest, and connection

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Final Thoughts

This episode stands out for its raw honesty about the costs of fame, the trauma and triumph of surviving adolescence under the microscope, and the slow, conscious work of healing. Demi Lovato’s journey is both singular and universal, and her willingness to share her story, warts and all, makes this deeply engaging and reassuring listening—not just for her fans, but for anyone muddling through the pressures of performance, self-worth, and self-acceptance.

Transcript

[Demi Lovato]

Lemonada. So he's like, scott, come here. Come in the class real quick. And he stood there and was like, okay. And the teacher. The. The coach teacher was like, someone in this classroom has a crush on you.

[Penn]

No.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes.

[Penn]

That's.

[Demi Lovato]

And it was so fucked up.

[Penn]

Yeah, that. That's not fair.

[Demi Lovato]

It's not fair for an adult to do that. And he goes, who? And everyone just pointed at me, and I was like, hi.

[Penn]

Literally everyone points at you.

[Demi Lovato]

I was mortified.

[Penn]

That's the actual. Like, you're always terrified of everyone pointing at you. And it actually happened.

[Demi Lovato]

It actually happened to me.

[Penn]

Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Demi Lovato]

I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie.

[Penn]

And I think we could have been your middle school besties if we weren't

[Demi Lovato]

too busy hanging out with our parents, who are actual middle school besties.

[Penn]

Nerd. Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts. I. I can't stop scratching my downtown. Mm. Yeah. But I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud. There's no question too embarrassing For Amazon Health AI, chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7. Healthcare just got less painful. Foreign.

[Demi Lovato]

Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here, and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music. Cyndi may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years, she has brought playfulness and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now only on Amazon, Music included, with Prime.

[Penn]

Demi. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you so much for having me, really.

[Penn]

I'm very excited to get into this. You have a documentary out right now called Child Star, which we will get into, but we will start with you like we do with Everybody else at 12 years old. And you can tell me if I'm right in my guesstimation. You know, you started acting, singing, performing very, very young. I think at like, six. Is that right?

[Demi Lovato]

Seven.

[Penn]

Seven. Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

And then, of course, when you really blew up, you were a teenager. So there's this period where we like to start. We call it middle school. You know, 12 years, this unique transition. Describe for me, if you can, just a snapshot of life for you at 12. How are you seeing the world? Did you see yourself as an artist and a performer still, or, you know, those things.

[Demi Lovato]

So 12 was a loaded year. It was a heavy year for me. It's when I left public school, I had been bullied, actually, and. Which I get into in my film a little bit. There was a petition for me to hurt myself, take my own life. And people passed it around the school and signed it.

[Penn]

That was a 12. I didn't know that was a 12. Somehow I got the sense in the doc that it was later that it was like 14, 15. Not that that would be much better,

[Demi Lovato]

but, yeah, 12 was. 12 was hard for me. And that. Yeah, it was really difficult for me. That had happened. I left public school because of that. I developed an eating disorder.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

Then I was really lonely, and I didn't have any friends, really. But I found this girl that I used to be friends with in elementary school, and she got me into a lot of trouble. Like her. She was like, do you have any. I was like, how do you have so many older friends? And she was like, well, do you party? And I was like, what does that mean? She was like, do you drink? And I was like, no. She was like, oh, well, that's how I have so many older friends. And I wanted to be like her with all these friends, you know, because I had just been bullied and had nobody. I felt so isolated.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

So I started getting into substances at 12.

[Penn]

And where was this?

[Demi Lovato]

This was in Dallas, Texas.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

All right. I also had been in a car accident right before I turned 13 where I was prescribed Vicodin and was taking that without my mom knowing. And she kind of.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

Came downstairs or came upstairs one day and was like, where did half of this bottle go? And I was like, well, I've just been taking it when I need it. And she's like, you're already halfway through this bottle. Like, you can't keep. Like, you. I'm. I'm taking this. You're. This is no longer yours.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

And so, yeah, she took it away from me. And that was. That was the first time that I felt like anything other than alcohol. And I loved it. And, yeah, that was kind of like the year that everything in my life changed.

[Penn]

That really resonates with me. I moved to LA when I was 12, and first time I started taking all substances. So I feel you there. What? I wonder, because you. You are so talented. You have such a gift of a voice.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

I guess I'm curious. How did you see yourself? Where was the artist then? Where was the performer then?

[Demi Lovato]

I Put it on hold for that year for 12. 12. I put it on hold with the exception of, like, during, actually. So I would do my schoolwork in the mornings, and then I would spend the rest of the afternoo on music.

[Penn]

So you were out of.

[Demi Lovato]

So I left public school.

[Penn]

That's right. And then you were in. Was it a professional school or what were you doing? Okay, cool. I did that for a year, which really meant no school for me.

[Demi Lovato]

It was no school for me, too. But, I mean, I did a little bit in the mornings, and then I would work on music for the rest of the afternoon. And I would play piano, I'd play guitar, I'd write songs, I'd sing, and I just would be working on music. And I used that time to work on my craft. And what fueled that motivation was I wanted to be so famous that the bullies that bullied me in school, they couldn't escape me.

[Penn]

That's right. Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. And so I worked on my craft during that time, but, you know, on the weekends or. And, yeah, on the weekends, I would party with my new, well, old friend.

[Penn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

And I started getting into trouble.

[Penn]

I mean, so you had a craft. You had, like, a dedicated craft already?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, it started happening around eight years old.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

I started taking voice lessons. I started, you know, learning how to sing from a professional, and I started taking guitar lessons. Piano lessons. Piano lessons. I had started. No, it was around that time. So I was taking. I was working on my craft at, I would say, eight years old.

[Penn]

And at that point, when did. Well, so I guess because you. You did. You did the TV thing so early. That was it always, like, in your mind, meant to be professional? You know, I wonder at what age, because I started very young as. Well, not quite as young as you, but like, so much of my adult life, as if I ever feel able to call myself an artist is like trying to find that. Thank you. Thank you. Trying to find that place where it wasn't about external validation.

[Demi Lovato]

Right.

[Penn]

I'm not always sure how far back I have to go. I think it's about nine for me.

[Demi Lovato]

Oh, yeah. I had known since I was. Well, the very first time that I felt a pull to music was around, like, three, four years old. I started singing a lot around the house. And at 4 or 5 years old, I performed at the talent show in kindergarten. And I had this moment where I was singing Celine Dion's My Heart Will Go on. And I had this moment where my microphone cut out in the middle of the performance, and I'M four or five years old, terrified. I see the boy that I had a crush on in the front row laughing at me.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

And I. I started to cry, but there was a switch that happened in me that was like, no, you're not going to let them win.

[Penn]

Your heart will go on.

[Demi Lovato]

My heart will go on.

[Penn]

Did you keep singing?

[Demi Lovato]

I kept seeing the microphone kept. Turned back on.

[Penn]

Wow.

[Demi Lovato]

And it was. It was this little miracle. And so you.

[Penn]

So. So you're like, with tears streaming down your face at 4 years old. Wow, that's so dramatic.

[Demi Lovato]

So I finished the song, and there was a moment where I was like, when I look back, I'm like, why did I fight through that? And I think it was, like, the passion that I had to be on stage.

[Penn]

Sure, sure.

[Demi Lovato]

And I wanted it ever since. And I knew. And I mentioned this in the documentary. I had seen Shirley Temple, and I knew, being that young, that if she could do it, I could do it. And so I started to. I mean, I was singing all the time at my house, and then I started taking lessons. I had booked Barney and started singing on there and acting at the same time. But, yeah, I knew from a very young age that I wanted to do this and be on stage. But I think when I knew it was a profession was when I booked Barney and I started getting those checks in the mail and was like, oh, wow, this is not just playtime anymore. This is like an actual job.

[Penn]

Yeah. I mean, so much of your documentary is exploring that. So I guess we'll kind of just constantly toggle between these things. Right. So, like, what your documentary is doing, I think quite responsibly and really impactfully is like, exploring how there's something kind of like, baked into the whole premise of a child star that is. Right. That's like, not going to serve the child, and therefore it's not. Can't really be serving anybody else. There's something.

[Demi Lovato]

Well, I think that it can serve the child to a certain degree if it's something that they love doing. Like, I. My parents didn't push me to do this career. I was begging them to take me to auditions and to, you know, and so I think when you have something that motivates you and dreams in a child, you want to help foster those dreams to becoming a reality.

[Penn]

Yeah, definitely.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

So, I mean, so. So then it sounds like maybe up until this period of adolescence and then the stuff you went through later in your teen years, it sounds like. Was it. Did you experience it then mostly as, like, really exciting and really inspiring.

[Demi Lovato]

It was definitely inspiring and exciting, and it was everything that I could ever imagine. You know, I. I dreamt of it and wanted it so badly. Like, I dealt with. And, you know, this. You know, being an actor, you deal with so many years of rejection before you get your big break. I mean, that's the case for most people. And I booked Bernie, and then I continued to audition, Right. And I wasn't working, I wasn't booking anything, and I dealt with years of rejection. And I think that, like, I think that, you know, I paid my dues, is what I'm trying to say.

[Penn]

Yeah, of course. Of course. How did you feel as a kid then? Cause, I mean, what I recall is not being old enough or mature enough at all to be able to separate myself from the roles that I was auditioning for, really. And when I was being turned down for a role, to not feel ultimately like, well, I'm not good enough, of course. I couldn't have articulated this.

[Demi Lovato]

Of course.

[Penn]

Then I just would have been like, you know, when you get anything, it's. It's like a relief from a kind of tension you didn't even know you're always in. You know, you're just like, oh, I got something. I'm like, I'm okay.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

And so I don't know where the question is in that.

[Demi Lovato]

I think it's just taking a look at, you know, how difficult it could be for a child to separate from not taking it personal every time that they get rejected.

[Penn]

It's just.

[Demi Lovato]

It's like. It's. It's so intense.

[Penn]

And so I guess. How many years. So. So you had. Basically from like 7 or 8 until. When did you get Camp Rock?

[Demi Lovato]

I booked maybe like, a commercial here, there a few things, but I think it was until 14.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

That I started actually booking jobs.

[Penn]

Right. You mentioned your. Did I hear it right? Your great grandparents.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Is that right? So they were around. They were around.

[Demi Lovato]

So this is actually. Wait, let me see if I can unbutton this. This might take a second.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

I was very close with my great grandparents, and my grandmother had had my mom at a young age.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

There's no way I'm gonna be able to do it.

[Penn]

I can try.

[Demi Lovato]

Wait, let me see. Oh, wait, no, it's a. It's a losing.

[Penn]

No. Yeah. No, a denim button.

[Demi Lovato]

I have a tattoo of my great grandmother on my arm. But she, you know, I was close with them. My mom. My grandma had my mom at a young age. And so my great grandparents were a lot Younger than most great grandparents.

[Penn]

And you had all generations in the house?

[Demi Lovato]

No, so.

[Penn]

Or around.

[Demi Lovato]

I was close with my great grandparents during a period of time that my grandparents weren't in the picture.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

So they were kind of my. They were essentially my grandparents for a while, and that's why I became so close with them. And they would watch me all the time. I just was super close with them.

[Penn]

That's awesome.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. I was really lucky to grow up with great grandparents and grandparents. It's something that God, I never will take for granted.

[Penn]

Are they still alive?

[Demi Lovato]

So my great grandparents are not still alive. They passed away in 2015 and 2016, so.

[Penn]

So recently. My goodness, it's amazing to have them. Wow.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes. And I was devastated. And then my grandma. My grandma and grandpa passed. My grandfather passed away in. During COVID And then my grandmother passed away in 2021 or 2022.

[Penn]

That's all really recent.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

That's a lot of recent loss.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Just a part of all that, you're. I'm just thinking of, like, the powerful convergence of the many forces that you're working with that, you know, that you're transparent about in your art and in documentary. So I just want to kind of appreciate that for a moment. That's a lot of loss. A lot that you're going through that you've been going through.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, I've experienced a lot of loss in life, so, you know, it doesn't

[Penn]

surprise me just because there is something so powerful in your voice. Like, I mean, I don't believe that there needs to be pain to have strength and power, but it's almost like, if we don't endure pain, then where else does our power shine the most? So. But your voice is marked by such a strength. And before prepping for this interview, like, I gotta say, I just. I just didn't know. I did not know until the last few weeks. And I've been in this, like, Demi Lovato bubble. I mean, so many of your songs have been stuck in my head. I'm not. I am. I just want to give you your flowers.

[Demi Lovato]

Like, thank you.

[Penn]

I did not quite know your scope as an artist and your power. And just, like, really, I've been. I'm a convert. I'm, like, telling people, thanks.

[Demi Lovato]

You're so sweet.

[Penn]

And especially when I had food poisoning. You so kindly gave me, like, electrolytes and soup because we had to cancel our first interview. I was just in this kind of delirious state and just, like, listening to your music. And the only other Time I can recall that happening was when Kendrick's last record came out, Mr. Morale. And I had Covid in London while I was shooting the fourth season of my show. There is some kind of mirror experience there. Like, the last time I was just, like, laid out in bed. And, I mean, I'm a Kendrick Stan. Like, I love that.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, he's great.

[Penn]

And what he does, as, you know, basically everyone does, but, you know, you're in good company. Like, I don't. I'll be respectful to everybody, but I don't necessarily tip my hat to everybody like that. You know, I mean, really. So, yeah, you know, we'll get there. Oh, I did want to ask you about your voice when. So you didn't always have the pain. At some point, we.

[Demi Lovato]

All right.

[Penn]

But you probably always had.

[Demi Lovato]

Or did I?

[Penn]

Yeah. Well, that's what I was gonna ask. When did you or anyone around you just start noticing your voice and, like, you know. And then also, was it always like, this girl is singing like somebody has broken her heart? What is happening?

[Demi Lovato]

I think it's. I don't really know. I don't really remember someone, like, pointing out the soulfulness of my voice, But I have been through quite a lot, and I've had trauma that started at a young age, and so I think I've always just drew from my emotions in that sense. And, yeah, I mean, I think that it's kind of just always been there.

[Penn]

Looking at, like, if you can recall yourself at 12, looking out at the horizon of, you know, you'd been developing this craft, you had this incredible gift. How did you see that horizon then? Were you hopeful? You know what I'm saying?

[Demi Lovato]

I think it was, like, the ultimate manifestation where, like, I just knew I was gonna make it. I knew I would be successful, and there was no telling me otherwise. It was like someone, you know, told me when I was. Before I came onto this planet that, like, you're gonna have a. And it wasn't even that, like, you're gonna stand on stage and sing in front of thousands of adoring fans. It was, you are going to have a purpose. Like, you are. You, like, have. You're going to use your platform for good and talk about your personal experiences so that you can help others. And it was just like, I don't know. I just always knew that that was going to be my future.

[Penn]

And so you don't have a sense of where some kind of external place where that sense of determination came from. You felt you always had it.

[Demi Lovato]

So I always knew That I would be on stage and singing in front of, you know, thousands of people. But, like, there was one moment where I actually, I. So part of my family grew up Pentecostal, and I went to this church convention, and now I don't know how I feel about religion now. Well, I do know how I feel about religion, but I don't know. My spirituality is kind of like, I'm figuring things out.

[Penn]

Sure. Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

Because I did grow up religious, and. But now my, you know, certain things don't align for me. So I'm like, what do I want you saying?

[Penn]

You have loaded feelings about religion? That's really. That's. I mean, that's. Yeah, well said, well understood.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, definitely. Like, I don't believe in institutionalized religion. So anyways, I went to this church convention, and I. You know, my faith was really strong at that point, and this woman prophesied over me, and she said, you're going to be a hero to thousands of people someday through the arts. And at that moment, she got it wrong.

[Penn]

It's millions.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you. You know, that woman kind of like, there was a switch inside of me that was like. That was when I knew I wanted to use my. My voice for good. And I kind of, like, made this pact with God, which you're not supposed to do, but I did. I was like, if you make me. If you give me my dreams, if you make me this famous singer, then I will use my voice for good. And so that was when it shifted inside of me that I knew it wasn't just about singing.

[Penn]

What I hear is, like, a sincere child, basically, having this sincere desire to actually be of service, to, like, to do good with something that you've been gifted with.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

And that's. I mean, look, that's deep. That's not necessarily. That's not religious. That's just, like, spiritual and human. And that's beautiful.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. And so that's why, like, that's a huge reason why I'm so vulnerable with the public and sharing my struggles is because I know that it's going to help somebody out there feel less alone and hopefully get the help that they need.

[Penn]

Before my co hosts, who really wish they were here, would kill me if I did not. We have classic questions just about, like, middle school, even though you weren't in it. The show's called Pod Crush because we do like to have some of these, whether funny or deep or embarrassing, awkward, crushing. Just stories of, like, first love and heartbreak.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

You know, it sounds like your first Crush was at 4 you said. Which we've had before, by the way. We've had plenty of that. We've had, like, four and six. And I remember the first one I can recall was at six years old.

[Demi Lovato]

My first crush was a fifth grader when I was in kindergarten.

[Penn]

Wait a second. That's five to what, 11 years old? Maybe 10 years.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, like 10 years old. I had a crush on this boy named Douglas McDonald. I don't think we ever talked like, there was no.

[Penn]

Yeah. How would you.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, because I'm in kindergarten.

[Penn]

Unless he babysat you.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. And that was my very first crush, and that was the one that laughed at me when I was on stage.

[Penn]

Oh, seriously? Oh, so when you said that was a crush, I was imagining this other boy, like, lined up next to you just, like, kind of like doing the pee dance. Just like, super. Okay, so. Oh, so this older boy.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes.

[Penn]

Laughed at you?

[Demi Lovato]

Pointed and laughed at me.

[Penn]

How did you feel?

[Demi Lovato]

I started crying.

[Penn]

That is. Okay. And then you powered through and sang the rest of Celine Dion's My Heart.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes.

[Penn]

That's really amazing. Okay. All right. What was the first time you had a crush that could reciprocate whether or not they did reciprocate?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, it was sixth grade.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

His name was Nathan Moore, and I just had a crush on him. I think we ended up going out. And by going out, I just mean we called each other boyfriend and girlfriend and didn't speak.

[Penn]

Probably.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, probably didn't speak. But no, he was my first kiss. And, yeah, that was, like. I think, like, we broke up, and I don't remember much. I don't remember much. Yeah, it was the sixth grade, but that was my first, like, boyfriend.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. There was one of my most embarrassing moments of my entire life. I had a crush on an older guy. Surprise. I was in the sixth grade. He was in the eighth grade.

[Penn]

Yeah. That's not insane.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. And he was, like, the most popular guy in school, and he was on the football team. And I had this teacher that was a social studies teacher and a coach to the football team.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

And so I was sitting in class one day, and I mentioned it to one of the other classmates, and I said, like, yeah, I've got a crush on Scott. And my coach overheard and was like, who do you have a crush on? And I was like, nobody. And the. You know, the person I told it to was like, scott. And. Yeah. So we were in the class, and all of a sudden, guess who walks by the door? And the coach knows him because he's on the football team.

[Penn]

Right. Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

So he's like, scott, come here. Come in the class real quick.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

And he stood there and was like, okay. And the teacher, the. The coach teacher was like, someone in this classroom has a crush on you.

[Penn]

No.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes.

[Penn]

That's.

[Demi Lovato]

And it was so fucked up.

[Penn]

Yeah. That's not fair. It's not fair for an adult to do that.

[Demi Lovato]

And he goes, who? And everyone just pointed at me. And I was like, hi.

[Penn]

Literally everyone points at you.

[Demi Lovato]

I was mortified.

[Penn]

It's the actual. Like, you're always terrified of everyone pointing at you. And it actually happened.

[Demi Lovato]

It actually happened to me. But it was kind of worth it because we ended up dating, like, years later.

[Penn]

All right. Years. Okay. All right. Yeah, that's funny.

[Demi Lovato]

Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. A better help ad. May is mental health awareness month. A reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to do it alone. Right now, most Americans are struggling. Nearly two thirds report feeling anxious. More than half say financial stress is a major source. And even though 85% of people believe seeking support is important, many still don't take that step. That's where BetterHelp comes in. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a therapist who's there with you to listen, understand, and support you on your terms. Schedule sessions conveniently via the app and talk to your therapist by video phone or live chat. BetterHelp matches you with a therapist who's with you through life's ups and downs. Because no journey should be alone, visit betterhelp.com for 10% off.

[Penn]

That's betterhelp.com Amazon Pharmacy presents painful thoughts of course I see my co worker in line at the pharmacy. Can you tell I'm picking up prescription hemorrhoid cream? I'm probably standing weird. Why is he smiling? He knows he's going to call me hemorrhoid Lloyd tomorrow. I know it. I gotta quit my job. Next time, avoid awkward conversations and get fast free delivery with Amazon Pharmacy. Health care just got less painful. I do want to go back to life before and after Camp Rock. Is. Is there any clear, like, life before and after? I mean, it seems like there's no comparison, right? Is that. Is that true? I mean, like, before it, you were in Dallas. Before it, you were all the things you were describing, and then after it, you were just like, on this, like, space shuttle.

[Demi Lovato]

So it was really. It was a whirlwind. I went to LA for a week to have a meeting with a manager, and this was in this was when I was 15, in March. The movie was coming out in the movie. Maybe this was February actually, but the movie was coming out in June or July.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

And I go to LA to meet with this manager.

[Penn]

So you'd already done the film?

[Demi Lovato]

Yes, I shot the film the year before. Okay. I meet with this manager, and he was like, you know, if we want. If we're gonna do this, we gotta get the ball rolling. We need to take advantage of the momentum and release an album with Camp Rock. And I was like, but we're months away from it. And he was like, well, we need to work fast. So I went straight on the road at this time. I wrote my album, my first album with the Jonas Brothers, and I went straight on the road with them to write an album. We wrote a bunch of songs. I hud straight to la, and then I think I went home maybe to, like, pack my bags for tour. I went on tour and Camp Rock came out. And, yeah, when I came off tour, I came back to a new house in la. And so it was kind of like.

[Penn]

Wait, how? You were touring? What, like, with the Jonas Brothers or you were just on your.

[Demi Lovato]

Okay, first I did a small tour where, like, my first show had, like, 150 people in Hershey Park, Pennsylvania, at the. In, like, the amphitheater inside, like, the park. And it was, you know, my family was passing out flyers, trying to get people to come up, come to the show. And it went from that to a month later, opening for the Jonas Brothers. And my first show was in front of 18,000 people.

[Penn]

Wow.

[Demi Lovato]

So I went. It was pretty overnight for me. It wasn't. I mean, it wasn't literally overnight, but it was basically. It was basically overnight. And once Camp Rock came out, everything changed for me. And I, you know, got on a train that didn't stop for a really long time. What felt like a really long time. And it was years. But, yeah, that was kind of like the beginning of my journey.

[Penn]

Do you remember what music you were listening to then?

[Demi Lovato]

Yes, I was listening to. I was in my, like, emo phase.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

So I was listening to a bunch of emo bands, started getting into, like, some screamo bands. Then I was into, like, metal for a minute. And then, like, you know, which I still appreciate, but I was listening to, like, more of rock music at this point in my life. Yeah.

[Penn]

So how did you feel about the, you know, the tension between. Surely there was. It was a creative tension, so positive. And then maybe otherwise between this kind of, like, clean. I guess this clean Kind of more pop image that you had, that you had the pressure and responsibility, I guess, to be a part of creating. But then it sounds like, you know, what you were listening to privately and did, did you feel, did you already feel at that age that you wanted to get into something? I don't know what the word would be. Grittier or, you know, what have you.

[Demi Lovato]

I, I, I don't know. I felt like I was doing pop rock music. My first two albums were pop rock. It wasn't till like my third album that I started going into like, more pop. And that was when I released Give youe Heart A Break, which was very, very pop. And it was from then on that I started, I kind of like went through a phase where I just did what I felt other people wanted me to do, which was, you know, wear the hair extensions and wear the leotards on stage and have this hyper feminine image put out in front of the world. And I started dressing sexier and just became this person that I don't relate to today. And I feel like I was more of when I was 15. There was more of an authenticity to my art because it was reflective of what I was. Yeah, I feel like it was, it was more authentic than like my cool for the summer days just because it was more reflective of what I was listening to at the time.

[Penn]

So then did you feel like you were reclaiming it by the artist starting over or, you know, I'm just. Because it's interesting to have felt so young, something I really resonate with or I identify with that, like, feeling. I felt the most authentic, I think at about 12, probably.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

And then as an artist, it's like, I think in my 30s, finally been able to reclaim some of that.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

When did you feel like you started to reclaim that?

[Demi Lovato]

So when I did the Art of Starting Over, Dancing with the Devil, I did start to reclaim it. I also, during that time, I think it was like right around the album release, I came out as non binary.

[Penn]

Right, right.

[Demi Lovato]

And I really shed that image of that hyper feminine pop star that I, that I had been for so, so many years. I really started to shed that image. I cut all my hair off and it was like really freeing for me. And I wasn't, I kind of like I had ditched. I kind of like shunned the feminine side of me and really started to embrace my masculinity. I feel like for me being non binary, when people ask that, what does it mean to me? It's like I feel masculine and feminine. So I just feel like I. Well, I feel like I'm kind of both. Like I have both energies and me. And at that point in my life, I really shunned the feminine energy and. And now I'm able to, like, embrace both.

[Penn]

Yeah, that's good.

[Demi Lovato]

So I was, like, figuring out my gender and trying to figure out who I was, and I started to reclaim it, and then I did. Holy fuck. Where I really started to reclaim, like, go back to my roots, which is what I had been, you know, being so appreciative of rock music going back to those roots.

[Penn]

I mean, it's there. I mean, you hear it. It's a tough album. I mean that in a good way, you know.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

It's pretty hard and interesting, by the way. Eat Me as a song. I thought, like, the lyricism is. Is really great. I mean, it's, like, funny, you know what I mean? It's. It's. And it's. Yeah, I was very, very impressed by that record.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you so much.

[Penn]

You're talking about this time where it's almost like you were so busy that you were. That you were losing yourself, which, again, I think anybody who ends up operating at this kind of high level can identify with. And in. In the film, in Child Star, you describe this period where, I mean, you were like, tour, movie, record, tour, movie record. It was just. It was just very, very.

[Demi Lovato]

It was movie album, tour, TV show, movie album, tour, TV show, movie album, tour, TV show. And so it was like. It was very jam packed. And yeah, it was a lot to handle at 16, 17 years old.

[Penn]

Right. At any age, by the way.

[Demi Lovato]

At any age.

[Penn]

At any age. That is, of course, a lot to handle. And I mean, there's adults who have breakdowns at.

[Demi Lovato]

And burnout.

[Penn]

Right? And so I actually think, like, there's a point in the film where, you know, you're looking at kind of like the social norms surrounding this stuff, which I love. Cause I think sometimes when we get. Whether we're a viewer or, you know, the person making this stuff, you can sometimes get mired in details and forget that, like, you're not solely responsible for this. There's like, there's a whole apparatus and a culture around that apparatus that, like, keeps creating this problem of a person at the top of, like a, you know, a brand or an empire who is, like, who is really, really struggling and really isolated. And I mean, in fact, it seems to me like it happens more often than not. You know what I mean? And so at some point, the stat comes up. Hannah Montana generated one. Bill was generating $1 billion, like, at its peak. And you have experts reflecting on this idea that child stars aren't that simply because they're the most talented. It's not that they aren't. It's just that they're necessarily created by a team of adults to sell products, you know, and. And so I guess I'm wondering about this, you know, you're forthcoming about it. Not everybody in this position is forthcoming about it. So I guess I'm. I'm curious, like, you know, you're talking about it in the film, this interplay between. I guess I wonder at the time when it was the hardest, and I know there have been ups and downs, and so it might be hard to identify when it was the hardest. Do you also feel like there was fulfillment from what you were doing, or was that just completely gone?

[Demi Lovato]

There was definitely fulfillment. You know, it was like, I'd be going through my calendar, and I knew that it was too much, but I'd have an opportunity to be on the COVID of Cosmopolitan or the COVID of Seventeen magazine or Teen Vogue or whatever it was. And, like, how do you turn down those photo shoots when you dreamt you had them, those covers hanging on your wall in Texas of people that you were fans of and award shows, you know, or there was this pressure to go do promo for the album that you just spent so much time and effort working so hard on. So it's like you want the payoff, so you do the extreme. You know, you do the extreme. Like Street Week, for instance, when your album comes out, you do. You don't sleep that week because you're in full promo mode, and you do everything you can so that it's a success because you work so hard on it, and this is your dream. And so, like, it was really hard to say no when I was getting all of these offers coming through, because it was fulfilling to me. You know, it was exciting and it was fun. It was just too much fun. I guess it was too much fun. That came with a lot of pressure, and it was just like a kind of a recipe for burnout.

[Penn]

So, to me, and you know, please correct me if I get anything wrong, but Child Star to me, seems to be like the next step in your path to what I'm calling, like, transmuting or alchemizing these really extreme forces that come at you as I think anybody in, like, a true pop star position, like, I am subject to them as well. I have experienced it. But I think people at your level and Specifically in music. Like, that's kind of the pinnacle of it, you know. So I feel like you've been taking all of this and turning it into art, as we were saying before. Like, you know, it's this almost like this, like service in a way. And you've been doing this, I think increasingly with every record you put out. It seems like, like, especially when you came out with the artist starting over, you know, Dancing with the Devil, that seems like where you became really forthcoming, really transparent. Like, that seemed to me to be like a concept record, which again, the last like two weeks I've been getting into and just blown me away.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

What inspired you to. With Child Star to tell your story in this way? And why now? You know, for you to be in front of and behind the camera, for it to be on camera at all. What, what inspired you to do it this way?

[Demi Lovato]

This whole journey has been a really reflective journey for me. I wanted to take a look. So I, I actually, you know, going like entering my 30s was like, what do I want to do? Like, does this still make me happy? Is it still fulfilling to me? And why did I get into it? And I started this journey of like wanting to. In order to figure out my future, I needed to go back to the beginning. And there had always been this curiosity inside of me that was like, just fascinated by the subject of child stardom. You know, why do parents get their kids. Kids into it? Is it always the kid pushing the parents or vice versa? You know, how it affects child stars, being in the public eye at such a young age. And then of course, I had a personal connection to it because of my own story and being a child star myself, so. And I've always wanted to direct. Like I've co directed some music videos before. And so this journey just kind of came together. It all fell into place. And yeah, I wanted to tell the stories and get different perspectives on child stardom and that's why I interviewed so many people about it.

[Penn]

Right, well, so in the beginning of Child Star, you say something that I actually thought was really funny. Your co director, I think is Nicola Marsh, is asking you, how do you feel about being on camera?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

And at first I have it here. What did you say? You say something that you say, I don't mind, and then she presses you and you choose on a scale of 1 to 10 to give it an 8.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Which is pretty bad.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

So that right there, I thought, captured something again. I, of course can relate to like this feeling of being on camera, being Vulnerable for the sake of something you're trying to communicate, but like having so many, so many mixed feelings about it. As you were developing this and being like, this is the way I'm gonna do it now. This is the next step I'm gonna take. Were you nervous about its reception? Were you thinking about that at all?

[Demi Lovato]

So of course I was nervous. I've never co directed a film in my life and you know, quite frankly didn't. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing. And I'm kind of just nervous all the time anyways. Like I have bad anxiety and so I'm kind of just always nervous. But I was nervous definitely about stepping into this role of being a co director. And you know, was it. Sometimes when you have a dream, you're like, this is great, this sounds good. But when you start to make it a reality, you're like, oh my God, what if it doesn't do what I thought? You know, it's like the idea of it sounds really good. In the beginning when we started working on the film and as we started going, I was like, wait, wait a second. This is real and this could flop. This could not turn out the way that I like what if? Yeah, it was just all these what ifs. And so of course I was nervous.

[Penn]

Yeah. I feel like when you start making decisions with a project and it starts taking shape, when you have to commit to things, that's when you get nervous because you're like, I'm doing it now. Oh yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

I have a hard time picking out wallpaper for my kitchen, let alone deciding what shots go where in a film so that people are going to see many people. And so I, you know, it was difficult for me.

[Penn]

How did you find your co director? Nicola.

[Demi Lovato]

Nicola. You know, through agents and production. The production team that we worked with at obb, you know, it just kind of happened.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Demi Lovato]

Through meetings.

[Penn]

How. How was that relationship? I mean, it's very intimate. Right.

[Demi Lovato]

She's so great. She's so great. She's funny, she's smart. She's so inquisitive and so articulate with her words. She's just so intelligent. And I saw her work with Stay on the Leo Baker Story and watched it and it really resonated with me. And so, um, when we, we had that meeting, I was stoked and yeah, she's just so great. And I feel like I'm gonna have a. I made not only a great professional relationship with her, but I'm gonna have a friend for a really long Time in her.

[Penn]

That's awesome.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

What you're also speaking about in the beginning is, like, which, again, I think anybody in a position like ours can relate to. And then, of course, I think all people can relate to, like, body image issues.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Because you're so forthcoming about it, I would think that you also have tools to sort of manage that. Can you share any of those tools or, like, how you're working with it now?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. So I have a treatment team that I work with that helps me stay in recovery.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

And I've been in recovery from bulimia for about five. Going on six years now.

[Penn]

Wow. Okay.

[Demi Lovato]

And, you know, I've. So I've been in recovery for sometime now, and I think the thing for me is I'm now in a body that feels. I don't. I. I'm trying to learn body acceptance rather than body positivity, because body positivity feels like I can't even reach that yet. You know, I. I have to work on body acceptance, body neutrality, because that feels like a goal I can reach. And so some days I just work on. And I do this with my treatment team. I have a nutritionist and a therapist that specializes in eating disorders, and I just work with them on. And we come up with tools, but we also. We do, you know, sessions on body image, and they provide me with a ton of insight. And. Yeah, I think the main thing that I'm working on is just body acceptance and just looking in the mirror and being like, this body is strong, this body, like, very basic elementary affirmations. But, like, this body saved my life and fought for my life when I was, you know, when I overdosed. It's like, this body is a miracle. And that's what I have to focus on, because loving my body and full. And having full acceptance over it doesn't feel like a. It feels too far away right now.

[Penn]

You could say that body positivity is almost like, still, there's a lot of focus on the body. Whereas something about the way that I think about body neutrality is like, there's just not as much focus on the body. And we are so, like, body obsessed. We really are obsessed, and it's exhausting for all of us. Like, I don't care what body you have. It's exhausting for everybody. Yeah, it is. I mean, I actually just recently got into. I don't get on social media much, but I have YouTube like an old man, and. And I. I started getting myself into shape in, like, the middle of this last season because Usually quite skinny. So fitting into my old clothes was actually, I was like, all right, this is. I am a dad, and it has been a pandemic. And this is. This is real. So I was, you know, just. Just trying to trim down and. And I have now been exposed to, like. Like, male fitness. YouTube, like, that algorithm. I mean, it's. It's a. It's a wild place. So even. I mean, I think, like, men who exhibit the most incredible, like, masculine physiques, I think they've still got so much going on up there.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

I mean, it's not.

[Demi Lovato]

There was a time where I would work out, like, three times a day. It wasn't for, you know, it wasn't sustainable. So it didn't last very long. But there was a time where I was practically living at my gym.

[Penn]

Can I ask when that was? Like, what?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, that was like, 2016 or 2017, one of the two. And I was working out, and I was. The thing was, is I was miserable inside.

[Penn]

Right.

[Demi Lovato]

You know, and I still wasn't happy with my body. And so when I think about. You know, when I think about my body and I get triggered because I'm, like, having a bad body image day. I think to myself, like, well, even if you were in the body that you, quote, unquote, desire for right now, like, I guess I didn't need the quote unquote. But even if you were in the body that you desire, like, there's a possibility that you still won't be happy. You have to achieve body neutrality at the size you are, because just because you're smaller doesn't mean you're gonna find peace with your body image.

[Penn]

Yeah, exactly. Or for men, bigger, you know.

[Demi Lovato]

Right, right, right, of course.

[Penn]

Yeah. It's so true. In fact, I think it basically is. It's something of, like, the premise that you're exploring in Child Star, which is, like, when you achieve what you believe you want, not only are. Chances are not only that it won't fulfill you, but because you have achieved it and it alone does not fulfill you, you stand a great chance of feeling, in some ways worse or just a surprise disappointment, this sort of hollowness, because it's like, what. That is not fulfilling me. So therefore, you know, what is wrong with me that it's not fulfilling.

[Demi Lovato]

Right. Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Penn]

By the way, I really love the tone that you've struck in the film. And here.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

Which is you're not at all. I mean, I just. I want to say to anybody who's also listening. It's like, I don't experience it remotely as it's never complaining. It's like you're bearing witness to this phenomenon that we all bear witness to, but most of us are on one side of the phenomenon, and that is like, pop stardom, celebrity, whatever that is. You know, most people are watching it, and then there's a very few people who are going through it. And I feel like it's important for some of the people who are going through it to kind of bear witness to the reality of what it is, because so many people are transfixed, as you kind of see in the beginning of the film opening on these children kind of being asked, what do you want to be?

[Demi Lovato]

Ask them, what do you want to be when you grow up? And they all say they want to be famous. It's like society is so obsessed with celebrity and fame that it's kind of seeped into everything. It's in the consciousness of everyone's mind, including children. And so it's just wild how obsessed people are with fame and celebrity.

[Penn]

Do you struggle with feelings of, like, I broke down under this pressure, or do you feel that essentially anyone would break under that pressure? Because I think anyone would break under that pressure.

[Demi Lovato]

I think anyone would break under this pressure, absolutely. But I also am aware of the fact that I came into this industry with issues already an eating disorder and substance abuse behaviors. And so I kind of. It was only a matter of time before I cracked under the pressure, But I do think that anybody could crack. But then you look at certain celebrities that have not cracked under the pressure after being child stars, you know, they're.

[Penn]

Who are they?

[Demi Lovato]

I mean, like, Emma Watson. You know what I mean?

[Penn]

Yeah. Fair.

[Demi Lovato]

She went to.

[Penn]

Oh, good pick.

[Demi Lovato]

Fucking college.

[Penn]

Yeah. She does seem extremely. Although, you know, she probably have in all the private.

[Demi Lovato]

But we also don't know. That's the thing about, like, celebrity is you just never know. And we think we know, but we don't. And so it's just interesting to, like. And I was fascinated, which is one of the reasons why I made this film is like, why do we turn out the way that we did? And how does it affect me today? Is it something that I still want to do? Why did I feel like I needed so much validation outside validation? And it was just all these, like, facets, and then.

[Penn]

Do you feel like you're getting answers to those questions?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, I do. I feel like, for instance, one of the questions is like, do I want to still do this today? You know, Going into this film, I was like considering retirement because I didn't know if it fulfilled me anymore. But for some reason it was so therapeutic working on this project, realizing that, like, I don't need success. I don't need to. Yeah, I don't need success. I need to be happy. And at the end of the day, music does make me happy and that's why I want to continue it. I don't want to do it because of obligation to, you know, or not obligation, but I don't want to do it because I feel like I have to. I want to do it because I love it. And working on this film has helped me kind of fall back in love with music.

[Penn]

Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I love your single. It's come out.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

I really like it.

[Demi Lovato]

That was like an example of me going into the studio and like finally loving something that I worked on. I'm like, I'm so self critical that, like working on this album. I'm working on a new album right now. Working on this album. I have had a really hard time, like finding my sound and going into the studio and like finding that confidence again with, you'll be okay, kid. I was like, you know what? Like, I do love music, I do love writing, I do love working on this and I want to still continue it. So it was, it was a cool experience getting to record that.

[Penn]

Yeah. It sounds to me like you, you know, the same way you were talking about balancing the masculine and feminine in you and kind of maybe returning to a sense of equilibrium. It sounds to me like with the new track you. You like leaned really hard into rock to get back to your roots in a way. And there's. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe you have like something way more intense and. And rock infused coming. But it sounds like you, you kind of. This new track has that to it, but then it's also. It's got these other elements. So it's like it's maybe, I don't know, finding this balance.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, I mean, what I'm doing in the studio now is not rock at all, but I'm having a great time working on it. And you know, I've spent a year exploring with my sound, like trying all these different genres. And I think I know what I'm doing right now. I've just been like playing basically. And there's something so innocent in playing and creating and it just brings me so much joy.

[Penn]

That's awesome. You can hear it. I mean, if that new single is Like a vision of it. I mean, I feel like I'm seeing it.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

What are you exploring in the film and what do you want to say about minors in their relationship to social media? Because there's so many young people who are just blowing up.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes.

[Penn]

And have. And in this unprecedented way. Right. I mean, it's like, it's like people view as you say, as you. You see the stats and the thing. It's like, you know, there's. There's traditional media.

[Demi Lovato]

Yes.

[Penn]

Which is what people our age and older are like. Yeah, that's everything. Right. But then it's like, no, no, no, no, no. There's tick tock and YouTube.

[Demi Lovato]

Right.

[Penn]

And the views that we're getting on this stuff is just so much more. So actually these young people who, like, whose names I don't know, whose names that a lot of our listeners wouldn't even know, to a 17 year old, to a 15 year old, to a 13 year old, they're just massive and they're like world famous. And so the same way that back in the day you had the Coogan laws, which is from an old. A child actor way back in the early days, which you go into in the film, it's like we need an updated version of that. Right?

[Demi Lovato]

We do. Well, you know, luckily legislation always follows technology and so what we like, I believe that there will be protections put in place. We just have to get there first. Something that was really interesting to me working on this film was like talking to JoJo Siwa. Being a part of the digital age, growing up with social media and the pressure on there, I was really fascinated and then also exploring, you know, how there are children on social media that are being commodified. And I just was like, there needs. I was like, where are the protections? Being a child in the acting industry, you have the Coogan law and that is a trust that a percentage of your money goes into when you. I'll start from the beginning. Jackie Coogan was a child actor and his parents stole a bunch of money from him. And like, that's a long story short. But they introduced this law helping to protect kids and the entertainment industry where if you were to go on a job, a percentage of that would go into a trust for you so that when you turn 18, you would have money that came into the picture that you worked so hard for. And the reality is there are no protections like that put in place for the digital age. So like these kids that are on YouTube making tens of millions of dollars for unboxing toys. There's no protections put in place for their compensation. And also, if one day they say, you know what, I don't want to be on the Internet anymore, they should have the right to be able to take that down. And so there are protections trying to be put in place for that as well. I actually learned that there is a bill in California that's sitting on Governor Gavin Newsom's desk right now, and hopefully that'll get signed. But this isn't the first, you know, that's. We need these protections put in place because right now it's the wild, wild west. But yeah, France actually just passed a law that protects minors on social media. And this isn't just for, like, minors that are in their family's videos and you don't have to. It's just for the children that deserve to be compensated. And also, if a child wants their, you know, likeness or image taken down, they should have the freedom to do that because they were a minor when it was put up.

[Penn]

What's next for you?

[Demi Lovato]

I've been cooking a lot, and it's a part of my eating disorder recovery is learning to rebuild my relationship with food by stepping into the kitchen and preparing meals for myself. That's an act of self love for me, and it's very healing. And so I've been learning how to cook. I am not an expert. I'm very much a beginner. And I've just been having fun making dishes in the kitchen that are, like, relatively easy but fun to make. And I tell people that when I cook, it's the biggest fuck you to my eating disorder that I could possibly give.

[Penn]

That's cool.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah. So I've started doing that. You have a favorite dish. It's been really fun. I don't have a lot of. I don't have a favorite dish to make. I love baking. So, like, baking like a cake for someone for their birthday or like brownies, they seem to be a hit with people, so that's cool. I love baking. Yeah.

[Penn]

All right, I'll just, I'll go to our last question.

[Demi Lovato]

Okay.

[Penn]

So it's like, it's. It's a double back. I have a feeling. I feel like you've answered this question with your. With your new single. Is it. You'll be okay, kid?

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Yeah. I've been listening to it a lot. I just couldn't remember the title.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

If you could go back to 12 year olds demi.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.

[Penn]

What would you do or say?

[Demi Lovato]

If I could go back to 12 year old Demi, I'd say a lot. I'd give that little 12 year old girl I identified as a girl at that time, I would give her a lot of advice some of which would be just remember you're so beautiful. Like I spent so many years of my life hating my image and my eating disorder and I wish that I could have just told myself at such a, at a young age like and forced it into my brain that you are beautiful and it's okay to take breaks. Yeah. That also that meaningful connections are what are the most important thing will be the most important thing in my life. I value connection over success any day.

[Penn]

That's beautiful.

[Demi Lovato]

Thank you.

[Penn]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for coming.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Penn]

I really appreciate it.

[Demi Lovato]

And like I said, such a big fan of you and thank you and you.

[Penn]

So we're interchangeable at this point.

[Demi Lovato]

Yeah.