[Rerun] Elizabeth Lail

Summary

Podcrushed [Rerun]: Elizabeth Lail

Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Elizabeth Lail
Release Date: March 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This season one finale episode of Podcrushed brings back Elizabeth Lail, best known for her roles in "You," "Gossip Girl" reboot, and "Once Upon a Time." The hosts, Penn, Nava, and Sophie, reminisce about favorite moments from the season before diving into a conversation with Elizabeth about her Southern upbringing, formative middle school experiences, struggles with early shame and faith, the complexities of toxic love tropes, and reflections on fame and identity. The tone is candid, humorous, at times raw, and always empathetic.

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Season One Reflections & Banter

Timestamps: 00:44 – 07:10

Key Points:

• The trio reflects on favorite—and most awkward—moments from the season, setting a nostalgic and self-deprecating tone.
• Penn recalls recording in the sweltering London heat and loving the episode because "I just got to talk the most." (01:26)
• Sophie relishes when Drew Barrymore said, “I love you” (02:27), and describes the hilarity of guest confusion over her parents’ names.
• Nava shares her fangirl moment with Amy Schumer, where Amy quipped, “Nava, you’re scaring me.” (03:59)
• Penn admits he was initially nervous about negative feedback but found the audience to be "the sweetest corner of the Internet" with heartfelt comments and personal DMs. (05:05)
• The group expresses gratitude and uncertainty about the show's return:

  “It's hard cuz I just don't know if we're going to come back. But… I love you. Okay? I do. I know it's weird and I know we can never be together, but I just… I love you.” — Penn (06:25)

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Welcoming Elizabeth Lail

Timestamps: 07:10 – 10:41

• Penn introduces Elizabeth Lail, reminiscing about her major roles and their shared past on "You."
• The group immediately launches into playful banter about family, awkward set experiences, and the complications of being recognized in public.

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Early Life & Middle School in Asheboro

Timestamps: 10:42 – 15:34

Elizabeth’s Background:

• Grew up in Asheboro, North Carolina—a small town labeled as dying, then later revitalized and lauded for its beauty.

• Actively participated in community events, even hosting Chamber of Commerce awards.

  “I was very involved in my community growing up.” (13:33)

• Describes Asheboro as loving, lovely, but still facing social and historical challenges (e.g., ongoing efforts to remove Confederate statues).

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Formative Middle School Experiences

Timestamps: 15:35 – 19:37

• Elizabeth reflects on her shy, sensitive nature, a passion for theater, and social struggles as a cheerleader.

  “My heart hurts when I think of 12-year-old Elizabeth ... seventh grade, worst time of my life, worst year of my life.” (15:04)

• Details her experience with early sexual attention, harassment from boys, and the public shaming she internalized.
• Theater became a safe space for self-expression and emotional refuge.

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Religion, Shame, and Growth

Timestamps: 19:38 – 22:47

• After facing public shaming, Elizabeth “doubled down” on Christianity, seeking acceptance and moral clarity.
• “I became super Christian… I was like, oh, I never want to feel this kind of shame or judgment again, I'm going to be the best Christian there is.” (20:24)
• Reflects on how faith provided a core group and resilience but struggles with the term “Christian” as an adult.

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Love, Marriage, and Family

Timestamps: 22:48 – 27:36

• Nava notes Elizabeth married a Persian Baha'i, which she admits her parents embraced graciously.
• Challenges childhood lessons about marrying “equally yoked” and describes her parents as liberal-minded and supportive, contrary to Southern stereotypes.

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Tales of First Love & Adolescence

Timestamps: 27:37 – 29:50

• Talks about her first boyfriend, Andrew—the hottest guy in school—and the innocent logistics of middle school romance (“his mom took us on all our dates”).
• The mall, then and now, is a social hub for young teens.

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Embarrassing Middle School Stories

Timestamps: 29:51 – 32:36

• Elizabeth recounts a classic “period story”—ruining a khaki skirt during exams and using her teacher’s jacket to hide the stain, with her mom coming to the rescue.

  “...the most massive blood stain on your khaki... on a khaki skirt is really bad.” (31:07)

• Notes the heightened shame and lack of coping tools typical for that age.

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On Working Together in "You"

Timestamps: 35:00 – 39:37

• Elizabeth and Penn recall doing chemistry reads and the awkwardness of auditioning with/against other actresses.
• Elizabeth: “I hate it when they do that...they're kind of using the other one to prove their point...to make sure they can pay you as little as possible, maybe.” (35:21)
• They reflect on Beck's character and the persistent, often gendered, fan reactions to Joe and Beck; Penn jokes about Joe's ongoing fan appeal despite his murderous ways.

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Toxic Love Tropes & Relationships

Timestamps: 39:38 – 45:48

• The panel explores damaging pop culture tropes:
  • The idea that “real love” means emotional possession, never cheating, never leaving.
  • Relationships as fundamentally “bondage” rather than liberating partnership.
  • The myth that love “just happens” without any effort, instead of it being an active, evolving practice.
• Notable insights:
  • Penn: “The most toxic, that love just happens, that there's no work. ... We believe that it's a magic feeling that visits you, and then we do virtually nothing to cultivate it.” (41:14)
  • Elizabeth: “How can we be in love and give love by giving someone freedom to be every part of themself inside...the relationship? That's what I'm looking for.” (39:38)
• Sophie debunks “you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else.”

  "I think you learn about yourself in relationship to other people." (45:22)

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Friendship as Love and Codependency

Timestamps: 45:56 – 48:50

• Elizabeth unpacks how early friendships can become codependent, obsessive, or controlling, especially when identity is still forming.
• Reflects on the portrayal of female friendship in "You" (Beck and Peach).

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Masculinity, Emotional Expression, and Sports

Timestamps: 48:51 – 49:59

• Penn and Elizabeth discuss how men are socialized to only express affection in sports contexts—rarely elsewhere.
• Elizabeth: “I'm like, thank God for sports. In some ways, I feel like sports is theater for the masses. It gives catharsis and feeling and freedom.” (48:51)

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Iconic Scenes & The Legacy of Beck

Timestamps: 50:50 – 54:54

• Elizabeth’s favorite scene: intense moments in “the cage” with Penn, likening the experience to theater with high emotional stakes.
• Discusses how fans' recognition is mostly tied to “You,” and how daily life in NYC mirrors Beck’s fictional world—minus, thankfully, the stalking and murder.

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On Fame, Recognition, and Awkwardness

Timestamps: 54:55 – 56:50

• Elizabeth recounts a mortifying incident where she tried to confirm a waiter’s suspicion she was a TV actress, only to find out he just thought she worked at a local bar.

  “He googled you, but no, I haven't seen any of your shows. You just really look like that girl from the bar.” (56:05)

• Lesson: Play recognition cool!

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"You" Theories and Female Rage

Timestamps: 56:52 – 61:13

• Nava and Elizabeth speculate on Joe’s ultimate fate.
• Elizabeth suggests “death by a thousand cuts,” ideally by a group of women, and entertains a fantasy of a female “Joe” as a form of catharsis for suppressed feminine anger.

  “In my mind, the perfect movie is like, a group of women battling men and winning... It’s not to say that I think that’s the best thing for humanity... but it’s what I want.” (58:48)

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Advice to 12-Year-Old Self

Timestamps: 61:21 – 64:52

• Elizabeth:

  “You are all good. Every part of you is good and worthy. You’re allowed to have a favorite color. You’re allowed to disagree. ... You’re allowed to step outside of the rules.” (61:30)

• Discusses the deep-seated effects of “good girl” conditioning and how self-acceptance is a lifelong journey.

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Closing Reflections on Middle School

Timestamps: 65:01 – 65:25

• Elizabeth calls middle school a “shitty hard time” but appreciates the show’s willingness to talk openly about it:

  “I really do think everything ties back to it.” (65:20)

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Memorable Quotes

• “My heart hurts when I think of 12-year-old Elizabeth… seventh grade, worst time of my life.” — Elizabeth (15:04)
• “You are all good. Every part of you is good and worthy.” — Elizabeth (61:30)
• “The most toxic [trope], that love just happens, that there's no work… It is an act. It’s a discipline, it’s a practice, it’s a life, it’s an activity.” — Penn (41:14)
• “It's hard ‘cause I just don't know if we're going to come back. ... I love you. Okay? I do.” — Penn (06:25)
• “Are you the girl that dies?” — Elizabeth (56:45)

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Notable/Memorable Moments

• Drew Barrymore’s loving shout-out to Sophie (02:27)
• Amy Schumer’s “Nava, you’re scaring me” (03:59)
• Elizabeth’s mortifying “period and khaki skirt” story (31:07)
• Waiter thinking Elizabeth was just “that girl from the bar” (56:05)

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Listener Middle School Story

Timestamps: 65:29 – 68:29

• Features a story about being accidentally de-skirted in front of the lunchroom; an episode-long motif of middle school's humiliations and the show's empathetic, playful approach to adolescent pain.

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Final Thoughts

Season one wraps with gratitude, hope for a return, and an affirmation: the turbulence of adolescence leaves an indelible mark, but sharing stories—humiliating or heartwarming—makes everyone feel less alone.

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For more:
Follow Podcrushed on [Instagram/Twitter] (@podcrushed) and individual hosts’ socials. Full back catalog on all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Lail]

He's like. He's like, oh, I googled you, but no, I haven't seen any of your shows. You just really look like that girl from the bar. And I. My husband, he was just like, that's the worst that's ever gone. And he was like. He was like, you cannot do that again. You can't be like, oh, you might know me from tv.

[Nava Kavlan]

This is Pod Crushed, the podcast that

[Penn Badgley]

takes the sting out of rejection one crushing middle school story at a time.

[Sophie Ansari]

And where guests share their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying.

[Nava Kavlan]

And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher.

[Penn Badgley]

And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout.

[Nava Kavlan]

Guys, this is. This is our last banter session of season one. I can't believe it.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't think we can call them a banter session to our listeners. That's like. That's like. That's like breaking the fourth wall. This isn't a banter session. We're friends. This is spontaneous.

[Sophie Ansari]

We have a group chat.

[Penn Badgley]

We're real friends, and we're not doing this for money.

[Nava Kavlan]

I have a question. As we know, I love nostalgia. I'm already feeling nostalgic about the season. I want to know, Pen and Sophie, what were your favorite. What was a favorite moment from this season?

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, my gosh.

[Penn Badgley]

What's coming to mind? I actually said this before. Whenever somebody asks me what my favorite thing is, I immediately go to, oh, what was the most uncomfortable?

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay, I want to know.

[Penn Badgley]

And all that came in my mind was, so when we recorded the episode, it was just us. It was in the middle of the heat wave in London, and I had to have headphones on and turn off the. Well, there was no AC in that house, but there was a fan. And I even had to close the door and have the windows closed and all that. And these houses in London are not built to lose heat. They're built to retain heat because it's not ever that hot in London. And I guess they stopped inventing things 150 years ago or something. I'm not sure, but. And I was sweating, sweating so much in that session. And then we had to do, like, you know, some pickups afterward or something. And I just remember having those headphones on for so long and then being just like, wet afterward. Oh, man. But I wanna tell you, I also really liked that episode. Cause we got to learn more about each other, and I just got to talk the most.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, that's your favorite thing.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

My favorite moment from this season. I mean, I have so many I can't choose. But the first was when Drew Barrymore said that she loved me.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I love you. God. Sexy.

[Sophie Ansari]

That is a life highlight for sure. And then the second, I think it got cut out of the episode, was she. Drew Barrymore said hi to our parents. She said hi to Nava's dad, Tommy, and she said hi to my parents. But this was early on. I don't think Pen knew the names of my parents. Uh, Drew definitely did. Yeah. Drew Barrymore definitely didn't know the name of my parents. They're Helen and Dan. And they were going by all sorts of names throughout this episode. Alan and Gale, Ellen and Vale. I don't know. All sorts of different names. And it was just really funny to me.

[Penn Badgley]

I thought you were gonna say when she said you took a pause after hi, you're like, when Drew Barrymore said

[Sophie Ansari]

hi, that was it for me.

[Penn Badgley]

I was like, oh, so the bar's low. The bar's pretty low right now.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavlan]

I'm just obsessed with Drew Barrymore. I. Yes. My favorite moment. I agree with Sophie. So many. But I love Amy Schumer. I'm a huge Amy Schumer fan, and I. I don't know if you guys know this. I don't know if we've ever talked about it. She was the first person to say yes to agree to come on the show, even though she wasn't our pilot. And I was, like, so excited that she agreed to come on. Couldn't believe it. And at one point, she was, like, sharing an anecdote, and I, like, every time she would share a story, I knew it. Like, I was nodding along. I was, like, finishing her sentence, because I have, like, read and listened to everything she's ever done.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And.

[Nava Kavlan]

And so at one point, I, like, knew, like, a very random, obscure fact, and I was like, oh, yeah, you talked about that, like, a year ago. And she said, nava, you're scaring me.

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay, Nava, you're scaring me.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Nava, you're scaring me.

[Nava Kavlan]

That was my favorite moment.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't remember that at all. That was the most nervous I've been for an interview.

[Nava Kavlan]

Really?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Because that was way early in the game. I had zero experience interviewing, whereas Now I have zero plus, like, 30 hours. And I feel like in that interview, you can hear me just sort of waiting and being embarrassed. At least that's what I can hear. Yeah. I think where I was in flow stage most as an interviewer, somehow, I think Might have been in the Mona Chalaby episode. I was in London then and she's British and just talking about maybe that culture. It's just there was something about that episode where and we all really opened up really. It really was just a nice moment. And I feel like that was when I finally started to believe in this show.

[Sophie Ansari]

That was the moment. Six months in.

[Penn Badgley]

Six months and halfway through. No, I'm kidding.

[Sophie Ansari]

No. But in all seriousness, it's thanks to you guys that we have a show. So really thank you for tuning in and listening and being here with us and journeying back into middle school.

[Nava Kavlan]

I was nervous when we started the show about negative comments. You just hear that there's always negative comments and I feel like we stumbled upon the sweetest corner of the Internet. The comments have been such a highlight. And so, I mean, love the heart emojis. Fire emojis. That's wonderful. But also some really like heartfelt.

[Penn Badgley]

But please stop.

[Nava Kavlan]

But people have also left us really heartfelt, meaningful messages and DM'd us about like true, like personal things. And it's been so touching for people to open their hearts to us. So I'm really grateful.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I agree with that. I second that. Ditto is what tried. Patrick Swayze wouldn't say more. Why wouldn't he say more? Or was it Demi Moore who wouldn't say it back? Who wouldn't say I love you back in Ghost?

[Sophie Ansari]

No, I don't think anyone but you

[Elizabeth Lail]

has watched Ghost and you always bring it up.

[Penn Badgley]

Are you kidding me?

[Sophie Ansari]

We've cut it.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm realizing right now how iconic this movie is in my memory of just like, I don't know, just life and storytelling. I do reference it more than once. Funny. Yeah. I wann give a big shout out to all of our listeners. It's hard cuz I just don't know if we're going to come back. But I want to take this opportunity. It's fine. It's fine. It's good that you hear it now. I love you. Okay. I do. I. I know it's weird and I know we can never be together, but I just. I love you. Okay.

[Nava Kavlan]

Hello? Hello?

[Penn Badgley]

Hello? And they hung up. Okay, well, moving on to today's guest. And of course this means it's our final guest of season one. None other than Elizabeth Lail, who you may know from her time playing Guinevere Beck inside of a glass box. Not your phone. No. Joe Goldberg's glass box. Oh, box A Rooney on my show. You.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Hello. Do you work here?

[Penn Badgley]

Guilty. Can I help you find something?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Paula Fox.

[Penn Badgley]

It's a good choice.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I feel weirdly validated.

[Penn Badgley]

Follow me. Or as Lola Morgan on the Gossip Girl reboot.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Like, is it his problem or mine for caring so much Moral of the story, you can't rely on any man. You can only rely on yourself. Right? That's so fucking true.

[Penn Badgley]

Maybe even as Princess Anna from once upon a time.

[Elizabeth Lail]

So I was never even tempted by that inner darkness you speak of. In fact, I don't even think I have one. I'm unlike you. Nice.

[Penn Badgley]

It was such a joy catching up with her. I'm so happy she could join us for our season finale. Don't you go anywhere. We will be right back.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonada Media is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Penn Badgley]

It's morning in New York. Hey, everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I'm Kathryn Grody.

[Penn Badgley]

And we have a new podcast. It's called don't listen to us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me what is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us.

[Nava Kavlan]

Our take it or leave it advice show every Wednesday. Out now.

[Penn Badgley]

A Lemonada Media original. I was just going to ask you candidly, what is your middle name?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Dean.

[Penn Badgley]

Dean. I remember that.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Elizabeth Dean. I love that.

[Penn Badgley]

It's a very like, very southern short.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes, very short.

[Penn Badgley]

Very short in comparison to Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's my dad's name. Yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Elizabeth Dean, your parents are lovely. Lovely. By the way.

[Elizabeth Lail]

You met my parents?

[Penn Badgley]

I met them when they came to set, I think once. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And that was a really awkward day because I was like masturbating, can I say?

[Sophie Ansari]

And they talk about that.

[Penn Badgley]

We talk about that a lot, Jill. Masturbating a lot. Okay, so you're all good.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. Did you see the shame spiral that came over me when I said that word out loud?

[Penn Badgley]

I know. Right next to talk about your parents, let's just. Okay now, let's just break this down now. Hold on. So, Elizabeth Dean Lael, you're our last guest for this season.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Oh my.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And I think it's just. I think it's just A really fitting cap to our first season. Your parents were a window into your past, I think, a little bit, because they were very. Just incredibly sweet, and you seemed like you were from a very different place. Yeah. And from them.

[Elizabeth Lail]

A very different place than New York City, then.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, than New York City slash the Hollywood, you know, because when you're on set, you're just sort of perpetually in Hollywood, you know, and so that was really nice.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I am not perpetually in Hollywood in any kind of way.

[Penn Badgley]

That's good.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I don't think.

[Penn Badgley]

No.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Or I don't feel it on the inside. I was thinking about this podcast, and I was like, oh, I'm pretty much the same person I was in middle school. Really? I still have all the same symptoms or all the same conditions.

[Penn Badgley]

Symptoms are of a disease

[Elizabeth Lail]

or. I still have the symptoms from middle school. Yeah, right, right. Perhaps I'm better able to deal with them. But I'm very much a product of my parents, and they are very sweet and hyper supportive, and they were thrilled to be there.

[Penn Badgley]

They were.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Despite the fact that their daughter was playing an adult, which is what they told the Sunday school class.

[Sophie Ansari]

That is such a good little line. Elizabeth is playing an adult.

[Penn Badgley]

She's playing an adult. She's m. Being in a motel room.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Who I really feel bad for is my grandparents. Well, did they watch sweet grandparents? They watch everything. My grandmother actually read the book.

[Penn Badgley]

What?

[Elizabeth Lail]

And then read the second book.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my goodness.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Wow. So. So she probably won't listen to this. So I can just say. I just. Wait, hold on. Wait. No, no, no.

[Penn Badgley]

Wait a second. Wait a second. She read the first two books and won't listen to this.

[Elizabeth Lail]

She might, but I don't cover.

[Penn Badgley]

We've got to be way more in your grandmother's lane than book two of Joe Friggin Goldberg.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes, but books are very old school.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And podcasts are very new school.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's access to podcasts that I'm not sure we could. We could create.

[Penn Badgley]

I think you're right about that. And that's an interesting litmus test right there.

[Elizabeth Lail]

She might not remember. She could listen to this and then not remember. Yeah. Very sweet. It's a sad time growing up. Any who

[Penn Badgley]

you were raised in Asheboro, North Carolina.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. Which is a very different kind of place from Hollywood or New York, where we met. Can you tell us a little bit, like, just paint in the broadest strokes a picture? Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, I think maybe like 15 years ago, Asheborough was like, top 10 dying cities of the United States dying. Yes. It's no longer that. It's booming and they beautified it. And I feel like a couple years ago it got top 10 most quintessentially beautiful towns.

[Penn Badgley]

So what happened?

[Sophie Ansari]

I don't know.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's an excellent question. I had very little to do with it, although I do host the Chamber of Commerce awards every once in a while.

[Penn Badgley]

Wait, what does that mean?

[Elizabeth Lail]

It means I was very involved in my community growing up.

[Penn Badgley]

That's really sweet.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So how are you a politician?

[Elizabeth Lail]

No, but it's cool because you get to talk to a lot of politicians on both sides and they're very charming in North Carolina.

[Sophie Ansari]

Interesting.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And suddenly you see how it all happens. You're like, oh, this is how people get on certain sides.

[Penn Badgley]

This is how it all collapses.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, sorry, this is a stupid joke. But it's beautiful. It's a lovely. It's a small town. It's got its divisions issues, it's got its history. I think they're still working on getting some Confederate statues down there, but there are a group of people working on that. So to me, that's a positive for a rural town.

[Penn Badgley]

Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. When you were in middle school, did it feel like a very small place?

[Elizabeth Lail]

It felt like my entire world in a really beautiful way. In a way that I'm very grateful for now. Now that the world is so large because of social media and because of the industry that I'm in, I feel really grateful that I grew up thinking these were the most important people in my life, like my friends, my family, my church and school and middle school. But it was kind of life or death in that way as well.

[Sophie Ansari]

Elizabeth, can you tell us a little bit about yourself in middle school?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Oh, boy. My heart hurts when I think of 12 year old Elizabeth, which is an interesting reaction when you say that. I just like want to hold her and hug her. I've even said throughout my life, seventh grade, worst time of my life, worst year of my life.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Really?

[Elizabeth Lail]

You don't have any of the coping tools or perspective that you have as an adult. So the same things could happen later, but suddenly, you know it's going to be okay. But when it happens in middle school,

[Penn Badgley]

it's kind of the first time a

[Elizabeth Lail]

lot of those things are happening. Yeah, I feel very much the same person at my core. Shy, desperate to be an actress. Even at 12, I was doing like community theater and I thought, this is the best thing ever. Kind of the one place I felt safe and secure and free Silly. I was a cheerleader.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

You actually did. I remember you. Didn't you?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Did I do a cheer for you?

[Penn Badgley]

No, not for me. There was, like, a cheer joke we had, wasn't there? I feel like. Yes. It was like, yeah, you're doing this. You're so. You're so naturally doing this. It's like your elbows just lock into position and, you know, you're just naturally peppy. You're just ready to cheer.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes, naturally peppy.

[Penn Badgley]

And I do recall that was some kind of running joke we had in season one, but it's hard to.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's kind of my personality. Like, ready to be, like, supportive and peppy, but could cry at any moment. Oh, my gosh.

[Nava Kavlan]

That's such a.

[Penn Badgley]

It means you need a cheerleader. You need someone cheering you on.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, I do. That's beautiful.

[Nava Kavlan]

But, Elizabeth, that also makes you such a good actress. Like, that combination of qualities, I feel is, like, that's what you want also. An actress. Cry on a dime. That's amazing.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Being unstable.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes. Well, thank God for middle school, right? Thank God.

[Penn Badgley]

So let's dig into that a little bit.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Okay. Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, you know, you're free to give the level of detail you're comfortable with. By the way, we're not like a,

[Elizabeth Lail]

you know, a therapy session.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I was gonna say tabloid article. We're closer to a therapy session, but it's, you know, it's up to you how far you want to go. But, like, if seventh grade was the hardest year, is there. I mean, is there an event that made it that? Or was it just the coming to terms with, like, you know, the world you're growing into?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, I think suddenly you. You start to become. Or I started to become a bit older, more of a woman. And then suddenly I had, like, sexual desire, a lot of attention, which at the time, you're just kind of laughing off and feel really uncomfortable with and so much, so ashamed of. And you don't realize, like, when I look back at middle school, I'm like, oh, I was being sexually harassed pretty much on a daily basis by really terrible boys. It's like I can extend them grace because of that age and that time and society. So it's not like I harbor any kind of ill will towards them. But I think it did quite a number on me emotionally. But I had. I, you know, and I had my seventh grade boyfriend. And it was like, if we kissed or did anything, the whole school knew. And then suddenly you were like, the whore of Asheboro. Right. Which in A very Christian town is the last thing you want to be. So it was very Scarlet Letter esque.

[Penn Badgley]

I was gonna say the Whore of Asheboro sounds like a really good play. Just for what it's worth, I mean, I don't know if you're.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I like that. I like that.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's set it streaming on Hulu.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Let's set it in, like, Puritan times or something.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I mean, I imagine I'm not the only one, but you don't have the words for it. And you also. It's like, I didn't do anything about it. You just kind of laugh or keep your head down or lie. Like, you just hide, hide, hide. I did a lot of hiding in middle school, which, again, I think is why I found so much comfort in the theater, because suddenly you were allowed to be loud or crazy or silly or sexual. You were. You were allowed to be those things in an expressive way that I clearly very wasn't allowed in my mind and somewhat from society to express in my real life.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I still suffer from that today. That's what I mean. It's like that kind of stuff stays with you. That kind of, like, public shaming stays with you.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I actually, you know, I'm recalling that we.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Did we talk about this.

[Penn Badgley]

I think we talked about this on set. This was before anybody knew the show was gonna be like, you know, some giant, strange hit.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

We're making a show about a murderer, like, and, you know, again, spoiler, he kills her at the end. And so, you know, you and I were more than anybody grappling with this. Like, what is the story that we're bringing to life here? Yeah. And yeah, I remember you talking about this specifically, like, the shame, the sort of sexual shame that felt. It was just sort of pervasive and impressed upon you in middle school.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I became. Because of that shame, I became super Christian. So I already had grown up in a Christian home and was already participating in church, but because I was like, oh, I never want to feel this kind of shame or judgment again, I'm going to be the best Christian there is.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, that's doubling down on the shame.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes, I know, exactly. Yeah. So I did that all through high school.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow. All right.

[Sophie Ansari]

And what's your relationship to faith or to Christianity now?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, in so many ways, I'm really grateful for it because it also gave me. Even though there is a lot of judgment involved in it, my particular friend group was really lovely, and it gave me a really strong core of friends that I actually didn't really have in middle school other than in my youth group. I didn't have it at school. All my, like, youth group friends went to the South Asheboro High, and I went to North Asheboro. And so I was thinking, I was like, man, I really didn't have any good, good friends in middle school proper. So in a lot of ways, I'm very grateful for my faith. And in some ways, I, like, credit my faith to any kind of success I've had in this particular industry because it's so, like, hard on the psych and the heart. But faith, like, that kind of faith foundation, I think really helps me just believe that everything's gonna be okay and kind of keeps me from hitting any kind of rock bottom. But I wouldn't, like. I wouldn't ascribe the term Christian to me now, mostly because for me, it's not. It's not necessarily useful. And there's enough stuff there that doesn't work for me. That isn't, to me, like, a loving way of living. So it's. In a way, I feel like I've taken all the good things, and I've tried to treasure that and hold onto it, but I'm very triggered. If I go into a church, I can be very easily triggered. And there's really, like, only one church in New York City where I feel like this preacher and I are on the same page.

[Penn Badgley]

That's really interesting.

[Nava Kavlan]

Elizabeth, I have a question about your parents, and my understanding is that you have married a Baha' I who's also Persian, which is, I would think, a little bit unexpected for, like, a southern girl from Asheboro who grew up quite Christian.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavlan]

And I just wanted to know, well,

[Elizabeth Lail]

it's really Pen's fault that that happened. We want to blame anyone, It's Pen,

[Nava Kavlan]

how did your family receive that? And growing up, is that something you could have pictured, marrying someone outside the church?

[Elizabeth Lail]

You know, what's interest is, in middle school, I was in, like, purity class, and a big part of it was, oh, you have to marry someone equally yoked. This is always the term. I don't know if they use that term in the Baha' I faith. It has something to do with a mule and another mule being yoked together.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I've never.

[Elizabeth Lail]

To pull the wagon.

[Penn Badgley]

To me, that sounds like what you say in a gym, like, I'm yoked right now. That's what that sounds like to me.

[Elizabeth Lail]

No, that's equally. I believe it's committed or equally, it's a verse in the Bible. I Guess take it as you will, but I think it's meant to be. Yeah. Like, you kind of move as one.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Yeah. Which is a beautiful sentiment in its essence.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It is a beautiful sentiment. Yes. And I was very much on that path. I had a very handsome boyfriend in middle school and he moved away. This was like in the eighth grade. But I was the cheerleader and he was basketball player on the other team.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And, yeah, I felt like, oh, this is as good as it's gonna get. This is the best. Yeah. And we were both, like, you know, into Christian music. And the Christian element was really the bond. Now, I'm sure if we were hanging out today, there'd be all kinds of ways in which we don't get along.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't know why you'd assume that.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, I don't know. Fitting. I don't know, because I do feel in a lot of ways for my friends from that time, I've become a bit of a black sheep.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, sure.

[Elizabeth Lail]

People deal with those things, you know, in different ways. And I do feel like some people doubled down and was like, yes, this is the life for me. And I was like, actually, I think I need to go find my own life in my own way. My parents are actually very liberal minded, shockingly so. For, again, for their town and their upbringing. And they. They didn't blink twice. My parents are kind of, you know, you come to them with anything and they're the kind of people that are like, oh, we're there if it works and we're there if it doesn't. They've always, you know, encouraged my sister and I, I have an older sister, to be independent and, you know, make our. Make our own way and make our own life. And. And even though I felt enormous amount of pressure to be like the perfect Christian girl, I don't actually think that came from my parents. But I will say my parents in some ways feel like the perfect Christian family because they're incredibly patient, incredibly giving and incredibly present in their community in that way and somehow managed to have very different politics than their whole community. So I don't know how they do that, but I know my sister and I, we were both. We hate to disappoint and we really hate to disappoint them. I think my mom thought I would never get married. I think that was a part of her was like. Yeah, I think she thought. And because at some point in my life, again, I rebelled against that whole idea, which was I thought I would be, you know, married to someone at like 20 or 21. Something crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

Sounds like you were talking more like 16.

[Elizabeth Lail]

No, I mean, the way you were. Yeah. In middle school. Well, it's again, because women, I don't know for men, but I know for young women, we're brought up to prioritize that or to at least believe that's gonna be our way in life. And it is a very defining choice. It does define your life in a big way. But I know in that, obviously I also dreamt of becoming an actress, and I didn't realize that those two things might not coincide. So they were. My family's been very open to the Baha' I faith, and my mom did all this research and, like, it's a very similar upbringing. Like, he's going to like. What's it called? Bosh. Baha' I school, and I'm going to like, summer church camp. It's very similar.

[Sophie Ansari]

Right.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I think that's, like. I think that actually brought us together because we were both people who had this faith based upbringing who are now in our adult lives, kind of making it our own and prioritizing what's right for us and what's good for us.

[Sophie Ansari]

Elizabeth, can you tell us a little bit more about this 8th grade relationship that you had? Like your first love, it sounds like.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Should we name names? He knows who he is. His name was Andrew. And I'm telling you, he was the hottest guy in middle school. I swear, I had girls come up to me and I was not the hottest girl, but I thought I was, you know, but I had friends. Exact. Exactly. And he. I was actually doing a play, like a community children's play, and he came to see the play twice.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And he was like a friend of one of the guys in the play. And that's how we met.

[Penn Badgley]

This sounds like you're older again, because everything this year.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, I think I bloomed a little early. That's.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, no, because, I mean, like, the dynamic, like, he came twice. Like, what, his mom dropped him off?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yep.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, that's twice. I guess what I'm saying is, you know, the truth is, in middle school, especially if you live in Asheboro, it's not like you live in New York City, but you can walk everywhere. There's a level of agency you don't have, you know, but then you feel as though you're living this mature life. So the picture you just painted almost sound like you could be in your early 20s. Like you're in the play. And this guy came by twice, he saw the show twice, he like, spent the money on the. No, this man's mother is giving him everything, including cookies in his lunchbox.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's more of a big deal, honestly.

[Penn Badgley]

So I guess I'm just curious.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Like, his mom took us on all our dates.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right. Well, she would have had to.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Which included, like, walking around the neighborhood or walking around the mall.

[Sophie Ansari]

I do that now. Right.

[Penn Badgley]

The mall.

[Elizabeth Lail]

The good old. Oh, my gosh, the mall. What a spot. Yeah, I think it continues to be a spot now.

[Penn Badgley]

Really?

[Elizabeth Lail]

I think so. From the middle schoolers. My niece is 14.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, wow.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I think it can. And when I look at what's amazing, because for this, I was looking for pictures of me in middle school, sixth grade to eighth grade is. It's like, I look like a baby to. Not a. Not an adult, but very.

[Sophie Ansari]

The transformation is the growth that happens

[Elizabeth Lail]

in that short amount of time. I think a part of the reason why it can be so painful. Although my niece seems totally fine. I'm sure I seem totally fine, too.

[Penn Badgley]

Exactly. You gotta talk to your niece, Elizabeth.

[Nava Kavlan]

I know Elizabeth. We just have one more middle school question that we ask every guest, which is, do you have an embarrassing story? A lot of the stories we get deal with embarrassing moments. So we think it's, like, a fun thing to hear from our guests, if you have one.

[Elizabeth Lail]

The first one that comes to mind, of course, is a period story.

[Nava Kavlan]

Oh, yeah, Feel free.

[Penn Badgley]

That's great. We have a lot of those.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Okay, so I'm not. I just said, I love you. Wish about it. Yeah. I had had my period before. The first time it happened. I was in school gym, and sweet Diana gave me her jacket to tie around my waist, which.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

So I love her, but that's not the embarrassing story. The embarrassing story is I wore a khaki skirt to school. We were doing, like, end of grade testing, so it was like two or three hours sitting in one desk, and I kind of, like, went to stand up, and I was, like, wet, and I was like, oh, no, something's wrong. And my sweet teacher, Ms. Shoemaker, who also went to my church, thank God. I, like, called her over, and I was like, I have a problem. Something's gone terribly wrong. And it was like, the most massive blood stain on your khaki. Sorry, guys. Yeah, on a khaki skirt is really bad.

[Penn Badgley]

So, wait, so what did you do, though?

[Elizabeth Lail]

I mean, like, she also gave me her jacket to tie around my waist. We had to call my mom. My mom left work, went to the house, got me a jean skirt, and I Came back and she and I changed at school. I like waiting in the office. And then when I came out and I was like going, finishing the rest of the school day, everyone was like, oh my gosh, they made you change your skirt. Not that short. And that was. And that's what I told everyone. I was like, yeah, it was just too. Because there was the whole like, it had to be past your fingertips rule.

[Nava Kavlan]

Then they were like, Elizabeth's a whore. She wore a shirt.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's exactly. That's how it all started. War lore continued. It continued. I feel like that that was probably the most embarrassing because just anyone.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, that's rough.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Having to involve like now, of course I'll ask a stranger for a tampon. No problem.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

At that time you're like, this is it could not. I mean, thank God I didn't stand up and everyone saw. But thank you, Ms. Shoemaker.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. What would we do? Like if we're having an app to just track your period, like, it would just surprise you.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes, exactly. I was free balling it for a long time there intentionally. Whatever you want to call it.

[Penn Badgley]

Interesting use of the colloquial term. Yeah, it tracks.

[Nava Kavlan]

Stick around, we'll be right back.

[Sophie Ansari]

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[Elizabeth Lail]

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[Sophie Ansari]

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[Elizabeth Lail]

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[Sophie Ansari]

have a positive impact on your credit score.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate. And relationship classes. Let's fix that. I'm Shan, an ASEX certified sex educator

[Sophie Ansari]

with a master's in psych.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And on my podcast, Lovers by Shan, we make learning about love as mind blowing as making it. Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story.

[Sophie Ansari]

Then we uncover the lesson for all of us.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Watch Lovers by Shan from Lemonada Media

[Sophie Ansari]

on YouTube or listen wherever you like your podcast. You guys first met on the set of youf. Can you tell us about that experience?

[Elizabeth Lail]

So Penn and I did a chemistry read here in New York, but then I had to go, like, convince the big boys in LA after that.

[Penn Badgley]

You're kidding.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I tested against another girl.

[Penn Badgley]

You're kidding.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. Which I always feel. I hate it when they do that. They've done it to me, they've done it to other actresses that I know where we have to test against each other. But they're kind of using the other one to prove their point and to

[Penn Badgley]

make sure they can pay you as little as possible, maybe.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Oh, my goodness.

[Penn Badgley]

Yep. That's one of the reasons. Trust me. It's like number three.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. They're like, this one is good, but this one's gonna be cheaper. Yeah, but I thought we had pretty good chemistry.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you got it.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. Thank God. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And then, you know, you played Beck, which Joe. And Beck is the iconic. The Glass Box. The Glass Box special. The Glass Box special.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Really sweet. As the security guard downstairs in this building. He loves us, and he loves us together.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, did he say that?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Beck and Joe.

[Sophie Ansari]

He ships you.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. And he also. He was like, your character, yours was the sweetest. And I was like, I think that's true.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's true.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I Think that's definitely.

[Elizabeth Lail]

But at the time, but before the other seasons, I feel like Beck was pretty highly vilified because people were like, oh, my gosh, how could you cheat on him?

[Penn Badgley]

Well, that's just the magnification of the things you were talking about in your sort of small town.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Absolutely. And it still absolutely like the shame thrown at women.

[Penn Badgley]

Guys, how much more does Joe have to do for anybody to stop loving this man? It's just. Don't answer the question.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's just try to be a little less attractive.

[Sophie Ansari]

I think that would help break your nose or something.

[Penn Badgley]

I am doing what I can. It is pretty clear.

[Elizabeth Lail]

If you could just have maybe, you know, like, sleep less, what else could you do? You are going a little gray, but a little. Looks good.

[Penn Badgley]

Very much. Yeah. This is the thing.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's an injustice. It's an injustice.

[Nava Kavlan]

Elizabeth, when you guys were doing the press tour for the first season of youf, you talked a lot about, like, the toxic tropes of love and how the show is trying to kind of show you their logical conclusion. And I had, like, two questions thinking about that. But first of all, I thought you both spoke about it really eloquently. I was re watching, and I was really impressed with how you guys handled that press around a show that I think could have gotten you guys canceled in the wake of me too. So I think the way you handled.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, you're right, though. You're right in a way.

[Nava Kavlan]

Part of it had to do with the thoughtfulness of you two as human beings.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you, Neva.

[Nava Kavlan]

But so I had two questions that sort of came to mind. One is, I would love to hear from both of you a toxic trope about love that is still present that you think hasn't gotten debunked but is toxic if anything comes to mind. And then the other is in one of the press stories. Elizabeth, I don't know if you remember, but you talked about friendships becoming too obsessive and confusing, controlling and toxic in that way. And I was just curious if you could share more about that as well.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I think there are so many, like, love tropes that are still very. And I don't know if anyone ever is, like, digging around TikTok.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't know.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I don't do it very frequently, but every time I do, for some reason, something about my algorithm, it's like how to seduce a man. One on one.

[Nava Kavlan]

Really, you need to be on there.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's like, I don't even use you. Why? Like, I don't Participate in any way.

[Penn Badgley]

It's defaulting. That's its default.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's honestly the scariest time.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And I think there is. There, I mean there are just so many like toxic elements about love. And I do think that one of them is that like once there is this kind of like trapping obsessive, like now you're stuck in this element. Like if you really love me, like you wouldn't step out, you wouldn't cheat. If you really love me, you would stay with me forever. And I think those ideas are not useful in the human experience. From my limited time is like how can we be in love and give love by giving someone freedom to be every part of themself inside of the context of this relationship. That's what I'm looking for. That's what Beck was looking for that she could not get. She got a lot of intimacy and a lot of care from Jo, but she wasn't really allowed to be. To be all parts of herself.

[Penn Badgley]

I disagree.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Really?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I think he supported her in every way. That was. No, that's of course not true. Actually think what you just said is interesting because from what I was hearing, I mean maybe this is. You tell me if this is right. But I feel like the first perspective which was you wouldn't step out if you really loved me. It was love from like a deficit or scarcity perspective. It's a little bit like all the things you can't do as opposed to the things that you can do now that you're in a relationship. And I think that's actually sort of a world over thing. Or that's when we talk about toxic tropes. Like to me I feel like. Well, there's two things I'm thinking of. One is the way people increasingly view relationships is as a form of bondage, marriage especially, which although I completely understand because it's been wielded especially against women in a way that is that so.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well has been. That can easily fall into that.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. If you don't. That's so true. I'm glad you said that. Because if you're not intentional, it does default. Kind of like in anything. Anything that is systemic. This includes race, gender, class, everything. If you aren't intentionally working towards the new progressive way, then it will default. Even though you are not that way yourself or your partner, it will default into that if you don't put it on.

[Elizabeth Lail]

The system is built that way, the relationship is built that way.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And so that is a really interesting point that you highlight. And for that reason, because of that work, this is the trope that I think is the most toxic, that love just happens that there's no work. And also, then there's also this weird. The way people talk about the work is like, it's not really. I don't like that word work. It is an act. It's a discipline, it's a practice, it's a life, it's an activity. It's many things. It doesn't just visit you magically. And then, because what I think we are in the face of love is exceedingly passive, we believe that it's a magic feeling that visits you, and then we do virtually nothing to cultivate it. In fact, what we do is we sort of behave in a way that exhausts all of the potential that it has because you just sort of run on magical fuel and no kind of structure or restraint or patience or anything. And then the feelings run out because it's. Because the beginning of love is not the same thing as, you know, a lasting relationship. And then we wonder why the first time we start to feel bad, we're like, I'm falling out of love. Like, no, you just. You're completely. You're laying on the ground,

[Elizabeth Lail]

or you think you have enough time for this to pass or something. But. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's kind of what I meant, like, because when people don't feel like they're allowed to be their full selves or they still carry any kind of shame from middle school or beyond, you don't communicate. You don't. You don't say, like, hey, actually, that this doesn't work for me, this agreement that we have that we've always had. Like, at least in my relationship, we're kind of constantly having to reinvent the wheel because there's so much change and growth. I mean, even for me, from, like, 25 to 30.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And so, like, the. Like, I think that's a part of the work is like, being honest with yourself and then being able to be honest with your partner. But it takes breaking out of those social norms. It takes being like, oh, no, I don't want to be the thing that I thought I was supposed to be. Or, like, I don't want to practice love in the way that I. That I see it on tv. That's actually not enough for me. Or it doesn't feel good for me. But it's hard because we're so brainwashed

[Penn Badgley]

because we watch a lot of tv.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, we're so brainwashed to think, you know, I'LL be watching Bridgerton or something, and I'll be like, oh, yeah, that looks good. Yeah, you know, like passion costumes. But then if you think about it, you're like, oh, but these women have no rights. They have no choices. They have to get married. Like, thank God he's a duke. But what if he wasn't? You know what I mean? And so it's, like, very easy to get caught up in all those, like, toxic ideas of what it should be according to religion, according to politics, society, whatever.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, I think I have one, but, Nava, I'm curious if you have one.

[Nava Kavlan]

Well, I actually just have a response to Pens. I think that answer, like, like, for me, highlights how prevalent the media is in distorting our understanding of romantic love. Because if you think about any other kind of love, like, if I love a plant, I have to figure out what kind of soil this plant needs and how much exposure to sunlight and how often I need to water it. And if I don't do that, this plant will die. If I have a child, it's not going to figure itself out. I have to nurture and tend to. So why in a romantic relationship, don't you also need to learn about your partner and the conditions that allow you to, like, nurture that relationship the best? It doesn't just like. It's not just like an explosion and a fire that keeps going forever. But I think that's one of the images that we get, so we don't. So I think that's the kind of work that it is. Just like caring for a plant, caring for an animal, caring for your child. You care for your partner, you care for each other, you learn about that institution together. So, yeah, something about Penn's answer just, like, helped highlight for me how the media, particularly around romantic love, really distorts something about it.

[Penn Badgley]

Your answer helps me understand why my plants keep dying.

[Elizabeth Lail]

As long as your child's alive, I think great success.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. He hasn't eaten today. Oh, I gotta go.

[Nava Kavlan]

What's yours, Sophie?

[Sophie Ansari]

There's several, but I think the one that comes up for me a lot is like, you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else. I just don't think that's true. I think we naturally love, and I think you learn about yourself in relationship to other people.

[Elizabeth Lail]

So, yeah, they're a mirror.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you had to.

[Penn Badgley]

And who doesn't want to just look into a mirror

[Elizabeth Lail]

back. Something you might need. Might need to hear.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, yeah, I Don't know what you mean. We have the next question here. Moving on.

[Elizabeth Lail]

What was the second question?

[Nava Kavlan]

Oh, yeah. So in one of your press stories, you were like, it's not just romantic love that can become too obsessive. It's friendships. But then they didn't ask you a follow up, and I really wanted to know the follow up. Like, what were you referring to about friendships that become too controlling or too obsessive?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, well, I think, and I experienced this a little in middle school, like, nobody has an identity, and so you kind of cling to one another's identity. And, you know, you all dye your hair blonde, you all wear the same clothes, you all kind of like, subscribe to the same way of being, and then suddenly you can become very dependent on one another. I think I had, you know, I had a friend and I think I said one time I was like, oh, well, we might not go to the same college. And that was. Was devastating for her. And that's when I realized I was like, oh, I'm in a. I'm very much in a, like a deeply connected relationship. But that doesn't have room. It doesn't have space and room to be your own. It's kind of like we were always together. So we were. It's like. And I think, I'm sure in the context of the show, I was referring to Peach and Beck. Did they. Again, there's this kind of. Of codependent element. But it all comes, I mean, for me, as you can tell, I'm very just interested in being my own person and knowing my own person and not having it dictated by others. Again, I think that probably stems from middle school, where it was so dictated by all these other elements in my life, where now I'm like, wait, no, I really want to make sure this is how I like, how I want to behave or what I believe in. And it's the same in all my relationships, friendships and all. And the best friendships are the ones where, again, you can just like the best loves, they are like great loves in and of themselves friends, where you're like, oh, I can be every part of myself with you. But, like, you know, the messy, the toxic pieces that I'm working on, or, I mean, hopefully you're working on. Yeah. And then all the. All the goodness, too.

[Penn Badgley]

It just made me think of how we sexualize love so intensely, you know, and the truth is, it's so much so that I don't even. It's hard to talk about the water when you're efficient. And it's just the water we're in. I think, particularly as a man, it's like love is so highly sexualized, as you know. That's why boys have trouble expressing themselves to each other.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's why they're awful in middle school.

[Penn Badgley]

Right. That's why you had. I mean, you know, you said you extend grace to those boys. And I think.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I think.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, it's gracious that you say that. And just for a moment, like, taking you at your word and just exploring what that means, like, those boys were already told that you can't essentially be yourself and express love for another boy, basically. Which shouldn't be.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Which they only do in sports.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I'm like, thank God for sports. In some ways, I feel like sports is theater for the masses. It's what theater does for me, which gives me catharsis and feeling and freedom. I think sports gives that to everyone else who watch sports. Forgive me, I don't, not really. But you can see it, like, it allows people to express themselves in this huge way.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. I mean, I do think that it is. It is largely men, though, that are in need. Because you're saying people. And I think it is really. It is so specifically men, and it is so specifically men of certain age,

[Elizabeth Lail]

they're allowed to express love for one another because they have this.

[Penn Badgley]

To sing together. Yeah. They literally will sing and cry and hold each other. Men can't. I mean, really, that's like. That's the. The arena of sports is where you can do that and it's considered totally fine. But then, of course, singing and crying and holding each other, those. Those three things are very.

[Elizabeth Lail]

They're not.

[Penn Badgley]

They're really outside of an arena.

[Elizabeth Lail]

They're not in the living room. Yeah, yeah. It's sad. Well, hopefully that's changing.

[Penn Badgley]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Lail]

You work on it. I can't do it for the men. I can't do anything as of right now.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we'll be right back.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin. You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[Sophie Ansari]

And this is what's the Plan?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement.

[Sophie Ansari]

We wrestle with strategy together. We take your top voted questions in

[Elizabeth Lail]

real time, and we talk about the

[Sophie Ansari]

most impactful actions we can take right now.

[Penn Badgley]

Democracy is a participatory sport.

[Elizabeth Lail]

The fascists win. When we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan is about how we get into the game. What's the plan?

[Nava Kavlan]

Available Friday, January 23rd. Wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe, recruit,

[Elizabeth Lail]

discuss, organize, and work. That's the plan.

[Sophie Ansari]

I wonder, just to bring it back a little bit to you for a second, Elizabeth, what was your favorite scene to film with Pen? If you think back on that first

[Elizabeth Lail]

season, I want to say, you know, like, for the week, I was like, in the cage. Even though that seems like a weird thing to enjoy.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I get what you mean, because it's intense.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's intense and you can kind of just like live in that intensity. I would just stay in the cage. I would just lay down and people would work around me and it. Because it was kind of like, again, there's something about the cage that feels theater esque because it's dark around it, but then the lights are on on the cage. Yeah, I enjoy. I mean, I enjoyed every scene. We did. The great thing about that show, it was like I was doing like 10 different movies in one, because it would be like a romantic comedy at one point and then a thriller at another. I mean, it was just like every we. We experienced every. Or Beck certainly did like every kind of journey because she was unaware of the through line of the stalking bit. I also like the scene where I run into him. Beck runs into Joe with his new girlfriend. There's something so like that feeling. I don't know if anyone's ever felt that feeling where you're like, oh, my ex is married now. Or you bump into them and you're like. And of course, Beck and Jo, they still had more of a story to go.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, not that much more.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Not that much. A couple episodes. One or two, maybe.

[Penn Badgley]

Her end was nigh.

[Nava Kavlan]

I like that.

[Elizabeth Lail]

There's just something. I mean, it just. It tells you a lot about Beck because she really was, like, seeking kind of like validation from outward sources, which. Yes. What do you think?

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I was just curious, like, how much do you feel like you've lived now with Beck beyond what you had to portray? Cause now the show has gone on and, you know, I mean, you did return in. In season two for a brief moment and, you know, Beck will always be the sort of, I don't know, the iconic. The way we learn about Joe.

[Elizabeth Lail]

The girl.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, right.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's what I used to call her. She's the girl.

[Penn Badgley]

I call her the one who got away.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's very Joe of you. You've been hanging out in his mind for too long.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, how do you feel like you've lived? Is there a legacy of Beck that you feel like you live with? Do you feel like you have. Have to. Do you feel like you get a lot of people who, you know, come up to you and you sort of talk about it with them? You know what I mean? Like, is it. Is it something that you feel like you've lived with and thought about a lot more? In a lot of ways, do you have. Do you just move on?

[Elizabeth Lail]

In a lot of ways, I just move on.

[Penn Badgley]

It would make sense,

[Elizabeth Lail]

but it's not to say that, you know, when I get recognized, that's the show.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Well, that's.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I think that's why I think I, like. Out of all the characters I've played, I look the most like her on my day to day basis. I also live in New York. Okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. You're in the environment.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, I kind of lived her life without the stocking, thank God. And without the horrible death. But I. Yeah, I think. I think. Yeah. So it's really only when I get recognized where it's like, oh, you're that girl. Or most of the time it's like, you look so much like that girl from that show.

[Sophie Ansari]

Really?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. And I'll be like, thank you so much. I'm like, yeah, she's really pretty. No, she is. That's what I say in my head. I don't. I don't. Because I've. I've discovered. I don't know how you handle it, Penny, but everyone probably knows that you're definitely the person at this point.

[Penn Badgley]

It's a very.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, it's pretty. There's like, no, nobody who's kind of. I feel like everyone thinks I look like a friend of theirs.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, that used to happen a lot.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. Where you're like. But you. You just. People are so excited when they figure out it's you. That most of the time I'm just like, yeah, there's me. It's so. I don't. It's like, there's no good way to handle that.

[Penn Badgley]

No, there's not.

[Elizabeth Lail]

You guys want to hear an embarrassing story? Yes. Always. Speaking of being recognized, I was in Savannah on vacation, and the waiter comes up and he's like, gosh, you look so familiar. And I was like, oh, really? That's nice. He's like, yeah, yeah. You work at the bar down the street. I was like, no, I don't. And then I Said for the first time, I don't normally do this. I was like, you might know me from tv. There's no good way. Like, no humble way. There's no. There's no good way. But I thought, oh, I'll just take a. Like, odds are he recognizes me. And he was like, oh, really? What. What show? I just, like, named a couple of things.

[Penn Badgley]

Going through the list.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah, giving him my resume.

[Penn Badgley]

How about this one?

[Elizabeth Lail]

And then he comes back and he's like. He's like. He's like, oh, I googled you, but no, I haven't seen any of your shoes. You just. You just really look like that girl from the bar. And my husband, he was just like, that's the worst that's ever gone. And he was like. He was like, you cannot do that again. You can't be like, oh, you might know me from tv,

[Penn Badgley]

but I don't.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I'm so exciting for them when they think that they've met. Anyways, there's no good way to handle it. So now I don't say anything. I'm just like, oh, yeah, thank you.

[Nava Kavlan]

That's very charming.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's really embarrassing.

[Penn Badgley]

It's not a normal character.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's Beck's legacy. She's like, are you the girl that dies?

[Penn Badgley]

The girl in the box?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. Beck.

[Nava Kavlan]

I have a final you question for you, Elizabeth. I'd like to say I did that on purpose, but in your opinion, give us your hottest, hottest take. What should happen to Joe in the series at death? Who should do it?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Death by a thousand cubs. Yes. I'm thinking, like, a gang of women.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, my gosh. Like Handmaid's Tale.

[Elizabeth Lail]

And then I'm thinking that a woman should become the next joke.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's real empowerment.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I know that that's not politically correct, but that satisfies some, like, deep anger that's also not allowed to be, you know, out in the world because I'm a nice girl.

[Penn Badgley]

You just said something that's kind of like. That's really complex, where you're wanting to give a voice to this aspect of, like, the feminine that has been so oppressed historically and unable to. Yeah, like a voice that's been silenced.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

Which then creates, of course, another battle. Right. Well, a righteous feeling of anger, which, you know, anger is not just all bad. Anger is a response to a certain kind of stimulus. And it's like, anger can be a momentary tool or it can become a chronic, informative.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Hopefully.

[Penn Badgley]

Sure, yeah. At its best, it's informative, and then you move through It. And hopefully there's an environment where you can process it and heal. So. But obviously, it's not like women or just all of humanity has been able to do that. Right? So. Yeah. So in a way, you were just speaking to, like, this really complex thing at once that it would. It's what you want. Like, the feeling of what you want, but then knowing that that's technically, in a way, that's not Beck, like, experiencing retribution. It's almost like whoever's doing that, being brought down to his level, you know?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yes, absolutely. I agree with you, but I think you're dead on. I have some kind of, like, in my mind, like, the perfect movie is like, a group of women battling men and win. And winning. Or like, the beginning of time starting over, and let's see what happens when a woman's in charge. And it's not to say that I think that's the best thing for humanity. I certainly do not think it's the best thing for humanity.

[Penn Badgley]

But it's what you want.

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's what I. And so that. That's where I'm at in my.

[Penn Badgley]

In your glass box of emotion.

[Nava Kavlan]

I think Paco should come back in the final season, have an episode arc, and then I think Paco should kill him.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, wow.

[Nava Kavlan]

I think that's how the series should resolve.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Sweet.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, I don't want to burst your bubble, but I even suggested that to the writers years ago.

[Nava Kavlan]

Oh, really? I didn't know.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, well, because when I didn't know Paco was coming back, I was like, paco's gotta kill Joe.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wait, when you didn't know Paco's.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, sorry. No, I mean, I said it the wrong way. That's actually not a spoiler. When I thought Paco was coming back, back in seasons one and two, when I thought Paco might come back, I was just like, oh, Paco totally should kill Joe.

[Nava Kavlan]

You know, he's gotta make up for killing Beck, essentially. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. But does Paco know that he's. It would have to be, like, this whole journey of how he knows he's responsible for the death of someone in order to feel like a murderous need.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it might be.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Interesting.

[Nava Kavlan]

Might be interesting.

[Penn Badgley]

But I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not real.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Exactly. It's not real. So that's why maybe the women should kill. Because in the world, that's not gonna happen. You know what I mean? In the world, the women are being killed, and I think that's gonna continue on. Men are gonna continue like hopefully slowly but surely changing. But I think ultimately that's still the way in many places and still such an issue that I think we could stand to have a little severity on the others in our entertainment.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yeah, I think that's the.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I could be dead wrong though. So ask me in another 10 years. Sure.

[Nava Kavlan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's go back to you at 12. If you had a time machine, you could step into it and talk to yourself. What would you say?

[Elizabeth Lail]

It's really simple. I think I would just say, like, you are all good. Like every part of you is good and worthy. I, because of my upbringing, because of this kind of like good, bad, like this is evil, this is wrong, this is right. And if you don't behave in the right way, then suddenly my default is like, oh, you're a bad person, or this is bad, or this piece of you is bad. And I think that's really not serving me and hasn't served me throughout life. And I think that's what, that's what I'd say. I'd be like, you're allowed. You're allowed to have a favorite color. You're allowed to disagree. You're allowed to be loud. Like, you're allowed to step outside of the rules. And I think just kind of that permission, even if you eventually come back, I think every kind of human needs to feel like they can search in that way. Hopefully in a way that isn't detrimental. Right. But I think for me, I was so severe the opposite way. It's like I had to be like the most righteous version of the, of the human experience that there was a lot of like self flagellation going on. So I think that's what I would say.

[Penn Badgley]

Can you give us a little insight? What is the right favorite color?

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, it just means. And when I, when I say, when I say that and it goes to show, like, it's blue. The mindset I was in. And especially at that time, it's like I. I didn't trust that my opinion was worthwhile. Yeah, like I needed to be a quiet good girl in, in every area. And so it's a really simplified version way of saying it, but it's.

[Penn Badgley]

No, it's totally valid. And I'm of course making a joke. I mean, I really get that.

[Elizabeth Lail]

I really get. But it's green, actually.

[Penn Badgley]

It's green. Okay, listen, we're happy to have an episode too. It's definitely not green.

[Elizabeth Lail]

What we're talking about. The earth is mostly green. Is it? Or is it blue?

[Penn Badgley]

These, the oceans cover the green?

[Sophie Ansari]

No, I think it's a two part, I think, I mean they're both, you know, you're on the right track.

[Penn Badgley]

Sky, ocean.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Have you already answered this question, Pen?

[Penn Badgley]

The right color?

[Elizabeth Lail]

No. What would you tell your 12 year old? He has.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I think I've done it. Yeah, you've done it many times. Yeah. Well, no, and for me it's like it's at this point I don't feel like I would say anything. I would want to show something like demonstrate something more through action.

[Elizabeth Lail]

There's nothing you could say. Yeah, like you have to learn these lessons the hard way. Fortunately.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I would want to be a mentor over time. That's what I would rather do. It's like to be there for him all the time. I couldn't just say anything at once. I can't think of a single thing that would land really, truly. I mean, of course all the things work, but that's what I would just want to be there. I want to be my own guardian angel.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Well, in a way you can do that now.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. That's what therapy is.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah. You're like constantly having a conversation with your 12 year old self or your 8 year old, whatever self it is, saying like, oh, actually no, I've got you or we're going to get through this together.

[Penn Badgley]

And that, dear listener, is what we're going to do together in season two. You stick around and we'll be right back.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Xoxo. I think middle school is such like an important topic of conversation. So I really love that you guys are opening that up because bravely, I really do think everything ties back to it.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Such a shitty hard time in life

[Penn Badgley]

and it shouldn't be.

[Elizabeth Lail]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Today's listener submitted middle school story is called Owskirt Off. Then for the final time this season, take it away, Pen.

[Penn Badgley]

The year was 2014. The country, England. The occasion, lunch, the incident, tragedy. It all started like any other normal day in middle school. My friends and I were goofing off in the cafeteria. Just, just, you know, we're joking around, were having a great time and one of my friends thought it'd be funny to push me. You know, just a fun little, you know, friendly shove. And so I fell backwards, tripped on someone's backpack and landed on a random boy's lap in the cafeteria in front of everyone. And now we could, let's call this boy Bobby. So you think that's the end maybe, do you? You just, you know, oh, Poppy fell on top of Bobby in front of all her friends. And mates. What a good one. Well, let me tell you, dear reader, it doesn't end there. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, no. Not only did I fall on random prepubescent Bobby's lap, I slid down his legs and onto his feet. You better get comfortable, because this story is still not over. You see, that fateful day that my lovely friend Des decided to gently shove me and I just so happen to trip backwards over a backpack and land on prepubescent Bobby's lap in the cafeteria and slide down his legs onto his feet in front of all of our mates. This is also the day that I wore a skirt to school. A skirt that decided it would not be accompanying me for the entire journey in the cafeteria that day. That's right. My skirt rode up my bum onto my belly and got stuck on B's lap. Meaning that I slid down Bobby's legs in the school cafeteria in front of all of our mates in my underwear. Poor, sweet, unprepared little prepubescent Bobby was so shocked he couldn't even bring himself to form words. Nothing, no, not a sound escaped Bobby's lips. His entire friend group stopped dead in their tracks and stared at me. And what did I do? I squeaked out. I mean, I squeaked out an apology. I apologized to them. To who? To the room, to myself. I don't know. But I retrieved my skirt and I ran off. As one does. You know, the best part of this story is that Bobby and I were in several classes together. Bobby never looked at me in the eye again. VodCrushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavlan and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Ritchie from Stitcher. Our lead producer, editor and composer is David Ansari. Our secondary editor is Shiraf Entwistle. This podcast is a ninth mode production.

[Nava Kavlan]

Be sure to subscribe to podcast. You can find this on Stitcher, the SiriusXM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

[Sophie Ansari]

That is it.

[Nava Kavlan]

That's it.

[Sophie Ansari]

Season one of podcrushed is done. You can stay up to date with our season two plans on our social media odCrushed. And as always, you can follow us individually. Enbadgley Ava with three ns and scribbledbysophie and from the bottom of our hearts, truly, truly like the very bottom. We want to thank you for listening to the show, for sending us your middle school stories. Commenting following. It's been amazing to hear from all of you and we are so grateful for your support from Day one.

[Nava Kavlan]

Okay, that's all for now.

[Sophie Ansari]

Ttyl. Goodbye.

[Nava Kavlan]

Guys. People tweet us a lot and ask if Pen is running the podcast account. And I want to just reveal for once and for all, yes, it's Pen. It's all Pen is running.

[Elizabeth Lail]

All of a sudden, Pen is messaging

[Sophie Ansari]

you all the heart emojis.

[Elizabeth Lail]

That's Pen.

[Nava Kavlan]

He replies to every dm. It's always been Pen. That's the big secret.

[Penn Badgley]

I am Gossip Girl

[Elizabeth Lail]

Stitcher.

[Sophie Ansari]

You know when you're just going about your busy day and a voice asks you something like, why do people have crushes? Or do dogs know their dogs? The Brainzon Podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts, and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages. Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv, tlc, or tmz, brainson is for you.

[Penn Badgley]

Listening may induce uncle uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Fine brains on wherever you get your podcasts.