[Rerun] Kelly Clarkson

Summary

Podcrushed – [Rerun] Kelly Clarkson

** Hosts:** Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Kelly Clarkson
Release Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Podcrushed features an engaging and heartfelt conversation with superstar singer-songwriter and television host Kelly Clarkson. The hosts explore Kelly's formative middle school years, her faith and upbringing, the discovery of her musical talent, navigating fame and hardship, and insights into love, heartbreak, and independence. The discussion is candid, funny, and relatable, touching on both the universality and uniqueness of growing up, facing adversity, and finding one’s voice—literally and figuratively.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Musical Influences and Religious Upbringing

• Secular Music as Forbidden Fruit
  • Kelly wasn’t allowed to listen to or perform secular music until she left home ([00:00]–[00:11], [07:47]–[08:25]).
  • She snuck secular music like TLC's "Red Light Special" and Alanis Morissette’s Jagged Little Pill by hiding CDs in her closet ([00:18], [08:29]–[09:45]).

  “I had a whole stash in my closet that my mother never knew about.” – Kelly ([08:46])

• Adaptability from Upbringing
  • Grew up in various family configurations; this taught her to adapt and become independent ([07:02]).
  • Family was very religious and conservative; her mother was more reserved than Kelly or her sister ([07:02]–[07:47]).

2. Discovering Her Talent & Aspirations

• Standing Out in Church & School
  • Kelly grew up singing in church, where “everyone sings. And everyone sings well” ([11:30]).
  • Only realized her unique vocal abilities when others pointed it out in junior high ([11:30]–[12:59]).
  • Originally aspired to be a background singer because she enjoyed harmony and being part of something bigger ([12:59]–[13:36]).

  “I didn't ever want to be… the main [person]. My whole thing was I wanted to be a background singer because I love different genres of music…” – Kelly ([12:46])

• Turning Point: American Idol
  • After her LA apartment burned down, forcing her to live in her car briefly, she moved home; this hardship led to her auditioning for American Idol, a career-defining moment ([13:36]–[16:49]).

  “I had to adapt… I think it helps me in this career, and I think it helps me in life… we gotta pivot.” – Kelly ([15:56])

3. Navigating Adulthood, Hardship, and Fame

• Post-Idol Life & Resilience
  • Discusses moving, career pivots, and the need for resilience in the entertainment industry ([16:49]–[18:46]).
  • Divorce was "the most catastrophic thing," but it led to new opportunities, a move to New York, and new projects ([18:07]–[19:07]).

  "Something horrible that happened, but now came this beautiful thing." – Kelly ([18:59])

• Public Image vs. Private Reality
  • Despite industry expectations, Kelly revels in “not caring” about appearances in her downtime ([05:13]–[05:37]).
  • She credits her glam team and notes the drastic transformation between her at home and in public ([05:03]–[06:13]).

  “I cannot express to you how much I don’t care [about looking good in public].” – Kelly ([05:37])

4. Love, Heartbreak, and Songwriting

• First Crush and Late Love
  • Didn’t experience true love until age 30; earliest crush was a funny older coworker at 17 ([21:22]–[21:47]).
  • Recounts how crushes and heartbreak fueled her songwriting; believes in being direct about feelings ([24:50]).

  “I'm, like, incapable of shying away. If I want something, I just pretty much go for it.” – Kelly ([24:50])

• Love’s Complexity & Divorce
  • Explores how love changes, especially post-divorce, and the nuances of explaining love, relationships, and family dynamics to kids ([43:36]–[47:27]).

  “…when you do go through divorce, especially with young kids, the definition of love comes up quite a bit.” – Kelly ([43:36])

5. Independence, Interdependence, and Growth

• Learning to Ask for Help
  • In her 20s, struggled to ask for help, often tried appeasing difficult people ([32:40]–[34:41]).
  • Gained balance with age – now enjoys independence but values interdependence and delegation, especially in professional settings ([32:40]–[34:41]).

  “I'm very independent... but I'm also quick to look at my friend… and be like, dude, can you? I'm dying…” – Kelly ([32:40])

• Empathy and Inclusivity
  • Conversation expands to interdependent learning, empathy, and the importance of integrating kids with diverse abilities ([34:41]–[36:50]).

6. On Inspiration, Faith, and The Muse

• Spirituality’s Evolution
  • Values her Southern Baptist foundation for teaching compassion but now embraces a broader, more open spirituality due to her global experiences ([38:03]–[39:36]).
• Finding a Muse
  • Creativity is sparked by people, movies (“The Notebook,” “It’s Complicated”), heartbreak, and hope ([39:36]–[41:44]).

  “I hate love. I don't hate love. I love love. But I just… I hate what love can do.” – Kelly ([41:44])

7. Reflections on Parenting and Inner Child

• Talking to Her Younger Self
  • Kelly would reassure 12-year-old Kelly that problems always feel huge but will be okay; regrets are part of growth ([53:16]–[54:39]).
  • Parenting makes her witness anew many of her own childhood hurts as her children experience similar things ([55:41]).

  “You just need to make sure, first of all, you're good with no sleep. And secondly, that you're really, like, are you good with you? Because if you're not good with you, you're not gonna be able to raise another human.” – Kelly ([48:34])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sneaking Secular Music:

  “Oh, my God. I didn’t even know what I was singing either. Right. Like, red light special, tlc… That creep record. What the hell?” – Kelly ([00:18])

• On Adapting After Fire:

  “We moved in that day. Went to Chili’s… came back and they were like, you can’t get through here… hours within we moved in.” – Kelly ([14:34])

• On First True Love:

  “I actually didn’t fall in love, like love love, until I was 30.” – Kelly ([21:28])

• On Kindness and Leadership:

  “When you’re put in a leadership position and you don’t want to be a leader, learning how to delegate respectfully is very hard, especially when you’re younger than most people that you work with.” – Kelly ([33:10])

• On Love’s Power:

  “If you're experiencing that depth of devastation, then you're also experiencing that depth of, like, magic.” – Kelly ([25:22])

• On Parenting & Self-Reflection:

  “You are my little identical twin when it comes to some things… you have the experience to at least sit in it with them. Maybe… just listening.” – Kelly ([55:57])

• On Her Album, Chemistry:

  “There’s songs on there that are, like, favorite kind of high, that are, like, very intense. Like, you want to rip the person’s clothes off with your teeth… But I will say… At least listen to Lighthouse. That’s my favorite one.” – Kelly ([50:22])

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Kelly’s upbringing, faith, and secret music stash: [00:00]–[09:45], [07:47]–[08:25]
• Early musical aspirations and pivotal moment: [11:30]–[13:36]
• American Idol and adversity: [13:36]–[16:49]
• Public persona vs. private self-care: [05:13]–[06:13]
• Love, first crushes, and heartbreak: [21:22]–[25:22]
• Creative process, musing, faith: [38:03]–[41:44]
• Family, divorce, and communicating with children: [43:36]–[48:34]
• Album discussion – Chemistry & recommendations: [50:15]–[53:09]
• Advice to her 12-year-old self: [53:16]–[54:39]

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Tone and Style

Candid, wry, and self-aware—Kelly’s signature humor shines through even in moments of vulnerability. The conversation moves fluidly between laughter, nostalgia, and earnestness, making it relatable and magnetic for listeners of all ages.

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In Summary

This episode with Kelly Clarkson is a heartfelt journey through music, faith, struggle, resilience, independence, and the deep lessons learned through love and loss. Listeners are treated to anecdotes from Kelly’s past, insights into her growth as an artist and a person, and honest reflections on parenting and what it means to be human. Through Kelly’s relatability and wit, the episode offers comfort and wisdom: “Things may seem so huge in the moment, but I promise you, it’s gonna be fine.”

Transcript

[Kelly Clarkson]

I didn't. I was not allowed, ironically enough, to listen to secular music or perform it for a minute until.

[Penn]

Until how old?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I think that was just, you know, until I moved out.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Nava]

Oh, wow.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And then I was like, turns out I'm gonna sing secular music.

[Nava]

Kelly, did you sneak it? Like, did you ever listen to secular music? Yeah. Yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, my God. I didn't even know what I was singing either. Right. Like, red light special, tlc. That creep record. What the hell?

[Penn]

Welcome to podcrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava]

And I'm Nava. And I think we, your middle school

[Sophie]

bestie, sing screaming Kelly Clarkson songs into our hair brushes all night long.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Since you've been gone. Yeah. Yeah.

[Nava]

What is your favorite Kelly Clarkson song?

[Sophie]

I have to go old school. I have to say, since you've been gone, because it just reminds me of middle school.

[Nava]

How about you, Pen?

[Penn]

Oh, love so soft.

[Nava]

Love so soft. Why is that your favorite?

[Penn]

Because it's got the deepest groove, maybe. I know it's a. It's.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

I don't know. It's always stood out to me. I just like it.

[Nava]

My favorite song is off her new album that hopefully you're all streaming, and it's called Magic. And we got. We got a preview of the album, and I streamed it, like, 30 times, and every time I wanted to stream it, I had to log back into this thing. So it, like, took effort for me to listen to it that many times, but absolutely.

[Penn]

Wow. You really. You persevered, Navs.

[Nava]

Yeah. I'm going to listen to the song again.

[Penn]

All for Kelly. Does she know.

[Nava]

Does she know what we've done for her?

[Kelly Clarkson]

We're making her career the way you feel. It's not you. It's not so.

[Penn]

So you already know who it is. We got Kelly Clarkson today, guys. Singer, songwriter, television personality. Her career highlight reel is just. Is staggering. She's the first ever winner of American Idol, which, by the way, I forgot. I had kind of filed it away as, like, oh, it's one of the early seasons, but she is the number one American Idol. She's got 25 million albums sold, three Grammys, three VMAs. She's hailed as one of the greatest pop vocalists of all time. She has her show, the Kelly Clarkson show, and. And she's. In four years. She's got five daytime Emmy awards. Her kindness and generosity of spirit, I think, is what people know her for. It's what we found today.

[Nava]

And I just want to say, as a big Fan of the Voice. That Kelly Clarkson, a judge on the Voice, was really the only judge who ever gave Blake Shelton a run for his money. I think statistically, she won more times than he did.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Wow.

[Penn]

That can't be true. He's the king. I don't know what you're talking about. He's not my king, but he is the king, right?

[Nava]

True.

[Penn]

We don't have Blake Shelton today. We have Kelly Clarkson.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Just a reminder.

[Penn]

You stick around. We'll be right back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi, it's Julia. Louis Dreyfus here, and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music. Cindy may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years, she has brought playfulness and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now, only on Amazon Music included with Prime.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You have exceptional hair. Like the beard game. The hair.

[Penn]

I'm, like, winning at those games.

[Kelly Clarkson]

That's. Yes. I was like, that's, like, exceptional.

[Penn]

Really?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Okay.

[Nava]

It's.

[Penn]

You know, my wife really does not like it at this point.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, really?

[Penn]

Maybe.

[Nava]

Maybe.

[Penn]

Maybe that's.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Wait, the beard or the longer hair? Which one? Cause, like, some women just don't like beard.

[Nava]

Just depend in general.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And I'm opposite. I. I cannot. Like, I even went with my ex. I was like, if you shave, I don't know that I will actually kiss you. Or, like, make, like. Cause it. He looked so boyish when he. And it felt weird for me, so I was like. But some of my friends don't like it because the chafing, like, when you're kissing a guy with, like, a beard or whatever, like, it's always like. Some people don't like it.

[Penn]

It goes from being of complete lack of effort.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Like, you just let it grow to then to not look fully disheveled. I gotta. I have to do enough things like the oil and the trimming that it's. It is more work than.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I would prefer grooming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am very lazy, Pen. Like, I don't do anything when I'm not. Like, this is a. Like, people did this.

[Penn]

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. Like, I am very. I don't wear makeup. I don't.

[Penn]

That's why people. I feel like in our industry, when you're not working, you're just like, you don't.

[Kelly Clarkson]

It's too much all the time. So it's like when you're not. Just. My face wants to breathe, you know? Yeah, that's fair.

[Sophie]

But does it change how you feel going out? I actually noticed I had to go buy something at a mall yesterday, and I looked so bad.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I just had done nothing.

[Sophie]

And I heard someone say Sophie, but they were talking to somebody else. But I was like, oh, my God,

[Kelly Clarkson]

I hope no one I know is here right now.

[Sophie]

I'm thinking, if you're famous, does that change how you feel about going out in public?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Not for me. I cannot express to you how much I don't care. That's amazing. I feel like I do care. I just care about things that I think are important. And I don't know. I feel like. Like he was saying, like, what's your job all the time to be, like, on and done, and, you know, I get it. Whatever. It's. I don't mind playing dress up. Like, my team is incredible. Honestly, when they get through, I feel like we should pay them more because it's like, this is Harry Potter level skill. Like, this is not what I look like in. It's real different.

[Penn]

Do you know the framing of this show? Like, the middle school vibe?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yes. Yes.

[Penn]

Okay, cool.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Such hard years.

[Penn]

Yes. Well, they are, in some way for everybody.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Like, the truth is, being young is actually. There's something about it that it's intense. So when you.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I would never do it again.

[Penn]

Well, guess what.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, you can't.

[Nava]

But waka.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You know, when people are like, oh, I totally go back to college or I totally go back to high school, I'm like, I would never do any of that. Like, no, no.

[Penn]

We did get an advanced copy of your record. You have a song where you say, I'm actually gonna read it because I want to make sure I get it right.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Well, you basically say, love is a bitch, and then you apologize to your mom.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. And I'm 41. Right.

[Penn]

And so clear. So that gives us at least a glimpse of. Very big glimpse of your household growing up.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yes.

[Penn]

I mean, you know, so just paint a picture of us, of what was it like for you living with your mom?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, well, it was different. So I didn't just, like, there are moments. I mean, I feel like my upbringing involved a lot of different environments, which is probably why I'm highly adaptable. But I. I mean, you know, for moments, we were alone, and it was just us. Then there were. My brother and sister lived with us when we were really little, like that. So I remember parts of that. And Then she got remarried, so there's different parts there. So all of that, though, she is very different from me. Like, my mother looks at my sister and I like, we're aliens. Like, where she's very, like, you know, just more conservative and, like, reserved. Like, she'll give your opinion. Trust. But I just mean, once she gets to know you, she's kind of shy. And my sister and I are, like, complete opposites of that. Like, we're not shy at all.

[Penn]

So is your sister older or younger?

[Kelly Clarkson]

She's older, but you'd probably think I'm the older one. Everybody always does. She's seven and a half years older. It's such a bitch. I'm like, I'm the younger one, but she's awesome. We actually grew up separately, and my brother. We all grew up very separately, so it was just a very different upbringing. But a lot of it was very religious, and so definitely, you did not curse. I was not allowed, ironically enough, to listen to secular music or perform it for a minute.

[Penn]

Until how old?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I think that was just until I moved out.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Nava]

Oh, wow.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And then I was like, turns out I'm gonna sing secular music.

[Nava]

Kelly, did you sneak it? Did you ever listen to secular music?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, y. Oh, my God. I didn't even know what I was singing either, right? Like, Red Light Special, tlc. That creep record. Love that. What the hell? Why am I singing that at, like, in junior high? I was like, that is so inappropriate. My mother had no idea.

[Penn]

How did you sneak it?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I had a whole stash in my closet that my mother never knew about.

[Sophie]

Wow.

[Penn]

She never went in your closet?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Not really.

[Penn]

So she trusted you, then?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I don't know if it was so much trust, Pen. I think it was just.

[Penn]

Well, it would have been unfound.

[Kelly Clarkson]

She was like, if you close your door, like, to your room, like, you know, she was like, just close your door. Like, I wasn't, like, messy, but I wasn't. Maybe how she wanted me to. I like to say creative. I was creative. But, yeah, no, she. She kind of let me be. I was pretty independent, very young, so that's cool. Yeah. But, no, I snuck it. Yeah. But I was told once I wasn't allowed to sing. Like, it was. I'd gone into, like, a competition. I didn't really even realize how. Like, I didn't listen to a lot of secular in front of her. I did every now. It depended on the year, y'. All. It depended on who was married and who. It just depended on a lot of things. But it Was very different all the time. So I just kept my thing the same in my closet. But she found out I was listening to Jagged Little Pill and was not excited about that. And I still listened to it.

[Penn]

Well, naturally, yeah. How old were you then, do you think was that like.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I was in junior high, so I don't know. I was probably like seventh, eighth grade when that came out.

[Penn]

What songs do you think spoke most to you then?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Well, that's the thing too. I kind of really didn't know what I was listening to fully. I don't think I grasp it. Like I can grasp it as a woman at this point, but you know, it's still that. That hidden track that she had at the very end, that was acapella. Oh, I love that song.

[Nava]

I don't know.

[Penn]

That was not a record that I was into, so I don't know what you're talking about.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh my God. It's literally one of the best selling records of all time.

[Penn]

I know, I know.

[Nava]

It's an amazing record.

[Penn]

I know the record though. Just don't know the other.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Listen to. I mean, cuz I still listen to Nirvana. I listen to everything. Yeah, and I also listen to Christian stuff too. Like I. I listen to a bunch of stuff, but like. Wait, you didn't listen to. I don't know anyone that was.

[Penn]

Not that.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You're the first human, really. You were the first human I've ever met that has not been like, oh my God, you know that record?

[Nava]

Yeah, yeah.

[Penn]

It just wasn't. I mean, look, there's a lot of. We all have gaps somewhere. Like that's just one of mine. I didn't. I'm trying to think.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You're a lot younger than me though.

[Nava]

They're not a lot younger than you.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, I thought you were 30. Okay. You're 36. I'm 41.

[Penn]

So yeah, so we're basically.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You missed it though. You were in elementary, you were like the baby talking about, but you're young.

[Nava]

You actually missed it.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, I was like, y' all missed it, that's why.

[Nava]

No, I was into it. I did not miss it. It was so good.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You're the cool one. Okay, I got you now.

[Nava]

Kelly.

[Sophie]

Kelly, I want to hear a little bit more about you in middle school. And I want you to tell us, when did you know you were into music in like a special way or when did you realize that that was a talent of yours?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Well, that's actually pretty interesting because I grew up in church and everyone sings and everyone sings. Well, I Don't know if that's normal for everybody else's upbringing, but I feel

[Penn]

like it's just Christians.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Just Christians. We were just. Yeah, the rest. Y' all were shite. No, I just meant, like, even in my town, like, even in our, like, choral groups, like, I. Everybody's always like, oh, you've, like, such a great voice. I'm like, yeah. I grew up with, like, a lot of great singers. I feel like. Like, I don't. I don't. I didn't feel like I really stood out until there was, like, kind of a moment in junior high, and I think I was eighth. Eighth grade maybe, when I just kind of noticed I could hit things that maybe other people couldn't hit and, like, with more of a belt and. Because we're all imitators, right? At first, like, of course, of whatever art you're into, I listened to a lot of, like, big female singers, like, and even male. Like, Steven Tyler was one of my favorites. So I just. I think I figured that out, and other people kind of. It wasn't even. I figured it out. Other people kind of said, wow, you're, like, really good at that. And I was like, what? Okay. Like, I didn't. It's like, other people almost told me. And then you're like, all right. Like, and then I found out in, like, high school, I was like, wait, you can make money? Like, really doing that? Like, even. Cause I didn't ever want to be, like, who I am now. Like, I didn't ever want to be, like, the main. My whole thing was I wanted to be a background singer because I love different genres of music, because, honestly, mama didn't aim that high. So I just. You know what I'm saying? Like, this rarely happens. Like, it's like, you know, it's rarely.

[Penn]

Statistically, it basically doesn't exactly.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Aligning of the planets. Like, it's like, you know, I'm very lucky, and it's a lot of hard work, but also a lot of luck, so. And in all fairness, I actually did want to be a background. Like, I love the background parts. I love harmony. I grew up singing harmony. I love that they're more intricate, more challenging parts. I love that they're more interesting, and I wanted to sing with a bunch of different artists, so that was kind of my. My big goal, you know, and then that went to shite. So turns out I went the lead route after American Idol, and was that

[Penn]

really the turning point where you shifted from, like, you know, whatever previous vision

[Kelly Clarkson]

to, yeah, my place had burned. So I was working as a background singer in LA right after high school. Little bit after, I moved out to LA and I worked as a background singer. I did a bunch of things, got paid. I thought that was incredible. Like, learning that, oh, my God, you can get paid for doing this and, like, make a living out of this. That's incredible. I didn't want a boring cubicle job. Sorry, cubicle job, people. That's so great for you. It's just not for all of us who are adhd. And so, I don't know. Whenever I moved out there, my place burned down and I lived in my car for a few days. And then I finally had enough money to go back home to, like, save up money to come back out here. Because I don't know if y' all have heard, but, like, living in LA is very expensive.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Anyway, so. And I don't know, Kelly, can I

[Nava]

just interrupt you quickly to ask, what was it like when your building burned down? I mean, that's super shitty.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Shitty. Yeah. Like, it was. We moved in that day.

[Penn]

That is, we moved in and it burned. Was it an apartment, by the way,

[Kelly Clarkson]

the Croft Apartments on Croft Avenue off of Melrose? It was. I don't even know if they're still there, if it's different now. Cause if it didn't burn, it had smoke and water damage. So, like, everything. And I literally left. We moved our stuff in. Cause before that, I had just been living on, like, a mattress, basically with this other chick that I barely knew that I moved there with and had, you know, one room and a bathroom, no kitchen. It was like college, like a dorm situation almost in this person's house. So we just saved up money to move into this apartment. We moved stuff in. Our insurance didn't kick in until it was, like, the next day or two, because, like, what are the chances, right? Yeah. No, truly. And then went to Chili's to get some. To go some chips and salsa and came back and they were like, you can't get through here. And we were like, oh, we just need to get to our apartment. And they were like, you can't. Literally hours within we moved in. Yeah.

[Nava]

That's crazy.

[Kelly Clarkson]

It was pretty crazy. Yeah. There is footage of me on the side of the street looking, like, not great. And, like, you know, I've been moving all day, like, with a handkerchief on my head. Like, it was. Yeah. Cause they were like, oh, we heard you just moved in. Yep.

[Sophie]

So when I heard that story, it made me wonder, what is your relationship to fate? Like, the fact that that happened and then you.

[Nava]

You.

[Sophie]

As I understand it, you auditioned for American Idol.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Partly because I moved home, like, literally. I. Yeah. Lived in my car for a few days. Cause I had. I was finishing out a job, and I had a crunch. Gym membership. And that's where I showered. And then I just was like, this is going to be too difficult. The roommate that I'd moved out there with, we were very, very different individuals. So that was already kind of a little hard. And, yeah, I just. I was like, all right, I'll just move. I pivot very easily, I think, like, coming back to that childhood stuff. Like, I've had to adapt, like, a lot of my life, which I'm actually very grateful for. I'm not complaining. I just mean, I think it helps me in this career, and I think it helps me in life. Like, just be like, all right, we gotta pivot. So. But, yeah, no, I wasn't even. I didn't, like, cry or anything. I just. I think it was more hysterical. I was like, what are the chances of this happening to someone?

[Penn]

You just went to Chili's.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I just.

[Penn]

That doesn't even take that long to

[Kelly Clarkson]

not even go and eat and sit down. It was to go.

[Penn]

It was back when to go was new.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yes.

[Nava]

Wow. Mine saved your life, though.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean. I mean, maybe everybody made it out. I don't think anybody. And they never really said. Like, we kept trying to figure out. Cause we were new, obviously, we'd been there for hours. So I don't even ever remember figuring out how it started or no one wanted to take credit for that number. So. Yeah, so it was a really weird night. And I'm not gonna out this organization, but one of the biggest aid organizations ever turned us away. Like, we had nowhere to go. And, like, we walked in. Cause they said, oh, if you go to this church. It was like a. Like a. You know, like a gym or something attached to a church or whatever. One of their fellowship halls or something. And they were like, oh, we have too many in here. And it was like, is that a. Can you do that? Or is that, like, what your whole point is? So, yeah. And my roommate ran off with these randos and were like, I'm gonna go stay with them. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna become a Dateline special, so I'm gonna hang out in my car. I was like, I'm just gonna. And I don't even remember seeing her after that.

[Sophie]

Other moments in your life when something, like, seemingly kind of Catastrophic happens and then it, it leads to something greater.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I mean, honestly, I'd say the most catastrophic thing was probably my divorce. So. Yeah, that, that was pretty horrible. And just, you know, you don't see it coming. Cause you, you see struggle, obviously, for years, but, like, you try or whatever, but, you know, I think when you're in that, you cannot see anything else in front of you. Like, it's just, it really is all consuming grief in general. So I think that turned into like, all of a sudden now I live, like, I literally live in New York now, and I'm done in la and I've never wanted to live in la, so it was very beautiful that I got the opportunity to move the show here and.

[Penn]

Oh, you're showing up now.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I have this. Yeah, we're starting fifth season in the fall here at 30 Rock, so congrats. So my whole life, so something horrible that happened, but now came this beautiful thing. Like, I'd been writing something for Broadway, I'd been a musical theater kid. Like, I'd been doing stuff that like, kind of was leading up to this. And I didn't know, you know, and so it ended up, it's ended up being this really beautiful thing. So.

[Penn]

Yeah, that's really cool.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. Which you don't see in the moment. And people tell you, oh, it's gonna happen. You're like, shut up.

[Nava]

Yeah, stick around, we'll be right.

[Shan]

A better help ad International Women's Day is this march, and it's a chance to celebrate women in all their brilliance. The leaders, the caregivers, the problem solvers, the hype friends, the quiet forces, the how do you do it? All types answer with a lot of strength and a little bit of rest. Therapy can be one way to support the incredible work you already do. A space just for you to reflect, reset and reconnect with what fuels you. Your goals, your boundaries, your joy. BetterHelp makes starting therapy simple by matching you with a qualified therapist based on your needs and preferences. No pressure, no guesswork. And if your first match isn't quite right, you can switch anytime. Here's to celebrating women and giving yourself support along the way. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off. Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate and relationship classes.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Lets fix that.

[Shan]

I'm Shan, an ASEX certified sex educator with a master's in psych and on my podcast Lovers by Shan, we make learning about love as mind blowing as making it. Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story. Then we uncover the lesson for all of us, watch Lovers by Shan from Lemonada Media on YouTube or listen wherever you like your podcast.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonada Media is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Nava]

We have a couple questions we ask everyone since we're sort of on the topic. Do you remember your first love and your first heartbreak?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I actually didn't fall in love, like love love until I was 30. So like. Yeah, I didn't even know that was

[Penn]

real by the way. That's fair. I think that's probably very common and I hear you.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, I don't know that it's common where I'm from. I think they pretty much think you're dead if you're single at 30, like where I'm from.

[Penn]

But that's not necessarily.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, totally. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, I didn't really know love until my ex, but my first like big crush. His name was Matthew Michael Penwarden and he was, he worked at the movie theater. My first job was a movie theater and I was like 17 and he was older and he was funny. I really like funny. So he was cute too. I just mean like humor is my thing. So yeah, I love, I thought he was so adorable. Like I didn't love him like real love him, but I just mean like, you know, he was my first big like huge crush. But I'm late, I'm like, I feel like, like even my daughter, like, she's, she could be boy crazy. Like I, I was never really boy crazy. Like I was just like, ah, boy crazy. Like around 17.

[Nava]

Like what happened with that guy?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Well, he was a lot older, so that's inappropriate. So. And he had a girlfriend and anyway, some details we left out in the. Yeah, but, but I will say he ended up, it was like, I think like a year later or something. He, he was. Oh actually something horrible. I just remember what happened to him. Horrible happened with his ex at that time and, and then we ended up like, we kind of talked for a minute but then it just wasn't. That's the thing. I think he's great, but it just. When you actually start talking to someone that you've kind of put up on a pedestal, then you're kind of like, I think I built you up differently than I thought you actually were. You know, I think you do that a lot in your youth as well, or during your marriage sometimes. But I just. Yeah, that was. I think, you know, we had a little, like, date thing, but, like, it wasn't like a huge. We never really dated kind of thing, but, like, Yeah, I don't. I just kind of recognized. I was like. I think I thought you were someone you weren't. Like, you know, it was. I built you up to be somebody that was different, that I thought was more for me.

[Nava]

But.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, but he was really funny, and it was a fun crush. Like, what a beautiful. I love that. I hate whenever people are like, oh, you're too young to actually know it. I'm like, shut up. Let them have their moment. It's such a beautiful, free, you know, jaded. You know what I'm saying? Like, I will say, though, that is the first time I've ever been crushed though, too. Cause I'm the one who. I'm. I'm not old school. I'm not, like, old fashioned. I told him I liked him and, like, once he was available, I'm not that girl. But, like, once he was available, I told him I had a crush and he was like, oh, that's so cute. And I was like, oh, shit, that's

[Sophie]

not what you want to hear.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm so cute. So I'm gonna go. So. That was devastating. That was. Yeah, that sucked. But character growth. It'll bring out the funny. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Did you feel like after experiencing a rejection like that, after you were bold enough to tell him how you felt?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Did you continue to do that in your life or what? Did it kind of. Did you shy away from doing that again?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I'm, like, incapable of shying away. Like, I just. If I want something, I just pretty much go for it. Even with my ex, like, I made the first move. Like, if I. If I want something, I'll pretty much just tell you. You get crushed sometimes? Cause actually my ex crushed me at first whenever we had that conversation. But it was a little awkward. Just his father was my manager. It was just really complicated, so. But yeah, no. I don't know. I never. I'm not like, that person that gets beaten down and doesn't try again. I will keep trying even when I know there's no way to win. Like, I'm that person innately. I'm, like, forever an optimistic so. Or delusional, whichever way you want to go. But, yeah. No, it does crush you, though. There's those. I mean, you. That's where a lot of my songwriting and stuff comes from, too. Is that, like, devastation? You're like, ooh. But I also think what a wonderful thing to experience. Like, if you're experiencing that depth of devastation, then you're also experiencing that depth of, like, magic. I think so, yeah.

[Penn]

Of course. I mean, that's why we use the period of life, because it's like the first time that suddenly you're open to the kind of feelings and thoughts and ideas you're gonna be having for the rest of your life. Before that, you actually just even neurobiologically, all that stuff you just weren't able to have, and then suddenly it's open. And so who you are in those early stages is a really interesting. It's just a really interesting sweet spot that never happens again.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

I'm just kind of curious, like, where's at 12 and 13 years old? Like, how did. How did you feel about yourself as an artist and a performer? Was that already there? You know, I think.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. I think maybe around the age of 13 is whenever I really started to think. I just. I guess it's a really cool thing when you're a kid and, I don't know, you find something you feel special at that you feel like you stand out in a way, especially when it's so hard. Cause sometimes you want to be a wallflower in junior high or high school, you don't want to stand out. But it started to give me a level of confidence and everything. So even around, like, people will be like, oh, my gosh, are you going to sing, you know, the talent show? Are you gonna sing at church this Sunday? Are you gonna. Like, just the curiosity from people, is it? You know, and the support, I think, was very helpful, you know? And then I ended up. I think the hard thing for me is growing up, religiously speaking, and everyone telling you in the beginning, like. I mean, it was like, don't play the devil's music. Aggression. Yeah. Like, with the. Like, while you're singing for the Lord, aren't you? And I'm like, well, yeah. I mean, I feel like God made love, and God made all these other things that I like to sing about, you know? I love that. Kelly, thank you. Justifying any song I wanted to sing, but I don't know, I feel like that's when I started. I almost like that it Happened like that, though, because it really does force you when people push something on you. It forces you to really look at if you like that or what you do. Like, you know, when you're given guidelines or not guidelines, but restrictions almost, you know, and you have to play between the lines. You know, it's. Well, what's outside the lines, you know what I'm saying? Like, it makes you curious. And so then you just start to, I think, develop as an artist. Like, whether it's people you're listening to or friends you're meeting that are kind of changing the course of who you are as a person too. Like, character wise, personality wise. But I don't really think, if I'm being truly honest, I don't think until I really got out on the road and started touring and really, like, meeting all these different artists on the road, all these different musicians pouring into me what they knew me pouring what I. I, you know, had. And like, really that network and that exchange of just musical backgrounds is, like, incredibly important. You know, I remember, like, what my one boyfriend I had, like, I'll forever be grateful. First of all, he's a good dude, but secondly, he introduced me to Patty Griffin, and I was like, you will forever be held in high esteem for me, like, it's. It, like, really changed me as a songwriter. So. I don't know. I think I honestly didn't really figure that out. Cause I think that's what sucks now is, like, there's no really a and ring anymore, and there's no really time you spend with it. Like, you two didn't hit right off the bat. You know what I'm saying? Princeton hit right off the bat. It was like they built that, and then they had that time to tour. They had that time to marinate who they were, right? And so, I don't know. I think that that's kind of a lost art form. And I didn't really figure out who I really wanted to be till then. I think my 20s.

[Nava]

Your first sort of international hit was Miss Independent, I think. And my impression of you even talking to you now, but before talking to you, but sort of someone who's followed your career is that you seem very independent. And I kind of want to say something, but let me know if we should edit it out, because I might be sensitive, but I remember you fighting back against.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I love that preface.

[Nava]

Sort of like fighting back against the contract that you had with Idol and being kind of outspoken about it. And to my knowledge, like, one of the only contestants who was you're making a face like that doesn't register. Am I?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, no, no, no. I'm just saying sometimes people flip things. I had a not so great relationship with RCA. I had a great relationship with 19 Records, who is actually the creator. Simon Fuller's the creator of Idol. Was a management company, record company, all that. No, actually, I have the craziest story about him. I was unhappy. I had worked. I think it was like three years with 19 and it just. I never actually worked with Simon Fuller. Like, I worked with everybody that he like, hired out of America. You know, I don't even know if he really knew everybody I was working with. You know, it was that kind of. And he is so kind and cool. And finally I called him. I was like at an MTV iced out some New Year's Eve or something. And I called him and I was. And I was crying. Cause I felt bad. Cause I really do genuinely love Simon Fuller. He's very kind and cool and like, is the main reason why I'm sitting here right now. So other than, like, obviously I work hard, but like, he heard me and immediately said, like, wasn't combative. Cause I said, I love you, but like, I can't. Like, I don't work with you. And this. I'm actually miserable with the people that you've surrounded me with. Like, this is like, this is a. Like, I might quit. Like, this is not fun. It's not worth it. You know, I have a really big problem with people that lie. And so I'm just like, especially little ones. I'm like, what the hell? Why are you lying about something little like that? You know what I'm saying? It's a little odd and it's a red flag. So I had that conversation with him and he immediately said, I totally understand. I will let you out. I will honestly even help you find new management and I will help you. So he actually, the creator of Idol, was very helpful in that I had a hard time with the other half of the record label part, which was rca. That was not fun.

[Nava]

And I sort of remember you being outspoken about it somewhat. And it registered for me as a human, like, oh, this girl is standing out. And I feel like most people don't. So I've had this impression of you, maybe the fusion of that. And Ms. Independent is like, Kelly Clarkson is so independent. And I relate as an independent person. But I lately have been feeling like I think I'm too independent. Like, I think I'm missing out on, like, there are blessings and joys that come from relying on other people and just, like, asking for help. Like, I recently had really, really bad stomach virus and just, like, couldn't bring myself to ask anyone to walk my dogs. And I was, like, practically passing out on the sideline.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You're like, I can do it all. Yeah.

[Nava]

I was just like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. They're my dogs. Like, I'm gonna figure this out. And so I just wanted to know, what is your relationship to independence and are you really independent? Do you feel like you ever miss out on what comes from being a little more dependent on other people?

[Kelly Clarkson]

I feel like age helps with that. So I. In my 20s, horrible at asking for help. Horrible about being honest with people, like, around me that were very unhealthy people, like, around me. So I would always walk on eggshells. I would always. It's my tendency, as a. As a. Whatever childhood trauma to, like, try and make it okay. So, like, and I'll. And I will accept things that you should never accept as okay, you know? So I think my 20s were really hard in figuring that out. But now, I mean, I think it's one of those things where I feel like I'm very independent. Yes. Like, I. I love doing things, but I literally, like, right before here, I was at my ranch in Montana. Like. Like, we're planting trees, we're planting gardens. I'm with them. We're making trails. I'm moving giant trees from the trail. I'm sawing them. Like, you know, I love doing all that. So I like being independent. I like the empowerment of it. But I'm also quick to look at my friend with me on the trail and be like, dude, can you. I'm dying. Like, I'm like. So I'm also, like, able, I think. And I guess the smarter way is to. Able to. When you're put in a leadership position and you don't want to be a leader, being able, like, learning how to delegate respectfully is a very hard thing, especially when you're young and you're younger than most people that you work with. That was a very hard learning curve for me. So that actually helped me, though, be able to be dependent upon people and rely on people. But I still haven't really found that in relationships. But professionally, no, I walk a. I think, a beautiful line of, like, being enough independent, you know, having enough independence, rather, and then also allowing people to, one, do what they do and shine as well and be able to help you, because I love helping people. So why would you Want to take that from someone, you know, that opportunity to feel good, like, to help you, too.

[Sophie]

I love that you bring up that point. Nava. I was a special education teacher and a general education teacher. I had both certifications. And when I was training in my classes for special education, a big part of the discourse is like, independence, independence, independence. How do we help all children, no matter what their needs are, as a learner, to be independent? And then I worked at a school with every classroom was integrated between special education and general education. You had two teachers, and they started to shift. They realized that, okay, independence is important, but what can we also learn about interdependence? Helping students to actually think outside themselves

[Kelly Clarkson]

and also be helpers and also. Yeah, exactly.

[Sophie]

And that helps not only the students who have special needs, but teaches empathy for others.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Which I think is a really beautiful distinction.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I love it's the worst idea to separate any kids. I get that. It takes a lot of effort. We were just talking about this beforehand, too. Like, even my kids are both dyslexic. So it's a really hard thing to ask a teacher, especially in public school system, which I'm from, my mother was from, when she taught. It's a hard thing. You have 26 to 30 kids in a class. That's too many, and that's way too many, first of all. And it's hard enough having that many if they're all on the same learning curve and they're all not. There might be two each on the same learning path, but I do think it's so important to integrate because you're shielding. It's just the same reason, too. When people come on my talk show, this is the same kind of metaphor, and they're like, I really want my kids. You know, inclusivity is so important. I'm like, 100%. And I'm not saying that for any other reason. Like, that's important for, like, they're like, it's important for people to see what they can achieve. I'm like, it's also important for my kids to see other things, other cultures, other people. That's important for everyone. Everyone wins in that environment, you know? So. I don't know. I think you're right. Like, every kid learns in that environment, and it teaches empathy, which is what I think we're missing as a society. Society as a whole.

[Sophie]

A lot of times it moves us from, like, the goal being, like, individualism, basically, to, like, community and helping those around you.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. Looking outside yourself. That's super important.

[Sophie]

And we'll be right back. Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[Sophie]

And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together, we take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take. Right now.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan is about how we get into the game.

[Sophie]

What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Wherever you get your podcast, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize, and win. That's the plan.

[Nava]

What is your relationship to the concept of a muse? Where do you draw inspiration from? Do you feel like it comes from a force outside of you? Do you still kind of believe in a higher power? Like, what's all that for you?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, I definitely believe in something bigger than all of us. I grew up Southern Baptist, so I will say there was a lot that I didn't like about how I grew up or, like, things I saw. But I also had an amazing experience as well with certain people and that were, you know, stepped in as, like, father figures or, you know, just supported me, like, as a kid that didn't have that, you know, so. And I got that via church, and I got that, I don't know, as well, like, keeping me out of trouble. I feel like I'm from, like a. When you're from a small Southern town, there's not much to do except things you probably shouldn't, so. Or any small town, maybe, but especially in the south, we get real bored. So anyway, so I don't know, I feel like it kept me grounded. It taught me to have a servant's heart. I love that there's so much I can pull from my childhood and religion that I am a part of, was a part of. But also I think it has advanced into something that's, like, even more open in the sense of, like, getting to travel all across the world and seeing these different cultures and seeing how they worship and seeing what they worship and seeing what they hold in, you know, high regard and how it helps them. And, you know, I just. Why would you not be open to, like, even hearing what someone has to say, you know, speaking about spirituality and stuff like that. So I'm always open and I. The first part of your question, though, is, oh, muse. Yeah.

[Nava]

Do you believe me?

[Kelly Clarkson]

So I was like. I loved the first part. I was trying to think of what you said. I love a muse. I really do. I think every artist does, so. Even if it's not like. Even in the song. I hate Love on this new record, like, My Muse were two movies. I love the Notebook, but I also love It's Complicated. Cause that's real. I know the Notebook. Love is real and out there, so quit hating on me. But I just mean it's rare and it's very movie like. And so, I don't know, I thought it was kind of funny to point that out. And I think that you can, you know, you can be inspired by so many things. Movies, other music, people in your life that will never know songs are about them. But I don't know. I think it's fun and it's creative, and I like having a muse. I do.

[Penn]

What is this complicated? I can't. I'm, like, brackling my brain.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Start some kind of. Do you and your wife live here? I'm like, do you live in New York?

[Penn]

We do, yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Okay. I'm gonn start some kind of movie, like club with y'. All.

[Penn]

But no, I feel like I know the title.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Alec Baldwin, Steve Martin, Meryl Streep.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Nava]

Okay.

[Penn]

That was, like, recent. Ish. 10 years ago.

[Kelly Clarkson]

It was like a decade, maybe. Yeah, yeah.

[Penn]

All right.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah. Krasinski, I think, is in it. Like, there's a lot of great people in it. It's so good. But the point is, is that her character, which I related to, just hadn't concluded, even though they'd been divorced, you know, for a while or separated or whatever, this character goes back to what she 100% should not go back to. But, like, you cannot fight chemical reactions sometimes, you know, like, you can't fight that. It's, like innate. There's a reason why you're attracted to each other in the first place. So the whole philosophy of, like, that's why I say I hate love. I don't hate love. I love love. But I just. I hate what love can do. I hate that it can promote blinders sometimes, you know, And I hate that, you know, you end up seeing hope and potential instead of what's actually there. So that's what I just referenced, that My Muse is really those two movies for that song.

[Penn]

I get what you mean. Yeah. Something we think about a lot.

[Kelly Clarkson]

You need to watch it.

[Penn]

Yeah. That sounds like something I could watch with my mom. I feel like my mom loves that.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, my God. Anybody? I love my kids. Watch it. My 9 year old likes it.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. Steve Martin and Meryl Streep get high at a party at their kids party. It's hilarious.

[Penn]

I'll do it.

[Kelly Clarkson]

It's funny. And it's like, I'm like, man, jagged little pill. I got a whole basket I'm putting together.

[Nava]

Kelly, you need to hang out with Penn.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And.

[Nava]

Yeah, let's indoctrinate him into pop culture.

[Penn]

But this is something that we think about a lot here, is like the. The. The love fantasy machine of pop culture.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yes.

[Penn]

You know what I mean? Because you're talking about love and what

[Kelly Clarkson]

society tells you love is.

[Penn]

Yeah. And like, you said something I think is interesting, which is you can't fight those feelings. And I. I mean, you can.

[Shan]

It's just hard.

[Penn]

Yeah, Yeah, I agree with you. And I think, like, what it really takes to. Rather than, let's say fight, let's say, like before we were saying rather than independence, maybe there's interdependence. Because, like, the idea we have about independence is sort of a. A little bit of a fantasy, too. Like a man is an island. Well, that's never been true. Maybe if it was thousands of years ago. It's not anymore. We're all interconnected, and we are interdependent. So, like, I wonder if we shouldn't be fighting those feelings as much as realizing, you know, what level of love they are. Because I feel like love, you know, we've made love so physical and sexual, you know, and kind of basic in a way.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

But then there's the love that it

[Kelly Clarkson]

takes to, like, you dumb it down.

[Penn]

Yeah. Right. And there's a love that it takes to, like, raise a child.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Which is such a different kind of, like, you are be. You know, the patience and discipline you have to show yourself in order to inculcate that in them. I mean, it's just.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And also, just if I can interject, like, then the conversation.

[Penn]

No, I'm going. This is my show.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, no, I'm just gonna interject. You just brought up something important that I don't think people talk about a lot. Like, when you do go through divorce, especially with young kids, the definition of love comes up quite a bit.

[Penn]

Cause they're like, that's so true. You don't love daddy anymore.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Wait, so you don't love daddy anymore? And I'm like, no, no. I was like, I love Daddy. I love that Daddy gave me two. We just. We don't like each other like we did, you know, and it's just different now. But then it comes into, like. You see it in their face. And so you have these conversations because they question, can your love change for me?

[Penn]

That's the whole thing. But we have a blended family. I have a stepson.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh.

[Penn]

So I'm. Well, well, well, well, it's.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And then it's hard when they go, well, why don't we have a grandpa from you? And then it's like, well, wait, you told me love was different with a parent and a child than with, you know, with a husband and a wife. And I go, well, it is. Okay, well, then. Well, it's not because your dad left you, Right? So, like, why. So that they're like, stop it with the question. I was like, I don't know. How old are you? It's so hard. And my daughter is nine and curious and just needs to know everything, you know, My son is like, not like that. He's different. He just has his own world. And then all of a sudden, he'll come out six months later and you'll be like, you were listening to that?

[Penn]

Totally. No, I love how children reveal that. We're performing intellectual gymnastics around things that are very clear and kind of straightforward. You know what I mean? And it's in relationships. I think it's even like, I remember the first time that my wife said when her first. My stepson was probably 7 or 8, something like that. She used the term girlfriend very explicitly. She said. She mentioned some past relationship of mine and said, oh, that was his girlfriend. And then I remember thinking, like, that's the first time he's heard that one. Let's see how this goes. Because the concept.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, that's the same thing. So my kid will see, like, Justin Guerini. And we dated for a bit after Idol, so he. They saw him. Somebody had me sign something. That horrible movie. Anyway, they. They. They had me sign something and my kids. Yeah, it's horrible. No, no. I contractually obligated anyway. But they saw it and they were like, like, wait, was this your boyfriend? And I was like, oh, well, actually, we did date for a little bit. And them putting that together.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

They're like, so you're with another man other than our father?

[Penn]

And why. Yeah, right. And they're like, so. But you weren't married.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, my God. Then there's the question of, like, people. They know and like, certain people are super religious, which is totally fine in their lives. And, you know, maybe still frown upon, you know, having a kid before marriage. And some are more like, hey, life happens. You know, like, that's maybe not how they want it, or whatever. So there's people in their lives, too, that that's happened. And they're like, you can have a baby and not be married. And it's like, oh, you know what? I just. They didn't tell you this in the handbook of having children. I was like, I don't wanna have this question, this conversation.

[Penn]

Yeah. It's really, really, really intense. And I think what's beautiful, it's involved. It's so involved. Because I think in order to have that conversation. Well, with them.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Cause in order to simplify anything, you have to understand it. And in order to understand it, it's like, oh, you gotta deal with your own. Really, what you end up doing is

[Kelly Clarkson]

even realize you don't understand it yet.

[Penn]

Well, exactly. You don't realize it until they ask you. And you're like, huh, how do I explain a boyfriend?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

How do I explain a girlfriend? You realize that it's actually not that clear necessarily. Because of our cultural rules around dating are kind of arbitrary and preposterous.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

And I just remember, like, what it does is you start to confront your relationships with your own parents, which, no matter who you are, they're the first ones at some point. And I mean this, like, in the best way. At some point, they let you down because they're not perfect. They are not God, they are not. You know.

[Kelly Clarkson]

But that's almost freeing, I think, when you're older.

[Penn]

I agree. Yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

And you go, oh, that wasn't about me. That was, like, about you. Like, it's just like, my kids, like, it's not about them sometimes it's just about me going through something. So it's kind of freeing to have that realization, I think, later in life. But. But also, it's hard when you have kids and you're like, wow, then what was done to you around you is almost like, wait, what? Then you look back and you're like, maybe that was really messed up. Like, And I didn't really realize it. Cause it was my norm. Right. So I don't know. There's a lot that happens, I think, you know, anytime somebody's like, oh, I wanna have a kid, I'm like, okay, well, you just need to make sure, first of all, you're good with no sleep. And secondly, that you're really like, are you good with you? Because if you're not good with you, you're not gonna be able to raise another human.

[Penn]

Right. And you're never gonna be totally good with you enough.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Sophie's about to have a kid.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

I'm pregnant.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Congratulations. Thank you, Abby. You're gonna be good with me. Do you know?

[Nava]

I was like, Sophie's gonna spiral.

[Kelly Clarkson]

This is. Do you know, have you had a kid yet or is this first one? No, this is my first as a girl. That's. That's amazing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy for you. I cannot tell you. I never wanted kids, by the way. I never thought I'd get married. I'm very much like just a wanderer. I like life and I don't know, I like that I got to be selfish in my twenties and then I ended up wanting kids later. Cause I had step kids whenever I married and I was like, oh, this isn't like. This is kind of cool. So then it convinced me to have kids. Right. Literally the greatest thing you'll ever be a part of. I know, it sounds so cliche. There's nothing really distinct cooler than that. I know.

[Penn]

Hold on, hold on. Let me get a pencil.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Write this down. Make a bumper sticker. He has jacket, if you will.

[Nava]

Nothing better than kids.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, but there isn't. There's nothing better. Like even my 9 year old little baby girl, like she's still. I remember her as a little one in my arms and it's like she's sitting next to me or actually next to me on this side, driving my ATV around the ranch at 9 and like just becoming this young woman. And it's literally you're gonna adore every stage. Some are gonna suck, but like, you'll still adore it because it's like even when they're being like hard, it's like you kinda like that they're sticking up for themselves. There's a little bit of independent showing, so you're gonna be so happy for you. How fun. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Nava]

I know we have to wrap soon. I'm so sorry to jump in, but I do wanna make sure we ask you about your album.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No.

[Nava]

So. So can you just tell us like, favorite song, sort of. Anything you want to share about chemistry, we would love to hear it.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, Well, I think the important thing for me was when I was releasing the album was I didn't want everybody just to hear one song before it came out because I feel like to diminish a Relationship down to one thing, like one emotional state or stage of grief or whatnot isn't cool. So there's songs on there that are, like, favorite kind of high that are, like, very intense. Like, you want to rip the person's clothes off with your teeth. You know, the beginning. That beginning chemical.

[Penn]

It sounds like it would actually take a long time.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, well, then you're not good at it. I'm just kidding. But I just. You know what I'm saying? That fire in the beginning of a relationship, like, there's nothing like that high of, like, the opportunity. Like, there's just what will happen, like, from this feeling. You know what I'm saying? There's nothing like that. And then it kind of goes through different stages of the relationship. But I will say, my favorite is that I tell people about. I'm like, if you're gonna listen to the album, you're just gonna listen to one song. At least listen to, like, Lighthouse. That's my favorite one. I think right now. It's a sad song because it was the moment that I figured out it was over, like, I couldn't try anymore. I was like, this is. No one's happy here. So, you know, one of us has gotta make the move, you know? So that was a really hard song to write, but. But I think it's the one. Because it was so hard to write. It matters the most to me. Cause I made it through it. So I don't know. I feel like if anybody's ever been through that kind of hurt, it's highly relatable.

[Nava]

Kelly. I loved all the songs, but I was telling them before you hopped on. I am obsessed with magic. I was playing that song on repeat.

[Kelly Clarkson]

That's my band's favorite.

[Nava]

It's my favorite song you've ever released, and it's one of my favorite songs I've ever heard. I, like, couldn't get enough of it yesterday. I was just playing it all day. I was driving around, driving longer to just keep listening to it.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Oh, my God.

[Sophie]

She played it 30 to 40 times.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, I did.

[Nava]

I did.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I learned to log in. That's so funny. Literally, my band, everybody remarked on that because we played the whole record for this show in la and every was like, oh, my God, magic. And I was like, that song means a lot of different things for me personally. But that chant at the end is like. You can 100% tell I'm an Annie Lennox fan. It's so Annie Lennox on that. Sorry for kind of ripping your vibe, Annie, but I just I love her and I just. It was what I wanted. I was like, oh, it's like when you're listening to Annie Lennox and she does that thing where she like talks but sings and it just feels like a chant or something. Like. Yeah, I love that song. That song. And it. And that's the thing, Lou. It didn't work out, but like, what a beautiful thing. Like if I die tomorrow, like, I got to feel that. Like, I got to feel something so magical at some point. I got to feel so much love and that. Not everybody gets that, you know? So that's why I like that song. It's about hope, so.

[Sophie]

Aw.

[Penn]

And you got a good record.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Thank you.

[Nava]

It's an amazing record. Everyone should go stream it now. It's so good.

[Penn]

If you could go back to 12 year old Kelly and say. Or do anything, what would you say?

[Kelly Clarkson]

You know, I mean, I've been asked this before and then I, you know.

[Penn]

No, it's an original question.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, no, no, no. I've been asked this more like in just life, because I remember that there's a Brad Paisley song that came out. I think it was Brad Paisley. It was like what you would tell your 16 year old self or something. And it happened in an interview once and I. And I was like, huh. And I always make a joke, usually at this point if somebody asks me this. But I think what I'd probably tell myself is like, things may seem like so huge, like in the moment, but like, I promise you, it's gonna be fine. Like, everything seems so massive, like when something doesn't go right. Right. And I think that we tend to, especially in our youth, everything is so detrimental. Like, it's just like. Just ride it out. Like, it's gonna be fine. I think that would have saved me and maybe teach myself how to catch some red flags and like, you know, leave them where they are instead of collecting them. So I don. I think maybe that it's hard though, because then at the same time, I don't know that I'd actually tell myself anything. Cause I think all those things got me to this point.

[Penn]

Of course. Yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Penn]

It's a terrible question.

[Kelly Clarkson]

No, it's a good question. But I just. I don't know that I. I don't know that I. Would you want to? It's almost like, would you change anything?

[Penn]

No, I would not change. No, I actually. No, I wouldn't. And you know where I've asked enough people this question now that my evolving personal answer is like, I would want to demonstrate to that boy that I'm willing to listen and I would really want to hear. I'm more interested. I wish I could recall more specifically what I would have said to me now, you know? Cause I think what. I think the reason being young is hard is the same reason that we can't always recall kind of our essence. Then it's something I don't feel. In my case, something has been lost, but I think it can be. And I actually wish I could hear something very straightforward for myself then, because that's when I was learning. And I think a lot of us learn to start hiding who you are. You are becoming who you are, but then you are learning how to hide that. And that's not a just society. We shouldn't have that.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I agree completely. Here's what's scarier than what you just said, is when you have your kid, you see that happen, and you're looking at them and you're like, oh, no. Like, this whole time, I thought I

[Penn]

was gonna keep you from that.

[Kelly Clarkson]

This whole time, I thought I was gonna help you and can steer you clear from. And it turns out you are my little identical twin when it comes to some things, you know, so that's a hard pill to swallow. But. But, I mean, I guess you have the experience to at least sit in it with him. And maybe the. Is what you said. Maybe it's just listening.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Kelly Clarkson]

To her, you know, and to him.

[Penn]

Well, people don't seem to. It's hard to listen to your parents. I think if somehow that's my goal is like, if my kids can.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I will say if they can.

[Penn]

If they want to. I want them to want to listen.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, I was gonna say. I was gonna say I'm pretty. My kids are pretty respectful. Like, you know, any kid can be a turd sometimes. But, like, you know, we all can, even adults. But, like, I just mean my kids are pretty, pretty respectful. But I do find myself all of a sudden being like. I mean, doing that parent thing. Like, yeah, I don't. I'm not gonna go through the time right now to describe to you or explain to you why I'm not. I can't take that time. Every time I just said, go do it. Like, just go do it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm Like, I can do that tomorrow. Today, I'm running on empty. I need you to gather your troops and get it done. That's. But for the most part, I'm pretty. I'm pretty. I don't know. I'VE developed a pretty healthy relationship with them as far as, like, you know, when I ask them not to do something, they generally are pretty good about following that, so that's amazing.

[Penn]

Well, now we're going over. We could keep going.

[Kelly Clarkson]

I'm sorry.

[Penn]

I'm a tolerant. No, no, no, no.

[Kelly Clarkson]

We love you. Lovely.

[Penn]

Yeah. But it was such a pleasure to have you.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Thank you for coming. No, thank y' all for having me. Next time, if I do see y' all in person, I'm gonna hug you. Like, a weird, awkward, long hug that you won't appreciate.

[Nava]

I'm gonna hold on tight.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Bye, y'. All.

[Sophie]

Bye.

[Nava]

Bye, Kelly.

[Sophie]

You can buy Kelly Clarkson's new album Chemistry. It's out now. You can also watch the Kelly Clarkson show on weekdays on NBC. You can also keep up with her online. Ellie Clark.

[Kelly Clarkson]

It's hilarious. I came out, I was talking to my crew, like, right when I ran into him, and my videographer Weiss was giving me, and I was like, you, Weiss? I literally said, you wise. And turned to look at Pen and was like, oh, hi.

[Penn]

He was the sweetest you ever.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah, it was a really nice looking, but it was like, I was like, I was like, well, that's the way to meet someone.

[Nava]

Kelly Clarkson, America's sweetheart.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Nava]

Stitcher.

[Penn]

Story Pirates is the number one podcast for kids and families in the world and the newest addition to the Lemonada Media Network. We take stories written by real kids and turn them into sketch comedy and songs featuring professional actors, famous guests, and original music. So get ready to light up your kids imaginations with a show that you'll also enjoy. The Story Pirates podcast, new season coming November 6th.