[Rerun] Rainn Wilson

Summary

Podcrushed – [Rerun] Rainn Wilson

Release Date: May 13, 2026
Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Rainn Wilson

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Episode Overview

This episode of Podcrushed features Rainn Wilson (famed as Dwight Schrute from The Office) joining hosts Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, and Sophie Ansari to reminisce and examine the awkward, formative, and occasionally painful moments of his middle school and teen years. The conversation traverses topics like Rainn’s nerdy adolescence, struggles with rejection, the experience of being different due to faith and interests, the power of community, and the lifelong journey of self-acceptance. Through humor and nostalgia, the episode explores how these early experiences shape resilience, relationships, and artistic growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rainn’s Nerdy Middle School Years

[08:16 - 12:24]

• Rainn shares the depth of his “nerd-dom” in 8th grade: he was in the pottery club, chess team, band (playing clarinet and bassoon), Dungeons & Dragons marathon weekends, and Model United Nations.

• Reflects on the difference between “being a nerd then” vs. now:
  “There was nothing cool about being a nerd back then... You were just the worst scum of the earth.”
  — Rainn Wilson [10:37]

• He found comfort and community among his small close-knit group of nerdy friends, particularly through D&D:

  “We would start playing at like 6 pm on a Friday night... play Saturday from like 11 to 11... Then Sunday, one guy had to go to church, so after church, we’d play until 7 pm...”
  — Rainn Wilson [11:48]

2. Middle School Then and Now

[08:51 - 14:39]

• Contrasts his rough, sometimes violent school environment with more contemporary schooling, noting both continuity and change.
• Rainn and hosts discuss the cultural shift from “free-range” parenting of the 70s and 80s to today’s helicopter parenting, and how kids’ interests (from D&D to gaming) often ignite parental concern.

3. Embarrassment, Comedy, and Self-Esteem

[14:39 - 18:27]

• Rainn recounts a pivotal 8th grade talent show, performing in tutus and twirling batons, embracing embarrassment for comedy's sake:
  “So here’s this weird thing where I was really self conscious and nerdy, but at the same time, I was willing to twirl a baton on stage in front of people and in a tutu.”
  — Rainn Wilson [16:30]

• Explains the paradox of comedic performers: often simultaneously insecure and willing to go all-out for a laugh—a pattern that shaped him both personally and professionally.

4. Faith and Being "the Other"

[20:17 - 23:08]

• Discussion of what it meant for Rainn to be a Baha’i—“a weird, gawky, misfit, nerdy kid” with an additional layer of “otherness.”

• He describes feelings of embarrassment alongside deep personal connection to his faith, and the desire both to hide and share it.

• Notably, some of Rainn’s D&D friends also became Baha’is, inspired by their discussions and involvement in youth projects:
  “That came out of, you know, long discussions… and kind of seeing the diversity and the enthusiasm towards making the world a better place.”
  — Rainn Wilson [22:37]

5. Love, Rejection & Teenage Heartbreak

[23:08 - 26:53]

• Rainn talks candidly about his first real heartbreak:
  “I had never been dumped before, and oh my God, that is just the worst feeling in the world… I would sleep in my dirty clothes on the floor of the closet...for days at a time.”
  — Rainn Wilson [26:06]

• The anecdote becomes a touchstone for the pain and resilience of teen love and the formative impact of rejection.

6. Relationship Advice & Intimacy

[26:59 - 29:44]

• Rainn’s advice on long-term relationships:

  “Difficulty and conflict and butting heads is part of what intimacy is about...The vision that you’ll never have conflict, that’s… really difficult.”
  — Rainn Wilson [27:13]

• Good advice: Look at partnership as “two people supporting each other’s spiritual journey,” referencing The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck.

• Penn adds that resolving conflict isn’t about “winning an argument,” but transforming dysfunction into connection:

  “The way that resolution really looks is not like winning an argument...It’s more like, why do I feel the need to fight right now?”
  — Penn Badgley [29:27]

7. Fate, Free Will & the Power of Encouragement

[31:19 - 34:56]

• Rainn reflects on pivotal plot twists that shaped his life—moving to Chicago and discovering acting at a legendary high school drama program, and the lasting effect of a teacher’s faith in his potential:

  “I went to my drama teacher when I was 17 and said, ‘Do you think...I could be a professional actor?’...she was like, ‘Yes, but you have to travel, fall in love, read books, have adventures… just keep studying.’ And my heart was just filled with light and hope.”
  — Rainn Wilson [31:46]

• The hosts discuss the enduring impact of encouragement from adults, and how cynicism can rob young people of hope.

8. What Would You Tell Your Younger Self?

[36:02 - 37:40]

• Rainn would comfort his 8th-grade self:

  “You are lovable. You are likable just as you are. You don’t have to do anything... You don’t have to perform to be lovable. You’re okay just as you are.”
  — Rainn Wilson [36:02]

• He ties this lesson directly to his acting journey and the therapy-like process of learning to accept and trust oneself.

9. The Challenge of Feeling Lovable

[38:04 - 40:10]

• The group examines why self-acceptance is so hard for teens (and adults), and the role of community in bolstering self-worth.
• Rainn suggests that strong communities can “lift” individuals and provide a sense of belonging that gives value and counters loneliness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being a nerd pre-Internet:
  “There was nothing cool about being a nerd back then...you were just the worst scum of the earth.”
  — Rainn Wilson [10:37]

• On nerd solidarity:
  “Dungeons & Dragons games… that was more my family than my family was.”
  — Rainn Wilson [39:46]

• On heartbreak:
  “I would sleep in my dirty clothes on the floor of the closet...for days at a time.”
  — Rainn Wilson [26:06]

• On healing from rejection:
  “Every kid I ever beat was every kid I couldn’t touch… that day in sixth grade, I received grace from a kid that didn’t know me. But for me, it was the first time I’d gotten it from the person I imagined I was fighting.”
  — Penn Badgley, sharing a middle school story [05:42]

• On marriage and conflict:
  “Difficulty and conflict and butting heads is part of what intimacy is about... True intimacy is being able to get through that.”
  — Rainn Wilson [27:13]

• On finding encouragement:
  “‘Do you think… I could be a professional actor?’ She said, 'Yes…but you have to travel the world’...My heart was filled with hope.”
  — Rainn Wilson [31:58]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rainn’s Middle School Experience: [08:16 - 12:24]
• D&D & Community: [11:40 - 12:24], [39:46]
• Faith & "the Other": [20:17 - 23:08]
• First Heartbreak: [26:06]
• Marriage/Relationship Advice: [26:59 - 29:44]
• Life Plot Twists & Role of Teachers: [31:19 - 34:56]
• Advice to Younger Self: [36:02 - 37:40]
• Role of Community in Self-Acceptance: [38:04 - 40:10]

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Tone & Style

True to Podcrushed’s signature warmth and candor, the episode is a mix of humor, sincerity, and reflective nostalgia. Rainn Wilson matches the hosts in self-deprecating, good-natured storytelling—whether describing the agony of heartbreak, the sanctuary of nerdy friendships, or the evolution of his sense of self.

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Additional Highlights

• Memorable Moments:

  • Rainn and friend performing “Watch Me Twirl My Baton for You” in tutus at the talent show. [16:12]
  • Hosts recalling Rainn generously gifting them homegrown macadamia nuts after the recording. [04:01]

• Takeaway:
  The stories underline the universal awkwardness and pain of growing up, and the ways that vulnerability, community, and encouragement can help us heal, grow, and ultimately embrace our authentic selves.

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Next Steps

Listeners are encouraged to check out Rainn Wilson’s other projects ("Weird: The Al Yankovic Story", "Metaphysical Milkshake" podcast, "Radio Rental" podcast), and to share their own middle school stories at podcrush.com.

Transcript

[Nava Kavilan]

Lemonade.

[Rainn Wilson]

Here's how intense it was. I had never been dumped before and oh my God, that is just the worst feeling in the world. I don't know why I did this, but I always used to throw my dirty clothes on the floor of my. This closet and I would sleep on the. In my dirty clothes on the floor of the closet.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, right. You were like, literally like stewing in it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. And it was. I would do that for. For days at a time.

[Penn Badgley]

It must have been a big closet. I mean, you said you were tall, right?

[Rainn Wilson]

It was six feet long. Yeah, it was six inches long.

[Sophie Ansari]

Or you were really scrunched up.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I'm just thinking about the dimensions of the closet.

[Rainn Wilson]

Do you want me to draw you a sketch?

[Nava Kavilan]

This is podcrushed, the podcast that takes

[Penn Badgley]

the sting out of rejection one crushing middle school story at a time.

[Sophie Ansari]

And where guests share their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying.

[Nava Kavilan]

And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher.

[Penn Badgley]

And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout. We're three Baha' is who were living

[Nava Kavilan]

in Brooklyn, wanting to make stuff together

[Sophie Ansari]

with a particular fondness for awkward nostalgia.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I struggle with nostalgia. I'm here for the therapy, Guys. I'm actually, I'm actually drinking chicken soup. I shouldn't have said drinking. Should I have? Uh, but no, I'm. I have Covid. And I will say that chicken soup has felt like actual medicine. It feels like there's drugs in. Makes me like sleepy and happy and.

[Nava Kavilan]

Because your assistant smashes up Ambien, right?

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, that's it. See, this is why I didn't get an assistant until recently. I. I asked for uppers, not downers.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, shout out Charlie, the sweetest guy.

[Sophie Ansari]

I want to have a one on one talk with Penn's assistant and be like, how are you? Are you okay?

[Penn Badgley]

He's like, I'm fine. I barely even talked to him.

[Nava Kavilan]

Ye.

[Sophie Ansari]

But anyways, our guest today.

[Penn Badgley]

But anyways, our guest today is Rainn Wilson. So Rainn is. When you know him, it's really easy to forget this, but he's a low key icon and is known for, I mean, a lot of, I think very memorable roles and some pretty iconic comedies like Galaxy Quest.

[Rainn Wilson]

Sir, I am Lank, senior requisition officer Juno. Third test today. Mama bear, your eggo is prego, no doubt about it.

[Penn Badgley]

And the rocker.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, bouncing it down.

[Penn Badgley]

Woo. What does that mean?

[Rainn Wilson]

I have no idea. Let's take five.

[Penn Badgley]

But none none as beloved or globally iconic as Dwight Schrute in the US Version of the Office. What is the most inspiring thing I

[Rainn Wilson]

ever said to you?

[Penn Badgley]

Don't be an idiot. Changed my life.

[Rainn Wilson]

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, would an idiot do that? And if they would, I do not do that thing.

[Nava Kavilan]

We actually drove to Rain's home to have the interview, and we had a lot of gear. And Sophie's husband, David was initially one of the hosts of the show, and he was also the engineer. And David was, like, the only one who knew how to set everything up. So we get to Rain's house, we go to his office. It's kind of a small space.

[Penn Badgley]

We were like a battalion funneling into his office.

[Nava Kavilan]

And David is setting things up as Rain is watching in, like, wonder and disgusting sort of simultaneously, like, why are there so many people in my office? Why is there so much gear? Why are there so many hosts?

[Penn Badgley]

Because he records, like, three or four different podcasts, and he's just like. He's got a mic and he's set up and he's all good, you know?

[Sophie Ansari]

And Rain goes, wow, this is an intense setup. And Pen, kind of like trying to diffuse the energy was like, actually, you know, it looks like a lot. It's not actually a lot. And Rain, there's a pause and he just goes, no, it's a lot.

[Nava Kavilan]

But Rain was super lovely in the interview. And then at the end of the interview, he brought us all bags of macadamia nuts that he grows on his farm.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, those macadamia nuts are amazing.

[Nava Kavilan]

And needless to say, David quit as a host.

[Penn Badgley]

Today's story is a story of growth, of humility and grace, and not for nothing of a kind of male intimacy. I don't know, I love it.

[Nava Kavilan]

With no further ado, we bring you dancing with the devil in the details.

[Penn Badgley]

Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Why did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.

[Penn Badgley]

Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here, and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music. Cyndi may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years, she has brought playful and A dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now. Only on Amazon Music included with Prime.

[Penn Badgley]

If this were wrestling, it would be God giving my ego a leg drop off the top rope. Now let's back up and set this story up a bit, okay? I grew up in the knuckle of the hood. You either had to be able to fight or. Well, actually, I'm not sure what other option you had. So now here I am, a young, angry sixth grader who had been dropping these little demons since I was born. I took karate and had a bunch of older cousins, so it was some hood, Bruce Lee type shit. So I had no fear of any kid on the block. Needless to say, this isn't a story about how badass I was. So you know where we're heading, but don't jump ahead, because the devil is in the details. So, one day at recess, there were a bunch of 8th graders playing football, and we were out there on concrete for context. So CTE was as common as breathing. And here I am, doing nothing in the corner of the courtyard, and I feel a ball smack the back of my young, precious head. I turn around. I see exactly who threw it. So there's only one option. I run up to my man. Remember, he's twice as big as me, and I'm about to leg sweep him on the ground. But as I'm going at him, he somehow uno reverses me and manages to dip me like I'm his tango partner, nestling my small head in his big old hand as he whispers, my bad, bro. Heartbeats. Yeah, no problem, man. Heartbeats. I cried that night. That's the part of the story I don't tell. In my eyes, every kid I ever beat was every kid I couldn't touch. So when I ran up to that bearded eighth grader, to me, I'm really running up to a man who'd beat me for looking at him in the eyes too long. I don't know how, but he saw me. He. He saw this coming at him. And what I got was a double black belt move in compassion, Chuck Norris of emotional maturity. I can't even look at the keyboard too long without feeling anxiety. Hence the days it took me to write this. I'm better now. Or at least mildly taller. That day in sixth grade, I received grace from a kid that didn't know me. But for me, it was the first time I'd gotten it from the Person I imagined I was fighting. Rainn, thank you so much for welcoming us into your home so we can welcome you to our podcast.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's a lot of welcoming, but you are most welcome. Thanks.

[Penn Badgley]

So can you tell us a little bit about what 8th grade Rainn was like, what he was thinking about?

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh, dear Lord. Dear Lord. Eighth grade Rain. Well, it's very funny that you mentioned eighth grade because just the other day I found some old papers and I found a story I wrote when I was in eighth grade for creative writing class. It's sitting in the other room on my wife's desk. It's called Sword of the Usurper.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

Very sophisticated.

[Rainn Wilson]

I was really into, like, fantasy and science fiction, and so I wrote my first fantasy story. So now I'm going to read it to you. No, but, yeah, so I. You know, it's so funny you bring this up, because as we were kind of getting ready for this conversation, I was just thinking about how different middle school was for me in the late 70s than it is right now. It was. There were kind of like bloody beatdowns in the hallways at least once a week, if not two or three times a week.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, that still happens. I'm pretty sure that still happens. I don't know.

[Penn Badgley]

Same way. I mean, that's.

[Rainn Wilson]

I don't know.

[Sophie Ansari]

On Staten island, it does. I have some stories for you.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Rainn Wilson]

All right. All right. Yeah. I don't. None of my son's friends or anyone I know has ever even seen a fight in. In a hallway. So I'm sure there are places, but that was such a regular part of life of like. Like seeing teeth fly out of people's mouths and blood on lockers, and the teachers would come out like, come on, kids. Go to the principal's office. They'd kind of like. It just was like, de rigueur, you know, it's like, oh, here we go again. And the kid is like an. Eyes hanging out of their socket, you know, and. And they're like, oh, just go to the principal's office. But I. So eighth grade, Rainn Wilson was about as big a geek as you could possibly imagine. I was on the pottery club. I was on the chess team. I would play Dungeons and Dragons all weekend long. And I played clarinet and bassoon in the band and. Yeah, and it went on from there. And then I went to high school and joined Model United nations and the computer club. I mean, it was. Yeah, I was. I was completely. And there was nothing cool about being a nerd back then. That was like, you were a loser. Nerds were just losers. There was not like any nerd rock stars or nerd billionaires or Silicon Valley or people with twitch channels or, you know, gates gamers, or you're just a nerd. You just. And you were a nerd. And you were just the worst scum of the earth.

[Penn Badgley]

Sorry.

[Rainn Wilson]

And so, yeah, so. But that was. But I loved it, you know, I loved my nerdy friends and I loved, you know, doing nerdy things, and I still do to this day. So I embraced it early on.

[Penn Badgley]

How many, when you say nerdy friend, like, did you have like two close friends, three close friends? Was it like, like, I'm trying to imagine that group.

[Rainn Wilson]

I had one very close friend named John Valdez. And then we had a posse, mostly the Dungeons and Dragons posse.

[Penn Badgley]

You would play together, right?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yep. And. And we did intensives. I mean, we would. School would be over and we would start playing at like 6pm on a Friday night. We'd go till at least midnight. Then we'd play Saturday from like 11 to 11.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

And then Sunday, one guy, Sean Higgins, always had to go to church. So at after church, like 1 or 2pm to like 7pm, and then we would do all our homework from like 7 to 10pm on a Sunday night and get that done with. But that was at least two to three weekends a month for years.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, to me, that sounds richly imaginative and social and fun, like a great way for young people to spend their time. I can imagine at the time, parents might have looked at that sort of game playing, role playing, as that generation's version of, say, the screens we have now, the iPhone, whatever that. I mean, some version of it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Sure.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, how would you compare that to the way that maybe a lot of kids in middle school are really into gaming now? You know, that's like, not this, it's not that. It's not exercising some of the same muscles, but it's definitely not the same.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, it's. It's not the same. It. It is much more imaginative than staring at a screen. You're creating characters and imaginative scenarios and fighting monsters and yeah, you have little figurines on a table or something like that, but you're imaginating all. When you're, when you're playing a video game, it's all right there. You. You see what it is. If there's a monster in a video game or there's a gun or a sword, it's. It's right there on the screen. There is a social element to, To Gaming, which I think is positive. When you get on the headphones with your friends and you all gather and you're, you know, shooting people or killing monsters or something like that together. But also parenting was very different back then. This whole idea of, like helicopter parenting, of parents, like being really, really interested in every choice and decision you're making as a kid and you're in the course of your education, that. That didn't. That didn't exist. So that parents didn't understand it. But I know, like my parents, they were just glad to have me out of their hair. And they. There's. Well, they. It's better than doing drugs, so let them go. I don't understand what the hell they're doing with these little figurines of elves, but God bless them and. But they didn't really. And there's not really curfews or just like, you know, come back, you know, find your way back. It starts to get dark. Head back for dinner. There wasn't. Now it's kind of like tracking devices on kids and where are you every minute? And it was just. It was a very different scene.

[Sophie Ansari]

I wonder what your. As a comedian, like, what your relationship to embarrassment it has been as an adult, but then also as a tween. Like, we're learning more about you in school. I'm in Matt. I'm like, I've been developing a really sweet picture of you carrying your bassoon and your pottery.

[Penn Badgley]

It's hard physically to carry a basso.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a workout.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. So I'm just. I'm wondering what. How have you dealt with embarrassment over the years? What's your relationship to it?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, it's. You know, I think comedy, comedic performers are. Are a strange breed. I described, you know, how kind of rough and tumble my school was and how nerdy I was. And I was kind of spent most of my time terrified. But at the same time, I Remembering the 8th grade talent show where my friend John Valadez and I, we found his sister took baton twirling classes. She had a little 45 record. And it was a song called Watch me twirl my baton for you. And it was Watch me twirl my baton for you. It is bright and shiny new. You remember one leg and then up high behind my back. Now I will try. How about that? I did it right. I must always hold on tight When I march it as high and low in a parade or in a show.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

We thought this was just so hysterical that my friend John And I, we got tutus and batons. And for our 8th grade talent show, we got a record player on stage and put that on. And then we choreographed a dance in tutus with batons.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

And how'd it go over?

[Rainn Wilson]

It went over like gangbusters. Like, we really should have won the talent show. But I think the teacher judges were like, well, we should give it to the girl who sang the beautiful Judy Collins song and actually had some talent. But the kids are like, oh. We were like. So here's this weird thing where I was really self conscious and nerdy, pimply and gawky and at the same time, I was willing to twirl a baton on stage in front of people and in a tutu. In a tutu. In kind of. So it's this weird. That's this weird thing that, that performers have. So I spent so much of my youth really self conscious about my looks. And I was like, I had this giant head and this really skinny body. Fortunately, my body is fleshed out to disguise the fact that my head is so huge in my middle age. So. But at the same time, I, I was a class clown because I also realized that, you know, I could make people laugh and they would actually laugh and like me, you know, if I got the giant globe out of the globe stand and rolled it down the aisle of my history class towards the teacher. And they guffawed at that. And so there was just, there's just been this constant dance in my life of, you know, low self esteem and feeling like a misfit and yet doing all these kind of outrageous things to get attention and, and which helped me build my voice. And that's kind of who I am today. And I'm, I'm really actually happy around that because it's, it's who I am.

[Nava Kavilan]

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[Penn Badgley]

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[Rainn Wilson]

of course I see my co worker in line at the pharmacy. Can you tell I'm picking up prescription hemorrhoid cream? I'm probably standing weird. Why is he smiling? He knows he's gonna call me hemorrhoid Lloyd tomorrow. I know it. I gotta quit my job.

[Penn Badgley]

Next time, avoid awkward conversations and get fast free delivery. With Amazon Pharmacy healthcare just got less painful. One of the ways that we know each other is through the Baha' I faith. So growing up as an American kid in the 70s, I mean, I don't know how much you identified as a Baha' I at that age, but coming from a family that was this, you know, a minority religious identity.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Did it contribute to you feeling like I have this other quality that is like, that is, that is maybe unusual or unknown, which I have to explain, or it's something that I don't think about much. And then it's also being that it is a body of teachings and writings of spiritual sustenance. I mean it can also provide support in ways. So like, how did being a Baha' I contribute to your sense of identity then?

[Rainn Wilson]

You know, as you're saying that I was like, wow, here's this really weird, gawky, misfit, nerdy kid. And then on top of that, my parents were Baha' Is and I was the member of this kind of weird sounding religion, very loving, inclusive, kind of quote unquote normal faith. If you explore it, there's nothing really that weird about it, but certainly a weird sounding name. So that was this whole other level of, of me just not fitting in. And it was a Combination of being really mortified and embarrassed about the fact that I was a Baha'. I, and at the same time, I, I, I felt it deeply in, in my heart, the truth of it, of the teachings and writings of Bahaullah, the founder of the Baha' I faith, and wanted to share my faith with people.

[Penn Badgley]

And did you have conversations about God with your friends? Like, the way that you talked to your other friend in D D who like, had to peace out for, like, Sunday school on Sundays.

[Rainn Wilson]

Y.

[Penn Badgley]

How were those conversations between you guys? Did you talk about God? Did you talk about spirituality? Did you. You know, we did.

[Rainn Wilson]

You know, we actually did. And that was another thing that was different about the 70s, is that people were open to discussions around spirituality and bigger ideas. And two of my nerdy little D and D friends later became Baha'.

[Sophie Ansari]

Is,

[Rainn Wilson]

I think for short amounts of time. I'm not sure how long it. It lasted, but John and Sean both eventually became Baha', Is, so. And that came out of, you know, long discussions around Baha' I ideas and, and going to, you know, Baha' I youth events, service projects, and kind of seeing the, you know, the diversity and the enthusiasm towards making the world a better place. So, yeah,

[Penn Badgley]

one way to, to, to, to look at this period of life is like, it's the first time you start experiencing these feelings of, of love and rejection, which are some of the greatest teachers in this life, you know, like just those feelings of love and affection and then how they get crushed, you know, so, so, you know, you don't have to go into any details. You're unwilling, but I think just, yeah, like, what's a, what's a. Do you remember your first crush?

[Rainn Wilson]

I had, I don't really remember my first crush, as weird as that sounds. I, I had a lot of crushes on cute girls through, like, you know, 6th and 7th and 8th grade and, but I didn't, you know, again, I didn't really think anyone would want to have me as a boyfriend. I wasn't boyfriend material. I was, I was busy on the weekends as we've gone into, you know. Exactly.

[Penn Badgley]

You're a working man.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. So. But then I had a few little dates here and there with some hand holdings. And then When I was 16, I had a girlfriend in Seattle, and she was the smartest girl in the school named Jill. And, but she was pretty, and we had a really nice time together. Very innocent relationship. And then when I went to Chicago, then I started to have more relationships, and that's when I got my heart broken. And one was this girl Tria. And she was, like, the first person I met at the high school, and I was just totally smitten with her. And then she was actually interested in me, and we went out for a while, and I was just. I was hooked. I mean, she was amazed. She was funny. And she played me Joni Mitchell records, and she played the piano and she danced, and I was just like, oh, my God, Joni Mitchell.

[Penn Badgley]

That's. Yeah, that's formative right there.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right. And. And then she dumped me for John Sherman. John. There we were doing this play called Timeout for Ginger. So many kids tried out for it. They did two casts. We had rotating casts. So one night it was cast one, and then it was cast two, and the dad on cast one was me, and the dad in cast two was John Sherman. So she left, and she was assistant director, and she left me for John Sherman. Yeah. But here's what's funny. Tria and I are now, like, best friends.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Did you reconnect or did you, like, stay friends?

[Rainn Wilson]

We've always been in touch.

[Penn Badgley]

That's great.

[Rainn Wilson]

And that's cool. And we're really close, and we talk all the time. And I'm close with her husband, and she's close with my wife, and. And I just, like. We just know each other really, really deeply.

[Penn Badgley]

Was there a period of, like, intense rejection you felt after that you had to recover from?

[Rainn Wilson]

Here's how intense it was. I had never been dumped before, and. Oh, my God, that is just the worst feeling in the world. I don't know why I did this, but I always used to throw my dirty clothes on the floor of my. This closet. And it was kind of those closets that had, like, accordion doors, so you can open the doors, and I would sleep on the. In my dirty clothes on the floor of the closet.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, right.

[Penn Badgley]

During this period of rejection.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. You were, like, literally, like, stewing in it.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And it was. I would do that for. For days at a time when I would just. I would close the closet, and I'd just be in there.

[Penn Badgley]

It must have been a big closet. I mean, you said you were tall, right?

[Rainn Wilson]

It was six feet long. Yeah, it was six feet long.

[Sophie Ansari]

Or you were really scrunched up.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm just thinking about the dimensions.

[Rainn Wilson]

There's some nice closet. Do you want me to draw you a sketch? Yeah. Which way do.

[Penn Badgley]

The door is open.

[Nava Kavilan]

Rayn. I have a related question that I just really like to ask married people. I'm not married and hope to be one day. And trying to learn about it. What is really good relationship advice that you've gotten and what is really bad relationship advice that you've gotten?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, I think bad relationship advice is this whole thing of, like, we never fight. Like, we never fight. We never. Like, that's. And then something's really wrong because there's gonna be. Resolving conflict is a. A central part of what it is to be in relationship with someone. So difficulty and conflict and butting heads is part of what intimacy is about. So that's true. Intimacy is being able to get through that, you know, And. And. And it's hard. It's hard work. It's difficult. And I think for a lot of people, there's a vision, maybe it's in television and the movies or whatever, that, you know, if you find your quote, unquote, soul mate, that you're never gonna have conflict. And it's just gonna be romance and love and beauty and, you know, and instant unity. But, you know, it's. That's. That's really difficult.

[Penn Badgley]

I think another misconception about fighting is that. Is that. Or, you know, struggle in a relationship. Like resolving conflict, as you say, is that it has to look like what you then do see in the movies, which is like the sort of romanticization of rage and conflict. And like, you know, you see actors just tearing up this furniture in a scene, and it's. It's so persuasive. And I think, like. I think it's. In a way, you know, my experience of resolving conflict in relationship when it works is like coming to understand that the way that, like, resolution really looks is not like winning an argument. I think the problem with so many of the ways that we look at arguments is like. It's almost like debate rather than consultation. It's like it's competition rather than cooperation. That's my sense. It's like, you know, in my marriage, what it's like, if something comes to a fight, then it's like. Well, it's not so much about fighting through it, which has happened, or trying to win a fight, which has happened, not winning the fight, but trying to win. It's more like, why do I feel the need to fight right now?

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, what's happening in me where I feel unsafe or I feel untrusting or I feel unwilling and to the point that I'm like, I'm. I'm angry. You know, I think that's transforming dysfunction into function, I think. I don't know. That's my perspective.

[Rainn Wilson]

No, that's. Yeah, that that's, that's well said. I, I would agree with that. In terms of good advice, again, going to this idea of community, that if you look at marriage and that doesn't mean you have to like have a ceremony to get married, but you look at like really long term partnership. There's this great book that was really popular in like the 80s and 90s called the road Less Traveled. And it's, I highly recommend it to everyone. It's really brilliant book. It's not a self help, it's not a gooey self help book. It's. It's got real psychology in it. But he talks about marriage being two people supporting each other's spiritual journey. So this idea that you're. There's something bigger than the marriage. It's. The marriage is not just you and me in love and we have sex and we have a good time together and we like the same shows. Like you're, you're on a journey together and you're supporting each other on that journey. You're mutually supporting each other. So again, it's, it's going for something larger that's kind of bigger than the two of you, really. So I, I thought that was very good.

[Penn Badgley]

So you mean like a miniseries rather than a show? You gotta like the same miniseries. I'm, I'm struggling to follow Trilogy.

[Rainn Wilson]

Tv Analog? No, it's like Grey's Anatomy. It's gonna be on for 25 years.

[Nava Kavilan]

Rain, I have a question for you. I think something that everyone grapples with is this kind of dance between fate and free will, choice and agency, like effort and confirmation, and then things just going in a completely unexpected route even. You've put in all the effort. So what has sort of been in your life, like a big plot twist or something that went in a completely different direction than you had anticipated? But that was like, important and like, what could you learn from that?

[Rainn Wilson]

Wow, that's such a great question. I think that there's so many different stories like that. Like, let's just go with. I'll throw out some stories about being an actor. Okay. When I look back on it now from middle age, there were so many things that needed to line up for me to become an actor. One is we moved when I was 16 from Seattle to Chicago. My parents speaking the Baha' I faith. My parents started to work at the Baha' I National Center. And we went to a nearby high school. And it had like the most amazing drama program like in the country. This high school called New Trier High School has a Legendary theater program. And I'd always wanted to do some acting. I'd never really done acting other than the tutus and the batons. And so here I was, and I was in an acting class, and I had these incredible acting teachers. And that was. That was so. That's. That's amazing. That was just pure happenstance. If I never had made that move, I would probably be a high school English teacher in suburban Seattle. There's nothing wrong with that. That's an awesome profession. But I. I wouldn't have been an actor if I had stayed in Seattle. The other thing that happened is, you know, I. When I was started to kind of be a little bit good at it and get cast and make people laugh. I went into my drama teacher when I was 17, and I said, hey, Mrs. Adams, do you think that maybe one day I could potentially be a professional actor? And I was so nervous, and I was really insecure and asking her this, and she was like, oh, yes, I think you could. Yes, you have lots of talent, but you have to travel the world and you. And you need to fall in love and read books and have adventures, but, yes, you must work at it and study and just keep studying. And my heart was just filled with, like, light and hope, and that carried me, you know, that helped me so much. But what if she had said, well, it's tough. Yeah, it's a tough road. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, it's true.

[Rainn Wilson]

Good luck with that. You know, maybe. You know, then maybe I would have been less motivated, you know, less inspired.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's so interesting how. I mean, I've heard similar stories for a lot of people. Like, thinking about my grandfather. He is a writer or was a writer.

[Penn Badgley]

And.

[Sophie Ansari]

And the reason he became a writer is because his high school English teacher read a piece of his writing and said, you could do this professionally one day. And then that just sent him.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Down that path. And I think. I don't know if adults always realize the effect that their words and their passion can have on young people.

[Rainn Wilson]

Your encouragement, encouragement and inspiration. It's. It's. This is part of the problem these days is it's so. It's so easy to be cynical. Like, it's just. The whole world is kind of set up to be. For you to be cynical. And it's. I know. It's something I struggle with.

[Penn Badgley]

Me too.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's an easy fallback position to be

[Penn Badgley]

like, ah, it's cool. We're still trying to fit in in some way.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

It's a very easy skin for me. To Don, by the way, you know, especially when I'm in interviews or I'm in, because I actually have great faith and optimism and hope and sweetness that sometimes hard to communicate those parts of yourself as much as being like, yeah, yeah, fuck that, man. Yeah, it's unfortunate. It really is. But, you know, something you were just saying about, like, the role of older people, of adults, and I'm even thinking, like, young adults in encouraging people going through this time, this, like, middle school era. What would you say to yourself then? You know, I mean, I don't think the point is, like, what would you change? Because that's life, right? But, like, what was something that you were struggling with the most then that you would. That looking back, you're like, oh, you know, it's taken me so long to learn this. What would you tell yourself then to give yourself some relief and encouragement?

[Rainn Wilson]

There's a number of things, but the first thing that popped into my head was, you know, so I'm describing this kid that always was, like, putting on tutus and, you know, rolling globes down the aisle and with batons and, you know, being a clown and trying to make people laugh and. And so when I was studying acting, I was always doing the same thing. I was always, like, trying to do stuff. I was always working hard to, quote, unquote, entertain and working hard to be liked. And I guess if I could say anything to, like, eighth grade Rain, I would put my arm around his shoulder and just be like, you know, you are lovable. You are likable just as you are. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to perform to be lovable. Like, you're. You're okay just as you are. And I had to learn that lesson as an actor. When I went to acting school, I was always working hard, like, in a kind of a sweaty, performative way. And my acting teacher said to me, like, you know, Rain, what are you doing? You know, you just. You're pushing so much. Like, you're. You're interesting. You don't have to do much. You don't have to do anything. Like. And I broke down in tears. Like, I broke down in the class, just sobbing because I really. Part of acting and, you know, this pen, too. There's. There's a therapy aspect to being an actor.

[Penn Badgley]

Absolutely.

[Rainn Wilson]

You're using yourself so much. You know, you're using your. Your body and your memories and your

[Penn Badgley]

emotions, and it's a very spiritual thing to do. It's a blessing. When it's a blessing yeah, yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

So. And I still. It took me years, but I. That's been a, you know, a big. A big lesson for me. Like, I still have to remind myself, like, I'm interesting, I'm lovable. I'm. Okay. I don't need to do all this stuff all the time in order to kind of get attention and affection and to be able to do my craft

[Penn Badgley]

for people that age, I'm wondering, like, what. What are some of the things about our culture? What is a thing about our culture that makes feeling lovable hard? And particularly for that age? Like, because I'm. Because an adult. Anybody can tell you something but you. But you ultimately have to live through it to learn it, you know? So I'm just wondering, like, for those out there going through this time, or they're older, and it's just the same, the same lesson. What are some of those forces that make it so hard to feel just to accept yourself and feel lovable? And what is a way to combat one of those forces?

[Rainn Wilson]

That's deep, man. That's a big question. Yeah, that's a big one.

[Penn Badgley]

Maybe it's just the question that we don't have to answer. I'm literally thinking about it. You know, I'm just thinking. Thinking about it.

[Rainn Wilson]

I don't know. I don't know what that is. But I, I. You know, the one thing that just popped into my head of, like, why do we struggle with this so much? Have humans always struggled with this? Maybe they have, but I think that. Not that things in the olden days were, like, necessarily golden days, but I imagine that kids didn't deal with this as much when they had really strong communities. Because if you have a community, you're buoyed and lifted by that community. Your tribe or your extended family life.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, where it used to be, without community, there. There was. There was no way of subsisting. I think, like, we've never been in such a. In such an isolated, individualistic. Like, you can. You can live on your own in a way that you never used to be able to. Is a good point.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right. We're social. We're social creatures, and we need, you know, we need those Dungeons and Dragons games. I mean, that was my. That was more my family than my family was, you know, but creating community is. Is really important for. For teens and being. Feeling a part of something. We just love to feel a part of something. Then we get our identity of, like, I'm a part of this thing that's bigger than me.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And I want to contribute to that, and then you feel valuable.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, thank you, Rain. Thank you for coming on our show, which is taking place in your house today.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes, thank you for coming.

[Penn Badgley]

I think this was a particularly nostalgic conversation. I mean, they're all. There's nostalgia in all of them. But I feel there was something about his nerd dom.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

That felt like I was living in the beginning of Stranger Things, which is, by the way, where evidently most people want to live.

[Nava Kavilan]

And props to Rain. Cause he really, like, went to those memories and stayed in them with us. And it was kind of tender and sweet.

[Penn Badgley]

Very much, very much.

[Sophie Ansari]

I love that Rain goes all in. You know, he'd start a bit, and I had expected him to trail off, but he just kept going.

[Penn Badgley]

He finished the whole song.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. That was actually what I enjoyed the most, was hearing Rain sing that song. It was so sweet. And I just love it when a guest sings.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, it's interesting you say that, because our next guest is me. I want everybody to like me and to be impressed by everything I do.

[Sophie Ansari]

Ben's like, wait, wait, wait. I can sing.

[Nava Kavilan]

I can sing even more than Rain.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, no, you like Rain. Okay, well, watch what I can do.

[Sophie Ansari]

Leighton was down to earth.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm more down to earth.

[Penn Badgley]

This is my show. No, I. Can I just say I actually played Dungeons and Dragons for a little bit.

[Sophie Ansari]

Really?

[Penn Badgley]

And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it a lot. And so I was living vicariously through Rain's prototypical nerd dom. I felt the joy and the sort of the camaraderie between those boys, you know?

[Sophie Ansari]

One of my favorite parts of the interview with Rain was when he gave marriage advice to Naba. I loved his advice. It was that some people say that you shouldn't fight, and he felt like that was BS and that having conflict and being able to resolve conflict is a really important skill and something that creates intimacy. And I think. I think it was really valuable advice.

[Nava Kavilan]

Tell us about your most explosive fight with David and Domino. Go.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, it was yesterday. Just kidding. It actually was. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

It wasn't explosive.

[Sophie Ansari]

No. But I actually was thinking, like, wow, we're getting really good at diminishing the time between an intense argument and then resolving it.

[Penn Badgley]

That's what it is. It's recovery time. But you, dear listener, we hope that your recovery time. This is a good segue, guys. Just wait. We hope that your recovery between episodes is no less. Wait. No, no longer. Wait. I got it. No longer than a week. Seven days. Next. What is it, Friday?

[Nava Kavilan]

I don't know.

[Penn Badgley]

What day?

[Nava Kavilan]

Wednesday.

[Penn Badgley]

Wednesdays? Wednesdays? Dear reader, no. You know, you can catch Rainn Wilson in the upcoming movie Weird the Al Yankovic Story, or his podcast Metaphysical Milkshake that he co hosts with Reza Aslan. Or his podcast Radio Rental, which explores strange crimes and all things paranormal. Or just follow him on socials.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari.

[Nava Kavilan]

Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher.

[Sophie Ansari]

Our lead producer and editor is David Ansari.

[Nava Kavilan]

Our second editor is Sharaf and Twissell.

[Sophie Ansari]

Special thanks to Peter Clowney, VP of content at Stitcher, Eric Eddings, director of lifestyle programming at Stitcher, Jared o' Connell and Brendan Bryans for the tech support, and Shruti Marathe, who transcribes our tape.

[Nava Kavilan]

PodCrush was created by Nava Kavilan and is executive produced by Penn Badgley and Nava Kavilan and produced by Sophie Ansari. This podcast is a ninth mode production. Be sure to subscribe to PodCrushed. You can find us on Stitcher, the Sirius XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you'd like to submit a middle school story, go to podcrush.com and give us every detail.

[Sophie Ansari]

And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials or we're telling everyone that your mom still walks you to the bus stop. You don't want that. It's oddcrush, spelled how it sounds. And our personals are Embadgley Ava, that's Nava with three N's, and Scribbleby Sophie. And we're out. See you next week. By.

[Rainn Wilson]

Do you want to try doing that again? Even more conversations?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, do you want to try? It was good, but just another one. Just another way.

[Rainn Wilson]

A touch less red and more said.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh wow, that's a new A touch

[Nava Kavilan]

less bad and more red.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh snap. Less shit, more it.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's pretty good.

[Nava Kavilan]

Sophie, come on, give us a rhyme.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm like, oh shit, I don't have anything here.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stitcher.