Tony Hale

Summary

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Podcrushed – Tony Hale (August 20, 2025)

Overview

This episode of Podcrushed welcomes acclaimed comedic actor Tony Hale (Veep, Arrested Development, Toy Story 4) for an engaging, multifaceted conversation about his adolescent years, personal struggles, journey through anxiety, faith, and the unique path that led him to his iconic characters. The hosts—Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, and Sophie Ansari—invite Tony to reflect candidly on his middle school experiences, creative calling, and the insights woven into his recent film, Sketch. The tone mixes warmth, humor, and depth, as Tony’s humility and wisdom shine.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• The impact of middle school years and formative experiences
• Navigating anxiety, faith, and self-acceptance
• The role of the arts and importance of arts education
• Behind-the-scenes stories from Veep, Arrested Development, Inside Out 2, and Sketch
• Parenting, generational lessons, and creating children’s content
• Practical tools for staying present and managing anxiety
• The value of humility, compassion, and finding meaning beyond success

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Tony’s Middle School Years & Finding the Stage

• Military Brat Upbringing: Tony moved seven times before 7th grade, finally settling in Tallahassee, FL, at age 12 ([05:00]).

  “I was a kid who was not into sports. And I was in the south, which is pretty much...sports is pretty much a faith down there. And so my parents really didn't know what to do with me. Then I found...this theater.” —Tony ([05:17])

• Young Actors Theatre as a Haven: Discovering a space where he could be “stupid and not judged,” Tony describes the children's theater as transformative ([05:58]).

  “Certain personalities need that environment to thrive, whether you go into a career or not...such an advocate for arts education, man. It's absolutely necessary.” —Tony ([08:29])

Family, Faith, and Anxiety

• Encouraging Parents & Artistic Influence: Despite his father's academic rigor (he taught nuclear physics), Tony received strong support for his creative interests, influenced by his grandfather who was an opera and lounge singer ([07:33]).
• Faith Evolution: Tony unpacks how his Christian faith grew from “more social” in the South to a deep, grounding personal spirituality, particularly during and after college as he faced anxiety and panic ([09:14]):

  “So much of the faith community, including myself in the past, tries to control. You can't control anybody's choices, anybody's behavior, anybody's reaction. If they ask for my story, then I love to talk about it. But...to control their choice is just crazy.” —Tony ([10:54])

Anxiety, Panic, and the Role of Humor

• Coping Tools in Middle School: Frequently bullied for being “artistic” and not into sports, Tony’s defensive humor began to form in childhood ([16:21]):

  “Your humor is formed...These kind of side comments that you do in your head in order to balance out that verbal trauma.”

• Early Panic Attacks: In a poignant story, Tony realizes a childhood “asthma attack” on stage was actually a panic attack—witnessing how lacking the language for mental health issues made it all the more isolating ([16:21], [18:00]).

• New Coping Methods: Through therapy, he’s learned to offer self-compassion to fear and anxiety:

  “Giving it a hug...there was something about giving that compassion to that fear that just was so opposite what I used to do...the minute I started, like, almost, like, giving it a hug and being like, hey, come to the table a little bit, it just diminished it.” —Tony ([19:43])

Crafting Iconic Characters: Buster, Gary, Fear, and Forky

• Buster (Arrested Development): Tony describes the auditioning journey, being cast out of commercial work as “not all there,” and how the show’s cancellation forced difficult reckonings with identity and satisfaction ([32:41]).

  “Getting a sitcom was my big thing...I got Arrested Development...and it didn't satisfy me the way I thought it was gonna satisfy me, and it scared the hell out of me.” —Tony ([34:58])

• Gary (Veep): Working with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Tony recalls their intuitive “dance” on set and the trust essential to great comedy ([29:50], [37:40]).

  “She sets the tone of authenticity. She set the tone of a team player mentality. Everybody was free to give ideas. I'm just so grateful for that, because it’s not always the case, you know?” —Tony ([37:40])

• Iconic Emmy Moment: Julia asked Tony to play Gary on stage when she won the Emmy—he was “petrified,” but it became a legendary bit ([42:29]).

  “On the show...she literally calls me a bitchy mime because I'm just not [allowed to talk]...So over time, I had to get...I'm communicating nonverbally all the time.” —Tony ([43:30])

Sketch, Grief, and Emotional Authenticity

• Long Road to Sketch: Co-developing the film over eight years, which centers on using art to process grief; inspired by the director’s sister’s real-life experience ([21:53], [44:44]).

  “There’s a message, especially by the finale, that there’s value in allowing ourselves to feel pain, to not rush past it or through it.” —Nava ([47:14]) “I felt like I was such a victim to my feelings, rather than bringing them to the table or having compassion on them, acknowledging them, being more of an observer of my feelings.” —Tony ([47:46])

Practical Tools for Anxiety & Presence

• Staying Present: Tony shares actionable strategies, with the caveat that some days, nothing works—self-compassion is paramount ([49:42]):

  1. Say “not now” to recurring anxious “what if” thoughts
  2. Grounding through the five senses
  3. Out-loud labeling, e.g., “feelings, feelings, feelings” or “thinking, thinking, thinking”
  4. Viewing emotions as “cars on a highway” that come and go
  5. Using language: “I’m feeling some anxiety” vs. “I am anxious”

• Acknowledging Protective Parts: Inspired by Internal Family Systems (IFS), Tony practices dialoguing with inner “protectors”—thanking his anxious parts rather than fighting them ([52:41], [52:51]):

  “If you try to just sort of force [protectors] away...they actually respond that they're there to protect...if you learn to embrace them, that's sort of the best way to deal.” —Penn ([53:51])

Parenting, Generational Perspective, and Children’s Media

• Fatherhood’s Refining Power: Tony on how fatherhood and marriage have "refined" him ([62:46]).

  “They're walking tools around you for your refinement...it's so hard and so much joy and you just change—I mean, you just change.” —Tony ([63:23]) Story: Daughter named Loy, after his wife’s late brother; memories of Arrested Development’s cancellation, buying a house, and supporting his family during career lulls ([64:57])

• Children’s Projects: Writing Archibald’s Next Big Thing as a lesson in living in the moment; his podcast Extraordinaries features everyday people doing incredible things ([68:07], [70:01]).

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Notable Quotes

• On Arts Education:

  “Certain personalities need that environment to thrive… I'm such an advocate for arts education, man.” —Tony Hale ([08:29])

• On Faith and Control:

  “So much of the faith community...tries to control. You can’t control anybody’s choices, anybody’s behavior…that’s just crazy.” —Tony Hale ([10:54])

• On Surviving Bullying:

  “Your humor is formed...when someone would call me a really awful name...making jokes in my head…to balance out that, you know, verbal trauma.” —Tony Hale ([16:21])

• On Self-Acceptance:

  “If you're not practicing contentment where you are, you're not gonna be content when you get what you want.” —Tony Hale ([35:12])

• On Feeling Pain:

  “There's value in allowing ourselves to feel pain, and maybe not rush through it...to have compassion on them, acknowledge them, be more of an observer.” —Tony Hale ([47:46])

• On Fatherhood:

  “They're walking tools around you for your refinement...you just change.” —Tony Hale ([63:23])

• What He’d Tell 12-Year-Old Tony:

  “Your value where you are is the exact value if you ever do have success. And then I would just simply say, it's going to be okay.” —Tony Hale ([74:58])

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Memorable Moments & Highlights

• Tony’s Comedic Roots: Painting green topsiders to play the Mayor of Oz; being “too obnoxious” for the Artful Dodger ([12:39])
• Hilarious Behind-the-Scenes (Arrested): Reenacting “baby bird” codependency by inhaling smoke from Jessica Walter’s mouth ([29:58])
• Veep Gag Reels:

  “What I do have saved on my drop is every season of the gag reel. And that’s what I always go back to…” —Tony ([40:47])

• Panic Attack on Stage: Recalling his first panic attack during a show as a teen, misinterpreted as “being too sensitive”; the impact of lacking vocabulary for mental health ([16:21], [18:00])
• Iconic Emmy Bit: Julia Louis-Dreyfus calling Tony that morning to execute their now-famous “Gary holds my purse” bit at the Emmys—with zero rehearsal and sheer nerves ([42:29])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tony’s Middle School Moves & Discovering Theater: [05:00] – [08:29]
• Evolution of Faith & Coping with Anxiety: [09:14] – [11:50]
• Drama Camp, Humor, and Bullying: [12:18] – [16:21]
• Panic Attack Story/Emotional Coping: [16:21] – [21:21]
• Inside Out 2 and 'Fear': [21:21]
• Making Sketch: [21:33], [44:44]
• Working with Jessica Walter (Arrested): [29:50] – [31:59]
• Arrested Development Audition/Impact: [32:41] – [36:18]
• Veep and Chemistry with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: [37:40]
• Tools for Anxiety/IFS Discussion: [49:42] – [54:52]
• Fatherhood and Balancing Career: [62:26] – [66:27]
• Children's Content and Archibald’s Next Big Thing: [68:07]
• Podcast Extraordinaries (Guinness Records & Puns): [70:01] – [74:28]
• What He’d Tell His Younger Self: [74:58]

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For First-Time Listeners

If you've never listened to Podcrushed before, this episode beautifully illustrates the ethos of the show: warm, unguarded conversations about the awkward, tender, and transformative years between childhood and adulthood. Tony Hale's open, insightful reflections provide not only memorable Hollywood anecdotes, but also practical wisdom about surviving growing pains, building emotional tools, and the lifelong practice of compassion—for yourself and others.

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Final Takeaway

The lesson Tony wished he could give to his 12-year-old self:

“Your value where you are is the exact value if you ever do have success...it's going to be okay.” ([74:58])

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Listen to Podcrushed on Lemonada Media, and watch Sketch in theaters now. Follow Tony Hale @MrTonyHale.

Transcript

[Nava Kavilan]

Lemonade.

[Tony Hale]

It's so funny because it's hard to separate painful cringe, embarrassment from, like, fun story.

[Penn Badgley]

No need to separate.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, give us a pain.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava Kavilan]

And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been.

[Sophie Ansari]

Your middle school besties singing Casey and Jojo in the back of our station wagon.

[Tony Hale]

You the only one in my everything.

[Penn Badgley]

And for you to die.

[Tony Hale]

All my. No.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hello, crushies. I am so. Did you see I made like, direct eye contact. I'm so excited to welcome you all to today's episode. Our guest today is Tony Hale, who I'm obsessed with. I'm a huge fan of Veep and a huge fan of Arrested Development and I think he steals the show on both of those comedies, which is hard to do with, like the brilliant co stars that he's working with. So I could have be more excited for today's conversation. Tony did not disappoint. He was such a delight. But I just wanted to give two quick disclaimers. One is that this is the only time you'll see me on video for this episode because someone's little toddler, I won't say who's spilled coffee on the computer where my video files were located exclusively. So we lost them. And if you were wondering why we didn't have video for the last couple of episodes, same reason, same culprit. But we love that little child, whichever one did it. And the other thing that I wanted to say is, as you've noticed, I'm the only one in this intro. But rest assured, Penn Badgley and Sophie Ansari are joining for the full episode. But let me tell you a little bit about Tony just in case you're not familiar with all of his accolades before I let you into this amazing episode. So Tony Hale is a two time primetime Emmy winning actor, you know, and love from Veep, where he played the delightfully anxious Gary Walsh. And of course from Arrested, as everyone's favorite never nude, Buster Bluth. Tony also brought. I don't think he was a never nude. I think that was a different character. So I'm not gonna say that, but. And of course from Arrested Development, as everyone's favorite scene stealer, Buster Bluth. Tony also brought his unmistakable voice to Pixar as Forky in the Toy Story universe, instantly turning a spork with googly eyes into a household name. Tony's latest project is a film called Sketch, which we all absolutely love. Sketch is out in theaters now. And Tony will be out of this taping in about 60 minutes, but until then, we've got him in the booth, on the mic and on the record. Stick around. August 2025 marks 20 years since Hurricane Katrina changed New Orleans forever. There have been many accounts of the storm's devastation and what it took to rebuild, but behind those headlines is another story, one that impacted the lives of thousands of children. Where the Schools Went is a new five part podcast series about what happened to the city's schools after the levies broke and how it led to the most radical education experiment in American history. Hosted by Ravi Gupta, a former school principal, where the Schools Went traces the decades of dysfunction before Katrina and how the high stakes decisions that followed transformed the city's school system. You'll hear from the voices of the people who lived it, from veteran educators who lost their jobs to the idealists and outsiders who rushed in, to the students and families who lived through it all. Whether you're a parent, an educator, or someone who cares about how communities and public systems can work together, where the Schools Went is a story you need to hear from the branch in partnership with the 74 and Midas touch. Where the Schools Went is out now. Find it wherever you get your podcasts and start listening today. Fetishized A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism and Beauty is a new book from Kyla Yu, former pinup model and lead singer of Nylon Pink, turned journalist. In this deeply personal memoir and essays, Yu reckons with being an object of Asian fetishism and how media, pop culture and colonialism contribute to the over sexualization of Asian women. Raw and intimate, Fetishized is a personal journey of self love and healing. It's both a searing indictment of the violence of objectification and a tender exploration of the broken relationship so many of us have with beauty, desire and our own bodies. If you're a fan of books about Asian American identity like Crying and H Mart or coming of age stories like Somebody's Daughter, be sure to pick up Fetishized, available wherever books are sold.

[Penn Badgley]

We start 12 years old kind of daily life. Like how was 12 year old Tony seeing and experiencing the world?

[Tony Hale]

Okay, so. All right, so well, let me just some quick history. I was an army brat so I moved like seven times before the seventh grade. Wow. Then I think seventh grade might have been 12 years old when we, when we moved to Tallahassee, Florida. My dad retired and I was in Tallahassee, Florida from through high school. So that was kind of, we kind of set camp there and I was a kid who was not into sports. And I was in the south, which is pretty much. The sports is pretty much a faith down there. And so my parents really didn't know what to do with me. And so then I found. That's when I found this theater. And so I was really. I dove in to this place called Young Actors Theater, which was a theater in Tahlasi, Florida, Like a children's theater. And I'm so incredibly grateful for this space that I could be stupid and not judged and all that stuff.

[Penn Badgley]

And what did your. So as we understand, you know, being a military brat, like you said, you were born on a military base, isn't that right? Kinda. That's the Internet. That's the Internet weaving a narrative.

[Tony Hale]

I think I was born in West Point. My dad taught at West Point. And I think. I don't know. I don't think I was on a base. But also, let's just keep in mind, like, sixth grade down is a wash. It's a total wash for me. Some people have massive details. I don't remember teachers, I don't remember friends. It is bizarre.

[Sophie Ansari]

You know, I'm so curious because that's just such a. I also moved seven. I lived in seven different countries by the time I graduated high school. But seven places before seventh grade. First of all, such a great way to just deliver that. Such a nice little tidbit. But which places? Can you just quickly list them off? I'm curious.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah. So I was. I was born in West Point. I think we lived in Fairfax, then we were in Georgia. And then we went to Heidelberg and Berlin. Wow. And then we came back. Went back to Fairfax. And then I think we went somewhere before Tallahassee and then Tallahassee. That might not have been seven, but it was. It's. I should have this answer. I should talk to my parents. But they mentioned it was seven times. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, you prepped us. You said it was all awash. It's okay.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, no.

[Penn Badgley]

And I mean, so there's. To me, that's an interesting origin story. You know, like your father taught. Is it true that he taught nuclear atomic physics? Something along those lines, yeah.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. And this is. This is in the 70s. And I'm just thinking of like, old pan.

[Tony Hale]

It was like in the night. It was 92. Oh, I don't know where you got it. Oh, yeah. It was in the 70s and. Yeah. But the cool thing about my dad is he's obviously a really brilliant guy, but his dad was an opera singer and he was also in addition to being an opera singer, he was kind of like a lounge singer, and they lived in Miami. And he died, actually, when my dad was 6. But because of his dad, he had a real appreciation for the arts. So my dad was always very encouraging of my path. Not always the case, you know, so I'm grateful for that. Very grateful.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, a military man and a military family ending up in Tallahassee. One could imagine that it's. You know, they were really disappointed that you didn't play sports, the way you're saying so. I mean, that's beautiful. That's really lovely.

[Tony Hale]

It was great. And it's like. I think back to that time, and I think I was about, like, arts education because I was one of those personalities, like those kind of person. Certain personalities need that environment to thrive, whether you go into a career or not. Like, I went into the career, but a lot of those personalities just need that environment. Such an advocate for, like, arts education, man, is absolutely necessary, you know, because that's how so many personalities find their paths in life, you know, is having that space. I'm really grateful, Tony.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm just going to, like, dive right into the deep end with you, which is a place we love to be. Your Christian faith seems like it's been a really grounding force throughout your career, and I'm curious how it developed throughout your childhood.

[Tony Hale]

Oh, big question. I. I think my childhood, my faith was a little more social. It was a little more kind of, you know, you. It was kind of the thing to do in the south to kind of go to church and all that stuff. And then I also have a history of dealing a lot with anxiety and, you know, go figure. I play like Buster Bluth and all these things, which I'm pretty at panic attack history. So in college, I hit a place in my life where nothing was making sense. And my faith, it forced me to really question why I believe what I believe. And it was really dove into kind of CS Lewis and Henry Nouwen and real thinkers, and also just saw a God that was beyond just a Sunday school social club. A God who, for me, a God who wanted to walk with me and saw a bigger picture than I did, which is very comforting to me. And then a God that I could lean on and a father, a really deep father figure for me. I get the question. A lot of. Kind of being a person of faith in the entertainment business, and how do you kind of navigate that? And I just. First of all, I'm a mess. I've had A lot of therapy made a lot of mistakes. I've said stupid shit. But it's also, I also understand that there's so many filters that people see my faith through, you know, and it's. I mean, there's been so much done in the name of God and religious trauma and. Which is heartbreaking. And so when somebody hears about my faith, I would never get offended about someone's reaction to it because there's a totally different filter that they're looking at through and if anything, it's. I want to have compassion, listen to their story and. And also I can't. So much of the faith community, including myself in the past, tries to control. You can't control anybody's choices, anybody's behavior, anybody's reaction. Like, that's. If they ask for my story, then I love to talk about it. But the fact of saying something to control their choice is just crazy. I mean, it's not. I understand the feeling, but it's not possible.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. And also another thing I have talked to my husband about so much is like, it's also just never works. Like if you're trying to push your agenda based on your own beliefs onto somebody who doesn't share those same beliefs, like, it's the worst way possibly, like going to do completely the opposite.

[Tony Hale]

And I have had experience where it has and I regret that, you know, because. And look at our country, it's so divisive, you know, no one's talking, there's no bridges being built of just conversation because people don't think conversation is enough. You have to say, you have to scream. You have to say something that's going to convince. And it's like that kind of agenda driven, you know, tactic, it's just not working, you know, at least that hasn't worked in my life. Sorry, there's a bug. Like.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, what's he doing?

[Penn Badgley]

I want to, I mean, I love this. I want to go back to you at 12 and then discovering theater. So it sounds like that was the age where you did. Clearly you joined Young Actors Theater. Is that right?

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So just give us a snapshot of like maybe the first. I just love the. That origin story. Like that first time you're like, oh, what is this?

[Tony Hale]

This is what my first show was. I wanted to be the Artful Dodger and Oliver and Tina Williams, who founded the theater company, who's great. She said I was too obnoxious, so I got another role. Just true. I was kind of obnoxious, but I just like, I was the mayor of Oz and Wizard of Oz. And I just, like, didn't care. I mean, I just, like, had the best time, you know, painting my topsiders green and doing all this crazy stuff in the. You know, the land of just all that. Like the apple seller in. I think it was the apple seller and Annie. And just to be around that community. And I mean, you guys remember if you were in the. Just the drama, just the absolute drama of like, do you know what they said? And there is no drama. Like theater party drama. You know, when you go to a theater party after a show makes sense. And if there's red wine involved, it's over. You know, I mean, the drama just gets to new heights.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

And so just. I mean, we didn't. If we'd have red wine back then.

[Penn Badgley]

But not a 12, maybe a 13.

[Tony Hale]

But it's just like that kind of energy. And I'm very close to all those people. You know, I love visiting them and going back and just telling. I just love it. And so, yeah, so I got. I started getting those roles and that really. I loved high school. I didn't have. I was bullied, you know, like, a lot of people were and I was bullied. And young actors became a really safe space for me. But I didn't like, hate high school. But it definitely wasn't as safe as I think as this theater was safe for me.

[Sophie Ansari]

What were your first experiences around love and heartbreak? Like.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, man, this is a classic question, by the way. We do ask everybody.

[Nava Kavilan]

We're not just singling you out for the most personal.

[Tony Hale]

My first around love and heartbreak. I was just. Man, my first exper. Well, I don't think I.

[Nava Kavilan]

Or a crush. An infatuation.

[Tony Hale]

I think it was more kind of crush. Like. I mean, it was more just fascinated by people. But I mean, truthfully, guys, I had so much anxiety at that age. It was. I just wasn't in my. I mean, even though I loved that time, I wasn't in my body. A lot of kids at that age aren't in their body. But I. There was a lot of stuff in my family. I grew up around addiction and some addiction. And I would just kind of detach and I would go into just, you know, I don't know. I would have a great time with my friends, but I was more like into crushes. And the thought of like real. An intimate relationship or that was just like, what? That's for the movie. You know, I didn't think kind of too not possible, you know, for me back Then at least.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. We have one more classic question about that time of life, which is if you remember a particularly embarrassing or like, cringy awkward moment for you, Holy crap.

[Tony Hale]

I. It's so funny because it's not even back then. I just look at my career, I'm just like, good Lord. It's just one embarrassing moment.

[Penn Badgley]

Was it the first or second Demi? I'm trying to know if that's the.

[Tony Hale]

It's so funny because it's hard to separate painful cringe, embarrassment from, like, fun story.

[Penn Badgley]

No need to separate.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, give us the pain.

[Tony Hale]

We'll laugh, you'll cry.

[Penn Badgley]

It'll be.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, I. I mean, I was. I would say there was a lot of embarrassment growing up, especially in middle school and not being into sports, being an artistic kid, a lot of name calling that was. And. But at the same time, it is wild how with that your humor is formed, you know, So I would. When someone would call me a really awful name, I would turn around and I do remember having a. Thoughts of like, making jokes in my head of like, well, little did they know this. Or like, that was just kind of these. These kind of side comments that you do in your head in order to balance out that, you know, verbal trauma that was just hit at you. And. And I mean, not to get super spiritual again, but I think it's pretty beautiful how we go through these shitty times and then God uses them somehow in the future. Like, you know, whether it be empathy with other people, whether it be these characters that I've been able to play who clearly are very good at codependency and very good at anxiety, panic. Yeah, there's. When you're kind of. You come from a space where that was natural to you, and then you can bring it into the comedy. I think the kind of. That whole evolution is pretty cool, you know, but not fun to walk through. This is so sad. But I do remember doing the show. The song was Jubilation T Corn Pone. And I think it might have been. I think it might have been Damn Yankees. And I was playing Mary and Sam and I was about to sing my song and I thought I was having an asthma attack. I ran off stage to get my inhaler and I took my inhaler and it didn't work. And I got back on stage and this is all. While this has happened. I got back on stage, somehow got through it, and I look back and that was a full panic attack. Because back then that language was not familiar. Even the word anxiety was not really familiar. It was more just kind of like, all right, Tony, settle down. Or Tony, you're a little too sensitive. Or Tony, like, you know, let's, let's. Let's chill out. Or just this, this is about just like, you know, just calm down. You're like, you can't. Your body can't calm down. You know, So I look back, that was a full panic attack, like in the middle of the show. You know, it's just like. And the crazy thing about that kind of anxiety is I remember then going into college and then even after college, it's wild when you have an experience like that.

[Penn Badgley]

You.

[Tony Hale]

It becomes this. This bar for not ever wanting to have that again. So you're like. It's like, oh, crap, I don't want to have that experience again. And then that increases the panic, you know, so it's that kind of. It's wild how that stuff works.

[Penn Badgley]

So did you develop, like. I guess I'm curious, did you have a relationship to. Well, it sounds kind of diminishing to use this term, but like stage fright. I'm just curious about how your, you know, because you really started to. I also actually, what I really do want to hear about too is how this went from being a more hobby or just something that was like a community that fostered you to being like, oh, no, no, no, no, this is. This could be something else.

[Tony Hale]

Well, I love that question because I remember three years ago, I. And it's something, if I'm honest that this is a whole other angle. But emotions are so fascinating. But like about three or four years ago, I did this play in San Francisco. It was mainly a one man play. And then at the very end, someone comes in. So probably for 45 minutes, I'm on stage alone. And every night there's still those thoughts of like, oh, we can. We can rehearse this, guys, but I'm gonna have a. I'm gonna have a panic attack in front of people. So, like, we can wait up, fine, we can keep going, but this is gonna happen. And I remember talking to my therapist and when right before I would go on and those voices would come up and be like, get ready. You know, you're gonna lose your shit in front of these people. And I got into the practice of turning to the fear and saying, hey, I really appreciate you being here. I know you're trying to help and I know you're trying to protect me. I'm gonna go do the show. But I wanna say that I really appreciate you being here and There was something about giving that compassion to that fear that just was so opposite what I used to do, like, buck up and like, it's not there and compartmentalize. And that just. For me, that just made it bigger. But the minute I started, like, almost like giving it a hug and being like, hey, come to the a little bit, it just diminished it. So those kind of, like. Cause I used to have bad stage fright and that. And once I did that play, guys, it was like, I can't wait to do theater again. Because it was like, oh, I never thought about compassion towards these emotions, you know. Cut to randomly. Another wild evolution thing. Me doing Inside Out 2, where I'm literally playing fear.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

In that one. And it's like, how cool. Just life giving me that.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, Actually, it feels to me like Sketch. I don't know how much. How consciously you've connected the two, but Sketch feels like that to me. I mean, that's.

[Tony Hale]

You know, I'm also shamelessly promoting.

[Nava Kavilan]

I love it.

[Penn Badgley]

But Sketch is a real.

[Tony Hale]

Thank you for bringing it up because we've worked on this movie for, like, eight years trying to get it made with. With my buddy Seth Worley, who wrote and directed it. And guys, it's so good. It's so good.

[Penn Badgley]

We've watched it.

[Nava Kavilan]

We all watched it.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Tommy, everything I've ever seen you in, I think we all feel this way. You're phenomenal, man. And also in everything you're a part of, like, very much including Sketch in this. And thinking of. Thinking of, you know, Arrested Development. Just like the. It's like, it's so much. So much meaning and depth, and we do really want to get to all of those, but I think.

[Sophie Ansari]

Well, I just have. I have to say, Tony, that pen texted us this morning with all caps. I love Sketch. And I was like, did someone hack his phone? Because he's never used all caps.

[Tony Hale]

I have. I mean, you guys have had projects. Things in your life like this, but it's. This has been such a journey, and to get it out there is so exciting because it comes from the director's, and we can get to something else really quick. But it comes to the director's real life experience that his sister was drawing these pictures that were really disturbing, and his parents, you know, obviously were kind of freaked out, and they took him to a therapist. And the therapist said, did you want to. Said to her, do you want to do these things? And she said, honestly, yes, because it was like a bullying situation. And the therapist said, well, I think It's a good idea. You drew it rather than did it.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. It's genius.

[Tony Hale]

So eye opening. And also just the fact that because it's about grief and how did the pictures then come to life? And I don't know. I'm so happy you guys saw it. That means a lot. A lot.

[Nava Kavilan]

And we're going to come back to it. We promise.

[Tony Hale]

You don't have to. Yeah, we are.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, we are. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

We still want to get. We're in the middle of your origin story.

[Nava Kavilan]

We just need so much. Tony.

[Tony Hale]

I marveled. Lizzie. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Sophie Ansari]

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[Penn Badgley]

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[Sophie Ansari]

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[Nava Kavilan]

So you were talking about that image of, like, the. Was it baseball? I don't know. Why? Something about, like. Oh, no, it was people kind of like, the comments about. And then in your mind, you were kind of, like, lobbing them back with these funny jokes and that being formative to the characters that you play. And I was thinking about, like, Buster and Gary. No actor should be able to play one character like that, let alone two. And I don't think any actor could, but you could because of kind of your life experiences. Like, they're both so incredible, so unique, really. Both of them have probably made best comedic characters of all times. They're incredible. Sorry that I'm, like, going on this field, but I love them both so much. They're both really dear to me. I've seen Arrested Development and Veep both twice. And the only other show I've seen twice through is Friends. So anyway, just say, I really adore you. So I want to know, for Buster.

[Sophie Ansari]

There'S so much that we could ask.

[Nava Kavilan]

But I know that working with Jessica Walter was really special. And that was, like, a really incredible dynamic. Can you tell us about that? What it was like to shape that relationship and what it meant to you?

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, she was a force. Like, Jessica was a real force. And Jessica, like Julia Louis Dreyfus on Veep. Just with comedy, there's that trust that you throw the ball and they're gonna throw it back. And you feel like Julie and I, we would call it like a dance. Like, we would do these kind of. There was times when I would. Oh, man. I missed it even talking about it. But it's like she would be talking, Selena would be talking, and I would be putting on her bracelets or putting on. Putting her purse on or jacket, and we would just be in this rhythm together. And Jess had kind of that same way where I just so admired her, Tim, and her commitment. And let me tell you right now, there has never been a picture of codependency. Like, there's been with Buster and Jessica. There was the scene where she couldn't smoke. She was on house arrest. She couldn't smoke. And so she asked me to inhale the smoke out of her mouth and exhale it on the patio. And then I would run back in, and she would take a big. And then exhale it into my mouth like a fricking baby bird. I would go and exhale it on my face the porch. And we had to do that take over and over. And I was like, guys, I got. I got asthma here, kids happening right now. But it was. It was so. We were so enmeshed. And at the same time, our characters, you know, hated each other. And with comedy, like, those kind of crazy. Because even Selena and Gary, like, those levels of chaos only add to the comic pot and the joy of it. You know, it does.

[Penn Badgley]

It really says a lot about Arrested that. That there's so much happening that I'm a true lover of it. I don't remember that little bit. I don't remember that There's.

[Tony Hale]

It was in the good. Probably you probably saved your mind from having to. It was in. I think the later. It was in the later seasons. Yeah. And she's on House. She's on house arrest.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

So I would actually love to hear. You know, you've told it before, so forgive us, but I think we probably have a lot of Arrested fans in our demo. And it's just. I mean, it's such an incredible series. One of the greatest ever. One of the greatest comedies. It's so brilliant, well constructed. Everybody in it is just delivering gold. And it just sounds like you guys have always had so much, like, appreciation for each other. Admiration, respect, love you. And so I'm curious, like, what was the process of being cast as Buster? And, like, you know, those first days on the pilot, like, how did. How did that feel? Because, you know, you must have had some sense.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, I. No, I like that question because I. With work you guys have done, my memory does click. I mean, it's good to talk about it, because it's good to remember it again, but so anyways, I was mainly doing commercials in New York. When I moved to New York in 95, I was mainly doing so many odd jobs in commercials and I was cast as like the guy my type was literally the guy who wasn't all there. That was literally how they saved me on the commercial casting. That hasn't changed much in the future. And I could not find a TV and film agent for like six or seven years because everybody saw me as a commercial actor. And then Arrested came on and it was a commercial actor casting director that called me in. Cause she saw the description and she was like, well, this character's definitely not all there. So they brought me in and I was so wanting it because I was continued to be a big Christopher guest fan and waiting for Guffman had just come out and just that kind of comedy was so different than what I had seen. And this was so different than what I had seen. So I was like, damn, this would be crazy good. So anyways, I ended up getting. It was just blown away. Ten days before we got married in New York. The show got picked up and I was like, hun, I think we're moving to la. And so she was like, what? What? And she was a makeup artist on Saturday Night Live at this. At the time. And so she made a really big sacrifice to move to LA with me. And so. But I was honestly, I was just very overwhelmed those first three years. I was. I had never been on a studio a lot. I had never had that much free food. You know, I was like, I gained 15 pounds that first.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm so glad you're talking about the free food because as someone who's never been on a set, that's all I really want to know about me.

[Tony Hale]

Oh, man. Yeah. And it's like, it's. I mean, I'd never experienced that. Just. It's like you just walk up to a table and it's like.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's honestly incredible.

[Tony Hale]

And there's something as an actor who was just, you know, struggling, I was like, wait, I can just take this. You know, it was what's happening. So that was kind of crazy for me. And then I think the big. I don't want to get all philosophical.

[Penn Badgley]

Quickly, but please do it. So I.

[Tony Hale]

And I've said this a lot on other podcasts, so I apologize if anybody has heard this before, but getting a sitcom was my big thing. It was my absolute ultimate thing. And I got it and I got Arrested Development, which is like the cast, the writing the best. And it didn't satisfy me the way I thought it was gonna satisfy me, and it scared the hell out of me.

[Penn Badgley]

And it scared you because you weren't satisfied. Like, you were. You were noting that you weren't satisfied.

[Tony Hale]

Because I wasn't feeling what I thought I should be feeling because I got my dream, you know, very. I mean, I got it. I got my dream. And after it got canceled in 2006, and I started. That's when I really started into therapy, and it was like I gave that thing so much weight that nothing can hold it. And most of my life, you know, with anxiety and kind of checked up, I was not present. I just wasn't very present. And it's that whole lesson of, if you're not practicing contentment where you are, you're not gonna be content when you get what you want. And I had just not been practicing. I had given that future sitcom so much. That's gonna be the answer that it just. Nothing could hold its weight. And so aresa was not only, like, such a gift comedically and, you know, for my career, it was a. More importantly, such a massive life, you know, turn for me, and I'm incredibly grateful for that, big time.

[Nava Kavilan]

I just want to share this one little quote. Sorry. And to the listeners, I realize I, like often share quotes, and I apologize if that's really annoying to the listeners. I've never apologized before. But there's a quote I like that says it's from the Baha' I writings, which is the faith that I practice. It says, be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity. So there's, like, sort of no scenario where you're allowed to your baseline not be thankful. Like, that's the baseline, and then you can build from there. And I feel like that's really, like, an interesting sort of thing to get.

[Tony Hale]

So I want one of those notepads, those iPhone notepads in my mind that I can just, like, jot. I'm sure now soon with AI, it's probably gonna.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's gonna be a chip in your head that's like, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Tony, we want to talk a little bit about Veep. Veep is obviously iconic, incredible. You play Gary Walsh, who is, as Nava put it, show stealing. And your dynamic with Julia Louis Dreyfus, who we love. We've had her on the show. She's just. It's like, she's a perfect example of, like, meet your heroes. Like, she's just as lovely as you think she's gonna be. What was it about your Dynamic together. Your partnership together that allowed for such a specific. Yeah, team chemistry is the word you're looking for. Yes. Thank you.

[Tony Hale]

First of all, what you saw is the real deal. Like, she's super genuine. I mean, Pen, you've been on so many shows where sometimes there's a personality that kind of creates a toxicity and can kind of change the vibe. And she. I've been on those shows, and it's like she just has. She sets the tone. She set the tone of authenticity. She set the tone of a team player mentality. Everybody was free to give ideas. And I'm just so grateful for that because it's not always the case, you know? Like, I think. And I'm not saying I'm not guilty of the parts of this, but it's like entitlement, arrogance, all that stuff just sucks creative energy out of a space. She didn't have any of that. Like, she came in so wide open and was like, hey, we're all in this together. And we all knew. It's like, you're fricking Julia Louise Triford. And I've been the one that is literally standing behind her the whole time. So I was very intimidated. However, here's a fun story. People came up to us on different occasions and said, did you and Tony ever worked together before? We both separately said, no. This is our first time working together. Cut to. Somebody sends us a screenshot of us in a scene together on Arrested Development. That's how. How forgettable each of us were to each other on Arrested Development. We were both convinced we had not worked together. But it was. I don't know. She. I was fortunate to be that close to her, so I could catch all the subtleties. I could catch just all the noises, all that stuff that just. She turned to me once and. Cause I was laughing too hard. And she says, toni, you know, you're not watching the show. You're in the show. And it's. Because I just.

[Penn Badgley]

It's amazing.

[Tony Hale]

I don't know. She. It's. It was just so funny. And it's really hard to. I don't know if, Pen. If you've had that, but it's like you just can't keep it together. Like, it's. Your body is shaking sometimes, and it's like, I'm sorry I ruined it for the thousandth time. Yeah, that's amazing.

[Penn Badgley]

I think that's a really admirable quality of yours that I'm actually remembering. I listened to an interview of yours years ago. No recollection of where it was. Or maybe I was hearing somebody else speak about you. It was all incredibly positive and flattering, and I hope this sounds the same to me. You have this really interesting quality of being like. Like, look, you're essential. You're a comedic titan, too. You've been a part of so many projects now that are. That are incredible. You are incredible in them.

[Tony Hale]

Pain. So much pain. It comes from.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, well, well. And then at the same time, you have this just undeniable humility of like, a fan, you know, and that's some. I don't feel as though I've seen that before quite in that way. And I think that's. That's very. I think it's really beautiful.

[Tony Hale]

Oh, that's nice. Thanks for saying that. I. I will say, like, growing up, I was a massive Carol Burnett and Tim Conway fan, and my favorite thing to watch was the. When they would break, when the blooper reels. And I honestly. I should watch Veep over and I should watch the rest of. But I don't. What I do have saved on my drop is every season of the gag reel. And that's what I always go back to because. And sometimes I get emotional about it because I just. That energy and just the joy. Just like the absolute joy of not being able to control your laughter is like. There's nothing like it. It's just the best.

[Sophie Ansari]

The best feeling.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

This is why I want to do a comedy.

[Tony Hale]

It's bad.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I'm about to, actually. I don't know if we should cut that out or whatever. I don't know what kind of. Yeah. But I am. I am about to do one, so that'll be nice.

[Sophie Ansari]

This is just an aside, but do they still provide those bloopers for you, those gag reels, like, on projects today? Do people still do that?

[Tony Hale]

They always provide. I don't know about you, Ben, but they always.

[Penn Badgley]

Usually at the wrap party, right?

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, the wrap party. And then. But sometimes they make them public on YouTube. Yeah, and then. But I just like. And actually, as a gift, as a rap gift for our last season, I gave. This is how obsessed I am with them. I gave them each a flash drive with all the gag reels on them.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, that's nice.

[Tony Hale]

Sweet.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's a great, great wrap. Okay, one more Veep question. Sort of Veep. Sort of not. But there's this incredible moment at the Emmys where Julia wins and you stand behind her sort of as Gary. And I'm just curious, were you nervous? How did you pull that off?

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, I even get nervous thinking about it. Okay. So she called me that morning and said, hey, I'm thinking if I win, I want you to carry my bag. And I immediately thought, oh, well, you are going to win, so this is going to happen. And then she obviously won and called me up and we had kind of arranged some little bits, but thankfully it worked out. But guy, I was absolutely petrified.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'd like to thank our producers, Tony Roach, Simon Blackwell, Chris Godsick, Frank Rich, Stephanie Lang. I'd like to thank our, my family, Brad hall and Henry hall and Charlie Hall. My children are here this evening.

[Tony Hale]

You love them so much and I.

[Sophie Ansari]

Love them so much.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, it's actually incredible to know you didn't rehearse it.

[Tony Hale]

That's unbelievable. No, we didn't rehearse it. And they what's fun is like on the show, you know, Gary. She doesn't even let Gary speak. Gary's not allowed to speak. Right. She literally calls me a bitchy mime on the show because I'm just not. And so over time I had to get. I'm communicating non verbally all the time. So when she's, she's at like a press conference or something and she's being all political and stuff, it was so fun to react the way I actually think she's thinking, like if she's talking to a moron and I'm just like, oh, good, you know, or something just to be able to non verbally show what she's saying. Yeah, that was like, you know, pure joy. Pure joy. That makes me miss it. And I'm gonna be on here, I'm just gonna show up at your comedy, be like, hey guys, that would be amazing.

[Penn Badgley]

Dude, seriously, I'll find a role for you. You would be.

[Nava Kavilan]

You're in it. You just got cast.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, so should we move on to sketch? Yeah, you know, there's a lot of thoughts I have. I mean, how collaborative was it with you and the director before a script existed? Or did you just read the script or like, you know how.

[Tony Hale]

Oh man, it's almost. I mean, it's like when somebody says, tell me about your daughter, and I'm like, oh, where were you going?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, well, she's deceived.

[Tony Hale]

No, but it's like he came to me with the idea of my wife in the movie dies and my daughter is dealing with grief and she draws out her grief and then they come to life and we describe it like Jurassic Park. Park meets inside out. And it came to me with the script and we just went back and forth. He had had a very strong. Obviously a very strong scripted base. And then we just kind of played around with lines and rhythms and for years, not years, maybe a couple years. And then we thought, oh, maybe this should be. So we tried to pitch it and nobody wanted it. And then. And honestly, I look back and I'm like, it probably wasn't ready. And then we thought, well, let's do it as a TV show. It didn't work as a TV show. And then we went back to the film and really had many moments over the course of eight years. We were like, let's just let it go. Let's just not do it. And all that stuff. And then it took somebody else kind of coming in saying, hey, I think there's this other person that might want to finance it. And then like in three months we're shooting.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Tony Hale]

And it was such an up and down experience. But to me, I've never had an experience where, you know, as actors, many times we don't have control of the material. You know, you don't. There's. I love. I loved Arrested, but I'm not a part of the creation of the script and all that stuff. Being a part of this from the ground and just seeing it all develop, man, the ownership and the joy of the last day when you rap, when they say cut and you got it all in the can.

[Nava Kavilan]

Woo.

[Tony Hale]

I was out of my skin just because I had such an emo. We had such an emotional investment in it. And I knew what Seth is gonna do with it. Cause he's so gifted. Like a really quick example. When these pictures come to life, they don't look perfect. They look like a child has drawn them. Like they've been scratched with.

[Penn Badgley]

Great.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, with like scratched with crayon or Sharpie and very kind of rough and crude. And it's like. And then when they're destroyed, it's like, you know, fire takes out wax and water takes out. It's all this kind of stuff. And just the specifics that I knew that he was thinking, I was like, damn it, I'm so stoked for you to take this and then do your magic. Like, that's. That was really, really exciting, Tony.

[Nava Kavilan]

The message. I mean, the movie has probably various themes. I'm saying probably. I have seen it. But the one that stood out to me is this message that really comes through in the finale. This idea that, like, we should allow ourselves to feel pain and maybe not like rush through that. Try to rush through that emotion. But Actually, there's a value in feeling it. And I was curious why that was a message that you wanted to kind of bring to life, and maybe one that's kind of counter to American culture, which is like, run away from pain or get through it as quickly as possible.

[Tony Hale]

Nava, I gotta tell you, it really wasn't until you said that that I realized that that's probably why I have been so close to this project, why I have, like, over the years. It's because there's that thing of like, no, we can't let this go. Oh, we can't do this, but let's not let it go. And when you said that, I'm like, yeah, that's been so much the story of my life with my feelings. I felt like I was such a victim to my feelings, rather than bringing them to the table or having compassion on them, acknowledging them, being more of an observer of my feelings, you know, oh, wow, there's that. There's that thought. There's that awful thought that someone's gonna kidnap my daughter. There's that feeling like I'm not gonna be able to get through this or whatever. And this was her feelings, you know, coming to life and embracing them and seeing them for the first time, you know, in real life. And so. So, yeah, I think when you said that, I was like, yeah, that's probably why I have held on, because it is very personal.

[Penn Badgley]

And I can't help but think.

[Sophie Ansari]

In another life. You've talked consistently, Tony, about trying to stay in the present moment, and that that's like a lifelong goal. And, you know, you wrote a children's book about it. You have a show, Archibald's Next Big Thing. And. And I heard you talk in an interview about a moment where you were about to go on a late night show. I can't remember which one. And you were feeling so nervous, you could start to feel a panic attack coming on. And you, like, last second decided to start asking questions to the guys who were gonna open the curtain for you. And that. That helped you just move through it. And I thought, oh, my gosh. First of all, expert. That's so smart to just take yourself outside of your body or your mind for a second. And then I thought, this guy probably has some other tools. He probably has little practical tips for how to bring yourself back into the present moment. And I wondered if you could share any.

[Tony Hale]

I do. And I also want to say the caveat that I have all these tools. And then yesterday was a day where I felt like I was drowning in my feelings, there's still those days that come and go. Like yesterday, I was like, God darn it, these tools aren't working. You know? So I guess what I'm saying is, like, giving yourself the grace that there's going to be those days where you're just feeling like, I just got to keep walking, you know, and I gotta, like, I gotta get to. And then the next morning, I really. I felt better, you know? But those. Some of those tools that I use are. For one is like, when I live in the what if? Many times, what if? What if? What if? I just say, not now. And many times I say it over and over. I activate the five senses. What am I hearing, Smelling, touching, tasting. That's fine. But I activate those. There's so many. I think a lot of, like, oh, like when thoughts. So many thoughts are in the head, or so many feelings are coming. Like yesterday. Of course, I forgot about this one. This would have been a good one for yesterday. Just saying out loud, feelings, feelings, feelings. Thinking, thinking, thinking. There's something about when you put a word to something, it kind of. I don't know, for me, it calms the system down a little bit. It puts a name on it because what. As I mentioned before, sometimes you feel like it's driving you, but when you kind of put a name to it, it feels like you're a little more in the car seat, you know, and it's like, oh, yeah. Like when crazy thoughts. Rather than those crazy thoughts going off the rails, it's like, oh, thinking, thinking, thinking, feeling, feeling, feeling. Or like, I'll always say just watching emotions and feelings, like cars on a highway way. It's like, yep, there's that. There's that thought. Like, for instance, when I was on stage and I was like. And that voice came up and was like, all right, you might want to have a panic attack. I've literally many. In addition to saying that, I would say, yeah, I thought. I thought you'd be here. I was, I was. I knew I. In addition to being like, hey, thanks for coming. I knew you'd be here. I think 20 years ago, people would label that as crazy. But it's not.

[Penn Badgley]

It's not crazy at all.

[Tony Hale]

No, it's having that dialogue with something that I already feel at the time is like, am I. I'm, like, drowning in this. Rather than, like, let me just have a discussion with it, you know? And like. Like yesterday, for instance, another one I could have done has been like, this is what it feels like when I feel Like I'm drowning in my feelings. This is what it feels like when things just feel off the rails. Because it, what it does, it. It doesn't put such a. Again, it puts that name to it. And I have stopped saying. I think I heard another interview say this, but I have stopped saying I'm anxious or I'm afraid. Say I'm feeling some anxiety, I'm feeling some fear. Because you got to watch how many labels you give on yourself, you know? Tony, do you, do you.

[Penn Badgley]

Are you familiar with ifs internal family systems?

[Tony Hale]

I just, I just got the book.

[Penn Badgley]

Because what you were naming earlier about this, like the protector and all this stuff.

[Tony Hale]

Stuff.

[Penn Badgley]

So to be clear, one of us should explain a bit of this. It's this sense that when it's referring to an internal family system, not your family system, but the, as we might say, parts or dimensions or aspects of you, which, you know, in some very serious cases of like, trauma with a capital T can be like a frozen four year old, a frozen five year old. But in a lot of cases, it's just the small T and just the sort of like parts of you that are kind of acting up and that part of you that's anxious. We actually, I think. I'm not a therapist here. I'm just trying to remember all of it. It's like basically you start to. You start to identify protectors, and those protectors are the ones that get anxious and angry and fearful. And you actually, what you said earlier, you have to thank them as opposed. If you try to, if you try to, like, if you try to. If you try to just sort of force them away, will they actually respond that they're there to protect and almost be antagonized? And if you learn to embrace them, that's sort of the best way to deal.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah. There's also those firefighters, I think, that kind of come in.

[Penn Badgley]

That's right. That's right.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

There's a lot of different terminologies.

[Tony Hale]

And I'm not like firefighters and the protect. The firefighters just come in with a hose and sometimes just like someone would just lash out in something because that's how they're kind of dealing with it. I haven't gotten as far into it as I want to, but it's really, really good. And also, not to sound basic, but I'm a big fan of like, kind of like what novel, like quotes. I have all these quotes on my wall.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

And one so helpful. Yeah. And one of them that I. In our business, it's very easy to Believe that you have value when something happens, you have value when this happens, when you get this, when you get this. And I always love to tell, you know, young actors or people, whatever, saying, hey, your value is the same before and after success. You know, that doesn't change. The value you have now is the exact same. And just like, things like that, that I like, how much power am I giving this right now? Is it going to change my value? No, it's not.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, there's a quote I can think of that I love. It's also from the Baha' I writings, but it's let each morn be better than its eve and each morrow richer than its yesterday. And the reason I like that I've spent many years with it, but then realized somewhere down the line that it's a very merciful and, like, forgiving take on feeling, quote, unquote, better or richer. Because a morning being simply better than the evening before, it does not mean that every day you have to get better. It says every day is richer. And I think for the variety of experience, the diversity of experience that you have, even if you've had a terrible day that set you back, back, you could feel years, you know, but the next morning, you at least have that understanding. And you tend to wake up on mornings, tend to.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

It's like some kind of reset. So that's a little.

[Tony Hale]

And using what you had before to, like, cater into that experience. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Yeah. There's also another. There was a. There was a famous. A female evangelist named Joyce Meyers, and years ago, I heard her just simply say, do it afraid. And I've never forgotten that because I think we, or I have gotten into a space in the past of like, you have to be in a certain space mentally, peacefully, joyfully, whatever, to do something. And it's like, no, sometimes you just. You might be freaked out and you still walk and still walk through the door.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

That quote came to me when you were telling the story of your inhaler incident walking off the stage. I was like, wow, it's honestly incredible that you have. That you had that experience and that you're like, let's do it again. Let's keep going. I think, yeah, you're a walking testament to that. I quote, do it afraid.

[Tony Hale]

Mod therapy.

[Sophie Ansari]

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[Penn Badgley]

All right, so let's just, let's just real talk as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. Now that that dates me, doesn't it? But no real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a 1 to 10. And I don't mean the in the sense of vanity, I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed, you don't want to get sick when you have responsibilities. I know myself, I'm a householder. I have, I have two children and two more on the way. A spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demand hands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm, that I'm being held down some other way physically, you know, my family holds me down emotionally. Spiritually, but I need something to hold.

[Tony Hale]

Me down physically, right?

[Penn Badgley]

And so honestly, I turn to Symbiotica, these, these, these, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I, I really, really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with the three that I use. I use, I use the, the, what is it called? The liposomal vitamin C. And it tastes delicious. Like really, really good. Comes out in a packet. You put it right in your mouth.

[Tony Hale]

Some people don't do that.

[Penn Badgley]

I do it. I think it tastes great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health. And although I don't need it, you know, anti aging. And then I also use the magnesium L Threonate, which is really good for, for, I think, mood and stress.

[Tony Hale]

I sometimes use it in the morning.

[Penn Badgley]

Sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com podcrust for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com podcrusted for 20% off, off plus free shipping.

[Sophie Ansari]

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[Penn Badgley]

Fatherhood. How you know, tell us about fatherhood. Well, I'm just thinking about the ways that it. Surely it's influenced the way you created sketch. It sounds like, you know, at what point did that happen for you and what role did it play in all of this in career and your feelings?

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You have a little one, correct, man, I have two. And I'm about to have twins, so I'm about to have four.

[Tony Hale]

How old is your old oldest?

[Penn Badgley]

Sixteen. Youngest about to be five.

[Tony Hale]

Oh, if that five year old wants a, when they see Toy Story 4, if they want a forky voice memo, let me know.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's so sweet.

[Tony Hale]

That's what makes it really fun because at that age, at that five year old age, they think these characters are real. And when they hear Forky or whoever it is say their name, they're just.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, yeah, that's so sweet, Tony.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's so sweet.

[Tony Hale]

Really fun. But how is it influenced, man? It's hard to like. And I wouldn't even just say my, I'd say my family in general, my marriage, my daughter, my wife and I laugh like we don't even really even know who we were when we got married. You know, it's the refining process of marriage and the refining process of being a father. It's so hard and so much joy and you just change. I mean, it's like they're walking tools around you for your refinement. It, you know, but Loy is, her name is Loy and she's named after my wife's brother who passed away. He was, he died in a plane crash. And, and she is so full on her, on her wall, in her room, it says, it says Loy. It says her. There was a sign that says Joy with an L. She's just, it's, she's the best. She's the best. She drives me crazy. How old is she now? She's 19, and I cannot look at old photos or videos when she was little, because it just takes me to the bank. Like, I can't do that. Maybe one day it's too much. But, like, when she was little, I mean, talk about a constant. Oh, this is. I think about. This is when Aresta got canceled. The same month Aresta got canceled, I bought a house. And I had Loyola. And I remember thinking, holy shit. Like, how is this gonna work out?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

And she was such a gift in so many ways, but she was a focus. Like, I had no idea. We actually had to maybe sell our house, like, two times in my career and. But, you know, after. During Loy's younger years and. But having that focus of, like, I gotta keep this baby alive. My wife and I, we gotta keep her alive, you know? And, like, what are we gonna do today? And when it gets down to very simple forms. What a gift. And it just. It forced me to get out of my head and to get out of the anxieties of career and all that other life. She was little, and then lately, she's just. Her and I are gonna go to the Beyonce concert and.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, my gosh. So fun.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah. And we're gonna. We got our outfits for Cowboy Carter. Oh, my God. I love that she's like. She's so fun to hang out with. And my. It's funny. Cause, like, my wife and I have very different relationships with, like, she always calls my wife. Like, she calls my wife, like, twice a day and, you know, tells them everything. And when they're with me, we're like, she'll send pictures and call. But it's like, we have different. And I love that. I love that she has a bond with Martell, who's my wife, that, you know, they talk about, you know, other stuff. And then with me, it's like, let's go to concerts, and then, like, we'll go out for dinner and just joke. And it's just. It's different, you know? So all that to say it's morphed and it'll continue to morph, you know?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. Wow. So sweet.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

One of my friends. I was so nervous to make the decision to have a child. I was like, I kind of wish I would just. It would just happen accidentally so that if. If it was a terrible thing, then I could say I didn't make the decision myself and I didn't put myself in this position. I was so nervous about, like, not having enough time for creative pursuits and stuff like that. And I was talking To a friend of mine who had a kid already and was pregnant, and she said, she's like, I think babies bring blessings. And she. I think she meant, like, not just in, like, a mystical sense, although I think that's probably true, too. But, like, you're saying, like, renewed sense of focus, new sense of priorities. Like, very easy to figure out what your priorities are in a way that it probably wasn't before. I just feel like there's all these practical. Practical ways that a baby kind of.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Pushes you forward and. And brings things together in your life.

[Tony Hale]

It's wild how you see it in hindsight. Be like, how old's your little one?

[Sophie Ansari]

She's only 18 months old. She's still a little. Oh, yeah.

[Tony Hale]

I do see. I do. I do see a baby. And I'm like, baby. And my wife not grab these random babies, man. Are just little healing. I mean, it's like you just hold a baby and it's like, well, I'm just going to give you a check for, you know, $150 for that therapy, you know? It's so magical, man. Yeah, I remember this.

[Penn Badgley]

Tell us a little bit about. About, you know, when and how developing children's content became important for you.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah, I mean, I'd love to be able to say that. Like, oh, I really wanted to move the children of the world, but it happened. Really, it was okay. So the book, Archibald's the Next Big thing, that there was a show after that. It came from this arrested development experience that I talked about, this life lesson where this chicken gets a card in the mail that says, your big thing is here. And he's like, where? And he goes on all these adventures, and then he's like, I gotta get to my next big thing, always. And this bee comes along, and the bee's like, you gotta just be, man. You gotta just be. And then in the end, he realizes that the card is right, that your big thing is here. So my big thing right now is talking to you guys. That's my big thing.

[Penn Badgley]

It is pretty big, I would say.

[Tony Hale]

It is big. Thank you. Thank you. And so this gnat, guys, is just all in my face.

[Nava Kavilan]

He's very attractive.

[Tony Hale]

It's the bee.

[Penn Badgley]

It's the bee telling you that this is the biggest moment of your life.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Tony Hale]

But it's. It happened. I didn't have anything to do. I could. I was. I was having a hard time finding work, and I had this lesson from arrested, and I was like. And I talked to my buddies, and I was like, let's just write a book together. And then it was very therapeutic. And then after that, we decided to make it a cartoon. And Archibald took this lesson because he learned about contentment in the book and then in the show, he sees everything like it's his big thing. So he's the most. He sees the best in everything and everyone. And I tell you, this chicken for five years was just like my guru. I was just like Archibald, you know, because I just. I just love that chicken and continue to. No.

[Penn Badgley]

That's so beautiful.

[Sophie Ansari]

I want to ask you just one question about your podcast extraordinarians.

[Tony Hale]

Oh, yeah, you do?

[Sophie Ansari]

I was listening last night, and what I loved about it was, you know, there's so many shows, ours included, that are talking to people that are well known, but I think, at least from what I can tell, you're talking to regular extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, which I really love and crave in a lot of podcasts. So I'm curious, out of all the people you've spoken to so far, because it's only just started, who's the most extraordinary extraordinarian? What did they do?

[Tony Hale]

Oh, man.

[Penn Badgley]

You're asking him to rate extraordinariness. Sophie, that's so unkind.

[Sophie Ansari]

Or just like, tell us about an off the wall kind of person.

[Tony Hale]

The best extraordinarian was there was. I mean, to your point, there's just. Most of them have broken some kind of Guinness record or done something really. Like there's one guy who slacklined between two hot air balloons, and I don't think his has aired yet. And it's just. All I want to do is just be like, get us into your mind. Like, where do you, as a person who struggles with anxiety, like you are facing what seems like death every day? And this is. We were talking to another woman who is. She got the Guinness record for hair hanging. So she hung from her hair for a certain number of. I think it was like 20 minutes. And she's just talking about how the pain and all this kind of stuff. But then at the same time, she's like, would tell us about her community and a lot of these people's communities and how much they love life. They just love life. And I was like, I think it's fascinating that you love life so much. And then there's this part of you that also puts yourself very close to death, you know, all the time. And they say just how they work together, how when you do that, it just makes you appreciate life over and over and over.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Tony Hale]

I never Thought about that, but it's just really a chance. Like, there's this one girl who's so great. She was the National. She won the most puns, and she was precious and so full of life, and she.

[Penn Badgley]

Wait, I'm sorry. What does that mean?

[Tony Hale]

Like, a pun? If, like. I mean, I'm not even a giveaway.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I know what a pun is. I mean, I'm just. I guess what I'm saying is, like, what Champion? But, like, what in the.

[Tony Hale]

In the most.

[Penn Badgley]

In the smallest amount of time or.

[Tony Hale]

So there was. Yeah. So there was, like, these competitions, and there's a topic, and it's kind of like Pitch Perfect where they do riff offs, and it's kind of like pun offs, and so they go back and forth with the topic and see how many puns you can come up with.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, okay.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's like freestyling Tony so sweetly explaining to Pen Badgley what a pun.

[Tony Hale]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Without being like, wow, this idiot.

[Tony Hale]

My.

[Sophie Ansari]

My brother called me while I was listening to that episode, and I. I have this little, like, cyst on my eyelid that I've been trying to get rid of. And one of the ways you get rid of it is just like a hot compress on your eyes. So when he called me, I was listening to the podcast with this thing on my eyes, and he thought I was sleeping because it looks like an eye patch. And I just told him, oh, no, I have this cyst. And he's said something like, oh, my little sister. And he made me. He was like, do. You didn't catch my pun? And I was like, you have no idea how funny this is, but I'm listening to a podcast about the pun champion.

[Tony Hale]

That's so good. I love it. And she was the fascinating thing to her. Of course, I can't remember her name. She was. But from a very young age, someone would say a word, and she would just have this grid in her mind of all, like, different words would pop up out of this word.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Tony Hale]

And then she's also a songwriter, so made songwriting very, you know, natural for her. And just like all these people I would never, ever run, maybe, but run across in life and just wanting to. One guy, how many pencils he stuck in his beard. Another one, he drank. He. He drank the most hot sauce. Drank the most hot sauce in this competition.

[Penn Badgley]

That sounds rough.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm just thinking about his esophagus gone.

[Tony Hale]

We were like. But he's so passionate about it. And then I feel like.

[Penn Badgley]

I feel like he deserves two records One which is for the drinking and the second for everything that has to.

[Tony Hale]

Happen after he drinks it and ask all those questions like he would lay on a concrete floor after he was done because it was cold.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh my goodness.

[Tony Hale]

I mean this is fascinating. Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Tony Hale]

It's fun to be with Kristen Shaw and Matt Oberg who are really good friends of mine and oh, I love them. Yeah. Kristen is just the best and so is Matt. Matt was on Veep. Matt was Buddy Calhoun on Veep.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Tony Hale]

He was the southern like boyfriend of Anna Klein Chomsky.

[Nava Kavilan]

So fun.

[Penn Badgley]

We would love to talk so much longer but of course this, we, we, we, we have to end and we have a final question with which we do that. If you could go back to 12 year old Tony, what would you say or do if anything?

[Tony Hale]

What would I say or do? Let me think a minute. I think I would be very simple in addition to saying hey, because I give a lot of power to fame, which the core of fame, not to go off on a tangent, is everybody wants to be known and people look at the more famous you are, the more known you are. When actuality I think it's actually just the opposite sometimes. But I would say your value where you are is the exact value if you ever do have success. And then I would just simply say it's going to be okay. Okay. Because I think that's what I like to hear when someone, when I'm going through something and just someone says, hey, you know what, man, it's going to be okay. It's just like immediate, you know, it's. There's something really powerful about that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you, Tony.

[Nava Kavilan]

Thank you, Tony.

[Penn Badgley]

It was such a joy to have you.

[Nava Kavilan]

So nice to meet you, Tony. You have, you have the sweetest smile. I just have to say every time you smile, I was like, oh, it's like, it just like makes you feel happy.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's very sweet.

[Tony Hale]

Nice. I thought I needed to whiten my teeth, so maybe I don't.

[Nava Kavilan]

No. Yes, you're good.

[Tony Hale]

You're perfect.

[Sophie Ansari]

Good for another six months.

[Nava Kavilan]

You can watch sketch in theaters now and you can follow Tony online@MrTonyHale.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips agency. If you haven't subscribed to La Manada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcast ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all.

[Tony Hale]

Bye.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's easy to feel helpless these days. So take a break from the bad news and hear from people who are doing good things to address big problems.

[Sophie Ansari]

We care about abortion access. We care about slowing down, reversing climate change.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's the approach we need to these.

[Tony Hale]

Long term systemic problems.

[Nava Kavilan]

We need the fixers. Feel empowered to take action. Listen to good things from Laminata Media. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie Ansari]

Hi, I'm Erica Mahoney. You don't know me, but you know.

[Nava Kavilan]

A version of my story. Because by now we've all felt the.

[Sophie Ansari]

Impact of senseless gun violence.

[Tony Hale]

I think a stray bullet, it flew past me because I hear the it.

[Nava Kavilan]

Was that horrible feeling of dread.

[Sophie Ansari]

Something's wrong. Four years ago, my dad was killed in a mass shooting. My podcast, Senseless is about moving forward after the unthinkable. Senseless From Lemonada Media, premiering June 17.