YOU Finale Rewatch (with Lee Toland Krieger), pt 1

Summary

Podcrushed Episode Summary: YOU Finale Rewatch (with Lee Toland Krieger), pt 1

Podcast Title: Podcrushed
Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Hasan Minhaj
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Episode Length: Approximately 19 minutes (content before advertisements)

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Introduction

In the season finale rewatch of YOU, hosted by Penn Badgley alongside Nava Kavelin and Sophie Ansari, the conversation delves deep into the intricacies of the final episode directed by Lee Toland Krieger. Joined by special guest Hasan Minhaj, the hosts aim to unravel the layers of heartbreak, anxiety, and self-discovery that encapsulate the essence of teenage experiences—a central theme of Podcrushed.

Penn Badgley sets the stage by expressing enthusiasm for dissecting the finale, highlighting its status as a two-part episode due to the abundance of "good, juicy content" (01:25). The hosts collectively agree on the episode's exceptional quality, with Nava sharing her personal excitement and initial reaction upon screening the finale solo (02:00).

Setting the Scene: Filming Insights

The discussion swiftly transitions to behind-the-scenes insights provided by guest Hasan Minhaj, who offers a detailed breakdown of the episode's structure. He describes the finale as a "road movie" intertwined with elements of horror, creating a dual-narrative experience that maintains tension and engagement throughout (03:48).

Hasan Minhaj praises the collaborative dynamic between actor Penn Badgley and director Lee Toland Krieger, emphasizing their creative synchronicity and the spontaneous humor that surfaced during filming, even amidst dark and intense scenes (05:37). This harmonious relationship, according to Minhaj, contributed significantly to the episode's success, allowing for a blend of levity and gravity that enriched the storytelling.

Character Evolution: Bronte's Ascendancy

A focal point of the discussion revolves around the character Bronte Young, portrayed by Matty. The hosts explore Bronte's transformation into the "avatar of the audience," symbolizing the collective psyche and moral compass of viewers (09:16). This evolution marks a pivotal shift from Joe Goldberg's perspective, positioning Bronte as the central force seeking accountability and resolution for Joe's actions.

Penn Badgley highlights the narrative shift where Bronte begins to gain her own voiceover, a departure from Joe's dominance as the narrator. This change signifies a deeper deconstruction of Joe's character, allowing Bronte to utilize his previously employed narrative devices against him, thereby leveling the moral playing field (12:18).

Sophie Ansari adds nuance to Bronte's character by emphasizing her internal conflict—her lingering feelings for Joe juxtaposed with her awareness of his flaws. This duality creates a complex emotional landscape that resonates with listeners, fostering a deeper connection to Bronte's journey (13:09).

Thematic Exploration: Power and Vulnerability

The hosts delve into the themes of power dynamics and vulnerability, particularly focusing on the intimate and confrontational moments between Bronte and Joe. Hasan Minhaj elucidates how Bronte's calculated maneuvers to ensnare Joe are layered with genuine emotions, reflecting the intricate balance between seeking justice and grappling with residual affection (10:03).

A poignant moment discussed is Bronte's line, "How could I love you knowing what I knew?" This quote encapsulates the essence of the episode's emotional tension, portraying Bronte's struggle to reconcile her feelings with the harrowing truths about Joe's character (09:27).

Penn Badgley concurs, noting that the episode effectively taps into broader societal issues such as the plight of women and abuse, thereby elevating the personal narrative to a more universal commentary (12:19).

Production Mastery: Technical and Creative Choices

The conversation shifts to the technical aspects of filming the finale, where Hasan Minhaj and Penn Badgley discuss the challenges and creative decisions that shaped the episode's distinctive feel. Minhaj shares anecdotes about the complex setups required for specific scenes, such as the car sequences and underwater shots, highlighting the meticulous planning and resource allocation that went into production (05:37; 26:00).

Penn Badgley provides insight into the physical demands placed on actors, referencing his own experience filming underwater scenes and the stringent safety protocols that were necessary. This transparency underscores the commitment to authenticity and the lengths to which the production team went to ensure high-quality storytelling (30:34).

The hosts also touch upon the collaborative efforts with editors like Jaron Lopez, whose expertise in cutting the pilot and finale episodes contributed to the seamless narrative flow and heightened tension (25:35).

Notable Quotes and Moments

Throughout the discussion, several notable quotes encapsulate the episode's themes and character motivations:

• Nava Kavelin: "I just loved it. Congratulations to both of you." (02:22)

• Matty (Bronte): "How could I love you knowing what I knew?" (09:27)

• Matty (Bronte): "How do I give you the ending you deserve?" (10:03)

• Penn Badgley: "Joe is not going to, like, reassume the mantle of the narrator. He is being finally deconstructed." (12:18)

• Matty (Bronte): "Love is just stronger and you weaponize it." (15:28)

These quotes highlight the emotional and psychological depth of the characters, particularly Bronte's strategic and emotional journey towards holding Joe accountable.

Audience Engagement and Emotional Resonance

The hosts emphasize the episode's ability to resonate with the audience by presenting a morally complex narrative where the traditionally central character, Joe, is confronted by an equally compelling and morally upright protagonist, Bronte. This dynamic invites listeners to reassess their allegiances and empathies, fostering a more engaged and reflective audience experience.

Sophie Ansari shares her initial skepticism about the finale's ability to provide closure, only to be pleasantly surprised by its satisfying and emotionally charged conclusion. This sentiment echoes the broader listener experience, validating the episode's impact and effectiveness (13:09).

Hasan Minhaj further explores the psychological dimensions of Bronte's character, noting the internal struggle between her objective to capture Joe and her residual feelings, which adds layers of complexity to her motivations and actions (14:44).

Conclusion and Tease for Part Two

As the discussion approaches the end of the 19-minute content segment, the hosts build anticipation for the second part of the finale rewatch. They provide tantalizing hints about pivotal scenes and deeper character explorations that await listeners in the upcoming episode.

Penn Badgley underscores the significance of the final scene's location—the bedroom—as the true battleground where Joe's vulnerabilities are exposed, and Bronte's intentions come to fruition. This setting serves as a metaphorical cage, representing the confined and transparent space where Joe's facade begins to crumble (40:05).

The hosts conclude with a blend of humor and seriousness, reflecting on the collaborative efforts and the emotional investments made during the episode's production. Sophie Ansari and Hasan Minhaj contribute to the lighthearted banter, balancing the intense thematic discussions with personable commentary (38:08; 39:05).

Listeners are encouraged to stay tuned for Part 2 of the finale rewatch, where deeper analyses and revelations will be explored, promising an even more comprehensive dissection of one of the series' most crucial episodes.

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Notable Timestamps for Reference:

• 01:25: Introduction to the finale rewatch.
• 02:00: Nava Kavelin shares initial reactions to the finale.
• 03:48: Hasan Minhaj describes the episode's dual narrative structure.
• 05:37: Discussion on the collaborative dynamic between host and director.
• 09:16: Bronte's evolution into the audience's avatar.
• 10:03: Exploration of Bronte's motivations and emotional conflict.
• 12:18: Narrative shift from Joe to Bronte's perspective.
• 13:09: Sophie Ansari on Bronte's complex emotions.
• 15:28: Bronte's internal struggle and strategic maneuvers.
• 25:35: Insight into the episode's editing process.
• 30:34: Penn Badgley's experience with intense filming scenes.
• 40:05: Significance of the bedroom setting in the finale.

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Final Thoughts

The YOU Finale Rewatch (with Lee Toland Krieger), pt 1 episode of Podcrushed offers an in-depth and nuanced analysis of the series' culminating events. Through candid discussions, behind-the-scenes insights, and thoughtful character examinations, Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari, and Hasan Minhaj provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the finale's profound impact. The episode not only celebrates the show's intricate storytelling but also invites the audience to engage critically with its themes of power, vulnerability, and redemption.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where the hosts will continue their exploration, uncovering further layers and offering exclusive perspectives on the finale's most pivotal moments.

Transcript

[Nava Kavilan]

Lemonade.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was trying to give you guys. Okay. Like when we rock from Joe to Maddie, happy, happy to Rack to Maddie, Happy, sad, happy, sad. That's generally how I direct, right? Happy, happy, sad, sad.

[Penn Badgley]

More of that, more happy, less of that. Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava Kavilan]

And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been your middle school besties, which means we.

[Penn Badgley]

Love you so much, but we're also deeply threatened by you. Hello. Hello and welcome. I welcome you and you. And even you. Not you. These are my co hosts, Nava, Kavlan, Sophie, and. Sorry. And the newest member.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So glad to be joining you guys.

[Penn Badgley]

Back by popular demand. What we are doing here is. Wait, what are we doing here? We are doing the glorious finale of my show. You. It's all of our show. It's public domain at this point. We're going to do a two parter because there's just so much good, juicy content. And that's what you need. You need content like this just constantly, no matter what you're doing. If you have content on a big screen, have it on a small screen right here. And an iPad right here. No books. We don't want any talking, thinking, or books. Music is even questionable.

[Sophie Ansari]

Definitely not ours.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So let's just get started. We're gonna start with the. We're not going through the whole season. We're gonna. We're only doing the last episode because it is quite possibly. I mean, well, Lee would be biased because he directed. He directed the final episode. It may be. I think we should say that it is the best episode of the whole series.

[Sophie Ansari]

Nava and I aren't biased, and that's what we say.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, they want to not like it. Actually, No, I think it is.

[Hasan Minhaj]

They're rooting against it.

[Nava Kavilan]

I think it is the best episode of the whole series. And I previously felt that way about the Phenomen finale of season three. And I really didn't think anything would top that for me. And I just think this finale is spectacular. We got to watch it ahead of time to screen it. And that was a little bit of a tragedy because I had to watch it by myself. And I was freaking out and I was like, I'm not allowed to text anyone about how good this is. And it's so good. I was like, screaming in my living room. It was so good. I just loved it. Congratulations to both of you.

[Sophie Ansari]

It really is incredible.

[Penn Badgley]

Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thanks, guys.

[Penn Badgley]

Very cool. Stop, Stop. Let's just let's just get to it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm Hassan Minhaj, and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy?

[Penn Badgley]

Outrageous.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Parenting expert Dr. Becky. How do you skip consequences without raising a cycle?

[Nava Kavilan]

That's a good question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know. From Lemonada Media, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

Hi, everyone. I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie O'Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nava Kavilan]

Before we jump in with a clip, can you set the scene? Like, where did you film this? How is this different from other episodes? Because it felt pretty different. Was the scope, you know, the budget different? Kind of paint the picture for us.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, Lee, maybe you're.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'll just. I'll tee it up a little bit, and then, I mean, my memory's already.

[Penn Badgley]

A little foggy, but you gotta make it snappy, though.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Snappy's gonna be podcast. This episode is kind of a road movie. You've got. Joe and Bronte are on the road. They're on the land. They're in a car, Joe's car, and they're making their way to the Canadian border. So the first half of the episode is a sort of road movie. The two of them, in theory, sort of running from the law. And then the second half of the episode is what I would call like a monster in the house story or a horror movie, which is what Jo is, the monster in the house. And that was, for me, just a ton of fun because it really is just this cat and mouse tete a tete between the two of you, and it becomes this just very fun taut chamber piece with the two. But so it was sort of like two little episodes within the episode. And obviously you have a point of view shift as well, where we're gonna get into Bronte's head and have Bronte's point of view as well, which I think is really sort of helpful in sort of the evolution of this particular season. But that's how I would describe. I've never laughed as hard on set as I did making this episode, which is bizarre. We're not making a comedy. We're making something quite dark. And obviously it goes to a very dark place. And I think it speaks to. And I tell this to everybody. One of, if not the best working relationship I've had with an actor has been with you. That we are just very, I think, creatively in sync, but also, dare I say, kind of enjoy working together. At least I do. I don't want to speak for you. I don't want to speak for you, but I would say we started laughing about so many things, so many running jokes from the pilot, and I'm sure everybody skipped that episode because they saw I was the guest and they're like, I'm gonna get to Eddie Redmayne and Felicity Jones, whoever this, you know, gargoyle is.

[Penn Badgley]

You look normally behind Eddie Redmayne and Felicity Jones.

[Nava Kavilan]

Do I?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do I. I usually get. Who do I normally get? I don't know, some kind of troll looking. But in all serious, we laugh so hard that we talked about this, I think, a little bit last time. Matty, who plays Bronte, who's so great in this episode, you know, occasionally would look at us like, hey, guys, can.

[Penn Badgley]

We get back to work? You know, and we're like, we've been here. We've been here the entire time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But it was. It was a blast. And I do think, and we'll talk about this too. The, the. The level of work that Jason Sokoloff and Marco Siega did to get us to this episode, where we had literally as many days as we wanted, it was crazy. As many resources. I mean, I never had it in my career. I probably will never have it again.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, maybe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I really owe it to them. And that that made, I think, this episode. I was telling Nava before we started, I generally sort of hate stuff I work on and, you know, sort of have a hard time watching it.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm generally unfamiliar with that relationship. What you need to do is you need to lean in, you need to dig in and love what you do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I love. I love this episode. I do. I do love this episode. So I do have a question, Lee.

[Nava Kavilan]

Given that you did have more days and more budget, what was the decision to keep the length at 52 minutes, I think, and not make it longer?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, I'm always one of, like, if it can be shorter, it probably should be. Do you know what I mean?

[Nava Kavilan]

So the opposite of this podcast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, it's definitely the opposite of this podcast? No, I think. Well, number one, the episode that Michael Foley wrote, which is dynamite and obviously teed us up for success, wasn't it.

[Penn Badgley]

Michael and Justin or Michael and.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, Michael and Neil. Sorry. Neil. So sorry. Of course, Michael and Neil. I mean, I really mean it when I say I think they just absolutely. I think writing a final. Now that I've done it has to be harder than writing a pilot, wrapping up five seasons of mythology and character, all the payoffs that you want to do. They just absolutely hit a grand slam with this in every respect. And so we were sort of teed up for success. But part of the success, I think, of what the script they wrote is that it was for all the things they had to do. Really efficient and really economical. Have you guys heard. I'm digress for one second. Have you heard? I've heard Seth Rogan and Evan Goldberg. I don't know those guys. Huge fans, been watching the studio. Love it. Brilliant. If you have. Now, it's so. It's first few episodes. It's so good. I've heard they have a policy they call undy a hundy for a feature under 100 minutes is like, you know, and I think in the age of, like, movies getting longer.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my goodness, are they long?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. And. And. And the theatrical experience being really marginalized and jeopardized, that lean and mean is the way to go. And so I think we, you know, there was not a desire to sort of make this feel bloated. Like, I wanted it to feel super propulsive. And I think. I think it does.

[Nava Kavilan]

It does. Every second counts.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah. It's incredible.

[Penn Badgley]

And now what we're going to show you is a little snippet of the first scene, the opening scene, which poses actually the question that Michael and Neil had to answer, that we all had to answer in our own way. The hardest answer, you know, what is the ending that Joe Goldberg deserves? The Internet is a Twitter with. With. With. With all its ideas and has been since the show came out. And really, I think the question all along has been, like, what? You know, what is enough? Jail, death. Those. They almost seem too simple. They seem. They seem. They don't seem fitting. So this entire episode is, I think, Bronte becoming. If it hasn't already been clear, she is now fully the avatar of the audience. Right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And, like. And wondering, what do we do with this man?

[Sophie Ansari]

Enjoy.

[Matty]

How could I love you knowing what I knew? What did you do to Beck? And the biggest question of all.

[Penn Badgley]

It's beautiful, isn't it.

[Matty]

How do I give you the ending you deserve?

[Hasan Minhaj]

What's fun about the. The first half of this episode and this moment in particular is we're getting Bronte's point of view. And not only do we get in her point of view, we start to understand that, oh, she's not on the run with Joe. She's been playing the long game to figure out how to ensnare him and make it count. You know, it's a little bit of the sort of the Robert Durst question, right. If you watch the Jinx.

[Penn Badgley]

The Jinx, yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Did he also kill his wife?

[Hasan Minhaj]

His first wife?

[Penn Badgley]

More than that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. There was sort of a long list. His. His first. His first wife, his best friend, and then this poor guy in Texas.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, my God.

[Penn Badgley]

But I think, why Weren't the other ones poor Lee?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no, they're all poor people.

[Penn Badgley]

All, you know, this poor, poor guy. The woman deserved it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, all very unfortunate to cross paths with. With Robert Durst. But I think, you know, I think the takeaway for me, at least, and a lot of people is sort of, you know, the why. And then Kathy, his first wife, is still lingering. Like, where is she? She's never been found. And I think that I sort of. I thought about that when we were making this episode as it relates. Like, Kathy Beck is Kathy for us, for those of you that have seen the Jinx and know that very sad story. And so I think we do, to your point, Pen, want to see Bronte pull this information out of him, extract that. And that feels to me way more satisfying than just, you know, shooting him dead or calling the cops and seeing him carted away.

[Penn Badgley]

And I think what. Is what started happening, I think, in episode six, officially, it may have happened a little bit before, I can't recall, but, you know, she starts to have her own voiceover. And that has happened. It's happened in moments for female protagonists in this show, but never to the degree at all that it does in this episode, because there's nothing I'm. Joe is not going to, like, reassume the mantle of the narrator. He is being finally deconstructed. And he. He. Every. Every device that he's used is essentially now going to be used against him and then taken from him. So. Which is. I think it's. It's really interesting and satisfying and fun and worthwhile because it's.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's.

[Penn Badgley]

It's just happening on so many levels. You know, it's happening on like a kind of far atipop culture level, and it's happening at a really deep level where you're thinking about, like, you know, the plight of women and abuse and all this stuff. So I don't know. I think the fact that this is the beginning of her becoming the one you want to see, actually, I think the goal of this episode was and is. And I think it's achieved, at least to some great degree, that by the end, you're like, yeah. And I'm not meaning this as, like, the, you know, sort of comic aside as I do. I think by the end of this, you do think, like. Yeah, I think I am tired of Jo and I want more of her or just someone else.

[Sophie Ansari]

I think that's what makes her so interest, her character so interesting for this role because she's still. She's, like, admitting to everybody and to herself that she still has this, like, thing.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, she loves him in a way.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah. Like, she asked that question, like, how could I love you knowing what I knew? And that's what the audience feels, too. Or that's what I felt. At least I was telling Nava. I was so nervous for the finale because I was like, I don't think anything could satisfy me because I still have this, like. I hate to admit it, but, like, a. Like, a little, like, joe, I feel for you, or, like, I want to see you get out of this somehow. So I really didn't think anything would be satisfying. It was so satisfying. I think that's because she admits, like, she feels that way, too, a little bit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, and we get. Later in the episode, we have this great scene. We'll talk about it in the boat, where even through this hidden agenda of getting him, he's doing things that are kind of making her have, you know, feel for him. And she has to sort of remind herself, like, how is it? And sort of saying to herself and the audience, the love is just a very strong thing that you make. You overlook a lot of bad. Right. So, no, it's a fun, like, push and pull for her to play with. And what I'll say, Nava, just in that little moment of her walking up to Jo, I think Maddie does such a great job as sort of looking at Jo with these loving eyes. Cause she's, you know, she's playing the part of loving partner. Right. And at the same time, we're seeing behind the eyes this sort of, like, you know, I've got to do this hard thing, and I love this person, and I'm a little scared of him. Like, there's a lot going on and I think Maddie pulls it off pretty beautifully.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, she really did. She had a lot to do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Fuck.

[Penn Badgley]

Here you go.

[Matty]

Thanks.

[Penn Badgley]

Hey. Do you need help?

[Matty]

Do I. This could all be over. What do you mean? I'm fine. But the second I point a finger, you run. I don't get answers. And no one will know what you really are. I guess my. My eyes are bigger than my arms.

[Penn Badgley]

Where you headed? Glamping with the gals?

[Matty]

Yeah, Glamping with the gals.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, be careful out there. A lot of predators. Bears.

[Matty]

Right. Got it. Thanks.

[Penn Badgley]

You okay?

[Matty]

Yeah. He didn't recognize me or anything.

[Penn Badgley]

You're shaking.

[Matty]

Oh, adrenaline.

[Penn Badgley]

Be careful.

[Matty]

You're gonna get me addicted to this Bonnie and Clyde shit.

[Penn Badgley]

You astonish me more every day.

[Sophie Ansari]

Do you think Joe at that point knows, like, to me, that in that sequence, he's like, I'm suspicious of you. I'm suspecting you?

[Penn Badgley]

I think it's just a device. Yeah, it's just a device. And he is actually. I mean, if you look at my face, just acting brilliantly. What I'm doing is. I mean, because to me, it is just like I'm. You know, it's funny with a device like that, you don't need to do anything more than just like, you know what? Just like, say it, ground it, whatever, just throw it away. Because that's for the audience. That's for the construction of the thing. You know, it's like that's just part of the scaffoldings. It has to be there. And you have to have that moment of suspense. It's really actually for her because look at what she did. She had way more to do. And the audience has a lot to start to see in her. All I had to do was just keep doing that terrible Joe shit where it's like. He's just so technically tone deaf. And he's just like, I'm gonna give you the slightest little smile. I remember we were. We were driving just like, getting, you know, just shots of us driving that you would need to use at some point. You weren't sure when some of it was used there where, you know, and we're on a walkie. And sometimes Lee will give. If the camera's on Matty, it's like, all right, now, Maddie, now you have to. You know, you're just giving us what we need to look like so you can use it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it was pretty prescriptive and probably.

[Penn Badgley]

Which is fine. It happens in everything. Sure. I mean, it's not like, you know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, it was hard. I mean, that little driving piece in particular, again, like the opening scene, it's sort of. He's looking at her, in love with her, and you're meant to feel like if you're from Joe's perspective, she's looking back at him with loving eyes. But then as the camera shifts and we shift to her perspective, we see that those loving eyes are a facade. And it's sort of like there's this fear, the undercurrent of fear under it. And so. And there's really not much, if any dialogue there. So I did, I was trying to give you guys. Okay, like when we rack from Joe to Maddie, happy, happy. To rack to Maddie, happy, sad, happy, sad. That's generally how I direct, right? Happy, happy, sad, more happy, less of that. But yeah, that whistles involved. That's right. That's right. No, but those little things are. Yeah, more. Way more technical and probably not fun in that sort of free actor thing that we're going to get into later. And I'm, I'm using. You guys probably feel a little bit more like props or like we're shooting a commercial or something.

[Penn Badgley]

But no, that, that's where, that's where. That's where. I remember when we were doing that, there were some points where I had to smile and look at her so much. I. I was just sort of laughing to myself, like, just knowing that it would be. Need to be used somewhere and I wouldn't be sure where. But just being like, man, Joe is just tone deaf till the grave. Just has no idea what's going on.

[Nava Kavilan]

Stick around, we'll be right back.

[Penn Badgley]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the Mill Food Recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never, ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden and add to your compost feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Sophie Ansari]

Spring is all about fresh starts and growth. What better time to start learning a new language, right? With Rosetta Stone? Of course, you can make real progress with Rosetta Stone in a way that feels natural and engaging. Rosetta Stone has been the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. I actually remember my dad buying Rosetta Stone, trying to learn. I think it was Spanish. They offer an immersive and effective approach that helps you absorb and retain a new language naturally on desktop and mobile, whenever and wherever it fits your lifestyle. One of the things I would love to do this spring and summer is to be able to travel more confidently and connect with locals in a meaningful way. I always wanted to explore somewhere in South America. I've never been to South America and I have always wanted to go. I don't know if this spring is the time that that's going to happen, but if I want to go, I need to start preparing and brushing up on my Spanish. As I've been saying for many, many months, Rosetta Stone is helping me build the foundation that I need to actually talk to people. Not just to get by, but to actually engage in a meaningful conversation. It feels like I could be opening a door to a whole new world. Thanks to Rosetta Stone. They immerse you in your new language naturally, helping you think and communicate with confidence. There are no English translations, so you truly learn to speak, listen and think in your chosen language. With 30 years of experience, millions of users, and 25 languages offered, Rosetta Stone is the Go to Language Learning solution. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. PodCrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit Rosetta Stone.com podcrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com podcast and start learning today.

[Nava Kavilan]

All right, next clip.

[Matty]

Why am I up here?

[Penn Badgley]

So I can see you. I told you I'd put you at the center of the universe.

[Matty]

What is wrong with me that I know who you are and part of me can still feel this good? But who doesn't love to be loved? More than justice, more than reality, Love is just stronger and you weaponize it. Is this how good Beck felt before you killed her? Because with you, love has a price. This is where it was headed the whole time. Peak Romance.

[Sophie Ansari]

Such a good song. Such a good moment.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's such a good moment.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Good moment. Editors crushed it. Jaron Lopez, who cut co. Cut the pilot, cut this episode and did a killer job. Here's a few things I remember from that and then I'll let you jump in. We're shooting on this little pond, which is a generous.

[Penn Badgley]

It was a comically small, shallow pond that was definitely man made and full of goose shit.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, you definitely can't tell. I couldn't.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But you know, for a seemingly very simple little scene, right, you know, two people on a boat and, you know, talking and it's one of these things where, you know, unless you sort of have seen the sausage get made, it was like you and back in the subway platform should be pretty straightforward. But getting, you know, those are stunt doubles out on the lake to do that safely, you've got underwater safety, you've got, you know, it's. It, you know, it's three in the morning or whatever. I remember being just like, why was.

[Nava Kavilan]

It three in the morning?

[Hasan Minhaj]

We were shooting in the middle of the summer. Did not have a lot of nighttime. We had other work to do that night. And we're behind as usual.

[Penn Badgley]

You put all that extra time and money.

[Hasan Minhaj]

All that extra time and money still behind. No, but we started with the coverage, right? We started with your coverage and Matty's coverage where we were just off the edge of that little pier and it was off a crane and it was fine. But I really love this because for me, as we discussed, first half of the episode is a road movie, but also a romance. You know what I mean? You want to sort of fall in love with them together and you know, to your point, kind of in that weird. Patricia Highsmith, Tom Ripley, Dickie Greenleaf, kind of. You want Tom to get away with it. You know what I mean? Even though you.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Just. Cause you also. I mean, I'm thinking of the, you know, the viewer here, how we all just sort of. We want not only Joe, but like you said, kind of any. Anybody you're watching. Yeah, who is the central character? You kind of want them to get away because you're like, I just.

[Sophie Ansari]

You don't want them worse.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[Penn Badgley]

I. I really do. I really, I really do feel for everybody. And I actually apologize for dragging each and every fan. I apologize profusely. It was wrong of me. I shouldn't be policing anybody's thoughts, emotions, opinions. I'm done.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wait, so the shots where like you see Pen at the bottom of the.

[Penn Badgley]

Boat, that was a stunt double with my face superimposed.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's right. Face replacement.

[Sophie Ansari]

Where were you shooting those you weren't actually on the lake. Where were you?

[Penn Badgley]

No, no, we were.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We were on the lake. It was just, like, one end of the boat was sort of tethered to that little pier which we built.

[Penn Badgley]

And when Matty and I had to get on the boat, the entire crew was, like, quiet.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The actors were boarding.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. On water. And there's, like, police standing by and a scuba. A guy with a scuba mask, like a medic.

[Sophie Ansari]

Were there any incidents? Nobody fell in?

[Penn Badgley]

No, no. Well, I mean, except for when I had to dive in and, you know, so there's. There's all kinds of strangely conflicting kind of thing. But. But I. The re. What I'm trying. The joke I'm trying to make is that it is so funny when there's something where there's, like, any. Any modicum of danger. There are. There are, like, three people who are just profusely not apologetic, but just like, hey, listen, if you need anything, like, I'm your guy. One of them is Tony Guida. Is that how you say his last name?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, our stunt coordinator.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, our stunt coordinator. One of the kindest men.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

On the planet. The best.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And did the pilot with us the first season.

[Penn Badgley]

And a phenomenal stunt coordinator.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

This was one of those things where they come about to step on a boat and he's like, hey, listen, man, you uncomfortable? We're out of here.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I got a van waiting. I got a van waiting.

[Penn Badgley]

And I'm like, you know what, Tony? I really appreciate the concern, but, guys, guys, I'm a grown human, man. I can get onto a boat.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, we do tend to, I think, outsmart ourselves in filmmaking. And I won't get too far into it, but there was a thing where I wanted the camera in the back of the car. And we can't, like. Oh, we can't put an operator back there. It's gotta be, you know, towed or driven by a, you know, teamster. And we go through all this shit, and finally we end up with this insane contraption.

[Penn Badgley]

This insanely elaborate.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Elaborate. Which. I don't even know how to describe it.

[Penn Badgley]

It's like a massive, massive construct.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like a steel construct where the car couldn't turn one. And you turned to me and you went, wouldn't it be just easier if I drove the car? I was like, yep.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it would.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It would have been.

[Penn Badgley]

But because of legal, you can't. Then we lost the shot.

[Sophie Ansari]

Actors can't drive.

[Penn Badgley]

No, no, no. You can, but get. Depending. I'm famously known for not being able to drive. No it was basically like. And this is what I was also trying to make a joke about is like, so, again, the end of the fourth season. Spoiler. If you haven't seen it. You know, I. I spent eight hours underwater.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

In mortal danger. You know, in a situation where I had to film underwater for so long that I was like, I cannot believe they let actors do this. This is insane. You know, but that. That's fine. We'll do that. But then, like, you know, there's just. There's just like, really strange, conflicting, contradictory, sort of, like, protocols. Yeah. And. And this thing was basically like, if. Yeah. I don't even know. Why wasn't I allowed to drive that? Because I was driving the car other times.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I don't want to get into it now because I feel like I'm gonna have some local 600 people call me after this. There's gonna be a Teamster in New York who. I love that. I love working in New York. And I wish we gotta make it easier to shoot there or more affordable, but. Yeah. I don't want a team. Sort of jump me in the Hudson next time I'm working.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Love the Teamsters.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Love you, bro. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Last question. Where were you guys when you shot this?

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is way upstate. Was this Bedford? Technically, Bedford.

[Penn Badgley]

I actually don't even remember.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It was, like, a good hour outside of the city. We way up, and this family had just built this house and had just moved in. And we came and we're like, can we just camp out here for a week?

[Sophie Ansari]

The house is its own character. As soon as they walked in the.

[Nava Kavilan]

House, I was like, I want the house.

[Penn Badgley]

I know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I know. I think it all felt very aspirational.

[Sophie Ansari]

So nice.

[Penn Badgley]

That house had not been lived in yet. It had been built.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And they were about to move in.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And we're like, can we come in and completely fuck up this gorgeous place that you just built?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Miraculously, they said, yes, and thank you to that family.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we'll be right back. Whether your child is struggling with a specific subject, overwhelmed by homework, or asking questions that you, as a parent, are not sure how to answer, you are not alone. And if they're ahead of the curve, coasting through class without feeling challenged, that's just as important to address. Every child learns differently, and personalized support can make all the difference. IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids. It covers math, language arts, science and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way with positive feedback. It's powered by advanced algorithms and gives the right help to each kid, no matter the age or personality. As a former teacher myself, I know how important it can be for kids to have extra support outside of the classroom. In fact, I used IXL in my classroom as well. Like sometimes while I was helping a student with a specific thing, I needed another student to be working on a specific topic or skill and I would print out things from IXL for them to do or they would use IXL on their computer in the classroom. I also would recommend it to families when I was a teacher if they needed extra problems and things to do at home. And I'm so grateful that when my kid is school age that I will have IXL in my arsenal. If your child is struggling, this is a really smart investment that you can make. A single hour of tutoring costs more than a month of IXL and one subscription gets you access across everything pre K to 12th grade. So if you have multiple kids in your home, they can all benefit from using IXL. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the US make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and PodCrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up [e-mail] podcrushed visit ixl.com podcrush to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

[Nava Kavilan]

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[Sophie Ansari]

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[Penn Badgley]

Tell me you want this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Follow me.

[Penn Badgley]

What the.

[Matty]

Tell me how you killed Guinevere Beck.

[Nava Kavilan]

So here there's like a tight act of like. It's an intimate that's about to turn. I don't know if violent, but. Yeah. Tell us sort of what you're managing here.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, this is the. This is the climax of our love story, right? Of our first love story. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And it's not just. I mean, because you're talking about the. You're Talking about. For your work, the final episode.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I don't. I don't think about anything else.

[Penn Badgley]

But it is really. It's the climax of this, you know, quote unquote, the love story part of Joe where we're. And this is so. I'll just say. And we're. We're really gonna get into this in part two. So you gotta stick around for part two. This is like. This is. This is. We're. We're giving you a tease of what we're going to get into. But. But to me. So I actually fought to be in as little clothing as possible for the only time in my life.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

In my life. Because it was, like, weird.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm just. I was thinking about that. I was like, I'm trying to match this with what I've heard from Pen about intimate scene naked the whole time.

[Penn Badgley]

But this is. But this is important.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This was a battle that. This is the only disagreement we had.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes. And I wanted me to put more clothes on. And I was like, no, but you were right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But you were right. I'm not just saying that. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And this is. And this is maybe how we'll just get into part two. Because this is Because. Because part two is actually the most important. This sequence is the most important sequence of the entire series, bar none. Because everybody probably thought, where is Joe going to find his end?

[Nava Kavilan]

So tell us why you wanted to be naked.

[Penn Badgley]

No, I'm telling you. So, so where did. Where. Where would anybody think that we want Joe to end? It's gonna be in a cage, right?

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

No, that's not where he does his worst work. It's in the bedroom. It's in. It's. That's where he is. The. The most unaccounted for as a predator, as a manipulator, as an abuser, as a. As. As. As a completely dishonest person. You know, in the cage, he's actually a little bit like, hey, I'm transparent about who I am.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

It's in the bedroom. Is where is. Is where actually no one has brought him to account. You know what I mean? Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

So this is where we needed to freeze him. We needed to freeze him. You know, if this is a different show and a different time and I was a couple years younger, he should have been naked. But the problem then that would have been there is that we also didn't want Maddie. We didn't want. What's her character's name?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Bronte.

[Penn Badgley]

Bronte. We didn't want her to be in too much Disrobe because she. We didn't want her to be too vulnerable, but we. That's so. So, you know, she's. Because what she's about to do, she's about to take the power potentially, yes, But. But she's doing it in the most vulnerable way. She's doing the thing that, like, you, for the first time ever. For the first time ever, you're like, I don't want them together. This is not consensual. This is so important. You know, this moment is like, oh. Like, this is why all the intimacy scenes in this season were worth it. They were all intentional. We had a lot of discussions about each and every one. They're leading up to this. It's like, this is so critical. We have to show him in intimate, vulnerable, romantic way, sexual way. And we specifically have to not want it. For the first time. We all have to be united in being like, we do not want this. So that, my friends, is why I fought to be in my underwear. Because I just thought it was like, if I'm in a tank top and pants. Which pants?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it was Pantsley. No, no, hold on, hold on. I never fought for pants. My pitch was definitely no pants was the John McClane just. Cause I grew up on Die Hard, and I love Die Hard. And I was thinking, as we get into the episode, the more beat up and bloody and muddy and ripped and burned and everything, it get like in the Die Hard movies, sort of tracking the journey. I always liked that stuff. And there's a gag we do later, which we can talk about, that would have made that a little easier. However, I have no shame in saying this was one where you were absolutely right, because it's really about laying Joe Goldberg bare, like, seeing him at his most vulnerable. And as we're gonna get into sort of laying out his soul, we're gonna, like, really unpack his soul and his psychology, I guess I should say.

[Penn Badgley]

Part two. We got to go. You got to watch it. Part two is out now. Slash, soon, slash.

[Sophie Ansari]

Find it bio link in the where is it?

[Penn Badgley]

Where is it? It's all falling apart.

[Nava Kavilan]

We'll put a link.

[Penn Badgley]

Bye.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at La Manada. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all by. Hey, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who code and moms first. I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife as I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck? Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called midlife from lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nava Kavilan]

Does your office have an evil donut bringer? Do you have a personal canary in a coal mine? Are you guilty of over apologizing? I'm Liz Craft. And I'm Sarah Fain. We're television writers and showrunners and the hosts of Happier in Hollywood, a podcast where we share all the juicy details of our career in television and offer tips and strategies that will help you and us have an even more successful, satisfying and fun career. Whether you're in Hollywood, Dollywood, or somewhere in between. Check out Happier in Hollywood every Thursday from lemonada Media.