Olivia Rodrigo you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love

Summary

Pop Culture Happy Hour — Olivia Rodrigo: "You Seem Pretty Sad For a Girl So in Love"

Air Date: June 17, 2026
Hosts: Stephen Thompson, Hazel Sills (NPR Music Editor), Isabella Gomez Sarmiento (NPR Music Reporter)

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, the panel discusses Olivia Rodrigo’s third album, You Seem Pretty Sad For a Girl So in Love. The conversation covers Rodrigo’s influences, the evolution of her songwriting, notable collaborations (especially with The Cure’s Robert Smith), and the panelists’ reactions to the album's strengths and shortcomings. Expect passionate opinions, a breakdown of standout tracks, and plenty of pop culture context.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Olivia Rodrigo’s Trajectory and New Album

• Rodrigo's Rise: Former Disney Channel star who quickly became a pop superstar. Known for blending Gen Z songwriting with influences from Taylor Swift, Paramore, and now, more explicitly, The Cure and other 80s/90s alt-rock icons.
  — “She kind of emerged pretty fully formed as…a very strong presence, a strong songwriter, a very strong singer and live performer.” (Stephen, 06:05)

General Panel Impressions

• Mixed but Thoughtful Reception:
  • Isabella: Mixed feelings—some standout moments, excitement for Robert Smith’s feature, but found parts too slow, especially some piano-heavy tracks.
    — “It has moments that I will definitely come back to again and again. And...songs that I probably will never listen to again if I can avoid it.” (Isabella, 05:06)
  • Hazel: More negative, feeling the album lost the emotional specificity and angst that made Guts so compelling.
    — “I think that she loses a bit of that specificity on this album to sort of this larger narrative of...being in love, falling out of love.” (Hazel, 05:15)
  • Stephen: The album works for him, admires Rodrigo’s cleverness in splicing influences and bridging Gen Z and Gen X musical languages.
    — “I have always been really, really impressed by...the cleverness of the way that she has managed…to combine Gen Z singer, songwriter, very Taylor Swift influenced pop, with a lot of sounds of like 90s alt rock.” (Stephen, 06:40)

Influences & Notable Collaborations

• The Cure’s Presence: The album directly references The Cure (“Just Like Heaven”), and features Robert Smith on “What’s Wrong with Me.”
  — “She also manages to mix in a little bit of New Order, a little bit of Smashing Pumpkins...not only in the song that we heard that includes Robert Smith but like name-checking the song, Just Like Heaven in the single Drop Dead.” (Stephen, 07:00)
• Generational Bridging: Strong emphasis on how Rodrigo unites Gen Z (and even millennial) pop with Gen X’s alternative rock legacy.

Evolution of Sound and Lyrical Themes

• Shifting Modes: While previous records stressed angst, social anxiety, even body dysmorphia, this album is largely thematic around a single relationship—love, its joy, and heartbreak. — “She is singing about this one relationship and how it has transformed her [and] its demise. And...Sour and Guts just had such a wider scope.” (Hazel, 09:22)
• Desire for Grittier Content: Both Hazel and Isabella missed the “bite and sarcasm” of earlier work, describing parts of this album as too polished or “Claire’s core” (a reference to mall pop and adolescent aesthetics). — “I think there were a lot of moments on this album where it was a little predictable and boring.” (Isabella, 22:50)

Standout Songs & Segments

• “What’s Wrong With Me” (feat. Robert Smith):
  [04:04] Notable for the Robert Smith feature; panelists praise the collaboration, despite some feeling the Cure influence was a bit heavy-handed.
• “Stupid Song”:
  [04:45, 14:50] Divisive. Isabella and Hazel found it slow, but Stephen lauds it as “the best song Taylor Swift has done since Midnights,” and a possible summer hit.
  — “It is massively better than anything on the last two Taylor Swift records.” (Stephen, 14:55) — “Her voice is building in intensity...but even though I don’t love this song, I understood it to potentially be a choice.” (Hazel, 15:34)
• “The Cure”:
  [11:41] Universally recognized as a highlight and possible future direction. The song provides emotional and sonic grandeur and, for Hazel, is the album’s strongest due to its self-realization and critical distance.
  — “It’s not a song that’s…a dig at an ex or something like that…It sounds like I’m hearing her…have this epiphany in real time.” (Hazel, 12:24)
• “Maggots for Brains”:
  [18:03] Hazel singles this out as the track that best marries the album’s “darker aura” to an energetic jangle-pop sound. — “That is the song…where you’re essentially describing yourself as, you know, feeling like a zombie in your body…so yeah, it’s…one of the songs on this album that very successfully completely telegraphs love to me.” (Hazel, 18:15)
• “Begged” & “Honeybee”:
  [20:49] “Begged” praised by Stephen for its choral arrangement and emotional heft; “Honeybee” is less appreciated, seen as too cloying.

Structure, Sequencing, and Storytelling

• Album Structure:
  The record’s bifurcated sequencing is discussed: Side A is “A Girl So In Love,” Side B “You Seem Pretty Sad,” with “The Cure” as the pivot point. — “This record is sort of subtitled where…the first half of the songs are subtitled A Girl so in Love. And the second half of the record is subtitled You Seem Pretty Sad. And The Cure is the song that is the fulcrum.” (Stephen, 13:40)
• Production Backstory:
  Rodrigo and Dan Nigro retrofitted the album’s second half after her relationship ended during the writing process, attempting to inject more sadness to earlier, more earnest love songs. — “I don’t know if they successfully pull off that tweaking. I think that there are a lot of songs in the first half where…they read as very earnest to me, even though I can sense…they are trying to put this, you know, darker level of sadness...” (Hazel, 17:04)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Olivia’s Strengths:
  “I think the way that song has this…kind of careening quality…her emotions are running ahead of her, her voice can’t quite keep up. To me, I think that’s part of its power. I don’t want pop music to sound totally frictionless.”
  — Stephen, on “Stupid Song” and Rodrigo’s vocal technique (16:06)
• On Wanting More Mess:
  “I think I was craving a little more mess. And it all felt a little too tight and like everything was a little bit too contained. I wanted her to go off the rails a little bit more.”
  — Isabella, 22:24
• On Generation Gaps:
  “She does such a great job bridging a generational gap between Gen Z and Gen X and kind of fusing them together in clever ways.”
  — Stephen, 07:33
• On Artistic Growth:
  “When she is in ballad mode...I don’t hear the growth. I think I hear growth when she is making more interesting choices.”
  — Hazel, 19:58

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:31: Panelists join & Olivia Rodrigo’s career introduction
• 04:04: Robert Smith (The Cure) collaboration — “What’s Wrong With Me”
• 04:45: “Stupid Song” bridge discussion
• 07:20: 80s/90s influences & “Just Like Heaven” nod
• 11:41: “The Cure” as a pivotal track; themes of love as not the solution
• 13:40: Album sequencing — first half “In Love,” second half “Pretty Sad”
• 14:50: Stephen’s “Stupid Song” defense
• 18:03: “Maggots for Brains” highlighted
• 20:49: Ballad discussion – “Begged” and “Honeybee”

---

Final Thoughts and Tone

• The panel remained lively, analytical, and fair – gently teasing Stephen’s unabashed Rodrigo fandom.
• General consensus: You Seem Pretty Sad For a Girl So in Love is an ambitious but sometimes uneven album, with clear highlights, impressive sonic expansion, and an evolving artistic perspective. However, some panelists missed the personal, emotionally jagged songwriting of earlier albums.
• Final Joke:
  “That’s the point of this podcast is Stephen has an opinion, invites guests on and at the end of the day we must agree with him.”
  — Hazel, 23:31 (“And we do.” — Isabella)

---

Recommended for:
Pop fans, Olivia Rodrigo listeners curious about her new direction, and listeners interested in the intersection of Gen Z and Gen X pop culture.

Listeners looking for song-by-song breakdowns will find this episode especially satisfying!

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Allianz Travel Insurance Barcelona's beaches heavenly until a jellyfish joins you for a swim. Emergency medical benefits can help take the sting out of travel challenges. Learn more at alianztravelinsurance.com.

[Stephen Thompson]

Olivia Rodrigo's first two albums were massive chart topping hits. Now she's back with a third collection of fizzy, sometimes jagged pop songs about a love that goes amazingly well until it doesn't. I'm Stephen Thompson. Today we are talking about Olivia Rodrigo's new album, you Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl so in Love on Pop Culture Happy hour from NPR.

[Commercial Announcer]

This message is from AT&T with your summer essential the iPhone 17 Pro its center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies range right now at, at and t ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible trade in requires eligible plan terms and restrictions apply subject to change. Visit att.com iPhone for details. This message comes from SAP Concur. Evan Kahnweiser, Chief Product and Strategy Officer at MXGBT, shares why they established a strategic alliance with SAP Concur to create complete a unified travel and expense solution powered by AI.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Customers have been asking for a long time, can we collaborate better with SAP Concur? And so we got to a point where both companies were in a position to sit down and say, how can we solve our existing joint customer problems in a way that allow us to deliver something truly differentiated? Our travelers want a modern, integrated contextual experience to be seamless with the tools that they're using to do other parts of their work journey, whether it's their calendars, their emails, their chats. And they want to make sure that that data is traveling through that journey so that the expense report writes themselves. It's really about making it go from something that takes time and energy to something that provides delight. And once we had that, we knew that we had the beginnings of something incredible.

[Commercial Announcer]

Visit concur.com complete to learn more.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Support for NPR comes from IBM on Smart Talks with IBM host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM.

[Hazel Sills]

Hello.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at ufc, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fight data.

[Alon Cohen]

With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how. Like when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder, that's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That is, until IBM entered the octagon.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Listen to Smart talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts.

[Stephen Thompson]

Joining me today is NPR music editor Hazel Sills. Welcome, Hazel. Hey, it is a pleasure to have you. Also with us is NPR Music reporter Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. Hey, Isabella.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Howdy. Thanks for having me.

[Stephen Thompson]

It is great to have you. So Olivia Rodrigo was a Disney Channel star before pivoting to music full time, but she's been a superstar from virtually the moment she released her first single, driver's License, five years ago. Like her first two albums, Sour and Guts, the new album mixes spiky rock with tender ballads while incorporating influences like Taylor Swift and Paramore. But it also contains several call outs to the Cure, up to and including Rodrigo's first ever featured guest. As the Cure's Robert Smith turns up to sing on the song what's Wrong

[Olivia Rodrigo (singing)]

with Me, I'm not feeling like myself. I'm not feeling like myself. I'm not hiding in love.

[Stephen Thompson]

You seem pretty sad for a girl so in love is out now. Isabella, I'm gonna start with you. What do you think?

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

You know, it's not my favorite Olivia Rodrigo album. I'll say that there were moments that I really liked. I was excited to see Robert Smith on there. I think that she took risks and sometimes they landed and sometimes for me they did not. It was like a little bit too much piano. There were specific moments like stupid song where I was like, this bridge rocks.

[Olivia Rodrigo (singing)]

It's a thing that I can't think about. Tell your friends that you're min.

[Stephen Thompson]

Oh, the bridge is so good.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah. But like, I don't want to sit through that whole song. It's just, it's too slow. I don't. Wow. Anyway, I concede.

[Stephen Thompson]

So mixed. Mixed is what I'm taking away from this mixed.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

It has moments that I will definitely come back to again and again. And I'm already thinking about. And then it has songs that I probably will never listen to again if I can avoid it.

[Stephen Thompson]

Okay. How about you, Hazel?

[Hazel Sills]

Yeah, I mean, I certainly was, I think, a little bit more negative on this album. I think that Olivia Rodrigo really pulled me in with Guts. I think that was her first album where I felt like she had sort of emerged as a very exciting voice in pop music for Me. And there was so much angst on that album and a very kind of specific point of view coming from like a young woman artist. And I think that she loses a bit of that specificity on this album to sort of this larger narrative of, you know, being in love, falling out of love. And, you know, I think there are some strong moments. I think, like, her production on this album is really interesting, but I think overall on like a songwriting perspective, I wanted more from her.

[Stephen Thompson]

Wow. Y', all, I'm. I think I am the token person on this panel who is completely o Rod pilled. Yeah, what she does works for me. It's worked for me since Sour. I think she kind of emerged pretty fully formed as a. Just a very strong presence, a strong songwriter, a very strong singer and live performer. Every time she's popped up, you know, any, you know, singing on SNL or whatever, I just think, wow, her vocals are really, really strong. And to me, this record, you know, feels like a natural extension of the records that came before it with kind of a few new influences swirled in. I have always been really, really impressed by, just by the cleverness of the way that she has managed over the course of her career to combine Gen Z singer, songwriter, very Taylor Swift influenced pop, with a lot of sounds of like 90s alt rock. And here she also manages to mix in a little bit of New Order, a little bit of the Smashing Pumpkins, a little bit of obviously the Cure. Not only in the song that we heard that includes Robert Smith, but like name checking the song song Just like Heaven in the single Drop Dead, you

[Olivia Rodrigo (singing)]

know, all the words did Just like Heaven and I know why he wrote them Loud that you're standing right here.

[Stephen Thompson]

The second single on this album is called the Cure. Even though it doesn't in any other way really reference the band to me, I think she does such a great job bridging a generational gap between Gen Z and Gen X and kind of fusing them together in clever ways. For me on this record, I think the strongest songs are the ones that have a little more energy. I think her ballads I find a little lethargic and they don't really hook me in. I think maybe the way a couple of the ballads on her first two records do.

[Hazel Sills]

Yeah, totally.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah. I've never really been a fan of ballad. Olivia, like Driver's License for me, was not the biggest hook into her career. I was really excited when she started experimenting with like punk rock. And like you're saying, Steven, really calling back to these influences, we all Know, she's very into, like, the sort of riot girl pop punk aesthetics. And I was really thrilled to see her sort of pivot a little bit on this album away from those and further back into the 80s. Like, I did feel like. I don't know, I didn't want her to get stuck in that sound. And I think there are moments on this album where she pulls it off really well. Like, I liked the song youg Me equals Less Than Three.

[Olivia Rodrigo (singing)]

I know everybody changes, but I hope that we don't.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I liked that it sounded a little bit like the Cure, and it sounded a little bit Like Always or Diet Sig. Like, it had a little contemporary crispiness to it.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yumizuma. I don't know that she's listening to Yume Zuma, but it seems like she could be.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah. You know, so there were moments, but I agree with Hazel where, like, I feel like it was missing some of the bite and some of the sarcasm that I really enjoyed from her first two albums. Like, some of the lyrics just fell a little flat. Even though, sonically, I liked what she was going for in a couple of different places on this album.

[Hazel Sills]

Yeah, I just feel like on the last album, you know, I really love Olivia in the mode of songs like Bad Idea, Right. Or Get Him Back or Ballad of a Homeschool Girl. Like, this sense of anxiety or, like, inner conflict that I feel like she is actively working through on her songs. And I just. I didn't hear that as much on this album, I think, because it has such a clear, you know, sort of container. Like, she is singing about this one relationship and how it has transformed her falling in love, how its demise. And I think that, you know, Sour and Guts just had such wider scope. And I loved hearing her sing about all these different aspects of her life, from, like, social anxiety to, you know, body dysmorphia. And I think, you know, that really set her up to me in my mind as a very, you know, Steven, to your point, like, a very, like, generational talent. Like, someone who. I just really wanted to hear their perspective on her personal life and what she's going through. And I didn't get as many of those moments on this album. I just think, because it was, you know, very narrative driven and she's leading us through this story.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, I'm just gonna keep steering us in the direction of things I like about this.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Go for it.

[Stephen Thompson]

Because I really am a fan. And one thing that I really appreciate, and I think, Hazel, you and I have talked about the song The Cure as a real highlight of this record. And I think one thing that I think this song hints at and kind of suggests, you know, a future direction and expansion of her sound is I think there are several tracks here, including the Cure, that really get at a kind of grandeur, like a sonic grandeur to match the emotional grandeur that she's trying to capture. And to me, that song has these, like, these big strings. It's definitely a song that evokes the kind of peak Smashing Pumpkins. That song's also getting at something I think really important, which is that, like, love is not the solution to all your problems.

[Hazel Sills]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

I also just feel like that's a great message to put out into the world.

[Hazel Sills]

Great message to put out into the world. And I think especially powerful for someone like her. I mean, most of this album, you know, the first half of this album is basically love songs. You know, songs about being intensely head over heels in love. And that's actually kind of a new subject material for Olivia Rodrigo. I mean, she has sort of been built this reputation with songs like Driver's License Vampire, these really intense, you know, cutting songs aimed at Xs. And I think the Cure is so interesting to me because, you know, she is someone who has spent most of her career writing about love and chasing it and, you know, searching for it. And on the Cure, it's like she has it. And it's not a song that's, you know, a dig at an X or something like that. It's not like a vampire. It's this moment of real self realization and, like, discovery. And it sounds like I'm hearing her, you know, have this epiphany in real time. And I think that that is why the Cure for me is the strongest song on this album, because it. I think it contains this sort of critical distance that I wanted Olivia Rodrigo to have about most of her relationship on this album. And. And it's just an incredible performance, like she is singing on that song, and it has a great music video, and so it's definitely the highlight for me.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, I agree. I think her voice sounds incredible. I didn't love this song when it came out as a single, but I think in the context of the album, it really clicked into being kind of what Hazel's saying. She's taking a little bit more of a step back, grappling with conflict in a way that we don't really get to hear for a lot of the album. And, yeah, her voice just sounds incredible. I like that she's not singing so much in a falsetto or in a like, she's just kind of. It's a little bit like bogged down in a way that I really like and I think matches the emotional tone of the song.

[Stephen Thompson]

And I think it's worth discussing kind of the context of this record where she had written a bunch of love songs, you know, because she was in a relationship and was very happy and was has, you know, has spoken in interviews about kind of like this was my first kind of grown up relationship. And then over the course of the making of this record, that relationship ended. And so they suddenly kind of had to go back and like retrofit an air of sadness to it and to kind of create the track sequencing that we have going on here. I mean, this. This record is sort of subtitled where like the first half of the songs are subtitled A Girl so in Love. And the second half of the record is subtitled you Seem pretty Sad. And the Cure is the song that is the fulcrum. And I agree with Issa that my initial reaction to the song as a single was like, no, it's pretty good. But then hearing it in the context of the way that these songs fall, it kind of took on much, much, much more power. I want to stick up for the song. Stupid song.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I'm sorry, I went too hard on my hate of it.

[Hazel Sills]

I will say it's grown on me. But I want. Steven, I want to hear your full throated defense.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, go for it.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, first of all, I think it's the best song Taylor Swift has done since midnights.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Exactly.

[Stephen Thompson]

I think it is massively better than anything on the last two Taylor Swift records. It is certainly very swift. Co Including. I know it has that thing that I think Hazel is maybe more tired of than I am, which is that kind of pitter patter vocals.

[Alon Cohen]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

But to me, part of what jumps out to me at the song is it's just very commercial. It feels like a colossal summer hit. Also, you know, we've spoken several times just about how strong a singer she is. I think her vocal command on this song is. Is something that very, very few, even major pop singers could pull off.

[Hazel Sills]

It's interesting you say that, cause I honestly felt like she was straining a bit on this song. But I sort of like those higher notes. But even though I don't love this song, I understood it to potentially be a choice because the way that this song plays out, her voice is building in intensity. She's like, I'm a heart of wax melting in the sun. Like I'm this undone thread and there's this kind of like build to. But it's funny that you said that she is. I don't know. I don't know if she was totally hitting all those notes for me in that song.

[Stephen Thompson]

So you kind of hinted at what I'm saying though, which is that like, letting your voice go a little ragged is part of the toolkit of a powerhouse singer. Think about like Beyonce and like certain moments on the self titled record or Lemonade or whatever where she lets her voice get a little raspy, break a bit. Like she could hit those notes, but by letting her voice go. Go more ragged, she's letting emotion in. And I think the way that song has this like, this kind of careening quality to it where like her emotions are running ahead of her, her voice can't quite keep up to me, I think that's part of its power. I don't want pop music to sound totally friction.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

I don't know.

[Hazel Sills]

It's interesting, the story behind this album of them, you know, Olivia Rico and her collaborator Dan Nigro having to go back and sort of tweak these early songs. And I think one of my biggest problems with this album is that I don't know if they successfully pull off that tweaking. I think that there are a lot of songs in the first half where I just, they. They read as very earnest to me, even though I can sense or tell that they are trying to put this, you know, darker level of sadness or I think she described it as like creepy in an interview with the New York Times aura to them. And I think the song on the first half of the album that I think really successfully does that tweaking to me is the song Maggots for Brains, which I really loved and is very totally like Issa. You mentioned Allve's earlier. It's like a jangle pop song.

[Olivia Rodrigo (singing)]

I'm a zombie in my body I'm a train off of the track. I feel dirty, I feel rotten and the cold is your all flat.

[Hazel Sills]

That is the song where I heard it and I was like, okay, I see what you were trying to do. And I think you've really successfully done it on this song where you're essentially describing yourself as, you know, feeling like a zombie in your body. Like every time your boyfriend leaves the house, you're like beside yourself. So yeah, it's stupid Song is I think one of the songs on this album that very successfully completely telegraphs love to me.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

And that bridge it's just like Cruel Summer. I'm glad that you called it a Taylor Swift song, Stephen, because it came on and I was like, this is the thing that would make me. I would listen to this whole song just waiting for this buildup, but I just wish it didn't. I don't know. The emotional drive of it isn't enough to get me to sit through the first half of the song until that part kicks in. But the drums are incredible.

[Stephen Thompson]

Oh, that bridge. It's interesting because when Driver's License came out, so many people were just like, oh, that bridge. That bridge. That bridge is the best ever. And to me, that bridge was what kind of tipped the song over into a little kind of silliness for me. It's like, oh, she's so young and she's swearing. It's very teenage. Right. And, like, that's part of what works about it. To me, this was like, this bridge felt like she's in command.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah. Which is what I wanted to hear more of on the record. Like, I think when I heard that bridge, I was like, oh, my God, when she's locked in, like, she is so incredible. And I think that the production worked really well. Like, I think that song takes a really good pivot in the second half, but it just. I don't know. I feel like overall, like, this album just had too many ballads for me, and I feel like it kind of. It bogs her down. I think it sort of keeps her in this kind of, like, adolescent sort of Hazel. You've described this to me before as, like, Claire's core music, and that is. I was unfortunately getting a little too much of that on this record.

[Hazel Sills]

I always. And I don't know if it's selfish. I don't know if it's my personal taste getting in the way of my critical ability to evaluate the music. I always want Olivia to push back from her theater kid, Disney Channel upbringings. And Issa, to your point, I think when she is in ballad mode, and I think Stupid Song does have a little bit of that, you know, theater kid flair, for sure. When she's in that ballad moment, I don't hear the growth. I think I hear growth when she is making more interesting choices. And also, there's a part of me that's like, you know, would these songs, if she had sat with some of these ballads more, would they have turned into a different kind of song? Like, what a song like Begged? You know, if she had sat on that a little bit longer, would it have stayed in Its, you know, minimalist, kind of at the piano origins.

[Stephen Thompson]

That's interesting. Cause I think Begged is maybe the strongest ballad here.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Okay.

[Stephen Thompson]

In part, I think, because of the sound, because of that gorgeous choral arrangement.

[Olivia Rodrigo (singing)]

They say it's a virtue to not let good luck slip away.

[Stephen Thompson]

I think that keeps it grounded in prettiness. The way a song like Honeybee to me is, like, floating away. And it's like, a little too cloying. Begged, I think, has a little more emotional heft.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Hazel Sills]

It's interesting talking about these songs. Cause I think because of the way that the album is packaged and the way that she has, you know, described it and sold it to listeners, is this, like, you know, tight kind of cohesive narrative, I think makes me listen to the songs, I think, a little more critically because they're in conversation with each other. And I'm not a fan of Honeybee at all. I can't forgive her for Honeybee. But it is so interesting to me that, you know, Stupid Song is this song about, you know, being unable to fully express your, you know, feelings in music because they're so strong. And then. Then she has a line in Honeybee, which is the song that follows Stupid, so where she also expresses the same idea, like she sings about being, you know, kind of unable to describe her feelings. So it's moments like that where I just, you know, I wanted. I don't know, I felt like the songs kind of bled into each other a little bit for me, or I was listening to them differently. As I would say, you know, guts are sour.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I agree. I think I was craving a little bit more mess. And it all felt a little too tight and like everything was a little bit too contained. I wanted her to go off the rails a little bit more. And I think the moments in which she does that, like maggots for brains, it really works. I think she's really good at sort of teetering over the edge but keeping the song together. And I don't know, I think there were a lot of moments on this album where it was a little predictable and boring.

[Hazel Sills]

Oh, oh, Issa A single tear falls from Steven's face But you know what?

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I loved how I really did like the collaboration with Robert Smith, which Hazel, I know you weren't the. The biggest fan of. Even if she's been a little bit heavy handed with references to the Cure on this album, I appreciate that choice. I think they sound really great together. I like the way that their voices meld. I don't know, I thought it was cute. Even though there is sort of an underlying like lacking a little bit of dryness and bite and sarcasm that I wish was a little bit more present. But I liked hearing him on the record. I thought it was a really fun choice.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, I think we can agree that this is a great record. I like it.

[Hazel Sills]

That's the point of this podcast is Stephen has an opinion, invites guests on and at the end of the day we must agree with him.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

And we do.

[Stephen Thompson]

That is that's exactly Founders intent, what this show is all about. All right, that brings us to the end of our show. Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, Hazel Sills, thanks so much for being here.

[Hazel Sills]

Thank you.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Thank you.

[Stephen Thompson]

This episode was produced by Liz, Matt and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Stephen Thompson and we will see you all next time.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive for more. Capella University's flexpath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn [e-mail].

[Commercial Announcer]

this message comes from Bombas. Upgrade your summer staples with soft socks, cushy sandals and Breezy Basics. One purchase means one donated. With over 200 million donations and counting, go to bombas.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase.