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- [00:01]
Sponsor
Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection hotels with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else, Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com this message comes from Instacart. The holidays are all about sharing with family meals, stories, Grandma's secret pecan pie recipe, and now you can also share a cart. With Instacart's family carts, everyone can add what they want to one group cart from wherever they are so you don't have to go from room to room to collect votes for sugar cookies versus Shortbread. Just share a cart, download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.
- [00:49]
Stephen Thompson
Hey, it's Stephen Thompson. It is almost the end of the year and this is the season when NPR comes to you as a nonprofit news organization to to ask for your support. Maybe you're already an NPR supporter and if so, thank you so much. But if you've never given to public media before or not in a while, please consider it now because supporting public radio is a great way to express your values. You want to stay informed about what's going on in your community and around the world. You want to know where to turn for information you can trust and to hear perspectives that challenge your opinions. And believe me, I get it. Sometimes you want to tune out from the news and just hear a really cool story. NPR gives you that space to experience a little more joy too. Our team here at Pop Culture Happy Hour has loved bringing you conversations about everything from our favorite YouTube rabbit holes to pop culture pumpkin spice lattes in 2024. And together we can do even more in 2025. The easiest way to support Pop Culture Happy Hour and NPR Network stations across the country is to sign up for npr. It's a recurring donation that gets you special perks from more than 25 n NPR podcasts like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, behind the scenes content, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and the NPR Wine Club. It only takes a few minutes to sign up and you can do it right now at plus.npr.org we love keeping you company with smart, fun and yes, sometimes deeply silly conversations about all corners of the pop culture universe. And we simply could not do it without you. Thank you again for being a critical part of the public media community. Join npr.npr.org A warning this episode includes discussion of sex acts. In the new movie Baby Girl, a high powered CEO has an affair with a mysterious intern at her company. Nicole Kidman stars as the CEO while the intern is played by Harris Dickinson.
- [02:59]
Linda Holmes
Their affair gets complicated by the many power dynamics involved not just in the office, but also in a sexual relationship defined by dominance and submission. I'm Linda Holmes.
- [03:10]
Stephen Thompson
And I'm Stephen Thompson. Today we are talking about Baby Girl on Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr.
- [03:20]
Sponsor
Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection hotels offering over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences. From medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com this message comes from BetterHelp this holiday season, do something for a special person in your life. You give yourself the gift of better mental health. BetterHelp online therapy connects you with a qualified therapist via phone, video or live chat. It's convenient and affordable and can be done from the comfort of your own home. Having someone to talk to is truly a gift, especially during the holidays. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month. Support for NPR comes from Google this year Google is celebrating the breakout searches of 2024 that captured the world's attention and shaped our year in ways we never saw coming. Watch the film at G Co YearInSearch.
- [04:33]
Stephen Thompson
Google search on this message comes from Capital One offering commercial solutions you can bank on. Now more than ever, your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services, all tailored to your short and long term goals. Backed by the strength and stability of a top 10 commercial bank. Their dedicated experts work with you to build lasting success. Explore the possibilities@Capital1.com Commercial A member FDIC joining us today is our co host Aisha Harris. Hey Aisha.
- [05:10]
Aisha Harris
Hey Stephen.
- [05:12]
Stephen Thompson
It is a pleasure to have y'all here. In the opening moments of Baby Girl, a tech CEO named Romy is having passionate sex with her husband. She's played by Nicole Kidman and he's played by Antonio Banderas. We quickly learn, however, that things aren't quite right. She wants more than she's getting from her marriage. It's a situation that gets extremely complicated when Romy meets one of her company's new interns. His name's Samuel. He's played by Harris Dickinson. And there's something strange about the way he talks to her. He's presumptuous and demanding in ways that seem to both repel and intrigue her. Soon enough, they're having an affair that's rooted in power exchange. As she explores her submissive side in dramatic sex scenes, the power balance between them keeps shifting and their relationship grows increasingly complicated, with tremendous risks to her marriage and family, as well as both of their careers. Baby Girl was written and directed by Halina Raine, who also made the film Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. Baby Girl is in theaters now. Linda, I'm gonna start with you. What did you think of Baby Girl?
- [06:12]
Linda Holmes
You know, I mostly thought this was a good movie. I think that it benefits a lot from good lead performances. I think what I found intriguing about it was the way that. And you kind of alluded to this, the way that it mixes a variety of, you know, the kind of capital P power that she has because she's the CEO and he's an intern, which I think is, to me, the most important power dynamic in terms of analyzing the relationship. But there are also a lot of kind of lowercase P power dynamics in the sense that she has kind of this interest in submission and playing out scenarios of that in their affairs. It demonstrated to me the ways in which it's not actually that difficult to tell what she enjoys and what parts of it are him genuinely not respecting the boundaries that she tries to then put around it. And again, this all sounds like you're saying, well, they're both wrong. She's the CEO of the company. That's not what I'm saying. But within the relationship that they have, there's also an issue of the difference between her enjoying a submissive relationship with him, but also her wanting to be able to say, here are the boundaries of it. Here are the things I actually do not want you to do, such as showing up at my house, for example, and his desire to transgress not just the boundaries that are part of the scenarios they're playing out, but the boundaries that are legitimately her boundaries.
- [07:47]
Sponsor
Right.
- [07:47]
Linda Holmes
I don't necessarily think the movie comes to a lot of conclusions about, you know, who is right and who is wrong. I think it's just kind of exploring the many different ways in which it's kind of impossible for this to be an ethical relationship, especially because of, obviously, like I said, that. That capital P power that she has over kind of his economic existence, but also because of the different ways that they're Interacting?
- [08:15]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. I mean, plus one to everything Linda said. But also during my screening, about 10ish minutes in, the cackles started coming and then they didn't stop, really. I mean, I don't know if we had a particularly giggly audience.
- [08:32]
Linda Holmes
Yeah, that didn't happen at mine.
- [08:33]
Aisha Harris
Some of the audience members in mine seemed a little bit younger. I don't know if maybe they were like. Because this is such a very sexual movie. It is. You know, I know the kids these days. I'm not. I don't want to blanket them all with this. But a lot of younger people have lately, at least online, been kvetching about there being too much sex. Even though some of us older people have been like, well, we feel like there's not enough sex. This feels like just the right amount of sex, in my opinion. And so maybe this might make some people uncomfortable or giggle because they're uncomfortable, but this movie, it was hard for me to take too seriously. It is, as Linda said, interested in positing these ideas and thoughts around power dynamics and what it means to be a woman in power and a woman who also has sexual agency to some extent, even though she somehow can't tell her husband of how many years that she's not satisfied. It's 2024. I don't know. I don't know what to say here. Once I was able to sort of let go of the fact that this movie doesn't quite play out the way I expected it to. It's labeled an erotic thriller, but I found it more erotic than it than thrilling, especially towards the end. This does not kind of veer in the same direction as like an Adrian Line movie of the 90s. No, no, no. It does not do that. Once I got over that and just took it for what it was, which is like really strong performances, some funny and also some sexy moments, I was just like, you know what? This is fun. This is a fun movie that I don't think you need to think too deeply about. But I'm curious, Steven. I know that you were kind of struggling with this or like you were still processing this long after the movie ended. From what I've gleaned from you, what did you think?
- [10:25]
Stephen Thompson
Yeah, yeah. And I agree, really, with everything both of you have said about it. I think there are strong performances. I sort of, in some ways felt like it's like thought provoking without being interesting. I was reminded several times watching this film of a classic Onion headline from way back. Romantic comedy Behavior gets Real life man arrested.
- [10:48]
Aisha Harris
Yes.
- [10:49]
Stephen Thompson
Like Watching the way this kid talks to her in their early interactions in this film, I felt like needed a subtitle and arrows pointing, like, don't try this at home. Like, anyone talking to someone with the power dynamic that they have kind of intrinsically, the way he speaks to her is incredibly foolish. And I am somebody. And, you know, Yalls mileage may vary, but I'm somebody who sometimes struggles when I watch a film. And I think this entire film unravels if anybody just has a conversation.
- [11:23]
Aisha Harris
Yes.
- [11:23]
Stephen Thompson
And obviously this is true to the way many couples operate. I don't mean to suggest that it's unrealistic, but it is sort of shocking the way, like, these people have reached the ages they have reached and not ever had a conversation about what they want. There is an extremely chilling scene, and Linda kind of alluded to this between Samuel and Romy about consent. That is one of the most coercive conversations I have seen in TV or movies about consent. Like, he is explicitly coercing her and kind of blackmailing her in a conversation in which he is sort of demanding her consent. And it is genuinely unsettling to watch. And it's important to separate my frustration with characters in a movie from my frustration with the movie, because these are not supposed to be. These are not supposed to be avatars for how people should act in these scenarios. They are flawed characters who are screwing up. And that conflict is why we're watching the movie. But it was at times sort of baffling watching these characters navigate these things without ever having a healthy conversation about it.
- [12:40]
Linda Holmes
Yeah, I get what you're saying. At the same time, I think one of the things the movie is about is the way that shame can be very dangerous for people. And so one of the things that you eventually learn about Romy is that. And I was grateful for this. It's not a thing where she's like, once I became a CEO and I was in charge all the time, I just needed somebody to sometimes be in charge of me. It's not that. She says, I've always felt this way. I've always had these desires. And she's always been deeply, deeply ashamed of them. And I think that is a thing that can really happen. And because she is so deeply ashamed of these feelings and these desires, she doesn't talk about them with her husband. She just assumes this is all deviant and bad and I shouldn't feel it. And so she tries to ignore it. And because she feels shame about it, she's very vulnerable to, first of all, Making bad decisions herself as getting involved with the intern. But she's also very vulnerable to being shamed by other people in a sense where she's being treated disrespectfully, but because she's so ashamed, she has no willingness to kind of defend herself. And it's because it's not an ethical way to have this relationship. Right?
- [14:00]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, I think that's a really great point, Linda. And I see that. And I think the more I think about this, the more I feel as though the shame aspect of it is the part for me that really clicks in this movie. Of all the sort of different threads that the filmmaker's pulling on here, like, that, to me, is the one that is manifested the most clearly. There's a moment where Romy and Samuel are having what I believe was their first encounter, like their first sexual encounter, explicitly sexual encounter in a hotel room. And it's a very, very long take of him doing things to her. And we get a close up of her face. And in that long, very long take, which I is, you know, this is Nicole Kidman at her acting height peak.
- [14:46]
Stephen Thompson
She's actingest.
- [14:47]
Aisha Harris
Actingest. But in the best way possible. She is firing on all cylinders here. You see her face, like, wash over with pleasure, and then like, oh, my God, I shouldn't be like. You can see she's like. I think at one point she kind of, like, tries to cover her mouth or something. Like, she's clearly both enjoying it and hating herself at the same time. And that, to me, is so clearly drawn. And probably one of my favorite scenes in the movie where I think I kind of felt more of a disconnect or felt as though it was a little bit more muddied. And I couldn't tell if it was muddied because this was intentional or muddied because it's just not trying to dig too deeply into it is the character of Esme, her assistant, who is played by Sophie Wilde. Sophie Wilde is great, by the way. I didn't realize she was the actress from the great horror movie of Talk to Me. And she's here now playing Romy's assistant who's like, she's a black woman. That is not really delved into too much, but the fact that she's, like, trying to get her. She keeps asking, can we talk about my promotion? Can we talk about my promotion? And there's a conversation that the two of them have where Esme is. You know, she's saying, I know about this affair. And then, you know. But it doesn't quite play out the way you would expect it to. And I wasn't quite sure what the director was trying to say about this idea of power and a woman. Like, if the rules were reversed, if this was a man who was doing this versus what a woman is doing here, how would we feel about that? And that also leads me into sort of like the ending, which we won't spoil too much. But I felt the ending, it leaves a lot of ends, like, too neatly tied up in a way that made me wonder, you know, is it progress, or is this just. I don't want to say lazy, but it didn't connect for me. I don't know, Steven. You look like you might understand what.
- [16:38]
Stephen Thompson
I'm trying to say.
- [16:39]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [16:40]
Stephen Thompson
I mean, it kind of speaks to this film's ambiguity and how much of it is a Rorschach test. How happy you're. How satisfying you're supposed to find. That ending, I think, is going to vary so widely from viewer to viewer. As I was watching this film, I did occasionally pause to dread the discourse around it. I also think the discourse around it may end up being part of it. Because I think each person is gonna have a different reaction to how these things played out and how satisfying you're supposed to think that ending is. And how each one of us is supposed to feel about these different power dynamics in play, including the ones involving Esme, who, in a way, I at least appreciated kind of having somebody to root for. Cause it was hard to root for anyone in this central relationship.
- [17:31]
Linda Holmes
Yeah. It's interesting because I think I found this to be a movie that, in a way, was refreshing. Because I don't think it's trying to reach conclusions, as I said, about who is right and who is wrong. Except that I think, you know, it's very clear that this is an offense against her marriage. And it's very clear that this is inappropriate because she's the boss.
- [17:53]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [17:54]
Linda Holmes
Everything beyond that, it's a much more kind of gray area. And to me, it was interesting to see a film where I think they're really just positing the existence of this woman and her experience. I certainly felt by the end of the movie, like I knew and understood her and who she is and how she comes to do the things that she does. The shame is the thing that is the most toxic for her and the most damaging. Cause it's the thing that holds her back the most from handling this preference that she has in a way that's, you know, more healthy and ethical.
- [18:35]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. And to be clear, I think I'm still trying to work out sort of what the film reveals about this idea of power, and especially power as understood between two women.
- [18:48]
Linda Holmes
Oh, for sure, for sure.
- [18:49]
Aisha Harris
But also, this is a movie where there's an entire dance sequence. Like, not since the Keanu movie starring Key and Peele has George Michael's father figure been used so effectively. Oh, my God. It's kind of silly. And I think that is one of the things I like about it, is that I think it understands that some of this, yes, it is ethically gray, but also some of it is kind of silly in a way, and silly in a way that is not judgmental, at least. Even though the character of Romy might have a lot of shame, it's very clear that this is not a film that is trying to shame her. And I admired that about it.
- [19:28]
Stephen Thompson
Yeah. I think the one asterisk I would put next to this. I do kind of wish they had just left out the parts that allude to her having experienced childhood trauma.
- [19:38]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [19:39]
Stephen Thompson
Like, not every transgressive sex act is rooted in childhood trauma because it's kind of tucked into the dialogue in such a perfunctory way. I wish they had just left it out.
- [19:50]
Linda Holmes
Yeah, I get that. I get that because I think the people are so interesting. And, you know, we've talked a lot about Romy and who she is and how she operates. But I also think that Harris Dickinson in this is really interesting. And this kid is. So the thing I like about it is that he's not that fascinating.
- [20:10]
Stephen Thompson
No.
- [20:11]
Aisha Harris
No.
- [20:11]
Linda Holmes
Like, he is sometimes menacing, but also kind of a doofus at certain moments. And you feel like it's not like he's some kind of master player. And he's so magical. And he's been at this for years and knows how to manipulate people. I think this kid is, like. He's kind of goofy in some ways.
- [20:35]
Aisha Harris
Yes.
- [20:36]
Linda Holmes
But also, it's just that he listens to her and kind of tries to get a feel for what's going on. Go ahead, Aisha.
- [20:42]
Aisha Harris
Sorry. Yeah, no, but I think that's a great point. And I also think to that point, he's not that. But I think there are moments where we see that he thinks he's not. And it's like, oh, my goodness. Because he talk about the power imbalance, like, at one point he really does say, like, I have power over you. You are the one who has more to lose than I do. I guess that's where I get. I also kind of Trip over, like, okay, what is this trying to say about power? Because it did, to me, in many ways, kind of suggest, like, okay, like, people who enter into these situations as people in power, having gone through MeToo and all these other things, it's like, you can see a little bit of that in that interaction between him and her where he's like, well, this could all end for you. Even though, like, in reality, that's not necessarily really how it works. Although, would it. Is that how it would work for a woman?
- [21:32]
Stephen Thompson
For women? I was wondering that same thing.
- [21:34]
Aisha Harris
I don't know. So it's like. It's tricky. This movie is messy. And I think that's what I admire most about it. And if I'm gonna see Nicole Kidman play yet another very rich, powerful woman who has secrets, makes terrible decisions, makes terrible decisions, like, this is one of the better examples of this. I'm for it. I'm here for it.
- [21:59]
Linda Holmes
Yeah. I was happy to see her doing this rather than another kind of rich, chilly, distant, brittle socialite. Brittle socialite, yeah. Perfect. And I did appreciate that. I think this calls on the kind of more daring part of her repertoire and her willingness to kind of, you know, do things that are a little bit, you know, out there and Eyes.
- [22:25]
Aisha Harris
Wide Shut a little bit here. Like, that's what I kept thinking about, for sure.
- [22:29]
Linda Holmes
And I did like that. And I was happy to see that. And I'll tell you, I just. Harris Dickinson, just who I first saw in the Iron Claw, in which he played one of the wrestling brothers.
- [22:40]
Aisha Harris
Also, Beach Rats. I highly recommend Beach Rats.
- [22:43]
Linda Holmes
Yeah, I think he is in this movie. Does a great job of sort of really keeping you in suspense about. Not suspense, but, like, really keeping it very ambiguous. What exactly is up with this guy?
- [22:58]
Stephen Thompson
What's this kid's deal? I kept asking, what is this kid's deal? And it should be noted, it's a Christmas movie. Like Die Hard.
- [23:05]
Aisha Harris
It's a Christmas movie that talks about cookies and milk. It's very on brand.
- [23:10]
Stephen Thompson
That's right. It does. It does. Milk for Santa. There's milk for everyone. All right, we want to know what you think about Baby girl. Find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture we'll have a link in our episode description that brings us to the end of our show. Linda Holmes, Aisha Harris, thanks so much for being here.
- [23:33]
Aisha Harris
Thank you.
- [23:34]
Linda Holmes
Thank you, Stephen.
- [23:35]
Stephen Thompson
This episode was produced by Romel Wood and Lennon Sherpa. It was edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katsif. And hello, Come in provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Stephen Thompson and we will see you all tomorrow. This message comes from GiveWell. GiveWell provides rigorous, transparent research about the best giving opportunities so that donors can make informed decisions about high impact giving. To learn more, go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter NPR at checkout.
- [24:12]
Sponsor
Support for NPR and the following message come from Rosetta Stone. The perfect app to achieve your language learning goals no matter how busy your schedule gets. It's designed to maximize study time with immersive 10 minute lessons and audio practice for your commute. Plus tailor your learning plan for specific objectives like Travel. Get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off and unlimited access to 25 language courses. Learn more at RosettaStone. Com NPR this message comes from Warby Parker. Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in house from premium material starting at just $95, including prescription lenses. Stop by a Warby Parker store near.