Black Doves

Summary

Pop Culture Happy Hour Episode Summary: "Black Doves" (Released December 9, 2024)

Hosted by NPR’s Pop Culture Happy Hour team—Linda Holmes, Glen Weldon, Stephen Thompson, and Aisha Harris—with guests Roxanna Haddadi and Kristin Meinzer.

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Introduction to "Black Doves"

In this episode, Glenn Weldon introduces Netflix’s new series "Black Doves," a stylish British spy thriller set in London during Christmastime. The show stars Keira Knightley as Helen, the wife of the UK Defense Minister who secretly feeds information to a covert spy network, and Ben Whishaw as Sam, her former partner drawn back into the espionage world to protect her amidst rising threats and violence.

Notable Quote:
Glenn Weldon [00:00]: “Black Doves may be for you if you like your holiday cheer spiced with British wit and a really surprising amount of gunplay.”

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Guest Impressions and Reactions

Roxanna Haddadi on the Show’s Style and Action

Roxanna Haddadi, Vulture TV critic, expresses strong enthusiasm for "Black Doves," praising its departure from realistic spy dramas in favor of a more stylized, action-packed narrative reminiscent of "John Wick" and "Guy Ritchie" films. She appreciates the complex underground world and the chemistry between the leads, emphasizing the show's fun and engaging portrayal of espionage.

Notable Quotes:
Roxanna Haddadi [04:06]: “I have such a huge smile on my face because I am very tired. I think of spy shows that try to be realistic. I'm no longer interested in that.”

Roxanna Haddadi [04:19]: “I want, like, John Wick, Guy Ritchie style... It really made me think of Gangs of London. That is more fun.”

Kristin Meinzer’s Critical Take on Pacing and Plot Development

Kristin Meinzer, co-host of "Daily Fail," offers a more critical perspective, acknowledging the excellent cast and atmospheric setting but expressing a desire for more consistent action and plot surprises. She feels the series sometimes lags in delivering the nonstop excitement promised by its trailer, leading to moments that feel too subdued for a spy thriller.

Notable Quotes:
Kristin Meinzer [05:33]: “I wanted more action, I wanted more surprises, I wanted more intrigue... There are a lot of very slow scenes on this show.”

Kristin Meinzer [09:22]: “I wanted more revenge. I wanted more fire there. I wanted more of everything.”

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Host’s Personal Reflections

Glenn Weldon shares his initial misconceptions about the show's tone, expecting something akin to "Slow Horses" or Jean Le Carre adaptations but finding a more pulpy and exaggerated style instead. He discusses the series' unrealistic action sequences and the consequence-free violence that ultimately enhances its entertainment value for him, despite recognizing its departure from traditional spy narratives.

Notable Quotes:
Glenn Weldon [06:03]: “Just shy of Bond. I think it's unrealistic in a kind of hilarious way.”

Glenn Weldon [07:27]: “She can slip off in the dead of night to do whatever the hell she wants... So this isn't Cozy Le Carre. It's Cozy Guy Ritchie.”

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Character Analysis and Performances

The hosts commend the performances of Keira Knightley and Ben Whishaw, highlighting their convincing portrayals of complex, emotionally resonant characters. Sarah Lancashire’s role as Mrs. Reed, the handler, receives particular praise for adding depth and intensity to the series, with Roxanna comparing her to iconic characters like Margo Martindale’s in "The Americans."

Notable Quotes:
Kristin Meinzer [10:34]: “Ben Whishaw is terrific in this role. I think that Keira Knightley is very convincing as a spy.”

Roxanna Haddadi [11:26]: “She’s perfect. Every spy series needs this sort of, like, no bs, very frank Handler figure.”

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Setting and Stylistic Choices

The Christmas backdrop of "Black Doves" becomes a point of discussion, with Kristin appreciating the festive atmosphere but questioning its necessity. Roxanna, however, enjoys the stylistic elements it brings, such as the visual of a spy walking through snow and the unique lighting during action sequences, finding it enhances the show’s aesthetic appeal.

Notable Quotes:
Kristin Meinzer [15:04]: “Christmas was a nice backdrop for this show, but it wasn't necessary.”

Roxanna Haddadi [16:01]: “I love a forlorn spy walking through the snow. I like the sort of, like, garish red and green lighting that keeps popping up.”

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Expectations for Season Two

Both guests express optimism for a second season, hoping it retains the emotional depth and high-stakes action that resonated in certain episodes. They look forward to further character development and more dynamic plotlines, anticipating that season two will expand the intricate world established in the first season without falling into narrative complacency.

Notable Quotes:
Kristin Meinzer [10:34]: “I just wanted the whole series to be like [episode three]. With those emotionally resonant moments combined with lots of killing and fighting.”

Roxanna Haddadi [12:07]: “I do hope it is another six episode because that means I don't think this show suffers from Netflix bloat.”

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Glenn Weldon wraps up the discussion by emphasizing the show’s unique blend of humor, action, and emotional storytelling. While he acknowledges some inconsistencies in the plot and pacing, he appreciates the overall entertainment value and looks forward to the continuation of the series. Kristin and Roxanna echo similar sentiments, highlighting "Black Doves" as a fun and stylish addition to the spy genre, albeit with room for improvement.

Notable Quotes:
Glenn Weldon [14:27]: “Next season will be more fun nonsense, and I won't believe a second of it, but I'll be there.”

Roxanna Haddadi [16:43]: “I do think that Christmas added a little flourish stylistically.”

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Highlights from the Episode

• Chemistry and Performances: Strong on-screen chemistry between Knightley and Whishaw enhances character dynamics.
• Stylized Action: Over-the-top action sequences provide a thrilling, albeit unrealistic, viewing experience.
• Emotional Depth: Moments of emotional resonance, particularly between main characters, add depth to the narrative.
• Stylish Setting: The Christmastime London setting offers a unique and visually appealing backdrop.
• Character Development: Sarah Lancashire’s portrayal of Mrs. Reed stands out as a compelling and formidable handler.

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Overall Assessment:

"Black Doves" is celebrated for its stylish execution, engaging performances, and blend of action with emotional storytelling. While it may not cater to all tastes—particularly those seeking a more realistic or consistently pulpy spy narrative—it stands out as a vibrant and entertaining series with the potential for further development in its second season.

This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the Pop Culture Happy Hour episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and those unfamiliar with "Black Doves."

Transcript

[Glenn Weldon]

This message comes from Capital One. Your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services backed by the strength of a top 10 commercial bank. Visit capitalone.com Commercial Member FDIC the new Netflix series Black Doves is a pulpy and stylish British spy show starring Keira Knightley and Ben Whishaw. Knightley plays a politician's wife who's been secretly funneling information to a mysterious spy network for years, and Wishaw plays her old partner who's been out of the game. But when Knightley's character gets targeted and bodies start piling up, Wishaw returns to protect her. And it's all set in London at Christmastime. So if you like your holiday cheer spiced with British wit and a really surprising amount of gunplay, Black Doves may be for you. I'm Glenn Weldon and today we're talking about Black Doves on Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr.

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[Glenn Weldon]

Joining me today is Vulture TV critic Roxanna Haddadi. Hey, Roxanna.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

Hello.

[Glenn Weldon]

Hello. Also with us is Kristin Meinzer. She co hosts the Daily Fail, a podcast that does comedic close readings of the tabloids. Hey, Kristen.

[Sponsor]

Hi.

[Kristin Meinzer]

Great to be back.

[Glenn Weldon]

Great to have you. All right, so Black Doves stars Keira Knightley as Helen, the wife of the UK Defense minister. She's got a comfortable life, great house, and sweet kids, but it's a cover. She's actually a highly placed spy who's providing valuable information to an organization that sells that intel to the highest bidder. But when the man with whom she's been having an affair is murdered, her handler summons Helen's old colleague Sam back to London to watch her back. Sam is a queer, champagne swilling assassin who used to work closely with Helen before he was forced to leave the UK for mysterious reasons. He's played by Ben Whishaw. Helen and Sam get drawn into an escalating and increasingly, some would say, absurdly violent conflict involving London gangs, a couple of deadpan assassins, both the British and Chinese governments, and Sam's old boyfriend. Black Doves is streaming on Netflix now and has already been picked up for a second season. So, Roxana, let's kick off with you. What'd you think?

[Roxanna Haddadi]

I loved it, like, a lot. I have such a huge smile on my face because I am very tired. I think of spy shows that try to be realistic. I'm no longer interested in that.

[Glenn Weldon]

Not an issue here.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

I want, like, John Wick, Guy Ritchie style, very complicated, like, underground that have, like, entire worlds of characters. And I thought that this did that really well. The chemistry is so good. I think the action is so good. It really made me think of Gangs of London. That is more fun. Or the Gentleman that doesn't make me feel as trashy for liking it. So I had a really good time.

[Glenn Weldon]

All right, so thread's a needle, you would say. Okay, interesting.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Glenn Weldon]

Christian, what'd you make of it?

[Kristin Meinzer]

You know, I think the cast is excellent. I think the dark, brooding atmosphere is well done. It did a good job of grabbing me immediately, but I just wanted more from the series. I wanted more action, I wanted more surprises, I wanted more intrigue. I wanted more of what the trailer is promising us. The trailer really makes it look like it's nonstop, but there are actually Lots of very slow scenes on this show. A lot of moments of just quiet. I'm not here for quiet. I'm here for spies. Being spies at Christmastime and killing it. And they're not always killing it. They're frequently just looking at each other quietly.

[Glenn Weldon]

Okay, all right. This is a good spread. I like this spread here. I'm gonna come down more in the Roxanna camp because I just rolled over like a golden retriever for this show. I let it scratch on my belly. I can't explain why, though, because I had some of the same issues you did. And I also. I think I came into it wrong. I thought this was going to be what it very much is not, which is gonna be. I thought it was gonna be cozy British spice stuff that's kind of delighting in the mundane and the punch o'clock and the paper pushing side of espionage. Like Jean Le Carre. Like Slow Horses. I would not recommend this show to a Slow Horses fan because this is pulpy fantasy. Just shy of silly, right? Just a few notches shy of Bond. I think it's unrealistic in a kind of hilarious way. I lost count of the number of ferocious gun battles taking place on completely empty streets in the center of London. A place that has more CCTV cameras than people, right? Or characters having secret conversations in incredibly echoey stairwells. And I'm like, guys, there's a room right there. You could just go off into that room and have this incredibly perilous conversation. There are characters who invade gang hideouts and they would get picked off as soon as they crossed the threshold, but they managed to kind of sail through the hideout and just gun people down like it's nothing. And then there's the main thing about the show, the promise that the show makes, which is that Helen is this incredibly public figure, right? She's the wife of the defense minister. So. So it's setting up boundaries for itself. And you think what the show is going to do is spend six episodes navigating those boundaries. How is she going to live that spy life inside those boundaries? The way it deals with those boundaries is by ignoring them completely. She's married to the defense minister, and yet she can slip off in the dead of night to do whatever the hell she wants. She can have these incredibly violent fights in her kitchen while her kids and her husband just doze upstairs. So this isn't Cozy Le Carre. It's Cozy Guy Ritchie. There are so many guns in this thing. There's a rocket launcher at one point, right?

[Roxanna Haddadi]

There's a rocket launcher, and they need the rocket launcher. Okay. It's not extraneous. It's very necessary. I mean, it's Guy Ritchie, like, without the racism and sexism, right? Like, it's.

[Glenn Weldon]

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

And I say that as a fan of Guy Ritchie at certain points, like, this is more about, like, the Knightley and Wishaw relationship, I think, than any of the logic of this woman would be surrounded by security at all times, right? This is about, like, the conversations that are happening in this pristine, beautiful brown BMW as the two of them talk about, like, the emotional weight of their lives. And I think that, for me, scratches like the Americans itch of we're spies and sometimes we're really sad. But I do understand if you want more of that action stuff, then maybe you want more of the knife fights, right? Like, Kristen, did you like the action, or were you also underwhelmed by the action?

[Kristin Meinzer]

I think the action, when it existed, was pretty good. I thought it could have been more creatively choreography at points. Again, I think I was just teased by the trailer into thinking this was gonna be more pulpy than it was. It just tiptoed near the edge of pulp. And I really wanted it to go all the way based on the trailer. And I also felt that there were some missed opportunities on this show, frankly. Because if her husband is the defense minister, why is she not really tied up and spying on that most of the time? Why is there this whole other plot that we're really focusing on? Because I thought the setup was great. Like, yes. What is happening behind closed doors in London in this household? We don't really get that. We mostly are dealing with. And this is not a spoiler. It's in the very first episode. We're mostly dealing with her pining over this other guy that she was sleeping with and what's going on with him. And I wanna avenge his murder. And I'm all for revenge, but I wanted more revenge. I wanted more fire there. I wanted more of everything.

[Glenn Weldon]

Okay. This is bringing me into a closer focus. Cause that's the stuff. The stuff you wanted more of is the stuff that actually I didn't. And I think a weird thing happens with this show, and it's kind of counterintuitive. But when the violence and the espionage is so consequence free, right. It trickles down into everything, and I start to notice it in everything. At one point, Sam rolls up to a party and he parks his car on a completely empty street right in front of the house. He's gonna walk into. And then he and Helen are practicing target shooting under a bridge somewhere. And I'm like, where is this bridge? And do they just leave those targets there when they. Like, that's when it just became kind of a fun watch. Because whenever something tense would happen that's important to the plot. Like a character needs to infiltrate spy headquarters and get in and get out. I didn't waste any time worrying about how are they gonna. Again, boundaries, how are they gonna navigate this? They're not. I don't care. All that's gonna happen. Cause I'm not gonna believe what happens. So it's not important. And that's when I realized I'm watching this show not for the action, not for the gun battles, not for the spy stuff. Cause again, I think the central plot involving the British and Chinese government was kind of like, that was a missed opportunity for me. I was in it for the hang. The show's a good hang for me.

[Kristin Meinzer]

Yeah, I can see that. And I do think Ben Whishaw is terrific in this role. I think that Keira Knightley is very convincing as a spy in this role. And Sarah Lancashire, who plays Mrs. Reed, she's fantastic. Americans probably know her best as Julia Child on the HBO series Julia. I also liked hanging with these people, and I felt that the emotionally resonant scenes between them, some of them were very powerful, especially episode three. I hope this isn't a spoiler, but there's some that happens in episode three with Ben Whishaw and his boyfriend at the time, and that one just punched me in the gut. And I loved that episode so much. And I just wanted the whole series to be like that. With those emotionally resonant moments combined with lots of killing and fighting. I wanted that altogether.

[Glenn Weldon]

Roxanna, what's your take on the Sarah Lancashire character? Mrs. Reed?

[Roxanna Haddadi]

She's perfect. And I love her. I mean, I think every spy series needs this sort of, like, no bs, very frank, like, Handler figure. It's like the Margo Martindale on the Americans.

[Glenn Weldon]

On the Americans, yes.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

You know, it's Gary Oldman on Slow Horses. But I really love how precisely venomous she is. And there's this moment in the premiere where Helen is talking about how she was in love with Jason, her lover, and like, she's really torn up about it. And Sarah Lancashire gives this great sighing. Oh, Christ. It wasn't working an angle. It was real. It wasn't a job. It was.

[Glenn Weldon]

It was what?

[Roxanna Haddadi]

Love. Oh, Christ. Those sort of moments that feel very wary. Spy craft I can't believe you're getting emotions in this game. I think for me, the emotions felt effective because we did always have that counterbalance of how could you get caught up in this? Right. Like, how could you reveal yourself to another person? And I think that is sort of the interesting stuff for me about season two, because I don't want to spoil too much. But the season ends in a way where we're not sure that some of these partnerships are gonna continue. Right. Like, some people take different jobs. There's the introduction of a couple new mole characters within the government. And so I do think that for me, at least, the friendships here were, like, pretty effective. And the threat that they're gonna get blown up in season two, I think worked. I am curious if it's gonna be another six episode season, because that feels like the British standard, right. And so maybe we'll get like a different shift in terms of what these characters are doing or how the action operates in season two. But, yeah, I think it's interesting that each of us sort of responded to something different and criticized something different. That's fun. I like that.

[Glenn Weldon]

That's fun. And I certainly felt most at home with the show when it was the Sam and Helen show. In those moments where they're in that car. The dialogue is sufficiently witty and fun and sharp. In the case of Ben Whishaw character Sam catty. He can occasionally be kind of catty. I kind of love that. Even such that toward episode five, at one point there's a character who says, let's go get your friend. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm here for. But I let it slide because so much goodwill had been built up to that point. I'm glad you guys are praising Sarah Lancashire's Mrs. Reed, the handler, because I didn't pick up on what she was putting down. I gotta tell you, that character puzzled me because on the Americans, Margo Martindale gets a lot of range to play that person. But her Mrs. Reed, Sarah Lancashire's Mrs. Reed, just kind of is playing her. The choices she's making is Mrs. Reed never blinks, and she delivers all her dialogue in this kind of ASMR monotone. I kind of thought she was one note in Gray Banks, and I wanted her to get more to do, which is another reason why I'm hoping she's back for season two. And I do hope it is another six episode because that means I don't think this show suffers from Netflix bloat. I Think this show got in and got out and did what it wanted to do. We'll get a different story next season. And it does tie up the story it's telling in this season. And next season will be more fun nonsense, and I won't believe a second of it, but I'll be there. I mean, how much of this Christmastime setting is a factor for y'all? For me, it kind of is. I kind of want to pour myself a hot toddy and just settle in and vibe with this show and hang with this show or maybe just guzzle some champagne the way that Ben Whishaw does.

[Kristin Meinzer]

You know, I'm a Christmas nut. I love Christmas. I have two Christmas trees in my office 365 days a year. I love Christmas. And I thought Christmas was a nice backdrop for this show, but it wasn't necessary. Like, if the next series takes place during summer holiday, that's gonna be fine. If this takes place at any other time, I think it's still gonna be a great show for people who love this kind of thing or a fine show for people who thought this show was fine. It's gonna be fine. Regardless of when it takes place. It is a nice backdrop for this particular series. But again, I don't think it was necessary.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

I liked it as a stylistic touch. I love a forlorn spy walking through the snow. I like the sort of, like, garish red and green lighting that keeps popping up. Right. Very effective during an incredibly bloody shootout. So I liked it. And I almost hope that it's Christmas time again next season.

[Glenn Weldon]

Yeah, me too. I kind of want this to be a Christmas tradition, but if it is.

[Kristin Meinzer]

Christmas, don't you want their actual actually to be a shout out to Wyatt's at Christmastime? I kind of did, and they never did. You know, it's like, is there a murderer on the loose dressed as Santa? No. Is there poison being put in the Advent calendar? No. It doesn't have to be during Christmas. And I kept on waiting for there to be a reason for it to be at Christmas. It never appears, and that's fine. But it might have been fun if we had a reason for it to be Christmas.

[Glenn Weldon]

I just thought it was the excuse that these people had to keep going to these horrible parties and make these very stilted speeches and pretend to be all chummy and then go home and go, oh, my God, I hated all those people. Which relatable. You wanna see representation on television.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

It helps to build in that sort of, like, extraneous tension. Yeah, right. Because can Helen kill this person or does she have to go to this holiday fundraiser? You know, So I do think that element of it is fun. And I do think for me, it felt a little bit like the government stuff. I didn't need any of the government stuff. Like, I didn't care about any of that. It just added a little flourish narratively, and I just feel like Christmas added a little flourish stylistically.

[Kristin Meinzer]

Yeah. And it did give her a lot of excuses of why she was out of the house. She was shopping a lot, supposedly.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

She was shopping a lot.

[Glenn Weldon]

Shopping a lot.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

A lot of very nice flannel outfits. Lots of, like warm, cozy. That mid length leather trench is, like, exceptional. So really, it's for the clothes. That's where we plan.

[Glenn Weldon]

Yeah. I did want to shout out the two assassins, Williams and Eleanor, played by Ella Lily Hyland and Gabrielle Creevey.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

Love them.

[Glenn Weldon]

Why don't we just.

[Kristin Meinzer]

Fireball. Misplaced. I've got a rocket launcher.

[Glenn Weldon]

Since when have you had a rocket launcher? Since last Christmas. Okay. Again, they don't seem particularly worried ever that they're gonna die, so I wasn't worried that they were gonna die. It did ratchet down the tension. Again, it's a problem with this show if you accept that it's a problem. I didn't. And then when the great Katherine Hunter shows up on episode two, I didn't know I needed. I didn't realize there was a Katherine Hunter shaped hole in this show. But she's here now and she's filling it and I am happy. It's a tiny little part, but. And all she has to do is sit in that tracksuit and be intimidating. But she did it like no one else can. And I was totally happy.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

Classic of the London crime genre.

[Glenn Weldon]

Yes.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

An evil baddie in a tracksuit. And I love that it's her. Before we get andor season two, she just gave us a little bit to tide us over until then.

[Glenn Weldon]

All right, well, we want to know what you think about black doves. And if you're anticipating season two and what you're drinking as you watch, find [e-mail] PCHH and that brings us to the end of our show. Roxanna Haddadi, Kristen Meinzer, thank you so much for being here.

[Kristin Meinzer]

Thank you so much.

[Roxanna Haddadi]

Thank you.

[Glenn Weldon]

This episode was produced by Hafsa Fatimah and Lennon Sherburn and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katseff. And hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon and we'll see you all tomorrow.

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