Aisha Harris (2:58)

She's a writer and producer and the host of the podcast Feeling Seen on Maximum Fun. Welcome back, Jordan.

Walter Chow (3:05)

Thank you so much for having me. Hello.

Aisha Harris (3:07)

Hello. Also with us is Walter Chow. He's a writer, critic, and film instructor at the University of Colorado Denver. Hey, Walter. Welcome back to you, too.

Walter Chow (3:15)

Hey, thanks for having me.

Aisha Harris (3:16)

Great to have you both. I've got a crack team of horror aficionados. I am very excited. This is going to be fun. Well, in Bring Her Back, Billy Barrett and Sora Wong play step siblings Andy and Piper. They're orphaned after their father dies suddenly. Andy is just a few months shy of turning 18 and wants to apply for guardianship of Piper, who is younger and has low vision. For now, though, they're sent to live with Laura, a childcare worker played by Sally Hawk. Now Laura lives in a house deep in the woods, and she's not all there. She's also looking after another orphan child, Oliver, who shows extreme signs of distress and neglect. He's played by Jonah Wren Phillips. Very quickly, their increasingly strange behavior disrupts Andy and Piper's close bond and their well being. Bring Her Back was written and directed by twin brothers Danny and Michael Filippo. It's in theaters now. Jordan, I'm going to start with you. What did you think? Bring Her Back.

Walter Chow (4:17)

Obviously, Talk to Me was something of a sensation, critically and financially. That movie actually outpaced Hereditary. Like, that is technically like a bigger hit for a 24 than hereditary. I had a really good time. I was so impressed with what it telegraphed about what Danny and Michael Philippeau are capable of. And Bring Her Back for me exceeds Talk to me. This one, I was like, this is so seriously my lane with these guys. Because you hear about movies, like, especially coming out of, like, a festival scene where, like, there's that hype mill around. It's like, oh, it was so messed up and like, you're not even gonna believe this. Yeah, this movie really did make me genuinely recoil and, like, hug my legs to my chest in my seat multiple times alongside being emotionally effective and devastating at turns. Super impressed. Big fan of Bring Her Back.

Aisha Harris (5:15)

Nice, Nice. Thank you, Jordan. Walter, how about you? How are you feeling about this?

Walter Chow (5:19)

It is such a warm hug for me to be here with you guys.

Aisha Harris (5:23)

I feel like so the opposite of this baby.

Walter Chow (5:25)

Yeah. I'm glad this movie brings about warm hugs.

Walter Chow (5:27)

I feel so understood and seen here. I love this movie. I love it, love it. I think it is A crazy kind of new masterpiece that I only maybe 50 understand. And 50 just fear. And they're making stuff kind of on the vanguard, I think, of new extreme cinema where they're just emotionally devastating and they're dealing with terrors and fears in ways that I've never really thought of before. I mean, talk to me. These are such old ideas, right? The possessed totem, the. These are old things. Except the way that they do it is so new, I think. It's so seldom for me anymore. I'm this old, ugly man and I watch a movie. I've seen this before, you know, shaking my cane at the lack of imagination. But when I sit in front of these people's movies, I'm like, I have no idea where this is going. I can't believe that you're breaking all of these rules and these unspoken. They're not just pushing envelopes, they're incinerating envelopes. They're like envelopes give me different kind of containers. You know, they're doing things.

Aisha Harris (6:25)

Give me gladwear, gladware.

Walter Chow (6:27)

Give me. Give me something really hard to. You know, they're doing stuff that I could never feel like I've seen before. And it's constantly shocking. And it's not just about the shock, though. It isn't a terrifier movie. It's about this emotional devastation, the grief, the. You know, there's a scene really early on in this at a. At a funeral where, you know, this young boy is being forced to do something that he's uncomfortable with.

Aisha Harris (6:49)

That was such a weird scene.

Walter Chow (6:51)

Oh, my God. And it took me right back to my dad's funeral where my mom was part of a cult and insisted on burying him in that cult and forced us, you know, the kids, to do this weird sort of walking around ceremony and chanting ceremony I was really not comfortable with. And immediately all those emotions and traumas that I had suppressed for 20 some years flooding right back because of these filmmakers out of nowhere. I was like, okay, well, I don't know exactly what you're tapping here, but it's atavistic and it is familiar. And I'm terrified right now. And that's, you know, what can I say? I'm a fan. Huge fan.

Aisha Harris (7:25)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it. It sounds like it touched something deep inside both of you that I wish I could have tapped into. I was excited for this because I did. Love. Talk to me. Something about that film and the way it deals with loss and grief and channels that through. Like you were saying, Walter, these very old archetypes and tropes really spoke to me in ways that I could not get through with this film. And maybe I'm misremembering how brutal that talk to me was, but this one I wrote in my notes at one point, expletive brutal in all caps. And at that point I had been like, looking, as I said, looking through this movie for half of like half the time through my fingers or like looking to the sidewall and avoiding eye contact with the film. It was too much for me.

Walter Chow (8:16)

I mean, there's a scene with a kitchen knife that, like. I'm not saying it's the most innovative rule breaking thing you've ever seen, but the simple effectiveness of it. I've not been able to wash my mind of it since.

Walter Chow (8:27)

I'll never eat a cantaloupe again.

Aisha Harris (8:29)

Yeah. And I don't know if it was just like, I wasn't in the mood for it. Maybe this just isn't for me. I think part of my issue with it comes from. Because I have a pretty high tolerance, generally speaking, for violence and for horror. But with this, I think I just wasn't in the mood for it. I also think I just couldn't deal with the fact that this is a movie with. Where children are being abused in the most horrific ways possible. And so I think, like, if you are the type of person who. That's just like a. No, no. I mean, you might have guessed already from how we described this early on, but like, it is too brutal. And the brutality for me overrode all of the emotional stuff that I think is happening here. Like, I recognized it. And I also think that Andy and Piper, the actors playing them are so good.

Walter Chow (9:19)

They're so good. They have an incredible eye for who to put in their.

Walter Chow (9:24)

Unreal.

Aisha Harris (9:24)

Yeah. But I guess it just like it wasn't enough for me. I was waiting for it to be over. I will say I'm curious what you guys thought about this, but, like, when it comes to my horror, I tend to not enjoy either supernatural or this kind of stuff that like, gravitates towards the occult. From the very opening of this movie, it suggests that we are gonna be dealing with something along those lines. And it didn't jibe for me. But I also know, like, Jordan, you are someone who is very. I mean, you like all horror.

Walter Chow (9:53)

Yeah, yeah. Broad palette.

Aisha Harris (9:54)

What do you make of how that sort of plays out throughout the rest of the film and through Sally Hawkins performance? We haven't even really talked about here yet.

Walter Chow (10:00)

No. And for me, that really is like the tenderness that grounds Andy and Piper's sibling relationship. Especially as you learn how it was embattled initially and how they bonded together. And it became something so loving like, that really unfold, unfolds, I think, in a really wonderful pace throughout the movie. And it feels so earned. And Sally Hawkins performance is like, my favorite thing about this movie is how it doesn't show you everything immediately, but I think absolutely immediately. As soon as the siblings walk into Sally Hawkins house, you are aware of how wrong something is. But the movie is only going to slowly feed you that information for what specifically the movie is talking about. But because you're so destabilized so quickly by how good Sally Hawkins is, I think it makes every. No matter how like, almost trickly kind and obsequiously accommodating she is, particularly to Piper, Everything she does is tinged with so much menace. It is the granular nuance of the relationships within this movie and the performances that I think, to me, keeps it from being an occult, supernatural scene spectacle and truly feels like a movie about relationships. I was so invested in that when those relationships are being assaulted, I was not relaxed or unstressed for, I think, a single minute of this movie.

Walter Chow (11:32)

Yeah. I love that you talk about the duality of Sally Hawkins's performance, because I'm spilling too much. But she reminds me a lot of my mother, my relationship with my mother in that there was so much like, goodwill, but there was also this, like, frantic desperation, this tension, this stress, narcissism, even, where the goodwill was always underpinned by potential damage. And it's all met well, but it's all sort of dialed to 11. Every interaction became with my mother and also Sally Hawkins in this film with this sort of, like, everything is fraught. I know that it's based at the bottom on this, like, really kind of essential love for your kids.

Aisha Harris (12:09)

Yeah.

Walter Chow (12:10)

But the way that you're going about this is causing irreparable harm and trust that she brings all this out for me, it, you know, sort of, to Jordan's really eloquent point, I wasn't thinking of it as anything supernatural. I was thinking of it as the things that we do to each other in families, especially when they begin to fall apart.

Aisha Harris (12:27)

Yes.

Walter Chow (12:27)

All of a sudden now I'm going to, like, gravitate towards the daughter and I'm going to, like, split the relationship between the siblings because I'm threatened by the male presence. And there's all this stuff that I'm like, Dr. Filling throughout the course of this, you know, try to understand the psychology that's going on that. So that the supernatural elements were almost secondary.

Walter Chow (12:44)

I was prepared, actually, the whole movie for the supernatural to be like a red herring because it was so like her Sally Hawkins and bouncing off the performances of the actors Billy Barrett and Sora Wong, and the hero of this film, Jonah Wren Phillips as little child Oliver. And everybody is so intensely fractured and, like, gaslit and manipulated and traumatized. I was like, is this supernatural occult part of this? Like, truly just vaporware. And actually, we are going to boil down to everyone is so cracked that they are willing to go to any length possible to materialize a circumstance or a reality that is like, none of this is happening. Actually, like, I was in a chokehold this entire movie.

Aisha Harris (13:34)

Well, I will say, like, I may have oversold the supernatural features of this film. I think, again, I have such a low tolerance for it that, like, anytime it's even suggested, I'm like, oh, here we go.

Walter Chow (13:45)

Here we go.

Walter Chow (13:47)

Oh, boy.

Aisha Harris (13:48)

But I, again, I really wrestle with this because I don't feel as though I can accurately say whether I think it's good or not. I just had such a visceral reaction to it and wanted it to end, like, 30 minutes before it ended. This is one of those movies where I'm just like, I don't know, man. Maybe it's just not for me, and maybe it is actually good. It's just, like, not at all for me.

Walter Chow (14:09)

That's how I feel about Wes Anderson's entire filmography. I get it. I get it.

Aisha Harris (14:13)

Jordan, you and I are aligned absolutely on that. Yeah. I also just like, in these types of movies, you know, anytime you think of a movie, a horror movie where a child is involved, at least I usually think of, like, what is this doing to the actual performer in this movie? Especially someone like Jonah Wren Phillips, who, like, I don't know how old he is, but he's. He's very young. And so I'm just like, the things that he has to do.

Walter Chow (14:38)

Unbelievable.

Aisha Harris (14:39)

I hope they're all getting some counseling. And.

Walter Chow (14:43)

Joe Bird was similarly put through so much in Talk to Me.

Aisha Harris (14:48)

Right.

Walter Chow (14:48)

Like, it's amazing to watch. Watch interviews with Danny and Michael, and they're so Zane. They're zany Australian menaces. They look like they're constantly having the silly time of their lives. And I am so blown away at, like, the pathos of what exists within them and what is, like, so important to them to get out on screen because they are battling things in these movies. And Then they come like, the rocka rocka racka racka. YouTube history of them is so just like out of pocket. Zany, crazy YouTube stunt guys.

Walter Chow (15:23)

Yeah, yeah. You know, the last 20 minutes of this film where Piper sort of, you know, wandering around the house and everything, it really reminded me of a movie called See no Evil, the Mia Farrow movie, in which you're spending a long time with, like, horrible things without being aware of it. And I wonder if that sense of, like, sort of a general dread is what's really definitive for us in our culture right now. I mean, I walk around every day like there's something really wrong. Why is everybody sort of acting okay? Because nothing is okay. Yeah, that dread is the dread that I feel here. Sally Hawkins character, in a very real sense, is the manufacturer of all of this. She did all of this. What is it? I don't know. Not really. And so it transcends the supernatural for me.

Walter Chow (16:06)

The things that I'm most impressed by with Danny and Michael, that they are capable of is taking, like you said in Talk to Me, it's like this totem, this old trope of the archaic thing and the supernatural experience around it. And then kind of classic elements of the teen horror movie with that amazing scene, the montage where they're all interacting with the hand, like the energy and creativity in that scene, I just was so blown away by. And then in this movie too, they are really good at taking things that are familiar to horror and doing what I think is the kind of coolest thing about the genre is taking trope or cliche or the things that you expect and then doing a remix or putting a personal signature on them such that it does the magic trick of making it feel new. And to have a low vision character like Piper, played again by Sora Wong, giving such an incredible performance, that is a trope like what is history littered with, particularly in horror cinema, if not an other rising and a grotesque ification or a condescension to people who are physically different, like, oh, let's take this ending. Autism is a superpower. Or let's take a character who has a visual impairment and then have them wander around in robes like a little chinee wan ghost child who couldn't possibly care for themselves. There's an assertiveness and a dignity the character of Piper. And so I think they take these things that are so well trodden within the confines of horror, and they put this polish on them that gives them something, a level of integrity and a level of distinction and a Level of grit and fully embodied ness that makes it like you understand this enough to put your own spin on it in a way that doesn't feel like ripping. It feels like sincere creation on your part.

Walter Chow (17:49)

It's the dignity that you're talking about. It's dignity. And I don't get that from Ari Aster's film. So I'm sorry, you know, that's another sacred cow like Wes Anderson that I think you're not supposed to touch. But I don't like Ari Aster's movies for the most part, because they don't. He doesn't give his characters dignity. Yeah, you nail it so hard here with the dignity that Piper has and that Sarah's character has, too. It's remarkable. They're completely human beings and. And they give their characters that dignity, that absolute dignity of their relationship, of the nobility of grief, even when it takes a left turn. You know, all this stuff is so remarkable for me, especially, you know, as an old person looking at young people like, really? How do. How do you drink from the old. Well, how do you know this?

Aisha Harris (18:29)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, to your point, also, just about the way they depict Piper's character, I think it is intentional and crucial that we do get just a few moments where we are seeing how we can imagine Piper being able to see in the moment. We are getting the first person perspective. At one point in the movie, she actually says, you know, I can see shapes and light. That's what she can see. But they don't dwell on it. It allows us to both see that perspective and also, you know, as the viewer, you know, fear for her as well. Like, we are her, but then we are also, like, on the outside looking in. And, like, I do think that it handles as much as you can handle these types of things, of showing this type of brutality and cruelty. I mean, I think it does do a good job of not leaning into those tropes. As you said, Jordan, even if it wasn't for me, it's okay. It will be for someone like Jordan and Walter, and I love that for you both.

Walter Chow (19:30)

And it's never the kind of movie that I would be like. I mean, if you don't think you can take that stuff, give it a chance. I wouldn't. I would be like, if this sounds like red flags for you, you'd be like, you should probably skip this one. It's probably gonna be too much. So, like, protect your peace. Like, that's not something you want to convince someone to take a chance on. If the aftermath of it is gonna be like too grievous for them.

Aisha Harris (19:52)

Yeah. I will say though, like, that does not mean that I am not gonna tune in for their next movie because I am. I will be curious because I still, I'm still holding on to like the feelings I had while watching Talk to Me that like, maybe, maybe I'll feel that way again about another mov. We want to know what you think about Bring Her Back. Find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxdetterboxed.com NPRpopculture. We'll have a link to that in our episode description. Maybe you'll be into it, maybe you won't. Who knows. But that brings us to the end of our show. Walter Chow, Jordan Cruciola, thanks so much for being here. I love talking with you. This is great.

Walter Chow (20:33)

Fantastic.

Walter Chow (20:33)

See you again.

Aisha Harris (20:34)

And just a reminder that signing off for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.NPR.org happyar or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Hufs of Bathema and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello. Kamin provides our theme music. Thank you so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Ayesha Harris and we'll see you all next time.

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