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- [00:00]
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- [00:24]
Glenn Weldon
One of the best bits in the animated movie into the Spider Verse was the taste we got of a black and white 1930s film noir. Spider man talked in Dashiell Hammett dialogue and sounded like Nicolas Cage because he was voiced by Nicolas Cage. Well, if you like that taste, Prime Video is serving you up an all you can eat buffet with Spider Noir, a new live action series starring Nicolas Cage. But does the show get its blend of noir and superheroes right? I'm Glenn Weldon. Today we're talking about Spider Noir on Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr.
- [00:59]
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- [02:01]
This message comes from ixl. IXL is designed to help students strengthen core skills and build confidence before the new school year begins. The adaptive platform provides personalized learning for Pre K through 12th grade and is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the United States. One hour of tutoring can cost more than an entire month of IXL receive an exclusive 20% discount on an IXL membership@ixl.com NPR Joining me today is filmmaker,
- [02:32]
Glenn Weldon
pop culture critic and iHeartRadio producer Joelle Monique. Welcome back, Joelle.
- [02:36]
Joelle Monique
Thanks, Glenn. Glad to be here.
- [02:38]
Glenn Weldon
Great to have you. Also with us is Daisy Rosario. She's the senior supervising producer of audio at Slate, where she works with shows like Death, Sex and Money and Icy Am I, which I keep trying to call Icky Me, but it's not really catching on hey, Daisy.
- [02:50]
Joelle Monique
Hey.
- [02:50]
Daisy Rosario
I'm good. Happy to be here. Thanks.
- [02:52]
Glenn Weldon
Great to have you. In Spider Noir, Nick Cage is Ben Reilly, a down on his luck. Private Dick who used to be New York's only superhero, the Spider. But following a tragedy, he's hung up his mask.
- [03:02]
Character Voice (Spider Noir)
Ruby once told me that with great power comes great responsibility. Well, she was the greatest responsibility I ever had, and I failed her. A spider failed her.
- [03:19]
Glenn Weldon
That is, until a case involving a lot of noir inflected analogs of classic Spider man characters. Black Cat, Sandman, Tombstone and more drags him back into the game. Brendan Gleason turns up as a mob boss and Lamorne Morris plays this universe's version of Spidey's reporter pal, Robbie. The press materials say that this is not a spin off of the Spider Verse movies, and it's set in its own separate universe. But come on. In an unusual move, the series, eight episodes are presented in two formats, color and black and white. Trust us, go with black and white. Spider Noir is streaming now on Prime Video. We should mention Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. Joel, we're going to start with you. Is this the stuff dreams are made of?
- [04:02]
Joelle Monique
Oh, maybe not dreams, but definitely not nightmares either. I think there's a lot of fun stuff to enjoy. Nicholas Cage, Nicholas caging all over this joint. He is over the top. It's why he's a star. He's goofy, but somehow still affectionate and resonant. But I think overall, I had a really difficult time with the tone of the show. I love a good noir. To me, noir is all about secrets and trying to understand the human condition. And then usually there's a very intense crime involved. I felt the crime was kind of all over the place and didn't quite build in a way that was satisfactory. And I felt there was a lot of struggle to get the blend of, like, when is it okay to be funny? And when is it okay to be, like, deep and darkly dramatic? And it kind of trying to do both washed it out. I will say what I appreciated about the series is a lot of times, particularly when we're doing comic books within other genres, we want to make everything very sanitized. In other words, we do blind race casting and we're not going to address the struggles of the time period or that becomes the whole thing. It's just about the struggles of the time period which becomes laborious. I felt that this found a really good balance between, like, okay, there was some segregation. Okay, not everyone would have respected everyone in Their position because of the color of their skin.
- [05:29]
Glenn Weldon
Right.
- [05:30]
Joelle Monique
But this is nobody's, like, sob story, and I was pleasantly surprised by that. So there's, again, something to enjoy, some cute performances. I thought costuming was sensational, and the black and white was beautiful. So if you. If you just like watching black and white images, you could just tune right off and enjoy the visual imagery of the show.
- [05:47]
Glenn Weldon
All right. I think that's the dictionary definition of a mixed review. What about you, Daisy?
- [05:52]
Daisy Rosario
Oh, man.
- [05:53]
Glenn Weldon
Okay.
- [05:53]
Daisy Rosario
What a slog. I found this to be.
- [05:55]
Joelle Monique
Oh, Daisy.
- [05:56]
Glenn Weldon
Unmixed.
- [05:58]
Daisy Rosario
I wanted to really like this. Like, I am a fan of basically all of the parts. Right. Like, I also love, like, film noir. I do love the spider verse movies themselves. I thought it was so fun. These different characters that they brought in and gave us, like, little hints of and. And they said, it's not exactly the same. That's the only reason we have the show. So, you know, fair enough. I think Nicolas Cage can be a good time. I actually wanted him to be bigger. Okay. Like, just really go for it if you're gonna go for it. Right. And I know that it's kind of an oversaid thing right now, but to me, it really gave. Like, is this a chatgpt script in the sense of, like, it had all of the elements that, you know, should exist for something that is both based in noir and based in superhero, but it didn't feel like it knew how to actually use those things to maximum effect. It just felt like it was like, okay, we need something like this. We've got that check. But they didn't come together. I will say I don't think any of the performers are giving, like, bad performances, per se. I forgot until Joelle said it about what I thought was actually one of the strongest parts, which was, weirdly, the race thing. Weirdly, you guys got that part right?
- [07:12]
Joelle Monique
I think so. Perfect.
- [07:13]
Daisy Rosario
But overall, it was just a slog. And, I mean, I really like so many of the people that are in this. And the fact that I know I would not have pressed play on any episodes past the first one were I not preparing for this very conversation is just my truth. It's my truth.
- [07:30]
Glenn Weldon
Okay, I come down between you two, but, man, after that first episode, I was totally team Daisy. Ultimately, I do think this missed the mark. I just don't think it goes hard enough because it's adopting noir as a style, as an affect, and that's not what noir is. Noir is a conceptual basis. It's like, it can't be slathered over the top. It has to be baked in. It has to saturate every aspect of what's on screen, or it just comes off as a goof. And I think it comes off as kind of a goof here. Pastiche. But I will say that was me. After the first episode, I groused to producer Mike about how the show was such a misfire. And he asked me, just in passing how I watched it. And I said, well, I just clicked on the first screener I got. That was the color one. He said, watch in black and white. And I watched the second episode and the rest of the episode in black and white. And that effect was greatly lessened because, boy, I didn't think the color worked at all. But it's still there. Even in black and white. There is a feeling of just we're all saying the same thing, not wanting to commit to the bit or to wink at the bit. The mission statement is off. I felt like it was checking up those noir elements dutifully, like they were Stations of the Cross instead of reveling in them. And I don't know if these people love noir. I think they love extending a superhero ip. I don't know. Think they love noir.
- [08:41]
Joelle Monique
Even when we're looking at, like, the shots. Some of these shots are composed so beautifully. But then you'll go 15 minutes without a beautifully composed shot, and you're like, we were just at the table with the mirror effect, and it was so gorgeous. Where did that go? It just comes and goes so randomly, too. I wish that there had been some kind of stake straight through where it was like, everyone is serious, but Nick Cage is the clown in the space. I thought that might have worked. Or if we had more of a Pleasantville effect where, you know, I know they're trying to separate it from the movie. I'm not quite sure why that was the decision that ended up being made. But, like, in the movie, his character finds a Rubik's Cube and he's perplexed and, like, he's, like, astounded by it. And I thought, oh, perhaps we'll bring this idea of moving from black and white to color.
- [09:26]
Daisy Rosario
Yeah.
- [09:26]
Joelle Monique
And kind of explore that. But that's not really the thing either. I guess I was just confused as to, like, what they enjoyed about this character. Was it just Nick Cage's goofy voice? Which, again, sure, very entertaining. Enjoy watching him on screen, but not really enough to carry, like, a full series. I didn't really understand, like, what the end goal was.
- [09:46]
NPR Newsmakers Announcer
Yeah.
- [09:46]
Joelle Monique
As somebody who really loves Spider Man. As somebody who's like a fan of Nicolas Cage and noir, you know, to your point, Daisy, I was just like, all of the elements are here. And, you know, if we can mention, like, Lee Zhong Lee is so fun. I just really love her as an actress. And I thought, like, oh, hers, Cat. It's like, that's a really great casting. Like, that's really fun. I thought Lamorne, you know, when he was allowed to be.
- [10:07]
Daisy Rosario
Yes.
- [10:08]
Joelle Monique
Serious and very grounded as a journalist, was sensational. But then they had him doing some jokes that felt sort of like almost like his Winston character from New Girl. And I was like, I don't understand why this is happening here. And again, love Winston, love Lamorne. Like great characters, but just confusing in this space.
- [10:27]
Glenn Weldon
Yeah, you can do noir superheroes. I just don't think it's happening here. And I don't know why. Because if there's any superhero who could handle a noir treatment, it's Spider man, who is everyman, who gets beat up all the time, who's feckless, even though he has powers. He's the guy who, like noir heroes, get the crap beat out of them all the time, and he does here. But it's still like, I think noir is a point of view, and it has to be cynical and dark and disappointed in humanity. Right. And not depressed about that. People let you down, but it's not depressed about that because there is in noir, a tone of justification. Like, I was right. Dames are bad news and the rich are out for everyone, and people let you down. And this thing that everyone's killing for is fake. And you can adapt that to extend your superhero ip. It can work in small doses, but I think you have to tell a fundamentally different story. I'm not sure why this isn't working when on paper it should.
- [11:18]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
Right.
- [11:19]
Glenn Weldon
Any ideas why it's not?
- [11:20]
Daisy Rosario
I mean, I found myself struggling with the same thing because, like, you know, I just. I just wasn't compelled by it. Right. Like, to the point where, again, I do like these actors so much that, like, out loud, I was like, ah, Lamorne, it's not your fault. I just can't get into it. Like, you know, like, that's what I'm saying out loud to my TV as I'm watching it. I did find myself, like, thinking a lot about the script, but also not necessarily finding enough obvious fault with it to be like, this explains it either. And then the show itself does have that mix that I feel like we're seeing a little Bit more of now of, like, looking both, like, very expensive and very cheap at the same time in, like, weird ways. Like, there are moments in the show where I was like, did Nicolas Cage just, like, call six people up and say, we're gonna make a show? And then they found a room, and now they're just talking in the room, you know, so it's just, like, veering back and forth on these things, but also not in a way that was so extreme that I could, like, really start laughing at it. If you're gonna be bad, just be bad. Be really bad so that you're at least still compelling. Like, I was kind of offended by how bored I was more than anything, especially because love so many of these actors. Like, I think the actors themselves are really, really talented. And also, I was like, did you guys shoot this over a weekend? At some moments, like, it was very confusing.
- [12:42]
Glenn Weldon
Yeah.
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Joelle Monique
Here's the thing. I think the series needed more of the series, needed more romance between Cat and the Spider. Whatever kind of chemistry was building a minute immediately diminishes. I think it needed more Brendan Gleason, in a more upfront way. I thought he was probably, for me, the best parts. Whenever he was on screen, I was, like, clicking back in. And I think it's just because of the character, really. Like, Brendan's doing a great job, but, you know, as Daisy was saying, everyone's doing a great job. But that character feels the most grounded in a noir university. He's an older guy who's losing his perceived control. He's still. He's still the ruler, but he's like, are people questioning me? Are they not showing up? Like, am I being put out to pasture before I'm ready? No, I'm still the boss. That's really interesting.
- [13:26]
Daisy Rosario
Yeah.
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Joelle Monique
Brendan Gleason's character, Silver Maine, has this relationship with Kat Hardy. She's like a lounge singer who's kind of almost like a doll for him. He just, like, amasses this control over her life. It's strictly about, you wear these clothes, you perform in my club. That kind of situation.
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Glenn Weldon
Yeah.
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Joelle Monique
Which I found really compelling for her. Like, for the women in this series. You know, they get really interesting starting points, but I feel like where they go, they don't. They can kind of just stay in the same place. To me, here's the biggest sin of the show. Noir. At a time when, you know, women were going through a lot, we'll say had really interesting, vibrant female characters all through the canon. Like, really great up front, incredible, like, biting dialogue Difficult situations. They had to maneuver. And I just felt like our female characters were kind of stuck. They were given like some interesting starting places and then nowhere to go with that. And they all of their challenges felt superficial.
- [14:27]
Daisy Rosario
Yeah.
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Joelle Monique
There's a human element of fear that is essential to noir of like, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm scared for my life, I'm scared for my compatriots. I'm scared for my country. Like, you need that level of fear running throughout and it's got to be clear for every character, you're just missing the fear. And so all of that like suspense and grittiness and build that you love when you're watching a noir is just gone is difficult. I again had fun moments watching it. There are certain scenes that work. There's some good fight stuff that happens where I was like, oh, that's kind of impressive. I thought, oh my gosh, the spider noir costume is grand.
- [15:03]
Glenn Weldon
It looks good.
- [15:04]
Joelle Monique
So good. And we know we've seen some bad costumes. Yeah. In our time watching the superhero stuff. So I was like pleasantly impressed. I feel like people came to. I just wish. Ah, man, I really wish we had tightened up on like the noir centric element. And maybe that's our fault. Maybe as noir we shouldn't have been anticipating that from like a Spider man thing. But I think coming off of the Spider Verse movies and the quality that was there, I think we're all kind of hoping for that same kind of emotional resonance here.
- [15:32]
Daisy Rosario
Yeah. I mean, I just didn't feel the stakes. You know, I think even before I started trying to look at it more through a noir lens, I just didn't really feel the stakes. Like the way that something that I'm compelled by. Right. Like pulls my attention and I care even if I don't completely understand yet why I care. Right. There were some things that happened in later episodes that I did find interesting, but even then I felt very aware of, like, okay, but like I wouldn't have made it to this point and there's just too many things vying for our attention.
- [16:00]
Glenn Weldon
Yeah. We're all saying in slightly different ways, we're all saying the superficiality of its approach. It's take is what's kind of bouncing off of. I also have a long standing grudge against superhero stories without superheroes. You know, your Gothams, your Smallvilles, your Pennyworths and this thing. Its whole thing is he's hung up the webs, he hung up the mask because of tragedy, which is a very Cliche thing. But in fairness, it's a very Spider man cliche thing, 100%. He's the guy who's always hanging up the suit. So I'm give her props and I'm about to make a very petty point. But I think it speaks to what we're all kind of talking about, this kind of grab bag noir pastiche thing. Lucas Haas plays like an assistant. Lucas Haas. This is a period piece. Either wear a wig or cut your damn hair. You can't have that shag in 1930s. But, you know, you can say, well, this is an alternate universe. That might explain why There is a 1958 Perry Como version of accentuate the positive as a needle drop in episode two, even though this is supposed to be set in the 30s. And in episode three, Ben quotes Bette Davis saying, what a dump. Which is from a 1949 movie, beyond the Forest. So, yes, given that, why wouldn't a character in the 30s have this fallout Boy haircut, You know? Sure, why not? Nothing matters. No stakes.
- [17:15]
Joelle Monique
I did find the time period a little confusing. We talked a little bit about it off my. Well, the costumes are screaming like World War I and it's clearly the 30s. There's so much. They're like, oh, you can't quite tell if the depression has just hit or are we facing, like, the tail end of it?
- [17:33]
Daisy Rosario
Yeah.
- [17:33]
Joelle Monique
And also, I just really don't appreciate things that are too clean in cine.
- [17:38]
Daisy Rosario
Yeah.
- [17:38]
Joelle Monique
And I feel like if we're in the middle of a depression, everybody needs to be much more scraggly. It needs to be much harder times. We get a lot of mentions of, oh, we have no money, but then no consequences of not having the money. Somehow it's always magically there when we need it. Which I find, as a formerly extremely poor person, very difficult to follow. I'm like, what's not how people with zero funds operate? I think that level of realism would have helped us, you know, because when you look at, like, the canon noir, you don't get a lot of, like, mysticism or science fiction. It's just not part of the genre. And so I think when you're going to blend them, you've gotta really nail down your noir elements so that those other elements can shine. I also think, to your point, Daisy, too many characters. I made this. I feel like I've just been harping on this a lot lately. Like, there's so many people we have to follow that you don't feel like you get time to connect with anyone. Cat has a really interesting side love piece which I won't spoil for folks who are excited to watch, which I thought was really interesting. I thought their chemistry probably the best romantically in the series. Why don't I have six more scenes with them? Right. I need much more time with these people. How did you fall in love? What is your relationship like, what is hiding it? Like, how does it the push and pull of each other. Like you get so little of it that it's, oh my gosh, I was dying. I was like, please. Yeah, please. I love the love in anoir. It's always so sticky.
- [19:02]
Daisy Rosario
It is a lot of telling and not so much showing.
- [19:05]
Joelle Monique
Yeah.
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Glenn Weldon
Even in the Hoovervilles, to your point, Joelle, Even in the Hoovervilles, people have kind of smudges on their faces like a high school production of Les Mis. And that's kind of where it kind of cuts off. I don't know. So, you know, you heard us talk about this, folks. We're not sold on it. You might be. It's very pretty to look at. That brings us to the end of our show. Joel, Monique, Daisy, Rosario, thank you so much for being here. We'll have a better thing next time.
- [19:29]
Joelle Monique
Thanks, Glenn.
- [19:30]
Glenn Weldon
This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathom and Mike Katzevin, edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. And hello. Come in provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon and we'll see you all next time.
- [19:46]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
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- [20:02]
NPR Newsmakers Announcer
this week on NPR's Newsmakers, Maine Senate candidate Graham Platner, a working class Democrat leaning into one that the political system is rigged to favor the wealthy.
- [20:12]
Character Voice (Spider Noir)
There's only one direction we need to be pointing fingers and that is up. It's not left and right.
- [20:17]
NPR Newsmakers Announcer
Can that message help Democrats take the Senate in this year's midterms? Graham Platner, this week on NPR's Newsmakers Watch or listen. Wherever you get podcasts.