Chris Klemick (3:03)

Entertainment journalist Christina Escobar. She's the co founder and editor in chief of Latina Media Punto co. Welcome back, Christina.

Guest Speaker (3:10)

Thanks for having me, Aisha.

Chris Klemick (3:11)

It's great to have you. Also with us is writer Chris Klemick. Hey, Chris. Welcome back to you too, Aisha.

Aisha Harris (3:16)

Just trying to take my cut from the chaos. Glad to be with you.

Chris Klemick (3:21)

Yes, it is that kind of show, and it's quite a ride, actually. So in Do Thief, Brian Tyree Henry plays Ray, a scrappy hustler who robs drug dealers in Philly by pretending to be a DEA agent making a bust. His longtime best friend and partner in crime is the morally conflicted Manny. He's played by Wagner Mora. We made it out, man.

Guest Speaker (3:42)

Just keep going.

Aisha Harris (3:43)

I'm getting too good at this, man. You almost convinced me we're a real dea.

Chris Klemick (3:46)

Real DEA would have shot that kid, man. Let's count that money now. The grift is working pretty okay until they get a tip about a big ticket drug lab outside of the city. This attempted robbery goes awry, leads to multiple deaths, and attracts the attention of both the feds and the mysterious overlord of a huge narcotics ring. Ray and Manny escape, but now they have huge targets on their backs, and they and their families have to suffer the consequences. Dope Thief is streaming now on Apple tv. Christina, I'm going to start with you. I think actually before we started taping, you know, the three of us were talking, we're all a little skeptical. We're like, I don't know about this. What are we doing here? But tell me how you landed.

Guest Speaker (4:28)

Yeah, so I definitely went in skeptical. You know, whenever you see gritty crime dramas starring people of color written and created by white guys, I'm always like, ooh, there are so many pitfalls, right? So many places where it could go awry. But I thought Dope Thief delivered, you know, Brian Tyree Henry is also credited on some of the behind the camera stuff. And I felt like his character's relationship, Rhae and Manny really worked and that the action suspense part of it just like traveled through. Like, there is a lot of darkness in the show for sure. But honestly, the first few episodes felt almost like giddy with adventure and excitement and their friendship. And I Felt like that mix of tone made for an exciting show.

Chris Klemick (5:14)

Yeah. And the showrunner is Peter Craig, who has written for movies like the Town, the Batman. And what you're saying about the tone. Dark for sure, but also very funny. Surprisingly. It's juggling a lot of different moods and tones here. Chris, how did this strike you?

Aisha Harris (5:32)

Yeah, I was sort of expecting a crime drama. Not having read the 2009 novel on which this is based, I was surprised to see the comedy kind of bubble up more profitably than the action adventure genre elements. Although I do appreciate that when we do get bursts of action here, it is very human scale. There is a foot chase near the end of, I think, the second episode where Brian Tyree Henry is being pursued by a biker. And, you know, they're running at kind of like a realistic pace. They're both out of breath, and Brian has to jump over some fences in the backyard. And, you know, it's not like a parkour scene from a Marvel movie or something. He's falling down. Which I appreciated those elements. I feel like everything here is very grounded, you know, not just the action stuff, but the comedy as well. Like, it's not a quip that's layered on top of a scene. It's always something that emerges naturally from what's happening, from the relationships in the scene. So I was really happily surprised by this.

Chris Klemick (6:32)

Yeah, I think that point about the humor being sort of baked into this is so crucial because there is a world. And, you know, I think we've been seeing a little bit these kinds of approaches to serious material where I think people have been getting the memo like, dude, we don't want everything to be as heavy as, like, the Dark Knight. Like, we need some levity here and there, but oftentimes I've noticed that when it comes, it is sort of more like very sassy talk or just like offhanded remarks that they're fun but feels stagey in a way. And what I love about this is Brian Tyree Henry. You know, he has been great in comedies. He's been great in dark comedies. Obviously. He was paperboy in the TV show Atlanta, which is, I would say, a dark comedy. Here he gets to play the lead. And seeing him play the lead as both in Action Hero seems not right. Action antihero.

Guest Speaker (7:30)

Protagonist, for sure.

Aisha Harris (7:31)

Yes.

Chris Klemick (7:32)

Protagonist, sure. I think what's so good about this is that Brian Tyree Henry has such a natural presence, both when it comes to the dramatic chops and the comedy. There's a running gag that sort of like Ends with a meatloaf joke about meatloaf, but, like, it's not a joke about meat loaf. It's about his character's relationship to that song in a way.

Aisha Harris (7:52)

Right.

Guest Speaker (7:53)

Let me get this straight, Ray.

Christina Escobar (7:55)

Your ringtone is Bat out of Hell by meatloaf.

Chris Klemick (8:01)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Cause it's been driving me insane. And it lands at the very end of the episode. And it works. Cause it's like he's crying, but he's also laughing. It just handles all that really well. So it's really nice to see that. I think on top of it, it's not just, though, the comedy and the gritty crime. There's also some, like. I don't want to say, like, supernatural elements, but there's a lot of, like, flashbacks or moments where his character, Rhae, has to, like. We don't necessarily know if he's all there. How did those elements work for you in terms of just, like, taking us not just into the comedy in the darkness, but also just, like, the surreality of it all?

Guest Speaker (8:42)

I thought they worked. I felt like it gave a human element. You understood that they were more. All of the characters were dealing with more than just what was, like, immediately in front of them. Right. So maybe they were flashbacks, maybe they were dreams. Maybe that was like them tuning out for a second and being pulled back into a memory. But I thought it gave them each sort of, like, a humanity that carried us through. And I want to just also say, like, Brian Tyree Henry carries this show. Like, his performance is stellar and his ability to toggle between those different modes. Like, if you had a lesser actor, this show would have fallen apart instantly. And he, like, holds it together as a main character, as a person who's struggling, as someone with humor, as someone with a backstory. Like, he's able to kind of manage all of these elements on his shoulder as he's also managing, like, a really complex crime syndicate murder mystery situation. And he does it. He kills it.

Chris Klemick (9:43)

Yeah, Yeah.

Aisha Harris (9:43)

I mean, I'd say mismanaging the murder crime syndicate part, but that's okay.

Chris Klemick (9:48)

Yeah.

Aisha Harris (9:49)

I mean, yeah, No, I have loved him in everything. This will sound like a backhanded compliment, but, hey, sometimes I look at Brian Tyree Henry and I'm like, you know, if you have eyes like that, do you even need to be a good actor? He just has the most expressive eyes where you can sort of project anything that you're feeling onto him. And he gets to play every conceivable emotion in this show, which is really great for him. Right. So I interpreted those black and white little interstitial things as flashbacks as our indication that even as the show opens, he's dealing with some ptsd. And I thought those elements were handled really well. There's a different device in the episode where Brian Tyree Henry's character, Rhaey, expects to be killed. Like, he has resigned himself to his fate and he is rescued by the timely arrival of some cops, as happened. Sure.

Chris Klemick (10:41)

He.

Guest Speaker (10:42)

Thanks God. Yeah. It's luck.

Aisha Harris (10:43)

Yeah. I mean, well, but, I mean, that's one of the inversions of this show, right? Is we don't ever expect law enforcement to be doing anything helpful. Right. And in this one case, they do. But when the cops arrive, we cut to, like, body cam footage of them tackling some of these bikers. And I was a little more thrown by that than by the flashback stuff. I was like, what are we saying here? I mean, we're used to seeing this footage in the context of police abuses, and there's so much of that, you know, woven through the show, particularly in the scenes involving Rhaey's father, played by Ving Rhames. But in that moment, you know, the cops are saving our guy, you know, So I was a little more puzzled by that formal choice to put in the body cam footage.

Chris Klemick (11:24)

Yeah, I mean, anytime you have a show like this, I think it's gonna bring up these questions around, like, how are we depicting the police? And, like, as we've already mentioned, the feds get involved pretty early on. One of the main characters is played by Marin Ireland. She plays Mina Campbell, who in the first episode, she is in the house that Manny and Rhae break into. And he doesn't realize, and obviously he's posing as a DEA agent. And she's like, like, hell you are. You're. You know, and then, of course, like, her being in that house, getting shot and then, like, recovering. That is her both, like, being like, this is a vengeful story, but also, like, I need to find out, like, what happened to my partner who was in the house there with her. And so we're tracking not just Ray and Manny and their sort of moral conundrums. Manny, more so has. He is the morally conflicted one of the two of them in ways that, like, Ray is not. But then we're also tracking the feds, and we are, to some extent, on Mina's side. And so, like, what do you do with that? I don't know. I think that the show kind of walks that balance. And I Wouldn't say that the feds and the cops are necessarily the heroes. There's shades of both them doing good and doing. But also, Mina is just such a fascinating character, like the way Ireland plays her. And again, this is where the humor comes in. Cause, like, she's been shot to the point where she can barely speak. And so the rest of the show, she's speaking. Her voice has been impacted by that. And there are jokes about it. Not in like a, you know, we're gonna make fun of a disabled person sort of way, but in a. Just like, she's just like, it's happened to her and she's, like, pissed. And the way that she interacts with other people I think informs both her character and also what has happen. Christina, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this, though.

Guest Speaker (13:12)

I thought the show did a couple of interesting things, right? Like, nobody is all the way good or all the way bad in the show. That helps a lot. Another thing I would say is that while there is a lot of violence.

Chris Klemick (13:26)

So much.

Guest Speaker (13:27)

So much violence. And some of it, like, super gruesome, like when the guy gets smashed by the car and the wall.

Chris Klemick (13:33)

Oh, God, yes.

Guest Speaker (13:34)

It's rough.

Aisha Harris (13:35)

Yeah, that foot chase again.

Guest Speaker (13:37)

Yeah, that foot chase. I thought you were gonna mention it. That was, like, very br. Gives you a clear hint what show you're in. But the violence does not correlate to transgression. So it doesn't feel like characters are getting punished in my mind, or I wasn't totally sure, and I felt like that was a smart choice in terms of how they positioned and used the violence and the sort of judgment or non judgment of the characters where everybody is allowed to mess up, do stupid things, do smart things, and still be sympathetic. Because as much as you're rooting for Mina, you're also, like, clearly rooting for Ray. Like, you're rooting for Ray and you're rooting for Manny, who are in many ways victims of this particular situation that they find themselves in. But then also, it's also clear that they're victims of, like, a larger societal situation where they didn't grow up with having, like, a good choices as even options. Right. So I thought this show handled it surprisingly well. I was waiting for them to, like, really veer in one direction, and they. They didn't, to their credit.

Aisha Harris (14:41)

Yeah. I find myself thinking about things as I'm watching this as, like, do we empathize more with super smart criminals or kind of kind of dumb, fumbling criminals in this. In this genre? But I've decided that mix is a strength. The way that we see Rey do smart things and dumb things. Both.

Chris Klemick (15:01)

Right. And there's also, like, a sense that he's doing it in part out of desperation. It's interesting to see Kate Mulgrew, who plays Teresa, who is Rhae's father's girlfriend, who, like, basically raised him. The Ving Rhames character, Rhae's father, he's been in prison for, like, years now. So, like, she's basically the only family besides Manny that he's ever really known, at least in the last several years of his life. And so you have her character, and he is, like, trying to help her. He's like, yes, he wants to help himself, but he's also like, basically my mom or my stepmom or whatever. Whatever she is, who I'm doing this for. You need money? I can't pay anybody like that. Hey, what I work so hard for you just to say how much you need? I need 10 grand.

Guest Speaker (15:47)

The hell you need 10 grand for?

Chris Klemick (15:49)

I don't expect you to have that kind of money. It's, you know, it's how you painting so many houses in this cold interiors. At the same time, we see that his relationship with his father is very complicated. Like, he acts from different impulses in a way that I think, again, there's that mix. It's like, it's not just all because of his circumstances of financial situation. It's also like, I really have issues with my father. Like, I hate my father. Like, it's your fault, like, all of these things. I also just think this benefits from having such a strong ensemble cast. Like, Mulguru is great thing. Rhames is great. We've already mentioned we're in Ireland. You also have Dustin Gwen, who's playing sun, who is like, kind of Rey's mentor. I don't know if mentor is the right word, but he. He's more deep into the crime syndicate than Ray is. Ray's just like a low level and, like, they work together and he's great. Like, it's just so complicated and it's sprawling in many ways.

Guest Speaker (16:45)

I want to shout out Kate Mulgrew because I think just whenever she gets to, like, sink her teeth into a meaty, complicated role, she does so phenomenally. And as someone who watched, say, her as a Starfleet captain growing up, I love seeing her, like, edgy. I don't want to give away the spoiler about what her life was before, but, like, man, she just delivers on this role and is clearly also having fun with it in a way that is just like really joyous to watch in a show that, again, has a lot of darkness.

Chris Klemick (17:13)

Her and that dog.

Guest Speaker (17:14)

Yeah, man, that dog. I'm so the dog was hilarious also.

Aisha Harris (17:18)

Yes, sure.

Guest Speaker (17:19)

Me, I felt like the show actually kept it pretty tight. Like, yes, it is eight hours, but the cast of characters is small enough that you could imagine like a theater version. Right. Like, they keep it pretty small. And I would also say I was a little bit surprised, I think in the second episode how quickly we got to violence, chase scenes. Like, I thought it was going to build more slowly. All of the stuff that was in there was the good parts, you know, the fun, action, sexy, whatever stuff. And I think that's also the other reason why it worked was because it did manage to keep it so tight across those eight episodes.

Chris Klemick (17:55)

Yeah. Christina, you said Rhae carries this, but I also think Rhae and Manny together, the Wagner Mora character, like, I wanted all that time spent kind of getting to understand their dynamic and relationship and always wondering, like, are they ever going to betray each other? Like, I think that's like, at the heart, like, that's one of the main questions that comes up. And, you know, what is family? How does Ray, who does he think of as family? And I don't know, it just really worked for me as along for the ride. And I think it's a pretty good time. And it sounds like we all agree that it's definitely worth checking out, especially if you are team Brian Tyre Henry. It's so great to see him in, like, a leading role. I want more of that, please. More, more, more.

Aisha Harris (18:36)

Yeah.

Chris Klemick (18:37)

And when you check out Dope Thief, let us know what you think. Find us@facebook.com PCHH that brings us to the end of our show. Christina Escobar, Chris Klemick, thanks so much for being here. This was fun.

Guest Speaker (18:49)

It was. Thank you.

Aisha Harris (18:50)

Thank you.

Chris Klemick (18:50)

And just a reminder, signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.NPR.org happyar or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Mike Katsif and Hafsa Fathomah and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello. Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris and we'll see you all tomorrow.

Christina Escobar (19:22)

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