Linda Holmes (3:01)

Joining us today from his home studio is our co host, Glenn Weldon. Hello, Glenn.

Aisha Harris (3:06)

Hey, Linda.

Linda Holmes (3:06)

Also with us is our co host, Aisha Harris. Hey, Aisha.

Glenn Weldon (3:10)

Hi there, Linda.

Linda Holmes (3:11)

It's wonderful to see all of you in this holiday season. It might be redundant to recap the plot of this very familiar film, but here we go. It's a Wonderful Life is the story of George Bailey who spends his entire life trying to be a good person, trying to help his community, making sacrifices for others. George is played by James Stewart. He marries his sweetheart Mary, played by Donna Reed. They have some kids and he starts running the building alone in their town of Bedford Falls. He becomes a pillar of the community. But the community is also under the thumb of the very mean Mr. Potter, played by L. Lionel Barrymore. Through a combination of Mr. Potter's cruelty and the absent mindedness of George's uncle, Money goes missing. It looks like George will be blamed and possibly go to jail. He considers suicide and wishes he'd never even been born. But at the last minute, Clarence, his guardian angel, comes to show him how much he has meant to others and what the world would look like without him. George ultimately realizes how much he's loved. Now, the story of this movie within holiday culture, if we can use that term, is partly a story of paperwork. Interestingly enough, the film itself fell into the public domain in the 1970s accidentally, which meant it was much easier and cheaper to broadcast. That meant stations started putting it on TV a lot that contributed to this kind of holiday classic status that it has. But it's based on a short story called the Greatest Gift and there are overlapping intellectual property issues with the story and the movie, blah, blah, blah. Bottom line, it's on streaming, but NBC now has the exclusive rights to broadcast it on tv. So it's not. You don't have the wall to wall. It's a Wonderful Life the way we had it for a while. So this is a story about capitalism that's also had its fortunes very much affected by capitalism. Now, Stephen, you're a soft emotional lump like I am. What are your feelings about this emotional lump of a movie? And I say that very lovingly.

Stephen Thompson (5:04)

Yeah, I mean, this is gonna be an incredibly hot take. So I want you guys to brace yourself. This film that is viewed as a massive classic, that is a staple of Best movies of all Time list. It's a very, very, very good movie. And I was just struck by, among other things, how incred, incredibly well acted it is. I think Jimmy Stewart is. I mean, he gets to give you the complete range of Jimmy Stewartness and all of his I've Got Show, Tom's House and Fred's House. But as much as that stuff has.

Linda Holmes (5:32)

Become sounds exactly like that, it's uncanny.

Stephen Thompson (5:37)

As much as that has become so embedded in the cultural firmament that it sounds almost like a parody of itself. You go back and watch it, it's a fantastic performance. I'm fascinated by the way this movie's polit kind of provide a Rorschach test. Wherever you are on the political spectrum. There is an anti capitalist undercurrent to it, but there is also a moralistic quality to it. It is about the transformative power of decency. You can superimpose this movie over a lot of political philosophies and it works. I think that's one of the secrets of why it endures. I think the Lionel Barrymore performance is one of my favorite performances in the history of film. That is a very, very, very influential performance. Among other things.

Linda Holmes (6:20)

So subtle. That's what I like about it.

Stephen Thompson (6:23)

Happy New Year to you in jail.

Linda Holmes (6:28)

It's got such nuance to it. You never really know, like, is he a good guy, is he a bad guy?

Stephen Thompson (6:34)

Shades of gray.

Glenn Weldon (6:35)

Isn't there a statue of Napoleon in his office? I believe there is. That's how subtle it is.

Stephen Thompson (6:42)

Yeah. I love this movie. I completely understand why it's become a classic. And it was a joy to revisit it. I hadn't done so long time.

Linda Holmes (6:50)

Yeah. Aisha, how about you?

Glenn Weldon (6:52)

Well, this, this movie has been through lots of different iterations of appreciation and or scorn. You know, when the movie was first released, it was kind of ignored. People were like, yeah, it's fine, or it's forgettable. It languished. And then once it started being shown on TV over and over again, people came to love it. And then there was the inevitable backlash that like, It's a Wonderful Life is too saccharine. It glosses all over all these. Of course Pottersville looks more fun than Bedford Falls, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then in like the last maybe 10, 15 years, maybe even 20 years, it's kind of come back around again to. It's like, well, actually, this movie's dark. There is, you know, suicide. There is this overwhelming sense of dread and unhappiness in the George Bailey character. And that makes it good, actually. And I fall somewhere in the middle of it. I think all of these things can be true. And the cynic in me wants to say, you know, this is Capra. Capra. He was given the name Capricorn because so many of his films tend to have this, like, Jimmy Stewart type character who is upstart and fighting for the good. And it shows America as it thinks itself to be, even though it is not like that in most cases. And watching it now, I think it's a really good movie. Obviously, there are some issues here and there. I think that, you know, the sort of framing of it as like, all these things wouldn't have happened if you weren't here. Some of them are believable, others aren't. Like the fact that Ernie the cab driver, we're in the alternate universe, George gets in the car and Ernie and even Ernie, he's like, yeah, what are you talking about? I live in a shack and my wife left me. And it's like, well, what does George Bailey have to do with that happening to him? I don't see the connection there. And of course, there's the very hilarious moment where George learns that Mary is now an old maid librarian.

Linda Holmes (8:55)

She works at the library.

Aisha Harris (8:57)

Oh, Aisha, someone might have pulled that.

Glenn Weldon (9:01)

Awesome.

Sponsor Announcer (9:01)

Where's Mary? Oh, well, I. I can't. I don't know how you know these things, but tell me, where is she? If you know where she is, tell me where my wife is. I'm not supposed to tell. Please, Clarence, tell me where she is. You're not going to like it, George. Where is she? She's an old maid. She never married. Where is Mary? Where is she? Where is she? She's just about to close up the library.

Linda Holmes (9:25)

Not the library.

Stephen Thompson (9:28)

She's a dried up old crone of 26.

Aisha Harris (9:31)

And to be fair, this movie doubles down and they marm her up. She's the marmiest school marm. Whoever marmed marm. She wears glasses because I guess not being single causes astigmatism. And it's. And they give her really chunky eyebrows, too. It's like, that's not the worst of it, George. She's adopted a rather lazy, fair approach to eyebrow maintenance. Like, will they caterpillar as they are, George? Will they caterpillars? It's so backwards.

Glenn Weldon (9:57)

The only thing missing from that scene where we see her is a cat or two or three cats just, like perched on her shoulders, just milling around.

Linda Holmes (10:05)

It would have cats now. It would have cats if it happened now.

Glenn Weldon (10:08)

But that notwithstanding, I do think that overall there are just so many great moments. And I think that James Stewart in that role. There's actually one moment. It's right after Harry, his brother, comes back. George has been holding down the fort for four years waiting for his brother to come back and take over the family business so he can finally do all the things he wanted to do. And so Harry arrives at the train station. Then Harry's like, actually, dude, guess what? Ha, ha. I got married. Ha, ha. And also, I'm gonna take my wife's father's job. He's offered me a job, so I'm not gonna be here. Ha, ha. Sorry, George. And you see, like, George, kind of like his face. He's, like, trying to hold it in. And then Cap zooms in in a close, tight shot on his face. And there's all this hustling and bustling around him at the train station. And you see James Stewart, his face just kind of like, is processing all of that information slowly, slowly, slowly. And then he, like, snaps back out of it and he's like, just trying to be okay, gotta put on the best face I can. And it's like those little moments of watching this James Stewart performance that I think really holds the glue together because it really is a portrait of a man coming undone under the weight of all of these disappointments. And I think, to me, that's what makes this such a hefty movie. Despite all the Capricorn that's sprinkled within it.

Linda Holmes (11:22)

Yeah. All right, now, Glenn Weldon.

Aisha Harris (11:26)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (11:27)

I know some of your feelings about this movie but I go to you when I just want the purely most sentimental, emotionally squishy take. So hit me.

Sponsor Announcer (11:39)

Yep.

Aisha Harris (11:40)

I think the great thinker and humanitarian Henry F. Potter said it best when he said, sentimental hogwash. This movie is so not my tempo. And that's fine. Not every movie needs to be. And, you know, it's become an annual rite for people nowadays to kind of dump on love. Actually, I have no dog in that fight. I don't care about that film because all my ire is reserved for this Christmas movie. This sanctimonious, moralistic, narcissistic garbage film. And I'm on record with this long time. Listeners will know I have been. I've been beating this drum for a long time. My issues with it are. I'm sure you'll be delighted to hear many. But let's start with the false advertising of it. Every blurb you see about this thing, every description, everything in the cable grids reads something like angel shows man what life would be like if he had never been born. That is not an accurate description of this movie. That is an accurate description of the final 24 minutes of this 2 hour and 10 minute film. It takes an hour and 45 minutes to get to the fireworks factory. A much more accurate description of this movie. Man lives life of quiet, unremarkable desperation and coddles his howlingly incompetent unc uncle until the inevitable happens. That's my first issue. Issue two. I dispute the entire premise. I issue. You mentioned it. But a truth has to be acknowledged here, which is that Pottersville rules and Bedford Falls drools. Pottersville has thriving nightlife, honky tonks, burlesque houses, jitterbug joints. Where are you going to jitterbug in Bedford Falls? Nowhere. That's where Pottersville is, according to. We just go by the crowd at Nick's. Much more diverse, much more alive than Bedford Falls. Bedford Falls is just a. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Glenn Weldon (13:21)

Diverse?

Aisha Harris (13:21)

Yes.

Glenn Weldon (13:22)

Hold on. No, no, actually. Actually you see black people throughout Bedford Falls and you do not see any black people. Except for one, I think, who's playing at Nick's Bar.

Stephen Thompson (13:32)

Keanu?

Aisha Harris (13:33)

No, there's several at Nick's as well, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm sorry. Okay.

Glenn Weldon (13:37)

I must have missed them.

Aisha Harris (13:38)

They play better music in Pottersville. Pottersville's got jazz piano and Bedford Falls, they are still singing barbershop. And if it's true, if we take his as they assert that in Pottersville they serve hard drinks for men who want to get drunk fast, then I can only infer that means gay bars.

Linda Holmes (13:55)

So you think a town run by Potter has a thriving queer scene?

Aisha Harris (14:00)

I think it might.

Glenn Weldon (14:01)

Well, it does have a library. He didn't burn the book somehow.

Aisha Harris (14:04)

That's right. So what are you going to get in Bedford Vols. By contrast, you're going to get a struggling financial district. That's a you're going to get. I don't care what. Like what's. Boring ass box socials at the Elks Lodge and phosphates at the Five and Dime and John Philip Souza at the town gazebo. No, ma'am. I mean if Bedford Falls is the Music man, which it clearly is, then Pottersville is Chicago. I know where my allegiance lies. The only knock on Pottersville, and it's a big one, is that the police escalate to lethal force way too quickly. They discharge their weapons at fleeing suspects on a crowded street. On crowded streets just for assaulting an officer. But can we talk about George Bailey? He's kind of a prick, right? He turns on people awful fast. He is a very mean drunk. And when things go south on him, he does not communicate with his wife at all. He takes it all on himself. I don't think that characters have to be likable. I think this film thinks that characters have to be likable and they just biffed it on George Bailey, who's a jerk.

Stephen Thompson (15:00)

Wait, are you criticizing this film for its nuanced portrayal of seasonal depression?

Linda Holmes (15:06)

Yeah, this is sort of like, on the one hand, it's too saccharine, but on the other hand, he's kind of a jerk. Like, the fact that he's kind of a jerk is one of the reasons why I sort of subscribe to the position that Aisha was talking about where the film is actually quite dark. And I am absolutely enjoying this uncut run of Weldonian cynicism. Let me know when you're done.

Aisha Harris (15:31)

One last thing. The cosmology of this film. We learn very early on that God responds to prayers, but he seems to prioritize by volume received because lots of people are praying for George Bailey. So God is based, basically an Internet poll. And that means that theoretically, you could spam God in this movie. I have more, but I'm gonna take a break.

Linda Holmes (15:51)

All right, so here's why I don't agree with you. I think thematically, this movie is often not appreciated for the complexity that it actually has. Which is, to me, this is a movie about the idea of living a life full of obligations and the idea of living a life full of satisfaction. And I think George feels, and many people feel, that your obligations. And in this case, he feels obligation to the community. He feels obligation to his family. He feels obligation to his brother. And because he takes those obligations as seriously as he does, he gives up a lot of other things. As Aisha was mentioning, there's this moment where because of his brothers desires and wishes, he's unable to take his trip that he wants to take and, you know, go on his big jaunt around the world. And he and Mary, I believe, miss their honeymoon because of the demands of the community. But I think the point that the movie is making is that a life in which you take your obligations seriously can, if other people take their obligations to you seriously, also can also be a life of great joy and satisfaction. Because ultimately, what makes this a wonderful story to me is that the time he has spent being kind to other people eventually sort of comes back to him in this way. And so in a lot of ways I see it as, as much as anything, to the degree it's moralistic. It's partly about the obligation of a community like his community and the people that he knows to come through for the person who has been your, you know, your champion and the, you know, your guy who made sure many things were possible. I think the reference to the cab driver living in a shack is a reference to the fact that because he developed and maintained this financial institution in this town, people were able to become more self sufficient and more independent and more people were able to own homes. That's actually one of the things I do buy, is that, you know, somebody had to develop and maintain this institution. So to me it does have a point in terms of it's, it's moral. And the reason why I buy the fact that it's dark is because there are no consequences for Potter. You don't get Mr. Potter at the end. You don't get sort of vindication for, you know, nobody ever finds out that Potter stole the money. There's no kind of loosening of his grip on the town. It's just that because these people all get together, they're able to help each other and save George. I will say this one last thing about what Glenn mentioned, which is this 20 minute chunk at the end that has essentially the hook of the movie. That's basically what the short story is. The short story is, man is contemplating suicide, says he wishes he's never been born. Angel comes and says, you've never been born. He doesn't say much about why he's so miserable, except that he has a boring and dull and unimportant life. And then the angel takes him around and his parents don't know him and his wife doesn't know him. And then he says, I want my life back. It's very short. So that's the nut that the story comes from. And what they added was this entire story about the reliance of the community on him and the things that he had done for people. And I think that's the reason why I think of that as the heart of the movie, is that that's what they put in as a driver. Glenn thinks he lives an unremarkable life. I think that's sort of the point and that's why I love it.

Glenn Weldon (19:18)

I mean, that's definitely the point. And I think where I come down a little bit more on Glenn's side of things is that it's like, there is also this sort of individualistic quality to it where it's just, like, this one man, he's the hub. He's keeping the entire community from disintegrating into madness. And we've seen that story many times. And I think there is some, for me, at least, there's a little bit of, like, ugh, okay, do we really need to emphasize this point of view? But also, to your point, Linda, I think you're right. We do not see Potter get his comeuppance. And there is this sense, granted, you have to sort of get to that conclusion yourself and think about it. But I think there is this sense that, like, even if he. Even if today is good, he's probably still gonna be depressed again at some point, because, again, he never left his town. And as much as we like to champion this idea of, like, hometown, small town, whatever, I think, like, there is value to leaving your town. And even George says he didn't want to leave his town for good. He just wanted to leave and come back. And so it's like, that added factor of, like, just wanting to leave for a little bit and not being able to is just, like, so freaking depressing and sad. And at the end of the movie, like, I'm glad he feels comfort in that moment. But I'm also like, okay, but tomorrow and the next day. And the next day, you might need Clarence again.

Aisha Harris (20:37)

Yeah. Aisha, thank you for mentioning that individualism part. Cause I think that's what I'm responding to here. Cause I was trying to figure out. I love Thornton Wilder's Our Town, which is trafficking in a lot of these same themes. You got a small town. You got how our lives touch each other. But when our town gets metaphysical in the second act, it has a very different message. It's not this, as I say, narcissistic. It's not, look how you improve the world around you. It's about simply how precious life is, how fast it goes, and how, if we could only see it for what it is, we'd value it more. I just think that's a lot more interesting take, and it's more useful. This film is about how important your life is as opposed to how important life itself is. And I think that's what I'm responding to.

Stephen Thompson (21:18)

I think there's room for both It's a Wonderful Life and Our Town.

Aisha Harris (21:23)

You're just coming with the hot takes. Thompson.

Stephen Thompson (21:25)

That's my hottest take.

Aisha Harris (21:27)

Hot take. Thompson.

Linda Holmes (21:28)

Well, and as long as we are talking about all this stuff, I will say you come out down wherever you come down thematically on this film, but there are also just a lot of scenes that I enjoy very much in this movie. I think in particular the portrayal of the courtship with Mary is incredibly charming. The little bit where they're walking home from the dance and she's wearing the robe. Even if you don't buy it thematically, I think a lot of it is written and shot in a way that's really charming.

Glenn Weldon (21:56)

It was also interesting to me to watch this closely and see how Capra brings in the immigrant story into this. In particular Mr. Martini and his family. They're like one of the first families to get the home in Bailey Park. And you know, Capra was Italian American. And to see it has this very sort of melting pot sort of feel to it that I think is very Americana. And there's a moment where Potter refers to George as like frittering his life away, but he calls them garlic eaters. And I was like, ooh. It's like, wow. Just those like little subtle moments I think are really interesting to look at and see how Capra was really trying to appeal to this very specific American melting pot, integrating identity. That plus the random black people we see in the background in certain scenes I think is just kind of like subtle but noticeable.

Stephen Thompson (22:49)

So we all agree that this is.

Aisha Harris (22:51)

A fantastic movie, essentially.

Linda Holmes (22:54)

Well, as you can tell, there are many ways to come down on this film. We want to know what you think about It's a Wonderful Life. Find us on Facebook@Facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxd@Letterboxd.com NPR PopCulture. We'll have a link in our episode description. And that brings us to the end of our show. Stephen Thompson, Glenn Weldon, Aisha Harris, thanks to you all for being here.

Aisha Harris (23:17)

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Linda Holmes (23:19)

This episode is produced by Candice Lamb and edited by Jessica Reedy. And hello. Come in provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes and we'll see you all tomorrow.

Sponsor Announcer (23:36)

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