← Pop Culture Happy Hour
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- [00:01]
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- [00:20]
Aisha Harris
The series Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed pulls you in almost immediately. A newly divorced woman, played by Tatiana Maslany, finds comfort in an online relationship with a Canboy. But that comfort is cut short by a frightening incident. Now, if you loved Masmati in Orphan Black, she's really, really great here, too. And she's surrounded by a colorful cast that includes Jake Johnson and Murray Bartlett with a sharp script that lives up to its hook. I'm Ayesha Harris. Joining me today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is culture critic Kristen Meinzer. Hello, Kristen.
- [00:51]
Kristen Meinzer
Hi, Aisha.
- [00:52]
Aisha Harris
Great to have you. And also with us is entertainment journalist Christina Escobar. She's the co founder and editor in chief of Latina Media Putaco. Welcome back to you, too, Christina.
- [01:02]
Christina Escobar
Happy to be here.
- [01:03]
Aisha Harris
So great to have you both here. So Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed stars Tatiana Maslany as Paula, a fact checker living in New York City. Those are very rare these days. Right off the bat, we're starting off strong. She's fresh from a contentious divorce from her ex, Carl, who's played by Jake Johnson. Things are still kind of ugly, though, because they're involved in this custody battle. Carl wants to move their young daughter to Idaho because his new wife, Mallory, has a job offer there. Mallory is played by Jesse Hodges. Seeking some emotional release, Paula's developed an intimate online relationship with a sex worker on an OnlyFans like site. But during one of their video sessions, he's attacked by a masked assailant. Paula reports the crime to police, but Detective Sofia Gonzalez, played by Dali de Leon, dismisses the incident as a likely attempt by the sex worker to scam Paula. Turns out Detective Gonzalez is wrong. Well, kind of. It's a lot more complicated than that. And Paula learns this the hard way, maybe the hardest way possible, all the way, so many ways that it's very, very hard. As things escalate, every aspect of her life comes under threat. And Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed is streaming on Apple TV now. So, Kristin, I'm going to start with you. There's a lot going on here, as I've already hinted. How did it all go down for you while watching this?
- [02:21]
Kristen Meinzer
Yeah, you're not kidding when you say there is a lot going on. What's happening in the first five minutes is not the same thing that's happening in the next 10 minutes, which is not the next thing that's happening by the end of the first episode or the end of the second. And I love it. I. I loved that it was fast paced. I loved that it was propulsive. I love that it was so full of surprises. And I love that this cast of characters are really good at doing the wrong thing most of the time in a way that was so enjoyable. Like, please, somebody do something right. And that's not to say that everybody is a bad person in here, but even the good people keep doing things completely wrong. And special shout out to our lead, Tatiana Maslany. She is so believable at trying her best at wearing different hats, at trying to hold it together when everything's going wrong. I've loved her since Orphan Black, and she's really, really good in this show. Very different from anything I've seen her in before, but so, so good.
- [03:19]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, yeah. I echo so many of your sentiments, Kristin. Christina, tell us how you felt about this.
- [03:25]
Christina Escobar
I liked this show, but I was. It's a little begrudging on my part.
- [03:30]
Aisha Harris
It definitely.
- [03:32]
Christina Escobar
It definitely. Caugh. I was certainly rooting for Paula. My heart was racing. I was worried, I was concerned. I wanted to watch the next episode. But there were a lot of things all throughout that just didn't make sense. Plot holes that when I turned off and thought about it for a second, I was like, I don't understand how that happened. There were some relatively annoying characters in, like, her two colleagues that get a little bit better. But, man, we spend a lot of time with them and they are very obnoxious. The plot of this show about her being a mom and the mom stuff, my daughter is around the same age as her daughter felt both really believable and strong. At some points. It felt a little emotionally manipulative at some points. I think by the end I landed on, I was happy with it. I like seeing a mom in this, like, complicated role, making mistakes, but still a good parent. But there were times where I was like, I feel like I'm being pushed in a way that I don't appreciate.
- [04:33]
Aisha Harris
Ooh, yeah. No, I can also completely understand those sentiments too. I think I land kind of in the middle, but a little bit more on Kristin's side. But I will say, Christina, you mentioned the two colleagues in the show, and they are played by Kira Hamagami Goldberg, who's playing Jerry, and then Charlie hall, who's playing Rudy. And they're basically like sort of low level journalists at the mag. They're Coded as younger than Paula is, like, probably mid to late 20s, maybe early 30s, but, like, a little bit younger and a little bit less experienced. And they. They're all trying to make their way up the ladder in different ways. What I liked about those characters, even though, yes, it did at times feel a little shticky, is kind of what I liked about Paula in general. And her placement within this show, which is that she doesn't have really any support system. She doesn't have any friends. And because of that, it makes her an easy target, as we learn from these scammers, to go after her, because she has a lot of vulnerabilities, vulnerabilities that she was extending to Trevor, the Camboy that she had this intimate relationship with, who's played by Brandon Flynn. For me, yes, there were some plot holes, but I also feel as though the stakes are supremely high here in so many ways that at the end of the day, even with all the plot holes, like the emotional truth of why those stakes are high and why she's able to find herself embroiled in this, it was enough for me, and it worked enough for me, Especially her dynamic with the Jake Johnson character as her ex. Like, just so many ways that Carl could have been this evil villain, and he is not perfect by any means. But I think the relationship. I'm not divorced. I don't have children, but, like, I am a child of divorce. And there is a lot in that that I saw in their relationship that I could understand their dynamic. And I feel like it treated their relationship in a way that felt generous. It didn't feel like they were trying to make a mockery out of what their relationship is, but I don't know. I'm curious. Kristin, do you have thoughts on their relationship and how that's portrayed?
- [06:41]
Kristen Meinzer
Absolutely. So, first, as far as the coworkers go, Christina, I totally understand what you're saying. These coworkers are irritating, but frankly, so is almost everybody on this show. That's part of what makes the show interesting. Like, even the people who have funny lines like the cops are so irritating at times. Like, why aren't you doing your job better? Some of the bad guys who are trying to fleece people or take advantage of them, a lot of them are so irritating, too. Just so irritating and flawed and driven by the worst instincts. Incompetence, greed, infidelity. It's all there. All these people are terrible. But as far as the younger coworkers, I thought it was a really useful thing to put them in there. Because the main Camboy characters who are trying to fleece people are the same age as these younger co workers. And there are things that they seem to understand more about technology than Paula does.
- [07:40]
Aisha Harris
Right.
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Kristen Meinzer
She's in her late 30s. And that extra 10 years can make a difference when it comes to how adept somebody is, how much of a digital native they are, what they're keeping an eye out for. Paula, who she's by no means completely out of touch in the world. She knows how to go onto an OnlyFans type site. She knows what a Camboy is and how to interact with a Camboy. Maybe she's not thinking about the same things as a 22 year old or a 29 year old is thinking of when they're on technology. And I got to say, I relate to Paula here. I'm like, oh, man, could this happen to me? I'm definitely the person who is at risk of clicking on the wrong thing on social media thinking like, oh, it's a Coupon for shoes. 90% off. I'm going to buy those shoes. And it's not a coupon for shoes, guys. It's not. So I'm like, okay, I get it. Like, we kind of, in a way, need those younger characters who are so irritating because there are things they just get as digital natives in a way that maybe Paula's not quite a digital native in the same way her younger co workers are. But as far as Jake Johnson, the ex husband of Paula, I don't know if I fully agree with you, Aisha, that I think that he's not a villain. I think he is a villain.
- [08:48]
Aisha Harris
Villain. Loosely.
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Kristen Meinzer
I think he and his new wife, who he was running around on Paula with, he was cheating on Paula with his coworker. Now he and this coworker are going to move across the country, literally onto the other coast, because she has a better job. And that's more important than a child actually being in their school district with their friends, with their mom. And so I'm like, you're a bad man. No, you are a weak, weak man who is just following around a woman who you think is authoritative. He thinks Paul is too flimflammy. So he's like, I'm gonna follow this authoritative woman even if her authority is
- [09:27]
Christina Escobar
dictating terrible things and doesn't match his moral compass. Yeah, I hear you. I don't think he's a hero, but I don't think he's a villain either. He's trying, I think, to do what's best for their Daughter.
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Kristen Meinzer
Oh, no, he's not. He's trying to do what's best for his pants.
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Aisha Harris
I think he wants to do what he thinks is best. That doesn't mean that's correct. Yeah, I kind of feel like that's, like, if you take all of those things together, he does really bad things, but there are moments between the two of them where you see he's at least trying. And I think he's sometimes aware of what he's doing in a way that made me. I still don't, like, feel bad for the man, but I felt like he was less of a cartoonish villain than he could have been in a different kind of scenario. Yes.
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Kristen Meinzer
I don't think he's a cartoon, but I don't think he's a good guy.
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Aisha Harris
Fair. That's fair.
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Christina Escobar
My thing with the co workers is that they start off as cartoons. As we go along, it gets better. But in the first, like, few episodes, they felt totally inhuman, shticky cartoon characters, and particularly as Paula is this, like, really interesting, dynamic human, lived in person. They really stood out to me as, like, they could have been animated, drawn in there. Like, they look so, so silly at the beginning. Yeah, it does get better. But I think that this show, one of the things that it does really well is it, like, misdirects.
- [10:52]
Aisha Harris
Right.
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Christina Escobar
So you think maybe it's going to be a standoff between Paula and one of the bad guys, and then, you know, it goes in sort of all these different directions, and in that route, those characters are able to grow. I don't actually think they fully surpass, like, fully outgrow their cartoonishness, but they do get less silly.
- [11:11]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, I mean, that would be hard to do. Right. Because there's so many characters in this show that, like, there's only so much character development we can have with them, especially when so much of their job is more as comic relief than anything else. But I do think that, as you said, Christina, what this show does a lot of is misdirect. And so within those two characters, the co worker characters, there's this sort of commentary upon journalism and media because a subplot occurs with specifically the Geri character played by Kira Hamagami Goldberg, where she is kind of like Paul is divulging all of this information to her, and there's a way in which this character is going to maybe try and use that information to better serve her own career. Right. And then even Murray Bartlett's character, I think, who he's playing, Dennis, who is involved with the scam on the other side of these things, he kind of starts off as just like, you know, this kind of bad guy in a way, And I don't think he necessarily surpasses that, but he is. Once we learn how he's connected and how all of these other things are connected, what I appreciated about this show and what it's trying to do is as someone, myself, who has been so concerned and so obsessed with this idea of reality and truth and finding all of these things and the fact that Paula is a fact checker is like a job that barely exists in media anymore. It's very hard to get to that. That's not really. It doesn't exist anymore except in very few place. And the fact that we have a fact checker and then we have all of these sort of things that get uncovered throughout the season where we learn that this isn't just a small scam, this is a ring, and it leads all these other places. I kind of like the way this is playing with, you know, this idea of onlyfans, this idea of sex work, but also how we all interact with each other and just the idea of Paula not being able to actually find pleasure. Throughout the show, Maslany has talked about how one of the things that is crucial to this character is the fact that every time she seeks pleasure, it gets upended from her. And the idea of a woman not being able to find happiness because of all these other things, like, that felt real. And I feel like that the show does a really good job of driving that point home in many ways.
- [13:29]
Kristen Meinzer
Yeah, shout out to a hot soccer coach dude, though, which that's some pleasure that presents itself to her. But will she take it?
- [13:37]
Aisha Harris
Yes.
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Kristen Meinzer
But can I just say one thing about the loads and loads of characters in this show? There are a lot of them. And even though I opened all of the singing the praises of the show, saying, I love this show, it's great, it's great, it's great. I will say in the beginning, there are two Camboys who I could not tell apart, and I should have been able to tell them apart. They are two main characters, but they are both thin white boys with floppy brown hair. And it took a second. I'm like, hold on. Is this the same Camboy? Is this a different Camboy?
- [14:08]
Aisha Harris
Well, same with me, because I think, Kristen, we may have even talked about this before. But I also have an issue oftentimes with telling characters apart in TV shows and movies, especially if they tend to be white and male. And all around the Same age. It's hard.
- [14:23]
Kristen Meinzer
Yes. You and I have talked about this before, Aisha. You and I both have this. We're, like, blind in some way to this. We have some issue.
- [14:29]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. Especially if it's a British production. It's like that's. It's over. Like, I can't.
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Kristen Meinzer
Let's not even talk about Duncan.
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Aisha Harris
I didn't even realize there were two different campboys for that. Like, maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but. Good point. I agree with that point very much so. One other thing I did want to call out was I love the Dali de Leon character of Detective Gonzalez. There's something about her.
- [14:50]
Christina Escobar
She's so good.
- [14:51]
Aisha Harris
She's so good. She's so dry. And very much about her work, we learn these little quirks she has that are just tossed off, you know, like, it's not. It doesn't upend the plot at all, but, like, we see her, she has a habit that, like, doesn't interfere with her work per se, but it's just a nice little point that gives her a little bit more roundedness and a little bit more character. And I just think she's. She's just fun. I enjoy the detectives who can be fun and dry, but also get their work done. And yeah, she was fun.
- [15:24]
Christina Escobar
Yeah, she feels like a real person. And one of the things I like about her, and you mentioned this earlier, Aisha, was like, the show really plays with, like, our understanding of reality and how you can tell, particularly with, like, what's happening online, with what is true and what is not true. So Paula really believes that her relationship with Trevor is genuine, that they have this real emotional connection and then is thrown in this tailspin when it's not. And that's one of the ways. But it's throughout the show. Right. It's her as a fact checker. It's as the characters move through and talk to each other. It's the annoying co worker friends and what they hide from each other and what they don't. And it's also in how the show is constructed with all of its multiple redirections. So it's sort of on these multiple levels. It's playing with our ideas of truth and reality in ways that I think are really smart and really compelling. And part of why, in the end, I did come down as liking the show, for sure.
- [16:18]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. I mean, this is the era, it feels of maybe just going back to Stephen Colbert even before we were in it. But, like a truthiness of, like, where is the line of, like, truth and fake and just constantly having to second guess yourself and having to figure out what is real and what is not. And what I think is interesting about that is that Paula has to you know, we talked about how part of why the co workers work or work well enough is that they are kind of the people who help her figure things out technology wise, but she also figures some things out by herself and she has to kind of get into the mind of the scammer and in order to try and get herself out of this and dig herself out of this. Of course, the more she plays and it doesn't help that Detective Gonzalez doesn't really believe her at first, but like the more she plays into it, the deeper she gets sucked in again. Maslany is just so good here and I too loved her in Orphan Black. She was playing many, many characters there and I like it. So many. I like her in this mode of playing one character, focusing on that character but also having that character just have so many different layers and shades. And like you said, Christina, she ends up in a different place than where she's at at the beginning of the show. And I think that's more than you could say for a lot of shows these days where oftentimes it feels like you're spinning wheels and not really going anywhere. And I think this is a pret. Pretty, yes, misdirecty show, twisty show, but it also is efficient and it is quite a ride. It is very fun. Well, up next, we're going to be talking about what's making us happy this week, so be right back.
- [17:58]
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- [19:00]
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- [19:30]
Aisha Harris
now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week, what's making us happy? Kristin, I'm going to start with you. What is making you happy this week?
- [19:38]
Kristen Meinzer
All right, what's making me happy this week is the book American Fantasy by Emma Straub. This is a novel about a newly divorced, newly demoted 50 year old woman on a four day themed cruise for fans that's a very thinly veiled version of New Kids on the Block. And we follow her as she navigates the meet and greets, the theme nights, the dance parties, the interactions with super fans. And also we get to follow her as she overcomes her own self consciousness and her own sense of judgment of these other people as she joins in with them and maybe taps into her own belief in herself and the things that she was embarrassed about with who she was. So it's kind of a comical story, but it's also the story of personal growth and acceptance that I think is really beautiful and really funny. And I think anybody who's ever been a fan before will also appreciate the details of how they create fan experiences on the boat. It really is just a joy. So I highly recommend that. Again, that's the novel American Fantasy by Emma Straub.
- [20:53]
Aisha Harris
Oh man, that sounds actually right up my alley.
- [20:55]
Kristen Meinzer
Oh my God. Aisha, you would love this. You with your particular interest, Aisha, I think you would love this.
- [21:01]
Aisha Harris
Yes, yes. It reminds me of a time when I went to a Disney adult dance party and it was, it was a thing.
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Christina Escobar
That sounds like a great story.
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Kristen Meinzer
As somebody who has attended Golden Con and the Bridgerton Ball.
- [21:12]
Aisha Harris
Yes, I, yeah, awesome.
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Kristen Meinzer
I felt certain things reading this book.
- [21:17]
Aisha Harris
Well, thank you, Kristen. Christina, what is making you happy?
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Christina Escobar
What's making me happy this week is Backtalker by Kimberle Crenshaw. You know, as you might expect from the woman who like coined intersectionality, there is a lot of tough experiences in the book as she deals with the intersection of racism and sexism and her sort of awakening. But there's also just so much inspiration in how to rise to the moment and how to think about pressing social issues and a real inspirational blueprint for moving forward in the world in a way that is true to your values, that is cutting edge for her time and for now, and also that is hopeful even when sometimes things feel dark. So it's definitely making me happy this week.
- [22:06]
Aisha Harris
So that's backtalker by Kimberle Crenshaw. And thank you for that. What is making me happy this week is Couples Therapy season five, which I did not realize had come out. And then all of a sudden I was like, wait a minute, I feel like Couples Therapy is back. And it was. And I've been binging this very, very heavy, emotional show. So I'm sure a lot of people have heard of this already, but this is a show that is on Showtime and is also streaming on Paramount. Plus, it's New York City based psychotherapist Orna Goralnik. She is working with multiple clients and couples all across various ages and stages of their relationship. Some of them are married, some of them have kids. There is a wide span of couples this season. A interracial couple. Another one is a Republican. And the other person that couple is not. And oh, and the person who's a Republican also voted for Trump. There's another couple where they are queer, black and brown. One of them is actually questioning whether they actually identify as queer anymore. So there's a lot going on. It's kind of like maximum pleasure guaranteed, but not at all. But in terms of all the different layers and different types of relationships that exist and, and what it means to navigate through those relationships, I just think Orna Goralnik, the psychotherapist, is just very good at talking to these couples and it's just such a fascinating thing. And it also, like, in many ways, it's about various ideas of reality and truth and like how there are always different truths and different realities, especially when you're in a couple. And I think this show just does a really good job of allowing all of these different perspectives and emotional roller coasters and watching these people try to work through issues that I think so many people can relate to in some way or another. Couples Therapy season five, Is it going to make you happy after watching it? Maybe not. But I do come away with some sort of, like, clarity and understanding. And that in itself is like, at least I'm getting something out of it. It's emotionally fulfilling if not very happy. But that is what's making me happy this week.
- [24:12]
Christina Escobar
So a different type of happy.
- [24:15]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, it's a different type of happy. Couples Therapy season five, it's streaming on Paramount plus now. And yeah, that brings us to the end of our show. Kristin Meinzer, Christina Escobar, thanks so much for being here. As always, it was such a pleasure to talk with both of you.
- [24:31]
Kristen Meinzer
So fun, so fun to be back. Thank you, Aisha.
- [24:34]
Aisha Harris
And this episode was produced by Hafsa Fathoma, Liz Metzger, Mike Katsev, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy.
- [24:40]
Kristen Meinzer
Hello.
- [24:40]
Aisha Harris
Come in. Provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next week.
- [24:53]
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