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- [00:00]
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- [00:21]
Linda Holmes
The Netflix series the Hunting Wives is a soapy murder mystery full of nudity and intrigue, a about a group of Texas women who are up to no good. If you always thought Desperate Housewives would be better if more of the housewives were having sex with each other, this might just be the show for you. I'm Linda Holmes and today we're talking about the Hunting Wives on Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr.
- [00:48]
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- [02:44]
Linda Holmes
I am delighted to say that joining me today is Katherine Van Arendonk. She is a critic for Vulture and New York Magazine who writes about TV and comedy. Welcome back. Katherine.
- [02:54]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Hello. I'm so excited to be here.
- [02:57]
Linda Holmes
I know. Also joining us is Christina Tucker. She's the co host of the podcast. Wait, is this a date? Hello, Christina.
- [03:05]
Christina Tucker
Well, howdy to y'.
- [03:06]
Linda Holmes
All.
- [03:07]
Christina Tucker
Let me say. Let me say.
- [03:09]
Linda Holmes
I know. Oh, boy. All right, we're going to get into it. The Hunting Wives begins with a woman named Sophie, played by Brittany Snow, who follows her husband from the east coast to Texas for a job working for a rich businessman and budding politician named, of course, Jed. Jed is played by Dermot Mulroney, who is not Dylan McDermott. Sophie is immediately enchanted by Jed's sultry wife, Margot, played by Malin Ackerman.
- [03:36]
Christina Tucker
Do you have a pad?
- [03:38]
Linda Holmes
I'm not sure. Let me, let me check.
- [03:43]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I. I have a tampon.
- [03:44]
Christina Tucker
Thanks, but I can't use that.
- [03:46]
Linda Holmes
She makes even that sultry. That's what we're saying. Margot's bestie, Callie, is a gun enthusiast and the wife of the local sheriff. She is immediately suspicious of Sophie and jealous of Margot's interest in her. Jill, played by Katie Lowes, is the wife of the local preacher and dotes sometimes uncomfortably, upon her teenage son, Brad. But before Sophie is even fully settled into her new 10, a dead body appears in the woods. And Sophie becomes highly motivated to figure out exactly how the intrigue among her new friends might be connected to that development. The show is based on a book by May Cobb. It's streaming on Netflix. I do want to say before we get started, there's a lot of sex on this show. We're going to talk about the sex on this show. We're going to probably talk about some of the specific sex acts on this show. So depending on your circumstances where you're listening, just be conscious of that. We just wanted to make you aware. Christina, I am dying to know, what did you think about the Hunting Wives?
- [04:44]
Christina Tucker
You know, Linda, I'm gonna have to give that a yee and also a haw because I had a darn tootin good time hanging out with the Hunting Wives. I've always have a fondness for Malin akerman. I think 27 dresses was really like a formative movie for me at that time.
- [04:59]
Linda Holmes
Agreed.
- [05:00]
Christina Tucker
I think similarly, Brittany Snow as like the late millennial I am. I'm always just like, yep, those are two women. I love to see getting work done. I love to see them working together. And I love to see them working so intimately together. I would to say this show is so silly and over the top, but with the just a right amount of winks that you're like, thank you. Thank you for spoon feeding this directly into my mouth, because I did need that. Yeah, I had a great time and I'm fist pumping for season two. Yeah, let's go.
- [05:28]
Linda Holmes
Absolutely. Katherine, how about you?
- [05:30]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, I had a very similar reaction. I was trying to figure out how to describe the show and sort of what makes the show feel different. Different than a lot of very similar shows that have come out in the last several years. And they get described as like, it's like murder and soap and it's sexy. And then you watch them and they just feel incredibly like everything about all of those elements have been dialed back and it feels very safe and very predictable and like the Hunting Wives is an actually satisfying and actually a little bit risque version of this show that you see made a lot.
- [06:09]
Linda Holmes
Yeah.
- [06:09]
Katherine Van Arendonk
And there's a scene that's a little bit late in the season and I'm not gonna describe the exact circumstances, but like, somebody is asked to describe a person who has done something to her. They're like interviewing her about this perpetrator and she's like, he was a little angry and also horny. And this, to me, as soon as I heard this line, I was like, yeah, that's the show. That's where we are. It's perfect.
- [06:34]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, actually true.
- [06:35]
Linda Holmes
When I watched this, I had basically the same reaction. I wanna make clear that, like, the reason to watch this show is that it's a good time and it's very s. But I was actually kind of interested in it as a genre piece. I think you can legitimately say this is much more than similar things actually about female desire and is almost completely uninterested in not only male desire, but like, most of the women's desire for men in this show is sort of unsatisfying to them or like, not necessarily what they want, or it's kind of like dysfunctional, corrupt in some way. And most of the women in the find their most satisfying sexual relationships with other women. I mean, that was my sense at least. It's not that there aren't men having sex in this, but it's like there are even some times when, you know, women who are interested in having sex with each other kind of find their way to that by kind of putting like, well, but it's really with these men, but it's not really us. It's really. I was interested in how that worked.
- [07:40]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, there was a lot of interesting, like actual queerness kind of baked into it. I think there is kind of what's to be said about the character of Margot? I think, like, she's kind of just approaching life with a very hedonistic energy. I think kind of anything, probably sexually, is on tap for her. But I do think, like, the experience that Sophie has in her relationship with Margot and then with the relationship we learned she had once in her life later in the season is really an interesting, like, actual kind of conversation about, like, what she has repressed, what queerness. Maybe she's repressing where that has led her in her marriage and also later her life. Yeah, you know, of course, I'm ha, ha, ing. I'm ho, ho, ho ing. But I was also going, hmm, yeah, interesting.
- [08:21]
Linda Holmes
Oh, okay.
- [08:23]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. The way that the Sophie character is introduced is this very classic fish out of water. She's like, I'm a liberal. I'm from Boston. I don't to do with all these conservative women. And then it turns out very quickly that she has all of these constraints that she has put on herself. And it's not that the show is saying that sort of a liberal person or a conservative person, like, actually, your expectations are wrong. Like, it's not trying to do a. Like, whoops, it's backwards. It is instead a just much more complicated depiction of sort of what all of these women want, where their expectations for themselves have come and how they have figured out the way to negotiate something that is equally uninhabitable, sort of from both sides. Yeah. It is so easy. And I have seen so many things that are this very simplistic. Like, you are like this, and A plus B equals whatever. And this is.
- [09:16]
Christina Tucker
Has no interest in that math. No, not at all. Just none. And I do think, like, something that made me feel like this was a cut above the ones that feel a little less satisfying is. I hate to say it, but I think it's because of the body count. I do feel like this show took death in a way that was like, this is serious and quite dark, so.
- [09:35]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Oh, see, I absolutely thought you meant body count in a Love Island USA sort of a way.
- [09:39]
Linda Holmes
I did, too. I did, too. But you mean deaths.
- [09:41]
Christina Tucker
I mean, like, the actual deaths. I mean, I do think both body counts were important.
- [09:44]
Linda Holmes
There's some death in it.
- [09:45]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, there is some death in it. And I feel like at a time where I feel like we are walking towards, like, this suggestion of, like, oh, all of these people are dead, but, like, then we do, like, a jk, Everybody's still alive. It was kind of satisfying for a show to be, like, Nope. Murders have been committed, and that's happening.
- [10:00]
Linda Holmes
I think that's right.
- [10:01]
Christina Tucker
I was like, yeah, you're just really sticking the landing in a way. I think a lot of shows feel like they pull back from.
- [10:05]
Katherine Van Arendonk
And even before landing, it feels like so many streaming seasons are like, we're gonna do it. You're gonna watch the whole season, and then the finale, something's gon and you spend episode after episode just waiting for them to get to the part where it's fun. And the Hunting Wives is like, it's gonna be fun for minute two. The other thing that Christina and I were texting about when we were first watching this show, she was like, I'm gonna turn it on. And I was like, put on a timer and just see how long before you get to full frontal nudity. It's gonna be so, so short. And I think it is really setting those expectations from the beginning. But then doesn't just let that be, like, a fun thing. It's, like, great. Every single episode, you're gonna have something like that.
- [10:46]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, You' to reading these kinds of thrillers about women and their close friendship. And you get to really, you know, be like, the way she stepped between her legs when they were, you know, shooting a gun. I bet that textually means something. And then the show is like, it does smash cut to the next scene in which they're actually doing that. Like, you're like, oh, okay, gotcha.
- [11:04]
Linda Holmes
Well. And, you know, we played that clip in the intro of Margot asking for a pad and them having a conversation about does I have a tampon? And all that kind of stuff. And directly after that happens, Margot just kind of drops her dress and so that she can stuff toilet paper in her underwear because she doesn't have a pad. It is a kind of disarming frankness. It's sort of like you have this thing of, like, is that sexy? If that's sexy, why is it sexy? Like, it's bracing. I think for Sophie, the idea is just she's shocked by this because of the frankness of it. So it's very hard for her to separate out. Like, on the one hand, I'm seeing this gorgeous woman's naked body. On the other hand, she's just experiencing how kind of uninhibited she is about her body and her period and all that kind of stuff. Stuff we've referenced a couple times. There's a lot of sex in this show, but I don't think the sex in the show is random. Like, no, it doesn't feel like it's just supposed to be, like, just everybody having sex with everybody else. It's very often, like, the kind of sex that people are having is specific to the moment in the story. And what is the power relationship between these people? What are they getting out of this sex scene? What are they getting out of this relationship? And I think, like, you know, I don't necessarily believe in, like, all sex scenes should be as explicit as possible for the sake of being as explicit as possible. But there are times when. When you distinguish between the different sex acts that people perform, sometimes that has something to do with what's going on between them. And I think the show, in a few cases, like, does make an argument for that.
- [12:39]
Christina Tucker
Yes, there is pegging on this show. There is, in a way that got my living room of rowdy homosexuals to hoot. And. And what was interesting about that scene, not only was it kind of like one of the first depictions I can really recall seeing, certainly on a Netflix program, but, like, certainly nothing that explicitly.
- [12:58]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Right. Cause it's not just the act. It's also how much you can see and the way that it is shot.
- [13:02]
Christina Tucker
The way that it's shot and that they don't cut away from the post of it. Like, there is a continuation of that scene that makes it feel lived in and not for shock value, in a way, even though it is both shocking not only because of the act, but also because of the conversation occurring during the act, which is in another way, great character development. And it does tell you something you need to know more about, like, this couple. Yeah, it's, like, so silly, but also so interesting. And that's, like, my favorite intersection of things when I'm, like, having a ball, tee hee hee ing. And then I'm going, oh, but interesting.
- [13:34]
Katherine Van Arendonk
There has been in a lot of prestige television for many, many years this conversation about the way that particularly HBO shows like Game of Thrones will add sex into scenes or there will be, like, exposition that's happening with sex in the background as a way to be like, see, you're learning about the world building, but also those naked ladies always happening behind you. And honestly, if you were to tell me that this entire show were built as an elaborate joke on that idea and, like, a way of subverting the entire premise of, like, what if sex is just this way of catching your attention? I mean, it is so much work to actually figure out why a character would be having the kind of sex that they are having in that moment, and how much information is too Much information, like how much is a viewer's brain actually still going to be able to receive from a plot perspective while they are also watching the pegging. It is really masterfully done, I think, in that respect. I think the other thing about it is, as we were saying, it's unusual to see on a Netflix show. This was not originally designed as a Netflix show. It was originally meant to be on Starz. And I do think that there is something on Netflix, because so many shows look the same, not just sort of have the same structures and same patterns, but, like, the cinematography is very the same. I noticed from the opening credits of this thing, I was like, somebody spent way more money on the credits of this than I feel like is typical for a Netflix show.
- [15:04]
Christina Tucker
I miss the credits every time. We were like, these bang.
- [15:06]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, that's right. And, like, your eye wants something new after a while, you know, it's nice.
- [15:12]
Linda Holmes
And I also feel like this aesthetic of sort of Texas or the west, you know, a lot of cowboy hats and stuff like that has become so hot right now. And when I saw kind of like the key art for this and, like, read the basic description, I was like, is this, like, Yellowstone with women? And so I was pleasantly surprised that it doesn't feel retro to me. It doesn't feel, you know, like it's kind of longing for a different era of television. It feels contemporary to me. One of the other dynamics that I like, the fact that it updates. And you sort of alluded to this Christina with the thing about, like, when she steps between her legs, hunting. That's probably means something. It's so common to see these stories about women who become obsessed with each other, and it's so rare to see that actually acknowledged as, like, that's probably because she's hot for her, right?
- [16:08]
Christina Tucker
There's a gay reason for the feelings.
- [16:10]
Linda Holmes
That you're having, as opposed to just, like, if you think about something like single white female or something like that, you'll see, like, the jealousy of the boyfriend. And, like, they'll almost go there, but they won't quite go there in terms of like, she's obsessed with this woman because she's so hot for her. And I sort of like the fact that they just go ahead and they say, okay, if you're going to do a story of, like, a woman's kind of, you know, becoming obsessed with and fixated on this woman that she meets who she's fascinated by, like, the word fascinated has sometimes, like, covered up so much.
- [16:41]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, absolutely.
- [16:42]
Linda Holmes
And I think with this they're like, Like. Yeah. Like, in the same way that if she was straight and it was a dude, like, you would understand what it means that she's fascinated with him. You know what I mean?
- [16:51]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, absolutely. I do want to say. I do want to just fight Sofie's husband. I don't know where he's at, but I don't really want to fight him. I just want to push him into, like, a wet pile of leaves or something. I just. That guy. I just. Bleh, bleugh.
- [17:03]
Linda Holmes
Yeah. Push him in a pricker bush.
- [17:04]
Christina Tucker
Yeah.
- [17:05]
Linda Holmes
There are really not a lot of, like, super good dudes on this show, I will say that.
- [17:11]
Christina Tucker
No, I mean, I'm always happy to see my King Dermot. I'm just like, yeah, what do you mean?
- [17:16]
Katherine Van Arendonk
And he's really good in this.
- [17:17]
Christina Tucker
He is absolutely giving me that big text in. He's yi Han as much as I have in this episode. You know, he's having a time. Yes.
- [17:25]
Linda Holmes
He's a jed who could only be a jed.
- [17:26]
Katherine Van Arendonk
That's true. Yeah.
- [17:28]
Linda Holmes
And if I have a quibble, Margot is having an affair with a high school student. I am over that as a thing that is treated as scandal rather than what it actually is, which is very dangerous and, you know, bad for people. I think they kind of want you to think, like, he's 18, he's about to go to college. But it's like, I was over that when they did it on the WB shows of the 90s and aughts. I do not like that story. I wish they had not done it.
- [17:54]
Christina Tucker
Yeah, we could do something else there.
- [17:56]
Linda Holmes
Just put him in college. It's not that hard. It's so much less weird if you just put him in college. But other than that, for the most part, I think they navigate all of this, like, with a certain verve and.
- [18:08]
Christina Tucker
Also certainly with verve.
- [18:10]
Linda Holmes
I would say it's like you said, it's silly, but it's also, like, weirdly transgressive at times in a way that I appreciated, you know?
- [18:19]
Christina Tucker
Yeah. I like when silly, like popcorn TV makes me think, like, 10% more than I need to. I think that's fun and I think that's interesting. And the show gave me that. And a lot of ladies having sex, which I love. Yeah.
- [18:31]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. It's the amount of thought that you can if you want, but don't have to take out of it. And I truly just could not get over how much it was like, this is how Taylor Sheridan shows think that they are plotted and are not. Right. This is the kind of, like, density of betrayal and surprise that they believe that they are regularly providing. And it is because there's this intense attachment often to needing people to be heroic. This is not a show that has any kind of hang up about, like, I need to have to root for these people. It has totally discarded the shackles of relatable and is just all the way out in pegging zone. So it's really delightful.
- [19:15]
Linda Holmes
Yeah.
- [19:16]
Christina Tucker
Yeah.
- [19:16]
Linda Holmes
I think they did a decent job of leaving the door open for another season for themselves without putting me in a position where I got to the end and I was like, after all that, you didn't give me anything.
- [19:26]
Christina Tucker
Right. It gave us questions, it gave us answers. And then it also was like, and if you had a couple of more thoughts, you could go this way. And I was like, okay, that's fun.
- [19:35]
Linda Holmes
Right?
- [19:35]
Katherine Van Arendonk
The information matters. Like, whether or not it was a satisfying answer to those questions matters. The pacing of them matters. But the thing that soap operas know and that so often streamers forget is that it should be as interesting to watch people learn that information as to see the answer itself.
- [19:54]
Christina Tucker
Yes, absolutely.
- [19:55]
Katherine Van Arendonk
And how people receive it, how it then spreads among the network, that's the story. Like, the answer is not the story. And in particular, I wanted to just call out Britney Snow's incredible ability to just have aghast facial expressions when she learns something.
- [20:12]
Christina Tucker
Your eyes are so big.
- [20:13]
Katherine Van Arendonk
As a millennial, I have Britney Snow being aghast sort of etched into my brain. So I know what's coming. I know the expression. And then you see it and you're like, she's just flummoxed. She gonna do it angry or she gonna do it, like, overwhelmed this time. And every time, it's fun and satisfying and it understands how to play to those beats.
- [20:32]
Christina Tucker
Yeah. And similarly, I will say Katie Lowe's, who I've loved since Scandal, it's just so fun to get to, like, watch her kind of do something that I was like, wow, this, like, slightly Marcia Gay Hardin esque role for you. I'm like, I'm loving it. I'm loving it.
- [20:45]
Linda Holmes
I mean, I think they're genuinely having a great time with the acting and sort of with these really, like, over the top doesn't feel adequate. There are parts of it where it's just so ridiculous in a really enjoyable way. And yet they kind of manage to pull it back now and then so you can actually feel like it's a person, it's a human, it has a humanity to it. And I do think A lot of that is down to Britney Snow and also Malin actor who I think really has figured out this femme fatale erotic thriller lead thing, pitched perfectly and is really just playing the heck out of it. And you see her really going for it in certain moments and also kind of able to pull it back to that very cool, you know, Sharon Stone kind of like energy of iciness, but also sometimes this energy of over the top sexiness. And I think she's great in this. I had such a good time watching her in this and I hadn't really seen her do this exact thing before and I, I was glad for her. Good job.
- [21:50]
Christina Tucker
Yeah. This is like a fun update on like a type of character that she often gets. Like, she's often like, you know, is hot, like, as her character. But it's fun to give her like a little more edge.
- [22:00]
Linda Holmes
Love it. Well, we want to know what you think about the Hunting Wives. Find us@facebook.com PCHH that brings us to the end of our show. Katherine Van Arendonk, Christina Tucker, thank you so much for being here. I would not have wanted to talk about the Hunting Wives with anyone else.
- [22:16]
Katherine Van Arendonk
What a delight.
- [22:17]
Christina Tucker
Thank you. It was an honor.
- [22:18]
Linda Holmes
This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Liz Metzger and Mike Katsiff and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes and we'll see you all next time.
- [22:36]
Sponsor Announcer
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