B (2:59)

Joining us today is host of NPR's It's Been a Minute, Brittany Loose. Welcome back, Brittany.

E (3:03)

It's good to be here. Thank you so much.

B (3:05)

I am so happy to have you here. This is gonna be a very fun conversation, just like the show. So the Traitors. Here's how it works. Alan Cumming and his adorable dog Lala host a bunch of celebrities in a Scottish mansion for a social deduction game. At the beginning of the proceedings, each player is assigned a role trait or faithful. Now, generally speaking, traitors know who each other are, with a rare exception we'll get into in a bit. And they work together to winnow down the faithfuls through manipulation and secret murders. Faithfuls, however, have no idea who's a fellow faithful or a traitor. It's their job to sniff out and banish traitors by vote. During roundtables, though there's always the risk they end up mistakenly eliminating a faithful instead. And mild spoiler here, but they almost usually often end up mistakenly eliminating a faithful instead. In between all the deception, there are challenges to collect money to add to the cash prize pot at the end. So like previous seasons, this one has included celebrities across various pop culture universes. You've got Real Housewife Candice Dillard Bassett, comedian Ron Funches, Olympic skaters Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir, and on and on and on. The Traitors is streaming on Peacock. Glenn, I'm going to start with you. The floor is yours.

C (4:24)

I was hoping the floor would be mine. Good, good. Look, I went into this season being a fan of Ron Funch's, a fan of Monet X, change a new Johnny Weir because he introduced a couple Eurovision semifinals. Everyone else? Nope. I mean, I had a bad feeling about Michael Rapoport because I got sensory organs and a pulse, but other than that, nothing. I mean, and I'm surprised. I'm watching the show. I'm always surprised because this is labeled as competitive reality. But the competition is just vibes and it's nothing more than vibes. And I like my competitive reality to have and professional experience and be a little less Stanford prison experimenty. But I'm in. My first impression of Rob, the guy who's making it all the way to the final, was that there wasn't a lot under all that facial symmetry, which of course is his strategy, which is exactly what he wanted me to think of him. He wanted to be easily dismissable or seem it. He's that hot guy from high school who you crush on from the distance, but then you talk to him one day and realize he's so basic, like you need to redirect your energies. But he's playing a good game. It was a good game until this last roundtable when it became Traitors Legendary. Now, is this guy benefiting from pretty privilege? Of course he is. But when it comes to his gameplay, when it comes to the specific choices he's making in his gameplay, I don't think you can say his looks mean. He was born on third base. Second base, though. I'd say definitely second, because he knows how to use that privilege. People are just drawn to attractive people. That's what attractive means. And so he lets people lean into him. They come to him. He's withholding. He is most importantly still. And in an environment that's as rife with paranoia that feeds on paranoia, like this environment does, you are going to be drawn to a calm presence, even if they're wearing overalls. And this last episode was a testament to that. Where he comes into the round table with a target on his back and gets that target moved. Not, I think we'd all agree, not by virtue of any compelling argument he makes or any evidence he presents, just based on hot calmness. And I want to be clear, Natalie is hot, too, but she was coming into that roundtable with agitation and urgency. And that is an energy that every faithful recognizes. It's the energy that they see in themselves, and they don't want to be reminded of that, so they banish it. And even though he is now on everybody's radar in a way he has not been all season, I still think this is Rob's to lose.

B (6:48)

Interesting. Okay, I agree with almost everything you said, although I would add hot white boy privilege, definitely, as you hinted at with Natalie, it's a different thing. Hot white boy privilege, you can do practically no wrong oftentimes in many situations, and we are seeing that play out in this show for sure. Now, Brittany, I understand this is your very first Traitors. You're a baby traitor.

E (7:13)

I'm enjoying it this season. I'm enjoying it. I'm having a good time. I will say, though, the people that are left over right now are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Which, to your point, Glenn, it does make it a little tough to watch. And I'm not even like a strategy, like, reality game person. I think I saw the first season of Survivor when it came out when I was, like, in middle school. Yeah, I just was, like, watching Maura and Johnny and Tara rub them little brain cells together. It's kind of painful.

B (7:40)

Maura Higgins, who is from Love Island. Same universe as Rob, with a very, very thick Irish accent.

E (7:47)

Yeah, I love her accent. Adorable.

B (7:49)

Well, Britney, I want to ask you, how familiar were you with any or some or most of the people on the show?

E (7:56)

Okay, anybody who was from Big Brother or Survivor. I did not know who they were. And anybody from, like. Like the one. There was a woman there from Real Housewives of Dubai. I just thought she was a random Australian lady. I don't even know if she's Australian. I just was. I was rubbing my little brain cells together. I didn't know who she was, but pretty much everybody else I was familiar with or had some idea of, as long as they were not from Survivor or from Big Brother. Cause I just don't watch those. I don't know anything about them.

B (8:24)

It's interesting to think about because I'm kind of in the same boat as both of you. I knew I could say two people on the show before this. Ron Funches, who I love, and I think he's great, and we should talk more about him in a minute. And also, as you mentioned, Glenn Michael

E (8:38)

Rapoport, I think he got banished because he's just so unpleasant.

C (8:41)

Yeah, absolutely. That's clear. It.

E (8:43)

I think he annoyed everybody, and he annoyed me as a viewer.

B (8:46)

No, he's the definition of bro. Clock twice a day. Because, yes, he was absolutely so annoying. But every once in a while, he was, like, sniffing in the right direction. He'd be like, why are we not looking at the two hot guys over there? And he was referring to Rob, and I think he might have been referring to Steven Coletti, who is, of course, from One Tree Hill.

E (9:06)

Who says he's from One Tree Hill, but he's really from Laguna Beach. Yeah, yeah.

B (9:10)

Let's be real here. But he was one of the few who occasionally he would sniff in the right direction. He'd be like, ron, you eat weirdly. You annoy everyone, and you just, like, have no. You're so uncouth, and yet sometimes you're right. But so, like, going into it, like, not knowing who these. Most of these people are, I'm like, what is the draw here? Because I'm sure there are a lot of people who. Because there's so many people and they're all from different places, it's like, no one's gonna know everyone. So what is the draw here? And I think for me, at least, the draw here is the way that so much of this can map onto the way people act in real life, socially. I mean. Yes, it's a Game. Yes. There's all these theatrics and contrivances, but at the same time, as we already talked about, like, with someone like Rob, it's just so funny how everyone's like, oh, it couldn't be Rob. It couldn't be Rob. And it's like, at some point, are we going to look at the guy who, like, is always just laying in the cut, just, like, chilling, very quietly, what are we doing here? And then the way things switch so quickly in roundtables from without anyone actually really having to do anything. I think of Candice, the Real Housewife of Potomac, and how she was a traitor for a while, and she was quite good at it in a different way from Rob, but then she let it get the best of her. She decided to be petty because Robb saw that Lisa Rinna was getting heat, and he was like, well, if you're not gonna play, then we're gonna have to sacrifice. And he understands at least a little bit, like, yes, hot boy privilege. But as you said, Glenn, he also is pretty good at strategiz to a point. It's that plus the fact that most of these people are not very. They're not very good. Like, there's just too many factors at play, and it feels like real life, because oftentimes you are operating off of emotion, right? Not strategy.

E (11:00)

My impression, this being my first season of Traitors, is that Traitors is basically like an office workplace. Even thinking about who they selected as the initial traders this season, you have Candace Dillard Bassett from Real Housewives of Potomac, you have Lisa Rinna of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and you have Rob from Love Island. And these are people that probably would not hang like that in real life. However, they are pushed together by the bounds of their workplace. Like, they are a trio of people that I have seen, like, a type of people that I've seen before that really bang with each other at work, would, like, eat lunch together, would take their breaks together. I think that that's kind of like gets people so into traitors is it's a bunch of people that are from random places doing totally different stuff with different skills, who are forced to have to cooperate with each other at times and then also sort of, like, jockey with each other and then other times, like, you might be plotting against them or they might be plotting against you, you know, to figure out, like, who's gonna speak first at the meeting or who's gonna get which vacation days off. And I think that that aspect of it, these sort of, like, unlikely Bedfellows who also are, like, constantly going friends to lovers, to enemies, to lovers to friends to enemies. I don't know. I just think that's something that a lot of people identify with. And, like, also, too, people who do well in those environments, in real life are also the people who tend to do well on Traders. How many clueless white guys who are cute have any of us worked with? Don't know anything, Wouldn't know how to open up PowerPoint? How many women of color get thrown under the bus in the workplace? And sorry, not speaking about Candace. Candace played bad game. Natalie got thrown under the bus. Candace played bad game.

B (12:51)

Yeah.

E (12:51)

And then also, too, like, how many people are really good at reading the room as Rob has been. I think he's actually played really good game for every episode except for the penultimate episode of the season. Like, some people are just really, really good at reading the room and figuring out who they need to kind of like. Like when they need to go with the flow and when they need to transgress. And those are people that tend to do well in the workplace. And I just think. I don't know. To me, traitors is like. I think it's something that most people can relate to, maybe more than they realize if they're not thinking about it that way.

C (13:23)

Okay. But I accept, Britney, that everybody on this show, just about everybody in the show, does have exactly the same job. Most of these people's jobs are to be on reality tv.

E (13:33)

But they fulfill different roles, though.

C (13:35)

To find their light, to produce themselves, to produce their own storylines, to create drama, to make sure that the producers cut to them and that the editors don't leave them on the cutting room floor. That's why it feels so squishy and meta. And that's why, even though it calls itself a social deduction game, this is all social. No deduction. The faithfuls willfully dupe themselves every time into believing that they have some evidence, that there's some basis for actual deduction. There never is. There is only vibes on this show because you can accuse someone of traitor behavior all the time. It doesn't mean anything because there's no definition for it. It's whatever you want it to be. So this is just confirmation bias, the game. And that's why I just. It's mob justice. And I'll allow that manipulating people is a social skill. It's just squishy. It feels more social experiment than game to me. But that's me off in the corner arguing over semantics by myself. I don't care.

E (14:28)

I think you're right, though. It is definitely more social experiment than game. The game, I don't think, is that well constructed. I think maybe that's why I didn't get into it the first time I watch it, because I was like, the game's not picking up. And also, I think it was like between second season of Traitors and House of Villains, and I'm just a little tackier. And so I went straight for how I was like, whoa, Jax Taylor and Tiffany, Tiffany New York Pollard. I'm like, sign me up.

B (14:52)

I want to see Tiffany New York Pollard on the show. I have said this on the record.

C (14:55)

You have said this before.

E (14:56)

She would be so good.

B (14:58)

I can completely agree that mostly it's just vibes. Also the fact that the rules are constantly changing all the time. Even this season was the first time, I think, at least in the US Version, where they have a secret traitor, where, like, there's a traitor in the midst. But, like, the other traitors don't know who they are and the faithfuls don't know who they are. This season, it was none other than Mama Kelsey.

E (15:23)

Donna Kelsey, the most obvious secret traitor. Clearly, I've never even seen the show before. And I said, why is this lady here?

B (15:28)

She's just like, I'm just a mom.

E (15:31)

I'm just a mom.

C (15:32)

What did you guys think of the secret traitor thing? In theory, Because I like it in theory, not an execution. I agree. But I loved getting a taste, a small one of what the faithfuls are going through because the Internet loves to pile on every season. Not just this season, Brittany, but every. It's like the faithfuls are idiots, but the not knowing and the thinking you don't know, but then having suspicions but then doubting those suspicions. That is the heart of this game that we don't really get a sense of at home.

B (15:54)

Exactly.

C (15:55)

What the secret trader does is give you a better sense of that. I didn't like the feeling of not knowing who it was, even though it was very obvious. But I loved the moment of the reveal being part of it in that way and feeling a little bit more empathy, I guess, for these idiots on the show.

B (16:11)

The secret traitor aspect of it I thought was very interesting, and I kind of wish that had been allowed to play out a little bit longer. Cause like you said, it was way too obvious. And it also gave the faithfuls an early. Too much like, ooh, we got someone really early. We're good at this. And then, of course, the rest of the show, they have not been as good. There was one moment this season where it was less about vibes and more about actually trying to strategize and hold on to some evidence, and that was Ron when he heard Portia slip up and say something that suggested that she might have been a traitor. And was she? No, but he was literally acting on actual evidence. He said many times as he came into this house, like, I don't know any of y'. All. I'm gonna try and play this game, actually, because that's the thing. Right. It's also. And maybe I think, Glenn, you've seen maybe some of the non celebrity versions of this, but, like, the thing about the celebrity version of these shows is the fact that most people know at least one or two other people in the house or have worked with them before. Oh, sure, there's relationship, which adds to all of the dynamics and the drama and whatever, But Ron was coming in like, I'm just a comedian and I'm here and I don't know any of you. I loved that because you got a taste of, like, how you might move if you didn't actually know anyone and how that might actually make for a more interesting game. Now, was he wrong a lot? Yes. But he was still trying to play the game like the way ostensibly it should be played in an ideal world. Right.

E (17:42)

I mean, I see. I disagree. I don't think he was playing an ideal game simply because he so rejected the social aspect of the game. And that, to me, was a part of the reason, I think, why he was wrong a lot. And also part of the reason why, for me, I sometimes felt a little bad for him because sometimes I felt like he was kind. Like people were kind of misreading him.

B (18:05)

Right.

E (18:05)

But I also felt like he was like, I don't want to get to know any of you. I don't want to talk to anyone. And I'm like, I'm sorry, dude. Like, unfortunately, the way that the game is constructed, it's like, so that you all are constantly having to interact with each other also. That's a good strategy for getting information from people. Side note, I knew that this season did not have people who were gonna be super smart at the game because somehow they believed that Johnny and Tara didn't know each other.

B (18:37)

I'm like, don't even get me.

E (18:39)

Just put your thinking caps on for a second. How big is the world of Olympic figure skating that you think they just

B (18:46)

wouldn't know each other? And they're around the same age, so it's like, it's not like they wouldn't have still.

E (18:51)

But like, I think that, like, you know, obviously I feel for Ron as a person who came in not really knowing anybody else. Yeah. So I could see how that would probably feel very strange because you're like, these people are so. Because they're also a lot of them are bizarre. So you're like, these people are weird as hell. I don't know who any of you are. There's a lot going on. But unfortunately, the way the game is constructed, the fact that it's a reality television show, even if you are on a more cutthroat show like a Survivor or a Big Brother, your social game, however you want to approach it in whatever way works for you, is unfortunately something I think that is just a built in part of the gameplay. And it's not that he tried it and he failed at it. It's that he was like, I don't care to engage in this at all. And I'm like, well.

B (19:34)

And I do want to jump in here and just note that, you know, Ron funches after his time on the. He's talked about how it kind of made him reflect and he was hearing from people who were watching the show saying, like, oh, I see a lot of you in me. I'm autistic. And so he actually wound up going to get an assessment. And so he's kind of started the process of looking into that for himself. He said, you know, I had a son. He talked about this in his standup comedy. He has a son who is autistic and he always thought of himself as an ally. He's also described the experience as some type of cruel trauma being on the show. But, you know, at least he's finding something about himself. And I'm just so happy to see him having this glow up and being well received. He's just a fun guy and I'm really happy. And I was such a fan of Ron and an even bigger fan now.

C (20:26)

Yeah, I empathize. I mean, that's the game I would want to play. I would want it to be based on evidence. Even if it's evidence I mistook and it's just not. You're absolutely right, Brittany. That's not this game. This game is too squishy.

E (20:37)

But also, though, how do you get evidence you have to have whether your social game is talking to people or maybe trying to sit a little bit further back in the cut and watch, which I'll say like, Eric is always wrong too. Eric knob always wrong.

C (20:52)

Always wrong.

E (20:53)

Yeah, but he was really good at sort of like kind of sitting back and just kind of going with the flow. I do think that part of gathering evidence, you have to interact with people whether you like it or not, to actually gather the evidence. Like, when Ron got his evidence of Portia, he got it from listening to a conversation. So I just want to jump in and say that, like, I think the evidence is important, but how are you going to gather it if you're not interacting with everybody else?

C (21:18)

And speaking of always wrong, but being always wrong with style, I mean, let's talk about Maura. She is thoroughly entertaining. I don't think she's going to win, but I think she's worty of a win. She and I should be friends. I think we'd be tick as thieves and we could go see Wuthering Heights, and I liked how far she'd come. I think she could go farter. And finally. Last one. This is my last one. I kind of wonder if she was ever, you know, out in the grounds doing those challenges. If she ever. She ta puddy tat. Was tat ever a ting? She taught cheetah.

B (21:52)

Wow.

E (21:52)

I liked Moira. I was a fan of her hosting after sun, which is like the end of week, sort of like after show for Love island, because I am a Love Islander. I think she's thirsty for Rob. I think that is blinding her.

C (22:06)

She is so deep in his pocket, she's practically lint. Yeah, that's a problem. But how do you think this is going to end? Because on paper, Rob has been playing in drag race terms. He's having a Bob the Drag Queen Bianca Del Rio season. He is coasting to the end. I don't see Rob splitting it with Eric, because in Rob's mind, Eric hasn't earned it. He's just ridden along now. That's why Rob chose him, because he wanted somebody to be, you know, just do what I say. But I think Rob is going to ride that horse until it collapses, and then he's going to pick up a saddle and cross the finish line on his.

B (22:39)

If we are to believe that Rob is as empathic as he has been saying he is throughout this entire season, he's always like, yeah, who's saying that?

C (22:48)

He is.

B (22:49)

So maybe I am also too drawn in by his beautiful, chiseled face.

E (22:54)

See, I watch Love island, so I'm

B (22:56)

like the occasional moments when his son. Is he from the South? I don't even know. But sometimes he's.

E (23:00)

Yeah, he's from Alabama. That's where I thought his and Ron's relationship was. Very sweet.

B (23:03)

The country boy thing.

C (23:04)

He's Alabama all the way.

B (23:06)

Yeah. Yeah. So if we're to believe that, like, he might help Eric, he hasn't shown so far any sort of, like, inclinations of cheating Eric. He's told Eric when someone else says his name. I mean, he did the same thing with Lisa, and he tried to save her, but she just kept digging herself and then jam, jam, jam, jam. Orocho, who was from Survivor. The kiss, the kiss, the kiss, the

C (23:32)

kiss, the kiss of dang.

B (23:35)

So, like, I don't know. I think it's possible. Possible he might just keep it for himself. But I kind of think. I hope Rob shares it with Eric, even if he hasn't kind of. He hasn't earned it.

C (23:46)

Eric wasn't great as a faithful. He's a lousy traitor. His strategy as a trader is flop sweat and silence. And that's not. That's not a good strategy.

B (23:53)

He is such a muppet. It's.

E (23:54)

It's.

B (23:54)

It's both adorable and frustrating.

E (23:56)

He's confused by everything, but with certainty. I can see that he's confused, but he's like, I'm not confused. I know. I know whose handwriting that was.

B (24:05)

Remember when he was like, I'm a singer. I know. I can tell people's, like, voices while blindfolded.

E (24:11)

It's like, you don't know what's going on. I think that Rob's gonna win it all, and I think that Rob's gonna keep the money. I don't think that Eric. I just think that Eric is extremely valuable to him right now.

C (24:22)

Exactly.

E (24:23)

I think they could have maneuvered more. I think. Well, at least I think Rob could have maneuvered more easily with Kristen there. Cause Kristen already suspected Eric, so he could have just let things play out like how they played out with Lisa. He could have gone with the flow and then, you know, kept on moving and then picks, like, Maura as his co trainer or something like that. And really coasted all the way to the end because Lord have mercy. Again, great. After sun host. But, oh, Maura's sister. Traitors is not your forte.

B (24:49)

Okay. You have swayed me like I was at the round table.

C (24:53)

There we go.

B (24:54)

You are probably right. And I still think he should have picked Kristen instead. Kristen Kish, of course, who was a host on Top Chef. I just think instead of Eric, she probably would have been a smarter choice.

C (25:07)

Agreed.

B (25:07)

But you know what? It is what it is. Rob cannot be perfect all the time.

D (25:12)

That's true.

C (25:12)

Brittany, I have one recommendation for you. Your next season of Traders should be Celebrity Traders uk. That is the platonic ideal of what this show could be if they drew contestants exclusively from the ranks of actors, comedians, musicians, journalists, athletes. I mean, there was one YouTube guy, but people with actual life skills instead of people whose job it is to go on shows like this.

B (25:38)

Thank you.

C (25:38)

It's genial and funny and warm and friendly competition. It's going to sour you on Traders because after that season, like, that's the one that's closest to my heart. This is fine.

E (25:48)

You say it's this season of UK Traders or UK Celebrities.

C (25:51)

There's only one Celebrity Traders UK so far.

E (25:53)

Celebrity Traders.

C (25:54)

And that's the only that there is.

B (25:55)

That's gonna be my next one.

C (25:56)

The host is different. The dynamic is different. Alan loves making fun of these, you know, fatuous reality show people. Claudia Winkleman, who's the host on the UK version, really is really pulling for everybody. She just wants everybody to do their best. It's a different vibe, but it's great. Some of the same challenges you'll see elsewhere, but a lot of fun.

E (26:12)

Thank you for the rec.

B (26:14)

I love that recommendation, Glenn. Although I do. Look, I love Alan Cumming. He had one of my favorite moments of this entire series so far that I've seen, which is when and Jam Jam was murdered. And his line was jam. Jam is toast. Toast. Yes. So perfect.

E (26:32)

So perfect.

B (26:34)

Well, friends, we have come to the end of another roundtable. We are fully locked in for this finale. You should let us know what you think about the traitors. Find us on facebook@facebook.com PCHH that brings us to the end of our show. Glenn Weldon, Brittany Luz, thanks so much for being here. And, Brittany, welcome. Welcome to the Turrets. It's so lovely to have you here. Thank you.

E (26:58)

I'm so happy to be here. And thank you all for welcoming me to the Traders family. I'm excited to check out Celebrity Traders uk.

C (27:04)

Thank you.

B (27:04)

Yeah. Yeah. And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org happyaur or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathoma and Mike Kassif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next time.

A (27:39)

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D (27:53)

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