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- [00:01]
April Dunford
Welcome to the Positioning show, where we discuss topics related to the practical application of positioning for marketing, sales, and product teams. I'm April Dunford, a consultant, author, and the world's leading expert on positioning for B2B technology companies. Hey, welcome to another edition of the Positioning show with me, April Dunford. Hey. One of the things I get asked a lot about is the relationship between positioning and messaging and how is that different from copywriting? And I know a lot of the companies that I work with struggle in this translation between positioning and messaging. And I thought it would be great to bring somebody really smart about this stuff on so we could have a good discussion. So I'm super, super happy today to announce that we have Emma Stratton joining us. I first met Emma a while back, like, we were on a virtual panel discussion together. And I had never met her before and I was not familiar with her work. But at the end of the panel discussion, I thought, wow, who is this person? She's really smart. I call her up and we should just, like, I don't know, talk and hang out and stuff. And so we did, and I feel very happy to know her. Anyways, the next time I bumped into her was at a. A conference. And she gave this great talk on how to create jargon free messaging. And it was so good. And it was really impactful on me personally because let me tell you, I fight the battle against jargon every day around here and I don't always win. So, in fact, sometimes, sometimes I catch myself using some terrible tech jargon, you know, like next generation, advanced, whatever. And I find myself thinking, like, what would Emma say in this situation? So I thought everybody here would enjoy hearing a conversation with her. She's actually working on a book. Maybe by the time you hear this, the book will be out or almost out, but she's working on a book on messaging. It's called Make it how to Write Simple Tech Messaging that Wins Hearts, Minds and Markets and little secret. She let me read an advanced copy of it, and man, it's good. Like, it's so good. I. I have often been asked by people, where's the book on messaging? Like, you wrote the book on positioning, April, but where's the book on messaging? This book is going to be the book on messaging. I'm so excited for it to come out. Anyways, Emma and I had a great conversation. I think you folks are really going to enjoy this. Let's get right to it. So, Emma, so great to have you on the podcast. We've been talking about this for, like, 9,000 years. I feel like, Like. Like, I feel like since the dawn of time, I'm like, yeah, we should get you on the podcast.
- [02:45]
Emma Stratton
It's a long time coming. I'm just glad the day has finally arrived.
- [02:48]
April Dunford
The day has finally arrived. It's amazing. Look at us. We're doing it. We're not just talking about it. We're doing it. I'm so excited. Um, hey, so, you know, like, so the background here is like, you and I met.
- [03:02]
Emma Stratton
I don't. I don't.
- [03:03]
April Dunford
I forget how we met. At a conference or something. Oh, no. We were on a panel together talking about positioning. And, you know, I'm the positioning lady. So usually I'm on the panel and there's other people on the panel talking about positioning, and usually I think those people are idiots. I shouldn't say that, but that's, you know, the truth. And you came on this panel, in my opinion, smashed it. And I was like, oh, who's Emma?
- [03:26]
Emma Stratton
She's amazing at this.
- [03:27]
April Dunford
We should hang out. And then I, you know, and then, since then, we met at conferences and stuff, so I thought you should. You should come on. And in particular, I thought you had a lot of smart things to say about the relationship between positioning and messaging. And that's the thing that I get asked about a lot. So I thought, hey, come on, come on. The old podcast, we talk about that. And so I thought maybe. Maybe a good place to start. Like, so for everybody listening, can you give us a bit of a background? Like, how'd you get so smart on this stuff? Like, you know, where'd you come from, anyway?
- [04:00]
Emma Stratton
Oh, man, I don't know where I came from, April. But in many ways, I do think I was weirdly put on the planet to do this work. So, I mean, way back, I was. I'm one of those people who was born a writer. So just some people are born day one. They know they want to write, but then you grow up and you're like, how am I going to make money? And so I spent a lot of time.
- [04:23]
April Dunford
Sometimes those things don't line up. Yeah, I hear you.
- [04:26]
Emma Stratton
They don't line up right. So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out, you know, what to do with this skill that I had with words. And, you know, I tried a lot of things, but where I first found a home that felt right was when I got into brand and marketing when I was living in the UK and I did brand messaging for consumer packaged goods in Europe. So, like, toilet paper and Shampoo and deodorant and then things like that. And it was my job to like connect with consumers, make them feel something about a product, make them choose a product over another. I really loved the work and you had to do a lot with just a few words. And I was doing that for a couple years and then I moved to the States and I wanted a job with a short commute. I think I wanted an easier life in some level. And so I accepted a job at a B2B marketing agency, thinking naively that it would pretty much be the same. Like we're marketing products to people at the beginning.
- [05:28]
April Dunford
We all think B2B. B2C, same deal, right? It's all the same.
- [05:31]
Emma Stratton
Humans, Humans. And yeah, that's what everyone says.
- [05:34]
April Dunford
It's all people, people buying stuff. It's all the same. And then you. And then you do it and you're like, oh, yeah.
- [05:41]
Emma Stratton
So my first client was this enterprise data management company and it was like a smack in the face. I was like, I don't understand this. This is so technical. This is so opaque. And it was just scary. But what I realized was that this company had a serious messaging problem and that actually this jargon heavy technical speak was not serving them well, that they were really relying on a couple shithot salespeople just doing their thing. Not unusual, right? But they were confusing people. So anyway, because I didn't know better, I was like, well, I'm just going to apply a lot of principles and kind of ideas that I already have about writing to you. I'm going to make this simple. I'm going to connect to the human you're trying to reach. I'm going to try and translate this complicated platform into outcomes and superpowers and things that your buyer wants. And it worked. And I think my brain works in that way where I find things simple. I just know how to make things simple. And so I just got hooked. And from that point on, I was like, I just want to do this. I see this problem everywhere. I saw the problem everywhere. This messaging that made no sense. So I said, In 2015, I'm going to start a consultancy and I'm just going to do messaging for B2B tech companies. And people were like, that's 2016. It was like end of 2015, 2016.
- [07:05]
April Dunford
Oh, we started consulting around the same time. I think I was around the same time, 2016, something like that. Yeah, must have been a year. Must have been in the air.
- [07:13]
Emma Stratton
Yeah, it was like in the air. I just thought I was just like, this is a huge problem. And at first it was a lot of me telling people they had a problem or waking people up to the problem. There was a lot of that. I'm sure you probably remember that as well, having to kind of tell people. But just over the years, I just started working with more and more companies. And so I've worked with so many companies on their messaging across technologies, company stages, the tiny early stage, the famous household names, different technologies, hundreds of companies. And of course, when you work with so many companies, you see the patterns. You understand that there really are these kind of core things that people struggle with. And that's when I got to the point, after doing it for quite a few years, I thought, I want to teach marketers how to do this, because I was aware that there wasn't this kind of one standard or best practice that people could fall back on. They were grabbing templates or maybe they learned on the job. So I started teaching marketing teams at tech companies my approach to messaging, how to do it. And when you teach people how to do something, you kind of go even deeper and learn it all over again. So, short story here, April has said, I've spent a kajillion hours of my life thinking about this stuff.
- [08:32]
April Dunford
Yeah, you make a really good point about that. You know, I think it's. I think it really is. It's one thing to know how to do something and do it for a client. Like, do it for a client. It's really another thing to say, I'm going to teach a client how to do it. Like, you just need to understand it at such a deeper level because people are going to come and ask you their questions and be like, well, why don't we do it like this? And why don't we do it like this? And you'll. You just discover very quickly where the gaps are in your understanding of a thing when you have to teach it, versus just, I'm going to come in here and do it for you. And don't, you know, don't ask me any questions, just look at the results. Very different thing. I, you know, I like, I like what you said about, you know, messaging. I. I'd like to ask you the question, because I get this question all the time. And so I want to hear your version of it. Like, talk to me about the difference between positioning versus messaging versus copywriting. I mean, these are all in my mind, these are very distinct things. But to a person that doesn't come from marketing and isn't involved in any of those Things, they often think they're the same. And so how do you talk to people when they say, like, wait a second, isn't this just copywriting or isn't this just positioning? Like, where does messaging fit in that spectrum?
- [09:45]
Emma Stratton
Yeah, I. People mix it up. I mean, marketers conflate them. It's just really common. They really do. Some of the worst offenders. But I mean, I agree with you on that.
- [09:57]
April Dunford
Some of the worst offenders, like, can we just say I'm going to go on record to that? Other marketers are sometimes the worst. I'm like, why? You're supposed to understand this.
- [10:06]
Emma Stratton
And I do. I feel like they. They do kind of lean on positioning really hard too. I think copy sort of gets neglected, but it's either it's positioning or it's messaging, no matter what it is, I've found. But yeah, so of course I love your definition of positioning and I use it a lot. But if I were to kind of simplify it, I think about positioning as its strategy. Right. It is defining what your product is, exactly who it's for, and the unique value it offers those folks. Its strategy. Now, messaging is how that positioning comes to life through a handful of messages.
- [10:45]
April Dunford
And.
- [10:45]
Emma Stratton
And it is how you consistently articulate that unique value to your buyer in a way that you know is going to grab them. And messaging to me is part strategy, part writing. So there's a writing element, but there's still that strategy element where you're figuring out how do I actually translate that positioning into the first set of words? Then copywriting comes after. Copywriting is how you take that messaging and you flex it depending on the channel you're using and the action you're trying to drive. It's very action oriented, trying to get people to do something like learn more or get a demo. And copywriting. While there is strategy within copywriting, I see copywriting as it's full on. Writing it is about how do you take that message and flex it in different places? So that's how I define the three. And in that perfect world, we do them all. However, when I do messaging engagements with clients, I am often doing a bit of positioning because there's almost always some positioning work that needs to be done. Then I make the words sound nice. That's a bit of copy because people want that. So there's a purist approach, but I think there's a real world approach where they do blend. And that's what I see a lot.
- [12:12]
April Dunford
Yeah, you talk a lot about messaging that's punchy and I really like your ideas around this stuff because I've seen you talk about this a couple of times and so can you talk a bit about that? What do you mean by punchy and what's good messaging look like?
- [12:27]
Emma Stratton
Yeah, so punchy was just one of those words. So when I worked in consumer, everyone would just be like, oh, can you just like make that punchy? And I bet marketers listening have been asked that or have asked someone to make something punchier. So I think punchy has always been a vibe for me. You know, it's like, it pops, it's bold, you know, it, it stands out. And so that's why I named my company Punchy. But actually the Cambridge dictionary defines it really well as. Let me get the official. It's. It's expressing something effectively and with power, often using fewer and shorter words. And that is just.
- [13:04]
April Dunford
I love this definition so much actually. Like, this is, like this is what we're going for all the time.
- [13:09]
Emma Stratton
Yes, it's what we're going for all the time. You know, I talk to so many people about marketing, marketing about messaging, and the biggest thing that everyone says is I say too much. I don't know how to be concise. I go on and on and on. I'm using too many big words. I want to sound more human and bold. And so Punchy is taking that vibe to B2B tech that there are some corners in B2B tech that sorely need that vibe. I'm sure you'd agree.
- [13:39]
April Dunford
Oh yeah, no, this is, there's no question about it. Give us an example. So you know what I love when you do a talk at a conference is you give a bunch of examples and sometimes you'll throw a thing out. And I was sitting in the audience the last time I saw you speak and you know, a few of them you throw out and you're like, yeah, that's pretty bad. But a couple of them you threw it out. And I was like, oh, I don't know, that's not that bad. And then they, and then you show you. Then you show the better one. And I'm like, oh man, that's so much better. What? You don't even know it's all that bad until we get good stood up beside it and then you're like, oh yeah, that's way better. So yeah, can you give us an example?
- [14:16]
Emma Stratton
Before and after verse is good. Yeah, so like a not so punchy typically characterized by long ass words after another, after another, so long that you hear it and you're like, what did that say? So an example would be accelerate the identification, diagnosis and resolution of issues across complex IT environments. So what did I just say, April?
- [14:43]
April Dunford
There was a lot of shuns.
- [14:45]
Emma Stratton
Yes. Too many shuns.
- [14:49]
April Dunford
That doesn't sound so good. That sounds.
- [14:51]
Emma Stratton
It doesn't sound so good.
- [14:52]
April Dunford
Good.
- [14:52]
Emma Stratton
And I'm like, I don't know what that means. So the punchy version would just be find and fix issues quickly across your IT landscape.
- [14:59]
April Dunford
So much better.
- [15:00]
Emma Stratton
Right. So punchy is easier to absorb. It's just easier for someone who's reading it to get what you're talking about and actually have a shot at remembering it three minutes later.
- [15:13]
April Dunford
So have you ever been in a situation where you know? Because I'm sure you have because you've worked with B2B companies. So B2B companies really love their jargon. So they get deep, deep on the jargon and get into it. And some like. The vast majority of that jargon I feel is completely unnecessary. They're just, they're used to saying that word. And so that's the first word that comes to mind. Even though there's way simpler word that you could use, occasionally they do have a technical word that's meaningful. Like, is there ever a case where you think a little bit of techie word is okay? Like if the buyer is super technical or whatever and everybody kind of understands what this thing is and like, how do you draw a line between too much jargon, not enough jargon? Little bit. Is a little bit of jargon okay? Or should we be trying to get rid of all of it?
- [16:03]
Emma Stratton
Yeah. So you know about the technical buyer, because people do ask that a lot. So if there is a technical term that is important and meaningful to the audience, it's the best term. It's an important, specific term.
- [16:17]
April Dunford
Absolutely.
- [16:17]
Emma Stratton
You can use it. You know, I'm not saying to spell out API for developers or anything like that. You know, if it's a technical term that matters. Right. That would be bad. That would be bad because then you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. So you do need to build credibility. I think the offenders that can always go are the business y ones like leverage, utilize, orchestration, and then a lot of those marketing fluffy ones like transform and reimagine and game changer. A lot of those words just there's a simpler alternative that you can swap out. In fact, I have swaps. I have a thing where I've got some simple swaps you can make for those.
- [17:05]
April Dunford
Give us the Swaps.
- [17:07]
Emma Stratton
Okay. I hate accelerate.
- [17:11]
April Dunford
Why.
- [17:12]
Emma Stratton
Why do we see accelerate so much? We are not writing about cars, April.
- [17:21]
April Dunford
Oh, man. I'm an offender on the accelerate. I think. I think I'm accelerating a lot of things. That's why you don't want me doing messaging for you. I stay in my positioning lane because, like me with the Excel, I would be accelerating the hell out of all kinds of stuff if you let me write. But, yeah, no, accelerate.
- [17:38]
Emma Stratton
It's just.
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April Dunford
It's overused and it. And, like, I don't know why we love that word so much. We love that word in tech.
- [17:44]
Emma Stratton
We love that word, but just try speed up instead.
- [17:48]
April Dunford
Speed up is way better in 90% of the situation. Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. You got another one?
- [17:56]
Emma Stratton
I mean, I hate leverage. Just say use leverage.
- [18:00]
April Dunford
You.
- [18:00]
Emma Stratton
I hate leverage. I don't know. I hate it. You know, use. You know? Okay, implement. Now, I know implementation is different, but just the verb. Like, to implement something, it could just be do, do. It, do it just do.
- [18:17]
April Dunford
Yeah.
- [18:19]
Emma Stratton
So it's. It's things like that. It's the words around that. You want them to be plain so you can have those technical terms that need to be there, but it's all the other words around them like accelerate and implement and leverage and utilize. Those things can be swapped out, and it just makes your message easier to understand.
- [18:38]
April Dunford
Yeah.
- [18:39]
Emma Stratton
You know.
- [18:39]
April Dunford
You know, one that I. That comes up a lot is that. That I'm. I'm always having this conversation is when people talk about their product, they feel like they have to put a qualifier on it. Like it is a solution versus a platform versus a tool versus something else. And. And I feel like, as tech people, we ascribe a lot more meaning to those words than the customer does. Like, I'm curious about that, because I'm always trying to talk people out of platform. One, because most of the time, like, in. In the technical sense, the thing we're talking about is not a platform. We just wish it was a platform. And then two, I don't even think customers know what's the difference in a platform. And the thing that is not a platform, like a suite versus a platform, we think that's meaningful. I don't think most customers think it's meaningful. You ever get into that?
- [19:38]
Emma Stratton
Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah, that platform. The. Are we a platform? Should we say we're a platform, you know, aspiring to be a platform? Yeah. I always tell them, look, customers are not obsessed with this word like you are. They don't. It doesn't have the same meaning. I think you're absolutely right. You know, for tech people, it's got all this, these connotations of value and mission criticalness and unrip ability and all these things and right, like, oh, we'll get in there and they won't be able to replace us if we're a platform. And I think customers are like, they're just glossing over that because everyone's saying there's a platform, they're a platform. And no, it doesn't have the impact of the oomph that they think it does.
- [20:23]
April Dunford
Yeah, I blame the VCS for that one because there was a period where the VCS were like, if you're not a platform, then you know, there is no longer term play for this thing and blah, blah, blah. So then people just said, oh, you want, you want us to be a platform? We stick that word on there. That's their fault. Yeah, that's what I think. But I don't know. But you know, I blame a lot of things on vc, so I should probably shut up about that. Coming back to that though, like, you know, the customer's perspective, like, what do we need to know about customers in order to write good messaging?
- [20:51]
Emma Stratton
Like, so the first thing is you need to know who that customer is and you have to narrow down on that customer. I mean, that's where it starts. And that's the thing that I see companies like so resistant to doing or they have such a hard time, they fight me when I say we need to really, the more narrow and specific we can get on a customer, the better. And you know, I'm talking whether it is not just a one Persona or one type of company, but even a mindset, a level of awareness. It's just this need to first get very clear on who you're talking to and acknowledging that it's not everyone. And I know that sounds so simple. It's such a core piece of positioning. Right. But it's something that I find customer companies really, really struggle with. They don't want to, they want to sell to everyone. And that is the first problem that you may never get over trying to find something that appeals to everyone. So that's the thing that I see the most people having issues with. I think once you do kind of know, all right, here's who we're speaking to. So a lot of times people, I'll ask people, okay, how experienced are your buyers with solutions like yours? Are they sophisticated, they totally get this, or are they new to it? Because that will really change.
- [22:20]
April Dunford
That seems like a really important thing to understand.
- [22:22]
Emma Stratton
It's a really important thing to understand kind of how aware they are. But what I find with a lot of companies is we have 50, 50. They're like, we have, some of them have a solution like ours already and they get it and they know what this is. And the other half have never had a solution like this and they don't know what it is. So they say, well, who should we speak to? So in which case I talk to them about, well, you've got to think about where you're trying to go, what are your growth goals? Like, where are you trying to expand into? And then choose that person and kind of skew the messaging a little bit into their favorite while not completely alienating the other. But so first defining who you're talking to, but then also understanding how much do they know about solutions like yours that will help. You know, okay, how much do we need to focus on differentiation? How kind of technical or specific do we need to be in benefits versus do we just need to help people understand the value of this new thing? So that will really kind of change how your messaging will manifest.
- [23:31]
April Dunford
Yeah, I love that idea. Like, this targeting thing is very hard. Like, you know, I think there's a core piece of your positioning to figure out, like who's a best fit customer. Let's define that. You know, for our, for our marketing and sales efforts, we're trying to focus on that, that profile of a best fit customer. It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean, you know, we, we. If somebody outside of that comes and wants to buy something from us, we don't, we don't say no. But no, you know, a friend of mine had this great expression and he said, you know what, we're aiming at the flag, we're aiming at the pin. But we want, you know, it's okay if we just, we just want to land on the green. It's like, okay, that's a good way of putting it.
- [24:09]
Emma Stratton
I think that, I think that's a really good way of putting it. That must, does that put people at ease?
- [24:14]
April Dunford
I think so. A little bit. Yeah. Like, you know, if they're golfers, otherwise they're like, what you talking about, lady? We don't know to know your customer kind of a situation. But yeah, I want to talk to you about headlines because I'll tell you, this is my, my personal pet peeve. I don't know what it is. There is a certain kind of person and in almost every workshop I do. And I don't touch messaging. Like, like what we're trying to do is get the team in agreement and alignment around, you know, who do we compete with? How are we different? What's the value we can deliver? Who we going after? What's the market? We're going to win. And then, and then we'll get into sales pitch, bit of that. But usually the companies handle messaging themselves or they work with somebody like you on the messaging bit. But, but there's always a person in the room that is like, you know, we're, we're like halfway through this exercise and they be like, stop, stop, stop. I've got it, I've got it. Accelerate, innovate, procreate. That's it. And I'll be like that. I don't know what that is. I think it's a tagline. But that ain't what we're doing here. Like, people are weirdly obsessed with taglines. I don't know what it is. I think in their little heart of hearts, they're like, I got a great tagline in me and someday it's just going to come out and it's going to be so great that we literally don't have to say anything else. We're just going to say this tagline and everyone's going to go that. Give me that. Slapping the card down for that, even though I want that thing. But anyways, I. So taglines, headlines. And the great part about being the positioning lady is I'm kind of like, look, we're going to put copywriting off to the side. We're going to worry about that later. We're going to do headlines later and you're going to work with somebody who's an expert on doing that stuff. And we as a team, as a group, who are not copywriters and suck at this stuff, trust me, we don't want to do this. But talk to me about headlines. Like, because you again, the last time I saw you talk, you said some great stuff about headlines and had some smart ideas on how to write headlines. You want to talk about that? Because I think that my listeners love headlines, man. To the point where I'm like, stop loving them so much.
- [26:29]
Emma Stratton
I just have to just give some space to that. Innovate, procreate, accelerate, headline. Like, I have a whole long post that I wrote about hating those three word with period three word thing.
- [26:42]
April Dunford
Why does anybody do it ever? It should stop.
- [26:46]
Emma Stratton
Because to and this to anyone. No shame if you've done it. Because I think we've all probably written one in our lives at least. But I think from as a marketer, when you have all that background knowledge, you see all the meaning that you've jammed into each one of those three words, you might have touched on all three product pillars. And so to you, you're like, I've nailed it. And to an outsider, they're like, what does this even mean? So it's exactly it.
- [27:12]
April Dunford
I think that's it. We're so close to it. Those words feel so meaningful to us. And then, you know, again, a customer comes at it and says, you know, innovate, explorate, participate.
- [27:27]
Emma Stratton
So there's a great, there's a great. Just building on that. Have you read Made to Stick?
- [27:34]
April Dunford
Yes.
- [27:35]
Emma Stratton
Yeah. So they talk about the curse of knowledge, that cognitive bias, but they talk about that sociology experiment that proved it. And it always sticks with me because it's that three word headline idea where they would tell someone to think of a song and then they'd sit in front of another person and say, tap that song with your fingers. And so they'd be like, going like this, tapping to the beat of whatever song they're thinking. And the other person is like, I have no. What? I have no idea. You're just banging on that table. And they'd be like, come on, how are you not getting this? And they start hitting harder. How do you not get this? That's what's happening with these headlines.
- [28:15]
April Dunford
Oh, man. Well, this is it. This is it. I think. I don't know headlines. Why?
- [28:20]
Emma Stratton
Yeah, so headlines, right. So I, I teach marketers how to write headlines in messaging. And, and my thing at Punchy is I want to give you simple techniques that you don't have to be a fan, you don't to think you're a writer to be able to use them and get a good result. Because I believe that really any marketer can do this. So one thing I do to get people going is give them prompts to kind of get them thinking about the right idea. So one prompt is, you know, finish the sentence. Imagine if you could blank. That's to help you get an aspirational headline. Now this one, I found so much success with more technical folks or people working on a highly technical product where you tend to get quite robotic and very kind of with everything. That prompt really pushes you into that future state that your customer is trying to get to. Sometimes you can get some emotion tapping into, you know, what they want and how they would like things to change. So that prompt can get you in that space to understand what do I really want to talk about in this headline. And then when it comes to writing headlines, I have all kinds of little formulas and little tricks to kind of zhuzh up your headlines, make them more interesting. Because a headline's job is to get attention and make you want to read the words that come after it. So. And also when you think about everyone who's looking on a page, about 80% of people will read headlines, but only 20% will read the body copies. So you want to put some effort into those headlines to try and get people interested. So one that I really like, that I love to share is, you know, if you have a kind of vanilla, straightforward headline, I'm trying to think of an example right now. Like, I don't know, you know, accelerate, innovate.
- [30:27]
April Dunford
But like, but you see lots of ones that are like, you know, accelerate your accounting or something like this.
- [30:33]
Emma Stratton
And you're like, all right, yeah, exactly, accelerate your accounting. So I think we try and go, ta da. You know, we're trying to go like, it's awesome. And we feel like using language like that is conveying this is awesome or this is new. And really, if you can just be specific and maybe more clear about this new superpower they're going to have, that's going to be a better headline. So let's see. So, for example, about accounting, it's like, close your books without ever having to open a spreadsheet. So that is specific and it's very clear on this new superpower you're going to have. It's like, oh my God, I'm going to be able to close my books without needing to go into a spreadsheet. I don't even know if that's possible. I don't understand accounting, but you see what I'm saying, getting more specific around the superpower they're going to have and kind of adding some detail so they can really picture in their mind that is going to be a more effective headline. Because if that's all they read, they're going to have a really good takeaway as to what your product can do for them. So I'm a big fan of can you get a bit of detail, a bit of specificness in that headline that may either help someone really grasp and picture what you're talking about or connect to perhaps some differentiation that you want to highlight.
- [32:02]
April Dunford
Anyway, I think that specificity is such a big deal. Like, I think, you know, when I'm working with companies and we're talking about differentiated value There is a tendency for companies to go way too vague on that stuff and they'll just be, well, the value is speed and it's like, speed of what, like where, how fast, speed of what? And like, and, and half the time the speed's not even the value. It's, it's something that happens because of the speed, you know, and so then it's like, well, let's get really specific on that. I'm always using the example of like, you know, I live in Toronto in the Toronto airport. At one point all the ads were HSBC and they used to have these billboards and then, and they'd say like together apart. And I'd be like, are you a bank? Like, what are, like what am I supposed to, what am I supposed to do with this together apart thing? You know, And I feel like a lot of the clients when I'm working with them and we get talking about value prop stuff, they get so vague with it that, you know, any company could say this, it would, is just as big. But we, the more specific we can get on it, the more it retains the differentiation. So I like that a lot. Hey, so, you know, I'm letting the cat out of the bag here, but you're working on a book that's exciting.
- [33:18]
Emma Stratton
Yes.
- [33:18]
April Dunford
And I have seen an early version of this book and frick, it's great. I'm so excited about it. I'm so happy for you. Like, I can't wait till this book comes out. I feel like it's, you know, people always ask me like, have you got a good book on messaging? And I'm like, no. Like that's, isn't that weird? Like, isn't it? Like, why can't I point at a decent book on messaging? Like there's a thousand and one books on copywriting, but I feel like messaging is its own thing and there isn't a good resource on that. And so I'm super excited that you're going to write this or you've written this book. It's coming soon. I'll let you talk about when. And what I like about it is it's my kind of book. It's really actionable. I feel like we have too many books in marketing that are just concepts and big picture idea books and we don't have enough books that actually teach people how to do stuff in their day to day life. And I feel like this book is really full of these really practical things that, you know, somebody that's wrestling with this stuff inside a company can Then go and take and like, do stuff with right away. So, you know, can you give us a little preview of like, what's the book all about? And maybe give us a few ideas of like, kind of things we're going to learn when this glorious book comes out?
- [34:34]
Emma Stratton
Yes, absolutely. And of course, your book inspired me to write my book, so. Yeah, it really did. Because when I read your book, I think I came across an article of yours and it was before the book was out and I got on your waitlist and because I was like, oh my God, someone's writing a book on this. And I read an article that you wrote somewhere on like Hacker Noon, and I was like, oh my God, this is genius. You know, And I remember reading your book and I was like, this woman is my spirit animal. She sees the world like I do. Like, she sees things like I do. And I. So it was just this beautiful thing when we met and you were like, I wanted to write a book, but I was gonna. I was on this like five year plan. And you were like, just go write the book. And so I did.
- [35:20]
April Dunford
Oh, I know. I remember we were having that conversation. You're like, thinking about writing a book and I'm like, write it now.
- [35:25]
Emma Stratton
I know. And I, I did. I wrote it in six months. I was like, all right. And by the end of the year, it was written so. So, yeah, super excited.
- [35:34]
April Dunford
And unfortunately it takes a while to get out. Like after you've written the book, then there's this whole process to actually make a book happen after that, which sucks. But, you know, it gets there eventually.
- [35:43]
Emma Stratton
And you read the ugly word document version, you know, now it looks a bit prettier than when you saw it.
- [35:49]
April Dunford
That's great. I can't wait. I can't wait for this book to come out. I'm excited for you.
- [35:52]
Emma Stratton
Yeah. I mean, like you, there's no book on. On messaging. So honestly, this book, I wanted to answer every question that I had been asked by so many marketers and founders over the years. That was my goal. I was like, I'm going to give people a process to do messaging from start to finish. As I have done it over the years and throughout, I'm going to make sure I answer every single question I've heard. And when I was kind of mapping out the chapters, I had all the questions and reader questions that I wanted to answer. So that was the inspiration. I want to give people a handbook that's dog eared. I want a book that, you know, people are able to just kind of go back to when they need to and be able to do messaging. Because messaging is hard. Okay. I've been doing it for so many years now. The more I do it, the harder it seems to me. Because, you know, back in 2015, 2016, there was a lot less software companies, SaaS companies back then than there are now. And differentiation is harder and everyone's shouting the same thing, so it's hard. Now layer on top this you have to write, which is inherently hard and I think triggers something in people like a fear and nervousness as well. Yeah. And marketers are expected to just know how to do it and be able to kind of whip it out in two seconds. So I wanted to give people a process that they could go. And it's my process which acknowledges that sometimes we have to do a bit of positioning work in the beginning, and then sometimes the messaging, it can't just be this dour statement. Like it's got to be something that sounds kind of good, so it's got a bit of copy and it takes you through that process. So it's starting from, well, what is messaging and what framework am I working towards? And I have a very minimalist one that I suggest that can be used in kind of any situation. And then it goes into, you know, deciding who are you speaking to? So that, that tough, tough question of who's my audience? And then how to kind of really understand the problems and the desires that they have that are actually going to motivate them to make a change. Because sure, we got lots of problems, but only some of them are actually meaningful enough to get people to want to buy some really expensive software. So go into that, you know, we, we talk about capturing, you know, your product's unique value. So that's kind of a place where it connects with positioning. And then I kind of take you through how do you think through a messaging framework? How do you think through hierarchy? You know, how do you plan out? How do you focus on just, you know, a core idea, not try and boil the ocean with your messaging. And then it gets into the brass stacks of how do you write the damn stuff? How do you write the headlines? How do you write the benefit messages, have a story framework, and then a bit on implementing it, what to do once you're done. So it really is that kind of start to finish approach to messaging. It's part strategy, part writing, and that's what the book's about.
- [39:10]
April Dunford
I just think it's so awesome. I can't wait till it's out. Like I think it's going to become one of these books that, like anybody in marketing that touches messaging, which is a lot of us is going to want to have this book on their table. So I'm so excited. Where can people find you? Like, if people want to get. Are you taking, are you getting people on a list yet? You know, well, when's it coming out?
- [39:30]
Emma Stratton
Yes, the book comes out September 9th. So 9. 9 is the 9.
- [39:35]
April Dunford
9. Oh my gosh, that's so. That's actually soon.
- [39:39]
Emma Stratton
I know. It's actually. I can already feel like the year is just like racing away with me. I don't know where April went and it's going to be here before you know it. But you can go to Punchy Co book and you can sign up just to be notified when it goes on sale. But I'll be on LinkedIn where I always am talking about it all the time. Talking about this stuff all the time. As we all are. As we all are.
- [40:09]
April Dunford
Okay, so we, and I can, when we write up the show notes for this, we'll have a link to that so that people can go and, and, and find your stuff. Well, listen, thanks so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I think this was awesome discussion and again, like, I'm so excited for your book. I can't wait till it comes. I think everybody's gonna freak out and they should because this is super necessary needed thing that's coming. So I'm stoked about it.
- [40:35]
Emma Stratton
It's necessary needed success. That's it.
- [40:42]
April Dunford
That's it. There's a three word tagline for everything. This is going to be the name of this podcast from here on in. We just put it there. Done on that note. That's it. There's nothing else to say.
- [40:54]
Emma Stratton
Nothing else to say. Thank you so much, April, for having me. It was so fun as always to chat with you on all things marketing.
- [41:01]
April Dunford
All right, thanks so much. Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you're listening to this podcast and you're thinking to yourself, hey, my company could use some help with positioning. Maybe we should talk. So as a consultant, I work with tech companies, but very specifically B2B tech companies that have a sales team. I don't really have a size requirement. I work with very, very large businesses, but I also work with growth stage companies that are as small as 10, 20, 30 million revenue. The work I do with companies is focused on getting a very tight definition of how you win in the market and then taking that and translating it into a really compelling story that clearly answers the question, why pick you over with the other guys? If you're interested in learning about how we might work together, you can visit aprildunford.com consulting thanks again for listening.