Christina Quinn (2:43)

Many years ago as she was driving home late one night.

Abigail Marsh (2:47)

This happened as I was crossing an overpass into the city. A little dog, a little orangish dog, ran right out into the freeway in.

Christina Quinn (2:55)

Front of my car.

Abigail Marsh (2:58)

And I did. I Think what many people instinctively do, which is swerve to try to avoid it. And that sent my car into, first a fishtail and then a spin across the lanes of freeway traffic, miraculously not hitting anybody, until my car came to rest in the fast lane of the freeway, facing backward into the oncoming traffic. And the engine died.

Abigail Marsh (3:22)

I was pretty sure that I would also die because I had no phone, I had no way of escaping. There was no shoulder even to escape onto. I basically sat there panicking until I heard a stranger knock on the half open passenger window and turned to see this man standing there. He had a shaved head. He. I think he was wearing a suit, but also a lot of gold jewelry. He was a black man. I think he had on sunglasses. Even though it was almost midnight. He had a very calm, reassuring voice. And he, you know, when I turned to look at him, he said, you look like you could use some help. I said, I think I could. And he said, do you mind if I get in your car? I said, no, of course not. And then, you know, gun in the car, as hard as he could to get it back across all six lanes of traffic into the relative safety of the exit ramp. And then he turned to look at me and he said, you don't look so good. You need me to follow you to make sure you make it home okay? And I just, you know, I wasn't thinking straight. I was like, no, no, I'll be okay. I'll be okay. And he said, okay, you take care of yourself then. And off he went, hopped out of the car, back into his car, off into the night. I don't know his name. I know nothing about him. I don't think I said thank you.

Christina Quinn (4:37)

Abigail has run that night through her mind countless times over the years.

Abigail Marsh (4:42)

I later figured out what he had done. Is that surely within just a fraction of a second of seeing my car stranded in the road, because again, you were coming sort of up over a bridge when you saw my car. So he would have had only just a fraction of a second to react, which in his case meant pulling off into the accident ramp on the opposite side of the freeway, running across the road to get to me. And it's one thing to read about heroism in the news or in a book, but it's another thing to know that you owe your life to this kind of a decision. And so that really stuck with me.

Christina Quinn (5:16)

So much so that she decided to study it. Abigail is now a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Georgetown University, and she has spent her career Trying to understand why people engage in these kinds of selfless acts, especially for people they don't know. In other words, what drives us to be altruistic? And is it possible to get better at it? It's one of the things she and her students research in her lab at Georgetown. But before we go further, let's lay out what altruism actually is.

Abigail Marsh (5:53)

Altruism is generally defined in psychology as a behavior that helps somebody, and that was the intention of the behavior. You help somebody specifically because you wanted to help them, not for some underlying.

Christina Quinn (6:05)

Reason, like when you help someone pick up their groceries after their bag breaks in the parking lot, or when you see a person struggling to open a door. You know, little acts of kindness and everyday gestures that you may not think twice about doing. Those are great. Keep it up. But for Abigail and her work as a researcher, she's interested in the overachievers.

Abigail Marsh (6:25)

An altruistic person or an altruist is somebody who habitually does, I would say, more altruistic things than the average person.

Christina Quinn (6:33)

More specifically, she's focused on people who.

Abigail Marsh (6:36)

Donate their kidneys, which is, in my view, an equally altruistic thing to do. You're certainly making a known sacrifice of one of your own healthy organs forever. To help save a stranger's life. I've worked with hundreds of altruistic kidney donors and bring them to my lab at Georgetown for testing, just to try to figure out what makes them tick. Are they different from other people? And one of the most interesting things about this research at the beginning was that they often thought that I probably wouldn't find anything, because in their view, there's absolutely nothing different about somebody who would donate a kidney to a stranger from anybody else.

Christina Quinn (7:15)

This turned out to be an important clue that would later reveal the kernel of every altruist. Another thing she and her team discovered in the MRI scans of kidney donors was that the size of their amygdala were larger than average. The amygdala, by the way, is critical to processing emotions, particularly fear. In her earlier research, Abigail had learned that the amygdala inside psychopaths were smaller than average. So, she wondered, is altruism the inverse of psychopathy?

Abigail Marsh (7:46)

They were more reactive than in typical people to the sight of other people in distress showing fear. And they were relatively better at recognizing other people's fear as well. Which makes sense, because if you're helping people in distress, it would make sense that you were unusually sensitive to that distress.

Christina Quinn (8:02)

Abigail's lab has since branched out to studying other altruistic heavy hitters, liver donors, bone marrow donors.

Abigail Marsh (8:09)

I've now worked with heroic rescuers, humanitarian aid workers. And what's interesting is that they do all have some common traits. So we haven't done brain scans on all of them, but we have found some really interesting personality differences. The main one of which, and I know this will be a totally shocking statement, is that they're all less selfish than other people. And I think a lot of people assume that they just, they're sort of all puffed up with moral virtue. And it's like the opposite. Genuinely altruistic people are very humble. And it turns out that humility and being unselfish go hand in hand. Because if you think that you're the most special person around, Right. Why would you want to help less special people? You know, person should get all the stuff and the less special people should not. And so truly altruistic people do not think of themselves as special.

Christina Quinn (9:02)

That's it. That's the kernel. Truly altruistic people just don't think that they're special. They see their needs are no more important than anyone else's. Yes. Even when it comes to whether or not they need their kidney.

Abigail Marsh (9:15)

I can't tell you how many altruists I've talked to over the years who a say the decision was sort of automatic. And it almost seems like not donating is the choice that needs an explanation. Donating seems like the most obvious choice in the world. And I think that that's really helpful to remember is that almost everybody believes that their choices are the obvious rational choice. I mean, that's why they made that choice. And so when somebody makes a choice that's different from your own, remember, they may think your choice is just as puzzling as you think their choice is.

Christina Quinn (9:46)

Abigail and her team also learned that in addition to being less selfish, they tend to have more positive views of people. Which makes sense, right? Because if you think everyone stinks, why would you want to help them? I have to say, it almost sounds like you're talking about two different species, like, of humans, like, because I think I am admittedly a little cynical. I try not to be, though, because I do believe in, in the goodness of, of humankind. I really do. But it does sound like when you people, people are like, what? Like, that's like a, it's a no brainer, of course I'm gonna donate my kidney. And, and the fact that you said that, that people consistently responded the same way as if, like, well, yeah, no, it's not about me. Like well, this is ridiculous. Almost like, why are we having this conversation? Right.

Abigail Marsh (10:31)

Yeah. And these are actually some of the exact phrases they use. It's not about me. It felt like a no brainer.

Christina Quinn (10:36)

Were you struck by how almost like repetitious it was across the board? When you were talking to people, you're like, wow, they all sort of have the same response.

Abigail Marsh (10:43)

I had no particular, you know, assumptions going in. And so I was quite surprised at how consistently the altruist I've worked with said that their decision was very kind of intuitive and seemed obvious, you know, like, it just felt like it feels intuitive. And you're right. I mean, it can feel like to many people, it can feel like I, I cannot put my mind inside this other person's brain. I can't imagine what it would be like to make that decision. And so it does end up feeling like they must be supernatural beings somehow not quite human. And so I, you know, one of the reasons I like this work is because all the work we've done shows, you know, they're very human. They're not perfect, they're not saints. You know, I've had people, when I've asked questions along these lines, be like, no, I flipped somebody off in traffic on my way here.

Christina Quinn (11:32)

I was gonna ask that. I was like, do they get mad in traffic? I was like, you know what I mean? Of course they do. I mean, they've got to, right? Yeah. Are there other ways that they've expressed altruism that they've. Did you ever, like, look into that? Like, what else they do? Like, what do you do in your free time when you're not donating a vital organ?

Abigail Marsh (11:52)

Yes. Now that varies a lot too. I would say the most common thread is that they, almost every one of them is also a blood donor. I think it's much more easy to make the mental transition to donating a kidney if you've already donated blood. Maybe plasma, maybe bone marrow, also very common.

Christina Quinn (12:09)

I mean, that's small bananas compared to a kidney. At the end of the day, you're like, well, you know, if I've given a kidney, like, blood's nothing. Right.

Christina Quinn (12:19)

More on what you and I, all of us, can do to be more giving, even if you've already donated a vital organ. After the break.

Michael J. Fox (12:36)

This is Michael J. Fox. With your support, we can end Parkinson's once and for all. Get involved@michaeljfox.org the Michael J. Fox foundation here. Until Parkinson's isn't.

Christina Quinn (12:53)

Abigail Marsh, a psychology and neuroscience professor at Georgetown University, says The easiest way to be more altruistic, more giving, whether it's of your time or money, is just start.

Abigail Marsh (13:05)

Start with something that seems easy for you, that does seem intuitive, whether that's just like picking up trash in your neighborhood or, you know, giving change to a stranger who asks for it or whatever. And for some people, that's donating blood, which is. It is relatively easy, but it's amazing how few people do it regularly.

Christina Quinn (13:24)

Another tip, make it fun.

Abigail Marsh (13:26)

The trick with altruism is that it is a little bit individualized. Some people are left very cold by the idea of sending money to strangers on the other side of the world that they'll never see. They're not people in their community. They don't feel a connection to them. And so it's just important to remember that the same kind of helping and generosity isn't going to do it for everybody. It's just like exercise, right? People always say, what's the best kind of exercise I should do for longevity or health or whatever? And everybody will always tell you, whatever you like. Just do something you'll stick with. I hate swimming, for example. God forbid I'm ever left in a situation where that's the only kind of exercise I can do because I hate it.

Christina Quinn (14:01)

I love swimming.

Abigail Marsh (14:02)

I can't swim, you know, but I don't like it as exercise. I like running. And so, you know, that's the kind of exercise I do because I enjoy it, and so I'll stick with it. It's intrinsically reinforcing. And the same is true for altruism. Like, whatever way that you find help intrinsically makes you feel gratified and reinforced, that's what you should do. If you're a really extroverted person who enjoys spending time with other people, you should seek to help in ways that are extroversion friendly. You know, go volunteer in a soup kitchen. Go help in some really social setting that will be, you know, not just pro social, but, you know, something that you love, right? If you're somebody who really cares about aesthetic beauty, doing community cleanups, you know, making the landscape around you more beautiful in a way that will benefit everybody, that's a good thing. If you love animals, you know, there's tons of animals in the community that need help, obviously.

Christina Quinn (14:54)

All very practical advice, and it makes so much sense. But that's the thing we need to be reminded. I mean, we're very much in favor of doling out practical advice on this show because a lot of it's common sense, but we often Forget, Right. We sort of. There's so many things going on and we just need to be that, like, it needs to be reinforced. Force. It's like, no, like, yeah, there's so many ways to do it.

Abigail Marsh (15:13)

Well, because I think there's a heuristic, you know, sort of a mental rule of thumb where people think the more unpleasant something is, the more virtuous it must be. You know, like, I, I, I, I'm not, I'm not doing the right thing unless I'm suffering somehow.

Christina Quinn (15:26)

The martyr complex, right?

Abigail Marsh (15:28)

Yes, exactly. And that's not always true. You know, like, doing exercise that you find joyful is just as beneficial as exercise you hate. And taking joy and helping people and finding it intrinsically enjoyable does not mean that it's less good. I would argue it's more good because there's more joy in the world and you're more likely to keep doing it. The Buddhist monk and neuroscientist Matthew Ricard wrote a beautiful book called Altruism, where he explains it really well. And I'll just paraphrase it, that finding it joyful to help other people is what it means to be altruistic. Like, that is what altruism is, is finding vicarious reward and helping other people.

Christina Quinn (16:10)

It's so logical when put that way. If you enjoy helping people, then you're doing it right.

Abigail Marsh (16:15)

So I will say that if you're only giving because you feel pressured by other people to do it, or you sort of feel like that's what you're supposed to do, you're not gonna feel as good after helping as if you're helping because you really wanna help. So, you know, find a way to help that is something that is intrinsically motivating to you. And almost everybody can do that. You know, find a charitable organization that really is consistent with your values. Look for organizations in your community who serve populations that really move you, and maybe also make some more altruistic friends and be positively influenced by the people around you.

Christina Quinn (16:57)

Abigail knows that most of us mean well, but if you really want to follow through with your intentions, make a plan.

Abigail Marsh (17:04)

And I will say there's the whole science of what's called implementation intentions. So the idea is that if you want to do something that's consistent with your values, the more precisely you can sort of plot out the where, when, why, how, the more likely you are to actually act in a way that you want to act.

Christina Quinn (17:23)

In other words, and stay with me here, commit to the bit, make the commitment.

Abigail Marsh (17:27)

So, for example, how are you going to get there? What time are you going to leave? Are you going to go with anybody? And answering all of those questions is based on the science of making sure that people's actions match their values. So if, let's say you want to start volunteering, like, don't just have a general plan, like, okay, this Friday I'll volunteer. I'll go to the soup kitchen. No, be like, okay, so when this Friday rolls around, I am going to, at 3:35, that's when my local bus comes and I'm, I'm going to hop on that bus, I'm going to go to the kitchen, I'm going to bring such and such with me, and I'm going to stay for two hours and then I'm going to go get myself a special dinner as a treat or something. And the more precisely you can plan out the details of exactly what you want to do, the more likely you are to do it when the time comes.

Christina Quinn (18:10)

What about for folks who don't have that much time or money?

Abigail Marsh (18:16)

Well, you've always got a kid name.

Christina Quinn (18:18)

Yeah.

Christina Quinn (18:22)

And seen.

Abigail Marsh (18:25)

So there are ways to benefit other people that are very small but have ripple effects on the social fabric. And I have a colleague here at Georgetown whose name is Costa Dean Kushlov who studies our use of phones in social media. And he's done really interesting research showing that walking around with your face and your phone, even if you're like, for example, following directions causes you to miss out on connections with just the passersby that you meet. You make less eye contact with them. You're less likely to smile. If they have a cute dog, you're less likely to interact with it. And so even just like putting your phone away and being fully engaged in the world around you, if somebody's lost, you can help give them directions. You can just smile, maybe compliment a passerby. I mean, these are all little things that are so easy for all of us to do. But we'll, you know, change the opinion of each person that you interact with just a little bit in terms of thinking that other people are maybe a little nicer than you realize. And that's the kind of community change that can lead to big changes in the long term. Right. Increasing trust, reducing cynicism, increasing how much people just like other people. So even just like little positive interactions with strangers or people you don't know very well day to day can make a big difference.

Christina Quinn (19:41)

Okay, recap. Time. Extreme altruists see helping like donating a kidney as intuitive, not extraordinary. But Abigail Marsh believes anyone can become more altruistic. Like strengthening a muscle, start small and make it enjoyable. Altruism grows with small, intuitive acts of helping. Choose forms of giving that feel naturally rewarding and fit your personality. Helping is most effective and sustainable when it's internally motivated and aligned with your values. Get into the habit of giving by making concrete plans about when, where and how you will help and even brief positive interactions like putting your phone away, making eye contact, saying hi and smiling or offering small assistance. All of that strengthens social trust trust and can create meaningful long term community impact. Spread those good vibes my friend.

Christina Quinn (20:43)

That's it for this episode on Altruism. In our next episode, we're going to get down and dirty. Practical tips on giving Try this is produced and hosted by me, Christina Quinn and Taylor White. Additional producing by Sharla Freeland. The show's editors are Thomas Lu and Kanyakrit von Kitkajorn. Sharla Freeland is also our video editor. Sound design and mixing is by Ted Muldoon and Shawn Carter. Theme music is by Katherine Anderson. Show art is by Kati Huertas with design editing from Christian Font and Greg Manifold. The things I learn on the show really do change how I move through the world and I'd love to hear from you. Tell me what you took away from our course and how you make altruism a part of your everyday life. Record a voice memo or drop me a note@trythisoshpost.com the email address again is trythisoshpost.com thanks for listening.

Michael J. Fox (21:48)

This is Michael J. Fox. With your support, we can end Parkinson's once and for all. Get involved@michaeljfox.org the Michael J. Fox foundation here Until Parkinson's issue.