How to live a good life

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to live a good life"

Podcast: Post Reports (The Washington Post)
Air Date: January 17, 2026
Host: Maggie Penman
Main Guests: Richard Seema (Brain Matters columnist, neuroscientist), Shige Oishi (psychologist, University of Chicago), Erin Westgate (psychologist, University of Florida)

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Overview: What Does It Mean to Live a Good Life?

This episode tackles the age-old question: What does it mean to live a good life? Host Maggie Penman explores scientific research and philosophical musings on this universal pursuit. With interviews from experts—including neuroscientist Richard Seema and psychologists Shige Oishi and Erin Westgate—the episode breaks down the three primary paths to a “good life” according to psychological research, how to identify your own orientation, and ways to adjust your life’s direction if you desire change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Three Paths to a Good Life

[02:12] Richard Seema outlines the main paths psychologists have identified:

• Happy Life:

  • Focus: Comfort, satisfaction, more positive than negative emotions
  • Quote: “It's something that's comfortable, something that gives you a sense of satisfaction. It's a lot more positive emotions than negative emotions. You know, more joy than sadness overall.” (02:14)

• Meaningful Life:

  • Focus: Purpose, making a difference, direction, significance
  • “You're thinking about making the world a better place. You have a sense that your life matters. It's also purposeful, like you have a directional life.” (02:29)

• Psychologically Rich Life:

  • Focus: Novelty, perspective-changing experiences, adventure
  • “Having these interesting perspective-changing experiences...what about the adventurous life?...These things that are challenging and uncomfortable.” (02:44-02:59)

Penman observes that our “life narrative”—how we interpret and recount our lives—is crucial for satisfaction:

“Not only is it about having a life that's happy or meaningful or purposeful or psychologically rich, but it's also about the stories we tell ourselves about our lives and having that sense that, like, your life makes sense to you.” (03:29)

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2. The Origins of the Three-Paths Model

[05:30] Seema & Oishi discuss the academic background:

• Shige Oishi began with research on happiness, moved to meaning, then, after a conversation with graduate students, noticed something missing.
• Oishi: “If somebody is happy, somebody feel their life is meaningful, is it the full life?” Some said yes, others—like Oishi—felt something more was needed. (06:47)
• Erin Westgate’s boredom studies contributed to the psychological richness concept: people would rather experience pain than boredom—a clue that variety and novelty are vital ingredients in a good life. (08:17-09:06)

Notable Quote:

“If happiness and meaning are what the good life is about, but you can have a happy, meaningful, boring life, something's missing, right?...the opposite of a boring life is a psychologically rich life.”
— Erin Westgate (09:26-09:59)

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3. Examples and Desirability of Different Lives

• The team studied obituaries and found people’s lives often reflected one of the three types.
• Example: Eugenie Clark, a pioneering female marine biologist, led a psychologically rich life full of change, challenge, and novelty. (10:10-11:05)
• Desire for a type of life is deeply personal: “It's not a good life for everybody…” Different people genuinely want different lives, and all are valid. (11:34)

Quote:

“We can want different kinds of lives and those different wants are valid...they're all forms of the good life, but they're not the same path.”
— Erin Westgate (11:34)

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4. Data on People's Preferences and Regrets

• Most people, if forced to choose one type, pick happiness (approx. 60%), then meaning (25-30%), and a minority (~12-13%) select psychological richness.
• However, when asked about regrets, people often wish they’d pursued more psychological richness—adventure, risks, experiences they didn’t take.
  • “People usually regret not doing the things that would have made their lives richer. Not going to college, not moving abroad, not traveling.” (12:44-13:28)
  • Oishi: “You could have done it, but you didn't do it.” (13:28-13:31)

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5. The Good Life Quiz and Practical Application

[14:51]

• Seema has adapted the “Good Life Scale” into an online quiz for The Post’s readers.
• The quiz reveals:
  • Personal scores on happiness, meaning, richness.
  • Comparison with national averages.
  • Opportunity to state your ideal life path; guidance on how to shift towards it.
• The quiz is intended as a tool for reflection and life-direction adjustment.

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6. How to Shift Paths: Advice Based on Research

If you want more meaning:

• “Keep on working on it. You can’t just volunteer one time.” (16:01)
• Simple, ongoing steps: Support and nurture relationships; consistent, small efforts add up.

For more psychological richness:

• Embrace curiosity, novelty, and occasional discomfort.
• Try small daily changes (like altering your commute route).
• Document experiences to better retain their impact:
  • “Journaling is a way to keep them fresh, because what's the point of an experience if you don't hold onto it and if you don't know what you got out of it?” (17:45)
• “Happiness is sort of like your batting average ... psychological richness might be your career highlights.” (17:56)

General Advice on Change:

• Don’t feel pressure to have your whole path mapped out; focus on small, manageable steps.
• “If this is what you want, taking a step in that direction now is worth it...You don't have to jump all the way to the end in one fell swoop.” (19:08)
• Happiness comes from “the frequency of these small joys you could have, these joy snacks you could keep doing in your day to day.” (19:47)
• On psychological richness: “It does almost take the pressure off...going back to school is a great idea...it's going to be a psychologically rich experience.” (20:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I have a friend...who left a happy married life...to basically move to Florida and become a cave diver...She's like, 'I've always felt like there was just something wrong with me.' There's a real validation in being able to name it and say, 'No, there's not something wrong with me. I just wanted a different kind of a good life.'”
  — Erin Westgate (12:18)

• “You'll have the challenge, you'll have the difficulty. But you also, like, have an expanded worldview...It might be difficult backpacking around Thailand, but you'll have new experiences and come out a different person at the end.”
  — Richard Seema (21:15-21:46)

• “Happiness is like your batting average...psychological richness might be your career highlights. These moments that are perspective-changing.”
  — Richard Seema (17:56)

• “I feel that I had a rich life, psychologically rich life. So I want a happy life...I want to go back to Japan and go to Hot Spring and relax.”
  — Shige Oishi (22:24-22:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:12] – The three main paths to a good life
• [05:41] – Shige Oishi’s background and meaning research
• [07:19] – The turn toward psychological richness
• [08:27] – Boredom studies and their implications
• [10:10] – Obituaries and examples of different good lives
• [12:44] – Regrets about not leading a richer life
• [14:51] – The Good Life quiz: how it works
• [16:01] – Practical advice on finding more meaning
• [16:50] – Guidance on pursuing psychological richness
• [19:08] – Advice for people overwhelmed by life choices
• [21:15] – The value of experiences over achievements
• [22:24] – Shige Oishi on having lived a rich life, and now wishing for more happiness

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Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, optimistic, and reflective—encouraging self-acceptance and gentle self-examination, with a light, sometimes playful tone. The experts and host validate the diversity of human aspirations, emphasizing there is no one-size-fits-all definition of the “good life.”

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Takeaways

• There are three distinct, research-backed “good life” paths: happiness, meaning, and psychological richness. Most people want happiness, but regrets often center around missed opportunities for psychological richness.
• The “Good Life quiz” is a practical reflective tool for identifying your life’s current orientation and considering changes.
• It’s never too late to pursue the path that feels right—small steps count, and different kinds of lives are equally valid.
• Embracing curiosity, adventure, and meaningful relationships are central to designing your version of a good life.

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For more: Check out The Washington Post’s “Optimist” section and take the Good Life quiz online.

Transcript

[Maggie Penman]

I think it's fair to say that we all want to live a good life. But what does that actually mean? This is a question that has preoccupied people for centuries. So much of philosophy and religion has been trying to figure this out. And more recently, science has also chimed in.

[Richard Seema]

So it's basically this big question that we all contemplate from time to time. Is the life I'm living right now one that I want to live, one that's worthwhile for me to live?

[Maggie Penman]

This is my colleague Richard Seema. He is a neuroscientist and he writes the Brain Matters column for the Post.

[Richard Seema]

And it's also a question that psychologists have sort of taken from a bottom up approach, asking regular people not, you know, these bearded philosophers about, yeah, what do you find as a good life? And basically there's three main dimens or paths I think of to a good life that people bring up.

[Maggie Penman]

This is what I love about science, is it's like, what does it mean to live a good life? Well, there are three ways. Like there is an answer. It's quite concrete. I'm Maggie PENMAN. It's Saturday, January 17th. I'm a reporter for the Optimist, a section here at the Post devoted to bringing you good news. Hopeful, inspiring stories about things that are going right in the world. There are actually things that are going right, believe it or not. And today, at a time of year when a lot of us are taking stock and reflecting, thinking about our goals, I wanted to explore the research into what makes a good life. I talked to my colleague Richard Seema, as well as a couple of researchers who study this. And we're going to break down the three paths psychologists have identified to a good life and what we can all do to move closer to whichever one sounds like the kind of life we want first. Here's a bit more of my chat with Richard. So what are the three paths that we could take towards a good life?

[Richard Seema]

Yeah, I mean, one that many people, especially in America, think of is a happy life. You know, it's something that's comfortable, something that like gives you a sense of satisfaction. It's a lot more positive emotions than negative emotions. You know, more joy than sadness overall. And the second is a meaningful life. So you're thinking about making the world a better place. You have a sense that your life matters. You know, you're doing significant things for the people around you, for yourself. It's also purposeful, like you have a directional life that you're working toward. And the third path is called psychological Richness. And it's basically, you know, having these interesting perspective, changing experiences, you know, and it sort of goes against some of the types of lives that might be happy or meaningful, because happy and meaningful lives are more stable. Like, you might have more routine. You're seeing friends a lot, you're volunteering a lot. But what about the adventurous life? What about people who might move away from their established social networks or take on a new job in a new field? These things that are challenging and uncomfortable. So these three dimensions sort of do present different paths. They might overlap sometimes, but also, like, are kind of distinct.

[Maggie Penman]

Yeah. It's so interesting how much of this seems to be almost about, like, the narratives that we have for our lives. Like, not only is it about having a life that's happy or meaningful or purposeful or psychologically rich, but it's also about the stories we tell ourselves about our lives and having that sense that, like, your life makes sense to you.

[Richard Seema]

Yeah, your life makes sense to you. And, like, how would you try to sum it up? Up to this point? And actually, when I was speaking with these researchers, one way they were thinking about it is like, oh, yeah, at the end of your life, you know, how would you try to sum it up? And a happy life might end with something like, oh, it was really fun. A meaningful one is like, wow, like, I made a difference. Well, psychologically rich life might be what an adventure. And, you know, yeah, that's the person.

[Maggie Penman]

Who on their deathbed is like, I had a good run. I hiked the Appalachian Trail. I saw every country or every state or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Seema]

I backpack around, like, Southeast Asia and, like, you know, live nomadically or something. Yeah, yeah. You can sort of picture these different styles or flavors of life.

[Maggie Penman]

So you've adopted the Good Life Scale, which is actually this tool psychologists use in their studies into a quiz that our readers can actually take to find out which path they're on. Why do you think this is helpful to people to know, like, what path they're on and how they might switch gears if they want to.

[Richard Seema]

You know, it's a time for reflection. This is a tool for helping you reflect on where you are in your life and what you value. It's very easy to get caught up in the everyday to do lists, the errands, the responsibilities, and not really have that moment to think, like, hey, is everything I'm doing going toward something that I want to look back on fondly and a life that I want to live? So it's like, it's A good way to check in on each of these different paths and where you are and where you want to be.

[Maggie Penman]

Yeah. Okay, so tell me about these researchers who actually did this study.

[Richard Seema]

Yeah. So I spoke with Shige Oishi. He's a psychologist at the University of Chicago, and he's studied happiness and meaning for, like, many decades.

[Shige Oishi]

I've been studying sort of the formally in graduate school since 1995, so the last 30 years. And initially it was happiness. So what makes people happy? But then when I got a job in 2000 at University of Minnesota, my graduate student Mike Stiga wanted to study meaning in life. And I said, don't do it because it's just too complicated. There's no can do this in five, six years. But he was very persistent, so he did it. And essentially he. For his dissertation, he created the questionnaire, Meaning in Life Questionnaire, and which is cited 7,000 times. I mean, you know, he's. So since 2000, I started studying meaning in life as well.

[Maggie Penman]

I spoke with Shige too, and he told me that about 10 years ago, he was thinking about all of this research he and his colleagues had done into happy lives and meaningful lives. And he wondered, were they missing something?

[Shige Oishi]

When September came in my first lab meeting graduate students and postdoc, I just asked, if somebody is happy, somebody feel their life is meaningful, is it the full life? And the half of them say, don't.

[Maggie Penman]

Be greedy.

[Shige Oishi]

That'S great. If somebody's happy and meaningful, then that's great. But the other half are actually like me, just, yeah, maybe something is missing. So that's when I started, you know, thinking about alternatives.

[Maggie Penman]

He and his colleagues started thinking of examples, and they could come up with so many figures from history and literature who maybe didn't have the happiest lives, who maybe didn't make the world a better place. Exactly. But they had an adventure. Shige Oishi did this research with Erin Westgate at the University of Florida, and Richard and I both interviewed her too. Aaron was doing research on boredom at the time. And I'll explain the connection between boredom and the good life in just a minute. But Aaron had just done this study where people were left alone in a room with the option to think quietly or shock themselves. And a surprising number of people, about two thirds of men and a quarter of women, chose to shock themselves, including one guy who shocked himself 190 times. So Erin did this research with her grad school advisor, Tim Wilson at the University of Virginia.

[Erin Westgate]

And, like, it was so cute, because Tim was devastated by this finding. And I thought it was hilarious. Like, I was like, this is great. And he said, no, it's so bad.

[Maggie Penman]

Like, it's so bad, it's so bad. But also it feels so human. You're like, oh, yeah, it is.

[Erin Westgate]

It's so relatable. But one of the things that just struck me so much, both in the sort of scholarly, academic discourse about this study, but also in participants own responses is one of the counterarguments was like, well, they're just shocking themselves because they're bored. And I'm like, wait a minute, that's not an explanation at all. Like, like, oh, you're bored, so you shock yourself.

[Maggie Penman]

Like, why is it worse to be bored than in pain? Exactly.

[Erin Westgate]

Like, and the fact that everyone just would sort of nod when this was proposed. Like, oh, well, yes, that's understandable that I'm like, wait, no it's not.

[Maggie Penman]

This is wild.

[Erin Westgate]

And so I ended up sort of pivoting and doing a lot of work. And a lot of what I'm I do now is on boredom.

[Maggie Penman]

Around the same time, Aaron started working a lot with Shige.

[Erin Westgate]

Shige was like, do you think you can have a happy, boring life? And I'm like, yeah, probably. And he's like, what about a meaningful, boring life? And I was like, yeah. And. And she goes like, then there's a problem. Because, like, you know, if happiness and meaning are what the good life is about, but you can have a happy, meaningful, boring life. Something's missing, right? Something's missing from our conception of what it means to lead a good life. So, you know, well, what is the opposite of a boring life? He was like, well, the opposite of a boring life is a psychologically rich life.

[Maggie Penman]

In looking for examples of good lives, whether that meant a meaningful life or a happy life or a psychologically rich life, the researchers looked at obituaries.

[Erin Westgate]

And what we found was that there was. There were really three distinct groups, that there were people that had happy lives or people that had meaningful lives. But there were also people like. Actually, one of my childhood heroes, Eugenie Clark, was a marine biologist who studied sharks. And she was one of the first women in marine biology at the time. She traveled all over the world. She was like, married a bunch of times, divorced a bunch of times, had a lot of, you know, experiences with discrimination and sexism in the field, but also had all of these incredible, intellectually challenging, novel, exciting experiences. Diving underwater, traveling everywhere, learning new things, swimming with sharks. You know, she led this whole life that was unimaginable to women, other women in her generation or before it. Right.

[Maggie Penman]

Mm. So maybe this is a silly question, but, like, how do we know that that is a desirable life?

[Erin Westgate]

It's not a silly question.

[Maggie Penman]

It's not.

[Erin Westgate]

It's not a silly question because I.

[Maggie Penman]

Think when you describe it, I'm like, yeah, that does sound really important. And, like, I'm really glad that some people have done that. But, like, I'm not sure that I want to be married five times. Or like, you know, yes, it's a completely valid question.

[Erin Westgate]

And my very quick answer. And then I'll give you the longer answer. My very quick answer is that it's not a good life for everybody. And I think one of the biggest, to me, contributions that me and Shige's work has had isn't necessarily like, oh, you should all go have rich lives, but that we can want different kinds of lives and that those different wants are valid, that you might want a meaningful life and I might want a rich life and my friend Robert might want a happy life. And they're all sort of forms of the good life, but they're not necessarily all the same path to getting there. I have a friend, left a happy married life with kids in the Midwest, successful career, to basically move to Florida and become a cave diver.

[Maggie Penman]

Wow. Yeah.

[Erin Westgate]

And I was telling her about the work on richness, and she kind of stopped and was like, oh, my God, like, say that again. Because, like, she's like, I've always felt like there was just something wrong with me. There's a real validation in being able to name it and say, no, there's not something wrong with me. I just wanted a different kind of a good life than what I had.

[Maggie Penman]

When the researchers asked people if they could choose just one type of good life, happy, meaningful, or psychologically rich. Most people choose happiness. About 60% of us, and then another 25 to 30% choose happiness, a meaningful life. But there is a small group, about 12 or 13%, who choose psychological richness. What's really interesting, though, that Shige Yoishi told me, is if you ask people to look back on their lives and think about what they regret, people usually regret not doing the things that would have made their lives richer. Not going to college, not moving abroad, not traveling.

[Shige Oishi]

Essentially, that's what's bad for psychological richness.

[Richard Seema]

Right?

[Shige Oishi]

You could have done it, but you didn't do it.

[Maggie Penman]

After the break, we'll return to my conversation with Richard about the Good Life quiz. He adapted for the post and we'll talk about what to do if you take it and find that you're not on the path you want to be. We'll be right back.

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[Maggie Penman]

So if someone actually goes and takes this quiz, what will they find?

[Richard Seema]

Well, they will find not only their average score for a happy life, meaningful life, and psychologically rich life, but we actually have a data set from these researchers that they provided. So you could sort of compare where you are against other Americans, a representative swath of research participants, to sort of get a sense of, like, yeah, am I in the middle? Am I a little above average? And then we're also going to ask, what is your ideal life? If you can only pick one, even though these are not mutually exclusive, but it sort of gives you a sense of what you most value. If you could be happy but not live a meaningful or psychological life, will you pick that versus the other paths? And then hopefully we give you some good advice about, yeah, this is what you value. How do you get there?

[Erin Westgate]

Yeah.

[Maggie Penman]

So that's my next question. Let's say I take this quiz and I learned that I'm on the path to a happy life, which sounds great, but let's say I want more meaning. How would I make adjustments in my life to kind of shift gears towards a more meaningful life?

[Richard Seema]

Yeah. So it was funny, when I spoke with Shige, he was like, yeah, unfortunately for this, there's no, like, one, like, easy thing because it's to change the world. You sort of have to keep on working on it. You can't just volunteer one time. You can't just, like, darn it. Yeah. But, like, an easy, tangible way is like, you know, all the relationships you have, the people that you love and care for, like, continue to support them. And similarly, it's not like you just show up once and it's over with, but you keep on, you know, strengthening those ties and keep on supporting them. And that's. That's one, like, smaller way that still changes the world and ripples outward and.

[Maggie Penman]

What about a psychologically rich life? Can you talk a little bit about what that would sound like and feel like and how if I was interested in moving more in that direction, I might go about doing that?

[Richard Seema]

Yeah. So that's a life of more curiosity, spontaneity, and maybe playfulness. So it sort of like, goes against, like, oh, yeah, you have this routine that you always stick to, which might be really good for optimizing your efficiency in life, your happiness and pursuing these meaningful activities. But it's like you're trying new things that, you know you might not be good at, which is uncomfortable. You're going to new places, which in and of itself could be uncomfortable if you don't know how to navigate this new city, like, take in this new culture, but on the day to day, like, you could sort of plan in these moments of spontaneity. And one advice I've been trying to do that I got from Shige was on your commute, something that you're doing regularly, but maybe try going a different route and just see, like, oh, yeah, there's a new neighborhood that has its own little world that you weren't aware of, even if you've driven by them every day. But it gives you some insight into a larger world and sort of enriches what you're aware of. One other piece of advice that I want to try to do more is journaling about these experiences. The way Shige put it was, happiness is sort of like your batting average of good experiences, whereas psychological richness might be your career highlights. It's like, oh, wow, this really cool moment I saw the total eclipse. These moments that are perspective changing but sort of fade with time or fade with your memory. And journaling is a way to keep them fresh, because what's the point of an experience if you don't hold onto it and if you don't know what you got out of it? I guess in the long run, that.

[Maggie Penman]

Makes a lot of sense.

[Richard Seema]

Yeah.

[Maggie Penman]

So this conversation reminds me a little bit of a question that one of my friends used to ask us. He would ask, if you Picture yourself in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 30 years, what do you want? And I think it's really hard and sometimes overwhelming to think about, like, oh, God, like, am I on the path towards a meaningful life? Or, like, am I doing enough challenging things to give me that psychological richness? And so I wonder for someone who might be having a little bit of an existential cris, if you have any advice for how to kind of, like, think about this in a way that feels approachable.

[Richard Seema]

Yeah, it's difficult thinking that far in the future and be like, oh, man, like, am I on the right path? And if I'm not, therefore, at the end of my life, I'm going to be, like, upset with myself. Or. It reminds me of a conversation I had with an Uber driver who was talking about going back to school, but saying like, oh, yeah, I'm already 40. Like, I'm, you know, it's probably too old. Like, I'll be done at 45. And like, is it worth it? And it's like, but you're going to be 45 anyway. Like, you. If this is what you want, like, taking a step in that direction now is worth it because it's still your life, you're still living it, but maybe a more, maybe reframing it as, like, you know, it's the journey of a thousand miles. Right? Like, you're taking one step, take it one day at a time. Like, just see that you're going down this path that you want to go. You don't have to jump all the way to the end in one fell swoop. Right. But there are many ways to build toward it that are small and manageable. And also, like, one of the most interesting things about happiness research is it's not about those big intense moments like the birth of your child or a big promotion or winning the lottery. The research actually shows that those big moments, yeah, it feels amazing in the moment, but it actually fades relatively quickly, surprisingly quickly. You go back to baseline. Instead, it's about the frequency of these small joys that you could have, these joy snacks that you could keep doing in your day to day. You could get that coffee with that friend. You could take a walk outside when it's sunny and nice. So maybe that's similar to these. Thinking about, you know, your path to a good life is you're taking these small steps, but that adds up over the course of your life.

[Maggie Penman]

Another thing that I really like about the, like, psychological richness, in a way, it does almost take the pressure off because it's like, if your goal is to have a psychologically rich life, then, like, going back to school is a great idea. And it doesn't really matter if it results in a new career or not. Like, it's going to be a psychologically rich experience.

[Richard Seema]

Yeah, you'll have the challenge, you'll have, you know, the difficulty. But you also, like, have an expanded worldview of something that you wanted to study, you wanted to find out. Yeah. And Travel is also a great one. Like, it might be difficult backpacking around Thailand, but you'll have new experiences and come out a different person at the end.

[Maggie Penman]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like a less goal oriented way of thinking about life. Like, it's not like, oh, you have to achieve X, Y and Z. It's just like you have to have a kind of like, rich set of experiences.

[Richard Seema]

Yeah. And it might change who you are, but that's not necessarily what we're going for. It's like, oh, this is interesting. This world is so big and like, how can I explore these different parts of it.

[Shige Oishi]

Yeah.

[Richard Seema]

And make some of it part of me.

[Maggie Penman]

Yeah.

[Erin Westgate]

Love it.

[Maggie Penman]

All right. Well, thank you so much, Richard. This is so lovely.

[Richard Seema]

Oh, thank you.

[Maggie Penman]

I love talking to you. I always feel better after, so thank you.

[Richard Seema]

Same.

[Maggie Penman]

Richard Seema is the Brain Matters columnist for the Post. Before I let researcher Shige Oishi go, I had to ask him, what kind of life did he have and what did he aspire to?

[Shige Oishi]

I feel that I had a rich life, psychological rich life. So I want a happy life.

[Maggie Penman]

You're like, I'm good on that.

[Shige Oishi]

Yeah. I've done this, like too much.

[Maggie Penman]

That makes sense. Yeah.

[Shige Oishi]

I want to go back to Japan and go to Hot Spring and relax.

[Maggie Penman]

Thanks. I'm Maggie Penman. I'm a reporter for the Optimist. If you want to hear more stories like this one on the weekend, please send me an email. You can reach the whole [e-mail] or just [e-mail] Today's episode was produced by me with help from Rennie Svirnofsky, who also mixed the show. It was edited by Ariel Plotnick and Allison Karl. If you want more optimistic content, check out our newsletter. I'll put a link in the show Notes where you can subscribe. Thank you for listening and have a great rest of your weekend.

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