How to make – and keep – friends

Summary

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Post Reports: "How to make – and keep – friends"

Date: November 15, 2025
Host: Maggie Penman (Reporter for The Optimist at The Washington Post)
Guest: Billy Baker (Journalist and Author of We Need to Hang Out)

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the modern challenge of making and maintaining friendships as adults. Maggie Penman explores her own anxieties around forging new connections, attends an event aimed at helping adults find friends, and draws on the expertise and personal journey of Billy Baker—whose work investigates why forming adult friendships is so hard, why it’s essential, and how to intentionally prioritize and nurture them.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Friendship Deficit in Adult Life

• Maggie Penman opens the episode by sharing her nervousness about attending a "Real Roots" friend-finding event, highlighting how intimidating making friends can be as an adult ([00:04]).
• The loneliness epidemic is elevated to a public health crisis, with a 2023 Surgeon General advisory warning of its dangers even before the COVID pandemic exacerbated the issue ([01:42]).

Billy Baker’s Story: From Assignment to Personal Mission

• Billy Baker recounts how an assignment to write about “how middle aged men have no friends” prompted self-reflection; he realized he too had drifted apart from his close circles ([03:52]).
  • Quote:

    "By the time I sat down, it was like, you know what? I am perfect for this story because I'm so typical."
    —Billy Baker ([04:22]).

• Baker’s story went viral, helping him recognize his experience was part of a widespread problem ([04:58]).
• What began as an article became a book—and transforming his own friendship life became a personal quest ([05:15]).

The Importance and Science of Friendship

• Friends are not just fun—they have genuine mental and physical health benefits.
  • Quote:

    "It's not eating your broccoli and going to the gym every day. Right? It's hanging out with the fellas and then apparently reaping all these wonderful mental and physical health rewards..."
    —Billy Baker ([05:28]).

• Baker discusses how loneliness is stigmatized, but friendship is universally valued and lights people up ([06:02]).
• The negative health impacts of weak social ties are stark—but Baker’s book focuses instead on integrating friendship into adult life and building new connections ([06:02], [07:49]).

The Barriers: Busyness and Nostalgia

• Maggie and Billy reflect on the tendency to assume we’re staying connected when, in reality, months or years may pass without meaningful interaction ([07:09]).
• The "get the band back together" nostalgia trap: For most, “best friends” are rooted in the distant past, and attempts to reconstitute those groups—while meaningful—aren’t sustainable or sufficient ([07:49]).

Making New Friends Where You Are

• The turning point: realizing that to have a fulfilling social life, friendships must be built in your present reality, not just maintained from the past ([09:00]).
  • Anecdote: Baker learned from a local group of older men who informally pledged to hang out every Wednesday night ("Wednesday nights")—it’s not an event, but a commitment ([09:40]).
• Importance of regular, low-pressure social habits—"velvet hooks":
  • Origin of the term: Inspired by how Velcro (from velour + crochet = “velvet hook”) gently but reliably binds things together ([11:45]).
  • Quote:

    "You need a velvet hook. You need some soft connector that's regular, that's on the schedule, that keeps you connected. You need a way to be friends with your friends."
    —Billy Baker ([12:27]).

Vulnerability and Courage in Friendship

• Initiating new connections requires vulnerability, but Baker notes that it's usually well-received ([11:07]).
  • Quote:

    "Vulnerability for me was always rewarded. It is a scientific fact. ... One is that we like people that we know like us."
    —Billy Baker ([11:10]).

• Shared dislikes can be bonding, but the essential element is the willingness to reach out and risk awkwardness ([11:45]).

Practical Friendship-Building Tactics

• Start with activities you genuinely enjoy—hobbies, clubs, exercise. Use these as "velvet hooks" to foster repeated interaction ([19:16]).
  • Quote:

    "You have to go to those places where you do this thing that you already like … and then you're gonna stand around talking about that thing you like."
    —Billy Baker ([19:32]).

• Prioritize scheduling: "Put friendship on your to-do list every day," along with chores and obligations ([07:49], [21:18]).
  • Quote:

    "Just prioritize friendship. You know, it has to go on the schedule each day, along with all the other stuff you need to do, and it can be the most fun part of your day."
    —Billy Baker ([21:18]).

• Smaller groups function best: Social science shows three is optimal for laughter, four for conversation; larger groups naturally fragment ([16:31]).

Audience Q&A: Overcoming Barriers

• Producer Ted Muldoon’s question: “How can I learn to like people more and find those I connect with?”
  • Baker’s answer: Start with your interests and activities—seek the spark from there ([18:42]-[20:11]).
• On fear of rejection: It never gets easy, but short bursts of courage are all you need. Most people react positively when someone reaches out authentically ([20:33]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Maggie, nervously entering the Real Roots event:

  "I haven't been on a first date in like 10 years, but I kind of have that, like, about to go on a first date feeling." ([00:08])

• On male friendship and vulnerability:

  "There are a million jokes about being a man over 40 trying to make friends... there's this meme of Jesus at the Last Supper where it’s like, his greatest accomplishment was still having 12 friends in his 30s."
  —Billy Baker ([09:55])

• On making the friendship 'ask':

  "You don’t get over it, right? You take two seconds of courage... in my experience, it’s always worked."
  —Billy Baker ([20:33])

• On picturing who you want to reach out to:

  "I'd like ask people to close their eyes and picture one person they missed and wish they hung out with more. And, like, everyone had someone, it came right away."
  —Billy Baker ([21:50])

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Real-World Experiment: Making the Friendship Leap

• After the interview, Maggie applies Billy's advice: She invites colleague Rachel Curtias (also featured later as guest and friend) to be friends outside of work ([23:01]-[24:55]).
  • Lighthearted, authentic exchange between Maggie and Rachel illustrates the vulnerability (and joy) of risking the "friendship ask."
  • Rachel’s response:

    "Oh my god. Now I have chills. So I just wanted to say, Rachel, will you be my friend?"
    — Maggie Penman ([24:27])

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Takeaways and Advice

1. Acknowledge the Difficulty: Making friends as an adult can be awkward and intimidating—and that's normal.
2. Schedule It: Treat friendship like any other priority in life. Carve out regular, recurring time for it.
3. Velvet Hooks: Create low-pressure, recurring activities (e.g., Wednesday nights, a gym buddy, golf foursome) as easy ways to nurture connection.
4. Vulnerability Pays Off: Taking the leap to reach out—no matter how awkward—almost always results in a positive outcome.
5. Start Where You Are: Use your present interests and surroundings; don’t just rely on reconnecting with past friends.
6. Small Groups Matter: Meaningful connection thrives best in small groups of three or four.

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------|-----------| | Maggie enters Real Roots, friendship anxiety| 00:04 | | Intro to the loneliness epidemic | 01:42 | | Billy Baker’s assignment epiphany | 03:52 | | The science & value of friendship | 05:28 | | Friendship nostalgia and the present | 07:49 | | Wednesday night “velvet hook” story | 09:40 | | What makes friendship “stick” | 11:45 | | Billy’s practical tips for making friends | 16:31 | | Audience Q&A: Interest-activity connection | 19:16 | | How to make the ask; rejection fear | 20:33 | | Maggie’s own friendship leap with Rachel | 23:01 | | Reflection on the outcome, and closure | 25:18 |

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains a conversational, candid, and uplifting tone—balancing frank insights about loneliness with optimism, humor, and practical encouragement.

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Final Thoughts

The episode blends personal storytelling, expert insight, and social science to demystify adult friendship and encourage listeners to actively nurture connection. It closes with a call to action: pick up the phone, reach out to that person you miss, and put friendship near the top of your to-do list—for your happiness, health, and sense of community.

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Recommended action after listening:
Call your friend or make a new one—“magic will happen” (Billy Baker).

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Transcript

[Maggie Penman]

Okay. I am walking up to this event for Real Roots to meet a group of women who are looking to make friends. And I'm feeling a little nervous. On a recent Thursday night In downtown Washington, D.C. i went to a bar to make new friends. I haven't been on a first date in like 10 years, but I kind of have that, like, about to go on a first date feeling. I actually don't think 10 years is even really long enough because I don't think I've tried to show up at a new place just to make friends probably since the beginning of college. So, yeah, I was pretty nervous. So I'm gonna go inside. We'll see how it go. Real Roots is an app that matches you with a group of new potential friends. In other words, basically strangers. And it's trying to solve this problem that a lot of people have. It's not just me. It's really hard to make new friends as an adult. There were a couple dozen women at this bar for the same reason I was. Yeah, so I'm someone who likes to try and push myself and try new things. And I also really enjoy meeting new people. I grew up with social anxiety, and now that I'm an adult, it's actually, actually really hard to make new friends because I just work and sleep. I work from home. So pretty isolated. I have been for a little while.

[Billy Baker]

I've been here about a year.

[Maggie Penman]

Making friends as a grownup is hard. As you may have heard, we are not doing a very good job as a society of prioritizing friendship. There was even a Surgeon General advisory a couple of years ago declaring a loneliness epidemic and talking about all of the dangerous side effects of being isolated. A lot of experts say this was a problem even before COVID era lockdowns made everything worse.

[Billy Baker]

Covid only exacerbated it, but also, I think, made people appreciate just how important friendship was in their lives.

[Maggie Penman]

This is Billy Baker. He's a journalist and author of the book we need to Hang A Memoir of Making Friends.

[Billy Baker]

So I think, naively, optimistically, we are now in a golden age of friendship appreciation. People are acutely aware of how important it is. And for me, like, getting involved in this and then working on and solving my own friendship problems was the greatest gift I've ever given myself.

[Maggie Penman]

Perhaps naively, optimistically, I agree with Billy. So many of us have seen and experienced firsthand the negative consequences of isolation. And hopefully we understand now how good friendship is for us, how essential social connection is for our health and our well being as well. As our happiness. But that doesn't make it any easier to make friends as an adult. I'm Maggie PENMAN. It's Saturday, November 15th, and this is Post Reports Weekend. I'm a reporter for the Optimist, the section here at the Post where we bring you good news stories that bring you inspiration and a little bit of hope. And today, we are going to figure it out how to make friends as an adult. For Billy Baker, this all started with an assignment from his editor at the Boston Globe. He wrote Billy an email that said.

[Billy Baker]

We have a story we think you'd be perfect for. And so I marched down to his office and said, lay it on me. And he looked at me and said, I want you to write an article about how middle aged men have no friends. And I think initially I was offended.

[Maggie Penman]

Billy had just turned 40 at the time. So first of all, he was like, who are you calling middle aged? But secondly, Billy was like, wait, I have friends. I have a lot of friends, actually. Right.

[Billy Baker]

It really only took a short walk back to my desk in the newsroom to go through an inventory of people I think as my great friends. And it was like, I haven't seen that guy in a year. I haven't talked to him in forever. And by the time I sat down, it was like, you know what? I am perfect for this story because I'm so typical.

[Maggie Penman]

So Billy wrote the story. He wrote about all the data and studies that say loneliness is terrible for us. All the things that get in the way of friendships and why we have to prioritize them. Anyway, the story went viral.

[Billy Baker]

It went around the world. Like, before I knew it, I was the guy on NPR talking about male loneliness, which was not what I wanted to be when I grew up. But, you know, it was the right time. It was the beginning of what has become now a very public issue.

[Maggie Penman]

This article ended up becoming his book. And as Billy said, taking this project on was the best thing he's ever done for himself. Because the thing about friendship is it's really good for you, but it's also just fun.

[Billy Baker]

It's the lowest of low hanging fruit. It's not eating your broccoli and going to the gym every day. Right? It's hanging out with the fellas and then apparently reaping all these wonderful mental and physical health rewards which I struggle to put my finger on. I played in an indoor golf league last night with three guys. I mean, we told jokes, we made fun of each other. Apparently, I'm a healthier human. This morning, yeah.

[Maggie Penman]

Well, tell me about some of that research. What did you learn as you were first writing this article and then later your book about why is friendship so important?

[Billy Baker]

Well, so the, the jumping off point for the article was about how negative the health consequences were if you don't have a robust friendship circle in your life. And for me, like, loneliness kind of clears the room, right? Like, no one really wants to talk about loneliness. I didn't really want to talk about loneliness. But friendship, I mean, you say that word and everybody lights up, right? Like you're going into your memory banks or remembering all these wonderful times you've had with your friends. So the article dealt with the negative in me, kind of raising my hand and saying, I need to do something about this. When I was asked to write a book, I was like, I don't want to write a book about loneliness. I want to write a book about how we incorporate friendship into our lives. At the time I was, I just turned 40, which seems to be the age when it hits a lot of people where you kind of look around and you're like, wait a minute, you know, I've been doing everything right in my life, but I, I don't anyone that I'm actively hanging out with.

[Maggie Penman]

So I want to pause on that point actually, because I think a lot of us, myself included, I'm 35, I have a toddler and a full time job and a dog who needs to be walked. And I think a lot of us in these kind of like busy middle of the life times are like, of course I have friends. But then when you really stop to think about it, you're like, wait, one of my best friends from high school still hasn't met my daughter because we haven't seen each other in that long. So like, I think part of the process you were going through is a process that many of us go through when we really stop to think about, like, wait, when did we last, like hang out with people just for fun?

[Billy Baker]

Yeah. I think your story is every story, right. We were never taught to prioritize friendship. And I think what I did, the gift I gave myself is to put friendship on the to do list every day alongside eating well, taking care of the family, taking out the trash, all those things. Like, it needs to be a part of our day, daily life if you really are going to reap the benefits. And having a toddler is no joke, right? Like, that's a full time job. It is no joke. But you need to make time for your friends and like, you know, so When I wrote the book, I really went on this journey to try and figure out how to have a functional friend life. And I made a mistake initially, which is I thought that meant getting the band back together. You know, most people, especially men, if you ask them who your best friend is or your best friends, they're going to go back in the past. They're going to reference people from high school or a sports team or college or whatever it might be. So I ran around like a maniac trying to get all these bands back together. And it was fun, and I reconnected, and our relationships were stronger than they'd been since that point when we became best friends. But the past is a nice place to visit, but you can't really live there. So I had to address a situation that I think many people find themselves in. I don't live where I grew up anymore. You know, I had done the proverbial thing where we had our second kid and we moved to the suburbs, and I thought I was gonna be brought out with the dads on the sideline. And, you know, there were a few I feel like I connected with. But at the end of the day, I became my sort of jumping off point. For what I wanted was when I was writing the original article, I had referenced these older guys that live in my town who have this thing they call Wednesday night. And it's not even an event. It's a promise that every Wednesday night, we'll get together and we'll do something, anything. And Wednesday nights would come around for me, and it was like, I have nobody, nobody to hang out with tonight, right? And you feel little guilt in that because I have, like, wonderful children, a wonderful wife, and all these things are going right. But that was missing. So I shifted my focus. The book really has kind of two cycles. The first half, I'm trying to get the bands back together. The second half is realization that, like, I need to have friends where I am right now in my life. And, I mean, there are a million jokes about being a man over 40 trying to make friends. Like, there's this meme of Jesus at the Last Supper where it's like, his greatest accomplishment was still having 12 friends in his 30s, right? Like, and so I had to start a new band. And it was silly. It was a little vulnerable. What I had to do is basically say to those men I knew from various quarters of my life in not. Not these exact words, but the sentiment was correct. Like, I feel a spark when I. When I'm around you, you know, like, I light up a little when we're together, we need to hang out.

[Maggie Penman]

Right. And what was the reaction that you got when you would say that to people?

[Billy Baker]

I will say that vulnerability for me was always rewarded. It is a scientific fact. Going into the science of how friendship works is so fun and it's so evil in some ways. You learn all these things that are really human bonders. One is that we like people that we know like us. We are just simply like, yeah, it's that simple. The other is that one of the greatest bonding mechanisms ever created is mutual dislike of a third party. So.

[Maggie Penman]

So complaining about like the soccer coach who coaches your kids team or.

[Billy Baker]

Yeah, yeah, those are connectors right there. They feel a little naughty, but they're there. So I tried a million things and I tried to, because I was writing a book, figure out what is it? What is this thing that you need to make friendship work. And I had a stupid post it note on my wall for a couple years that said that thing. And I was trying to figure out what that was. And the closest thing I could think of to it was Velcro. But Velcro feels a little harsh, right? There's something. It makes this violent noise when you take it apart. And then I started reading about Velcro. And Velcro is invented by the scientist who was walking through a field with his dog and wondering why his socks and his dog were covered in these burrs. And he looked at them under a microscope and he saw that they had little hooks. And so he created a synthetic version of that he called Velcro. And he named it using a portmanteau of the French words velour and crochet, which if you translate that literally means velvet hook. And that's. That hit me. I was like, that's the right term for that thing. You need. You need a velvet hook. You need some soft connector that's regular, that's on the schedule, that keeps you connected. You need a way to be friends with your friends.

[Maggie Penman]

After the break with Billy's coaching, I try to make a new friend. We'll be right back.

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[Maggie Penman]

Eventually, Billy found some velvet hooks that worked for him. Sometimes it was as simple as going up to the guy that he always saw at the gym and being like, hey, do you want to like come to the gym together on purpose? Or in Billy's words, I would text him.

[Billy Baker]

He'd be like, yo bro, like you want to throw some weights around? You know, whatever. Accordiness would get him in the door.

[Maggie Penman]

Then he went on to start his own version of Wednesday nights to start to create a regular, predictable community where he lived, putting friendship on the to do list every week.

[Billy Baker]

You know, it's so silly, but at the end of the day I went from a guy that didn't have anything to do on a Wednesday night to now I've got a roster of different people. Ultimately, I tried to start a Wednesday night group of my own. That was the conclusion of the book, and it was okay. It felt a little forced, you know, sitting around. First we met in a barn. Then we were hanging out around campfires. It became different things, but that Wednesday night group still works, but in smaller groups. They're now sometimes hanging out without me. I'm like, whoa, hey, I introduced you guys. What, the three? The three of you are now doing this. I mean, it's working well. And I think that, you know, another cool thing about the science is thinking about the group size. So three people is what they call the laughter group. If you want to have a laugh, three is the right number. If you want to have a conversation, four is about the limit. And if you ever look around at a dinner party, people standing around chatting. When a group gets larger than four, it. It naturally breaks into smaller groups. It's. There are these wonderful things that these creepy social scientists have determined just watching us in the world, but they hold true. So, you know, smaller groups work better than bigger groups. Four is about your. Your max level for a conversation. You and I spoke a few weeks ago, and I confessed begrudgingly that I've become a golfer. And when I was first writing this book, every guy I knew who was a golfer was like, dude, just play golf. And I was like, no, it's. It's more complicated than that. It's more nuanced.

[Maggie Penman]

You're like, no, I need to do research into science. And they're like.

[Billy Baker]

In it. And you know what they were, right? Because if you look at what golf is, it's four guys, right? And most of the time, it's three guys laughing at what the other guy just did. You know, there's. Each hole has kind of this cycle of drama and mistakes. Everybody stinks at golf. Even good golfers stink at golf. It goes horribly most of the time.

[Maggie Penman]

At this point in my conversation with Billy, senior producer Ted Muldoon interrupted my conversation from the control room and told me to wrap it up. So naturally, I started picking on him. So actually. Well, I'm glad Ted just walked into the studio, because he was asking me before this interview. He was like, so can you ask him, like, how I can learn to, like, like people more and, like, find more people who I connect with? Because he's like, my problem is just, like, finding people who I vibe with. So what would you say to someone who has that problem?

[Billy Baker]

Perfect question, Ted. I would say you have things you were interested in, right? That's your velvet hook. Start with the velvet hook and then see who you spark with around it. Right there. A lot of people are in this situation where they move to a new city or whatever it is, they get divorced. They are literally friendless. You have to go to those places where you do this thing that you already like, you know, and then you're gonna stand around talking about that thing you like. I mean, pickleball has changed senior friendship, right? Like, they all go play pickleball for four hours a day. Is it pickleball they love, or is it having this activity that they enjoy and finding others who also enjoy it, and then they're off for coffee, you know, So I think, you know, if you have no friends, you start with an activity and connect that way. If you have someone you'd like to be friends with, you need define the activity that will be your velvet hook.

[Maggie Penman]

Okay, good advice. And then I think another thing a lot of people struggle with is being vulnerable and admitting, like, I want to make more friends, or, hey, I really notice a spark with you. Like, maybe we could be friends. Like, how do you go about getting over your own fear of rejection and making that ask?

[Billy Baker]

I mean, you don't get over it, right? You take two seconds of courage, and, I mean, in my experience, it's always worked. But you are fully justified in thinking this is not going to work. This is the most awkward thing I've ever done in my entire life. But, you know, I mean, work is a classic thing, right? Like, you have work friends, and people tend to shelve those in a. A place where it's like, not more than that yet you might spend more time with them than you do with your own children, with your. Your spouse, whatever it might be. So. So it's okay. There are accidents of proximity, but that's also how most friendships start, right?

[Maggie Penman]

Is there just, like, a piece of advice you want to leave people with if they really want to prioritize friendship?

[Billy Baker]

I mean, I think that's the advice. Just prioritize friendship. You know, it has to go on the schedule each day, along with all the other stuff you need to do, and it can be the most fun part of your day. And I will say that, you know, I often get asked to be on podcasts like this. Like, I'm some friendship expert. I'm not. Everybody is, right? You know how it works. You know what works? You know, the people you want to be friends with. You know, the people you feel a spark towards just make that. That little move, and you will be rewarded. It will be a gift you've given yourself, and it's the easiest one. And, you know, if. If I used to do the same where I. I'd like ask people to close their eyes and picture one person they missed and wish they hung out with more. And, like, everyone had someone, it came right away. So I would say that to the listeners. Like, if you close your eyes and think, who is it? I'd like to see more or hang out with more, and then you pick up the phone and you call them and say that, I'll bet you magic will happen.

[Maggie Penman]

Yeah. And everyone wants to hear that, right? Everyone wants to hear, like, hey, I've been thinking about you, and I want to hang out more.

[Billy Baker]

Right. Maggie Penman, if I were to put you through that experiment, is there someone that comes to mind?

[Maggie Penman]

There is, actually. I think, honestly, the person who I'm thinking of is a colleague who I just adore. And every time I talk to her, I'm like, you are the most fun person I've ever talked to. But I have not made the move or been like, hey, can we, like, be friends outside of work? So I think I might try.

[Billy Baker]

Might try. I think.

[Maggie Penman]

I think I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

[Billy Baker]

I think you have the luck.

[Maggie Penman]

I'm gonna do it. Okay.

[Billy Baker]

Is this person in the building right now?

[Maggie Penman]

Yes.

[Billy Baker]

Maggie. Maggie.

[Podcast Narrator/Advertiser]

I know.

[Maggie Penman]

I know I can do it. I'm, like, blushing just thinking about it.

[Billy Baker]

I'm going to text you in a couple hours, and if you fail this assignment.

[Maggie Penman]

Okay, I'll let you know. I'm gonna go make a friend, and I'll get back to you. Billy Baker is a journalist and author of we need to Hang Out. It's a great book. I'll include a link in our show notes if you want to check it out. After this interview, I reached out to the coworker I was thinking of, the one who. I want to be my real friend, not just my work friend. Her name is Rachel Curzias. She writes for the Home. You own a section here at the Post. And I did something that felt very vulnerable. Yeah. Okay, Wait, so. So why are we here? Yeah. What's going on? Okay, so. Okay, so the reason I called you into the studio, this is. You're fired. We're trying this new thing. It's a reality TV show where we fire people on. No. Basically, I'm doing an episode about friendship. Oh. I'm getting, like, nervous. Ooh. I'M doing an episode about friendship, and I talked to this guy who wrote a book about how to make friends. And at the end of it, he was like, close your eyes and picture a person who you wish you were better friends with. And I thought of you. Oh, my God. Now I have chills. So I just wanted to say, rachel, will you be my friend?

[Billy Baker]

Yes.

[Maggie Penman]

It was really cute. Cause he realized he just needed to be more vulnerable. It is, I think, in some ways, more vulnerable than dating or something like that. Because with dating, there are a lot.

[Rachel Curtias]

Of reasons why it's like, oh, we're looking for different things.

[Maggie Penman]

I'm monogamous and I already have a partner. Whereas for friendship, the only reason you.

[Rachel Curtias]

Would say no is cause it's like.

[Maggie Penman]

I just don't feel that vibe. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Curtias]

So it is in many ways more vulnerable.

[Maggie Penman]

I think so, too. Okay, well, I think this is the beginning of a game.

[Rachel Curtias]

Oh, my God, this is so fun.

[Maggie Penman]

Yeah. And also now we have best work meeting ever. Right? I know. Well, thanks for coming. Thanks for being game. I love how I literally message you being like, can you come into the studio for mysterious reasons? And you're like, obviously, yeah, that sounds great. I love a mystery.

[Billy Baker]

Yeah.

[Maggie Penman]

So caveat here. Not everyone is as easy to talk to as Rachel Curtias, but the thing about being vulnerable is it does work. The event that I went to at that bar to try to make friends, I'll admit it was a little awkward at first, but everyone knew we were all there to make connections. I ended up having some really great conversations and meeting people I never would have met otherwise. A professional ballroom dancer. A nurse who works with patients who have dementia. An aid worker who travels for work to places like Sudan. I'm not sure yet how many lasting friendships will come out of it, but I believe that Billy's right. If you keep putting yourself out there and putting friendship on the to do list near the top, eventually something will click. I'm Maggie Penman, and I'm here most Saturdays bringing you optimistic stories to cleanse your feed. If you want more content, content like this, subscribe to our newsletter. And if you think there should be an optimist podcast, email me so I can forward it to my boss. My email is maggie.penmanashpost.com Today's episode was reported and produced by me with help from my friend Ted Muldoon. He also makes the show. My editor is Allison Klein. That's it for today. Call your friend or make a new one and have a great rest of your weekend.

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