Inside Bernie Sanders's anti-Trump resistance

Summary

Post Reports: Inside Bernie Sanders's Anti-Trump Resistance
Release Date: May 5, 2025
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi

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Introduction to the Fighting Oligarchy Rally

Post Reports delves into the burgeoning anti-Trump movement spearheaded by Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders and New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC). Hosted by Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi, the episode captures the essence of Sanders's "Fighting Oligarchy" tour, highlighting its significance in shaping contemporary Democratic resistance against President Donald Trump.

Witnessing the Movement Firsthand

Reporter Colby Yakowitz and co-host Laura Benshoff attend a large rally at an expo center in central Pennsylvania, observing enthusiastic crowds adorned with anti-Trump merchandise. Yakowitz notes, “These rallies... are creating an outlet for Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents to channel their frustrations” (00:57).

Voices of the Attendees

The episode features intimate interviews with several rally-goers, each expressing deep disillusionment with the current political landscape:

• Amber DeSantis (03:43):
  "I'm scared of what's going on right now... I could never have imagined this dystopian world that we're living in being real life."
  Amber articulates fears over diminishing freedoms, particularly concerning women's rights and healthcare access, exacerbated by Trump’s policies.

• Bonnie Cox (06:22):
  An editor of social studies curricula, Bonnie reflects on the tangible impacts of Trump’s executive orders, such as the renaming of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America, which she interprets as an intimidation tactic to stifle dissent.

• David Carnes and Katherine Rhett (07:04):
  Both in their 60s, they share personal stories of job losses among their children due to Elon Musk's policies and government inefficiencies, underscoring the real-life consequences of current administration decisions.

Bernie Sanders’ Rally Address

At the heart of the episode is Bernie Sanders’s impassioned speech delivered at the rally:

• Defeating Oligarchy and Authoritarianism (09:03):
  "Let us defeat oligarchy. Let us defeat authoritarianism and create a government and economy that works for all of us, not just a few."

• Critique of Ultra-Wealthy Elites (09:29):
  "People are sick and tired of a handful of billionaires running the United States government... dismantling the Social Security Administration, so it's harder for older disabled people."

Sanders emphasizes the need for policies that support the working class, such as stronger labor protections, universal healthcare, and free public college. He positions the second Trump administration as a catalyst that necessitates this renewed political activism.

Interview with Faz Shakir: Strategic Insights

Faz Shakir, a senior advisor to Sanders, provides a deeper analysis of the movement's challenges and strategies:

• Democratic Party’s Failings (15:01):
  "The Democratic Party has become too much controlled by billionaires and the consultant class and have turned their backs in many ways on the needs of the working class."

• Grassroots Mobilization (18:45):
  "We have organizers around the country who are building grassroots organizations to help candidates run for office as progressives... We need a political revolution in this country."

Shakir elaborates on the necessity of a political revolution to counteract the influence of ultra-wealthy donors and entrenched political consultants. He advocates for empowering everyday citizens to run for office and engage actively in the political process.

• Addressing Policy Misconceptions (22:25):
  "How are you going to sell it to Sky... Sanders is bringing this up because Paramount Global owns news outlets like CBS."
  Shakir discusses the challenges of media influence and the portrayal of progressive policies as “socialism,” which undermines public support.

Challenges and Future Directions

The episode highlights several obstacles facing Sanders's movement:

• Media and Wealthy Opposition:
  Shakir points out the significant barriers posed by media conglomerates and wealthy elites who oppose progressive reforms, making it difficult to gain widespread support for initiatives like Medicare for All.

• Internal Frustrations:
  Attendees like Scott Diener Jr. express frustration with rallies that “don’t have any teeth,” indicating a desire for more concrete actions and strategies beyond symbolic demonstrations (08:09).

• Engaging the Working Class:
  Both Sanders and Shakir emphasize the importance of reconnecting with the working class by addressing their real concerns—healthcare, job security, and economic stability—rather than adhering to the status quo that seems increasingly out of touch.

Conclusion: The Path Forward

Post Reports concludes by underscoring the critical role of Sanders’s movement in revitalizing Democratic activism. Faz Shakir remains optimistic, highlighting the influx of grassroots candidates eager to challenge the existing political order. The episode calls for a unified effort to stand against oligarchic influences and champion policies that truly benefit the majority.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Let us defeat oligarchy. Let us defeat authoritarianism and create a government and economy that works for all of us, not just a few.”
  — Bernie Sanders (00:33)

• “Why are we spending a trillion dollars on the military and you got 800,000 people sleeping out on the street?”
  — Faz Shakir (16:22)

• “We need a movement of working people to stand up and fight for a government and an economy that works for workers, not just the 1%.”
  — Bernie Sanders (13:21)

• “The Democratic Party has become too much controlled by billionaires and the consultant class...”
  — Faz Shakir (18:09)

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Timestamps Reference

• [00:03] to [25:31]: Full transcript coverage.
• Key moments and quotes are referenced throughout the summary with corresponding timestamps.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the pivotal discussions and insights from the Post Reports episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Laura Benshoff]

So we're walking through this vast parking lot. We're passing a lot of stands selling fighting oligarchy T shirts and buttons and hats. A lot of anti Trump merchandise.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Last Friday, I traveled to an expo center in central Pennsylvania. I went with two Post Reports producers because we wanted to witness firsthand this new political movement that's taking shape in response to the second Trump admin.

[Bernie Sanders]

Talk to other people. Talk to your Republican friends. They don't think that billionaires should get tax breaks. They don't think that Musk should be destroying Social Security. So let us stand together. Let us defeat oligarchy. Let us defeat authoritarianism and create a government and economy that works for all of us, not just a few.

[Colby Yakowitz]

You might recognize that voice. That's Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. He, along with New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, have been leading these fighting oligarchy rallies all over the country. They've drawn massive crowds in some places. I'm talking like tens of thousands of people. That kind of energy is usually reserved for presidential campaigns, but right now, these rallies, they're creating an outlet for Democrats and Democratic leaning independents to channel their frustrations. They're furious at President Donald Trump, but they're also disillusioned with the Democratic Party.

[Laura Benshoff]

I mean, if you could describe the Democratic Party in one word, how would you describe it right now? Cowards. I feel like they're just not doing enough to stand up to you. Yeah, I feel like they've abandoned the people.

[Colby Yakowitz]

We heard this over and over again.

[Faz Shakir]

Weak right now.

[Laura Benshoff]

Weak, too quiet.

[Amber DeSantis]

We wish they would attack President Trump. We wish they would go after him.

[Amber]

In one word. Oh, my God. Sos.

[Colby Yakowitz]

These Democrats are desperately seeking a political lifeline to get them through the next four years. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is. This is Post Reports. I'm Colby Yakowitz. It's Monday, May 5th. Today, inside One Stop on the Fighting Oligarchy tour and what it can tell us about the modern anti Trump movement. Then we'll bring you our interview with Senator Sanders himself. We'll hear about his plan for winning back the working class voters who have abandoned the Democratic Party.

[Faz Shakir]

The fundamental problem in this country is that you got many millions of people who look to Washington, D.C. and they see nobody fighting for their interests. And you got Trump coming along, trying to divide us up, and people fall for that.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Excuse me.

[Laura Benshoff]

Excuse me.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Hi. Hi. My name is Colby.

[Laura Benshoff]

I'm a reporter with the Washington Post with my colleague Laura.

[Amber]

Hi.

[Laura Benshoff]

We're with our podcast called Post Reports and We're just doing an episode about, you know, what's bringing people out to the rallies, wondering if we could chat with you and potentially.

[Amber]

Sure.

[Laura Benshoff]

Potentially. Gulf of Mexico, too.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. Before the rally begins, we flagged down a couple just inside the Expo Center. The man, he's wearing a Gulf of Mexico shirt, but he quickly ducked away. So we stop and talk with the woman, and she's wearing a black T shirt that says, I'm the outspoken liberal feminist they warned you about.

[Laura Benshoff]

Can I get your name?

[Amber]

Amber.

[Laura Benshoff]

Amber. And your Last name?

[Amber]

Amber DeSantis. D E capital S A N T I S like the Florida govern.

[Laura Benshoff]

No relation.

[Amber]

No relation, exactly. I know. I get that all the time. But yes.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Amber is 36 and lives in nearby Camphill, Pennsylvania. She shared three things we heard from pretty much everyone we spoke with. First, she is deeply distraught by the second Trump presidency. So what brought you out today?

[Amber]

I'm scared of what's going on right now. I'm sorry.

[Laura Benshoff]

Yeah, you're getting emotional.

[Amber]

I just. I'm disappointed in our country. There are freedoms being taken away from people and myself being a woman, fortunately, I live in a state with a Democratic governor, Josh Shapiro, and I still have my rights to abortion and health care as a woman, but there are a lot of other states that do not. And there are women that die because they don't have access to proper health care. And the illegal deportations, just the hostile takeover, the ignoring of the Constitution, the ignoring of Supreme Court justice orders. I could never have imagined this dystopian world that we're living in being real life.

[Colby Yakowitz]

The second thing that Amber tells us, and we heard this from other rally goers too, is that they're craving community and action.

[Amber]

I hope to hear hope from Bernie. I hope to hear what we as middle class can, can do to get more involved in getting out in our community and helping. What can I do to get involved? To put a stop to this, everyone.

[Colby Yakowitz]

We spoke with was a Democrat or an independent, including Amber, but they weren't solely motivated by ideology. The third thing we heard is that Trump's policy changes are already affecting their lives. Do you work?

[Laura Benshoff]

Are you.

[Amber]

So I am actually between jobs right now. I have a degree in healthcare administration. Had an interview at a really great company that my dad actually works for. And after my second interview, they asked to bring me back for third round interviews. And the day after that is when Trump implemented his tariffs and they went into a hiring freeze.

[Colby Yakowitz]

We talked to about a dozen people of all ages at the rally. There was Bonnie Cox, a 54 year old who edits social studies curriculums for schools.

[Laura Benshoff]

We've also had, in my company, we had. We've already had instances where they're using the Gulf of America, but we put little.

[Colby Yakowitz]

She's referencing one of Trump's earliest executive orders that renamed the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America because everyone's afraid.

[Laura Benshoff]

Of not being able to sell the curriculum to the schools across the nation.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Then there was David Carnes and Katherine Rhett, who are both in their 60s. They say their children are missing out on jobs because of the cuts made by Elon Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency.

[Amber DeSantis]

My daughter's been doged out of her job. Her son is going to end up not getting a position because of the Doge situation.

[Amber]

He's just graduating next weekend and his.

[Laura Benshoff]

Job offer was just pulled.

[Colby Yakowitz]

With all this angst, people are wondering what to do and who to follow. It's an open question who will lead the Democratic Party in their fight against a second Trump administration? Sanders, an independent, ran for the Democratic presidential nomination twice and lost twice. At 83 years old, he's not seen as a likely White House contender again, but he's created a durable political movement. Now he has to show that it can deliver results.

[Laura Benshoff]

Excuse me, is that a Teamster?

[Amber DeSantis]

LONGA yeah.

[Laura Benshoff]

Are you a teamster?

[Colby Yakowitz]

Scott Diener Jr. Is 40 years old. He's an independent from nearby Mechanicsburg. He works for a trucking company and is a member of the Teamsters Union. He said he's seen Sanders rally videos online, but wasn't totally sold yet.

[Amber DeSantis]

I'm having a hard time with a lot of the rallies and a lot of the marches and stuff like that because they don't have any teeth. You know, it's just a lot of show of people, but there's no real teeth there.

[Colby Yakowitz]

He says he likes Sanders message, but he wants a plan. He wants to be told what to do besides go vote in the 2026 midterms.

[Amber DeSantis]

It's getting frustrating seeing one side being able to be like, oh, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this. And then the other side saying, just kind of laying down and taking it. We're making TikTok videos and dancing on.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Them when we wrap up. Diener heads down the hallway into a big hangar where the crowd has gathered. Sanders takes the stage just after 6:30. He's headlining solo, this time without Ocasio Cortez, and he begins delivering a message similar to the one that he's been delivering his whole career.

[Bernie Sanders]

Thank you, Harrisburg. What a fantastic turnout. Thank you all very much for being here.

[Colby Yakowitz]

He calls for policies like stronger labor protections, universal health care, and free public college. And now the second Trump administration has given him some new ways to blame ultra wealthy elites for the plight of the working class.

[Bernie Sanders]

People are sick and tired of a handful of billionaires running the United States government. And I want you to think about it for a moment. Think about the richest man on earth, Mr. Musk, worth 3,400 billion dollars, running all over Washington, D.C. dismantling the Social Security Administration, so it's harder for older disabled people.

[Colby Yakowitz]

After the break, we hear from Sanders himself about how he plans to translate the energy he's building into action. We'll be right back.

[Thanet Naropil]

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[Colby Yakowitz]

After the rally, we meet with Sanders in a small cinder block room in the back of the fair complex. The first thing he does is tuck in his shirt.

[Faz Shakir]

My wife doesn't care what I say.

[Laura Benshoff]

But she worries about how I Look, all right, great. So, Senator, we talked to a lot of attendees before the rally. We asked them what they wanted to hear from you, and they said they wanted something actionable, something they can do. They feel desperate in this moment. What are all these rallies building towards?

[Faz Shakir]

Short term, to make sure that Republicans are not successful in passing this disastrous reconciliation bill. And I talked about that tonight.

[Bernie Sanders]

It's Trump's big, beautiful bill. And what this big, beautiful bill will do is cut over $800 billion in Medicaid, cut nutrition programs for hungry kids, and cut educational programs.

[Faz Shakir]

As you know, the Republicans have a three or four vote margin in the House. We turn around two or three members of Congress, Republicans, he can't pass that bill. And at a time when so many people are hurting in terms of not being able to afford health care, the idea of $800 billion cuts in Medicaid to get tax breaks for billionaires is absolutely outrageous. And we are doing our best to make sure that this particular congressman, Mr. Perry, does not vote for that legislation. Longer term, not that long. We want to make sure that Republicans do not retain control of the U.S. house. That is achievable. If we do that, we can go a long way to stymie Trump's horrendous agenda. Longer term than that. What we are doing right now is we have organizers around the country who are building grassroots organizations to help candidates run for office as progressives, either as Democrats or as independents, on an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class. We need a political revolution in this country. The Republican Party has become right wing extremists. The Democratic Party has is far too much controlled by billionaires and the consultant class and have turned their backs in many ways on the needs of the working class. So we need a movement of working people to stand up and fight for a government and an economy that works for workers, not just the 1%.

[Laura Benshoff]

Senator, no one would deny that you created a massive political revolution back in 2016 that has continued for years. And yet in this last election, it feels like people voted against that. They voted for less government instead of more government.

[Faz Shakir]

No, I don't see it that way.

[Laura Benshoff]

You don't see it that way?

[Faz Shakir]

No, I see it. I think in all due respect to Trump, it wasn't his brilliant ideas of tax breaks for billionaires and cuts to Medicaid or his denial of the reality of climate change, the one in the election. I think there is profound disgust with the American political system right now. I think if you go to a Republican group and you Ask them whether they think it's okay for Elon Musk and other billionaires to help buy elections. They will tell you no. I think there are many working people who used to vote Democratic and are saying, well, what are the Democrats done? How come we are the only major country not to guarantee health care to go? Why do we have the highest rate of childhood poverty? What are we doing about the housing crisis? So I think Trump's victory is significantly, not totally significantly, a response to the inactivity or the inability of the Democratic Party to stand up for the working class of this country.

[Laura Benshoff]

So how do you, how do you convince voters, particularly some of those working class voters that maybe moved towards Trump, moved towards the Republicans, that it's not so much that government doesn't work, it's that it hasn't been working for them and that it could work better because they don't believe that government is working for them?

[Faz Shakir]

Well, they're right. I agree with them. Look, you heard me. Did you hear the speech?

[Colby Yakowitz]

I did, yeah.

[Faz Shakir]

All right, you tell me why we're the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care at all. Why are we spending a trillion dollars on the military and you got 800,000 people sleeping out on the street? Why are our kids unable to go to college? Why is our child care system a disaster? Why are 60% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, and we have a minimum wage of seven and a quarter an hour? So if you're an average person out there, you work and you say, how the hell does this happen? Who's standing up for me? And Trump comes along and he says, the system is broken. All right? That's what he says. I will fix it. Right, right. That was his motto. Well, the system is broken. Problem is, his ideas are going to make a bad situation worse. But the Democrats have got to understand the status quo is not working. You cannot defend the status quo. You cannot say, oh, the Affordable Care act is great, really go out and you talk to people, see how they think about the Affordable Care Act. Oh, we can't raise the minimum wage. We can't be aggressive on climate change. So, again, I think the fundamental problem in this country is that you got many millions of people who look to Washington, D.C. and they see nobody fighting for their interests. And you got Trump coming along, trying to divide us up, and people fall for that. But the remedy is a Democratic Party that stands full square with the working class of this country.

[Laura Benshoff]

We heard from a lot of people tonight that we spoke to who Feel like you're the only person fighting. We asked them to describe the Democratic Party, and they said things like disappointing, cowardly. Some woman said, sos, Please help us. Is it a problem? The Democrats don't seem to be unified around a message to attack the president.

[Faz Shakir]

That's too long a discussion for you.

[Laura Benshoff]

We have all night.

[Faz Shakir]

I don't have all night. The answer is you have a Democratic Party that is largely influenced by billionaire campaign donors. That's the reality. And a whole crew of consultants, well paid consultants, who are way out of touch with the needs of the working class. So what we have got to do, and the reason I'm here now is, and I should tell you, just the other day, a couple of days ago, we had. Was it Faz? 2000 people on Zoom.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Faz Shakir is a senior advisor to Sanders who's standing nearby.

[Faz Shakir]

Yeah. We had 2,000 people who have told us in responding to an email that we sent out, they want to run for office. Okay. And they want to run from school board to Congress. And we have a process to vet those people, to work with them. But at the end of the day, that's what a political revolution is about, is involving people in the political process, giving them the confidence that they can run for office, they can support other people, they can fight for an agenda that works for them. The great crisis facing this country today is what the establishment has said is that policies that represent working class people are unthinkable. They're unrealistic, they're utopian. They can't happen. You tell me. All right, Just smart. Why are we the only country on Earth not to guarantee health care to all people? I live 50 miles away from the Canadian border. Is it impossible? Why? Who's talking about it? All right.

[Laura Benshoff]

They say it's acceptable.

[Faz Shakir]

I'm interviewing you. Who is? You get around. Who in the Democratic Party is talking about doing what every other major country on Earth does in terms of health care? Anybody?

[Laura Benshoff]

Medicare for all.

[Faz Shakir]

Yeah.

[Laura Benshoff]

Your traveling companion, Representative Alexandria Ocadio Cortez.

[Faz Shakir]

But. So you asked me why people are giving up. Yeah. Why are Alexandria and I the only people talking about it when every other country does it?

[Laura Benshoff]

So why aren't Democrats talking? It doesn't. It seems like.

[Faz Shakir]

You're the reporter. You're asking me. Why don't you ask that to Mr. Schumer?

[Laura Benshoff]

Yeah. They see it as a political third rail issue. They see it as something that they can't really.

[Faz Shakir]

Guaranteeing health care to all people is a third political rail, Right? No. Try again.

[Laura Benshoff]

Yeah.

[Faz Shakir]

What's the real answer?

[Laura Benshoff]

I imagine that you would say it's because they're beholden to insurance companies.

[Faz Shakir]

And do you know what kind of war the insurance companies, the drug companies would wage against Medicare for All? How much money? All right. You have a situation. In almost every speech that I give, I talk about what I feel very strongly about. The horrific war that Israel and Netanyahu are waging against the very poor people in Gaza. 50,000 dead, 112,000 wounded, entire infrastructure destroyed. Israel had a right to defend itself. They didn't have a right to destroy the Palestinian people. How many people talk about that issue now? Do you know what polls show? A strong majority of the American people think we should not be giving more military aid to Netanyahu. I got 15 votes. Yeah. All right. A lot of this stuff, in fact, comes back to money in politics.

[Laura Benshoff]

Sure.

[Faz Shakir]

Okay. And that's the simple reality.

[Laura Benshoff]

Yeah. And if there's not more Bernie Sanders and AOCs, what happens?

[Faz Shakir]

There are more Bernie Sanders and AOCs than they're out there right now. That's our job, is to bring forth that.

[Laura Benshoff]

You got to get them to run for office.

[Faz Shakir]

It's only run for office. Get them to stand up. This. My God, there's so many great people all over this country. That's about the privilege of meeting them in every state in America. And we ought to get them to have the confidence to stand up, to run for office, to get involved in the trade union movement. One of the nice things we're seeing is a revitalization.

[Laura Benshoff]

But there were a lot of people in unions that voted for Trump.

[Faz Shakir]

Yep, they did. But that gets you back to the question you asked.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Right.

[Faz Shakir]

So I don't want to give you the same answer I gave you.

[Colby Yakowitz]

That's fair.

[Bernie Sanders]

All right, one more.

[Faz Shakir]

We're out of here.

[Laura Benshoff]

How do you convince those people, those working class voters, that the vilification of some of your ideas as socialism, that it would end our America as we know it? Like, how do you convince those people, again, that voted for Trump, that believe that Medicare for all is bad for this country, even if they want better healthcare? How do you convince them? Is there a way to reach those?

[Faz Shakir]

Well, look, I mean, one of the problems we're dealing with also is, and that's a whole other long story, is media and, you know, the power of. You know, I mentioned that today, I went out of my way to mention it, that you have the Redstone family, you're familiar with that, owning Paramount.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Yeah.

[Faz Shakir]

Trying to sell it to. Who are they selling it to Sky. What's her name? Anyone remember?

[Colby Yakowitz]

It's Skydance. Though none of us could remember that at the time. Sanders is bringing this up because Paramount Global owns news outlets like cbs.

[Faz Shakir]

Anyhow. I mean, hey, yo, why don't we talk about the Washington Post? All right. The power of the billionaire class. How's your editorial board doing lately? Do you have one anymore?

[Laura Benshoff]

Well, luckily, the news side is. Is still protected, but. No, I understand that.

[Faz Shakir]

So you're asking me, and I'm talking about money in politics. You work for a paper where your second wealthiest guy in the country said, we're not going to allow the editorial board to endorse Harris. And in fact, we're getting rid of the editorial board and we're going to become more conservative. And Washington Post is an influential media for sure. That's what we're dealing with.

[Colby Yakowitz]

Okay, a quick aside. While it's true that Bezos has made controversial changes to the editorial side of the newspaper, the editorial board of the Post continues to exist. And as a journalist, I don't speak for Jeff Bezos, the owner of the Post. We finished up the interview with Sanders with a question I've had for a while.

[Faz Shakir]

All right.

[Laura Benshoff]

How do you keep fighting? Because you've been fighting these fights your whole career.

[Faz Shakir]

Because I'm young. That's why. I'm not old like you.

[Laura Benshoff]

You're up against. You're up against all of this, right?

[Faz Shakir]

We are. But, you know, these things inspire me and especially the young people that I see. There's a lot of wonderful people in this country. And, you know, giving hope to people, seeing them stand up and fight back is, to me, very inspiring.

[Laura Benshoff]

Okay, thank you so much.

[Faz Shakir]

Thank you very much.

[Laura Benshoff]

I really appreciate it.

[Faz Shakir]

Thank you.

[Colby Yakowitz]

That was Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont. You also heard interviews from rally goers, Elizabeth Hayes, Diana and Michaela Kulbaugh, Lonnie Cox, Katherine Rhett, David Carnes, Scott Deiner Jr. And Amber DeSantis. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. This episode was produced by Laura Benshoff with help from Emma Talkoff. It was edited by Rena Flores and mixed by Shawn Carter. Thanks to Jorge Rivas and Sean Sullivan. I'm Colby Ekowitz. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post. There's an efficient way to get caught.

[Laura Benshoff]

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