Inside ex-Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro's fight to stay out of prison

Summary

Post Reports: Inside ex-Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro's Fight to Stay Out of Prison

Episode Overview Post Reports, hosted by Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi, delves into the tumultuous political landscape of Brazil, focusing on former President Jair Bolsonaro's ongoing battle to avoid imprisonment. Released on July 14, 2025, this episode offers an in-depth exploration of Bolsonaro's rise, his controversial actions post-presidency, and the broader implications for democracy in Latin America.

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1. Introduction to Jair Bolsonaro's Political Turmoil

Time Stamp: [00:34]

Elahe Izadi sets the stage by drawing parallels between the tumultuous events in Brazil and the infamous January 6, 2021, insurrection in the United States. She highlights the charged atmosphere following Bolsonaro's narrow election loss and the subsequent violent insurrection on January 8, 2023.

2. Bolsonaro: A Divisive Figure in Brazilian Politics

Time Stamp: [01:11] - [02:25]

Terry McCoy describes Bolsonaro as "without a doubt the most divisive politician that Brazil has seen since it became a democracy again in 1985" ([01:11]). Marina Diaz adds that Bolsonaro thrives on being surrounded by his supporters, emphasizing his populist and charismatic approach to politics.

Bolsonaro, a former military officer, gained prominence through populist rhetoric and machismo, leading to his election as Brazil's president in 2018. However, his tenure was marred by divisive policies and contentious remarks, ultimately leading to his defeat in the 2020 re-election by Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.

3. The January 8, 2023 Insurrection: Echoes of January 6

Time Stamp: [12:29] - [20:02]

Elahe Izadi contrasts Brazil's January 8 insurrection with the U.S. January 6 events. Terry McCoy provides a detailed account:

"Thousands of people descended upon Brasília. They were joined by a radical faction... breaking into the buildings and vandalizing them. It was a stunning echo of what had happened in Washington on January 6th" ([12:29]).

The insurrection targeted Brazil's Supreme Court, Presidential palace, and Congressional buildings. Bolsonaro's role is scrutinized, as he had repeatedly claimed the 2022 election was "rigged against him," setting the stage for the unrest.

4. Bolsonaro's Criminal Charges and Legal Battles

Time Stamp: [22:17] - [33:44]

Following the insurrection, Bolsonaro faces serious allegations, including orchestrating a coup to maintain power and plotting the assassination of rivals like Lula da Silva. Marina Diaz outlines the charges:

"He's under trial on the charges of staging a coup to stay in power" ([02:18]).

The investigation began with the discovery of a fraudulent COVID vaccine card Bolsonaro used when traveling to the U.S., which led authorities to uncover his and his allies' attempts to undermine democracy. As a result, Bolsonaro is banned from running for office until 2030 and faces potential imprisonment for up to 30 years if convicted.

5. Bolsonaro and Donald Trump: Parallels and Divergences

Time Stamp: [03:07] - [31:49]

The episode explores the relationship between Bolsonaro and former U.S. President Donald Trump. Terry McCoy notes Trump's support for Bolsonaro, even declaring him "one of the great presidents of any country in the world" ([11:07]). However, despite their similarities in populist approaches, their legal predicaments differ significantly.

Bolsonaro contrasts his situation with Trump's, suggesting both are victims of "lawfare" and overzealous prosecutions. Yet, unlike Trump, Bolsonaro faces stringent legal barriers preventing his return to office, partly due to Brazil's robust democracy preservation laws established post-dictatorship.

6. Exclusive Interview with Jair Bolsonaro

Time Stamp: [07:29] - [37:54]

Elahe Izadi provides an insider look into a rare interview with Bolsonaro, conducted by Terry McCoy and Marina Diaz. Key moments include:

• Bolsonaro's Demeanor: Despite facing possible imprisonment, Bolsonaro appears "big, gregarious, and really took over that room" ([08:25]).

• Displaying Trump's Endorsement: He prominently showcases a book with a handwritten note from Trump saying, "Jair, you are great" ([09:12]).

• Denial of Involvement: Bolsonaro vehemently denies orchestrating the January 8 insurrection, labeling the allegations as "complete baloney" ([27:17]).

• Symbolism and Personal Narratives: Bolsonaro shares personal anecdotes, including surviving an assassination attempt in 2018, which he uses to craft a "Messiah-like" image ([32:59]). His middle name, Messias (Messiah), underscores this narrative ([33:24]).

• Populist Gestures: The former president gifts reporters personalized items tied to his campaign slogans, such as a coin bearing the vulgar term "imbroxavio," symbolizing his appeal to traditional masculinity and virility ([35:52]).

Both reporters returned the gifts, adhering to journalistic ethics.

7. Implications for Brazilian and Global Democracy

Time Stamp: [38:46] - [40:03]

The discussion shifts to the broader impact of Bolsonaro's legal challenges on democracy both in Brazil and globally. Terry McCoy emphasizes Brazil's role as a bellwether nation, highlighting how its response to authoritarianism and democratic preservation can influence other countries facing similar threats.

Marina Diaz reflects on the uniqueness of Brazil's legal framework, which effectively holds politicians accountable, contrasting it with systems like that of the United States.

8. Conclusion: A Pivotal Moment for Democracy

Time Stamp: [40:09]

Elahe Izadi wraps up the episode by acknowledging the significance of Bolsonaro's trial and its potential as a case study for democracies worldwide grappling with populist and authoritarian tendencies. The hosts underscore the importance of holding leaders accountable to preserve democratic institutions and prevent the erosion of democratic norms.

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Notable Quotes:

• Terry McCoy: "Jair Bolsonaro is... the most divisive politician that Brazil has seen since it became a democracy again in 1985." ([01:11])

• Marina Diaz: "I thought, I will die. I'm not exaggerating. Like, it was very, very terrifying." ([19:25])

• Bolsonaro: "It's completely absurd to say that he had plotted to assassinate Lula." ([27:17])

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Final Remarks

This episode of Post Reports offers a comprehensive examination of Jair Bolsonaro's efforts to evade justice amidst serious allegations and the broader struggle between authoritarianism and democratic resilience in Brazil. Through exclusive interviews and expert analysis, listeners gain valuable insights into the precarious state of Latin America's largest democracy and the global implications for democratic institutions.

Transcript

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[Elahe Izadi]

Just a few years ago, a national political leader lost a very close election. A violent insurrection followed on an early January day, there were questions about this leader's alleged involvement. A high stakes legal drama followed. I am not talking about the United States or January 6, 2021 or Donald Trump. I'm talking about Brazil, Latin America's largest democracy. What happened there in January 2023 and the actions of its former president.

[Terry McCoy]

Jair Bolsonaro is I think without doubt the most divisive politician that Brazil has seen since it became a democracy again in 1985.

[Marina Diaz]

Bolsonaro is the kind of politician who find power being around people, being around supporters.

[Elahe Izadi]

This is Terry McCoy and Marina Diaz. They're reporters for the Post in Brazil and they've covered Bolsonaro for years. Bolsonaro is a former military officer. He rose to popularity on a wave of populist rhetoric and machismo. He was elected Brazil's president in 2018, but then he lost re election in 2020 to Luis Inacio Lula da Silva. Now Bolsonaro is bracing for one of the most pivotal moments in his life and for democracy in Latin America.

[Marina Diaz]

Former President Jair Bolsonaro will be standing trial for attempting a coup following the last election.

[Elahe Izadi]

He's under trial on the charges of staging a coup.

[Marina Diaz]

The former president is accused of plotting.

[Elahe Izadi]

A coup to stay in power.

[Marina Diaz]

After losing the 2022 election to Luizinacio.

[Elahe Izadi]

Lula da Silva, Bolsonaro is facing allegations that he plotted to assassinate his rivals and stay in power. Bolsonaro has denied the accusations. He's expected to stand trial in Brazil's Supreme Court this fall. If convicted, Bolsonaro, who is now 70, could be locked up for decades.

[Marina Diaz]

So now he is in this moment trying to figure out how to not go to jail.

[Terry McCoy]

This is a moment when this figure, who has historically been or in recent years has been Latin America's most powerful politician, is now reckoning with his downfall.

[Elahe Izadi]

US President Donald Trump, who's supported Bolsonaro in the past weighed in on all this. Last week, he called Bolsonaro's trial a witch hunt when he announced a 50% tariff on Brazil. But before that happened, Terry and Marina got a rare and exclusive window into the former Brazilian president's thinking and his desire for a Trump intervention. Bolsonaro met with them one morning this spring at the Liberal Party headquarters in Brasilia. They spoke over coffee. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Elahe izadi. It's Monday, July 14th. Today, Terry and Marina take us into the revealing morning they had with former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro. We learn why, despite some of the similarities between Bolsonaro and Trump, the two men are in very different situations right now. And we explore what Bolsonaro's case can tell us about democracy in the U.S. terry, Marina, thank you both so much for joining me today.

[Terry McCoy]

Thanks for having us.

[Marina Diaz]

Thank you.

[Elahe Izadi]

First, let me ask you both, if you can just give me quick background on who Jair Bolsonaro is.

[Terry McCoy]

So Jair Bolsonaro is a figure that rose from the fringes of Brazilian politics and was widely known for someone who made a lot of offensive comments and incendiary comments that were misogynistic, racist. But he wasn't really known for any sort of legislative successes, any sort of real power that he held. The other major thing he was known for was the fact that he has been a longtime admirer of the Brazilian dictatorship. And the Brazilian dictatorship ruled the country for 20 years from 1964 to 1985. And during that time, a lot of people were disappeared, a lot of people were tortured. And Jair Bolsonaro was somebody who was an admirer of that. And he ultimately rose as sort of being this sort of outsider type political identity to power.

[Elahe Izadi]

And I understand both of you met with him in person. First of all, how big of a deal is it to have a sit down meeting with Jair Bolsonaro right now?

[Terry McCoy]

In this moment, this is a figure that has been polarized and divided Brazil like no other in recent years. And in this moment right now, he's now potentially going to jail. So this is a crucial moment in Brazilian politics and also just in Latin American politics. And this tug of war between the authoritarian right and democratic forces across the world. To sit down and have that moment with him, I felt was a, was a really important opportunity.

[Elahe Izadi]

And Marina, what about for you? You're a reporter with the Post, but you're also a Brazilian journalist. How did you feel going into this interview.

[Marina Diaz]

I met Bolsonaro before a few times. So I've seen him a few times before that, but it was the first time that I got to sit with. For an exclusive interview with another journalist, with me. And this other journalist was a man, Terry. Yeah.

[Elahe Izadi]

So why is that relevant here?

[Marina Diaz]

Because there is a gender thing, like Bolsonaro respects better when he's talking to a man. And I had a history with Bolsonaro. Yeah. Like, he called me a real term as a woman once when I asked him a question he didn't like about Brazil's fundings, was nothing super important in public.

[Elahe Izadi]

In public, yeah.

[Marina Diaz]

During, like, a press conference when he was In Texas in 2019, I was the US correspondent for a Brazilian newspaper, and I went to cover this trip, and so I asked a question and he didn't like it, and he yelled at me and et cetera. So we have this history.

[Elahe Izadi]

Oh, wow.

[Marina Diaz]

But I was nervous about how he would.

[Elahe Izadi]

So let's start there. You both make your way to this meeting in Priscilla at the Liberal Party headquarters. Then you arrive. Put me there with you. Terry, how did that meeting start? What happened in the beginning?

[Terry McCoy]

Well, I was just. I just remember going into this meeting, and we were just sitting there waiting for him. We turned on our recorders. We just made it inside the headquarters. The Parchido Liberado, the PL party in Brazil. And it's kind of. This is where Bolsonaro spends most of his days. And I was just glancing about the room, I was glancing about the Liberal Party headquarters, and I was just taken aback by the number of images and photos and paintings. And you walk into the headquarters, it's just a giant poster of Bolsonaro in front of thousands of people. Any way you could render. Jair Bolsonaro's image was represented in this place. You see on the coffee mugs, there's pictures of them. I mean, his representation was just omnipresent. And then he coming into the room was Jared Bolsano himself. And in that moment, just seeing him come in.

[Cleve Wootson]

Good morning.

[Terry McCoy]

Good morning. Surprised by how big he was and physically imposing. He was. I'm about six foot one and he's about my height. And he was big, gregarious, and really took over that room.

[Marina Diaz]

I mean, he was in a good mood. Like, I was not expecting that. Like, he knows that he might be convicted.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah.

[Marina Diaz]

So I was expecting that he'd be.

[Elahe Izadi]

A little more depressed.

[Marina Diaz]

Exactly.

[Terry McCoy]

The imprint of Trump feels pretty distinct here at the office. Right here in the meeting room where we're Going to meet with Bolsonaro. We walk into the suite where we're going to meet with Bolsonaro, and one of the first things we see when we arrive is on the table there in the meeting room, there is a book, like a big, thick coffee table book, and it's about Donald Trump. And on the front page of that book is a handwritten note from Trump to Bolsonaro saying, jair, you are great.

[Marina Diaz]

And he wants to show us, like, how he gets this, how he has a signature from Trump. And he was like, I didn't pay for it. Everybody needed to buy this book, but he sent it to me. So it was like one of the first things that he wants us to see, like his relationship with Trump.

[Elahe Izadi]

And why do you think he was so insistent on showing you that during this meeting?

[Marina Diaz]

So he admires Trump. Like he was expecting that Trump could say something about him supporting him.

[Elahe Izadi]

You mean supporting Bolsonaro as he's fighting this case?

[Marina Diaz]

Yes, because Brazilian authorities, they are investigating and they say they have proofs that he was in charge of a coup attempt in Brazil. So he is in this moment where he is trying to be on the stage while he fight against. To go to jail.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah. I want to ask you more about what Bolsonaro said it would mean to get that support from Trump now. But what was Trump and Bolsonaro's relationship like when Bolsonaro was in power?

[Marina Diaz]

Well, when he was a president, they were close. I mean, Bolsonaro doesn't speak English. Okay. So he needs always a translation to talk to Trump. But of course, they like each other. And literally, Bolsonaro said once, I love you, during a meeting to Donald Trump when he was in New York for.

[Terry McCoy]

The UN Summit, during his time in the presidency and even the years after the presidency for Trump during his first term, he said a lot of very, very warm things about Bolsonaro, who always. Bolsonaro embraced Trump and Trumpinism in a way that few other politicians had. And Trump became enamored of that and talked about Bolsonaro. You know, he rooted for Bolsonaro during the 2022 election here in Brazil. To the people of Brazil, you have a great opportunity to re elect a fantastic leader, a fantastic man, one of.

[Marina Diaz]

The great presidents of any country in the world. President Bolsonaro.

[Terry McCoy]

He's done an absolutely incredible job with.

[Marina Diaz]

Your economy, with your country.

[Elahe Izadi]

Terry and Marina, I feel like at the center of what Bolsonaro is now facing is what happened on January 8, 2023, in Brazil. And this is right after Bolsonaro lost his reelection. I know this is a big part of your conversation with him. In the U.S. we talk about January 6, 2021, the insurrection on the U.S. capitol. But January 8, 2023, in Brazil was when many of Bolsonaro's supporters vandalized Brazil's capital and presidential palace in response to election results of Bolsonaro losing. Terry, tell me more about what happened on January 8th.

[Terry McCoy]

So January 8th was what can only be considered an insurrection or popular uprising. Thousands of people descended upon Brasilia. They were joined by something of a radical faction that had been camping out in front of military barracks in Brasilia, calling for the military to subvert democracy and take over the country and install a military control once more. And those people joined this mass of thousands of protesters, and the movement became increasingly unruly as the morning drew on until early afternoon, when it was a storming of all three branches of Brazilian democracy. The Supreme Court, the Presidential palace, and the Congressional buildings. They broke into these buildings and they vandalized them. And it was stunning to see just such a striking echo of what had happened in Washington on January 6th. But this was in Brazil. And I should also say that Bolsonaro himself set the stage for this violence. He was saying that his election loss in 2022 was false, that the election was rigged against him, that his voters were being cheated without ever providing any.

[Elahe Izadi]

Evidence in this interview. How did Bolsonaro recount that day?

[Marina Diaz]

He denied that he was part of it. He denies that he was the leader of that movement. So he, after losing the election, he flew to the United States. So he was here in the US while January 8th was happening. And this is his defense. Now, I have nothing to do with this because I was in the us I was not even in Brazil.

[Elahe Izadi]

Wasn't he like, in a publix, like a grocery store? Is that true?

[Marina Diaz]

Yeah. Like he was in Florida. Yeah. So, like, he was, like, trying to show that he was a simple man trying to live a simple life in the US While everything back there in Brazil was happening. So this is his defense. I am a victim of the system. People are, like, attacking me, but I have nothing to deal with this.

[Terry McCoy]

The major thing he's trying to get across to us in this interview is the fact that the people who were storming the Capitol that day on January 8, which was a violent assault on the three pillars of Brazilian government, was. He's trying to recast that day as something of a protest by very innocent people. He talked a lot about how it was just popcorn Popcorn sellers or people who sell simple things in the streets, trying to say, these were just like regular, everyday folk. These are not hardened criminals. And so this was his narrative that day, was that this was not the act of a military coup, was not the act of armed men on the streets. It was the act of. Of regular, everyday Brazilians who were led to believe by Bolsonaro's own rhetoric that the election had been stolen from them and stolen from Jair Bolsonaro, a conclusion that he had asserted multiple times.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah. And in his telling, you know, it sounds like he's really downplaying the violence. And, Marina, I'm wondering for you what was going through your mind as he's telling you this, because as I understand it, you were there on January 8th in Brasilia as this was unfolding.

[Marina Diaz]

Yeah. So it was a Sunday. Yeah, January 8th, that year was a Sunday. So I was not working that day. I was having lunch with my husband at a restaurant, and then I started to see people passing through the restaurant, a lot of people, and they were, like, wearing a Brazilian jersey, which is, like, a symbol of Bolsonaro's support. Yeah, Brazil soccer team jersey. I told my husband, like, look, something is happening here. So I text Anthony Faiola, who was working with me. He would be there in Brasilia the next day on Monday. And I said, I think the Brazilian January 6th is happening today. And he was like, are you sure? And I was like, I'm 100% sure.

[Elahe Izadi]

Wow. And Anthony Fiola is a reporter for the Post.

[Marina Diaz]

Exactly. And he was like, do you feel comfortable to go there? And I was like, yeah, of course this is happening here. I'm a reporter. I'm going down there. So I went there and I started to cover. Yeah. So I started to interview people. I started to record videos, photos, and I was listening to this woman talking about, oh, in the US this happened. Do you remember that? So she was talking about January 6th.

[Elahe Izadi]

And this is someone you're just interviewing there.

[Marina Diaz]

Exactly. So I heard her saying that, and, like, I approached her and I said, hey, I am a journalist from an American outlet. Can I interview you about your views? Yeah. And she was like, yeah, yeah, I can do that. So I started asking a few questions, and at some point, there was this guy behind her who started yelling at me. I asked her, like, do you think this was inspired by January 6th? And she would say, yes. And then he started to say, no, there is no inspiration here. There was fraud, election fraud. Don't answer her. He said, don't answer her. And I said, I am asking a question. And he was like, no, you were not asking any questions. You were putting some words in her mouth. And he started to run after me. And so I ran. And at some point, someone pulled me on the ground, and a lot of people started to beat me, to pull my hair. They broke my glasses. It was a nightmare. And I don't know, dozens of people, like, a lot of people around me beat me, beating me. And I. I thought, I will die. I'm not exaggerating. Like, it was very, very terrifying. And at some point, there was this guy that got me out of the.

[Elahe Izadi]

Like pulled you up?

[Marina Diaz]

Yes, exactly. And then a military guy, he got me and. And put me inside the building to protect me. But this group, they stayed out of the building, like, throwing things and, like, yelling at me. Even when I was inside the building.

[Elahe Izadi]

They kept trying to cut after.

[Marina Diaz]

Yes, it's a lot of anger.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah.

[Marina Diaz]

So, yeah, there was violence and there was a lot of violence.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah. And then, you know, as you go to this interview with Bolsonaro and hearing him say that this day was, you know, wasn't so violent, and, you know, these are just regular people. And given your own experience, I mean, how was it for you to hear him say that?

[Marina Diaz]

Yeah, I mean, like, as a journalist, like, our job is not, like, debate everything with him, but we need to put in a context. Yeah. And this is what we. We did. We write about what he's saying, but we put everything in a context, in a big picture, so we can show people what happened that day. I was a victim of that violence, but I didn't say anything to him because it was not my role there.

[Elahe Izadi]

After the break, how a fraudulent COVID vaccine card led investigators to uncover an alleged coup attempt. We'll be right back.

[Cleve Wootson]

My name is Cleve Wootson. I'm a White House reporter for the Washington Post. In addition to generally breaking news about whatever the president and the administration are doing, I also write about the impact of policies and politics across the country. I think a lot of Washington reporting is based on the most powerful people, but the impacts of all of that stuff happens to people that grew up very similar to the way that I grew up. We grew up lower middle class a lot of our lives, you know, whether it be free lunch or public housing or whatever was impacted by decisions that are made in Washington. So if people just have more insight into how all of this stuff is working, it's a good day for me. Subscribers support this work and the people behind it. Learn [e-mail] subscribe I'm Cleve Wootson, and I'm one of the people behind the post.

[Elahe Izadi]

You know, listening to you Both talk about January 8th, it makes me think about January 6th in this country and how this country has over the years responded to that event, the insurrection on the US Capitol in various iterations and forms. And I'm wondering, Terry, how would you describe how Brazil as a country responded to the events of January 8th and made sense of what happened?

[Terry McCoy]

Yeah, very differently. And I think a lot of this comes back, Alahi, to the different relationships that both countries have had with authoritarianism and with dictatorships, where in Brazil, this is a country that did live under the shadow of authoritarianism and dictatorship and all that that means for 20 years. And when it came out of that, when it came out of that Shadow in the mid-1980s and finally in 1988 with the passage of a new constitution, it created a framework that analysts here call democracy preservation laws. And that is a legal framework that really enabled the offending politicians or corrupt officials to be held to account. And there are laws that prosecutors can follow and then actually hold these folks to account once something like that happens. So when there was an alleged coup attempt In Brazil in 2022 and 2023, prosecutors and investigators already had that legal framework on which they could lean upon and to be able to prosecute these cases. And so there's something in Brazil called the tse, which is the electoral system court. This is something that the United States does not have. It's a court through which politicians can be pretty much disqualified from being able to run for court again or be able to run for politics again or political office. And that is something that Brazil has to be able to hold politicians to account, that the United States just doesn't have a system like that. So you saw this system really kicking into gear after January 8th.

[Elahe Izadi]

So there's this investigation. And what did this investigation turn up?

[Terry McCoy]

The whole thing started off actually, because when Jair Bolsonaro went to the United States after losing the election, he went in with a vaccine card, a COVID vaccine card that authorities said was fraudulent. And through the investigation of that fraudulent Covid vaccination card, investigators started looking into a lot more conversations of his top deputies, his top allies. And that ultimately led them to unravel what is alleged to be a operatic drama to subvert Brazilian democracy and to keep Jared Bolsonaro in power. And what that meant was it was something of a long time concerted effort, they say, by Bolsonaro and his allies to A, undermine confidence in the Brazilian vote, and then B, when Lula won, to actively try to create emergency set of populations powers that would disqualify those election results, and then C, resort to actual violence to be able to carry out those ends. And there is evidence of written documents that he is alleged to have reviewed and edited, and these documents are pretty much to grant him emergency powers that would enable a military coup. And so the authorities claim that there was even an assassination plot to kill Lula, his vice presidential candidate and one of the top ministers on the Supreme Court here. So this was something that they said started in 2022 or even as early as 2021, and built up through 2022 when the election loss occurred, and then ultimately almost culminated in the assassination of Bolsonaro's top rivals.

[Elahe Izadi]

And so what are the exact charges, Marina, that he's facing?

[Marina Diaz]

He's already banned from running for office until 2030 because the electoral court ruled he attacked the Brazilian system with no evidence. So now this criminal charges that Terry was talking about is like he was the leader of this criminal organization.

[Elahe Izadi]

These are the allegations?

[Marina Diaz]

Yes, he was the leader of this group who tried to stay in power. And for that he tried a coup, a military coup, and. And didn't happen, and also tried our planet to assassinate his rivals.

[Elahe Izadi]

And so if he's convicted, what could be the outcome? He already is banned from murder, running for office until 2030. What is the worst case scenario for him?

[Marina Diaz]

Jail for 30 years.

[Elahe Izadi]

Wow. So, Terry, Marina, you're sitting here, you're sipping coffee with Jair Bolsonaro, former president of Brazil, and he's talking about, look at this book that Donald Trump gave me. And he wrote this really nice note for me, and, oh, I didn't have anything to do with January 8th. But then the topic of this upcoming trial comes up because you're talking about what's next, Terry, what did he have to say about the trial?

[Terry McCoy]

So he was talking about this case against him, and his reaction was, it's all, you know, it's all baloney. He says that it's completely absurd to say that he had plotted to assassinate Lula because then one of the allegations is that he was going to poison Lula. And he says just on its face, it's absurd that someone would even make that allegation. He said, some crazy guys who want put some crazy things down on a piece of paper. I had nothing to do with it. And that's Bolsonaro's story. Whether that works in court, I Don't know. But that's Bolsonaro's story. But he really took hard line against that investigation. It was all just a little narrative is what he called it. He didn't get into the whole did he lose or win the election? He didn't really get. He didn't really debate that, but he really took a hard line on the prosecution's case against.

[Elahe Izadi]

And so then I'm wondering, as you were talking to him this spring, how did Donald Trump come up in this context? How did Bolsonaro talk about Trump's situation versus his?

[Terry McCoy]

For sure, And I asked him that. I said, you know, look, why, like, why is it that Bolsonaro is facing prison and Donald Trump is back in the White House? And what is it between these two countries that created this dichotomy, created this difference, this chasm between these two democracies? And Bolsonaro just went. He went on about the similarities between them, about how they were both victims of these political prosecutions, what he called lawfare, and both victims of the same sort of overzealous prosecutions. And he thought that. That he had a narrow path to replicate what Trump had done before. It's a much more difficult path to diverse than Trump had, because Bolsonaro is technically disqualified from being able to run for office again. And there is a law in Brazil saying if you're a convict, if you're convicted of a crime like this, you can't hold public office. So there are several mechanisms which contrast.

[Elahe Izadi]

With the United States, which. There is no such law.

[Terry McCoy]

Yes, yes. So there are a lot of things here that complicate his path in a way that didn't for Trump.

[Elahe Izadi]

Right. And it also makes me wonder, we're talking about all these parallels between Trump and Bolsonaro, but is it an even parallel?

[Terry McCoy]

I think there are parallels, but there are also key distinctions between the cases against both of these men and also who they are. For Bolsonaro, he has been accused of significantly more egregious things, signing off on an assassination of his opponents. And there is evidence and there are allegations against Bolsonaro that Trump never dealt with. And so that is also another explanation of why these cases have possibly gone different directions. But he thinks Bolsonaro. That he still retains a large base of support, which is very true, and that he thinks that if he can galvanize that support in the streets, it will create enough political pressure that the authorities will have no choice but to say, to deny this guy a chance to run is a denial of Brazilian democracy that's what he's really looking to, for Trump again, to do is to set that, to set the path, to show a way through it all. And he's really looking to Trump, it seems, right now, as a model again, as another way back to power.

[Marina Diaz]

There was this moment when Bolsonaro was talking about Trump that he says, he, Trump, he knows what I am feeling here, but I'm not the one who will give him a suggestion. And he says, I know he's much more powerful than me, and I was talking about him every time. So if it was the other way around, but he knows what he needs to do. I'm not giving him an advice, however.

[Elahe Izadi]

I wouldn't hate him to say something about me. So did Bolsonaro say at that time what was next for him? Did he have any other plan?

[Marina Diaz]

Terry asks him, like, do you see a way out? And he said, which is like, yes, I do. And then he says, I have God in my heart. I was saved. And then he mentioned Trump. Trump got shot in his ear. He could have died. And then he goes, I was stabbed, and it affect my main heart pathway. There are times when it seems like the world is ending for me. And then a solution appears. He remembers when he was stabbed in his belly in 2018 during the presidential campaign. And he didn't die. He almost died, but he didn't die. And then he won the election.

[Terry McCoy]

He lost 40% of his blood during that stabbing. It really, even today, he was recently hospitalized for weeks dealing with still the aftershocks of that assassination attempt, but. But nonetheless, it kindled something in his political appeal, and he really stoked that narrative of the Resurrection. His middle name is Messias.

[Elahe Izadi]

Messias, meaning Messiah.

[Terry McCoy]

Yeah, meaning Messiah, exactly. His middle name is Messias means Messiah. And he really stokes that sort of religious narrative, that religious sort of imagery of resurrection. So he's nearly killed and he comes back and wins the presidency. And I still see that today in him, where he's still trying to create that same sort of mythology around his political identity.

[Marina Diaz]

Bolsonaro thinks something extraordinary or a miracle can save him. When I was interviewing his allies, his closest friends, et cetera, this came in. Yes. Like, everybody was like, he is waiting for, like, God. He's waiting for divine something that could save him. And I mean, he is not evangelical, but he's.

[Elahe Izadi]

What is he?

[Marina Diaz]

Catholic. But he's baptized. Base is very, very evangelic. So he has this kind of idea of something can save him, might be God. Like, God pointed to him and said, go ahead you will save this nation.

[Elahe Izadi]

So how did your conversation with him end?

[Terry McCoy]

Yeah, I mean, so the conversation was, as I'd say here, and meaning that it just became more. Relax. And we were just kind of hanging out, and we go back to his office, and then I was like, so tell me about all this stuff on your walls. And he's just showing me he has all this, like, crusader memorabilia in his office. Like, somehow he got a big sword in there. He had a big sword, Like a big medieval sword. And he's like, oh, people just buy this stuff and send it to me. And then he started asking about me, and I told him, you know, I've been in Brazil for six years. My son was born in Brazil. And he heard that, you know, I had a boy, and Bolsonaro's, you know, a pretty maciste type figure. And his reaction was like, oh, okay, this is great. Here's a gift. It's only for men, though. Only for boys. And so a backstory before we get to what it was. A major thing, a major campaign slogan that he had here was something called imbroxavio. And Unbroxavio is a pretty. It's kind of.

[Elahe Izadi]

It's pretty Green is already laughing.

[Terry McCoy]

It's a pretty vulgar. It's a pretty vulgar. It's a pretty vulgar Brazilian word. And it kind of means, you know, in the most politically correct way, it means. It means sexual virility. He's someone who never. He's someone who never needs Viagra, pretty much.

[Elahe Izadi]

And that was his slogan.

[Terry McCoy]

And that was his slogan going down to the last moment. He was leading chants before thousands of people. Everyone's screaming. So that was his campaign slogan. And he's like. He found out that I have a son. My son's three years old, two and a half. And he gives my son a coin, and on the coin it says imbroshafiu. And he's like, this is only for men, though. And I was like, and that's pretty much all the coin.

[Elahe Izadi]

Marina didn't get one.

[Marina Diaz]

He gave one for my husband, actually, because he said that. He said, yeah, this is only for men. Do you have a husband? Is he inbroshave? So you can get one, too, if he is in bruschave.

[Elahe Izadi]

Wow, wow, wow.

[Terry McCoy]

Yeah. I mean, I was just surprised. But the more I looked at it, the more I thought about what this all meant. It struck me as just a reason and a symbol of. For a lot of people, what his political appeal has been. I mean, he's not a guy. He doesn't come from a league background by any means. He isn't an intellectual. He is an instinctual, tactile politician. He says vulgar things because people say vulgar things. And this coin that he gave me just made me realize that this is just. That's just Bolsonaro. That's the reason why he's Bolsonaro is stuff like this.

[Elahe Izadi]

What did you guys do with the coins? I have to ask.

[Terry McCoy]

We had to return them. We returned them. We returned them back to him.

[Elahe Izadi]

Can't accept gifts. That's right.

[Terry McCoy]

That's right. That's right. Can't accept gifts.

[Elahe Izadi]

You know, listening to you both describe not just the situation in Brazil, but Bolsonaro, where he's standing right now, he's on the eve of this trial. It sounds like it's. I mean, he can't run again. And unless something happens, in his words, a miracle that he avoids jail. And then I think about this as almost a case study. When I think of globally, we see populism and authoritarianism is on the rise all around the world. And here you have a case of a major political figure actually facing potentially pretty serious consequences for their actions of trying to seize power or, you know, stay in power. So I'm wondering, as you look at that, is this like a one off case, a unique situation, or is this, what's happening in Brazil, potentially a sign of things to come?

[Marina Diaz]

I mean, this is different in Brazil because of Brazilian laws. They are different, like Terry explained, like we have this specific laws that are different from the U.S. laws. Yeah. So I think it depends on the laws in each country. And it is a unique case in Brazil, but I hope the other countries can put responsibility on people who try something like that.

[Terry McCoy]

Yeah. I've been struck by Brazil's reaction, and I think Brazil is a bellwether country in a lot of different ways because of its size, its history, its global importance. And I think Brazil is a country that people are looking to right now as this world is tugged between these two massive forces, as you explain, Elahi, between authoritarianism and the defense of democracy. And so the question is, is that going to ultimately lead the country to a safer democracy? And what is the result of this sort of defense democracy ultimately going to be?

[Elahe Izadi]

Well, Marina and Terry, thank you both so much for talking with me and sharing your reporting. I really appreciate it.

[Marina Diaz]

Thank you so much.

[Terry McCoy]

Thanks for having us.

[Elahe Izadi]

Terry McCoy is the Post's Rio de Janeiro bureau chief. Marina Diaz is a reporter for the Post based in Brasilia. You can follow their coverage of possible tariffs levied by Trump on Brazil. On washingtonpost.com that's it for Post reports. Thanks for listening. Today's episode was produced by Alana Gordon with help from Sabi Robinson. It was edited by Peter Bresnan and Rena Flores. It was mixed by Shawn Carter. Thanks to Jesse Messner Hage. I'm Elahe Izadi. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

[Alana Gordon]

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