Is finding "flow" the key to happiness?

Summary

Post Reports – "Is finding 'flow' the key to happiness?"

Date: December 30, 2025
Host: Maggie Penman (from The Optimist)
Focus: Exploring the psychological concept of "flow" through the story of Old Ladies Against Underwater Garbage (OLOG): a group of women aged 65–85 who find joy and purpose in cleaning garbage from the bottom of ponds.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the concept of "flow"—the immersive psychological state where people are totally absorbed in an activity—and examines whether finding flow is a key to happiness. The story is told through the lens of OLOG, a spirited community of older women who find meaning (and fun) in their unusual, aquatic environmental efforts. Maggie Penman explores how their underwater garbage hunts bring a sense of fulfillment that transcends the act of picking up trash.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet OLOG: Old Ladies Against Underwater Garbage

• Setting & Atmosphere:
  The story opens (01:31) with Susan Bauer, 85, organizing a group of women at a pond on Cape Cod. The women, all 65–85, wear “OLOG” hats/shirts and prep for a trash-diving expedition.
• Origin Story:
  Susan first noticed pond trash as a swimmer. At first, the garbage helped her navigate the strange underwater world. Over time, she began collecting it, and invited friends—eventually, the activity became a community project (04:08–04:57).

"When I first started swimming in ponds, I was so afraid of snapping turtles... that I loved seeing the beer can, the cluster of golf balls ... because I knew exactly where I was." – Susan Bauer (04:08)

• Community Growth:
  OLOG started informally, but ballooned to 30 active divers and a waitlist of 45 (05:54–06:19). There are tryouts and planned, safe dives led by a “beach boss” and dive leaders.
• Rules & Safety:
  The women take safety seriously, with gear organization, check-ins, and careful group structure—in part inspired by a scary incident when a strong swimmer had a heart attack during a swim and was rescued thanks to procedures (07:40–08:16).

2. The Search for Meaning Underwater

• The Unexpected Joy of Garbage Diving:
  Finds are both mundane and bizarre: old beer bottles, anchor coils, a blue toilet, countless baby doll heads (08:57–09:19). The group shares laughs inventing stories for their finds.

"A lot of baby doll heads. Something about little girls. They lose their baby doll heads." – Susan Bauer (09:19)

• Impact on Community & Self:
  The activity cleans the ponds and brings the women together (10:05). But it also changes them.

3. The Psychology of Flow

• Exploring the Concept:
  Susan, a retired psychologist, poses the episode’s key question: why is this muddy, chilly work so delightful? (10:28)

"I'm a retired psychologist, and what has fascinated me... why does diving for trash in a pond make people so happy?" – Susan Bauer (10:28)

• Total Immersion:
  According to Susan, the answer is flow—a state where you’re so immersed there’s no room for worry, self-consciousness, or even thoughts of past and future (12:47–13:26).

"You are immersed in something so completely that you have no thought. ... As William James said, you break free from the cage of self and... get rid of yourself for a short period of time and you see the world in a new way." – Susan Bauer (12:47)

• Supporting Research:
  Host Maggie references Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the psychologist who defined “flow” and considered it key to happiness. Flow is associated with resilience, reduced anxiety, and greater well-being. (13:26–14:49)

4. How To Find Flow

• Expert Input (Richard Huskey, UC Davis):
  Richard outlines the key elements of finding flow (14:49–17:27):

  • Clear goals
  • Immediate feedback
  • Challenge-skill balance

  If something is too easy, it’s boring; too difficult, it’s stressful. Flow happens in that sweet spot.

"I am an expert dishwasher, but it’s a really low challenging task, right? That’s not a flow-eliciting experience. ... The task is too difficult, my skills are too low. That's also not a flow-eliciting task." – Richard Huskey (15:02–15:35)

• Practice Matters:
  Learning and practice are essential to finding flow, and the activity doesn't matter as much as the engagement and commitment.

"Find something that you’re either already good at or that you have a commitment to practicing that can help you build up the skills necessary to start finding flow." – Richard Huskey (16:18)

• Universality:
  Flow can be found anywhere: business, art, sports, music. The original research was inspired by interviews with composers who felt as if the music “was just flowing out of their hand.” (16:52–17:27)

5. Flow and Happiness

• Flow Is The Point:
  The story circles back to OLOG, illustrating that the search for—and experience of—flow is what keeps people coming back. Their pond dives provide joy, purpose, and relief from the everyday.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|--------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:08 | Susan Bauer | "When I first started swimming in ponds, I was so afraid of snapping turtles...that I loved seeing the beer can, the cluster of golf balls...because I knew exactly where I was." | | 05:14 | Susan Bauer | "One of them said, 'We're a bunch of old ladies against underwater garbage.' And it stuck...It has actually really set the tone. It's been a very good name because it surprises people." | | 09:19 | Susan Bauer | "A lot of baby doll heads. Something about little girls. They lose their baby doll heads." | | 10:28 | Susan Bauer | "I'm a retired psychologist, and what has fascinated me... why does diving for trash in a pond make people so happy?" | | 12:47 | Susan Bauer | "You are immersed in something so completely that you have no thought...As William James said, you break free from the cage of self...get rid of yourself for a short period of time..." | | 15:02 | Richard Huskey | "I am an expert dishwasher, but it’s a really low challenging task, right? That’s not a flow-eliciting experience..." | | 16:18 | Richard Huskey | "Practice matters, find something that you're either already good at or that you have a commitment to practicing at that can help you build up the skills necessary to start finding flow." | | 16:52 | Richard Huskey | "The cool thing about flow is there's no one thing that you have to do to achieve it..." |

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Important Timestamps

• 01:31 — Introduction to Susan Bauer and OLOG at the pond
• 04:08 — Susan describes how she started collecting trash
• 05:14 — Origin of the OLOG name
• 06:19 — OLOG’s growth and dive organization
• 07:40 — Importance of safety (health incident)
• 08:57 — Describing found trash and team camaraderie
• 10:28 — Susan frames the episode’s central question on happiness
• 12:47 — Susan explains “flow” referencing William James
• 13:26 — Maggie introduces psychological research on flow
• 14:49 — Richard Huskey discusses requirements for flow
• 16:18 — Practical advice on cultivating flow

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Tone & Language

The episode is cheerful, lively, and gently humorous, reflecting the optimistic focus of the host and the personalities of the women involved. There is scientific rigor but delivered in warm, relatable, and anecdotal terms.

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Summary Takeaways

• The concept of “flow” is vividly illustrated through the environmental work—and joy—of OLOG.
• Flow, found in any skillful, focused activity, offers deep happiness and psychological benefits.
• Anyone can cultivate flow by finding activities that are meaningful, challenging, and absorbing—and by practicing to increase skill and engagement.
• The search for flow, whether underwater or otherwise, is universal and accessible.

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Recommended for:
Listeners interested in positive psychology, community stories, aging with purpose, or anyone seeking new ways to find meaning and happiness in everyday activities.

Transcript

[Andy Staples]

Hi, I'm Andy Staples from Andy and Ariane three. And another five star quarterback just entered the transfer portal. That's what college football is now, a non stop adventure. And we cover it every day at Andy and Ariane 3, whether it's the transfer portal, the college football playoff, the coaching carousel, you name it. And guess what? It doesn't stop even when the season ends. So join us every day, Monday through Friday. New episodes drop at 3pm wherever you get your podcasts.

[Martine]

Hey there, it's Martine. I hope you're having a great holiday season today. I wanted to share an episode for my friend Maggie Penman. She's a reporter for the Optimist, which means she tells stories about inspiring people and things that are going right in the world. Earlier this year she did the story I loved about a possible secret to happiness. It called flow. Flow is this concept in psychology and it basically means getting in the zone. The people she talked to for this story find it in a very funny way, but there are all kinds of ways to find it. Cooking, knitting, doing yoga, playing a musical instrument. I personally feel flow when I'm taking tennis lessons, which I'm not very good. But that doesn't matter. I'm in flow. So whatever your thing is, I hope you're finding some time to do it this week and I hope you enjoy this episode.

[Susan Bauer]

We are really going to be zigzagging. It's a fairly shallow plateau. We can get three of us, you know, 10, 12ft apart.

[Maggie Penman]

Susan Bauer is holding court in a sandy parking lot across the street from a pond on Cape Cod.

[Susan Bauer]

The area's been cleaned up before, but we know that there is a construction site of crap and we have not found that yet. So that's what we're really after.

[Maggie Penman]

At 85 years old, she's tiny but strong. She's standing up straight and absolutely brimming over with energy. As she talks, she shifts her weight back and forth and gestures with her hands. A group of women are standing around her, listening intently, wearing bathing suits or wetsuits. Some of them have life vests on. There's an air of anticipation. And all of the women are between the ages of 65 and 85. They all have bright orange hats or T shirts on that say olog. It stands for Old Ladies Against Underwater Garbage.

[Susan Bauer]

So this is John's Pond in Mashpee, and we are going to an area where we have cleaned it up before, but we know that there's more stuff there.

[Maggie Penman]

I'm a reporter for the Optimist A section here at the Post where I write about the best of humanity, the things in the world that are going right. And today I'm bringing you to a cold, muddy pond in Massachusetts because we're going on a treasure hunt. This is not just a story about environmentalism or community or picking up trash. It's about why this activity, or something like it, is also so good for your brain. Because as Susan explained to me, these women reach a mental state psychologists call flow while they're picking up trash. This is the state of concentration you get in when you're fully immersed in a task. You're just totally present. And we'll talk about why finding flow might just be the key to happiness. Susan Bauer started Olog sort of by accident. She was retired, and she had begun swimming in the ponds near her home. And she just started noticing the trash. At first, it was almost comforting.

[Susan Bauer]

When I first started swimming in ponds, I was so afraid of snapping turtles, so totally turned off by the slimy tendrils of water lilies and the mud, the consistency of yogurt that came up through my toes, that I loved seeing. The beer can, the cluster of golf balls, and, oh, thank God, an Adirondack chair, because. Because I knew exactly where I was.

[Maggie Penman]

Basically, she was using the trash as landmarks to navigate this foreign underwater world.

[Susan Bauer]

But as the years went by, I didn't need the garbage as much. And that's really the tipping point where I don't need a cell phone, I don't need the bottom of a bikini and six dog toys.

[Maggie Penman]

So she started to pick this stuff up all the trash she could find underwater. At first, she did it alone, and then she made friends come with her. About seven years ago, she and a couple friends were out in the water diving for garbage, and one of them.

[Susan Bauer]

Said, we're a bunch of old ladies against underwater garbage. And it stuck. We have had comments. You should never call yourself old. You should call yourself the Glitter Litter mermaid and, you know, like, no way. And it has actually really set the tone. It's been a very good name because it surprises people and it's funny. And we are. We are old, and we are against underwater garbage, and we do something about it.

[Maggie Penman]

Since those early days, OLOG has gotten a lot bigger and more serious about their task, though not more serious about themselves.

[Susan Bauer]

Then in 2023, we had tryouts, and we went from a group of five to a group of 21 overnight. And it was like, oh, what do we do with these? We've got to have dives that are predicted. Dives that have a calendar date and a time and a place. And we have to scout every pond that we clean up because you don't know whether it's a safe pond, whether it's got enough garbage.

[Maggie Penman]

Now they have a group of 30 women who regularly go on dives and another 45 women on the wait list. Each dive is organized. There's a quote unquote beach boss. What does a beach boss do?

[Susan Bauer]

I boss everybody around, organize them, tell them when they can go into the water. They can't come out of the water until I check you out. You just lost.

[Maggie Penman]

You just boss, that's Mary Alice Moynihan. She's today's beach boss. She organized all the gear, charged up the walkie talkies. She checked swimmers in and out of the water to make sure everyone is safe and accounted for. Then there's the dive leader today, it's Sarah Spangler.

[Susan Bauer]

So the pontoon boat is over there. That's where everybody's gonna start off. The direction that we're swimming is over to the right.

[Maggie Penman]

There's two kayakers and five swimmers.

[Susan Bauer]

But remember that the kayakers are keeping your eye on the swimmers and the swimmers are kind of once in a while keeping an eye on each other. So.

[Maggie Penman]

And the kayakers hold on to all the garbage they find. This all might seem like kind of a lot, but the rules exist for a reason. Earlier this summer, the divers were doing a safety training and practice swimming.

[Susan Bauer]

So everybody took off and we're swimming away, you know, as fast as we can and rip around this three quarter of a mile course. And what happened was that one of our absolute top three swimmers, triathlete, felt it was very difficult to breathe.

[Maggie Penman]

At first she thought it was just her mask, but the kayaker who was with her was worried it was something more. So she helped the swimmer get to shore.

[Susan Bauer]

She took herself to the ER and within 15 minutes they said, yeah, you are having a heart attack right now.

[Maggie Penman]

On this particular day, the self proclaimed old ladies are going out on a pontoon boat. When they get to the part of the pond where they're looking for trash, they'll get out and swim or kayak. The boat driver is Mike Kanata. He's lived on this pond his whole life. So did you have any idea how much trash was in your pond?

[Susan Bauer]

No. Although I'm probably guilty in my teens of placing some of it.

[Maggie Penman]

Well, you're sort of correcting the karmic balance by helping now.

[Susan Bauer]

Yeah, exactly. Trying to set my place in heaven. All right, hold on to your hat, ladies. We're gonna cover some ground, all right?

[Maggie Penman]

Not all of the trash they find is recent. Sometimes they find things that have been hidden in the mud for decades. Beer bottles dropped after ice fishing expeditions, part of an old car once, a blue toilet that had become home to an eel. And baby doll heads. So many baby doll heads.

[Susan Bauer]

A lot of baby doll heads. Something about little girls. They lose their baby doll heads.

[Maggie Penman]

Today. There is a lot of bulky trash, a long coil from a makeshift anchor, pieces of wood that probably came from that construction site, one single woman's sandal, an old private property sign in a vintage font. Part of the fun, they tell me, is making up backstories for all of the stuff they find.

[Susan Bauer]

It's an amazing thing to think about. Where did this garbage come from and how did it get in the pond and get there? You know, dog leashes and where did the dog go? It's an entire leash, but there's no.

[Maggie Penman]

After about an hour of hunting, the women climb back onto the boat, soaking wet and totally exhilarated. They pour some tea, huddle in towels, talk about the stuff they found and what it could mean. These women have obviously done so much for their community, but after the break, we'll talk about what cleaning up the trash has done for them.

[Susan Bauer]

I'm a retired psychologist, and what has fascinated me why does diving for trash in a pond make people so happy?

[Maggie Penman]

We'll be right back.

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[Andy Staples]

Hi, I'm Andy Staples from Andy and Ariane three, and another five star quarterback just entered the transfer portal. That's what college football is now, a non stop adventure. And we cover it every day at Andy and Ariane 3, whether it's the transfer portal, the college football playoff, the coaching carousel, you name it. And guess what? It doesn't stop even when the season ends. So join us every day, Monday through Friday. New episodes drop at 3pm wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Penman]

You've probably figured this out by now, but Susan Bauer is not your typical 85 year old retiree. Like, for example, she will randomly quote the American philosopher William James in a casual conversation. When I asked her why diving for trash in a cold, muddy pond is so delightful that she has dozens of women over 65 on a wait list just hoping for the chance to do it, this is what she said.

[Susan Bauer]

I think the answer is closest to the concept of flow. That's actually a technical term that means that you are immersed in a task. It could be rock climbing, it could be doing art. You are immersed in something so completely that you have no thought. You have no thought for your past, you have no thought for your future. You have no thought for your aches and pains. You have, as William James said, you break free from the cage of self and the relief, the happiness to get rid of yourself for a short period of time and you see the world in a new way.

[Maggie Penman]

I hear some version of this from all the women who participate. They don't all quote William James, but they all talk about the feeling of being underwater and feeling free. They're not thinking about what they're cooking for dinner. They're not worrying about their creaky joints or their grandkids. And I wanted to understand this a little bit better. So when I was back on dry land, I did a little bit of research. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the researcher who coined the term flow, believed it to be the key to happiness. He studied musicians and artists and heard from them that when they were doing their work, they totally lost themselves in it. It was like the art was just flowing effortlessly out of them. So much of our lives are spent worrying about the past or the future or feeling self conscious or anxious. And lots of research has shown that flow basically lets our brains take a break from that. And regularly experiencing flow can protect us from anxiety and depression and can make us more resilient. Okay, so flow is good for you. It's Fulfilling, and it can help with your mental health. So how do we find it? Richard Huskey is a professor at UC Davis, and he's been thinking about this exact question.

[Richard Huskey]

Essentially, when we're talking about flow, people describe it commonly as being in the zone.

[Maggie Penman]

You can technically reach a state of flow doing anything. But there are a few requirements.

[Richard Huskey]

One of them is the thing that you're doing should have really clear goals. Another should have really immediate feedback. So you're getting constant reminders of how well you're doing at meeting those goals. And then it should require both a balance between the challenge of the task and your ability at the task. So those two things need to be really high, right? Like, I am an expert dishwasher, but it's a really low, challenging task. Task, right? That's not a flow eliciting experience. I'm not an ultra marathoner. The task is too difficult. My skills are too low. That's also not a flow eliciting task.

[Maggie Penman]

Just a caveat here. I have not reached out to Richard's wife for comment on how good he is at dishwashing.

[Richard Huskey]

You know, I mean, my wife and I would argue about how is best to load the dishwasher. I mean, obviously my approach is best.

[Maggie Penman]

Anyway. Richard's point here is it can't be something too hard. You'll just be struggling and frustrated. But it also can't be too easy because your mind will wander. It has to be the right balance. But flow is something you can cultivate. When Richard was younger, he was an avid snowboarder, and he found Flo gliding down a mountain. But then he got hurt, which led him to finding Flo another way.

[Richard Huskey]

I never found flow in yoga, and then I had to have knee surgery and I started up a yoga practice because I was trying to help rehab my knee. And then finally something clicked, right? So I say that because practice matters, find something that you're either already good at or that you have a commitment to practicing at that can help you build up the skills necessarily to start finding flow.

[Maggie Penman]

So if you're interested in finding flow, Richard's advice is find something you like doing and want to do more of and then practice.

[Richard Huskey]

The cool thing about flow is there's no one thing that you have to do to achieve it. If you look at the research on flow, you see it covers business, people at work trying to close deals, mountain climbers, extreme sports enthusiasts, musicians, painters. The earliest work on flow actually came out of these qualitative interviews with music composers. Csikszentmihalyi who developed the idea, would hear them describe it as if the music was just flowing out of their hand.

[Maggie Penman]

For the old ladies against underwater garbage, that thing is diving for buried treasure, even if that treasure is a bunch of beer cans and baby doll heads. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by me and edited by Ted Muldoon, who also makes the show. Thank you to my editor, Alison Klein. If you love hearing stories from the Optimist, please let us know. You can leave us a review or send an email to podcastsashpost.com and you'll be hearing more of these stories from me and my Optimist colleagues on the weekend. Our team includes Rena Flores, Alana Gordon, Ariel Plotnick, Rennie Svirnovski, Sabi Robinson, Emma Talkoff, Shawn Carter, Peter Bresnan, Thomas Liu, Laura Benshoff, Colby Ikwitz, Alahia Zadi and Renita Jablonski. Our intern is Zoe Cummings. I'm Maggie Penman. Have a great weekend.

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[Andy Staples]

Hi, I'm Andy Staples from Andy and Ariane three, and another five star quarterback just entered the transfer portal. That's what college football is now, a non stop adventure. And we cover it every day at Andy and Ariane 3. Whether it's the transfer portal, the college football playoff, the coaching carousel, you name it. And guess what? It doesn't stop even when the season ends. So join us every day, Monday through Friday. New episodes drop at 3pm wherever you get your podcasts.