‘Pride isn't just a party. It's a protest.’

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Post Reports – ‘Pride isn't just a party. It's a protest.’"

Release Date: June 3, 2025
Host: Colby Ikowicz
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi
Published by: The Washington Post

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1. Introduction: Pride in a Challenging Era

The episode opens with Marissa Lang recounting her attendance at a commemorative event for Frank Kameny, a trailblazing gay rights pioneer, held at the Supreme Court. Despite the gloomy weather, about a hundred attendees gathered to honor what would have been Kameny's 100th birthday. Among the crowd was Jim Obergefell, the plaintiff from the landmark marriage equality case, Obergefell v. Hodges.

2. Interview with Jim Obergefell: Concerns Over the Future of Marriage Equality

Jim Obergefell shares his apprehensions about the stability of marriage equality in the United States. Speaking at [01:59], he expresses:

“I am worried about the future of Obergefell v. Hodges. I'm also concerned about all of the attacks across the country, state legislatures that have passed resolutions asking the court to overturn marriage equality. So, yes, it's a scary time for queer couples across the country and their right to say I do to the person they love in the state they call home.”

Obergefell highlights the resurgence of anti-LGBTQ legislation, noting over 500 anti-LGBTQ bills introduced in the past two years. He emphasizes the psychological impact on queer youth, stating:

“I'm worried about what that tells queer kids about their future, about their rights, about their ability to live a life that they want.”

3. Historical Perspectives: The Pioneers of LGBTQ Rights in D.C.

Marissa Lang delves into the rich history of LGBTQ activism in Washington, D.C., interviewing pivotal figures from earlier decades.

Paul Kunstler ([08:52]), an 82-year-old member of the Mattachine Society, recounts his early activism:

“On Tuesday, March 6, 1962, I became the 17th member of the Mattachine Society. I was only 20 then and was involved in a tiny gay rights movement consisting of 150 people in five American cities.”

Paul describes the first protest by the Mattachine Society at the White House in 1965, where mere ten individuals bravely stood against pervasive discrimination:

“We crossed Pennsylvania Avenue and then walked down... I was so unnerved by the whole experience. I kept hiding my face.”

Eva Freund ([12:17]), an 87-year-old Navy veteran and one of the earliest female members of the Mattachine Society, shares her experiences:

“I never saw myself as an activist. I saw myself as the curmudgeon.”

Despite her modest self-view, Eva was instrumental in organizing the first Pride event in D.C. in 1975. She reflects on the transformative power of these gatherings:

“It was overwhelming... It made me realize how many people are involved in this process, have been involved in this process...”

4. Evolution and Growth of D.C. Pride

The discussion transitions to the expansion of Pride events in Washington, D.C. Marissa explains that what began as a modest gathering in 1975 quickly evolved into massive marches by the late 1970s, exemplified by the first National March on Washington for Gay and Lesbian Rights in 1979, which attracted an estimated 100,000 participants.

Eva Freund reminisces about the early Pride events, emphasizing their role in empowering individuals:

“All of these people would go home with a bigger sense of self...”

5. Voices of the Younger Generation: Navigating Modern Challenges

Shifting focus to the present, Marissa interviews younger LGBTQ activists who express a blend of fear and hope in the current socio-political climate.

Mia Perelli ([25:57]), a 20-year-old college student from Pennsylvania, articulates the anxiety felt by her generation:

“It's really scary... we might not have those rights that we've just had for the majority of our lives.”

Despite these fears, Mia finds solace and strength in the legacy of past activists:

“It made me realize how many people are involved in this process... It felt so beautiful to hear them talk about those things.”

Tatiana Gonzalez ([27:12]), a 22-year-old non-binary lesbian from New Jersey, echoes a sentiment of resilience:

“We've been here before, we've done it once, we can do it again...”

6. Reflections and Conclusions: Learning from the Past, Shaping the Future

Marissa reflects on the cyclical nature of history and the importance of drawing lessons from past struggles. She emphasizes that Pride serves not only as a celebration but also as a reminder of ongoing resistance and activism.

In closing, the episode underscores the dual essence of Pride—joyous celebration intertwined with determined protest. The narratives of both seasoned activists and young leaders highlight a community that honors its history while fervently advocating for its future.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jim Obergefell ([01:59]):

  “I am worried about the future of Obergefell v. Hodges... it's a scary time for queer couples...”

• Paul Kunstler ([10:24]):

  “I made this poster because I was trying to estimate the number of gay people in the United States at the time...”

• Eva Freund ([12:17]):

  “I never saw myself as an activist. I saw myself as the curmudgeon.”

• Jose Gutierrez ([20:19]):

  “My best friends, they were dying. I can say like every month in my agenda in my notebook, I was crushing the names...”

• Mia Perelli ([25:57]):

  “It's really scary... we might not have those rights that we've just had for the majority of our lives.”

• Tatiana Gonzalez ([27:12]):

  “We've been here before, we've done it once, we can do it again...”

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, historical insights, and contemporary concerns highlighted in the episode, providing listeners a thorough overview of "Pride isn't just a party. It's a protest."

Transcript

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[Marissa Lang]

So a couple of weeks ago, I went over to the Supreme Court for the centennial birthday of a gay rights pioneer, Frank Kameny.

[Colby Ikowicz]

This is Mersa Lang. She is a reporter for the Post who covers the D.C. region.

[Marissa Lang]

It was gray and rainy and cold, but there were still like 100 people on the front steps of the high court to commemorate what would have been Kameny's 100th birthday. Kameny was the first openly gay person to seek a congressional seat in in the history of the United States. And standing there was a gentleman who I recognized. He was wearing glasses and a rainbow bow tie and getting ready to join the march around the front steps of the court. Hello. Hi. Marissa Lang from the Washington Post. Hi, Marissa. Hi. We were wondering if we could steal a few minutes of your time today. How are you? I recognized him because he's been in the news before.

[Jim Obergefell]

I'm Jim Obergefell, the named plaintiff from Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court marriage equality case.

[Marissa Lang]

Ten years ago, Jim Obergefell and his husband took a lawsuit all the way to the Supreme Court to fight for same sex marriages like theirs to be recognized in all 50 states. It was the culmination of a long fight through the courts for gay couples around the country, and they won. For Jim, that was a huge moment of celebration and relief that protection for gay marriage had been enshrined in law. But today, he's feeling a little uncertain about the future.

[Jim Obergefell]

I am worried about the future of Obergefell v. Hodges. I'm also concerned about all of the attacks across the country, state legislatures that have passed resolutions asking the court to overturn marriage equality. So, yes, it's a scary time for queer couples across the country and their right to say I do to the person they love in the state they call home. I'm worried about what that tells queer kids about their future, about their rights, about their ability to live a life that they want.

[Colby Ikowicz]

June is Pride Month, and it's kicking off across the country right now. And here in D.C. it's also world Pride, a festival celebrating global LGBTQ communities that takes place in a different city every year. But for some LGBTQ people in this country, this feels like a scary time. Pride this year is taking place in the shadow of mounting legal and cultural attacks, a rise in hate crimes, a government that has banned transgender people from the military and girls sports, slashed HIV prevention programs, and gender affirming health care. State legislatures have introduced more than 500 anti LGBTQ bills over the past two years.

[Jim Obergefell]

Pride this year is bittersweet. You know, I think back to Pride in 2015 and how joyous those celebrations were across the country. We're not feeling that this year because of the attacks we see on our community, especially the trans community. And I understand being afraid. What gives me strength and hope is knowing that I'm one of countless people out there who are fighting for equality, who are fighting for this community and for all marginalized communities. And we stand on the shoulders of many people who helped create a better world for us.

[Marissa Lang]

What Jim said really stuck with me, in part because I've been hearing it from a lot of LGBTQ people who have been saying this year that they're finding inspiration not by imagining a brighter future, but instead by revisiting a more hostile past. This year, I wanted to go back and look at some of the protests and the trailblazers who led the way to the Pride that we know today. The people who organize protest, the pioneers who fought for LGBTQ rights. I've been out all over the D.C. region talking to some of those people, people who formed secret societies in the 60s, who marched in the 70s, who read the names of AIDS victims in the 80s and 90s, or staged kiss ins and mass weddings in the aughts before same sex marriage was legalized. And I wanted to know, at a time when many queer communities feel under attack socially and politically and legally, what can we learn from those times? And how are those pioneers thinking about Pride this year?

[Jim Obergefell]

I think everyone should look at Pride differently this year and honestly go back to how Pride began. It began as a riot. And I'm not asking people to riot, but I'm asking people to remember the motivation for what brought about Pride and to understand that pride isn't just a party. It's a protest.

[Colby Ikowicz]

From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Colby ekowitz. It's Tuesday, June 3rd. Today, a partial history of pride and protests in D.C. from some of the people who lived it firsthand. Hi, Marissa. Thanks so much for coming.

[Marissa Lang]

So happy to be here.

[Colby Ikowicz]

So, first, before we go to the past, let's start in the present. What was the vision for Pride for World Pride in DC this year?

[Marissa Lang]

So every year, DC throws a big celebration for Pride. There's a parade, just like you see in many other cities. But this year was special. This year is the 50th anniversary for what many consider to be the very first Pride acknowledgement in which happened in 1975. And it's also, as you mentioned, World Pride, which is the biggest international acknowledgment of Pride. It travels to different cities every year, and this year, it's in the nation's capital. D.C. was selected to be the host city way back in 2023. It's the capital of one of the biggest countries in the world. It's also, as Mayor Muriel Bowser mentioned this week, one of the gayest cities in America.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And yet a lot has changed in this country and here in D.C. specifically since 2023. How has that affected if it has plans for D.C. holding world pride?

[Marissa Lang]

It's changed a lot. A lot of national sponsors, corporations, have pulled their support for Pride, pulled out of the parade.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Really?

[Marissa Lang]

Yeah. A lot of corporations have responded to the Trump administration's directive to roll back diversity efforts by effectively doing the same thing, businesses. And that's really undercut a lot of Pride efforts this year. It's also meant that a lot of LGBTQ people feel more fearful. It's less of a let's party in the street vibe and more of a are we going to have rights tomorrow? There's been other countries that have issued travel warnings for LGBTQ travelers, basically saying that the United States can be a hostile, dangerous place or that, you know, with more aggressive enforcement at border crossings, that they might be targeted or questioned. There's also organizations representing LGBTQ groups in Canada and Africa who have said they're boycotting the event and advising people not to go at all.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Marisa, can you tell us a little bit more about some of the people that you spoke to and what they've been sharing with you?

[Marissa Lang]

Sure. So I first decided to get in touch with some of the oldest surviving members of DC's first gay rights group called the Mattachine Society. They were a very early gay rights organization with chapters all across the US that really took aim at issues like gay and lesbians being fired from the federal government or homosexuality being defined by the American Psychiatrics association as a mental illness. They were fighting in the 50s and 60s, really, for just being allowed to to exist at a time when being gay was all but illegal. Most of the original members have passed away by now, but I spoke with a couple who are still around, including Paul Kunstler, who's 82.

[Paul Kunstler]

On Tuesday, March 6, 1962, I became the 17th member of the Mattachine Society. I was only 20 then and was then involved in and a tiny gay rights movement consisting of 150 people in five American cities.

[Marissa Lang]

When Paul came to the Post to talk with me, he was all dressed up in a suit and tie and he had these old buttons that he's been wearing for decades. One of them said gay is good, which is a slogan coined by Frank Kameny, the activist who ran for Congress. Back in the 60s, it was not uncommon for gay folks to be rounded up by police for gathering in bars or parks or any sort of social environment. Workers who were so much as suspected of homosexuality could be fired from their jobs or kicked out of their homes.

[Paul Kunstler]

We couldn't conceive of the idea back in the 60s there would be laws to protect us against discrimination, that there would be openly gay elected officials. The whole idea of marriage equality was something, was just something we couldn't conceive of.

[Marissa Lang]

Paul told me about the first protest he went to at the Mattachine Society, which was a picket outside the White House in 1965 and is widely considered the very first gay rights protest in the country. There was about 10 people there and Paul is the last surviving participant.

[Paul Kunstler]

I made this poster. 15 million US homosexuals protest federal Treatment.

[Marissa Lang]

Paul told me he made that poster because he was trying to estimate the number of gay people in the United States at the time. Most people felt There was about 10% of the population that was likely gay. But of course, most of them weren't out and were terribly afraid of declaring it publicly. But he felt it was important to put that on a sign to demonstrate that there are numbers here, that gay people exist and they're all over.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And Paul, he was out at that time in the early 60s.

[Marissa Lang]

Paul was out at the time.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And did he describe at all what that was like for him?

[Marissa Lang]

Yeah, he said that being at this protest, he said, unnerved him.

[Paul Kunstler]

We crossed Pennsylvania Avenue and then walked down Pennsylvania Avenue until we got in front of the White House. I looked across the street and There was about 30 photographers waiting across the street and they started photographing. And I was so unnerved by the whole experience. You know, I kept hiding my face.

[Marissa Lang]

He, I think, hadn't really considered up until that moment what it would be to be out in the street publicly declaring his sexuality. But after that, Paul became sort of a lifelong protester. He's been incredibly involved in the gay rights movement and in many progressive movements since then.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And you said there were some other survivors from this early society. Did you speak with any others?

[Marissa Lang]

I did. I spoke to Eva Freund. She's one of the earliest female members of the Mattachine Society. When the society was first founded, it was almost all men. There was just a very small handful of women. And Eva was one of them who joined.

[Eva Freund]

So let's go in.

[Marissa Lang]

Yeah, let's go in. Eva lives at a retirement community in Virginia with her wife. She is this tiny, under five foot, firecracker of a lady. She's 87 years old and she used to serve in the US Navy. And she talks like it. She is sort of a no nonsense kind of lady. She's well known in her community. Even as we were walking through the halls with her, she kept getting stopped by people. You can tell that she's just sort of like a little celebrity wherever she goes.

[Eva Freund]

I never saw myself as an activist. I saw myself as the curmudgeon.

[Paul Kunstler]

The.

[Eva Freund]

Person who goes.

[Marissa Lang]

So as she's making that noise, she's also making this motion with her hand, like churning a wheel or cranking a really sticky dial. I took it to mean that she's someone who just relentlessly keeps pushing, that she'll not really give up until she's figured out or fixed whatever she's after. And even though she says she's not really an activist, Eva has been involved with a lot of big moments in the gay rights movement in DC, including the first ever Pride event 50 years ago.

[Eva Freund]

I remember it was the year of the first gay march here in Washington.

[Marissa Lang]

In June 1975, organizers of what is considered the first pride event in D.C. closed a block in Dupont Circle outside this gay bookstore to have an event. It was way smaller than what you think of as D.C. pride events today. It was some booths and some music, but a couple thousand people showed up. And then by the late 70s, in 1979, there was the first National March on Washington for Gay and Lesbian Rights, which people estimate had 100,000 people come. So in just a few years, the movement and the participation really, really grew.

[Eva Freund]

It was overwhelming to me. The bands all came in from different states and different cities, I guess. I love marching bands. And all of these people would go home and I knew it, they'd all go home with a bigger sense of Self, a more complete sense of self. And they would begin in their communities to go because not all of them will run for City hall, not all of them will run for the school board, but all of them can go.

[Marissa Lang]

For Eva, that part of pride, people becoming empowered and feeling like they could go back to their communities to be curmudgeons like her was really important. She was saying that even if you don't aspire to being in political office or having power in the traditional sense, you can still make changes by just being a pain.

[Colby Ikowicz]

It's incredible, Marisa, to think about the amount of change that Eva and Paul have seen in their lifetimes. The things like Paul was saying that he couldn't have imagined being true when he first was marching that are true today, like anti discrimination laws and same sex marriage is legal in this country. How are they thinking about pride this year and this moment we're finding ourselves in?

[Marissa Lang]

I think the benefit of being in your 80s is that when you think of time, it seems really long.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Yeah.

[Marissa Lang]

And both of them told me that they're actually feeling pretty optimistic about the future, which honestly surprised me. I didn't necessarily think that was the response I would get, but they were reflecting on the amount of change and the speed at which it has happened and the ways that the they live in now is not at all a world that they could have ever imagined when they were in their 20s and 30s. Eva is married to her wife and never thought that that would be a reality for her. And so when they're looking to the future, while they acknowledge that this moment in time is scary and they understand the uncertainty, especially that young people are feeling, they kept reminding me that time is long and progress isn't linear, and they really believe that ultimately they will see the world, or maybe not live to see the world end up in a better place.

[Colby Ikowicz]

After the break, we'll hear from the next generation of this movement, people in their 20s who are trying to figure out where it goes from here. We'll also talk to Marissa about how DC Pride has expanded, how it grew in the 90s and 2000s, and what comes next. We'll be right back.

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[Colby Ikowicz]

SAMIRSA before the break, we were talking about the first D.C. pride event in 1975. Obviously Pride has become massive here in D.C. as you mentioned. So how did it get there? Where did things go from there after 1975?

[Marissa Lang]

So over the next couple decades, Pride events and gay liberation events in D.C. got bigger and bigger. I talked to someone who got involved in the movement in the late 80s and in D.C. in the early 90s. His name is Jose Gutierrez. He grew up in Mexico and moved to Atlanta in his 20s. It was a really scary time to be gay because a lot of gay people were dying of aids.

[Jose Gutierrez]

My best friends, they were dying. I can say like every month in my agenda in my notebook, I was crushing the names in the telephone numbers. There were difficult times.

[Marissa Lang]

Jose had gone to some meetings in Atlanta with the AIDS activist group Act up, and he wanted to do more. In 1993, he and a group of activists from Georgia were invited to attend the March on Washington for Lesbian, Gay and Bi Equal Rights and Liberation. He was a representative from his state in a march that included people from all 50 states and also several countries outside the U.S. it was his first time in Washington, and he said when he arrived, he could barely believe what he was seeing.

[Jose Gutierrez]

I remember that I took the Metro station to Dupont Circle. I never, ever see so many people in my life. The streets, they were full of people. The people from Actor, they were protesting on the streets. They were lying on the streets and protesting. They were protesting in the Capitol. That was a full energy. That was magic.

[Marissa Lang]

That was powerful.

[Jose Gutierrez]

That was powerful because there were rivers and rivers of people walking. I do remember that in that time, they asked me to read the names of the people who died from aids, because.

[Marissa Lang]

Big.

[Jose Gutierrez]

I'm sorry. They asked me to read the names of Latinas and Latinos that they died from aids.

[Marissa Lang]

That protest drew a million people. There was this huge memorial quilt for AIDS victims that was unfurled on the National Mall that ran for blocks and blocks, and it included panels from every state in the country and 28 other nations. Jose told me he had never seen anything like this and that being in that march and being among all of those LGBTQ folks really changed him.

[Jose Gutierrez]

You feel safe, like you're feeling, like, in familiar, like we call in Spanish. We're in familiar. I feel more, like, empowered, more with family, more working for our rights, with more energy, with more ideas, with more plans to organize and to help people.

[Marissa Lang]

Jose decided to move to D.C. then and there. He came for Pride and never left. He was inspired to continue working to support people who were HIV positive, immigrants and Latinos in the LGBTQ community. And in his time in the District, he's done a lot to advocate for better health care, making sure that information about HIV AIDS is available in English and Spanish, and also working to create distinct, safe spaces for LGBTQ folks who are Latinos or who are immigrants and who live in the district. In 2000, he founded the Latino GLBT History Project, which strives to preserve queer history, but through a very distinctly Latino lens. And seven years later, he organized the first DC Latino Pride. DC Latinx Pride is still going strong, and it's part of World Pride this year. And Jose, who's no longer the director, is still really involved. In fact, he was named one of the co chairs of World Pride this year, which means he'll be coming in at the front of the parade.

[Colby Ikowicz]

So, Marissa, I mentioned before the break that you had spoken to a lot of younger people too. What did they tell you and how are they feeling about everything that's going on and about Pride this month?

[Marissa Lang]

So at the event that I mentioned earlier in the episode at the Supreme Court, where I met Jim Obergefell, who you heard at the very beginning of the episode, there were a lot of young folks and they were lined up holding these candles, standing vigil, as some of these older advocates marched in silence outside the court. And I approached a group of them. How are you feeling as young queer folks in this country? Can you just tell me how? Like, what's the feeling that you're carrying with you? Literally rage. That's mia Perelli. She's 20 years old, a college student from Pennsylvania, and she was holding the hand of her girlfriend, Elspeth Hunter, also. And they told me that they remember, but just barely, when gay marriage was legalized in the country. They were kids and they grew up in a world where same sex couples being able to get married was just a fact. And as they came into their own and started to realize their own identity and their own sexuality, it was something that they really didn't feel like they would have to worry about or question until now. To see that, you know, just as.

[Mia Perelli]

I'm coming, as we all are coming into the age where we actually might be able to realize those rights and to be looking towards the future and thinking about employment and marriage and all of those things, to realize that with the way things are headed politically, there's a very real shot that we won't have those rights that we've just kind.

[Marissa Lang]

Of had for the majority of the.

[Mia Perelli]

Of our lives is like, so scary.

[Marissa Lang]

But they also said they were feeling a lot of hope in part from seeing these older folks in the community and hearing their stories about the struggles that they've been through and the ways that they persevered in dangerous and scary times before.

[Mia Perelli]

It made me realize how many people are involved in this process, have been involved in this process, how we're sort of taking on that mantle as well and the work that we need to do to make sure that this progress is not undone. And for the first time I sat here and I'm like, wow, these are really the people that helped make this happen. These are really the people who fought for us to have these rights. And it felt so beautiful to hear them talk about those things.

[Marissa Lang]

This is Tatiana Gonzalez. They're a 22 year old non binary lesbian from New Jersey.

[Mia Perelli]

I think the solace is found in knowing that we've been here before, we've done it once, we can do it again. And I don't, I don't think we are going to let it go back to the place that it was because there are so many of us fighting now. I think that because of those trailblazers, there are so many of us who are willing to step forward and talk about this in a way that many people might not have wanted to before.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Marissa having done all this reporting about the past and the present, I wonder what you're thinking about when you think about Pride this month.

[Marissa Lang]

I'm thinking about the ways in which history is really circular and that there are so many things that feel very present about the past and that I think we can learn a lot from some of these pioneers and the ways in which they manage to not just fight but also celebrate who they are and their identities as we head into this Pride Month. And I think that holding both is really important and really, really moving to witness.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Marissa, thank you so much for bringing us these stories.

[Marissa Lang]

Thank you so much for listening to.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Marisa Lang covers D.C. for the Post. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by Emma Talkoff, who also contributed reporting. It was mixed by Sam Baer and edited by Maggie Penman. I'm Colby Ikowicz. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post. Foreign.

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