Tariffs are driving up clothing prices. Here’s how to shop smarter.

Summary

Post Reports: Tariffs are Driving Up Clothing Prices. Here’s How to Shop Smarter

Episode Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi
Episode Title: Tariffs are driving up clothing prices. Here’s how to shop smarter.
Podcast: Post Reports by The Washington Post

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1. Introduction and Fast Fashion Addiction

The episode begins with co-host Cole Bjorkowitz admitting his lifelong addiction to fast fashion. He shares his experience of accumulating trendy, low-priced clothing and turning to influencer "dupe" videos on Instagram during the COVID-19 pandemic. These videos showcased affordable alternatives to high-end brands, providing a "quick dopamine hit" that Cole found irresistible.

Cole Bjorkowitz [00:02]: "I have been addicted to fast fashion my entire life, which means I've stocked my closet with super trendy clothes at really low prices."

Recognizing the environmental and ethical drawbacks of fast fashion, Cole reaches out to Rachel Tashian, The Washington Post's style critic, for guidance on breaking this habit.

2. Impact of Tariffs on Fast Fashion

Rachel Tashian explains the economic factors exacerbating the rise in clothing prices. The U.S. government, under President Trump's administration, has imposed tariffs exceeding 100% on goods imported from China, affecting fast fashion brands like Shein, Temu, and even high-end brands such as Hermes.

Rachel Tashian [01:43]: "The dupes that you're talking about, a lot of those things are made in China, so they're going to be subject to some pretty hefty tariffs come May 2nd."

These tariffs aim to close the "de minimis loophole," which previously allowed imports under $800 to bypass import duties. With the implementation of these tariffs, companies are forced to increase their prices to absorb the additional costs.

Rachel Tashian [04:21]: "Trump has closed this loophole that's taking effect on May 2nd. And that means that consumers are going to have to start paying fees on these pieces."

Even luxury brands are not exempt. Hermes, known for its French manufacturing, will face increased costs, leading to higher prices in the U.S. market.

3. Ethical and Environmental Concerns

Beyond economic reasons, Rachel emphasizes the ethical and environmental implications of fast fashion. Fast fashion often relies on underpaid labor in countries like China, Bangladesh, and Malaysia, raising concerns about worker conditions and fair wages.

Rachel Tashian [06:13]: "Garment workers in China, in Bangladesh, and in Malaysia... may not be getting paid a fair wage."

Additionally, fast fashion's environmental impact is significant. Low-quality garments contribute to waste as they quickly fall apart, leading to a throwaway culture rather than promoting repair and sustainability.

Rachel Tashian [07:15]: "We're throwing out clothing rather than repairing it or mending it."

4. The Challenge of American-Made Clothing

A shift to American-made clothing is presented as a potential solution, but Rachel points out several challenges. Producing clothing domestically is prohibitively expensive, with a simple t-shirt from designer Natalie Shannon costing around $70 and even reaching $268 online.

Rachel Tashian [08:31]: "For her to make just a simple plain white t shirt is $70."

Moreover, the U.S. lacks the necessary farming and manufacturing infrastructure to produce a wide variety of fabrics, especially synthetic materials commonly used in fast fashion. Establishing such infrastructure would require significant time and investment.

Rachel Tashian [09:03]: "We don't have the farming infrastructure anymore in this country to even produce the kinds of fabrics that are needed to make clothing domestically."

5. Shifting Perceptions of Clothing Costs

Rachel discusses how the fashion industry's pricing strategies have distorted consumers' perceptions of what constitutes a reasonable price for clothing. The prevalence of constant sales and the lure of "dupes" have made it challenging for shoppers to understand the true value of well-made garments.

Rachel Tashian [10:06]: "Fashion companies have really warped our sense of how much things should cost."

High-end fashion remains out of reach for many middle-class shoppers, and the constant cycle of discounts makes it difficult to gauge the actual worth of items.

Rachel Tashian [10:43]: "It's impossible now" for middle-class shoppers to afford luxury brands without significant savings.

6. Shopping Smarter: Tips from Rachel Tashian

In the latter part of the episode, Rachel provides actionable advice for consumers seeking to navigate rising clothing prices responsibly.

a. Embracing Secondhand Markets

Rachel advocates for secondhand shopping as a sustainable and cost-effective alternative. The secondhand market has expanded with platforms catering to various budgets and styles, from high-end sites like The RealReal and Vestia to more accessible options like Thredup, Etsy, and Poshmark.

Rachel Tashian [13:37]: "The secondhand market has been booming actually for the past five or six years."

She highlights the importance of searching for "new with tags" (NWT) items, which are often unused and available at a fraction of the original price.

Rachel Tashian [13:37]: "If you add NWT new with tags to any of your searches, you can very often find the version of the thing that you are already looking for that is new."

b. Strategies for Inclusive Sizing

Rachel acknowledges the challenges faced by shoppers who do not fit standard sizing. She suggests utilizing search functions on secondhand platforms to filter by size and setting up email alerts for specific items.

Rachel Tashian [18:35]: "Use the search functions of these websites... set up email alerts for particular kinds of products."

Additionally, she recommends consulting a good tailor to alter purchases for a perfect fit, enhancing the longevity and satisfaction of secondhand clothing.

Rachel Tashian [19:46]: "A great tailor is a big help... and it really is worth it to me."

c. Mindful Shopping Practices

Rachel encourages shoppers to adopt a more mindful approach to purchasing. This involves:

• Browsing Without Buying: Visit stores to try on clothes without the pressure to purchase immediately. Reflect on whether the item is genuinely needed or merely a fleeting desire.

  Rachel Tashian [20:00]: "Shop more without buying anything... see how things fit and how they feel."

• Focusing on Versatility: Choose classic pieces that can be styled in multiple ways, ensuring they complement existing items in the wardrobe.

  Rachel Tashian [16:50]: "Are there three different ways that I can wear this?"

• Prioritizing Personal Satisfaction: Select clothing that brings joy and confidence, rather than adhering to fleeting trends or external opinions.

  Rachel Tashian [17:53]: "Have things in your closet that fit you well and that you like so much that you enjoy wearing them over and over again."

7. Conclusion: Tariffs and Market Responses

The episode concludes with a brief discussion on the political ramifications of Trump's tariffs. The White House criticized Amazon for allegedly considering displaying tariff-induced price increases, an action President Trump labeled as "hostile and a political act." Amazon denied the claim, clarifying that such plans were never approved and would not be pursued.

Cole Bjorkowitz [22:54]: "President Trump called founder Jeff Bezos on Tuesday to complain about it... says, 'he's a good guy.'"

The hosts wrap up by emphasizing the importance of adapting shopping habits in response to economic and political changes, urging listeners to make informed and responsible choices moving forward.

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Key Takeaways:

• Tariffs are significantly increasing clothing prices, especially for fast fashion brands importing from China.
• Ethical and environmental concerns make fast fashion an unsustainable choice, both socially and environmentally.
• American-made clothing remains prohibitively expensive and not a feasible alternative for most consumers in the near term.
• Consumers need to reassess their relationship with clothing, understanding true value and prioritizing quality over quantity.
• Secondhand markets offer a viable solution for obtaining quality clothing at reduced prices.
• Mindful shopping practices can help consumers make informed decisions, reducing unnecessary purchases and promoting sustainability.

Notable Quotes:

• Cole Bjorkowitz [00:02]: "I have been addicted to fast fashion my entire life..."
• Rachel Tashian [04:21]: "Trump has closed this loophole that's taking effect on May 2nd..."
• Rachel Tashian [06:13]: "Garment workers... may not be getting paid a fair wage."
• Rachel Tashian [13:37]: "The secondhand market has been booming..."
• Rachel Tashian [20:00]: "Shop more without buying anything..."

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For More Information:

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Transcript

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

So I have a confession. I have been addicted to fast fashion my entire life, which means I've stocked my closet with super trendy clothes at really low prices. And then during COVID when I couldn't go shopping in person anymore, I got addicted to these influencer videos on Instagram. These are the free people pull on shorts, and they are so, so cute. Maybe you've seen these dupe videos before. A woman will show you a pair of free people shorts, for example, that maybe cost around $100, but then she'll show you the Amazon copy that costs only $20.

[Rachel Tashian]

The Amazon shorts that I'm gonna share next with you look identical to these, though I haven't tried them on yet.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

I just took them out of the.

[Rachel Tashian]

Package, but they have the same, like, cute little buttons on the front.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Finding these dupes and then buying them provided the kind of quick dopamine hit that was hard to come by during COVID And even now, years later, I've found it impossible to kick the habit. And I know I should. Fast fashion is horrible for the environment and raises all sorts of ethical questions about child labor and worker conditions. It also, it adds up financially when you're stockpiling knockoff sweaters. So I called up the Post style critic Rachel Tashtian for some help.

[Rachel Tashian]

Well, I actually have to say it's very impressive that, you know, this is a problem because I think there are a lot of shoppers and consumers who have just gotten so used to shopping in this way and, and simply think they found this great, intelligent and affordable workaround.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Rachel also says there's a good economic reason to try to reset my bad shopping habits now. Tariffs.

[Rachel Tashian]

The dupes that you're talking about, a lot of those things are made in China, so they're going to be subject to some pretty hefty tariffs come May 2nd. So I think a lot of us who have this fast fashion addiction or even who use this to shop pretty casually, you know, things are really going to change in that regard.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

From the newsroom and style pages of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Cole Bjorkowitz. It's Tuesday, April 29th. Today, President Trump's more than 100% tariffs on goods from China are about to drive up the cost of clothing. Rachel takes us through why this is going to hit fast fashion prices particularly hard and shares her tips for shopping smarter. Well, Rachel, hi. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Rachel Tashian]

Of course. Thanks for having me.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

So, Rachel, you are our fashion critic, our resident fashion critic at the Post and you recently wrote about taking this moment, Trump's latest round of tariffs, and using it as a moment to reset our relationship with shopping, particularly shopping for clothes. We heard about my bad shopping habits. Are there any bad shopping habits that you're trying to break?

[Rachel Tashian]

Well, I think we all have bad shopping habits, actually. You know, I think we have a very warped relationship to our closets, to consumerism, to even, you know, things as woo woo as desire. And, you know, that high, even that I think a lot of people get either having something in a shopping bag that's new or, you know, more likely having packages when we come home of new things that we've ordered, you know, that is really an addictive feeling. And so I really feel this is a moment where all of the sudden we're going to have to ask, well, what do we really need and how much are we willing to pay for it?

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Right. And so at a time when you're facing so much economic uncertainty, it's really, people are gonna have to balance, like need versus want. Rachel, I know you're gonna give us some shopping tips, but before that, I'm hoping you can just explain a little bit how US Trade policy is impacting the price of clothing and specifically fast fashion items that are shipped directly from China by e commerce companies like Shein and Temu, or sold on Amazon, which I should say. Now, Amazon founder Jeff Bezos also owns the Washington Post.

[Rachel Tashian]

So part of the reason why fast fashion from places like Shein and Temu has been so cheap is that these companies are able to ship under what is called the de minimis loophole. And that means that any package coming from China, as well as a handful of other countries that is under $800 is not subject to import duties. So, you know, it's pretty hard to get a bill of $800 on Sheehan because so many of the things are five, six, seven, you know, $8. And Trump has closed this loophole that's taking effect on May 2nd. And that means that, you know, consumers are going to have to start paying fees on these pieces. Now, some companies are already making adjustments to their pricing in order to incorporate those fees into their clothing. So, for example, Shein and Temu have both announced that they're increasing their prices when you're used to paying that rock bottom price. And we're, you know, entering a moment of economic precarity, any increase is, of course, a pain point. And this is actually, it's interesting, this is impacting companies on the higher end of fashion as well. You Know, Hermes, which makes almost all of its products in France, will also be subject to a new tariff under Trump's rules. And they have also announced that they will be increasing the prices of their goods in the United States.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Okay, so we know that prices are going to go up, but there's always been other reasons that we should think about our clothing differently. Right. Can you talk about some of the other ethical or environmental reasons that you would push people to break up with fast fashion?

[Rachel Tashian]

Of course. I mean, I think, first of all, one question that we should always ask ourselves. When we can find the cheaper version of something that's more expensive, why is it less expensive? You know, very often someone else is paying the cost for your less expensive item. And what that means is that there are garment workers in China, in Bangladesh, and in Malaysia, which are three countries, just to name some of the top countries that produce these kinds of garments where they may not be getting paid a fair wage. So I think it's really important. When you see a T shirt that is $5, for example, you have to remember that a retailer will usually mark up a piece. Obviously they're not selling it for the price it costs to prod. And so if that is the marked up price, what is the person who is making that garment being paid?

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

That's a really great point.

[Rachel Tashian]

Yeah. And then of course, I think there's the environmental piece of this. You know, the reality is that we, if we're shopping at fast fashion sites or from fast fashion brands, those clothes tend to fall apart pretty quickly. And it means that we're throwing out clothing rather than repairing it or mending it.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Well, then what about buying from American made brands? Part of the reason that's been given for even having these tariffs is to encourage more American manufacturing. Right. So is that a real option for people?

[Rachel Tashian]

The simple answer is no. And, you know, while I was reporting my piece about tariffs and secondhand shopping and fast fashion, I spoke with a designer named Natalie Shannon, who about two decades ago decided to buy a shuttered factory in Alabama and began making and manufacturing clothing in the United States. She uses organically grown cotton, mostly from Texas, some of it from other parts of the south, and it's spun and knitted in the Carolinas. And for her to make just a simple plain white t shirt is $70.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

I'm also seeing, like I looked on their site. Cause I know that you talked to her. I'm seeing a T shirt on here for $268.

[Rachel Tashian]

Yes.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah, I mean, that's just. That's A price point that, you know, a lot of people are not gonna be able to purchase.

[Rachel Tashian]

Absolutely. Especially if you're used to, as many of us are buying a Hanes t shirt for $6.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah. So, I mean, I guess if you're. The tariffs are gonna increase the cost of clothes coming from abroad, but also to buy American is already probably prohibitively expensive for a lot of people.

[Rachel Tashian]

Exactly. And, you know, we just don't have the farming infrastructure anymore in this country to even produce the kinds of fabrics that are needed to make clothing domestically. And of course, you have to remember, most fast fashion is not made of cotton or, you know, silk. It's made of synthetic fabrics, polyesters and that sort of thing. And we, we also don't have the infrastructure in this country to produce those kinds of fabric. So, you know, if we do want to begin making fabrics and producing a lot of clothing in the United States, again, it will be, you know, I would say, probably a couple of decades before that could really be a reality.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

So, Rachel, I also wanted to ask you because you wrote in a recent column that for a lot of American shoppers, myself included, we've forgotten, like, how much a decently made item of clothing should cost when it's new.

[Rachel Tashian]

Right.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how we've kind of lost perspective on, like, what should clothing cost?

[Rachel Tashian]

Well, one of my great frustrations has been that fashion companies have really warped our sense of how much things should cost. You know, on the higher end, when I go to Fashion Week, for example, and cover, you know, the shows in Milan and Paris, I really increasingly am just thinking, but who in the world can afford these things? You know, it was not so long ago that a middle class shopper could kind of say, okay, I'm going to put aside some money for a couple of months and get a Prada handbag or a jacket from Dior. And that's just impossible now.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Right.

[Rachel Tashian]

And then of course, in a lot of the brands that we're used to shopping at the mall, like a J. Crew or a Banana Republic, are very often in this cycle of constant sales. So the price that we see on the price tag, you know, we often think, hmm, well, shouldn't I wait? Because, you know, I could log on the site tomorrow and they're suddenly saying, surprise, it's spring. 30% off everything.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Totally.

[Rachel Tashian]

And then on top of that, we have fast fashion telling us, well, I can get you that thing that you're looking at at J. Crew or Anthropologie for a tenth of the cost.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Right.

[Rachel Tashian]

So it is so confusing to figure this out. I will say I go into J. Crew and Banana all the time. I look at the seams of things. I feel the fab, I try things on and and I do the same at Anthropologie. I would still say that those products to me in general feel pretty good. The quality is better noticeably than what I see from Shein or from an Amazon dupe or from H and M. Not always, but consistently enough. So to me that kind of remains the standard of what we should expect to pay for something.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

After the break, Rachel shares her shopping tips to find deals even as prices go up. We'll be right back.

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[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Okay, Rachel, we know tariffs are going to raise prices, so now I want your tips. How can bargain or budget conscious shoppers like me find better quality clothes for a good price?

[Rachel Tashian]

I think this is the time to get interested in secondhand clothing and the secondhand market has been booming actually for the past, you know, five or six years. There are so many platforms from the RealReal and Vestia, which are more high end to things like Thredup and Etsy is another way. Poshmark, Poshmark, where you can actually find. This is one of my favorite tips. If you add NWT new with tags to any of your searches, you can very often find the version of the thing that you are already looking for that is new and that someone bought or received as a gift and thought, I'm never going to wear this. So this is really a great moment. For I think, consumers to learn some of the tricks of the trade for secondhand and vintage shopping.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

I mean, I will say that I, in addition to my addiction to fast fashion, I'm also just like, addicted to shopping in general. And so I have, in addition to that, shopped at consignment shops and thrift stores, like, also as a supplement to my Amazon and Forever 21 shopping. And I love it. So I agree that consignment shops and thrift shopping is a great way to avoid these tariffs, but I wonder if some people are just really, like, intimidated by that.

[Rachel Tashian]

Of course, of course. It is very intimidating. And it takes a lot of time. I mean, I think a great place to start is to think about brands, you know, and already, like, if you already like free people and you know, how their clothing fits, it's going to be a lot easier to go on an app like, you know, Poshmark, or there's a site I love called Gem, which kind of scrapes all. It scrapes ebay and Etsy and all of these secondhand platforms.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

No way.

[Rachel Tashian]

It makes things a lot easier. Yeah. And so if, you know, you know, oh, J. Crew's jeans fit me wonderfully, or there was a pair of, you know, chinos that they made 10 years ago that they don't make anymore, I mean, that's a great place to start, is just to know, okay, like, a size 32 in J. Crew pants is gonna fit me really well, or a size 10, or, you know, yeah, so I, I do think that's like, you know, start with what you already know you like.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

That's really good advice. Any other tips for people that are, that are new to that type of shopping?

[Rachel Tashian]

I think a really important piece of secondhand shopping is to know your measurements. Especially if you're thinking about doing some secondhand shopping online. It's very easy to message the person who is selling something and say, hey, would you mind just taking a tape measure and telling me what, you know, the measurements are of this skirt and then actually seeing, you know, how that comports with what your measurements are and that, you know, ensures that you won't have to return something. I think also, you know, focus on things that are classic. And I don't mean things that are preppy or boring.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

I mean things like a white button down shirt.

[Rachel Tashian]

Exactly, exactly. I like to think when I am shopping, I look at a piece that I find really interesting, and I think, are there three different ways that I can wear this? Are there three outfits that I can make with things that I already have in my wardrobe, and is this serving a purpose that is different than what I would otherwise wear in place of this? And, you know, I think another thing just to really keep in mind is we need to think more about what brings us pleasure to wear and perhaps less about what other people are thinking about what we're wearing, what's trendy. Yeah. And, you know, I hear from so many readers that, you know, well, I just don't want to be showing up in the same thing over and over again. But ideally, you have things in your closet that fit you well and that you like so much that you enjoy wearing them over and over again. I really feel that way.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah.

[Rachel Tashian]

And I know a lot of people who feel that way. And I assure you that if you wear something and people have already seen it, they either won't remember or. Or they see that you're really comfortable and happy in it, and they're like, wow, they look really great. I'm so glad to see them wearing that again.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah. What would you say to people, and I wonder if you've heard this from readers, maybe people that are not an average size, someone who might be as really petite, or maybe someone who's plus size. I feel like on Amazon and these different sites, you know, the size ranges can be really broad. Is it harder for people who are not, you know, quote your typical size to find clothes this way?

[Rachel Tashian]

For sure. And I hear that. I do hear this a lot from readers because I think a lot of clothing that tends to be vintage or secondhand, I mean, a lot of it comes from a different time period where our bodies were different, you know, so I mean, my best advice for someone who is, you know, not a. A tiny size or is not a kind of typical fashion size, if you will, is to use the. Use the search functions of these websites. You know, when you go on the realreal, you can narrow down what it is that you're searching for by size. And you can also set up email sort of alerts for particular kinds of products. So, like, let's say you really are wanting a black linen jumpsuit and you're a size 14. You can set up an alert for that and you'll get an email every time something that fits those parameters comes into the store. Yeah. So you're not hunting and hunting all the times. And also, you know, a great tailor is a big help. I have bought pieces that are, you know, $25, and I've spent twice that on getting it tailored. And it really is worth it to Me?

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah. So it actually fits the way you want it to fit. You know, like I said, I'm a big fan of secondhand shopping. But for people who still want to buy new clothes, do you have any tips for them on how to do that in a smarter way?

[Rachel Tashian]

I have some sort of strange advice, which is to actually shop more and to shop more without buying anything. You know, if you. Let's say you're on your lunch break and you have an extra 30 minutes, go into a store and just try things on. Remember, there is no pressure to buy anything.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah.

[Rachel Tashian]

See how things fit and see how they feel. And what are you thinking about the next day or days later? Is that skirt that you tried on still really resonating with you? Are you still. Is your mind really lingering over it, or have you totally forgotten it? I think if we looked more without that pressure or that feeling or desire to buy, we're going to know better when we're really wanting something, as opposed to that moment where you're in the dressing room and you're like, oh, God, this coat is going to change my life. I think that's something that has actually really helped me because if you become a little bit more of a connoisseur of what you like, then you become a little bit snobbier about what you actually want to have.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah. And a little more strategic.

[Rachel Tashian]

Exactly. Yeah. And I know that might sound to some people like, don't eat the truffles, just smell them. But I do think. I do think that can be really beneficial. And I think focusing on things that will supplement what you already have and really interrogating yourself and your wardrobe about, like, okay, do I really need this? And knowing that it's okay to say, I do really need or want this.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah. For most of my shopping life, I've bought things because I really want them, but not necessarily because I need any of it.

[Rachel Tashian]

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's true of all of us. And in fact, you know, one of the pleasures, of course, of fashion is that it conflates want and need. And in certain ways, I don't want to discount that. You know, like, I was talking to another colleague of mine yesterday about the Beyonce tour this summer, and I said, you know, it is very important that if you feel that you need a cowboy hat for this concert, you should get it, because you know that's gonna be an incredible and moment in your life. But again, like, do we need a new outfit for every wedding that we go to? Do we need an entirely new wardrobe to return to the office. I'm not sure that we do.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Yeah. Or like an entirely new wardrobe when you go on vacation. I feel like every time I go on vacation I'm like, well, I clearly need three new bathing suits and three like tropical looking dresses and they will all arrive on my doorstep within 48 hours.

[Rachel Tashian]

Exactly.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Well, Rachel, you have inspired me to try to get my fix a little bit in a more responsible way. Thank you so much and we'll continue looking to you for great shopping tips.

[Rachel Tashian]

Thanks so much.

[Cole Bjorkowitz]

Rachel Tashian is a fashion critic for the Washington Post. And speaking of Trump's tariffs and Amazon, the White House slammed the company over reports that it was considering listing how much tariffs had caused prices to go up, calling it, quote, hostile and a political act. President Trump called founder Jeff Bezos on Tuesday to complain about it. Amazon then disputed the claim, but said that it had considered listing some tariff information on its haul site, which is a low cost site similar to temu. A spokesperson for the company later said, quote, this was never approved and it's not going to happen. After his call with Bezos, Trump told reporters, quote, he solved the problem quickly, he did the right thing and he's a good guy. That's it for Post reports. Thanks for listening. If you love the show, help other people discover it by leaving a rating on Spotify or a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Today's show was produced by Laura Benshoff. It was mixed by Sam Baer and edited by Lucy Perkins. Thanks to Lindsay Underwood. I'm Colby. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.