The Diddy trial: Race, consent, and why the trial matters

Summary

Post Reports: The Diddy Trial – Race, Consent, and Why the Trial Matters

Release Date: June 20, 2025

Introduction

In the latest episode of Post Reports, host Elahe Izadi delves into the high-stakes trial of music mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs. Charged with racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking, and transportation to engage in prostitution, Combs faces severe legal repercussions, including the possibility of lifelong imprisonment. Joined by Washington Post reporters Helena Andrews Dyer and Anne Brannigan, the episode explores the multifaceted implications of the trial, encompassing public perception, media influence, racial dynamics, and the broader context of the MeToo movement.

Public Image and Courtroom Appearance

The trial marks a stark contrast to Diddy's previously flamboyant public persona. Helena Andrews Dyer highlights how Combs is attempting to remodel his image, presenting himself as more subdued and humble in court. “All we're seeing is the court drawings and illustrations where he looks grayer, where he's like, wearing a dad sweater,” [04:23] Anne Brannigan notes, emphasizing the significant shift from his iconic "Puffy" image.

Despite the change in appearance, Combs maintains an active demeanor in the courtroom. Anne observes, “He's very engaged. He's constantly writing notes. He's constantly in his lawyer's ears,” [05:37] illustrating his strategic approach to the trial. This behavior contrasts sharply with traditional expectations of defendants appearing contrite, adding a layer of complexity to the public's perception of him.

Media Coverage and Public Perception

The trial is being scrutinized through diverse media lenses, from traditional outlets like CNN and The Washington Post to social media influencers and platforms such as Instagram and TikTok. Helena comments on the fragmented media landscape: “There's a ton of that. It's absolutely what folks are talking about,” [07:36] indicating the pervasive influence of digital media in shaping narratives around the trial.

Anne Brannigan provides insight into the spatial dynamics of media coverage within the courthouse: “You see Combs with his defense team of eight plus lawyers. And it's a pretty diverse team... whereas YouTubers, your influencers, they're watching from these overflow rooms,” [08:52] highlighting the distinct approaches and environments in which different media factions operate.

Impact on Business and Cultural Legacy

Public opinion plays a crucial role in determining the future of Combs' extensive business ventures. Helena underscores the potential fallout: “If you are a clothing brand, if you are a cologne, like, it's hard to see him come back from something like this,” [10:14] suggesting significant repercussions for his endorsements and brand partnerships.

The trial also serves as a cultural touchstone, prompting a reevaluation of Combs' legacy in the music and fashion industries. Anne Brannigan emphasizes the duality of the trial's influence: “It's also really valuable for people who have survived sexual assault because... it's sending a message to survivors of sexual assault about what it means to be believed,” [12:50] highlighting the broader societal implications beyond Combs himself.

The MeToo Movement and Legal Reforms

The trial is intrinsically linked to the advancements and complexities of the MeToo movement. Elahe Izadi frames the discussion by referencing the Adult Survivors Act of 2023, which enabled Combs' ex-girlfriend Cassie Ventura to file her lawsuit. Helena Andrews Dyer reflects on the evolving perception of the movement: “It's almost hard for people to conceptualize. So they start to frivolize it,” [17:51] addressing concerns about the dilution of MeToo’s core principles.

Anne Brannigan adds that the trial acts as a “temperature check” for societal attitudes towards consent and accountability. She draws parallels with the Harvey Weinstein retrial, noting: “One of the ways that we measure how we as a society are feeling about these things is actually through these celebrity trials,” [19:07], indicating that the outcome will influence public sentiment and policy directions.

Race and the Justice System

Race plays a pivotal role in the dynamics of the trial, with Diddy’s defense team emphasizing racial bias in his prosecution. Helena discusses the historical mistrust of legal institutions among Black communities, referencing figures like O.J. Simpson and R. Kelly: “There is a distrust of the legal institutions because we know it was not designed for minorities,” [25:04].

Anne Brannigan connects the charges against Combs to historical legislation, such as the Mann Act, noting its racially charged origins: “The Mann Act was also known as the white slave traffic Act. So that origin still hangs above the application of it,” [27:46]. This historical context underscores the racialized nature of certain legal charges and their application in high-profile cases.

Trial Proceedings and Defense Strategy

As the prosecution approaches the conclusion of its case, anticipation builds around the defense's forthcoming strategy. Anne Brannigan anticipates a swift deployment of the defense's witnesses: “They might not take a long time to call witnesses forward at all. They might suggest they feel pretty confident about their ability to introduce doubt,” [31:12]. Helena speculates that the defense will seek to humanize Combs, portraying him as a flawed individual striving for personal growth: “He's trying to be better. And he’s sort of been showing that outside the courtroom even before any of this came to light,” [32:52].

Conclusion

The Diddy trial serves as a critical junction for multiple societal dialogues, including racial justice, the evolution of the MeToo movement, and the influence of media in shaping public opinion. As Helena Andrews Dyer aptly puts it, the trial is a “barometer” [21:48] for contemporary cultural and legal standards surrounding consent and accountability. The outcome will not only determine Combs' future but also reflect the current state and trajectory of these broader societal issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Anne Brannigan: “Having AI Brad Pitt testifying at the trial is just, I don't think I could have conceived of that.” [00:13]
• Helena Andrews Dyer: “I cannot, I almost want to say nothing has surprised me...” [00:51]
• Anne Brannigan: “He's constantly writing notes. He's constantly in his lawyer's ears.” [05:37]
• Helena Andrews Dyer: “If you are a clothing brand, if you are a cologne, like, it's hard to see him come back from something like this.” [10:14]
• Helena Andrews Dyer: “It's almost hard for people to conceptualize. So they start to frivolize it.” [17:51]
• Anne Brannigan: “One of the ways that we measure how we as a society are feeling about these things is actually through these celebrity trials.” [19:07]

Produced by: Sabi Robinson
Mixed by: Rennie Srinofsky
Edited by: Rena Flores
Thanks to: Carla Spartos
Team Includes: Maggie Penman, Ted Muldoon, Alana Gordon, Ariel Plotnick, Emma Taukoff, Shawn Carter, Peter Bresnan, Laura Benshoff, Renita Jablonski, Colby Ikowicz, Martine Powers
Intern: Tadeo Ruiz Sandoval

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Transcript

[Elahe Izadi]

The first thing I wanted to ask you both is what has been the most surprising part of the Sean Combs trial for you? Let's start with you, Ann.

[Anne Brannigan]

I think a lot of the public reaction, even though I guess, like, broadly it hasn't surprised me, the sheer weirdness of it has been surprising. Yeah. Like having AI Brad Pitt testifying at the trial is just, I don't think I could have conceived of that.

[Elahe Izadi]

Wait, Brad Pitt testify?

[Anne Brannigan]

He didn't. But there are AI recreations that people have made that make it look like that.

[Elahe Izadi]

Okay. That is, I didn't have that on my bingo card. Helena, what's been the most try and top that? Try and top Brad. AI Brad Pitt.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

I, I cannot, I almost want to say nothing has surprised me, which I know makes me sound super jaded and cynical, even when it comes to social media's reaction, as Anne was pointing out. I mean, some people are taking things extremely seriously and some people absolutely are not. And every time I see it, I think, yeah, that kind of tracks.

[Elahe Izadi]

From the newsroom of the Washington Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Elahe izadi. It's Friday, June 20th. We've been covering the trial of music mogul Sean Diddy Combs from inside of the courtroom most weeks. Today we're going to talk about why this trial matters outside of the courtroom. And as a reminder, Combs is charged with racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking and transportation to engage in prostitution. He has pleaded not guilty. If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life in prison. Today I'm joined by culture reporter Helena Andrews Dyer. Hey, Helena.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Hi, Johe.

[Elahe Izadi]

And we're also joined by style reporter Anne Brannigan. Hey, Anne.

[Anne Brannigan]

Hey.

[Elahe Izadi]

So we're going to talk about this master image maker Sean Combs, also known as Puff Puff Daddy Diddy, and how he's trying to manage that image now. And we'll also tackle the bigger societal questions this trial is raising about race in the justice system and consent in the aftermath of the MeToo movement. So first, I wanted to start with you, Helena, because you are someone who's been following Sean Combs throughout his career. You spoke with us at the beginning of this series of us covering the Diddy trial about how Sean Combs is someone who has held a lot of power and importance, not just in the music industry, but also in other media, like in fashion. He started a high end streetwear line. Sean John, we all remember Sean John and he was at the center of celebrity culture because he also threw these huge parties and all kinds of people would attend. So going into this trial, how did you think he was going to try to shape the public image that was going out about him?

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

I would say he was so larger than life for so long. Right. He literally, like, was riding the top of the wave at peak hip hop. Right.

[Elahe Izadi]

Like, just like in the 90s and.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

90S arts, like the white furs, the dancing, the white parties, the over the top bling. But like, that is all puffy. Like, that is all, as I call him, puffy. Right.

[Elahe Izadi]

That was all showing your. Dating yourself. I know.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Absolutely. Dating myself. That was all sort of thanks to him in the image that he had created. We constantly say in the media that he was like a great Gatsby figure. He named himself that. Right. And so I think it was clear to anyone watching that going into a trial like this that he would need to, at least outwardly, look quite humbled. All we're seeing is the court drawings and illustrations where he looks grayer, where he's like, wearing a dad sweater. Right. Like, it's clear that he's trying to somewhat rehabilitate the way that we would see him. So separately from how so many of.

[Elahe Izadi]

Us thought he was like, we're not seeing the white fur Diddy. We're seeing.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

He's not coming in there looking slick.

[Elahe Izadi]

Right. Well, and you've been at the courthouse, so how have you seen him show up inside the courtroom?

[Anne Brannigan]

Well, yeah, like Helena said, he's been wearing, you know, a limited assortment of these sweaters that look like you could have picked them up from Kohl's or TJ Maxx. Right.

[Elahe Izadi]

Which. No shade, but.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Oh, TJ Maxx all day.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah. But it's like a far cry from the Diddy we knew before.

[Anne Brannigan]

Right, right. And image wise, if you just look at pictures, it looks quite different. But the demeanor really struck me, especially as the course of the trial has gone on, because he is somebody who's very engaged. Like, he's not sitting there kind of performing in the typical ways we see a defendant perform. He's not sitting around looking contrite. He's very active. He's constantly writing notes. He's constantly in his lawyer's ears. So even as there's very disturbing testimony happening, he looks like somebody who's at work with his lawyers. They really seem to defer to him in some really notable ways. He, you know, fist bumps his lawyers, hugs his lawyers. So he's.

[Elahe Izadi]

He also got in trouble. Right. Like, for how he interacted with the jury.

[Anne Brannigan]

Right. So he was looking at the jury and nodding his head really vigorously. Right. And he was rebuked by the judge for that.

[Elahe Izadi]

Mm. Mm. Helena, you kind of touched on this already, and I think it's important to just say, in case we forget, this trial is not being livestreamed. The only way that we know what's going on inside of the courtroom is because of people like Anne and also other people who are journalists at organizations like the Washington Post are there telling us what's going on there. So, Helena, for someone who's not there, but paying very close attention to how the rest of, you know, the culture and the media ecosystem, like, how is what's happening there being perceived outside the courtroom?

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Well, I would say a lot of what I'm seeing, besides Ann's incredible reports, is on Instagram. Right. And whether that is like, social media influencers who are getting into the court and then, like, reporting after. Right. And kind of like, summarizing. Or those who are just, like, following live updates from a legitimate news organization and then, like, you know, summarizing it and digesting it for their own audiences through their perception of what's happening. That's. I'm seeing a ton of that. Like, it's been heavy on the Shade Room. Right. You've seen the Shade Room, which is a very popular Instagram account.

[Elahe Izadi]

Like, celebrity gossip stuff. Yeah.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

They've obviously been talking about the trial every single day and what's going on with it. And you see people trying to guess who's who and all that kind of stuff. And then you see the people who are commenting, that they still think he's sort of being railroaded. Or you have people who are commenting, they're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this is who this person may be. You know, like thousands of comments. It's absolutely what folks are talking about, I think, Anne.

[Elahe Izadi]

I mean, I have so many things I want to ask you, Ann, but just first of all, since you are there, present at the courthouse, what does it look like to you when you are watching who is coming to watch this trial and report on it?

[Anne Brannigan]

We have traditional media, you know, a lot of cnn, there's us, of course, the Washington Post, the Times, ap, all the organizations that you think of when you think of, you know, traditional news media. But there are also influencers, YouTubers, TikTokers, and even spatially, it's interesting how, like, within the world of the courthouse, they're also in two different very places. Like, they're very different in terms of what they're trying to give their audiences, but they're even separated out in these really notable ways. So, for example, where I sit is in the press room, and that's where all of these traditional media outlets, a lot of them are watching the trial. Right. Whereas with your YouTubers, your influencers, they're watching from these overflow room. Right. So we're not even sort of rubbing shoulder to shoulder necessarily, as we're covering the same thing. And I think that spatial difference is just sort of mirrored in all of these other ways in terms of how differently these two sort of factions of media are approaching this trial.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah. And the way that this trial is being presented through these diverse media factions gets at this idea of the court of public opinion, how public opinion is being shaped about this trial. And obviously, Combs will be convicted based on 12 jurors or will be acquitted based on the opinion of 12 jurors. Not with everyone else thinks. But let's be real. How much does public opinion matter in this trial? Anne, what do you think?

[Anne Brannigan]

So the jury is not supposed to be taking in or reading any media. This is not a sequestered jury. So, you know, they have their phones on them. They have all the usual people around them. You know, they're getting news alerts like the rest of us. But they've been very carefully instructed not to look at anything. Right. So in theory, it should not matter. In reality, policing these things is difficult. So I think I see Combs with his team moving on two levels here. There's the case that they're presenting for the jury, but there's also the stuff that they want everybody else to know.

[Elahe Izadi]

Hmm. Helena, beyond whether public opinion will influence the actual outcome of this criminal prosecution, why does public opinion matter about this trial?

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Public opinion matters because, let's say, and you have to use all the journalistic, hypothetically, allegedly, all of these things that he gets off and he walks out of that courtroom, what is he going to do next? If you are, you know, a, let's say, an alcohol brand, do you want Sean Combs to be the face of it at this point? If you are a reality show, do you. You know what I mean?

[Elahe Izadi]

These are all business ventures. He's been.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

He's already done exact. So if you are a clothing brand, if you are a cologne, like, it's hard to see him come back from something like this just because so much has been. So much has been said and so much has been out there that he has not denied. Right. They don't deny the freak offs. They don't Deny that those were happening.

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah, like those are the sex parties involving male escorts and his girlfriends.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Exactly. And the. And all of the baby oil, plus the drugs, you know, what do you do after his last album, which was the Love album, you know, was. I think it sold 30k in the first week. Is that mostly streamed? No, I mean, it's mostly stuff is streaming these days, but, you know, it wasn't some huge critical and or commercial success. And it was like his quote, unquote, return to music. So if that's not of maybe available to him and all these other streams may not be available to him. Yeah. Public opinion matters deeply, because then what's he gonna do?

[Elahe Izadi]

Well, and the other question I have is I don't know if any of you listen to the radio. No, but I listen to maybe mostly grown folks radio, which is like music that was really popular in, like the 80s, 90s and early aughts. And even now you turn it on and it's like you can't go 30 minutes without hearing a song that was produced by Sean Combs or artists became famous because of him. And so is he gonna become such a pariah that beyond his ability to make money, other people, the rest of us will people increasingly, if they haven't already, stop listening to him. Is his music not gonna be played on the radio? And then that has downstream effects for how much money he can make. But also, just like as both Helena and Anne, you both talked about in the first series of these conversations, his cultural impact, like, will there be a revisitation of the impact he's had on culture if he's convicted?

[Anne Brannigan]

Right. And I want to also add here quickly that, you know, the way that this trial is talked about is not just important for Combs, although it is, you know, as we discussed, very important for him. But it's also really valuable for people who have survived, you know, sexual assault because. And this is something that was brought up, you know, by the prosecution, they're very aware that there's a lot of eyes on this trial. And the way that people have been talked about, the way that gossip sites and, you know, certain personalities have tried to out women who are alleged victims of sex crimes and are testifying under court protection, all of that behavior is being clocked by people. All of that behavior is something that's sending a message to survivors of sexual assault about what it means to be believed and what could happen if they come forward.

[Elahe Izadi]

After the break, we discuss what this trial says about the state of the MeToo movement. We'll be right back.

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[Elahe Izadi]

You know, Ann, you're bringing up kind of the heart of the case in some ways, which are these allegations of sexual misconduct, you know, the transportation to engage in prostitution and specifically the sex trafficking charge year. And I can't help but think about the broader social context that this trial is operating in and specifically like how we even got Here. So just as a reminder, Combs ex girlfriend Cassie Ventura filed a lawsuit in 2023 making these allegations against Combs. And she was doing so because of a New York law that was passed during the height of the MeToo movement. And this law, it was called the Adult Survivors act, and it gave people a one year window to file claims that otherwise would have been too to sue over. And so because of this law, she was able to bring forward this lawsuit. And that lawsuit broke open a lot of these allegations which people had not heard of before. It opened the floodgates to many more lawsuits. And then now we are here with a federal prosecution. So when I think of this trial and why it's happening, I can't help but think of the broader movement toward accountability that came in the MeToo movement. Helena, I don't know if you're thinking about this trial in that context, but what do you make of that? Is this trial happening because of MeToo?

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I don't think there's like, no question that it is. Right? But what becomes tricky, and I would love to hear, I know Anne has thoughts, is that it's almost MeToo has also become somewhat of a pejorative in a way.

[Elahe Izadi]

Explain that.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Like this idea that the MeToo movement is something that people have argued, like, oh, maybe we swung the pendulum too far that way, right? Or everything gets shoved into this me too bucket that might not be, quote, unquote, me too. What is Me too? You know, like, once I was in a conversation with someone, they're like, oh, he got me too'd. You know what I mean? It's like, literally, if you use it so much, it is like, what does it mean? And is it just anything? Is it just, you know, something that somebody might say to you in office that you didn't like? Or is it sexual crimes? You know, like, because encompasses, I think so much, it's almost hard for people to conceptualize. So then they start to frivolize it.

[Elahe Izadi]

So let me ask you this, Helena. Do you think we're in a moment actually now, like, this trial is happening in some ways because of the reforms of the MeToo movement, like actual policy that was passed. But what is the status of the MeToo era right now?

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

I could not tell you, right? Honestly, like, what is the status of the MeToo era right now? There was a point where all of Hollywood, there was nothing that they were. They wouldn't talk about. Now, who's at the forefront of that movement at this point? Right?

[Elahe Izadi]

Like, is there a backlash to it right now?

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

I don't know if there's a backlash to it. I don't know if. Or was there a fatigue? And I'm not saying for me personally, I'm just saying, culturally, is there some type of fatigue? But to say that this is a MITRI trial, of course, I would absolutely say it is, but that doesn't mean that folks still understand sexual assault, sexual harassment, and any of those things in the type of context that they should. Right. Because I think when it comes to the trial, especially because the defense's huge argument is that all this was consensual.

[Anne Brannigan]

That's exactly right. Yeah. And I'm so, so glad that you mentioned me, too, as a verb, because that's something I've been thinking about, too. And the interesting thing that happens, I agree with you, it's used in this pejorative way that's a bit diminishing. Also, what happens when you use MeToo as a verb is it takes the substance of what's actually being alleged out of it. Right. And it lumps everybody under this umbrella of accusation. And to your point, I do agree that there's fatigue and backlash. And one of the ways that we measure how we as a society are feeling about these things is actually through these celebrity trials. So, coincidentally, you know, the Weinstein verdict could be seen as an indicator of that, too. Right. This is a retrial of, you know, this figure, Harvey Weinstein, who, you know, I think is a pivotal figure in the MeToo movement because he was the one who was accused by many people, including quite a few famous people, of sexual assault or sexual impropriety. Right. He was recently tried in New York, not very far from where this trial is happening, and retried. Right, exactly. Yes. Retried thing. Thank you. V tried for three counts affecting three different people, and he was only found guilty on one. The other one, he was acquitted, and it was a mistrial on the third. And so I think that definitely reflects a lot of, if not ambivalence than just a lot of sort of confusion and sort of conflicting messages about where we are.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Yeah.

[Elahe Izadi]

So are both of you viewing in some ways, not only the way this trial plays out, like, outside the courtroom, but also the eventual verdict, if there is one. You never know. Sometimes there's a hung jury. The outcome. The outcome of this trial as one important data point to assess where we are at when it comes to the MeToo movement and everything it brought up.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

I think it's definitely a barometer. I don't think we can say, like, okay, if it swings one way or another, then it's like, oh, here's where we are when it comes to the MeToo movement. But I think it's definitely a barometer of how you talked about the court of public opinion, specifically how people are going to view where we are as a culture in that conversation. Because when it comes to why I brought up the whole thing of consent is that this trial and what he's accused of has brought up so many conversations between adults. Right. You know, people who would consider themselves evolved about what is consent and what isn't, and is this person being forced to do something, or are they not? And how do you define that? And they are very tricky questions because I believe there are a certain subset of us. I keep mentioning my age because, you know, I am a grown up. Right. And have seen how things have evolved in the way that we talk about consent. Right. It was a point where things were, like, extremely black and white, then they became kind of gray, and then people don't know where they're supposed to stand. You know, when I was in high school, we were still saying things like date rape. You know, like, no one says that now. Right. And I think that as these conversations evolve and we see them on a grand scale involving very famous people, everyone has to rethink how they think about these things and how they were taught these things.

[Anne Brannigan]

Helena, 100%. With you on the barometer, I was thinking about this as, like, it is a temperature check in a lot of ways. And to the. To the point of consent. I think if you're talking about gray, we're talking about the grayest of the gray with this trial, because we're talking about, you know, things that happened after. Over the course of relationships, one of which was over 10 years. Right. And so you have this jury of 12 people, eight of whom are men, who will have to consider, you know, questions such as, you know, what does it mean to consent to one act but not to another? What does it mean to consent to sexual talk but not the actual sex act that you're describing in that talk?

[Elahe Izadi]

Hmm.

[Anne Brannigan]

You know, what does this look like if your alleged victim of sex trafficking is somebody who is being coerced by designer bad or trips to Turks and Caicos? Right. How does all of that fit into our kind of notions of what sex trafficking looks like?

[Elahe Izadi]

Mm, it's fascinating. You know, even before this trial started, Combs team was trying to make this argument in public that race was a big factor in why and how he was being tried, that essentially Sean Combs was being treated unfairly because he is a black man. And that white men have engaged in this sort of behavior and are not facing the same sort of consequences or treatment. Helena, that seems like a familiar argument in high profile cases like this. I don't know if that's something that you are paying attention to.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Yes, absolutely. Because obviously, you know, we're talking about O.J. or Bill.

[Elahe Izadi]

O.J. simpson.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

O.J. simpson, Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, you know, black male, powerful figures, icons, not just in the black community, but in the American cultural landscape who've come afoul of the law. And obviously, as black people, people of color in this country, there is a distrust of the legal institutions. Right. There is a distrust of the system because we know it was not designed for minorities. Right. It was designed to oppress in a lot of ways. So immediately, I think the knee jerk reaction is to think like, oh, no, no, no, they didn't do this, or they're trying to be, you know, railroaded, or, you know, what did Clarence Thomas say is the high tech lynching?

[Elahe Izadi]

Yeah. And that's referencing the Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, who during his confirmation hearings was facing allegations of sexual harassment by Anita Hill.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Yes, exactly. And you have people who are like, oh, of course, because they want to support.

[Elahe Izadi]

They want to support Combs, who. They have sort of personal relationship through his music.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Exactly. Not only that, you want to support someone who you think one you have this parasocial attachment to. Again, that's thinking that, you know, a celebrity, even though you do not. And the idea, I mean, this is someone who also achieved the American dream, Right. Someone who didn't come from a lot of money, who wasn't wealthy, didn't have generational wealth, any of that, and then like rose to the highest ranks of almost every industry he touched. Right. And then you think, of course, somebody wants to drag that person down, especially if that person is a black man in America. And then it goes back to the man act. Right. Specifically, they were using Jack Johnson as this example. You know, the first black heavyweight world champion boxing champion was arrested in 1912 under the Mann act for being with a white woman who he would eventually marry not long after.

[Anne Brannigan]

Right. So the man act, it applies in this case because when we talk about transportation to engage in prostitution, that is the Mann act, like those things are the same thing. You know, that's the kind of charge that we're talking about. Now. Historically, it's been applied in racist ways. I think objectively, we can say that consider the fact that the Mann act was also known as white slave traffic Act. So that that gives away the game that shows just how racialized these laws were. And I think that that origin still, you know, hangs above the application of it.

[Elahe Izadi]

But when we're talking about these other high profile men, I think one of the things that came up, at least when we were looking at R. Kelly and the accusations that were levied against him, and then also the eventual trial and prosecution and conviction that he faced was that his victims were not just black women, but black girls. And that it's not. When we're talking about race, there's the race element, but there's also the race and gender and how it gets really messy from there, too.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Yeah.

[Elahe Izadi]

And inside the courtroom, I know we haven't gotten to the part of the trial where the defense is now fully able to present its case, but in their cross examination, how have they hinted at, either implicitly or they've been very explicit that they believe Combs is facing unfair treatment because he's a black man.

[Anne Brannigan]

So they were very upfront about this before we went to trial. But they have not been using it as a defense strategy during the trial, I think for probably a number of reasons, like they're not saying it in court, they're happy to say it out of court or imply it in a lot of ways.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Hmm.

[Anne Brannigan]

So the way that race shows, I mean, it showed up from the very beginning. It shows up even as you just sort of look at the trial. You see Combs with his defense team of eight plus lawyers. And it's a pretty diverse team. Then you have the prosecution, which is mostly comprised of white women. The judge actually had to rebuke the defense at one point because Combs, longtime legal advisor Mark Garagos went on a TMZ podcast and referred to them as a six pack of white women.

[Elahe Izadi]

Oh, yes. Early on in this, I remember this.

[Anne Brannigan]

Yes. And the judge had to be like, no, you cannot do that. So it's, you know, from very early on, I think it's played this role. Right. We saw it happen again this past week. Cause we saw a juror dismissed. Right. This juror was giving different answers about a very basic question, which is where he lives and with whom. And over the course of the trial, like from jury selection until now, he had given a few different variations of this answer that couldn't all be true at the same time. And also, according to the judge, kind of gave the impression that he was, quote, you know, shading his Answers to try to stay on the jury. Now, that's a big red flag. You do not want the juror who's angling to stay on the jury that, you know, it suggests bias there. Right. And so that's the reason why the judge decides that he's going to dismiss this juror. But the defense pushed back a lot on this because it was a black male juror, and they accused the government at one point of a very thinly veiled attempt to try to get rid of a black juror, but at the same time, also acknowledging that this is one of the most diverse juries they've ever seen.

[Elahe Izadi]

Interesting. Well, yeah. And, you know, it sounds like the defense is limited in its ability to be explicit about race inside of the courtroom, but this conversation about race is definitely a big thing happening outside of the courtroom.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Mm.

[Elahe Izadi]

So this trial has gone on for many weeks, and now the government is expected to wrap up its case very soon. What are you both expecting to see or what else are you looking out for? Let's start with you, Ann.

[Anne Brannigan]

So something that came out this week is that the defense might not take a long time to call witnesses forward at all. They estimated, I think, between two and five days. If it's on the two side of that, that's pretty incredible because I think it might suggest that they feel pretty confident about their ability to introduce doubt here. Because, remember, the defense doesn't have to prove anything. The prosecution has the burden of proof. The defense only needs to introduce a reasonable doubt. Hmm.

[Elahe Izadi]

Helena.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

For me, it's funny because I've been going down, like, just deep rabbit holes on what Sean Combs has been doing over the last, like, five years? And just the cynic in me has just been like, has this been just, like, a long campaign to, like, sort of, like, endear himself and reinvent himself? Like when he. When he changed his name to Love the Love album. There's actually a song on this album, he talks about his soul kind of being messed up and how he's trying to, like, heal himself. The whole thing with the self help books, apparently, that he has with him that people have spotted. And Anne would know about this in the courtroom. I think, as an observer, I feel like the defense is going to try to paint him as someone who absolutely did some things right, some bad things, but that, one, those things weren't illegal, and two, he's trying to be better. And I think he's sort of been showing that outside the courtroom even before any of this came to light.

[Elahe Izadi]

Mm. Well, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you both so much for taking the time and having this conversation with me.

[Helena Andrews Dyer]

Thank you.

[Anne Brannigan]

Thank you. It was great to hear you, Helena.

[Elahe Izadi]

Helena Andrews Dyer is a culture reporter for the Post. Anne Brannigan is a style reporter. Today's episode was produced by Sabi Robinson and mixed by Rennie Srinofsky. It was edited by Rena Flores. Thanks to Carla Spartos. Our team includes Maggie Penman, Ted Muldoon, Alana Gordon, Ariel Plotnick, Emma Taukoff, Shawn Carter, Peter Bresnan, Laura Benshoff, Renita Jablonski, Colby Ikowicz and Martine Powers. Our intern is Tadeo Ruiz Sandoval. I'm Elahe Izadi. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

[F]

I'm Sally Jenkins and I'm a sports columnist and feature writer for the Washington Post. My job entails pulling the curtain on really big sports events at what is going on in locker rooms? What's going on in the stadium tunnel? Most importantly, what's going on in the minds of the athletes that I cover. I think that we have an instinct that sports are really important in some primal way. We pay a lot of money for them, we build really big stadiums for them. And I think that athletics really gets us in touch with aspiration and teach something very, very important about accountability, about self determination. And so my job is to really make those links Explore Explicit for readers and users, Subscriptions support this work and the people behind it. Find out more at subscribe washingtonpost.com I'm Sally Jenkins and I'm one of the people behind the Post.