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The law firms cutting deals with Trump
00:19:23
In response to threatening executive orders, some law firms are pledging hundreds of millions of dollars in free legal services to causes supported by the Trump administration. Others are fighting back.
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- [00:03]
Laura Benchoff
Since returning to office, President Donald Trump has tried to get back at those who he believes have wronged him. And that includes some of the country's most prominent law firms.
- [00:14]
Mark Berman
Donald Trump is ramping up his assault on big law with the president issue. Trump has signed more than 100 executive orders. And in some of those orders, Trump is targeting law firms directly tied to prosecutors involved in cases that have been against him.
- [00:28]
Laura Benchoff
To get back on his good side, some law firms are now pledging to do free work for causes supported by the Trump administration. And as of late last week, the law firms Trump has pressured have promised him nearly a billion dollars in legal services.
- [00:44]
Colby Itkowicz
Have you noticed that lots of law firms have been signing up with Trump? $100 million. Another hundred million dollars for damages that they've done.
- [01:00]
Laura Benchoff
From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm your guest host, Laura Benchoff. It's Wednesday, April 16th. Today, Trump's attacks on big law, law enforcement and criminal justice. Reporter Mark Berman explains how Trump is using the power of the presidency to muzzle private law firms and why many lawyers say that undermines the country's entire justice system. Mark spoke with my colleague Colby at Kuwits. I'll let them take it from here.
- [01:36]
Unnamed Interviewer
Hey, Mark.
- [01:37]
Mark Berman
Hi. How's it going?
- [01:38]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah, thanks for being here. Good.
- [01:39]
Mark Berman
Thank you.
- [01:40]
Unnamed Interviewer
So, Mark, I really want to dig in on what's happening with law firms and the Trump administration. What is Trump doing exactly to attack and undermine law firms in this country?
- [01:49]
Mark Berman
Well, the president started issuing executive orders in February, hammering a lot of these law firms with big punishments. So far, the Trump administration has targeted several of the country's most prominent high profile law firms. We're talking about big international law firms, firms that represent companies and people and often challenge the government. So these are big, powerful firms that do work in and around Washington as well as other major cities around the country and the globe. So the way Trump has done this is he's targeted individual law firms. Each gets their own executive order. And it'll say the title will be something like addressing risks posed by, let's say, the firm Wilmer Hale. And then Trump will break down the things that he wants the executive branch to do. So he'll order the executive branch to strip them of their government contracts. He'll say that they should lose security clearances. He'll say that they should not be allowed to enter government buildings. He'll also say that the employees should not be hired for government jobs. He is essentially ordering the executive branch to ice out these firms.
- [02:51]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay, so these executive orders, they strip these law firms of their ability to access the federal government. I mean, we're talking about basic things like going into the federal buildings where they need to do business. I can imagine this is quite disruptive, but can you just break down why this is such a big deal to these law firms?
- [03:10]
Mark Berman
So there's two elements of this. One is that for some lawyers, the. Their day to day job is talking to government officials. They're trying to negotiate settlements, they're trying to represent their clients before regulatory issues. They're trying to advise them on corporate deals. But these deals need government approval. And in all of these cases, losing access to the government can be catastrophic.
- [03:29]
Unnamed Interviewer
They say, I see. And the lawyers wouldn't even be able to go into, like, federal court buildings.
- [03:33]
Mark Berman
That's what some of them say is their understanding. And there's a couple of different ways that this affects firms. Yeah, some firms are very reliant on a particular number of attorneys who bring in a lot of money. They have a really high value client. They have a really high value couple of clients. Right. Who account for a large share of their revenue. So if a firm is getting targeted and is in a long fight with the Trump administration, that lawyer or that client might say, we don't want to wait this out. We're just going to move our business to another firm. So if a lawyer feels like they can just move from one firm to another and bring their client, it can just carve into a firm's revenue. So firms are terrified of that.
- [04:07]
Unnamed Interviewer
What rationales is he giving for targeting these law firms?
- [04:11]
Colby Itkowicz
We're going to.
- [04:12]
Mark Berman
Yes, sir.
- [04:13]
Colby Itkowicz
Sign some executive orders.
- [04:16]
Mark Berman
When Trump is issuing these orders, he's accusing these firms of wrongdoing. He says they threaten public safety and national security. He says they undermine American principles. And he talks about how these firms, in his view, are what he says are committing obvious partisan representations.
- [04:31]
Colby Itkowicz
This is an absolute honor to sign. What they've done is just terrible. It's weaponization, you could say weaponization against a political opponent, and it should never be allowed to happen again.
- [04:50]
Mark Berman
In his view. Some of the things that they have done, some of the cases they've taken up or the people they've hired are, in his view, too partisan and unfair and acting improperly. But the law firms say they're being punished simply for representing people and causes that Trump opposes, and they say he's simply retaliating against them.
- [05:05]
Unnamed Interviewer
Are there specific examples of law firms that Trump has targeted because he didn't like who they hired or who they.
- [05:13]
Mark Berman
Represented, some of the firms that Trump has targeted. He's been very clear that not only does he accuse the firms of wrongdoing, he has outright stated that they have connections to his perceived foes. So when he issued an executive order targeting the law firm Wilmer Hale, he noted that Wilmer Hale had welcomed Robert Mueller, the former special counsel who investigated Trump during his first term, and also hired two of his deputies. When Trump targeted the firm Jenner and Block, he noted that the firm had hired Andrew Weissman, who was also a deputy to Robert Mueller. Now, the firms point out Robert Mueller and Andrew Weissman left those places four years ago. But even though those ties are no longer active, Trump still singled them out when he targeted the firms.
- [05:51]
Unnamed Interviewer
So he's targeting these firms because they hired people that had investigated him in his last administration and singling them out for that.
- [06:00]
Mark Berman
Yeah.
- [06:05]
Unnamed Interviewer
And so what options do these law firms have here?
- [06:09]
Mark Berman
Yeah, I mean, when the President started issuing his orders, it looked as if firms essentially had two choices. One choice was to fight to go to court to sue. The other choice was to just eat the punishment. But firms have said these punishments can be catastrophic. Some of these firms have said they would not be able to survive if the punishments were in place. And then pretty soon, it became apparent there was a third option, which is cut a deal, which is what the firm Paul Weiss did. And Paul Weiss, Brad Karp, who was, I believe, the chairman of Paul Weiss, the firm essentially said we would not survive a long fight with the Trump administration. They said that, for one thing, when they started getting targeted, that other firms started coming to try to poach their clients and their lawyers. Some other firms, including firms that have not been targeted with executive orders, have instead cut deals. They've reached deals to promise up to $125 million in free pro bono legal services for causes that Trump and his administration.
- [07:00]
Unnamed Interviewer
So we're going to talk about the law firms that are fighting these executive orders later. But first, let's dig in on the deal cutting that you just mentioned. You say these law firms have promised to provide free legal work. What kind of issues would that work cover?
- [07:14]
Mark Berman
Combating antisemitism, helping veterans, things of that nature.
- [07:18]
Unnamed Interviewer
So these big law firms are effectively offering pro bono work. As I understand it, pro bono work is usually reserved for people that can't afford an attorney. So explain a little bit how pro bono, the type of clients that typically get pro bono work and how this is different.
- [07:34]
Mark Berman
Pro bono work is often used to help vulnerable populations who need legal representation. And Big law firms take a lot of pride in their pro bono work. They dedicate a chunk of their time to trying to help out people in those circumstances. One of the firms that was targeted by the president, Jenner and Block, said in one of its court filings that last year its lawyers spent nearly 91,000 combined hours doing pro bono legal work with which they said was the causes included helping victims of sex trafficking and domestic violence, advocating for veterans, and helping people denied Social Security benefits. But what lawyers say they're worried about is if these firms are taking on this pro bono work for these causes the Trump administration wants them to do instead. There's only so many hours in the year, so they said those attorneys are gonna be doing that at the expense of this other work. One thing we don't know yet is exactly how this is gonna play out. We don't know exactly to what degree what cases will be picked up, what will not. The firms that have made these deals have said the President, the White House is not telling us what cases we can or can't pick up. No one's going to dictate that except for us. And they've also said they're not going to force their lawyers to take up cases they don't want to take up. But that comes with a big but, which is people in the industry are worried that even if the firms say that, even if the firms say nobody's going to tell us what we can and can't take up, people across the industry feel like if a firm makes a deal with the president, they're not going to take up a case or a cause that he would oppose.
- [08:57]
Unnamed Interviewer
Mark, I know that you, you've actually spoken to attorneys that work at some of these law firms that have cut.
- [09:01]
Mark Berman
These deals that currently or formerly have worked at some of these firms. Yeah.
- [09:04]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay. And what do they say about the fact that one, Trump is targeting big law, but two, that their bosses, either current or former, are taking this extraordinary step of. Of cutting this deal with the White House?
- [09:19]
Mark Berman
There are some lawyers who say they do feel sympathy for the lawyers who have to make these decisions. They say they know they're big firms with a lot of people on the payroll, and they know there's a lot of factors involved. But a lot of the attorneys I've spoken to are very, very unhappy about the firm's cutting deals.
- [09:37]
Laura Benchoff
After the break, Colby and Mark take a look at firms that decided to fight. We'll be right back.
- [09:44]
Mark Berman
Foreign.
- [09:55]
Carol Lennig
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- [10:55]
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- [11:44]
Unnamed Interviewer
So, Mark, there's all these law firms that are coughing up millions of dollars to cut these deals with Trump. But like you said, there's also other law firms that are taking a different approach. Talk to me about them and how they're fighting back.
- [11:56]
Mark Berman
Since Trump started issuing executive orders in February, four different law firms have sued to fight his orders. Those firms are Perkins, Coie, Wilmer, Hale, Jenner, and Block, and most recently, Sussman, Godfrey. And in all four of those cases, the firms filed lawsuits in Washington, D.C. and judges almost immediately granted them some relief. They said, we're going to block most of these orders while you're challenging them. And the judges have all, in various ways, said that these orders deeply concerned them, describing them as shocking. One judge said that orders sent a chill down her spine. And these firms have called these orders unconstitutional. And firms are now seeking to get Trump's orders blocked permanently.
- [12:29]
Unnamed Interviewer
But are they the exception or the rule? These four law firms, the firms that.
- [12:33]
Mark Berman
Are fighting, are the exception. I mean, we've had nine law firms cut deals with the administration where they've promised almost a billion dollars in combined pro bono money towards legal services. However, the legal industry is split on what to do. Lawyers are not sure if they should fight or if they should make deals. Perkins was the first one to file a lawsuit challenging their order. And there was a filing recently where more than 500 law firms around the country filed to support. They chimed in. They. They criticized the executive orders. Overall, they supported Perkins. What was notable, though, was that that filing was not signed by any of the 20 largest law firms in the country by revenue, some of which later cut deals with the administration.
- [13:10]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, that's interesting. So we're talking, like, smaller law firms scattered around the country, as well as.
- [13:15]
Mark Berman
Some of the larger ones.
- [13:16]
Unnamed Interviewer
Not the largest, not the largest, but some large ones. What could happen with these lawsuits? Do we know if what Trump's doing is even legal?
- [13:28]
Mark Berman
So the question of whether he can do it is ultimately only going to be answered by the courts. The firms that have challenged have found success in the court so far. Judges have blocked most of his punishments. But attorneys I talk to expect that one of these challenges, if not all of them, will make their way to the Supreme Court. And at least one of the firms that has sued to challenge it seems to be preparing for the case to make its way to the Supreme Court. Wilmer Hale, the firm that used to employ Robert Mueller, hired Paul Clement, who was a noted Supreme Court litigator, to. To represent them in their case. And attorneys I spoke to said that they're expecting this case to make it to the Supreme Court. That's why they hired Paul Clement.
- [14:00]
Unnamed Interviewer
I mean, bigger picture here. What is at stake for the legal profession if President Trump continues these attacks on big law?
- [14:12]
Mark Berman
Attorneys across the industry say that there is a lot at stake here. The law firms that have cut deals have said they had to do it to keep their firms in business, to keep their firms active. But there are people in the industry who say that the issues here are broader than just one law firm's record revenue or whether they stay in business? They say it's about the legal system of this country. Right. These are people who say if the administration is able to put pressure on law firms and dictate who they can represent, what causes they can or can't take up, they say that weakens the system for everybody else. They say the president going after law firms specifically because he doesn't like who they've represented before or who they've hired before, it undermines the entire idea that everyone should be able to pick the attorney of their choice, that the attorney should be able to represent them as zealously as they can, even against the government.
- [14:54]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah. I mean, is there a sense that there'll be a chilling effect, that even if there's some law firms that haven't cut deals with the Trump administration that they might be reluctant to take on a case, to take on a client who's adversarial to the Trump administration.
- [15:07]
Mark Berman
There's a big fear of that. And our colleague Michael Birnbaum has reported that there are Biden era officials who cannot find representation right now. One former official in Biden's administration, who is being pulled into litigation in this era and needs a lawyer, said that they initially had a pro bono lawyer from a major law firm. And the day after the president targeted the firm, Perk Perkins Coey, the attorney, said that the firm discovered a conflict of interest and dropped this person as a client. Five other firms also said they couldn't represent this person due to conflicts.
- [15:34]
Unnamed Interviewer
Wow. So that person now can't find an attorney.
- [15:37]
Mark Berman
That's right.
- [15:38]
Unnamed Interviewer
Mark, I know that you said that a lot of lawyers are upset, particularly with the law firms that are cutting these deals with the president. They're upset. Maybe they're voicing that. Are they doing anything else about it?
- [15:49]
Mark Berman
Several attorneys at a number of the law firms that cut deals have quit in protest. Some of them have written public letters explaining why they're quitting and why they're leaving their firms. They've criticized their bosses for making these deals. And there are a number of other attorneys at other firms that have debated quitting as well.
- [16:03]
Unnamed Interviewer
Hmm. And so they're saying, like, on principle, I can't work for a law firm who would cut a deal like this.
- [16:10]
Mark Berman
With the president rather than fight.
- [16:12]
Unnamed Interviewer
And there was one associate who spoke to msnbc, Rachel Cohen. She had quit her job at the firm Skadden Arps when it became clear they were going to make a deal with the Trump administration. And here's what she had to say about what's going on.
- [16:24]
Laura Benchoff
We're reaching a point where there's been a lot of correct attention on attacks.
- [16:28]
Unnamed Interviewer
On judges, but the attacks on lawyers are to prevent us from even needing.
- [16:32]
Laura Benchoff
To get there at all.
- [16:33]
Unnamed Interviewer
If there's no lawyers to bring the case, there's no justice system in the United States. Yeah, I mentioned your thoughts on that, Mark, because it's an interesting point that we've had Trump attacking judges and the judiciary for a long time, but this feels like a new escalation.
- [16:51]
Mark Berman
That's what people across the industry say. They feel like this is part of a broader campaign that the president and the administration is waging against the legal system. They say it has to be viewed in the context of the president and other officials. Are constantly criticizing judges who rule against him. You've also now got these efforts to target lawyers and law firms. The president also signed an executive order telling the attorney general and Homeland Security secretary to look into sanctioning lawyers that they feel like file frivolous challenges. All of which they say is meant to just chill any legal challenges that the administration could face.
- [17:28]
Unnamed Interviewer
Mark, I mean, how does this move by Trump, and he's made a lot of moves in his first three months in office, but kind of show his willingness to use the power of his presidency in new ways to get what he wants and perhaps punish his perceived adversaries?
- [17:46]
Mark Berman
I think one big difference we've seen between this administration and the last Trump administration is he seems very dead set in a lot of ways on getting retribution against his enemies. In his first administration, we had all these accounts where he wanted to fire this person or wanted that person prosecuted, and it didn't happen this time. It doesn't seem like he's waiting. It seems like he is finding the people and the places where he has issues with them or what they've done and is going after them.
- [18:09]
Unnamed Interviewer
Mark, I think there are probably many people listening to this and they're thinking, well, I'm not a lawyer at one of these big firms. I probably couldn't ever afford to have one of these lawyers. Why should I even care about this?
- [18:22]
Mark Berman
I mean, one way to look at this, and this is the way I've talked about this with friends of mine who've asked why I'm, why we've questioned covering this so much, because I've written like 10 stories about this in the last couple weeks. One way to look at this is the executive orders and the deals target some of the most prominent wealthy law firms in this country, where you have partners who can make $20 million a year, and they work in these beautiful glass offices across the country and in capitals across Europe, right? Lawyers who are mad about these deals and these orders say it's not just about these lawyers and these firms. They say that if these firms cut deals, if these firms are intimidated, if these firms can't pick and choose who to represent, that trickles down throughout the entire legal system. If the government is going after these big powerful firms, what would stop them from going after a smaller firm taking up the case of somebody fighting an immigration order, Something like that. They say that this trickles down and affects anybody in the system who needs legal representation when they might have to fight the government.
- [19:22]
Unnamed Interviewer
Mark, thank you so much for joining us.
- [19:25]
Mark Berman
Thank you.
- [19:28]
Laura Benchoff
Mark Berman, covers law enforcement and criminal justice for the Post. He spoke with my colleague Colby Itkowicz. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. If you love the show, help other people discover it by leaving a rating on Spotify or a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Today's show is mixed by Shawn Carter and edited by Lucy Perkins. Thanks also to Efrain Hernandez. I'm your guest host, Laura Benchoff. I also produced this episode. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.
- [20:14]
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