Trump is trying to use the shutdown to lay off workers

Summary

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Episode Summary: Trump is trying to use the shutdown to lay off workers

Podcast: Post Reports (The Washington Post)
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Colby Ekowitz
Guest: Hannah Natenson (Federal government reporter), with quotes from union leader Miles Batson

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Overview

This episode examines the escalating effects of the third week of a government shutdown, focusing on President Trump's use of the crisis to implement mass layoffs within federal agencies. Washington Post reporter Hannah Natenson details the targeted nature of these cuts, the criteria behind them, their immediate and ripple effects, and the controversial legal and economic implications. The episode explores both the human cost for federal workers and the political motivations underpinning the administration’s actions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Shutdown’s Expanding Impact (00:02 – 02:25)

• Primary Effects: Flight delays, shuttered national parks, IRS helpline closures, stalled EPA/Transportation permitting, and missed paychecks.
• Wider Fallout: Food banks and community services, already weakened by previous cuts, are facing surges in demand.
• Quote:
  “We're now seeing the shutdown reverberate out...food banks and community services...were already hurting because Trump had slashed away federal food and funds for them earlier this year. They're starting to see increased strain, increased demand.”
  — Hannah Natenson [01:37]

2. The Layoff (RIF) Wave: Who Is Affected and Why (02:25 – 04:09)

• Initial Scope: 4,000+ federal workers laid off from agencies such as Commerce, Education, Energy, HHS, HUD.
• Target Criteria: Targeted offices have a shared mission—serving vulnerable populations, e.g., hazardous waste regulation, federal housing inspection, aid to students with disabilities.
• Administration’s Framing: Trump characterizes these as “Democrat programs,” claiming to be removing positions lobbied for by Democrats.
• Quote:
  “He’s sort of pitching this as a way to harm the political left...current and former [officials]...were warning that the people this is actually going to hurt is the elderly, schoolchildren, adults with disabilities.”
  — Hannah Natenson [04:46]

3. Misfires and Unintended Consequences (06:10 – 07:03)

• Republican Program Cuts: Some layoffs impacted programs popular with Republicans, such as charter school initiatives.
• Reversed Layoffs: More than half the firing notices at CDC were rescinded after realizing crucial people (e.g., measles/Ebola response) had been axed.
• Quote:
  “They actually reversed more than half of the firing notices...because pretty clearly, it seems like they didn’t realize they had cut the people who were leading the measles response and the response to an Ebola outbreak.”
  — Hannah Natenson [06:38]

4. Worker Experience: Stress, Uncertainty, and Unexpected Relief (07:03 – 10:40)

• Notification Chaos: Some employees learned of their layoffs via news or colleagues, not official channels, due to conflicting instructions about checking emails during furlough.
• Emotional Fallout: Widespread anxiety, diminished belief in job stability, but also a sense of relief among some after finally being severed from administrative chaos.
• Quote:
  “Shutdowns were already stressful...Now, if you add on the fact that, oh, if what I do for the agency is not looked upon fondly by this administration...that threat affects people in a much stronger way than any shutdown has ever previously.”
  — Miles Batson [08:24]
• Quote:
  “Hannah, I'm finally done. He doesn’t have any power over me anymore...there’s just less chaos and uncertainty in my life now that I don’t have [a government job].”
  — Paraphrased by Hannah Natenson [10:25]

5. Legality of Layoffs During Shutdown (13:12 – 15:48)

• Legal Challenge: Trump admin’s justification that layoffs are necessitated by lack of funding is not grounded in law or shutdown procedure.
• Anti-Deficiency Act: Prohibits the government from obliging funds during a funding lapse, likely making RIFs illegal as they entail severance obligations.
• Court Action: Federal unions sued; a judge has blocked further firings during the shutdown.
• Quote:
  “That is just not true. That is not how shutdowns work...The shutdown has nothing to do with firings...In fact, the reverse is likely true.”
  — Hannah Natenson [13:53]

6. Chaos and Uncertainty in Federal Agencies (15:48 – 16:49)

• Rehiring and Unfiring: Agencies have fired, unfired, and sometimes re-fired employees; overall situation is described as “chaos.”
• Future Layoff Scale: Initial plans call for up to 16,000 layoffs, suggesting the current cuts (4,000) are only the beginning.

7. Economic Fallout (17:15 – 18:57)

• Broader Impact: The missed paychecks for 2.1 million federal workers are a drag on local economies; the total impact won't be clear due to a pause in BLS employment reports.
• Historical Comparison: The 34-day shutdown under Trump previously cost $11 billion in economic output.

8. Threats to Back Pay and Ongoing Hardship (18:57 – 19:59)

• Back Pay Law: Trump himself signed a 2019 law mandating back pay for furloughed workers, but recent administration memos question if it’s required.
• Worker Hardship: Federal workers turning to food banks as economic pressure ramps up.
• Quote:
  “Trump signed a law in 2019 making it required by law...There was a memo circulated that seemed to be saying, no, we don’t actually have to give furloughed federal workers back pay...Which legal experts I’ve talked to were like, no, that's blatantly misunderstanding the basic text of the law.”
  — Hannah Natenson [19:18]

9. Prospects for Ending the Shutdown (19:59 – 20:44)

• Outlook: Negotiations are stagnant, and the consensus among Congressional reporters is that the shutdown could become the longest in U.S. history.
• Quote:
  “Economy bad, state of negotiations bad. Nobody’s talking to anybody. And it seems like we might be on track for the longest shutdown in history.”
  — Hannah Natenson [20:25]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump’s Framing:
  "Laying off people that the Democrats wanted that in many cases were not appropriate...They started this thing, so they should be Democrat oriented."
  — President Trump quoted by Miles Batson and Hannah Natenson [04:26–04:46]

• Union Leadership Perspective:
  “Shutdowns were already stressful...Now, if you add on the fact that...does that mean...we're going to get notices to RIF instead of just going without a paycheck...that threat affects people in a much stronger way than any shutdown has ever previously.”
  — Miles Batson, EPA union leader [08:24]

• Worker Resilience:
  “If something bad can happen at this point, I’m going to expect it to happen. I’ve lost any sense that there’s any stability in working for the federal government.”
  — Paraphrased by Hannah Natenson [07:29]

• Systemic Chaos:
  “They fire people, they unfire them, they refire them. I’ve talked to plenty of people who’ve been in that situation...It’s just chaos.”
  — Hannah Natenson [16:11]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:02 — Shutdown’s impact; ripple effects
• 02:25 — Federal layoffs start; who is hit
• 04:26 — Trump’s rationale and comments
• 06:10 — Misfires: unintended target programs, reversed layoffs
• 07:03 — Worker reaction; union perspective (Miles Batson)
• 10:40 — Transition to legal discussion (after break)
• 13:12 — Why layoffs are happening during shutdown
• 15:48 — Legal challenges; court order blocking firings
• 16:49 — Future scale of layoffs discussed
• 17:15 — Economic consequences and uncertainty
• 18:57 — Back pay legal controversy and hardship
• 19:59 — Outlook: negotiations and end of shutdown

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The episode is sober, urgent, and deeply empathetic to the real-life disruptions facing federal workers and vulnerable Americans. The reportage is clear-eyed about the political maneuvering behind Trump’s actions, skeptical of administration justifications, and attentive to the cascading legal and economic crises that may just be beginning.

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Useful for listeners who want:

• A comprehensive overview of the Trump administration’s strategy behind the shutdown layoffs
• Firsthand testimony from affected workers and union reps
• Legal context and the status of court challenges
• An early look at the wider economic fallout
• A summary of the human and operational chaos within shuttered federal agencies

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Transcript

[Colby Ekowitz]

We are in the third week of the government shutdown. It is already having real impact. It's caused flight delays, shuttered national parks. Federal workers aren't getting paid. And some of those workers got even more bad news over the weekend.

[Hannah Natenson]

My phone began exploding with messages from folks across agencies saying they'd been riffed or colleagues had been riffed. Riffed is the federal form of a layoff.

[Colby Ekowitz]

Since the beginning of this administration, Hannah Natenson has covered President Trump's efforts to shrink the federal government. She says Trump is using the shutdown now to cut even more targeting, quote, Democrat programs.

[Hannah Natenson]

And it sort of emerged ultimately that Trump had targeted different offices, but many of which shared a similar mission, which was to help the nation's most vulnerable populations.

[Colby Ekowitz]

And the effects of those cuts could extend well beyond this shutdown. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Colby ekowitz. It's Wednesday, October 15th. The federal government has been shut down for 15 days. Today, Hannah shares her reporting on the impact of that and how Trump is using this shutdown to further slash the government. Hannah, thank you so much for joining me.

[Hannah Natenson]

Thank you for having me.

[Colby Ekowitz]

So before we get into these layoffs, let's start with kind of where the shutdown is right now. What effects are we starting to see as the shutdown enters its third week?

[Hannah Natenson]

So we are starting to see this go beyond federal workers who were already affected, of course, by either not having to work or, or they're being forced to work without pay. Their missed paychecks are starting to hit. We're now seeing the shutdown reverberate out, though. So it's closed taxpayer helplines at the Eternal Revenue Service. It's snarling permitting approvals at the EPA and the Transportation Department. It's shutting off access to national parks. And you're starting to see food banks and community services across the nation, many of which were already hurting because Trump had slashed away federal food and funds for them earlier this year. They're starting to see increased strain, increased demand.

[Colby Ekowitz]

And then we saw, as you mentioned, people start losing their jobs. Who exactly in the federal government is losing their jobs right now, Hannah?

[Hannah Natenson]

So it looks like more layoffs could be coming. So that answer will probably change in the next couple of days. But I can tell you what's happened so far. So on Friday, and we know the extent of this because there's lawsuit already about these firings, and a judge ordered the administration to say exactly what it was doing. So we know from the administration itself that the firings hit slightly more than 4,000 employees across agencies including Commerce, Education, Energy, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development. But what you know, was not in the government's filing, which emerged over conversations that I've been having with more than 70 federal workers, current and former, in the days since these firings hit, is that what these layoffs overwhelmingly targeted were offices that are devoted to things that Trump doesn't see as a priority, that he's calling the things that Democrats want, elements of the government that try to aid America's most vulnerable or most at risk populations. Among the offices that were cut was a unit of employees who help regulate hazardous waste, inspectors who check the quality of federal housing, an office that makes sure students with disabilities get the help they need. It's sort of this vision. It's this pure essence of Trump's vision of what government should be, which is really focused on immigration, defense and law enforcement. And he's trimming away yet again, all these other things that many in this country have come to depend on.

[Colby Ekowitz]

All these social services type programs.

[Hannah Natenson]

Exactly.

[Colby Ekowitz]

And he's calling them, we heard him call them Democrat oriented. So he specifically, it sounds like, thinks that these are Democrats priorities.

[Hannah Natenson]

That's what he says. I mean, he told reporters in the Oval Office on Friday that he was.

[Miles Batson]

Laying off people that the Democrats wanted that in many cases were not appropriate.

[Hannah Natenson]

We fought them, quote, people that the Democrats wanted, because we figure, you know.

[Miles Batson]

They started this thing, so they should be Democrat oriented. It'll be a lot, and we'll announce the numbers over the next couple of days, but it'll be a lot of people, all because of the Democrats. I mean, they want to give.

[Hannah Natenson]

He's sort of pitching this as a way to harm the political left. You know, in interviews, though, you know that I've spent all weekend having federal officials, current and former, of many different political persuasions were warning that the people this is actually going to hurt is the elderly, schoolchildren, adults with disabilities. And some were even pointing out that some of the programs that Trump is cutting actually seem to dovetail with Republican goals as they are traditionally viewed. So, for example, I talking a lot to someone at the Education Department who received notice, and the office that this person worked in ran a program that distributed federal funds, guidance and technical assistance to states so they could help students and adults with disabilities gain skills to get jobs and get off benefits. That was the whole point. And she was pointing out to me, I don't understand why the Republicans are cutting this. They're all about that. They're all about, let's get people off benefits and make them work. So certainly I would say the president is painting with a broad brush when he claims that what he's cutting is the left part of government.

[Colby Ekowitz]

We should also note, Hannah, that a lot of these programs you're talking about are not exclusively used by Democratic voters or Democratic constituents or blue states or blue cities. Like, I mean, a lot of red states use these services, depend on these services. Right?

[Hannah Natenson]

Correct. Oh, and I'll also note, like, another thing they cut at the Education Department is a part of that agency focused on charter school that was actually really hugely popular in red states with red politicians because charter schools is a big Republican priority. So, you know, I've had some federal workers who are pointing out that the way these firings rolled out, it seems like they were slicing off whole categories of employees or whole offices and just cut that without really investigating what they were cutting. And I will note that as my incredible health colleagues have been reporting, they actually reversed more than half of the firing notices they issued at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, because there pretty clearly, it seems like they didn't realize they had cut the people who were leading the measles response and the response to an Ebola outbreak, which are pretty crucial. People who have now been brought back. Yeah, yeah.

[Colby Ekowitz]

I mean, Hannah, we've had you on the show earlier this year to talk about how you've become a trusted resource for a lot of federal employees who have been affected by these changes since Trump took office. So, like you said, your phone was blowing up when these new cuts came around. How did these employees tell you? Like, how were they notified? Were they surprised?

[Hannah Natenson]

I mean, in some ways they were surprised. So some of the people who really felt that their work was essential and was prioritized by the Trump administration were still surprised. But a lot of people are just kind of, if something bad can happen at this point, I'm going to expect it to happen. I've lost any sense that there's any stability in working for the federal government.

[Miles Batson]

I wasn't surprised. I was saddened. I was frustrated. It's another wave of anxiety to try and deal with on our end. But surprised? No.

[Hannah Natenson]

One of the people I spoke with was Miles Batson, who worked for the EPA in Colorado. He spoke to me in his capacity as executive vice president of AFGE Council 238, which is. Which represents over 7,000 EPA employees around the country. He's currently still working during the shutdown, but as a union vice president, he's been Hearing a lot about how other federal employees are dealing with the layoffs.

[Miles Batson]

Shutdowns were already stressful when people had to go without a paycheck or try and figure out how to fill that gap. Now, if you add on the fact that, oh, if what I do for the agency is not looked upon fondly by this administration, does that mean that I'm not going to. That we're going to get notices to RIF instead of just going without a paycheck being brought back? You know, that threat affects people in a much stronger way than any shutdown has ever previously.

[Hannah Natenson]

The complicating thing here, right, is that there's a shutdown. So you're either working without pay or you're on furlough. And if you're on furlough, it's basically like taking a temporary pause on your job. Or as some feds put it to me, it's like an unpaid vacation. You might have gotten instructions not to be checking your government device. Even though, technically, the Trump administration did put out guidance, they actually specifically put out guidance, which doesn't normally happen. That said, please be assured that you should be checking your federal email even if you're on furlough. This shutdown, because you need to be able to know if you've been fired, they put that out there. But still, people from their direct managers going on the rules of past shutdowns were told not to check. So some people found out from the news or from social media or from their own signal chats with other federal employees. I had a lot of people at the Education Department in particular, who were messaging me all weekend. And it was sort of like, it started off going, oh, God, I hear they're cutting. And then, oh, no, they're cutting, Ed. And then, oh, no, I'm very sure I'm cut. I'm very sure I'm cut. Hannah, I can't look at it. I can't look at it. And I sort of got this running update, and by Monday, they finally looked, and it was just, you know, they're very sad. I mean, the weird thing is, they're sad. Of course, they're stressed about entering this job market, which is terrible, and they're sad to see their agency's mission and their work being dismantled. But even amidst all that, for some of them, there is still this little slice of relief. And why they're relieved is what they've been telling me, Hannah, I'm finally done. He doesn't have any power over me anymore. Like, there's just less chaos. And uncertainty in my life now that I don't have a.

[Colby Ekowitz]

After the break, I'll ask Hannah whether these layoffs are legal. We'll be right back.

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[Colby Ekowitz]

I mean, one thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me about this moment is that Trump was during, you know, the Doge cuts, the Department of Government efficiency cuts. He was already, you know, firing people and ending programs at will at the beginning of the year. So now why is the Trump administration say they're doing all these firings during a shutdown?

[Hannah Natenson]

Certainly the rhetoric that's coming out. He seems to be positioning these cuts as a way to inflict pain on the political left. He sees it as a bargaining tool, a way to take advantage of this opportunity to make the government more like what he wants and less like what the left wants. I will say any argument that they're putting forth about, oh, we need to do this because there's no funding anymore, or, oh, you know, to keep essential federal services going, we have to cut federal personnel. Totally false. That is just not true. That is not how shutdowns work. And there is no world in which firing federal workers is going to make it easier to keep providing federal services. The shutdown has nothing to do with firings. There is no part of the law that says, oh, the government shut down. You can fire people now. In fact, the reverse is likely true. There's something called the Anti Deficiency act, which says that the federal government, if there's a lapse in funding, cannot incur any obligations, like in terms of money or services that somehow represent a monetary value while the government remains shut down. That almost certainly, per legal experts I've talked to, would include conducting a rif. A RIF is a reduction in force, again, the federal form of layoffs. And like any layoff, it entails severance. That is a financial obligation. So when you're starting to undertake firings during a shutdown, you're probably in violation of the Anti Deficiency Act. And in fact, many of the largest federal unions actually have already sued over this. They sued even before terms firings began because, you know, they were talking a big game back then about, we're going to do these firings. And on Wednesday afternoon, a judge actually blocked the administration from conducting these firings during the shutdown, saying that the government had not even bothered to prepare an argument to explain why this was legal. There will likely be more twists and turns in this and more appeals, so we'll see what happens. But for now, the Trump administration is barred from doing any more firings.

[Colby Ekowitz]

You mentioned, Hannah, that the CDC specifically had to call people back because they had laid off a bunch of people that are responsible for, you know, making sure that diseases don't spread in this country. So is it possible that some of the other people who have lost their jobs in this will get called back maybe when the shutdown ends?

[Hannah Natenson]

I hesitate to predict the future in any way anymore. I mean, we've just seen so much. They fire people, they unfire them, they refire them. I've talked to plenty of people who've been in that situation. And then in some agencies, they've gone through all these firings and then realized they have too few people and been able to post for new jobs. It's just, it's chaos. And so my best answer for you is maybe to probably. We'll see.

[Colby Ekowitz]

So, Hannah, it's about 4,000 or so people so far. Do we have any sense of how many more could be laid off?

[Hannah Natenson]

What I can tell you about how many more are coming is based on reporting that me and Emily Davies did earlier this month, where, according to people familiar with the matter who've seen plans, we understand that the initial plans are about 16,000. So if that holds up and the Trump administration doesn't change its mind or the shutdown doesn't, and it seems like we're maybe about a quarter of the way through what they've planned to do.

[Colby Ekowitz]

Wow. I mean, you mentioned earlier, you know, how hard this job market is right now. So let's say you have another 16,000 people who have lost their jobs. You also have many, many people that are currently not getting a paycheck. What's the broader impact on the economy at a time of, you know, mounting economic uncertainty?

[Hannah Natenson]

Bad is what I hear from my colleagues who cover the economy. But, you know, it's interesting, though, one of the key statistics that will help us understand, and by us, I mean my colleagues who report on the economy, because me and economics don't get along very well. But what I'm sure they will understand and be able to explain lucidly to the public will be the job market numbers, which come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which is on pause because of the shutdown. So those key numbers which we're all waiting for, which will help us understand just how bad things have gotten, those probably won't come out till this shutdown is over. So we won't even understand fully how bad things are until that point. All I can say is, you know, that first wave of missed paychecks for federal workers, which are still 2.1 million people, even after all Trump's cuts all across the country, and that's going to hurt the underlying economy in many communities. And the longer that other services remain shut off and paychecks keep getting missed, the worse the effects of this will be. The last shutdown, the longest in history. 34 days shaved $11 billion off the country's economic output. So we'll see where this goes.

[Colby Ekowitz]

And, you know, I can't imagine for so many families how they will manage to pay their bills if a paycheck isn't coming in. And there's also question of whether or not they're gonna ever see that money. Right. There's threats of not giving them back pay, which has always been customary in shutdowns.

[Hannah Natenson]

Trump signed a law in 2019 making it required by law. He signed it because of his other shutdown, the 34, day one. It's his law. And yet he's now. There was a memo circulated that seemed to be saying, no, we don't actually have to give furloughed federal workers back pay. We could, but we don't have to. Which legal experts I've talked to were like, no, that's blatantly misunderstanding the basic text of the law. So we'll see if that plays out. So far, it seems potentially more hot air than anything else. But if that happens, that's definitely going to hurt families. And, you know, I'm already hearing from federal workers who are going to food banks and food pantries.

[Colby Ekowitz]

Wow. I mean, I know that you, you, Hannah, you are expert on all things federal government, but are you hearing anything about what the current prospects are for the end of this shutdown, maybe from our colleagues on the Congress team or from your own reporting?

[Hannah Natenson]

Seems like my answer on the economy seems bad. Yeah. I do happen to work on a reporting team at the Post here that is staffed by people who the economy and people who cover Congress and the intersection of that. So that's literally all I hear about in our team meetings. And I will tell you, economy bad, state of negotiations bad. Nobody's talking to anybody. And it seems like we might be on track for the longest shutdown in history. Wow.

[Colby Ekowitz]

Well, Hannah, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

[Hannah Natenson]

Thank you for having me. And I wish I reported better news.

[Colby Ekowitz]

Hannah Natenson reports on the federal government for the Post. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. So I've got a fun Halloween themed call out for you. We want to hear your ghost stories. Tell us all about the spooky experiences that you can't explain or that have been part of the lore in your community or your family. So if you have a ghost story to tell, Send us an email. Or even better, send us a voice memo to postreportsashpost.com or follow the link in our show notes to submit. Today's show was produced by Emma Tallkoff. It was edited by Rena Flores and mixed by Shawn Carter. Thanks to economics editor Mike Madden. I'm Colby Ekowitz. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

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