Trump vs. Harvard

Summary

Post Reports: Trump vs. Harvard – Episode Summary

Published on May 28, 2025, by The Washington Post

Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi
Reporter: Colby Ikowicz
Guest: Danielle Douglas Gabriel, Higher Education Reporter
Featured Student: Carl Molden, International Student at Harvard

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Introduction: The Clash Between Harvard and the Trump Administration

In the May 28, 2025 episode of Post Reports, Colby Ikowicz delves into the escalating conflict between former President Donald Trump’s administration and Harvard University. This confrontation has significant implications for international students and the broader landscape of higher education in the United States.

Carl Molden’s Harvard Journey and Sudden Uncertainty

The episode opens with Colby Ikowicz sharing the personal story of Carl Molden, an international student from Vienna, Austria, who celebrates his acceptance into Harvard University:

Carl Molden [00:08]: "It was the best thing that has ever happened to me in my life."

Carl, studying government and multiple languages, exemplifies the caliber of international students at Harvard—over 6,000 of whom comprise more than a quarter of the student body. However, Carl’s optimism is shattered when he receives distressing news about the Trump administration’s latest move against Harvard:

Carl Molden [01:00]: "My phone exploded on my desk. All my group chats were full of messages and concerned students. And then I saw it and Noah was shocked."

The Trump Administration’s Move Against Harvard

Danielle Douglas Gabriel explains the specific actions taken by the Trump administration:

Danielle Douglas Gabriel [02:38]: "The Trump administration is ordering the Department of Homeland Security to revoke a certain certification that colleges need in order to enroll international students... Harvard could no longer enroll foreign students and exist."

The administration alleges that international students are involved in pro-terrorist activities, particularly through participation in pro-Palestinian protests and opinion pieces. This broad accusation lacks substantiated evidence, as international students like Carl assert they are no more active than their American counterparts in such activities.

Trump’s Disparaging Remarks About International Students

A notable low point in the administration’s rhetoric comes with Trump’s unfounded comments questioning the intelligence of international students:

Donald Trump [05:58]: "These students can't add two and two. And they go to Harvard, they want remedial math and they're going to teach remedial math at Harvard."

These remarks are quickly countered by Carl Molden, who defends the integrity and ambitions of international students:

Carl Molden [06:25]: "They come in to become doctors, nurses, engineers, visionaries. They want to do something about climate change."

Harvard’s Robust Response and Legal Battle

Harvard swiftly responds to the administration’s threats by filing a lawsuit, successfully securing an injunction that temporarily blocks the DHS from enforcing the enrollment ban:

Danielle Douglas Gabriel [02:38]: "Within a few hours of filing the lawsuit, they were able to secure an injunction that blocks Department of Homeland Security from following through on its threat."

Despite Harvard's financial robustness, Danielle highlights the complexities of relying on endowments to counteract federal pressures:

Danielle Douglas Gabriel [10:43]: "A lot of endowments are restricted funds... They have to think about keeping that fund to help with the operations of the schools in perpetuity."

Political and Ideological Motivations Behind the Attack

Danielle further elucidates the political and ideological underpinnings of the administration’s actions:

Danielle Douglas Gabriel [15:56]: "This feels very political and it certainly does feel ideological... It's very much about ending diversity, equity and inclusion, which is a big policy agenda for the Trump administration."

Harvard’s President, Alan Garber, also voices confusion over the administration’s actions:

Alan Garber [17:24]: "What is perplexing is the measures that they have taken to address these that don't even hit the same people that they believe are causing the problems."

Implications for Higher Education and Future Prospects

The episode explores the potential chilling effects on other institutions of higher education:

Danielle Douglas Gabriel [18:05]: "This is not a position that the federal government has tried to put itself in recent history, if ever... That's the threat that everyone's really fearful of if they can do this to Harvard."

Carl Molden emphasizes the pivotal role Harvard plays as a beacon for higher education:

Carl Molden [19:52]: "What Harvard does right now is super crucial in this country... If Harvard also caves in, then who else will do it?"

The Uncertain Future for International Students

Concluding the discussion, Danielle addresses the precarious situation facing international students:

Danielle Douglas Gabriel [24:56]: "This effort could really undermine that and create that chilling effect where students don't want to come."

Carl shares the anxiety and confusion among his peers:

Carl Molden [23:36]: "Nobody really knows how to act. And I think there's a lot of chaos... the word that probably describes the situation best is confusion."

Conclusion: A Battle for the Future of Higher Education

The episode underscores the broader ramifications of the Trump administration’s actions against Harvard. It raises critical questions about the independence of higher education from political influence and the future of international students in the United States. As universities grapple with these challenges, the outcome of this high-profile battle will likely set precedents affecting institutions nationwide.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Carl Molden [00:08]: "It was the best thing that has ever happened to me in my life."

• Carl Molden [01:00]: "My phone exploded on my desk. All my group chats were full of messages and concerned students. And then I saw it and Noah was shocked."

• Donald Trump [05:58]: "These students can't add two and two..."

• Danielle Douglas Gabriel [15:56]: "This feels very political and it certainly does feel ideological..."

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Final Thoughts:

Post Reports masterfully navigates the intricate dynamics between political power and academic freedom, showcasing personal stories like Carl Molden’s to highlight the human impact of political decisions. The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the vital role that institutions like Harvard play in fostering global talent and innovation.

Transcript

[Colby Ikowicz]

Carl Molden remembers exactly where he was when he found out he got into Harvard in the spring of 2023.

[Carl Molden]

It was the best thing that has ever happened to me in my life.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Carl is from Vienna, Austria. So it was late at night when he got the notification on his phone.

[Carl Molden]

I saw the confetti. I couldn't believe it. I, like, immediately called my brother and my teacher late at night, my grandma, and then I went back home, woke up my parents.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Carl is one of more than 6,000 international students currently enrolled at Harvard. That's more than a quarter of the student body. He's studying government and a bunch of different languages, including ancient Greek and Arabic. He just finished up his second year and says he's loved his experience at Harvard. But last week, Carl's phone blew up again with another potentially life changing piece of news.

[Carl Molden]

My phone exploded on my desk. All my group chats were full of messages and concerned students. And then I saw it and Noah was shocked.

[Colby Ikowicz]

This time it was news that his future at Harvard might be in question. Last week, the Department of Homeland Security said it would no longer allow international students like Carl to attend Harvard. Harvard then sued the Trump administration and a federal judge temporarily blocked blocked the ban. International students can stay for now. But Carl says the uncertainty of how this will all play out has left him feeling worried about the coming school year.

[Carl Molden]

I really hope I can return so I don't have a backup plan for the fall yet.

[Colby Ikowicz]

International students have found themselves caught in the middle of a fight that's been brewing for months between two President Donald Trump and the wealthiest university in the country. Neither side is backing down. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Colby echowitz. It's Wednesday, May 28th. Today, I talked to higher education reporter Danielle Douglas Gabriel about why the Trump administration has put Harvard in its crosshairs, how the university is pushing back and what their fight means for the independence of other schools across the country. Danielle. Hi. Thanks for joining us.

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

Thanks for having me.

[Colby Ikowicz]

So, Danielle, I really want to understand why Trump has been targeting Harvard, but let's start with this latest escalation that we just heard about. So the Trump administration is trying to stop Harvard from enrolling foreign students. How are they actually going about trying.

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

To do this so effectively? The Trump administration is ordering the Department of Homeland Security to revoke a certain certification that colleges need in order to enroll international students. This is a system known as the Student and Exchange Visitor Program certification. There were threats that this would happen. And then finally, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem ordered it to take place. Now, what this means is that Harvard could no longer enroll foreign students and exist. International students at Harvard have to transfer or lose their legal status. The Department of Homeland Security gave the school about 72 hours to turn over a bunch of records, video, audio of international students who they believe engaged in violence or threatened students or protest activity over the last five years, mind you. So of course Harvard wants to protect its students. 27% of its population is comprised of international students. So the school sued and within a few hours of filing the lawsuit, they were able to secure an injunction that blocks Department of Homeland Security from following through on its threat.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Why is Trump asking for these records? What is he hoping to find?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

The President is hoping to find evidence of international students engaging in pro terrorist activity, as he has accused the entire group of doing through their part, participation in pro Palestinian protests or writing op eds. The President has effectively said that these foreign students are coming to our country and they are stirring up violence through their participation in these campus protests. And certainly there has been participation of international students in these protests, but they are no more active than American born students and certainly not inciting violence to the degree to which the President believes they are. But he has amped up this crackdown on these students in a way that we've never really seen any administration go after this population. I mean, certainly look at what's happening with the State Department. The State Department suspended foreign student visa appointments as it's weighing whether to expand guidelines for screening applicants. They want to look through social media accounts and posts to see if there's any indication of what the politics of the applicants might be. And that's a really different role. I mean, certainly the government screens everyone who comes to this country. They are fully aware of, you know, where they are coming from, oftentimes have a decent sense of whether or not they're engaged in any kind of political activity that could be in violation. So a lot of this is already happening. But going through social media posts is definitely a different step and certainly shows how the administration is starting to view international students.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Trump has also made disparaging comments about, like, the intellect of international students. Obviously completely unfounded. But can you talk a little bit about that? He's calling them not only potential terrorists, but also unintelligent.

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

Yeah, that, that was a bit surprising.

[Donald Trump]

These students can't add two and two. And they go to Harvard, they want remedial math and they're going to teach remedial math at Harvard. Now wait A minute. So why would they get in? How can somebody that can't add or has very basic skills, how do they get into Harvard?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

The students who come to this country are often the best and the brightest in their own countries. And, you know, Carl, the student from Austria, spoke to this.

[Carl Molden]

They come in to become doctors, nurses, engineers, visionaries. They want to do something about climate change. Like, and it's just, like, really. It's just, like, really saddening for me to see.

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

What's fascinating to me is that in Trump's first administration, it was, let's try to encourage immigration of highly skilled, highly educated foreign nationals. This is that population. And so to make it more difficult for these students to come to this country, get an education after they graduate, stay in this country, contribute to its economy, just is a complet turn from where Trump was in his first administration, which is really interesting.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Why is the Trump administration doing this?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

You know, the Trump administration has said that a lot of American campuses have a anti Semitism problem. And, you know, these schools are not denying that. They do say that there has been a rise in antisemitism, a lot of it spanning from the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. Now, at this stage, you know, the Department of Education has already investigated many of the claims that students raised about what they experience on their college campuses, but the Trump administration believes that that is not enough. So in March, they formed a antisemitism task force comprised of a bunch of different federal agencies. About 60 schools received notifications that they'd be investigated. Columbia was certainly the first place where we saw a lot of attention coming from the task force, and it made sense. That was the center of a lot of the encampments that we saw at college campuses. Columbia adhered to a bunch of demands that the administration made and still did not get back the $400 million in federal research funding that the Trump administration froze. And I think a lot of people saw that as a sign that, you know, this wasn't just about making efforts to make changes to eradicate antisemitism. This felt more political in nature. And then we saw the next escalation. Harvard was warned that a review would happen of its practices around antisemitism, with the threat of reviewing, I think, almost $9 billion in federal grant money. Within a few days of that warning, the Trump administration sent a letter making a list of demands that really didn't align with anything having to do with antisemitism. Things like ending diversity, equity and inclusion policies on campus, having more ideolog, diversity among faculty really trying to kind of get the federal government into the day to day operations of a university in a way that no one had ever seen before. Naturally, Harvard said no. And in saying no, it triggered an escalation in the fight with not just Harvard, but higher ed in general.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Okay, so Harvard says, no, we're not going to capitulate to your demands. What did the Trump administration do in response?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

Since then, we have seen the Trump administration rescind $2.2 billion in research money, and it just keeps on ratcheting up. There's been threats of revoking Harvard's tax exempt status, which would cost the university millions of dollars in taxes. The IRS one is a little harder because you need proof that a university or institution that has tax exemption has violated the terms of that agreement. And so far there isn't any. But that doesn't mean that the Trump administration isn't gonna continue its efforts to go after the school at this stage. Harvard University has sued the Trump administration twice. I think the school at this stage is taking on the mantle of fighting for higher ed. They certainly have the resources and they certainly have a lot at stake here.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Harvard is the wealthiest university in America, and I've also heard it has a massive endowment. Right. Of like millions of dol. So couldn't they just. I think people are probably wondering, like, couldn't you just tap into that money to make up for what you're losing from the federal government? Like, how much damage would what Trump's doing actually do to Harvard?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

So certainly, I mean, Harvard's endowment is $53.2 billion. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's. That's nothing to sneeze at, but I think where there's a disconnect for a lot of folks. Is that how endowments work? Right. A lot of endowments are restricted funds, meaning the donor said, I will give you X amount of dollars. It'll only go to Y, and if you want it to go to anything else, you have to come back to me. I have to sign off on it. We'll likely end up in court most of the time. Schools don't want to have to do that unless it's completely necessary. The other aspect of it is endowments, they're not like bank accounts where you could just go withdraw money real quick. You have to think about keeping that fund to help with the operations of the schools in perpetuity. And when I say operations, this is paying for faculty, paying for research, because a lot of Harvard's money does already go towards supporting the research that's happening on campus, but a huge portion of it goes towards student financial aid. So it's a bit more complicated than them just saying, hey, we have $53 billion, let's just take out like 10% of that. It's hard to do that because of the restrictions. It's also difficult to do that because you don't want to disrupt all of the support for financial aid for research and for faculty.

[Colby Ikowicz]

After the break, what Trump's end goal might be in his fight against Harvard. We'll be right back.

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[Colby Ikowicz]

So, Danielle, one thing I've been wondering is how much is this, you know, these attacks on Ivy League universities, how much of it is ideological? How much of it is political? Because, you know, Ivy Leagues are considered elite. They do tend to be more liberal. Like, how much of it do you think it is about what Trump says it is, and how much of it is maybe personal for him?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

I mean, from the reporting that I've done speaking to different higher education experts, this certainly does feel very political and it certainly does feel ideological. And I think it's evident in this list of demands that are being pressed upon Harvard and other schools. It's very much about ending diversity, equity and inclusion, which is a big policy agenda for the Trump administration, that that has little to nothing to do with anti Semitism on its face. So that is where the charges of this being highly charged and politicized certainly makes sense. I think also looking at things like there was an accusation that Harvard had tried to flout the Supreme Court ruling on affirmative action and was still enrolling high percentages of black students, which is not true. Actually, black enrollment has gone down from 18% to 14% since that ruling. But the Trump administration keeps making note of a lot of these charges about Harvard being too inclusive and having too many students of color. And somehow that is an affront to a vision of meritocracy that the Trump administration says they want to get back to. But that doesn't really align with reality. And so it's easy to see that this seems to be ideological in nature more than a real true investment in rooting out antisemitism in American higher education. Harvard's president, Alan Garber, spoke to this on NPR earlier this week.

[Alan Garber]

What is perplexing is the measures that they have taken to address these that don't even hit the same people that they believe are causing the problems. Why cut off research funding? Shutting off that work does not help the country, even as it punishes Harvard. And it is hard to see the length of between that and, say, antisemitism.

[Colby Ikowicz]

I mean, is there a hope, Danielle, that by Trump and his allies that some of these more elite universities can become more conservative in their ideology, that there's a way to kind of root out the liberalism that a lot of these schools espouse?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

I think the demands tell us that that's exactly what the point is. You know, the challenge is that it's not that higher education isn't super liberal. That is very true. It's not like there isn't a need to look at whether there should be more viewpoint diversity on campuses. But that has to happen internally and it has to be more organic than having the federal government force that issue in a way that is threatening by cutting off funding and the like. This is not a position that the federal government has tried to put itself in recent history, if ever. And I think that is the ultimate threat to not just Harvard or Columbia, but to all higher education. How much interference the federal government will have in their day to day operations. We've had instances in history where state governments would say, hey, we don't want you teaching this one thing or teaching this other thing. Think about in the 1920s with lessons about evolution, right? But to say we're going to withhold all funding from you or to revoke your ability to enroll international students, especially coming from the federal government, that's a very different place to be in. And that's not something that really aligns with the nature of American higher education. That's the threat that everyone's really fearful of if they can do this to Harvard. What does this mean for my small state school or my flagship school, or my regional public or my small private institution? We don't have the money to fight. We don't have the means and the resources to go up against the federal government. Carl, the international student we heard from earlier really spoke to this idea.

[Carl Molden]

I think what Harvard does right now is super crucial in this country. I think Harvard is, it's the oldest institution of America. It's older than the US itself. And I think it has a duty to speak out, to speak out for what it believes it's right. And if Harvard also caves in, then who else will do It. What other institution is as wealthy and as influential as Harvard is?

[Colby Ikowicz]

Is there a fear that this will have a chilling effect, that these other universities will bend to the administration's wishes? Because to your point, to Carl's point, they can't stand up to Trump the way that Harvard can?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

There is certainly that fear, but we're in this weird stasis where schools aren't making any moves to fully fall in line with what the administration wants. I mean, certainly we have seen institutions scrape their websites of any reference to diversity, equity, and inclusion. But at the same time, you saw a lot of this coming out after Harvard said no to Trump's demand. There were lots of college presidents signing off on letters supporting Harvard, saying, this is a First Amendment fight. This is about our innate rights to dictate what our curriculum and our mission looks like and make sure that we see that through. And you weren't hearing any of that before Harvard said no. Everybody was super quiet, didn't want to talk, didn't want to stick their neck. But Harvard did first, and that gave a lot of folks the encouragement. Now, how this plays out in the next several months, especially over the summer, I think will really be indicative of how the rest of higher education decides to move. If Harvard is successful, I think schools will be very cautious about taking steps, preemptive steps, to align with the administration's vision. But if Harvard isn't successful and they do not succeed in court, I think you will then see a lot of colleges and universities saying, okay, we may need to tweak certain curriculum, tweak how we look at programs that help underprivileged or disenfranchised students, because that could be seen as dei. So this is critical. It's not just about Harvard being this elite Ivy League school. It is Harvard being the stand in for all of higher education.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Yeah. I mean, Danielle, these are big theoretical questions, right? Like, how much independence should higher education have from direct political influence, particularly in this case, from the President, United States? So that's kind of this big question over this whole conversation. But there's also real people's lives at stake here. And so I wanted to end this conversation where we began it and talk about these international students, because these students, they're now in the crosshairs of this larger question, and their legal status in this country could be at risk. So these students, they've come to this country to get an education. If this ban goes into effect, what happens to them?

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

So certainly, if this does go into effect fully. Right. Right now, everything's at a standstill because of the injunction that was imposed. So Homeland Security cannot take action against these students. They are safe in the country for now. You know, I imagine international students are looking at their prospects and saying, if I transfer to another school and that school becomes a target of this administration, where does that leave me?

[Carl Molden]

Obviously, like thoughts that come to mind is should I research transfer universities? So all the deadlines are over, so it's going to be really hard to come up with a plan. So it's nobody really knows how to act. And I think there's a lot of chaos on I think the word that probably describes the situation best is confusion. I think people are really confused about what to do, what the best move is. Nobody was prepared for this.

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

This could really be harmful to the US Position as a leader for foreign and international enrollment in higher education because of the diversity and richness of the quality of higher education in this country. This effort could really undermine that and create that chilling effect where students don't want to come. And I don't know how much the Trump administration is thinking about that, but that's what's at risk here. We're losing out on the potential innovation that they can bring through the research and the work that they're doing, and we're losing our standing in the world as one of the best places to get a post secondary education.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Danielle, thank you so much for breaking this down for us.

[Danielle Douglas Gabriel]

Thanks for having me.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Danielle. Douglas Gabriel covers higher education for the Post. Carl Mouldin, the international Harvard student you heard from throughout this episode, recently co authored a letter to the editor in the Post Opinion section along with two other international students at Harvard. The students say about Trump quote, he is using us international students as poker chips in this authoritarian game. We'll put a link to their letter in our show notes. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. If you want to show your support for the show, please subscribe to the Washington Post. Not only is it a great way to help us continue to do this work, you can now get access to Washington Post podcasts ad free in Apple Podcasts. Today's show was produced by Emma Talkoff with help from Peter Bresnan. It was mixed by Shawn Carter and edited by Ariel Plotnick. Thanks to Alyssa Rosenberg and Chastity Pratt. I'm Colby Ikowicz. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

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