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Trump's big beautiful Boeing from Qatar, and a trade war thaw
00:32:01
President Donald Trump is eager to accept a gift from Qatar: a $400 million plane that he wants to use as the new Air Force One.
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- [00:01]
Aaron Blake
McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in McDonald's history. Dip it in all the sauces. Dip it in that hot sauce in your bag. Dip it in your McFlurry. Your dip is your business. McCrispy strips at McDonald's.
- [00:17]
Cleave Wootson
So, Cleave, I hear that you have some thoughts on traveling on Air Force One.
- [00:21]
Cleve Wootson
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts.
- [00:22]
Cleave Wootson
Okay.
- [00:22]
Cleve Wootson
What you should understand is that complaining about Air Force One doesn't get you any brownie points anywhere.
- [00:28]
Cleave Wootson
You know, nobody wants to hear this.
- [00:30]
Cleve Wootson
Yeah. It's like, oh, you're on the president's plane and you're on uncomfortable. Oh, man. Woe is me. But the people out listening can't see me. But I am 6 foot 3 and not a small person. And when I'm looking at that Trump kind of wanting this new fangled whatever plane, I'm just like, where would my seat be? Yeah. Does it lie flat?
- [00:50]
Cleave Wootson
Cleave is in favor of the $400 million gift from the Qatari government. It sounds like that's what I'm hearing.
- [00:56]
Natalie Allison
I think he's in favor of checking it out.
- [00:57]
Cleve Wootson
There's an emolument clause for.
- [01:00]
Cleave Wootson
For a reporter.
- [01:01]
Cleve Wootson
I'm just. I'll go to whatever plush seat they put me in. I hope there's a hot tub. That's the one. Hope.
- [01:08]
Cleave Wootson
I don't know if I want to be in a hot tub with a bunch of journalists, honestly.
- [01:10]
Cleve Wootson
Yeah, that's a good point. Not a good look or feeling.
- [01:18]
Cleave Wootson
From the newsroom of the Washington Post. This is Post Reports. I'm Aaron Blake, senior politics reporter and host of the Post Reports Weekly Politics roundtable. It's Thursday, May 15th. I'm joined this week by White House reporter Cleve Wootson. Hey, Cleve.
- [01:33]
Cleve Wootson
Hey.
- [01:34]
Cleave Wootson
And we're also here with another Trump White House whisperer, Natalie Allison. Hey, Natalie.
- [01:38]
Natalie Allison
Hello, Aaron.
- [01:40]
Cleave Wootson
Today we're going to dig into a couple big politics stories this week, including the one we were just talking about, which is the plane from Qatar the Trump administration is pursuing, accepting a gift of an airplane from Qatar that Trump wants to use as Air Force One. There's a lot to unpack here, from the ethical concerns to security questions to what it says about Trump's evolving relationships in and foreign policy towards the Middle East. And then we're going to talk about the other big issue that we keep talking about on this show, which is tariffs. We actually got another big pullback from the White House this week. We're going to talk about how the temporary deal between the US And China came together and what it says about the future of Donald Trump's trade war. But before we get into these stories, I have a little bit of personal news. I want you all to know that this will actually be my last roundtable podcast for Post Reports. My voice is already cracking here. After 15 years at the Washington Post. I'll be leaving this newsroom that I've come to love so much. And over the course of the last year. Plus, some of the people that I've come to love the most are the people on this team who bring such wonderful podcasts to you daily. They really do fantastic work. They are great people and they work so hard to inform you every single day. And so I wanted to say thank you to them for taking me on this journey, taking an ink stained wretch and making him a podcast host for a brief period of time. It's been wonderful and I just want to say thank you. But fear not, you are all in very good hands moving forward. And you all will keep hearing these Politics roundtable podcasts every week. So for this one last week, I am so glad to be joined by two of our favorite guests, Cleve and Natalie. Let's get to it. Okay, Natalie, let's get into this luxury jet from Qatar. We're going to say Cutter, not Qatar. It is Cutter.
- [03:33]
Natalie Allison
I meant to have a conversation with you before we started. Like, how are you going to say it?
- [03:36]
Cleave Wootson
Okay, yes, I've been advised that it's Qatar. And so Qatar, for people who are not familiar, some have called this jet the palace in the sky. I think I prefer to call it the big beautiful Boeing. It's, of course, a.
- [03:49]
Natalie Allison
It's a good one.
- [03:50]
Cleave Wootson
It's a Boeing 7478 jumbo jet. And Natalie, maybe we can start with the basics here. Where did we get this controversy from? What is this plane? How did this all come together? I think it kind of came out of nowhere for a lot of us.
- [04:03]
Natalie Allison
You know, this idea that Trump is suddenly getting a $400 million plane from the nation of Qatar did seem to come nowhere. But Trump has actually been sort of talking about this for months now. He has, since coming back into office, been complaining that the two Boeings that he had originally commissioned during his first term to replace the current Air Force One fleet are so behind schedule. They were supposed to be finished the end of last year. Now it looks like they may not even be finished before he leaves office. Maybe one will is what Boeing is saying now, but he was saying he wanted to find a new plane. So he, back in February, when he went back to Mar a Lago for the weekend, sudden the pool was saying, we're back at the West Palm beach airport Saturday morning, which is very odd. You know, typically he would be going to play golf then, but on his way to play golf, he went to stop to tour this jumbo jet that was Boeing. The reporters, the photographers, you know, getting photos of the tail number, were able to figure out at the time that this jet had been owned and operated by the Qatari royal family at some point. And so, like, everyone thought, you know, okay, he likes planes, maybe he wants to get some ideas for planes.
- [05:12]
Cleave Wootson
Big on planes and airports. He talks a lot about how these airports overseas are much nicer than ours.
- [05:17]
Natalie Allison
And even today, he's continuing while he's over there right now to talk about how advanced the Arab nations are with aviation and airports. But, you know, this sort of died down. We didn't hear a lot about it until ABC broke this story on Sunday saying that not only was he going to get this plane to retrofit for Air Force One, but it was going to be free of costs for the U.S. government. And that while it was a gift to the US Government, the Department of Defense specifically, not Trump himself, that the catch is that Trump's Presidential Library foundation gets to take it when he leaves office.
- [05:54]
Cleave Wootson
Right. So let's get into some of these potential problems with this. And as I see it, they're basically twofold. One is the ethics. You know, you're talking about it being a gift. The other is the security concerns, which I think are maybe a little bit underappreciated here. And I know that you've written about this, Natalie. So let's start with the security concerns. Generally speaking, it's understood that Air Force One needs to be very secure. You know, taking a jet from a foreign government, which is kind of an ally, but in certain ways doesn't see eye to eye and hasn't in recent years with the United States government.
- [06:30]
Cleve Wootson
Ally Ish.
- [06:31]
Cleave Wootson
Ally ish. What are US Officials saying about those security concerns and what they can do about that?
- [06:38]
Natalie Allison
Well, to go off the point you just made, Trump himself was condemning the country of Qatar during his first term about human rights abuses and saying that they were supporting terrorism. And so it is stunning that of all the nations of the world, that he is getting this gifted plane that will become Air Force One, that it is from Qatar. But the concern there is that, yes, the Air Force One. It essentially has to be this Oval Office in the sky, if you will. It not only has to have the most secure communications capabilities to let the President continue doing what he's doing during any time of, you know, calamity and war, but also like it. It has to be pretty fortified in case it comes under attack. And so part of the reason that these Boeings that he commissioned during the first term are not finished is because there are a lot of protocols surrounding who even gets to work on the planes, who gets to build, which mechanics get to come in, and all of that has to be supervised, and all those people have to pass background checks. And, you know, Boeing hasn't given really clear answers on why they're going so slowly with this process compared to what they thought. But it is a very slow process. And so what we have right now is notion that the United States government is going to retrofit this new Qatari jumbo jet to get it to the place it needs to be. But they haven't answered questions on what all they'll do. And the thought is if they're going to be able to fly it, the President is likely going to have to waive some of those traditional security and military requirements about what needs to be on this plane.
- [08:09]
Cleve Wootson
I think that gets to a lot of the concept of free, which is what Trump has said. This is a free plane. Why don't we turn down a free plane? Even if they do some of that waiving, you know, it's gonna cost millions upon millions of dollars to retrofit. You know, some legislators have said that this thing would have to be basically broken down to the studs. And, you know, because Qatar is ally, ish, not ally, you wanna make sure that it goes through significant rigor. If it's going to be the flying Oval Office, the flying situation Room, the flying press room, and all of that stuff. And that just takes money, money that's not going to be paid for by the royal family. It's gonna be paid for by American tax.
- [08:48]
Cleave Wootson
In time, I would think, too. You know, the idea is that this plane is gonna be used for the remainder of Trump's presidency. But, you know, how much use is he actually gonna get out of this very expensive gift from the Qatar government?
- [08:59]
Natalie Allison
I mean, the timeline that he has privately projected is that this is something he would like to have done by the end of the year.
- [09:05]
Aaron Blake
Okay?
- [09:06]
Natalie Allison
So if that's the case, he would get a couple years, two and a half years, generously, three years out of this plane. But experts Former military, defense, Secret Service officials all. They just don't see how this is going to happen anywhere near the timeline he wants, unless it just really isn't anywhere near the criteria, for sure.
- [09:29]
Cleave Wootson
Unless he waives all of these requirements. And I wanted to now get into the ethics side of things. And the argument from the White House, Cleave, is that this is a gift to the Defense Department. This is not a gift to Donald Trump personally. It would be transferred to his presidential library foundation. But Trump says that he wouldn't personally fly this after he leaves office. Office. The Constitution, of course, says you cannot accept gifts from foreign governments unless Congress approves it. This is called the emoluments clause, which you might remember from Trump's first term. Cleve, where does this leave us? And how much does this seem like it could violate the Constitution?
- [10:10]
Cleve Wootson
Can we say emoluments ish?
- [10:11]
Cleave Wootson
Emoluments ish. I mean, lots of issues on this podcast.
- [10:14]
Cleve Wootson
Yeah. I mean, and I think that one of the hallmarks of the Trump administration is sort of of leaning into the ish. That's not substitute for a curse word, I swear. But like, you know, leaning into those sort of gray areas of the Constitution and the law. And this certainly sort of falls into that. Trump has argued that a. His Attorney General, Pam Bondi, who has some issues of her own with the Qatari government, she served as a lobbyist.
- [10:37]
Cleave Wootson
For them in recent years.
- [10:38]
Cleve Wootson
They were her employers for a bit. Right. Has gone through all the legal red tape and given her stamp of approval. Trump has argued that it is not a gift to him personally, that it is a. A gift to the United States. A lot of his supporters have said the United States has received similar gifts in the past in times of war or the transfer of weapons or munitions or aircraft and all of that stuff, and that he is on solid legal footing. But critics are saying that Trump is going to be the one who uses this aircraft, and even after he's out of office, it's not gonna be used by whoever comes after him. And so it does constitute, for all intents and purposes, a gift to the president. And what are the costs, ethically, politically, morally, of that gift?
- [11:28]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah, and let's get into that a little bit, because this doesn't just happen in a vacuum. I think we look at this and it's kind of a sensational story, and it's taking place in a larger context, and that context is Trump's approach to his second term has not taken as much care to kind of separate his personal interests from his presidential actions. I'm thinking mostly about the issue of him having these meme coins. His forays into crypto, which we've seen a lot of reporting, including from the Washington Post, on even this trip to the Middle east, there's a lot of talk about what personal deals are being cut. We just had a few weeks ago his company forging a multi billion dollar golf resort deal with the government of Qatar. But I keep thinking, like, all of that is very difficult for people to understand. Like, nobody really understands what crypto is, right? I mean, I don't. And I kind of wonder if this is something that is easier for people to understand when it comes to the idea that Trump could be enriching himself in office. Am I reading that right or what.
- [12:30]
Natalie Allison
Do you guys think? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Trump himself is someone who's been really open about how much he loves planes and nice things. And so this is just like the most simplistic storyline, really. You know, the President of the United States is saying he's accepting on behalf of the Department of Defense this really shiny plane and that it's then going to go to his library. It's not going to stay in possession of the United States. But, you know, his trip to the Middle east, probably less so to your average American. But it does raise a lot of questions about the ways that the President and his family are, of course, profiting, you could argue, not from the presidency, but while he is in the presidency again. The White House, of course, is insistent that they are following all ethics requirements and laws. And this is something that the Trump family really shied away from during the first term. The second that he left office, his sons and sons in law very quickly resumed business. But this time, they aren't really making that effort at all. They are not making an effort to avoid this idea that they're not gonna do business with countries that the President is engaging with.
- [13:32]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah, and of course, I think you're referring to Jared Kushner, Trump's son in law, shortly after he left office, got a $2 billion Infus from the Saudi sovereign wealth fund for his private equity firm. Was a big deal, but less of a big deal because he was out of office. And I think that kind of epitomizes the intersection of their politics and his political brand.
- [13:52]
Natalie Allison
And to be fair, I do believe that Eric Trump has said that they aren't picking up any new business, that they are simply just continuing contracts that they started before Trump returned to office in January. So that is an explanation that they're Giving.
- [14:04]
Cleve Wootson
I mean, but you also had, in the weeks and months before Trump went on his first foreign trip to the Middle east, you've had Trump's sons crisscrossing through the Middle east, talking about trumpeting different projects that the Trump Organization is doing. As a White House reporter, it is rare for me to leaf through brochures of fancy buildings and fancy planes. And I spent a good chunk of, I guess, Natalie, too, like, leafing through building that Eric Trump was talking about that has an infinity pool, the highest infinity pool in the world. And then two weeks later, President Trump is in the Middle East. So the big question that we're trying to find out and we're trying to. To understand is, where does that Venn diagram between the Trump Organization and what Trump himself is promoting sort of intersect?
- [14:51]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah. I think there's two other things that we can point to here. One is that we always ask about, will people care about these various controversies that Trump is going through? You know, he's gone through so much, and so many people thought that this was the last straw and this would turn people against Trump. You know, I don't know if the $400 million airplane is that situation for him, but I do think it's worth noting that, that there is this perception, if you look at polling, the idea that there is potentially some corruption beneath the surface with Trump. So there was a Marquette Law School poll last year that asked people if behaved corruptly described Trump, and 61% of people said that it described him at least somewhat. There was some polling earlier this year about Trump's forays into the crypto world that showed people disliked that 2 to 1. The other thing that I think is worth noting here is. And Natalie, I think you mentioned Trump attacking Qatar before, when he was a candidate in 2016, even early in his first presidency, talking about human rights issues and stuff like that. The other thing he talked about a lot was the idea that Hillary Clinton was accepting foreign gifts through the Clinton Foundation. This is from Trump's debate with Clinton in October of 2016.
- [16:04]
Donald Trump
It's a criminal enterprise. Saudi Arabia giving $25 million, Qatar, all of these countries. You talk about women and women's rights. So these are people that push gays off business, off buildings. These are people that kill women and treat women horribly, and yet you take their money.
- [16:25]
Cleave Wootson
I think it's worth noting that while Trump's relationship with the Middle east has evolved over time, these human rights concerns have not gone away. It's not like the Middle east has suddenly liberalized in a Lot of ways. Also, Trump in 2017 said Qatar has, quote, historically been a funder of terrorism, a very high level. And that brings me to the last point I want to talk to you guys about, which is Trump's kind of evolving posture towards the Middle East. We've seen this on a number of fronts in recent days. They're relaxing on sanctions with Syria, the idea that he's going to pursue some kind of a nuclear deal with Iran, which is very different from what we saw in his first term. What are you watching for in that? And how striking has it been for you to see kind of these shifts in American foreign policy?
- [17:12]
Natalie Allison
Well, first, going back to a point you made a couple minutes ago about the idea that maybe this could be the final straw, I wanna go on record, this will not be the final strawberry.
- [17:21]
Cleave Wootson
To be clear, I doubt that it.
- [17:23]
Natalie Allison
Will be so much of what we have seen with him. You cited polling where people do think that there is this underlying corruption that maybe they didn't see with other presidents.
- [17:30]
Cleve Wootson
They voted for him anyway, and yet.
- [17:32]
Natalie Allison
They voted for him anyway. I hate to use the term, but so much of it is baked in. So let's just make sure everyone understands where we are on that.
- [17:40]
Cleve Wootson
Can I say one thing for that before you make your second point? I do think that Trump's brand is prosperity. Everywhere he goes, there's this thing that is the golden age of America. And the first few months of his second term haven't been entirely golden. There's economic pressures, worries about rising inflation, rising joblessness, all of this stuff. And I do think, and this will take some more reporting, some more of us going out in the country and talking to people, that if we see Trump pursuing a $400 million plane and individual Americans economic situations, if we slide into a recession, if these terrorists continue, have an outsized impact, I do wonder what impact that could have not just on Trump, but also on Republicans in the midterms or his ability to enact his presidential policies.
- [18:29]
Cleave Wootson
Natalie, did you want to finish your point about his posture towards the Middle east and the changes there?
- [18:33]
Natalie Allison
Yeah, just, I mean, quickly, you know, it was obviously striking to see the meeting with the Syrian president.
- [18:39]
Cleave Wootson
We heard a somebody who formerly fought with Al Qaeda In Iraq against U.S.
- [18:43]
Natalie Allison
Forces, you know, that was also stunning. His tone on Iran the last few days has been much more conciliatory. I think he said something like, here we are. We're trying to offer Iran a better path forward, lifting the sanctions on Syria. That got him this incredible standing ovation in Saudi Arabia. I believe was where he was when he announced that. And so he certainly has been seemingly extending these olive branches to them. And each of these nations he's visiting have been rolling out not only red carpets, but purple carpets.
- [19:15]
Cleave Wootson
I think I saw a McDonald's trailer. Somebody set up a McDonald's trailer for him in Saudi Arabia. Is that right?
- [19:22]
Natalie Allison
Yes.
- [19:22]
Cleve Wootson
White marble and camels.
- [19:24]
Natalie Allison
Trump himself, yes, has been stunned by the marble, by the fixtures in the buildings and homes he's visiting. He said, I haven't seen camels like this in a long time. Neither have I. I guess that means his last trip there. But he is, you know, Trump himself has been deeply impressed. And these leaders know that. They know that. That goes a long way with Trump. If you pull out all the stops, if you wow him, if you. If you make him feel like. Like he is the most important person in the world, that goes a long way with him. And what we're seeing in the Middle east is this kind of mutual flattery that seems to be exactly what Trump wants in this moment. And we've seen that on a much smaller scale in the Oval Office the last few months. People like Keir Starmer and like Mark.
- [20:06]
Cleave Wootson
Carney, British Prime Minister and the Canadian prime minister.
- [20:09]
Natalie Allison
British in Canada, coming to visit him. And these are people who have been critical of Trump, and these are people who you wouldn't think necessarily would have this great exchange and in both cases, have relied on a little bit of flattery or their tongue in a way that seems like it's really paid off.
- [20:23]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah. And after the break, we're going to get into some of the subtext of those Carney and Starmer meetings, which, of course, are the tariffs. We saw somewhat of a walk back from the Trump administration this week. We're going to get into what exactly caused the White House to ease off of its trade war with China, at least for now. We'll be right back.
- [20:53]
Jacob Bogage
My name is Jacob Bo Gage, and I'm the Congressional Economic Correspondent at the Washington Post. I cover anything with a dollar sign in front of it in Congress. That means taxes, benefit programs like Social Security and Medicare, trade. The Washington Post is personal to me. I grew up in this area. I grew up fighting with my brother for the sports page. So to be able to work at this institution when I can see outcomes of my reporting on really important issues, issues about the health of our democracy, the health of the most vulnerable people in this country. I've seen policies change specifically because of work that I have done with so many of my talented colleagues in this newsroom. I tell people they should subscribe to the Washington Post because we covered the most powerful city in the world from the most powerful city in the world. This is what we live every day. Subscribers support this work. Learn more@washingtonpost.com subscribe I'm Jacob Bogage and I'm one of the people behind the Post. My name is Jacob Bogage and I'm the Congressional Economic Correspondent at the Washington Post. I cover anything with a dollar sign in front of it in Congress. That means taxes, benefit programs like Social Security and Medicare trade. The Washington Post is personal to me. I grew up in this area. I grew up fighting with my brother for the sports page. So to be able to work at this institution when I can see outcomes of my reporting on really important issues, issues about the health of our democracy, the health of the most vulnerable people in this country. I've seen policies change specifically because of work that I have done with so many of my talented colleagues in this newsroom. I tell people they should subscribe to the Washington Post because we covered the most powerful city in the world from the most powerful city in the world. This is what we live every day. Subscribers support this work. Learn more@washingtonpost.com subscribe I'm Jacob Bogage and I'm one of the people behind the Post.
- [22:59]
Cleave Wootson
So we've been in an escalating trade war with China for weeks now. But then this week, the US And China came to somewhat of a deal. On Wednesday, there was a temporary pause in some of the highest tariffs that the Trump administration has levied against foreign governments. So, Natalie, let's break down what the terms of this agreement are. What are the tariff rates right now versus what they were before.
- [23:24]
Natalie Allison
So of course, we saw over the weekend in Geneva, Switzerland, both sides coming to the table, if you will, from the U.S. that was Scott Besant, the Secretary of the treasury, and the US Trade Representative, Jameson Green. They met with Chinese officials and essentially what we went from was the US having 145% tariffs on Chinese goods. That was brought down to 30%. And on the Chinese side, they had lifted their tariffs on US goods to 125%. That is now down to 10%. And that's for 90 days. While they say they iron out more specifics in the whole tariff saga. We've seen lots of, you know, 90 day pauses. Of course, Trump claimed that these trade deals are very final. In the case of the UK I think he said it was a full and comprehensive trade agreement. That that is not what it was. But this has bought the US And China a lot of much needed time to keep the markets from completely crashing and the factory lines from shutting down. And so that's what we saw last weekend in that meeting in Geneva, Switzerland, which, you know, the Post reported, is something that Trump agreed to because he finally realized his own supporters were taking a hit, that they were begging him to reverse course. We reported that the White House chief of staff, Susie Wiles, that Scott Besant, Jamison, Greer, that they went to Trump armed with this information, that people like the longshoremen and the truckers and the people who made up your base, the working class people, are warning that their work could stop and that that argument is, is what they use to sort of have an end with Trump, to get him to agree to enter those talks with China.
- [25:01]
Cleave Wootson
Khalif, what Natalie just described here feels like a very familiar story with Trump. I feel like I've read this story when it comes to other issues where basically the people around Trump come to him and say, this is hurting your people. Specifically, I guess it's not as compelling for Trump to hear that it's hurting the country more broadly. It needs to be his supporters who are the ones who are paying the price for this thing. Am I wrong that this seems to be kind of the trend and the way that he generally is convinced to take action?
- [25:28]
Cleve Wootson
Yeah. There was a point in American, recent American history in which all presidents sort of believed, you know, the election is over, and now I am the president of everybody. I'm the president for all of America, and my job is to be a steward of this entire country. And with Trump, increasingly we're seeing this sort of bifurcated response where, like you said, if all of America, if the economists are saying this, if this is impacting people, well, you know, tough cookies. We're gonna have to deal with fewer dolls at Christmas and all of that stuff. But if it's spec, specifically the folks that are maga, the folks that supported him, the folks that cast ballots for him, then that becomes a much, much stronger argument.
- [26:08]
Cleave Wootson
Natalie, you were part of the story about how this kind of temporary deal came together. I think there was a stat in your story that this has now happened to some degree or another more than 50 times. There have been tariffs that have been changed more than 50 times, sometimes in a matter of a week, sometimes later that same day. Is there a sense of that they actually got something for this? Or is it just like, oh, well, China's now talking to us and we can just pause this for now.
- [26:34]
Natalie Allison
Well, you won't hear anything other than that from the White House. Of course. They're going to say, yeah, we have everybody coming to us begging to make trade deals that we couldn't get done for years and years and years. And the reality is that no trade deals are done. The trade deals take a very long time. These are not comprehensive trade deals. These are temporary solutions to get past Trump announcing very steep trademark tariffs that sent global markets into a spiral. And at this point, the markets have rebounded and all is not lost. And so they're taking that as a win. But it does beg the question of what was the point. But the fact that those rates were paused and that the rhetoric about sticking it to China has resulted in now those tariffs coming down significantly, still higher than what they were, 30%, is still significant. That is certainly something that the White House is saying, look, we did something. This is important, We've still made progress, and it's going to be better for America in the end than what it was before. And so I think we're still in a wait and see approach about how this resolves, what happens 90 days from now and what does this look like by the end of the year? What is Christmas like? Cleave?
- [27:40]
Cleave Wootson
I don't know how many dolls are being purchased.
- [27:43]
Cleve Wootson
Seven dolls at the Wootson household. I would say, though, in response to the sort of got something out of it, I think. I think what Trump did get something out of it, though, like he got the ability to claim a win and over and over again in these trade deals, even if they go back to essentially what things were before, he gets to send a message to his base, to the people that voted for him, to that bifurcated America that we were talking about earlier, that I have done something that other administrations and presidents have not done, were afraid to do, couldn't do, and I have gotten results. Now, what those results will be, we have no idea. Right. And it will bear out over time what impact that has on the economy, on individual Americans and all of that stuff. But I think one of the things that has been a hallmark of Trump's second term is they're very focused on doing things that allow them to sort of, in the immediate moment, claim a win. We have won victory. Here it is. Now, that victory may be eaten away in the months and weeks to follow, but that win sort of resonates. The winning spirit resonates for the administration.
- [28:47]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah. I think the other part of that, though, and this is something we've talked about on the show before is that doing something and then pulling back also creates uncertainty in the markets. It creates uncertainty for businesses that are trying to make decisions about what to do in the future. These companies are now having to try and figure out if in 90 days, these tariffs on China are going to be raised back to where they were before. And so I think that comes with economic costs, too. Right. Like, is the White House understanding that the uncertainty that has been created has been a problem, too, or is this just kind of a temporary pullback?
- [29:23]
Natalie Allison
I mean, they are cognizant of the fact that there is still uncertainty. And I think that's, you know, they are leaning heavily on people like Scott Bessant to try to come up with a solution that will be palatable to Donald Trump, where, as Cleave said, he can still feel like he has a win. But, you know, this is something that Trump has discussed for many years. It's something he campaigned on. Trump himself, himself, when everyone was really upset about what the results of the tariffs were becoming, he said, yeah, this is actually what the American people voted for. That's what he said. I think we did see this unique situation where he was convinced to enter these talks because of the threat of potentially his supporters turning on him. But when it comes to public opinion and the American press and with the American people at large separate from his base, he really doesn't care. And his advisers gave us a colorful quote a couple months ago when we were asking, why are you doing this? And one of the people around him said that Trump was at the peak of not giving an F right now. And we've certainly seen that happen. And this idea that he'll just throw something against the wall and see if it sticks, and we'll try it, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Maybe it'll be really great and historic, and I'll do something no one's ever done, and if it doesn't work, we can pivot it and still call it a win. But that's sort of been his attitude.
- [30:40]
Cleve Wootson
One more thing I'll just add to that. I've talked to some Republican strategists, and the argument they make is that it's not just what Trump does, but when he does it. Right. Because experimenting, throwing stuff at the wall, stuff, having a calamitous effect, has an impact now, but it still gives them time to, as Natalie was saying, to pivot. You know, they still have the ability to sort of evade electoral consequences in the midterms and beyond. If the chaos part of it of the equation is confined to these couple of months as opposed to this is happening in December, if I really do have fewer dolls at Christmas, if this goes into next year.
- [31:19]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah. And that's the other thing that I think is worth closing on here, which is Trump has been talking about this issue not just during the 2024 campaign, but for literally decades. It's like his big thing. He's been talking about tariffs for a very long time. And so I kind of wonder, like, are his advisors only going to be able to sway him away from this approach so much, and how much is this going to linger? I don't think this is the end of the trade war in any real sense. Do you guys get that sense that we're not really in a ramp down, we're just kind of in a temporary pause?
- [31:50]
Natalie Allison
No, I don't think it's the end by any stretch, but I think it's notable that the person who's been in his ear on this for a number of years encouraging it, Piero Navarro, who, who Trump tapped to be one of his top trade advisors again this term in the White House, has lost quite a bit of influence with him in this. He has been sidelined when it comes to ironing out the current trade policy. He was a really big part of those conversations leading up to the Liberation Day announcement in early April, as they called it. But since then, he has not been in the picture so much.
- [32:22]
Cleave Wootson
Yeah. And that can often be a very big indicator of who's winning the internal battles in the Trump administration. Certainly, certainly. But that's it for today's show. Thank you so much, Natalie and Cleave.
- [32:30]
Natalie Allison
Thanks for having us on for your last show.
- [32:32]
Cleave Wootson
Aaron, thank you. Thank you.
- [32:33]
Cleve Wootson
Yeah, it was an honor.
- [32:34]
Cleave Wootson
Thank you. Natalie, Allison and Cleve Wootson are White House reporters for the Post. Today's episode was produced by Laura Benchoff with help from Rena Flores. It was mixed by Sam Baer and edited by Lucy Perkins. I'm Aaron Blake. It's been so fun to bring these stories to you every week, and I look forward to what the postgreat podcast team produces moving forward. I know I'll be listening, and I hope that you guys will, too. So I won't be in your feeds anymore, but you will hear from my wonderful colleagues both tomorrow and moving forward with more great stories from the Washington Post.
- [33:20]
Christina Quinn
You don't know me yet, but I bet we have something in common. We all wish we were better functioning humans. Maybe figure out how to sleep better, have more meaningful relationships, cook more that search for practical knowledge. It's my job at the Washington Post. I host a podcast called Try this. Every episode is like an audio class, and we learn together. I'm Christina Quinn. Now you know me. Check out Try this wherever you're listening.