‘We want to put them in trauma’

Summary

Post Reports: "We Want to Put Them in Trauma" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: June 7, 2025
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi
Episode Title: "We Want to Put Them in Trauma"

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of Post Reports, hosts Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi delve into the severe mental health crisis plaguing federal workers, exacerbated by the turbulent changes during the Trump administration. The episode centers around the tragic suicide of Caitlin, a dedicated public health researcher, and explores the broader implications of governmental policies on the well-being of federal employees.

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Caitlin’s Story: A Life Dedicated to Public Health

The episode opens with the heartfelt remembrance of Caitlin by her husband, Mike Cross Barnett, highlighting her unwavering commitment to her family, friends, and colleagues.

• Mike Cross Barnett (01:06): "A lot of the people she knows have something that she knitted for them, usually a hat, occasionally a scarf, on very rare occasions, a pair of socks."

Caitlin's career was marked by her dedication to improving maternal health outcomes. In 2012, she joined the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation in Baltimore, focusing on prenatal care programs that benefited pregnant women on Medicaid, particularly those battling opioid addiction.

• Mike Cross Barnett (02:28): "It was work that felt very fulfilling to her and that she loved doing."

However, the political shift following President Trump's second inauguration led to the removal of critical gender and minority health data from government websites, instilling fear in Caitlin about potential job losses and the dismantling of essential programs.

• Caitlin's Concerns (02:33): "Not only would all of this work be for nothing, but then all the people who they knew would benefit from these programs wouldn't receive those benefits and that people would very likely become sick and even die as a result of not having access to these services."

Amidst these professional anxieties, Caitlin was also recovering from a difficult surgery and grappling with long-standing depression. The mounting stress ultimately led to her suicide on March 4, at the age of 55.

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The Trump Administration’s Impact on Federal Workers

The hosts introduce William Wan, an investigative reporter for The Washington Post, who has extensively covered the mental health struggles of federal employees during this period.

• William Wan (04:27): "I think it's complicated. Like any suicide that happens, there's a lot of factors that come into it. But I think a key one was her stress and frustrations and just deep worry about her job..."

Wan explains that Caitlin’s tragic death is part of a larger pattern where federal workers faced immense pressure due to administrative changes, including mass layoffs and a hostile work environment.

• William Wan (07:24): "I think a lot of people are finding themselves in these very new situations in which they don't know it's quite serious and dangerous for them. They have never experienced before and are struggling to figure a way out."

The episode highlights the sudden layoffs at the Department of Health and Human Services, where 10,000 workers were dismissed in a manner that caused additional trauma.

• Colby Ikowicz (07:17): "Oh, my God. Yeah, I can't. I remember seeing photos of those lines."

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Government and White House Response to Tragedies

When Post Reports reached out to the affected departments and the White House, responses varied significantly.

• Health and Human Services (07:31): "Their department takes any loss of life or distress seriously. Our focus remains on providing support and resources to ensure the well-being of their employees."

The White House response was more contentious, revealing a dismissive attitude towards the plight of federal workers.

• Trump Administration’s Stance (09:32):
  • Russell Vogt, Budget Director: "We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected... We want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains."

This statement underscores a deliberate strategy to undermine federal workers' morale, contributing to the ongoing mental health crisis.

• Russell Vogt (09:32): "We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected."

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Mental Health Crisis Among Federal Employees

The discussion shifts to the widespread mental health issues among federal workers, many of whom derive their identity and purpose from their public service roles. The administration's negative rhetoric has led to existential crises among employees, questioning their worth and the impact of their work.

• William Wan (10:08): "To have your whole ethic and reason for being, reason for working question, I think it's not just like an insult, it's like a questioning of is this all worth it? Am I doing the right thing? Why do I work? Why do I exist?"

Personal stories shared in the episode illustrate the dire consequences of this sustained stress:

• VA Worker (12:24): A manager forced to lay off probationary workers experienced severe anxiety, leading to an increase in her medication dosage.
• NIH Manager (14:34): A health researcher with a family history of bipolar disorder faced suicidal thoughts amid job insecurity, implementing stringent safety measures to cope.

New instances of mental health struggles are also emerging among federal employees who had never experienced such issues before, as exemplified by a National Park Service worker who contemplated suicide following his dismissal.

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Caitlin’s Legacy and Family’s Coping Mechanisms

Caitlin’s family, especially her husband Mike, finds solace in the outpouring of support and memories shared by their community.

• Mike Cross Barnett (16:10): "Thinking of Caitlin inspires one to do good, work hard and be kind."

This collective remembrance helps the family navigate their grief, emphasizing Caitlin's lasting positive impact despite her untimely death.

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William Wan’s Reflections on Covering Mental Health

The conversation transitions to William Wan's personal journey and his commitment to covering mental health issues.

• William Wan (20:58): "Mental health is so undercovered and almost treated as a vestige or appendage to medical system... I was like, I was like, I actually learn a lot of, like, I was not that open to therapy, I have to admit, before I started covering mental health."

Wan shares how his reporting has not only shed light on critical issues but also influenced positive changes, such as his investigative work on Yale University's discriminatory mental health policies leading to significant institutional reforms.

• William Wan (23:06): "Yale literally changed every single problem and policy that we laid out in our story."

He also discusses his strategies for maintaining his mental health while dealing with emotionally taxing stories, emphasizing the importance of a strong support system and self-care practices.

• William Wan (25:29): "I have friends that I can call anytime and talk about, whatever... I have to protect your body... keep that machine oiled so it can keep helping people."

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Conclusion and Resources

As the episode wraps up, the hosts provide resources for listeners struggling with mental health issues, emphasizing the importance of seeking help.

• Colby Ikowicz: "If you or someone you know needs help, please call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988."

The episode concludes with acknowledgments to the production team and a brief promotion for other Washington Post offerings, maintaining focus on the critical topic of mental health among federal workers.

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Key Takeaways

• Caitlin’s Tragedy: Represents the profound personal costs of political and administrative turmoil on dedicated federal employees.
• Systemic Impact: The Trump administration's policies and rhetoric have significantly degraded the mental health and morale of federal workers.
• Broader Mental Health Crisis: Federal workers are experiencing heightened anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation, often without adequate support.
• Role of Journalism: William Wan’s investigative reporting has been instrumental in highlighting these issues and prompting institutional changes.
• Personal Resilience: Both the subjects and the reporters emphasize the importance of community support and self-care in combating mental health challenges.

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Notable Quotes

• Mike Cross Barnett (01:06): "A lot of the people she knows have something that she knitted for them..."
• William Wan (07:24): "I think a lot of people are finding themselves in these very new situations..."
• Russell Vogt (09:32): "We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected."
• William Wan (10:08): "Is this all worth it? Am I doing the right thing? Why do I work? Why do I exist?"
• William Wan (23:06): "Yale literally changed every single problem and policy that we laid out in our story."

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This episode of Post Reports offers a deeply moving examination of the intersection between politics, mental health, and public service, shedding light on the human stories behind federal workforce statistics and urging a compassionate response to those in distress.

Transcript

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[Colby Ikowicz]

Before we start today's show, a warning. We'll be talking about mental health and suicide. If you or someone you know needs help, Please call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 9-8 8, and now here's the show. Mike Cross Barnett wants people to remember his wife, Caitlin, in a few ways. She was someone who was constant for their three kids, for her friends, and for her colleagues.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

A lot of the people she knows have something that she knitted for them, usually a hat, occasionally a scarf, on very rare occasions, a pair of socks. She hated to knit socks because they take a long time and it's kind of difficult.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Mike was the careful planner. Caitlin was spontaneous.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

I didn't know that you could stay in a hotel without making a reservation ahead of time. And Caitlyn didn't know about making reservations.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And she really cared about people, even people she'd never met.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

That's why she dedicated her life to helping other people, first as a teacher for many years, but then later on as a public health researcher because she determined that that was, you know, the way that she could best reach and touch and help the greatest number of people.

[Colby Ikowicz]

In 2012, Caitlin joined the center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation in Baltimore. She studied how certain prenatal care could lead to better outcomes for pregnant women on Medicaid while also saving the government money with fewer ER visits. And she oversaw a government funded program that helped pregnant mothers who were addicted to opioids.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

It was work that felt very fulfilling to her and that she loved doing.

[Colby Ikowicz]

But then within days of President Trump's second inauguration, the government began removing gender and minority health data from its websites. Caitlin started to worry that she and her colleagues might lose their jobs and that all the programs they'd worked on would just go away and that all.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

Of this, not only would all of this work be for nothing, but then all the people who they knew would benefit from these programs wouldn't receive those benefits and that people would very likely become sick and even die as a result of not having access to these services.

[Colby Ikowicz]

At the same time, Caitlin was recovering from a difficult surgery. She had also struggled with depression on and off for years, though she'd never attempted suicide. But as she thought about what was happening to the government, to her colleagues, to her country, she became more and more distressed.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

The weight of all of it, all of it just became too much for her, like, kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back in a way.

[Colby Ikowicz]

On March 4, Caitlin died by suicide. She was 55 years old. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports Weekend. I'm Colby ikowicz. It's Saturday, June 7th. Today we bring you a special episode about the immense toll on federal workers mental health. In the wake of the chaos of the Trump administration's first months. Our colleague William Wan has been reporting on what it's been like for the many workers who have lost their jobs and the workers who remain at beleaguered agencies. And later in the show, William and I talk about his experience covering the nation's mental health crisis. William, I've been so moved by your work over the last couple years. So thank you so much for being here.

[William Wan]

It's great to be with you.

[Colby Ikowicz]

William. We just heard the tragic story about Caitlin. Does her husband, does Mike blame the Trump administration for his wife's death?

[William Wan]

I think it's complicated. Like any suicide that happens, there's a lot of factors that come into it. But I think a key one was her stress and frustrations and just deep worry about her job, whether she would lose it, whether the people counting on her, whether she could still help those populations, which is the whole reason she joined the federal government. So I talked to her husband, her a lot of her friends, a lot of her co workers. And I think it was a huge, huge factor in why she died.

[Colby Ikowicz]

How did you come across Caitlin's story? How did you learn about what had happened?

[William Wan]

Yeah, so when the mass firing started, I and my reporting partner on this story, Hannah Natenson, you know, we live and work in D.C. i just kept hearing over and over from all of these federal workers, but, you know, friends, neighbors, just people you encounter. And then online, too, just these stories of like, I had federal workers telling me they had all of this pain and angst. And so some of them started telling us about, you know, they were turning to alcohol. They were going to see therapists for the first time. Their psychiatrists were upping their Medications, you know, doubling the dose and then doubling it again. And in the middle of all this, I heard several cases of suicide were happening. And it just felt really important to be able to tell at least one of those stories and just so people could feel and see the wreckage that was happening, that it's not just numbers. We're just firing this many people. It was real, actual people suffering in the middle of it.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And Caitlin, the department where Caitlin worked, they've laid off a lot of people. I mean, I guess we will never know if she would have. Was her unit. Is her unit still there? Would she have been swept up in the kind of mass firings that.

[William Wan]

That's the thing she was so worried about for so long. She died before a lot of this played out. But, like, just like A month later, 10,000 workers at Health and Human Services, the department where she worked, were laid off. It wasn't just the number laid off, though. It was the manner they were carried out. Some people would find out that morning, I think it was in April, they had to line up in these huge lines outside the building and they'd one by one swipe their cards. And only if they're hard worked, they would find out, oh, I'm still. I got a job. And if it didn't, they would have to, like, pack their things.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Oh, my God. Yeah, I can't. I remember seeing photos of those lines.

[William Wan]

Yeah.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Has the federal government reacted or responded or reached out to Caitlin's family, to Mike?

[William Wan]

We asked Health and Human Services for response, and they said they gave us this written statement that their department takes any loss of life or distress seriously. And they said, our focus remains on providing support and resources to ensure the well being of their employees. The interesting thing is we reached out to the White House as well, because their story connected a lot of this anguish to the actions they were taking. And their response was interesting in that they gave us two responses. One was, Trump has done more than any other president in history to help address chronic diseases in our country, which is puzzling. And then the other was that people serve the government and it's an honor, not a privilege. So anyone who doesn't want to be there should find a job in the private sector. And then there was one other response we asked them for. There was this one quote from a Trump official that really shocked a lot of federal workers. He said that this is Trump's budget director, told people in a speech that he wanted to put people in trauma. And we asked the White House, is this really what you want to do you want to put federal workers into trauma? And they gave us this written statement from an unnamed senior official that basically said, what about the January 6th defendants and political prisoners who suffered real trauma and committed suicide over the harassment, bullying, and imprisonment of bureaucrats who weaponized the government against them? What about them?

[Colby Ikowicz]

Wow. And that was Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vogt. Right. Who made the comment about wanting to put federal government workers. Bureaucrats in trauma.

[William Wan]

Yeah. In a speech just two years ago, he was explaining the plan for a second Trump administration.

[Russell Vogt]

We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected.

[Colby Ikowicz]

We want.

[Russell Vogt]

When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly.

[William Wan]

Viewed as the villains. We want to put them in trauma.

[Russell Vogt]

We want to put them in trauma.

[William Wan]

And that phrase, I've talked to so many. I've talked to dozens of federal workers. Everybody knows that quote, because it feels like that is part of the point. It's not just about budgets, and it's not just about budget cuts. It seems like, to their minds, a lot of these federal workers, cruelty is part of the plan of how they're carrying it out.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Yeah. It struck me in reading your excellent story that a lot of people go into public service because they do feel like they're working towards a greater good, like they're giving back. They could make more money in the private sector, probably. But then to have Trump and people in his administration say that, you know, federal workers are destroying the country or really speak at them in such negative terms has to make them question kind of their worth.

[William Wan]

Yeah. I think there's, you know, people take jobs for many reasons. And so I think a lot of people look to government jobs for, specifically for, like, stability, job security. But I don't think it's naive or too idealistic to say a lot of people in the federal government actually think they're making a difference. That's why they do it. They want to serve the public or serve other people. This service mindset, a lot of them, honestly, could be making a lot more in the private sector. And so to have that question, there are these quotes from Trump when he's describing federal workers that. But he literally comes out and says, I think some of these people are destroying our government. They're corrupt, inept, lazy. We're removing all of the unnecessary, incompetent and corrupt bureaucrats from the federal workforce. That's what we're doing. So to have your whole ethic and reason for being, reason for working question, I think it's not just like an insult, it's like a questioning of is this all worth it? Am I doing the right thing? Why do I work? Why do I exist? There's a lot of existential angst that comes with it.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Yeah, I mean, William, and something that really struck me when I was reading your story is I'm also someone who has struggled with depression my whole life. And some of the hardest mental health challenges I've faced have been related to work. Because for a lot of people, work is your identity and work gives your life purpose. And it sounds like that was the case for Caitlin in this recent job that she had. When you talked to other people for this story, did you also find that to be the case?

[William Wan]

Very much so. I mean, you know, America is a very work oriented Washington D.C. especially. But like, I'll give you an example. Like I talked to a person working for Veteran Affairs. There's a very specific type of person who goes to work for va. You are often a former, you know, you're a veteran yourself. You want to help other people who have been through the crap you have been through, who know that. This manager, she had just been forced to fire all of these probationary workers. And she told me like she had just, she kept having emergency meeting after emergency meeting with her psychiatrist to like upper dosage of anti anxiety pills to the point where she was like tripling her her medication. And she said like, don't people understand? Like we're real people going through this, we're not just like numbers on a spreadsheet. Yeah, I think like a lot of people in federal government, it brings up a lot of questions and it brings up a lot of their identity of like they see themselves as this person. If you're a health researcher, you do that for a specific reason. If you're in va, if you're working in research and nih. I talked to one manager in National Institutes of Health who put it so succinctly. She had taken that job not just to help others, but also because she had struggled with bipolar disorder that was in her family for generations. And she specifically sought out a government job to make a difference and also because it brought stability to her life. And she was telling me how the suicidal thoughts had come back in full force after years of having it, thinking she had overcome that already. And in the middle of all this worrying about her job, worrying about return to office, like I think it was 200 miles away from where her family was, just all of these crazy life situations the Trump administration was bringing in she was saying that she was trying to. She had to come up with a safety plan with her husband. No medications in their house, no guns. Putting her psychiatrist and her family on speed dial so that if the suicidal impulse came, she could immediately call them.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Yeah.

[William Wan]

And so she was telling them, like, I don't think people understand. Like, we are people with families who are hurting and in the worst case, dying. Like, why doesn't anyone care?

[Colby Ikowicz]

And someone like her who knows what steps to put in place, because they've had the experience. But in your story, you also said that there's some people that are experiencing suicidal thoughts and panic attacks for the first time, right?

[William Wan]

For the first time, yeah. I talked to one National Park Service worker who, on the day he was fired, was driving home, had never struggled with mental health, never seen a therapist, never been on any medication. On the way home in this rural part of Montana, passed by the only bridge in his town and stopped and found himself struggling for the first time with this thought, like, of killing himself. He called a friend, a former boss of his, who rushed to the bridge to be with him, that he didn't carry it out. And I think a lot of people are finding themselves in these very new situations in which they don't know it's quite serious and dangerous for them. They have never experienced before and are struggling to figure a way out.

[Colby Ikowicz]

And with mental health, like all of these federal workers that are being affected, but there's also the ripple effect, right, because they have families, they have spouses, they have children. How. How are Caitlin's husband and her children kind of making sense of it. How are they doing today?

[William Wan]

I think they're doing the best they can under all, you know, all things considered. One thing Mike's been doing a lot is reading the messages on Caitlin's memorial page. And he said it's been helping him just to read all the stories people have of her, their appreciation of her, even people that only kind of glancingly knew her.

[Mike Cross Barnett]

Here's just one of hundreds. I was very privileged to work with Caitlin at CMMI on the maternal opioid model. Caitlin has been in my thoughts since I heard of her passing. She was so brilliant and so generous with her knowledge. Caitlin was also spectacularly warm and kind. One day, I mentioned to her that I wanted to crochet a hat for my cousin's baby. The next morning when I got to work, I found many spools of beautiful red yarn sitting on my desk and a note saying that in lieu of payment, I can make a donation to Planned Parenthood. Her passing is such a loss, but she truly made such an impact. Thinking of Caitlin inspires one to do good, work hard and be kind. I am holding your family in the light. That line thinking of Caitlin inspires one to do good, work hard and be kind is an incredibly succinct way of saying everything I've been saying and thinking about Caitlin today and for the last three months.

[Colby Ikowicz]

So, William, you've been covering mental health here at the Post for years, and after the break, I want to spend some time reflecting on that coverage with you.

[William Wan]

That'd be great.

[Colby Ikowicz]

We'll be right back.

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[Russell Vogt]

Health reporter for the Washington Post. My job is to cover public health, and that means I'm writing about infectious disease threats like Covid mpox and bird flu. And I'm also holding the federal government and state government officials accountable for how they respond to these disease threats. So when we write about public health issues, we want to serve our readers by going deep into the science and by making sure that what they're reading is authoritative information that's been vetted by experts and written by people who've covered these issues for years. We want to empower people to live their best lives and to protect themselves and their loved ones. And that's what subscriber supported work does, is that it Gives me the time and resources to really spend a story. When you subscribe to the Washington Post, you support this kind of journalism and the people behind it. I'm Fennet Neerpil, and I'm one of the people behind the Post.

[Colby Ikowicz]

So, William, like I said, I've been such a fan of your work and I've read every story you've written over the past few years on mental health. And I'm curious because there was a period of time a couple years ago when I was writing a lot about mental health as well. Not to the depth that you do, but what made you interested in that As a beat?

[William Wan]

I was a health reporter in. I started covering health in 2018, 2019. And I remember it was in a pretty dark period of my life as well. And I remember sitting down and really thinking about, if I'm going to cover health and science, is there a facet of it that other people aren't covering? Is there a way that I could actually contribute something and make a difference to it? And the thing that occurred to me is like, oh, you know, if nothing else in your life, you know a lot about suffering. Like, you know, pain and suffering. I. I'm a son of a minister, and some of my earliest childhood memories are following my dad as a kid to hospitals, to the homes of people who are on their deathbed and watching him tend to them and their family. And so I thought, wow, this is like something. Mental health is so undercovered and almost treated as a vestige or appendage to medical system. And so I was like, I told myself, you know, this is something you know and can write about. And that's when I kind of started writing about suicide, the lack of access to therapy in our country, how like, broken and underfunded all of mental health infrastructure is in America. And it has been just this beautiful gift in my life. I have to say, like, one of the things I've learned so many lessons in writing about it, and one of the key ones, like we were talking about Mike, Mike and his father, family and Caitlin, is that in pain and suffering, there's like so much beauty and so much wisdom and especially so much power. Like, there's this power to change the world that can come from pain and the power to change yourself in going through pain. And it's been such a gift to me to be able to write about it.

[Colby Ikowicz]

William, you've had some, like, outcomes come from your reporting. Can you talk about. I'm thinking of Yale University in particular. Can you talk about that story? And what happened because of the reporting that you did?

[William Wan]

Yeah, I got a tip. This is two years ago about students at Yale being forced out of the university when they showed signs of mental health struggles, any struggle with suicide. They were, like, very strongly urged to leave. And then they would have to reapply, like new application, essay letters of reference, had to take courses to prove their intellectual strength, and even at some point, had to pay, like, an application fee to get back in the university that they were already in. And so this was causing students to hide their mental health problems instead of come out with it and get help. And so I did this story that was part investigative and part narrative, where we just followed the journey of one student who had gotten kicked out and was trying her best to get back in after a suicide attempt. And it led to this incredible change. People had known about this policy and written about it for 20 to 30 years. But this one story, both chronicling this one student and many students stories, all packed into one thing, it led to the university getting flooded with alumni and students and people on their board and the Yale University president had to come out with this letter that both condemned our story, but also said at the same time, you know, the university is going to change a whole bunch of things. They're going to add a new counseling center, add many more therapists. And it led to a class action lawsuit and even congressional calls for investigation. And in the end, Yale literally changed every single problem and policy that we laid out in our story. And it was this really gratifying, like, in pursuing things that you think are right and trying your best and caring, you can, like, change the world sometimes in these little ways.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Yeah. William, there's one story that you wrote, and correct me on the details, but I remember I was reading it in my car. I think I was a new mom. And it was about. It was a father's perspective. His son had died by suicide. And you had a detail in there about how they had a mold. He had had a mold made of his son's hand so that he could still hold his son's hand. And I sat in my car and sobbed. And I've just. That detail has stuck with me all these years.

[William Wan]

I didn't even remember that detail. Yeah, that's right.

[Colby Ikowicz]

I just. Again, I think just as a mom and thinking about holding your child's hand, and I think of myself sobbing in the car, and I wonder, how do you protect your own mental health when you're dealing with some of the hardest moments of other people's lives and dealing with these devastating details.

[William Wan]

I think that I often put work first, like, above everything else, to my detriment. And I think I've learned over the last few years to really pace myself. And the way I do that is this thing. I trick myself because I care about other people. I tell myself, if you are going to help people over the long term, you have to protect your body. Almost like my body is a tool and a machine. And in order to help people, I have to, like, keep that machine oiled so it can keep helping people. And so as long as I tell myself I'm not doing it for myself, I actually will take time off and be a person, a real human. My wife makes fun of me and says, wow, sometimes you can be an actual human being, relax and stuff. But there are other tricks, too, like pacing yourself. I try really hard to celebrate victories when they happen, even the smallest ones. Because if you wait for the big victory, it could be months, it could be years sometimes. And then one really key thing is I have, like, crew. Like, I have friends that I can call anytime and talk about, whatever, including, like, sometimes after a really hard interview, I just need to talk about, like, Grey's Anatomy for, like, an hour with a friend or gossip or do other things. And so I have friends for that. And then I have my kids. And so I often think of those people on the Tour de France where there's one single rider, but, like, behind them, there's actually, like, an entire van. And you have to. The harder your stories get, the better your van and your crew and your whole setup needs to be. And your whole mindset needs to be. So I've gotten much better at that. And in talking to, like, all of these experts, like, I actually learn a lot of, like, I was not that open to therapy, I have to admit, before I started covering mental health. And I now see how valuable a lot of that is and a lot of these practices are.

[Colby Ikowicz]

William, thank you so much for not only being here, but for all the work you've done on this subject.

[William Wan]

That's great. This is one of the best interviews ahead.

[Colby Ikowicz]

Thank you. Thanks, William. William Wan is an investigative reporter for the Post focused on health. If you or a loved one is struggling, please call the suicide and crisis lifeline at 9. 8, 8. That's it for post Reports. Thanks for listening. This episode was produced by Rennie Starnowski. It was edited by Maggie Penman. It was mixed by Shawn Carter. Thank you to David Fallis and Karen Pensiero. If you have an investigative story for William about health. You can send him a tip@william wan. That's w a nashpost.com I'm Colby Ikowicz. Have a great rest of your weekend, and we'll be back on Monday with more stories from the Washington Post.

[Hannah Jewell]

There's an efficient way to get caught up on a lot of news. It's called the seven from the Washington Post. It's a newsletter and podcast. Whether you're reading or hit play, you get seven stories you need to know, and you can consume it all in just a few minutes. The 7 is out every weekday morning by 7:00am Eastern. I'm Hannah Jewell. I'm one of the writers and I host the show Find the seven Podcast wherever you're listening. The newsletter link is waiting for you in the show notes.