Post Reports – Episode Summary: "What ‘Conclave’ Gets Right About Choosing the Next Pope"
Release Date: May 6, 2025
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi
In this insightful episode of Post Reports, hosted by Colby Ichowitz from The Washington Post, the conversation centers around the recent passing of Pope Francis and the ensuing conclave to select his successor. The discussion delves into the portrayal of the papal selection process in the movie "Conclave", examining its accuracy, cultural impact, and the broader implications on religious and political power dynamics within the Catholic Church.
Introduction to "Conclave" and the Real Conclave Process
Colby Ichowitz begins by sharing a personal anecdote about watching the movie "Conclave" with her husband following the death of Pope Francis, highlighting the movie’s influence on public understanding of the papal selection process.
Shane O'Neill, a style reporter for The Washington Post, elaborates on the movie, noting its appeal among his friends and its detailed depiction of the conclave:
"Everything you'd want in a juicy episodic story is kind of packed into the movie 'Conclave' and to some extent, the actual conclave." ([00:28])
Colby sets the stage for the episode:
"Today, before the real conclave begins Wednesday, I talk with Shane about what the movie version got right and wrong about the process, why it has struck such a chord with viewers, and what it says about religious and political power." ([00:42])
Plot and Accuracy of the Movie "Conclave"
Shane provides a synopsis of "Conclave", a fictional portrayal of the papal selection process starring Ralph Fiennes. He describes the movie's depiction of cardinals from diverse backgrounds isolated within the Vatican, engaging in intricate political and ideological maneuvering to elect a new pope.
"The position of Archbishop of Kabul, but he's Mexican. And the movie is about the machinations that happen during this conclave when they are cut off from the rest of the world." ([03:23])
Colby inquires about the sources of accuracy in the movie, to which Shane responds:
"A lot of this is based on people who had talked to cardinals who had been there. And then, you know, there's just a massive amount of Catholic scholarship about this." ([04:15])
Shane emphasizes that while the movie strives for realism, it inevitably incorporates fictional elements:
"He tried to make his book as realistic as possible, but it's still a novel. It's still a work of fiction, and they don't get every single thing right." ([04:53])
Depiction of the Voting Process
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the conclave's voting mechanics. Shane highlights the movie's faithful representation:
"They got the voting process fully accurate. People said, like, oh, they nailed it. And the voting process is very specific and very arcane." ([07:05])
He details the traditional procedure:
- Each cardinal writes their vote on a paper ballot.
- Recitation of an oath in Latin.
- Submission and burning of ballots with chemicals indicating the election status.
Colby probes into the portrayal of internal politics within the conclave, observing similarities to political campaigns.
Shane acknowledges some accuracy but notes embellishments for dramatic effect:
"It's expressly forbidden to campaign. So while there is politics and, you know, like any sort of important job like this, people are sort of angling and maneuvering. It has to be really discreet." ([08:25])
He clarifies that much of the overt political maneuvering occurs before the conclave, during the general congregation.
Ideological Factions and Potential Candidates
The conversation shifts to the ideological divisions depicted in the movie and how they mirror real-world scenarios. Shane identifies key players in the upcoming conclave:
- Cardinal Pietro Parolin – Secretary of State of Vatican City, viewed as a pragmatic, business-as-usual candidate.
- Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle – From the Philippines, seen as a liberal reformer aligned with Pope Francis's style.
- Fridolin Ambongo Busungu – From the Democratic Republic of Congo, representing the conservative wing and a potential first Black pope.
"You do have these different cardinals representing different factions, and we're seeing that play out this time around." ([12:04])
Public and Critical Reception of "Conclave"
Colby inquires about the movie's resurgence following Pope Francis's death. Shane explains that "Conclave" experienced a significant viewership spike after being made available on Amazon's Prime Video:
"Viewership of the movie had increased 3200%... it's on a lot of people's minds. I don't mean to be crass, but, like, the timing is really good for this movie." ([16:01])
This surge is attributed to heightened public interest in the Vatican's inner workings and the symbolic power of the papacy.
The Pope as a Cultural and Political Symbol
Exploring why the papacy captivates audiences, Shane discusses the blend of pageantry, mystery, and global influence:
"There's a lot of pageantry... there's a lot of visual interest... there's an element of mystery and curiosity about what the heck is going on in a Catholic ceremony." ([17:27])
He further notes the Pope's significant global authority and celebrity status:
"What this person says is really important... that's a heady combination of all of those things." ([17:27])
Impact of External Political Figures and Authoritarianism
Colby brings up a recent instance where former President Donald Trump posted a photo of himself as the Pope, questioning his potential influence in the conclave.
Shane dismisses the possibility of Trump being a pope, citing canonical requirements:
"Donald Trump cannot be pope. To be a pope, you have to be Catholic and male. You have to have been baptized in the Catholic Church." ([19:34])
However, he acknowledges that such actions reflect broader discussions within the conclave, particularly the rise of authoritarianism:
"The rise of authoritarianism is something that is going to be talked about a lot among this conclave, especially among European cardinals." ([20:52])
Additionally, Shane touches on the influence of soft power and dark money campaigns targeting papal candidates, drawing parallels to political campaigning:
"It does sound an awful lot like the dark money that you see in politics." ([22:05])
Themes of Political and Religious Power in "Conclave"
Concluding the discussion, Shane reflects on the movie's portrayal of the conclave as a microcosm of powerful institutions:
"The Vatican functions like lots of other powerful institutions... it's made up of human beings. And that can be for better or for worse." ([22:52])
He emphasizes that "Conclave" effectively illustrates the intersection of politics, personal relationships, and institutional dynamics within the Church.
Conclusion
This episode of Post Reports offers a comprehensive exploration of the intersection between Hollywood portrayals and real-life religious processes. By dissecting "Conclave", Colby Ichowitz and Shane O'Neill provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the conclave's complexities, the ideological factions at play, and the broader implications on global religious and political landscapes.
Notable Quotes:
- Shane O'Neill ([07:05]): "They got the voting process fully accurate... very specific and very arcane."
- Shane O'Neill ([08:25]): "It's expressly forbidden to campaign... it has to be really discreet."
- Shane O'Neill ([17:27]): "There's an element of mystery and curiosity about what the heck is going on in a Catholic ceremony."
- Shane O'Neill ([20:52]): "The rise of authoritarianism is something that is going to be talked about a lot among this conclave."
- Shane O'Neill ([22:52]): "The Vatican functions like lots of other powerful institutions... it's made up of human beings."
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